Every year, around this time, there will be hue and cry in the medias by politicians regarding failure of top students getting into critical fields in local public universities. At the top of the list will always be medicine. However, this year, there was a big twist to the story! Few days after some young students revealed that they failed to get into medical course in local public university despite scoring 4As etc, one of our great politician came with one of the best statements of all time. He claimed that only 418 students were offered medical course this year to avoid oversupply of doctors !!
While he admits that we are heading to that direction, the statement did not make any sense to most of us. The figure 418 simply do not tally. There are 11 IPTAs offering 13 medical programs in this country. IT is VERY UNLIKELY that each university only took 50 students on average!! I was informed that UM only wanted to take 120 students this year as the intention is to make UM as a premier university for medicine. I contacted some of my friends from the universities and I was told that the figure is likely only for the STPM/ Matriculation intake. It did not include asasi students intake. It was interesting to note that in his statement, he said that this reduction in numbers were made after consultation with MMC and MOH (see below).
Interestingly, today I received a press statement issued by our DG aka Chairman of MMC denying the fact that such a decision/directive was made/given by MMC/MOH (see below). So, someone is talking nonsense as usual.
If at all the government wants to reduce the number of graduates, I feel it should start from the private colleges and NOT the public universities. Public university intakes should be maintained and should be allocated to the best students who have genuine interest in medicine. Unfortunately, private universities are a business and the government cannot close down businesses!!
Whatever it is, the number 418 still remains a mystery……………………. By early next month, hopefully I will be receiving further info on the exact number of students who were accepted into some of the public universities.
Limited Offers To Study Medicine To Prevent Flood Of Doctors – Kamalanathan
KUALA LUMPUR, Aug 18 (Bernama) — The government has offered places to only 418 brilliant students to take up medical studies (first degree) at public institutions of higher learning for this year’s intake.
Deputy Education Minister P.Kamalanathan said the limited number of offers was meant to control the number of new medical graduates and avoid a flood of new doctors in the employment market.
“A total of 1,163 students with a Cumulative Grade Point Average (CGPA) of 4.00 applied to do medicine, but offers were only made to only 418 of them and the selection was also based on interview results.
“We made this decision following discussions with the Health Ministry and the Malaysian Medical Council (MMC),” he told reporters here today.
He said the others who were not offered medical studies were offered other courses, but related to the field.
He said this in response to complaints by students with CGPA of 4.0 in the Sijil Tinggi Persekolahan Malaysia (STPM) and matriculation who failed to get offer to study medicine.
Kamalanathan advised those who failed to get places at IPTA to appeal to the Education Ministry online at upu.moe.gov.my before Aug 23.
“A total of 37,467 students have received offers at IPTA, there might be some students who are not happy with their course.
“For them I suggest they accept the course and register first, then put appeal in writing directly to the university concerned,” he added.
The ministry, he said, made sure that all students with CGPA of 4.00 received offers at IPTA for the 2014/2015 academic session.
— BERNAMA
Press Statement MMC : No directive to reduce intake of medical students
Posted on August 23, 2014 by pejabatkpk
PRESS STATEMENT : MALAYSIAN MEDICAL COUNCIL
1. I refer to the article published in the New Straits Times, on the 19 August 2014, Page 9 – “Drop in intake for medical degrees”
2. The Malaysian Medical Council (MMC) would like to clarify that all accredited medical schools in Malaysia have been given approval for a specific quota in terms of number of students to be enrolled every academic year. The quota is determined by their teaching capacity, and takes into consideration among others the lecturers to student ratio, and also the students to hospital beds ratio to ensure that students get adequate clinical teaching.
3. For the public medical schools in Malaysia the total size of the approved quota is 1,550 student intake annually, and is distributed among the 11 Public Universities with 13 medical programs (UM 180, UKM 200, USM 300, UPM 100, UNIMAS 120, UIA 140, UMS 90, UiTM 230, USIM 80, UNIZA 60, UPNM 50). The approved quota was decided based on their ability to comply with the accreditation guidelines for medical programmes.
4. MMC has never give any directive to any of the public universities/public medical schools to reduce their intake of the medical students. They are free to enroll the students in accordance with the quota approved for them, provided they are in compliance with the accreditation guidelines mentioned above, especially in relation to the students lecturer ratio and also the ratio of students to the hospital beds.
