Well, the circus has finally ended. In my last article I wrote that something is not right about the magic number of 418. The number simply do not tally with the number of public medical schools. Following the ridiculous statement by a Deputy Education Minister, not only MMC but even MOH as well as the Minister of Education (2) came out with interesting statements denying that MOH or MOE gave any instructions to reduce intake of medical students! This is truly a Bolehland!
While MMC made a press statement saying that they never instructed the universities to reduce their intake, Minister of Education(2) said that the quota was set by MMC !! The circus was really going wild. After close to 2 weeks of entertainment, finally it is out. As I predicted, the number 418 was only the intake via UPU (STPM and Matriculation). Another 501 was taken in directly by universities via Asasi etc, making a total of 919. Another 100 intake will follow after a “directive” from cabinet. So, the total intake will be 1019. University Malaya’s intake this year was 124, out of which ONLY 50 were taken via UPU. The rest (74) were from their own asasi program.
It looks like our Ministers/Deputy Ministers simply do not know what they are talking about. Our Education Minister aka DPM says that all university graduates need to pass an English test to graduate. I wonder what MUET is for ? As far as I know, all university students will have to sit and pass MUET exams. Sometimes I wonder whether they are simply reading a script written by someone else or are they really that *****d! Unfortunately, there is no such thing as apologising or taking responsibility, among our politicians.
Personally I do not agree that public university should cut down their intake. The government should ask the private universities to reduce their intake or close down the below par universities. From the information I received, there were no such instructions given to private universities. Frankly, a private university would not be able to sustain a medical school economically if the intake is below 100-150. They will never make profit or even get their return of investment. Since the introduction of the MMC’s minimum entry requirement in 2011, the number of students enrolled into private medical schools had reduced drastically over the last 3 years.
However, there is still a question on those who go overseas for medical education without the minimum requirement. I have a strong feeling that MOH/MMC may not provide you with a job upon your return as the number of post will be limited OR there may be a common entrance exam. Let’s wait and see what happens.
The entire fiasco started due to poor planning almost 10 years ago. Now, the good students have to suffer. However, I still feel that it is not enough to reverse the situation within the next 5 years. Oversupply will happen and waiting list will have to be created. WE should also not forget that the Malaysian Healthcare system may soon undergo a major restructuring after GST is in force. Our Health Minister has already made the statement last month(see below). Once the hospitals are corporatised, jobs will never be guaranteed and it will be on contract basis!
Health services poised for radical overhaul, minister
BY AUDREY EDWARDSAUGUST 17, 2014
PETALING JAYA , AUG 17 — In what could prove to be a controversial move, the government is looking to have a mixed source of financing to merge public and private healthcare delivery services.
Health Minister Datuk Seri Dr S. Subramaniam said this would be done through a single non-profit public third party payer.
He, however, did not elaborate on the plan that was announced during his keynote address during the Apec high level meeting on health and economy in Beijing.
Dr Subramaniam said besides fostering a greater public-private partnership, the government is also drafting a health transformation agenda that took into consideration the country’s challenges and needs.
He said that in the future, the functions of the ministry would be concentrated on stewardship and policy making, governance, public health services, research and training.
“Service delivery will be devolved to enhance responsiveness and flexibility in a more competitive integrated environment,” he said in the speech.
The last time the subject of a healthcare financing scheme surfaced was more than two years ago with the proposed 1Care for 1Malaysia. The criticisms that followed saw a road-show being organised to gather public feedback to draw up a blueprint.
The idea was first mooted more than 30 years ago and there were two attempts previously, with 1Care encompassing three components: transforming service delivery, financing and organisational transformation.
However, as in the past, it was the financing bit that had people riled up although the ministry at the time insisted that nothing was cast in stone.
More recently, the ministry’s director-general Datuk Seri Dr Noor Hisham Abdullah said under Health Transformation, the concept was to strengthen existing services and integrate the public and private health sectors.
Dr Subramaniam said the ministry was reviewing the treatment fees for foreigners to eventually cover actual costs.
“This may also help shift some workload to private hospitals regarding foreign workers who have employment-based health insurance,” he said.
