Over the last 5 years, I had written many times regarding degree recognition, quality of medical educations and pathways to specialisation. Unfortunately, I get asked these questions again and again from budding doctors as well as parents. Sometimes, I wonder whether our society even reads or does any research before asking these questions. Sometimes I do get irritated and thus some sarcastic remarks had to be made! I felt I should write these issues once again for the last time!
As I have said many times before, medicine is rather unique in the sense that just because you have a MBBS/MD degree, it does NOT mean you can work anywhere in this world. Every country has their own way of recognising medical degrees. IF your degree is NOT recognised by the medical council of the respective country, you will NOT be able to work in that particular country, as a doctor. You need to sit and pass their entrance exam conducted by their medical council in order to be eligible to be registered. However, eligibility of registration is NOT equal to getting an employment. Also please do not forget that these entrance exams are NOT cheap and not easy either. Despite spending huge amount of money, you may end up going nowhere. That’s the reason I keep saying that if you intend to migrate, never do medicine!
UK has the PLAB exams for those who graduate from any university outside UK, Australia has AMC exams and US has USMLE exams (which all their graduates need to sit). Unfortunately, to get a job in UK is becoming almost impossible due to their immigration laws where their citizens and EU citizens are given priority. You will be at the bottom of the list. Even if you do your degree in Newcastle Malaysia, the same rule applies except the fact you do not need to sit for PLAB exams. If you do not get internship in UK, you will not get GMC registration. FYI, UK is having the same problem as Australia in the number of internship post. Both these countries are only able to provide internship to those who graduated from their own local universities. I know quite a number of Malaysians who had passed AMC exams but yet to get a placement in Australia. In US, the situation does not look that rosy either. A recent report suggest that for the first time, there are more applicants than post for residency training. Thus, even their own graduates are unable to get residency post of their choice and need to wait for next year’s intake. Your chances may be better if you choose the non-popular residency post. Meanwhile, Ireland Medical Council has now recognised housemanship training in Malaysia. You are eligible for general registration after housemanship completion in Malaysia without the need to sit for PRES examination. However, I am not sure whether your undergraduate degree have any role to play. Unfortunately, Ireland is not the best place to work currently due to their economic situation. As for Malaysian degrees, only UM/UKM is recognised in Singapore and Monash in Australia/NZ.
The situation in Malaysia is not that great either. I first started to write about possible over-supply of doctors almost 10 years ago when they started to approve too many medical schools (33 in total with 36 medical programs at least). Many were in denial including our politicians, MOH and MMA. I was labelled with all kind of nasty name calling. Fortunately, as I predicted the problem has now surfaced publicly. In 2011, after much denial, the government issued a moratorium for new medical schools. At the same time, MMC came up with the Minimum Entry Criteria. While I disagree that SPM should be used as the main criteria, MMC had no choice as in the name of education hub, we have just too many Pre-U courses conducted by various colleges. I still feel that MMC should only allow medical school entry based on well established Pre-U courses like STPM, Matriculation, A -level, IB etc. I strongly do not agree that Foundation courses should be used as the Pre-U entry course. It is not a standardised exam as it is conducted and marked by the respective colleges. I have heard enough stories!
MMC has also made it very clear that those who go to unrecognised medical colleges overseas without minimum entry qualifications will NOT be able to sit for MQE exams. So, for those who are doing medicine in unrecognised universities without minimum qualifications, please look at other options. Please be also warned that MQA accreditation is NOT the same as MMC accreditation. For medicine, only MMC accreditation matters. 2 years ago, I remember of students being offered scholarship to do medicine in CUBA. This is despite the fact that none of the degree from Cuba is recognised by MMC but many were not aware. Recently, it appeared in the news. Students who had graduated and returned to the country last month are now required to sit and pass the MQE examinations. IN response, MMC said that they are reviewing ALL recognised medical schools and may reduce the numbers further (see below).