5. The issue of oversupply does not arise as long as the public universities comply with the approved quotas and the accreditation requirements, which is important in ensuring the quality of medical graduates so that patients are provided safe and quality care.
Datuk Dr Noor Hisham Abdullah
President
Malaysian Medical Council
23 August 2014
Pagalavan's Avatar 
Whoa Dr Paga,it looks like the shitload of mess is gong to hit the fan!.What is going on?.Looks like a “a massive coverup”is the order of the day!
It is no surprise this year’s intake for medicine was 418 only. I am from Matrkulasi Selangor and we already knew much earlier that the Education Ministry has limit the quota for intake of medicine from this year’s onwards as hinted by our lecturer and kolej authority. I am perplexed not because of not being offered medicine but the fact that most of my batch student has been offered ridiculous courses, some not even listed in our last choice. The quota is not from the MMC but by the education ministry’s policy intake for this year. It seems they put an an emergency brake on the three major courses i.e. Medicine, Dentistry and Pharmacy.
The number is too low! I was informed that asasi students are taken in directly by university and thus not via MOE
Not many are aware that there are two types of Asasi programs in IPTAs i.e. 12-month normal track and 8-month fast track. Only the normal track Asasi from UM and UiTM need to apply through UPU for IPTAs placement and priority is always given by the same universities where they completed their Asasi study. For years, many of those fast track students have been admitted into their respective medical program despite the MMC’s requirement of NOT less than 12 months in foundation study. The very first 2 batches of fast-track program in one IPTA have inadvertently been admitted into its medical program in 2011 and 2012. Those qualified students started in December based on SPM trial exam results and they were immediately absorbed in their MD program in the following year’s August. I’m not sure about another IPTA which claimed that they’re the largest university in the world in term of student population. This university has more than 60 Asasi and diploma programs in its course list.
what I am concerned is not the limitation of doctors…our smart lot who looses out in Malaysia will study unwanted courses, join medicine in not well equipped medical school or even te taken away by neighbouring countries that are hunting for intelligence and talent…..then we will have Talentcorp to rehunt them back
Our smart lot may not get the medical course but they will be given a non medical course as an alternative. Even if they were taken away by neighboring countries, one thing for sure, they will not given medical course, they will be offered non medical course as well. The average number of ASEAN student accepted in Singapore medical schools are 3 (THREE)!
Not only Singapore, many of our smart students especially those with UEC qualification have nowadays gone to Taiwan where it’s now short of qualified doctors because many local doctors have left for greener pasture in mainland China. Chinese is presently very short of western doctors and the people there are giving preference to western medicine than traditional Chinese medicine.
My opinion is unless you are a really smart student, UEC is not an option. To master one language is a very difficult task let alone to master 3 languages. Those who don’t perform well in UEC will likely to have an uncertain future. UEC is like a gamble. You must make sure you achieve an excellent result to have a real option in tertiary education. And again not all top scorers will be accepted in medical courses in Taiwan.
I don’t deny most UEC students are Chinese but you don’t have to be really smart to study UEC. The exam is widely recognised by many countries now. Besides Taiwan, the due recognition by Chinese government has also opened up the door for our students to further their undergraduate degree in most universities in China of which their degrees are also recognised by Malaysia. There’re many scholarships and bursaries ready for grab and that’s why you can see UEC student enrolment has steadily increased over the recent years.
Thanks Dr Pagalavan for another open up on this ongoing matter. As a matriculation leaver, im embroiled in a state of no offers from any public universities to pursue medicine. It has really been my undoubtedly passion to pursue a degree in medicine. And with the recent announcement of the UPU results, i was denied an entry. I have sent in a few appeals directly to the deans of the medical faculty in our IPTAs such as UMS, and UNISZA. Ive been informed that i will have to wait for the registration of the Sept session students. Only then my appeal will be looked upon. Based on your experience Dr, do you think i have a chance to make it into our public universities to do medicine? I completed matriculation with a CGPA of 3.88 and MUET band 4. thus, Ive only sent in appeals to medical schools which stated 3.75 as their minimum requirement. Not surprisingly though, some of my college mates were offered a medical seat in our IPTAs even though some of them scored a lesser CGPA than mine. (eg:3.70) I kindly need your view on this Dr. Thank You.