He said a key focus was to strengthen primary healthcare as the population and current system did not foster the development of family doctors to manage the health needs of the individual over their lifetime.
“Malaysians are more likely to go doctor-hopping and there is an over-focus on curative care,” he said.
“This situation is far less effective to tackle long-term chronic illnesses.”
Dr Subramaniam said in the future, Malaysians would have their own family doctor to manage their health needs from womb to tomb.
He said this was to manage health issues better by having a long-term relationship between the healthcare giver and recipient.
– See more at: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/health-services-poised-for-radical-overhaul-minister#sthash.fczIcESC.dpuf
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20% of Malaysian students who entered foreign universities to do medicine since 2009 did not even have the minimum academic qualifications required to enter the programmes (Source : http://www.thesundaily.my/news/1162028)
At least MMA is acknowledging the fact that there are many substandard medical students/doctors in the system. How did they obtain NOC letter by the Education Ministry to pursue medicine in questionable foreign universities?
Although they received NOC and also graduated as medical doctors from these foreign medical schools, upon application for house officer posts, MOH and MMC could have always reviewed their pre-university academic qualifications and need not necessarily need to give them jobs as house officers.
Only a naive person believe the partial story reported. All the individual paying student will not get the NOC letter when they submit their results during application, even if they are planning to go to Russia, Ukraine or whichever countries. The actual fact is that all the 20% Malaysian students are government sponsored. Will your parent pay to send you overseas to study medicine if you have poor academic qualification and even can’t meet the low academic requirement set by the Ministry?? If this news is reported in the 70s or 80s, it could be true but not for those current batch of student within the last 8 years. Your memory is short. After the recent political situation overseas, in fact last year, the government has a hard time placing those student who are affected and came back to continue their medic degree locally. Finally the thousands affected were absorbed into local IPTA and IPTS, one academic year behind what they have studied overseas.
dont be ridiculous, show your fact. government will not sponsor those who did not have the minimum requirement. those who are below requirement normally from self sponsored rich parents
“Will your parent pay to send you overseas to study medicine if you have poor academic qualification and even can’t meet the low academic requirement set by the Ministry??”
Actually, yes. Especially those who can’t get into places locally. All sponsored students are the better ones normally. Caveat: there are sponsored students who also barely make it past the MMC guidelines too.
those sponsored students who barely meet the requirements are normally from the family with strong connection to mara or jpa officers or children of embassadors, thats how they get the money. but for normal bumi students from kampong there is no way they can get the sponsorship with 5 B’s in SPM or 3.0 in matrikulasi. i believe students with functioning brain will not even apply for the scholarship if they only have the min requirements as they know the would not make it.
Sukuagain,
you raised 2 pertinent points
a) Will your parent pay to send you overseas to study medicine if you have poor academic qualification and even can’t meet the low academic requirement set by the Ministry??
b) If this news is reported in the 70s or 80s, it could be true but not for those current batch of student within the last 8 years.
For your kind information, there are quite a number of Medical Officers in the system currently (having graduated within the last 5-8 years or so) who have substandard academic qualifications. For example, there is a particular medical officer who is from SPM Arts Stream, with no science background whatsoever in pre-university level and somehow rather got a place to do medicine in one of the Eastern Europe country and another one who had D’s and E’s in STPM and went to do medicine in our neighbouring country. How were they able to do medicine? Of course, with extra payment, results can be changed with the help of agents!
And for your information, in the 70s and 80s, only the best of the best students were admitted to do medicine. That was when proper meritocracy was practised, unlike the current ”merit” based system.
It is either you are ignorant or you have a short memory.
There is no law to prevent you from going overseas if you do not have NOC.For many years, I know many students with poor SPM results going overseas to do medicine without NOC. Since there were a lot of job vacancy upon their return, no questions were asked. Of course the situation will change now.
Trust me, I have seen enough parents sending their children to India, Russia, Indonesia etc despite poor academic qualifications. I know one with 6Fs doing medicine in Ukraine 4 years ago!
Having a common entry exam to vet all unrecognised foreign degrees is an alternative and has to be made available. It can be a final year exams from one of the local public universities.
Totally agree with this article Doc. I’m one of the victim of this scenario CGPA 4.00, Band 4 for MUET and cocurriculum 94%. I was being offered degree in science instead .