With the mushrooming of medical schools (the highest per capita population in the world), quality became an issue. Recently, MMA president claimed that close to 20% of medical graduates do not have enough qualifications to do medicine. He was referring to many graduates from overseas universities especially from Russia, Indonesia, Egypt etc. I had written about this before especially over HERE. However, local university graduates are not that great either. Many of the medical schools do not have enough academics and dependent on foreigners from Myanmar, India etc. I am not saying that they are not good but the health care system in those countries are different from ours. The very fact that we are dependent on foreign academics tells us that we are NOT ready to have so many medical schools, in the first place. Despite low number of academics, the medical school need to take at least 100-150 students to make profit and get their return of investment. That was the reason why MMC came up with the criteria, as many of them were taking students with low quality by using their own foundation programs. The quality of training after graduation is another issue all together which I had written many times before. The shift system with poor supervision has made it go from bad to worst! We are going to be seeing a lot of THIS type of stories soon!
With the introduction of the minimum criteria, many private medical colleges started to find it difficult to recruit enough students since 2011. This is causing financial problems for some medical colleges. JPA has also stopped sponsoring students for medicine over the last 2 years. First they stopped sponsoring students overseas except for the top 50 students or so. Recently, I heard, JPA has also stopped sending students for medicine to some if not all the private medical schools. Even for public universities, JPA is no more a guaranteed scholarship. I was informed that as of last year, there are NO MORE JPA sponsored students in PMC. This has reduced their intake for this year to only 65 students! This has also prompted the university to reduce their entry requirement (ATAR 80 for 6 years program), including taking UEC students and recruiting foreign students from middle east countries. If not, they will not be able to survive. Ironically, MARA is still sponsoring students for medical studies both locally and overseas! So far, I have not heard of any instruction from MOE to reduce the intake of medical students into private medical schools. However, I feel some of these schools may undergo a slow death like what is happening to THIS college. I heard this college is working out some agreement with CUCMS. However, I find it interesting that based on the latest MMC LIST, CUCMS only recognised till 12/2012 with extension to 2015? . It is rather confusing.
MOH is also finding it difficult to accommodate housemanship posting for graduates. I heard local public university graduates had to wait close to 3 months for appointments (use to be only 1 month). Private universities seem to be taking longer. I heard some PMC students who graduated in May 2014 with interview conducted in the university itself , are yet to be posted for housemanship. Some are getting the posting for October intake and some may still need to wait longer. So, the waiting list is getting longer. I heard some MARA sponsored students have applied for housemanship in Ireland and manage to get it. Remember, 50% of the 33 medical schools will only start to produce their graduates starting from this year till 2016. So, what the situation will be like, by 2016?
I have a feeling that MMC/MOH may not have any choice but to introduce some sort of entry or exit exams. Even the MO post are becoming full and many are being posted to East Malaysia. Klinik Kesihatans are being filled to the brink with some small KKs in a rural districts have close to 9-10 MOs now!
Finally, if your degree is NOT recognised in another country, you will not be able to do your postgraduate degree/specialist training overseas. This is because, you will not be able to get a job. Specialist training in medicine is FULL TIME working and PART TIME studying. I get asked this question repeatedly! However, you can go for a short attachment on temporary registration, for training purposes. Generally, no salary will be paid for such attachments. If you have MRCP/MRCS/MRCOG etc, you may be able to get a job in Singapore as a MO/registra.
MMC to review all foreign medical schools
Posted on 17 September 2014 – 09:32pm
Karen Arukesamy
newsdesk@thesundaily.com
PETALING JAYA: The Malaysian Medical Council (MMC) is reviewing the accreditation of all foreign medical schools with a view to reducing the number of such recognised overseas institutions.
Director-General of Health Datuk Dr Noor Hisham Abdullah, who is also MMC chairman, said the council is not recognising more foreign medical schools.
“We are cutting the number of recognised universities abroad,” he said when asked to comment on theSun’s page one report today highlighting the plight of medical graduates from a Cuban scholarship programme whose degrees have not been recognised.