It should read “foreign universities EXCLUDING those in Australia and UK…”
Unless of course the definition of “foreign universities” = universities in Russia, Egypt, Indonesia.
It should read “foreign universities EXCEPT private paying student”. No matter which country you applied, you will not get the NOC letter, especially since 2009 as reported. The exception is only Bolehland Sponsored foreign student.
sukuagain, check your fact. is is not easy to get sponsorship by the government to do medicine overseas, first you need spm results above the minimum requirement since those who have the min requirement are too many! have you checked what are the min requirements? only those rich parents would pay for this, tho their kids are below average students.
It would be interesting to find out if any medical graduate (who sat for SPM) from the UK/Australia failed to meet MMC’s minimum requirements, and thus need a NOC.
Anyone knows of anyone?
@engr, there are no “below average students” in med schools in Australia or the UK. Even a handful of those with sterling SPM and A levels results will find themselves in a bind at times, and I know of one who has to repeat a year, and that’s apparently after much convincing to the faculty board.
Like I’ve opined previously, and I reiterate here again, “overseas” need to be defined in the medical schools context.
i am sure we all know what it means when ‘foreign medical uni’ is mentioned in dr paga article or the comments here. of course if you dont have good results in A-level or IB you cant get admitted by those unis in uk or australia, just forget about MMC requirement because i think it is very loww (5Bs in SPM for sciences and mathematics courses, seriously?). therefore the 20% students who did not have the minimum requirement must be studying somewhere else and they can’t be government sponsored students as claimed in previous comments just to make malaysia student sponsorhsip system looks bad. come on, you can condemn the system, but do not fabricate story. it is just wrong!
and this is a blatant lie .. “The actual fact is that all the 20% Malaysian students are government sponsored” , comes from unfortunate upset mediocre student
NOC can be bought!
The ‘NOC’ was originally specifically meant only for 4 countries, ie Egypt, Russia, Morocco and Jordan. It has now morphed into a ‘requirement’ for all countries (JPT’s latest website).
It was never required for studies in the developed countries as their requirements are ALWAYS much higher than the minimum specified under NOC or MMC.
Nobody going to UK or Australia to study medicine ever bother with the NOC.
It appears many going to 3rd world med schools also don’t bother with the NOC. Going forward, it will be interesting to see how those who went after 2011 with less than MMC minimum, will be dealt with when they return and try to apply for provisional registration to do Housemanship.
That’s what I meant, rich people who can afford will send their children to Australia / NZ / UK or Canadian universities. If their children do not have the required academic qualification, they will not even bother to choose medicine, let alone NOC letter, as there are so many other courses and so many above average varieties of universities available for their children to enjoy. Only people like engr would dream that “if” he become rich, he will send his children to Egypt, Russia and Indonesia to eat medicine, even without NOC letter or whatsoever.
@sukuagain, grow up kiddo, i know you were upset not be able do medicine. please read here: https://pagalavan.com/2014/02/25/for-future-doctors-a-wake-up-call/
this is one of the examples of rich parents who send their kid abroad to study medicine without the min requirement. do you think government would sponsor someone like this with 7 in pendidikan moral and 6,6,7 in sciences SPM to study medicine abroad? i am sure there are many other doctors with this spm results out there practicing medicine in malaysia.
yes the super rich parents who are fortunate to have smart children send their kids abroad to study medicines in uni which tuition fees are paid in pounds or dollars, but rich ppl do send to countries like indo, egypt or ukraine, and worse some of those rich ppl only have a mediocre performance kid. too bad your are not from both groups.
when you earn few times higher than your wife who is practicing medicine in the highest GDP (PPP) per capita country, and only have to work half of the hours required by doctors, i am pretty sure i know which school to send my kid to, definitely not medicine, unless that is his interest. and yes i know medicine is not all about money
@Suku, there are thousands of weak students studying medicine in many 3rd world countries, all sponsored by FAMA scholarships. They are there because:
1. They are not able academically to enter 1st world med schools, even if they can afford to. And actually, many of them can afford. Just can’t get in.
2. These 3rd world places are ‘cheap’. Parents see that as better than sending their children to other courses in the 1st world, paying the same fees. Students living the dreams of their parents.
i cant believe ppl with the mentality like @suku stil exist, very condescending towards goverment sponsored students. i guess these ppl have only been surrounded by the matrik type or mediocre bumis. i admit there are super smart bumis as well in matrik or any other program but not many. people like this should have minggled more with sponsored students like in a-level kyms, IB or the american top uni program.
It’s back to the future! In the 70-90’s that was how Bumis are selected into critical courses, via the Universities’ Asasi programmes. Then there was a push for ‘meritocracy’, and the Matriculation was created to help Bumis get into unis. Then up to 10% of Matrik places were allocated to non-Bumis and they started hogging the 4.0.
It looks like it have gone full cycle and we are back to Asasi again! We should also then go back to the old quota system like existed before ‘meritocracy’ was attempted!
The creating of Matriculation and Asasi and setting an easy path for acquiring Critical Courses in Public U are the culprits for deteriorating the standard of our Medical Education in this Bolehland.
Not only medical!
Anyone familiar with the USM-KLE programme? what bout that?
It is a off-campus program
A high percentage of non bumi medic student in local public universities this year did not have CGPA 4.00. One of my friend with foundation in science from AIMST was offered dentistry course by USM Kelantan in this year’s intake. I was told that the results gap between the good one and bad one in public Univ were very wide. Lately, our Edu Ministry is doing a balancing act by changing the intake criteria to using kokurikulum rather than CGPA. The chances is those with CGPA 4.0 did not get a place in medic or dentistry course in local univ. They were offered Perubatan Veterinary or other science related courses instead. Really can’t know the true reason for this kind of selection process!
how good is the usm-kle prog?
I am not sure yet
what if i got two offers for medic? USM-KLE and UMS..which one to choose?
I think both should be ok
Dr, is there any scholarships or loans available for non-bumis for this usm-kle prog?
The main sponsor is MARA via loan and the tuition fee is USD100,000 for five years. JPA doesn’t give scholarship for this program.
will appreciate if anyone has any inside information regarindg the upcoming health transformation program
What I know so far (?rumours?)
1. its going to involve KK’s referring to private hospitals first
2. then, GPs, referring to private/public hospitals, based on zoning
3. existing clinics will be absorbed into the system with incentives given for specialisation and extra qualification (skin, occ health, ultrasound, etc)
4. once all zones have achieved equilibrium, new clinics can only be started by FMS
5. yes, separation of prescription/dispensing is the key backbone of this transformation
6. GPs paid RM 40 per consult outcome of each practice to be measured and additional incentives given, each practice capped to a certain number of patient with a limited number of visits per year, essentially a capitation system
7. Specialists remunerated based on complexity, outcome, among other things
8. Private hospitals can be set up, but under zoning
9. Taxation and GST elements still being ironed out
10. The system may be radical to the providers, but patients should experience more choice in care (except going to a seperate pharmacy)
seems like many that reply here are old doctors or specialist who graduated locally.
i am proud to say that i am also aa local med school graduate. passed my mrcp, and doing last year as a registrar in a sub specialties. so, to those Mmed physician, pls do not discriminate me, ok.. chill up.
ok back to topic…..
during my time as a physician, i have seen many great local graduate med students, they eager to learn, wiling to tag till overtime, seen some australia and uk graduate whom are great in knowledges.
But, i have also seen many INDONESIA and RUSSIA graduate which are utterly lack of science knowledges and not willing to learn. In addition, they are also some of the greatest complainers to the hospitals.
so, mr pagalavan, as a responsible doctor yourself, u should voice out your concern to the public, by urging those cash rich families not to send their below par children to Russia, Indon medical school.
i really could not imagine, if, one day, a ospital is infested by all the below par oversea graduate.
one more thing, what is the progress of the entry exam which discussed before by our world class government ?
What do you think I am doing with this blog? I had written enough about this. The entry exam is still being discussed. MMC has formed a committee to look into it.
As usual all public universities will be exempted from entry exam if ever being drafted. It is just similar to the current MQE exam but this time it will be applicable to a wider range of foreign universities. Come back to square one, no big deal.