“Many universities, including from Australia, have applied for recognition but we are not considering at the moment,” he told theSun today.
According to the MMC website, aside from 29 Malaysian medical schools which are accredited, MMC has recognised medical degrees from 375 overseas medical schools in 34 countries, including Myanmar, Czech Republic, Sri Lanka, Iraq, Russia and Ukraine.
While he declined comment as to why MMC had yet to respond to Cuba’s application for recognition for its medical programmes since 2007, Noor Hisham said medical graduates from Cuba will have to sit for the Medical Qualifying Examination (MQE).
Four students from the first batch of Malaysians sent there in 2007 under a Cuban scholarship programme who returned here on Sept 4, have been told to enrol for a six-month course which costs RM25,000 in a local universities, prior to sitting for the MQE.
However, there is no guarantee that the local universities will accept these students for the programme, without which they cannot sit for MQE.
Meanwhile, Health Minister Datuk Dr S. Subramaniam said the ministry has also frozen all new applications to set up private medical colleges in the country as there are many recognised medical colleges for Malaysians.
An MMC source said it had stopped accepting new applications for medical universities since the beginning of 2013.
As to the recognition of Cuban medical degrees in Malaysia, Subramaniam said if there is an update, the ministry would notify the Cuban embassy.
Pagalavan's Avatar 
First of all, entry exam for housemenship do come with loopholes such as unlimited exam retake if one failed.
Filter out and derecognise those dubious medical school is still the best option especially Russia, Indonesia and Egypt.
I am a registrar, I seen how my fellow ukm housemen perform. I also seen how a graduated Medical officer perform. One word to describe those Russian graduated, utterly rubbish.
This Russian Graduate not only tarnish the profession of doctors but also licensed to kill.
dear lobak,
please dont generalised all of ’em are rubbish and none of the ipta are so.
i have seen ipta or ipts students whom only pass borderline score and become a doctor. what is the sense only looking at the spm , stpm or matriculation grades but these students (not majority) always under-perform.
i strongly suggest for the implementation of entry exam for housemanship or better said as malaysian medical licensure exam.
i wonder why our moh or mmc still waiting to implement this…
Hi, you are just seeing some bad apples in your practice. I’m a Registrar too, there are still good Russian, Indonesian and Egypt grads also.
This post needs to be pinned. Or “compulsory reading”.
With regards to the Irish Medical Council recognising housemanship in Malaysia, please understand the probable reason why they are recognising it out of the blues. The local Irish graduates are leaving the country in huge numbers, mostly to Australia, UK, North America and even the Malaysians working there have left in huge numbers in recent years due to very poor working condition. That is why even now Sudanese and Pakistani internships are being accepted. Soon, Indian internship would be on the cards.
Bear in mind this may be a short term measure only to cope up with the huge lossese of their own graduates. Even if one was able to work in Ireland despite having completed internship overseas, most likely they would only be given service jobs only, not training jobs.
yes, indeed
Dear Pagalavan,
I know this is out of topic but your post previously about Visiting Consultants not being allowed to admit patients in private hospitals had generated a lot of concern, but the MMA leadership currently have decided not to take it up wth MOH as a matter of defending the practising rights of private Drs nationwide who are doing visiting work.
I wonder whether you would take up the issue as I think this is another curb of the many possible limitations on the rights of Drs nationwide to be able to practice freely.
Regards,
John Teo
I think the best avenue to fight this will be via the Association of private hospitals. I heard that Pantai and KPJ has also received similar directions. They are also arguing with MOH. As fo rmy hospital, our central management have had meeting with MOH, so far they have agreed to our explanation. I think they are going case by case.
Damn it, we are in dire need of medical licensing exam for medical undergraduates who intended to work in Malaysia, no matter where they graduate from. And, maximum 3 tries. Why wait? Must be political/bureaucratic issues
This is what I wrote to MMA,
I am writing with regards to the new Ministry ruling regarding the rule of not allowing Visiting consultants to admit patients to hospitals when there are no resident consultants.
There is various feedbacks from members that such a blanket ruling may not be appropriate for the following reasons:
1) If the ruling is because of patient safety issues, it may be applicable to certain visiting consultants practice but certainly not to all visiting consultants as individual practice differs and a blanket ruling applicable to all doesn’t seems to be fair.
There are visiting consultants whose clinics are just besides the hospital. and who are known to be in the hospitals even more than resident consultants at times.
Trying to differentiate safety issues based on status would be the same as trying to differentiate ability based on gender for example.
A better way to deal with the problem would be to deal with individual cases if there are safety concerns by the Hospital concerned, Ministry or even MMC.
2) If the multiple place of practice is allowed by Law as of now whereby the Medical Act doesn’t stipulate one person can only practice in one place and this even extends to Govt Drs when they do visiting work in other Govt hospitals or private, then would not it be a contradiction that the Law allow such a practice but the Ministry doesn’t allow?
3) If a certain specialist is accredited by the National Specialist register to be. urologist for example, then why can’t he admit and operate on his or her patients in Accredited Private Hospitals with accredited OT and staff regardless of whether there are Resident Consultants or not as he or she is ultimately responsible for their own patients and there are enough law and regulations governing patient safety not to mention the threat of legal suit towards the Dr should any thing untoward happens. There doesn’t seems to be any need for extra restrictions.
4) Govt Drs routinely do Visiting out station visits and operations in smaller govt hospitals because there are no such specialist available such as Urology, ophthalmology , surgeons etc… Are all these practices suppose to stop in view of this ruling or can they still continue in Govt but only Not allowed in Private sector? Is it because when a specialist enters the Private sector, he or she then lose those ability?
5) There are a lot of Drs practicing in such a way in the private as well as Govt sector and this ruling will have widespread effect to the livelihood as well the professional rights to practice for many Drs nationwide.
I appeal and I urge MMA to seek further clarification and perhaps to have a dialogue with MOH as soon as possible as MMA needs to take this issue seriously and tackle it speedily if it were to be seen as an association for all Drs.
Have MMA given you you a feedback. I will try to contact the President.
Basically, MOH is now putting the burden on the hospital. If anything happens, they will reprimand the hospital.
Maybe you can bring this point up in the association of Hospitals as I am fighting nail and tooth in the MMA but to not much avail. Thank you for your time.
All these visiting not allowed to admit patients are just some of the gimmick trade secrets by insurance company.
Hi Dr, wish you’re having a great day.
As according to the list of recognized med schools on mmc website, MSU and MAHSA are recognized. If one completed his/her mbbs in one of these med school, he/she will be able to work as doctor in Malaysia? Do you have any idea about the recognition of CUCMS? Since MSU and MAHSA have produced their graduates, what is your opinion about their performances? How will you rate these three med schools ?
And Unikl 🙂
I have not heard any issues so far regarding MSU and MAHSA graduates. BTW MAHSA first batch just graduated this year and MSU last year. So, still too early to say anything.
I am still confused about the CUCMS recognition from MMC website.
How about CUCMS and UNIKL? Do you think these two med schools are considered as good choices for those who intend to pursue medicine?
UniKL was Royal Medical college of Perak. I am still not sure of the status of CUCMS.
Hi Dr.Paga, this might be out of the current topic. I’m a doctor & am interested in medical law. What are the courses available? I’m based in Singapore and would like to persue a degree which is recognised in both Msia and Singapore. What are my options after graduating & the career path that I can take? Thanks in advance!
I feel you need to do law if you intend to practise as a full time medical lawyer. There are some courses offered at UIA and UKM, if I am not mistaken for medical law. If you do not have a proper law degree than you will just end up as advisor for medico legal cases.