Hi Doctor,
What are the steps of becoming a plastic surgeon in Malaysia after graduating from a local med school? Do I just apply for the Master’s in General Surgery programme after a certain number of years of service since there is no point of sitting for MRCS unless I wish to pursue my studies in the UK & Singapore? What other steps should I do afterwards?
Th steps are the same as I had written many times in this blog. Please read under ” For Future Doctors” page.
USM do conduct a Master in Plastic Surgery course but very limited places every year (usually less than 10). Otherwise, you need to do Masters in Surgery for 4 years and then go on to sub-specialise in plastic surgery (another 3-4 years)
I see, thank you for the reply doctor.
I hope that you do know what exactly Plastic Surgery is all about if you’re contemplating pursuing a career in this specialty. Most people seem to think that it’s all about aesthetic surgery when that is only a very small part of the skillset required of a competent Plastic Surgeon. The reality is not as glamorous as is commonly perceived! It is however, a very creative and artistic one.
Dr Pagalavan, wat i a trying to convey is, the below par medical graduate should be brought to the interest of whole nation. I really foresee a complete jeopardise of medical field.
imagaine one day, if we have to be treated by the below par doctor.
for plastic surgeon, as what Pagalavan mentioned, these are the only options.
But, u one should not compare a plastic surgeon vs aesthetic. AESTHETIC merely just a medical officer Dip derm qualification. They are not trained properly to perform any procedures and prescribe certain drugs. So, pls dont confuse aesthetic and plastic surgeon.
secondly, i seen one of my MO, quitted gov service after many attempts in passing mrcp part 1 by joining K** Skin specialist centre, which i believe they have many branches throughout malaysia. I do not think it is a proper practise, and i am not sure if the MO ever did tell the patients he is a licensed dermatologist or not.
It appears that what you are talking about is “aesthetic medicine” rather than “aesthetic surgery” which is what I was referencing in the context of Plastic Surgery.
Most of the general public do not understand the difference between an “aesthetic pracititioner” vs “aesthetic physician” vs “aesthetic surgeon”. It is a reflection of just how badly regulated the aesthetic medicine industry is. The volume of aesthetic medicine being undertaken by aesthetic pracititioners/physicians greatly exceeds that performed by Plastic Surgeons.
Aesthetic surgery on the other hand, not so easy for just any dubiously qualified doctor/surgeon to partake of. If the skills are lacking, that person is quickly discovered and due punishment administered by the MMC. The moral of this story is that if you do not want to have to compete with the dubiously qualified masses indulging in the “aesthetic medicine” industry to make a living, the long, hard road to a specialist qualification in Plastic Surgery is well worth the effort in the long run.
The only way we are going to solve the quality problem is via a common entry or exit exam.
The government will have a lot of headaches if there is a common exit exam. It is almost impossible as the Education Ministry themselves has sent tons of scholars to Russia, Ukraine, Egypt, Poland and Rep.Czech. Thousands have yet to return.
Common entry or exit exam is just for fun talking only. If the exam is in Bahasa Melayu, those government scholars coming back from Russia, Ukraine, Czech Rep., Poland and other European countries will definitely be in trouble. Similarly if the exam is to be held in English, then those government scholars coming back from Indonesia, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon will also be in trouble. Government money will gone to waste if these scholars in thousands every year can’t get their registration with MMC.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
Good day
I plan to take up Medicine.
As a JPA scholar, i actually secured entry to both Monash and IMU in next February entry.
Is take up Medicine in Monash a better choice if i were to compare with IMU in areas such as Facility, Lecturer’s competency, Reputation, Recognition and opportunity to go for MRCP or doing Master Program after my graduation?