Greetings Dr, if I may enquire about Aviation Medicine in Malaysia. I’m a medicall officer in Medical Dept Gov Hosp currently interested in this particular field. Would be helpful to outline the career path. Is it feasible in Malaysia? How and current prospects? Long term benefits and those sorts. Deeply appreciate it. Thank you.
Unless you intend to work for International SOS etc which runs evacuation services, there is no other role for it.
Honestly Being a Medical Officer with government setting, I seriously feel the government should de-recognize Russian and Ukraine unis. These graduates lack proper foundation and are easily outperformed by graduates from IMU and Melaka Manipal whom i think are excellent. Many from this 2 unis are my HOs and they are doing really well. Russian graduates on other hand seem to be struggling. Worst, some are MIA during work leaving other working comrades in jeopardy. This hasn’t happened once, but many times at work. I have also caught a few Russian graduates ( whom are senior HOs illegally doing locum in the clinic i’ve been doing locum. I have no qualms them doing locum but they lied to me saying they were unwell and i caught them red handed in another clinic..doing locum !! That’s something i can’t digest ! I m written to the papers and online but everything seems to be futile. Please, we need responsible doctors.. not a bunch of liars !
Nothing new, They (the Russian/Ukrainian graduates) have been scamming everyone for AGES and brace yourself, worst is still yet to working
Hopefully, MMC will introduce a common exam asap
Good morning sir. I am an stpm student and I’m not really sure whether to apply to study medicine abroad or locally. I would like to migrate someday but I want to secure myself in my home country as well. As I have heard students who study abroad have to wait for posting longer than local and private university graduates, and as mentioned in the article, UK will not accept international students.Even when I asked a representative from Newcastle university Johor, he mentioned that it is quite unlikely that UK will allow international medical students to do their internship in the UK and will have to come back here. Your advice as to where would be best to study medicine would be deeply appreciated. Thank you sir.
if you bother reading the comments in the previous posts, you would have realised the answer to your dilemma is ‘do not study medicine if you are planning to migrate!’ Like seriously the whole point of this blogpost in my opinion is to stop people like you from keeping on asking the same questions over and over again.
I think I have answered this question many times in my blog. Please spend some time to read all the post under For future doctors page.
If your intention is to migrate, don’t waste your money doing medicine in this country. Go and do medicine in the country where you intend to migrate.
[…] « For Future Doctors: Of Recognition, Employment & Quality…………….. […]
Great post ! But so many statements are heard from somebody, kinda difficult to trust fully
Hello sir, really appreciate your contribution for those who are not aware of their future in malaysia n hving mbbs degree from unrecognised college. What I wanna ask is hw much does it probably cost to sit for MQE in University sabah malaysia n the passing rate as well as hw long the whole process may take..? Really keen to know.. ? ?
I am not sure of the cost as it is supposed to be paid to the respective colleges. Usually, there will be 6 months attachment before sitting for the exam. How long it will take depends on how fast you pass the exam. Passing rate varies.
Tnxx.. n what should be the better option, private or public colleges.. ? I heard private colleges will just let u pass easily, is that true ?
Yes, one of the private college did and MMC reprimanded them
Tnxx ,n will one be allowed to do postgraduation in Malaysia after passing MQE n doing horsemanship. .? Sorry 4 asking too many questions. .
Yes
The UK is currently trying to reduce immigration and the Home Secretary has recently raised proposals to make non-EU students leave the UK prior to applying for work visas:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/foreign-students-could-be-sent-home-before-applying-for-work-visas-to-cut-immigration-9938145.html
Waiting to hear about further developments, particularly for FYP.
[…] intention to migrate with an unrecognised degree obtained locally. Please spend some time reading THIS and THIS blog entry. All the answers are there. I just received the following email from an Indian […]
Hi dr,
if mmc has stopped new application for new private medical school why new private medical uni such as AUCMS, AIMST, LINCOLN, etc.. existed?
The moratorium only started after 2011. These medical schools were approved before that.
Hi, just wanted to know if there is any news about the cuban degrees here in Malaysia? Still not recognize?
As far as I know: still NOT recognised . You can check for yourself at MMC website
It is not in the 2nd Schedule, and I don’t think it will ever get in, the MMC is in cutting mood, NOT adding. We don’t need any more doctors, for the moment.
Greetings . Dear Dr, from your opinion which one is better for me to further my study , either private uni in Malaysia (msu) or University in Egypt (mansoura) . Is there any advantages for local rather than the overseas graduate even in the private uni?
That depends on the recognition of Egypt university. Is that university degree recognised in other countries. If not, no difference
It is well recgonised . I mean, advantages when i am applying for housemanship later. Btw tq Dr , really enjoy reading ur superb blog !
What do you mean by well recognised? Which country medical council recognises the degree?
Potential students are well advised that there is a proposal to remove the list of recognised universities and if so, all graduates of med schools outside of malaysia will need to sit for a qualifying exam before they are allowed provisional registration.
Doctor, I would like to query you regarding unis.
Which route would be better if I am aiming to work in Singapore?
1. Take matrices/Cambridge A-levels and study in UM
2. Take foundation and degree in IMU and undergo the twinning program in one of the unis recognised by SMC
Which would make me a more knowledgeable/skilled doctor and which would guarantee a secured job in SG?
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Both IMu twinning program and UM are OK but IMU twinning program may give you better option as to work in other countries as well.
No one can guarantee you a job anywhere in this world. You must realise that Singapore had launched their 3rd medical school. They may not need anymore foreigners soon.
Dear Pagalavan,
I’m looking to relocate to malaysia and i have an offer from my company, my wife had a basic medcin degres from a public university in Morocco, and we are looking for options to continue her post graduate study in Malaysia
When i check MMC website, Morocco does’t apear in the liste of recognised medical school, and I understood in this case she needs to take the Medical Qualifying Examination, then she can be enrolled in postgraduate programm local medical university
Now as she is a foreign things sems to be complex…just I want to have your view on this ,
If there any chance she can continue posgraduate speciallity in malaysia or not ? as we really want to move and work in a new env/culture…
Thank you for your help
Regards
Yassine
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The chances are very slim. Yes, she can sit for MQE but does not guarantee her a job. As for postgraduate program in local medical university, there are certain quota allocated for foreigners which you can try to apply. However, there is no guarantee that you will get a job after Master’s program and our Master’s is also not recognised elsewhere.
Thank You for this feedback
Hi, doctor. What do you think about the graduates from Monash Malaysia? Do you think that, in general, Monash Malaysia is a good medical school?
My pre-U results are good enough to qualify for any private university here (I sat for IGCSE instead of SPM, so applying for a public university is practically hopeless), and based on the research I’ve done online and after consulting my relatives and friends, I’ve concluded that Monash is the best private university for medicine in Malaysia.
However, I’d still like to know your opinion on the matter. I just want to make sure that the medical school I’ll study at will prepare me to become a skilled and competent doctor 🙂
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What are your opinions on MAHSA and MSU? Do their graduates have any issues?
So far none that I know of
What are your thoughts on UniKL RCMP? I read somewhere that they used to send their students to UK in the early 2000’s, but had stop doing so. So now, their curriculum is modelled based on University of Sheffield and UM’s medical course. Or is that only a gimmick in marketing? I’m thinking of applying to study there because the fees are quite cheap as compared to some other private universities, but then cheap does not necessarily mean quality, so that’s why I asked of this here.
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UniKL was originally Sheffield University when it first started in 1999. Than Sheffield left and taken over by Perak state government and became Royal Perak Medical College which was using UM medical curriculum. Now it is under Uni KL when UniKL bought over. I think it is UniKL medical curicullum but could be based on UM curicullum as they were using that before take over. BUT it is not UM degree.
hi doc, i just finished my foundation in science program in Asia metropolitan uni and now i am planning to pursue my MBBS degree in USU, Medan. I need your advice doc. Will i get a job here once i graduate ? s USU recognised by MMC