Regards,
Francis
Both are OK. IMU is almost 10 years older with better facilities. However Monash is recognised in Australia. Since you are JPA scholar, you are bonded for 10 years. Thus it does not make any difference.
it will be in English. Most universities where government scholars go are taught in English. However, you need a credit in Bahasa to get a job in government service.
common exit program cannot be in bahasa melayu lor, they even use english in ipta for medical courses. i am sure it will be problem for them to translate everything into bahasa as well. it has to be in english. those from russia/ egypt/jordan (i am not sure about indo, and dont know if ppl go to lebanon for medicine or even any course? ) have their program taught in english, thus there shouldnt be problem if the test is in english, medical knowledge and competency will be the only the determining factor. students in foreign uni only learn local language for communication with patients.. except if they do medicine in japan, yes it is japanese but now i havent heard many go to jap for medicine
Indeed a very valuable information u provide. I never know the existence of aesthetic physician. Based on my understanding, any MBBS holder can declare themself as aesthetic consultant without going through any formal training by merely taking only a 3 months aesthetic course, such as dipderm in Bangkok. I knew this due to a few fellow Medical Officer, which were my colleagues did this.
How about aesthetic physician? What are the paths that one need to go through before u are declared as aesthetic physician?
I spent 3 years to complete my mrcp, 1 year plus for gazettement, and another 3 years in my sub speciality.
For plastic surgeon, one of my fellow colleague get enrolled into the master programme after only 4 years waiting in queue.
may i know at what age u pass ur mrcp
30
sorry me again. doc, u graduated from um. do u think mrcp is more difficult than ur final university exams and how hard is it? how long it takes to pass all the 3 phases of mrcp?
The exam format has changed a lot since my time. It is an entry exam in UK. If you prepare well, you can eventually pass it. The passing rate is around 45-50 %.
BTW, I had written about it in this blog. Please care to read it under For Future Doctors page!!
Dr paga it is rumoured that CUCMS is going to take over AUCMS according to my seniors..do you know any updates on the current situation of AUCMS ?i have finished my foundation last july and got offered for md aucms…
Have not heard anything but even if it is true, nothing to shout about. CUCMS is already in trouble with MMC and even on the latest recognised list by MMC http://mmc.gov.my/v1/docs/Second%20Schedule%20-%20Updated%2020140810.pdf#page32, CUCMS has been derecognised since 12/2011. So, I will not put my money into it.
Dr can i have your email, i have alot of stuffs to ask for your advise n i think it’s better via email. 🙂
pagal72@gmail.com
http://www.theantdaily.com/Main/Doctors-sit-up-your-medical-blunders-have-ruined-lives
This news would probably never end up in mainstream media. These cases are just tip of the iceberg when substandard doctors are allowed to practice medicine.
Hi to all, just a question, how long is the current waiting period for housemanship after graduation?
I’m a self sponsored student rather than JPA or MARA sponsored, would that affect my waiting period?
The last I heard was 4-6 months this year
Thank you Drs. for the replies. I was actually planning to study for my usmle during the waiting period. I’m looking at least 6-7 months of full time study daily. I will only graduate around mid-2016. So, if the waiting period was shorter than 6 months, do MOH allow graduates to defer housemanship to a later period?
Actually, is it advisable to ask for deferment / postponement in the first place as it seems from Dr’s post (and also from previous posts) that the year 2016 going to be a tough year………..?
Passing USMLE does not guarantee a residency post in US. Thus I would not advice anyone to defer housemanship. With the limited post at that time, you may end up not getting a job!
Dragv88 you need at least 3 months full time study to pass step 1 and another 3 months for step 2ck. that is to pass, but of course you need better score to get matched in us. you need to get used with some diseases that are only associated with us and which states, and some legal issues which pertinent to us law. start registering the exam now if you plan to take it as the registration itself is quite troublesome especially if you are the first from your med school to do so
ipta students graduated/completed their final year last may have started recently in early sep.. about 3 months waiting, but i would say 3 months of resting before starting another learning period
I heard some who graduated in May from private units will only be starting in October!
CUCMS Cyberjaya newly took in 106 students for the MBBS course this year (2014). Most of the student manage to transfer from AUCMS to CUCMS this year. CUCMS is working out to take over AUCMS and continue with the University Sumatera programme. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1466908473593417/
Suddenly I wonder, lower qualification for medical student intake –> sub-par medical doctors –> more screwed up medical cases –> patient/family members sue –> MOH pays if case is lost, and other doctors do more preventive medicine –> increased cost of healthcare on MOH
MOH is eating own shit eh…
[…] to reduce their intake last year. Remember the magic number 418 which turn out to be a “moronic” statement by a deputy minister? The total intake for public medical schools last year was […]