As far as I know, you need CGPA of about 4.0 to get into medicine, for non bumis.
Hi, i would like to send appeal letter to UMS. Just want to know did you get medicine course for all the appeal letters that you sent?
Depends on your luck
But there are some unfortunate 4.0s who failed to get a place in our local unis. Some of my friends who scored 4.0 and given a course out of their choice are now opting for private institutions which i cant afford.Thank you Dr for your insight. I shall just keep my fingers crossed for now and hope something good comes in the way.
Sir, I’m about to join a medical college soon. Some people tell me that the govt may not provide me with a job when I graduate. I would appreciate your opinion. Thanks.
ALL the answers are HERE in this blog. I have been saying this for the last 5 years! Nothing is guaranteed in the future
An article from Malaysiakini….http://s.m5.malaysiakini.com/news/272831.html
having the same diagnosis of the Malaysia health system by Dr Paga
Our medical colleges – for better or for worse?
Ng Swee Choon | 8:00AM Aug 27, 2014
COMMENT Medical colleges in the country have been hogging the headlines of late. Certain medical colleges have shamed us publicly and internationally for allegedly not paying staff salaries and not settling their contractual dues.
If the medical colleges involved do not feel ashamed, we Malaysians and Malaysian doctors feel the shame. It is certainly not our Malaysian culture to be known across the world for this.
Recently, there was also the irresponsible statement by Deputy Education Minister P Kamalanathan to cut down on places in public medical colleges when the problem is with private medical colleges. Private medical education is now big business.
I am writing to highlight this very important issue that medical education has now become a business, important only for the bottom line of the company owning the licence.
One of the persons interviewed, unashamedly said that it was important for his company to have a medical college, because it is good for their branding. In other words, to give their business a better name.
There seems to be no concern about helping Malaysia produce better doctors for the rakyat.
There are now 33 medical colleges of various sizes and track records. The majority are privately owned. I understand that there are licences, already issued for another seven to eight more medical colleges.
Part of this mushrooming of medical colleges is because of the often quoted statistic that we should have a doctor to patient ratio of 1:400, which is better than a first world country. This data is used to justify having more medical colleges. Let us not forget that the doctor-patient ratio is never a standalone statistic to measure healthcare standards.
We must understand the healthcare needs of the country. Just simply aping the healthcare needs of another high income economy is too simplistic. The specific healthcare needs of each country will be different.
In high-income countries, this doctor-patient ratio is relevant to different disease patterns and a healthcare expenditure nearer or in excess of 10 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). We in Malaysia, with a doctor-patient ratio of 1:800, spend only about 4.6 percent of our GDP on healthcare, but yet have similar healthcare outcomes.
Basically, we have a good healthcare system and do not need a 1:400 doctor-patient ratio. Healthcare outcomes are more important statistics than just a simple doctor-patient ratio. You get to see a doctor, but he is so poorly trained that he cannot help you. You may not be worse off than not seeing the doctor.
There is certainly no need for 33 medical colleges, many of doubtful quality, producing more than 3,500 medical graduates, many of whom are also of doubtful quality. This falling standard of the medical students is currently also affecting the standards of our public medical colleges.
What we need is four to five well-funded, well-staffed good medical colleges (preferably public institutions), together producing about 1,000 medical graduates annually, forming an annual increase of 5,000 new medical graduates (together with those returning from overseas).
The state of affairs in some medical colleges
Do any of you know the state of affairs in many of the private medical colleges in the country?
Many have few permanent, full time staff. They hire contract doctors to teach.
Some medical colleges time the arrival of these contract medical teachers to coincide with the arrival of the regular checks by the Ministry of Education/Malaysian Medical Council committee. This gives a false picture to the inspecting team. Once the inspection is over, many contract teachers are also sent back.
The students that we admit into medical colleges are also of much lower standard. Many of them do not have the linguistic and technical skills needed to be a doctor. Many are products of “spoon fed” teaching methods.
In established medical colleges around the world, medical students are not spoon-fed. They must be able to think and work out a problem. This method is important as medical students (future doctors) must be able to work out the complexities of a patient’s sickness based on varied symptoms and signs.
The problem is that these students are unable to switch overnight from one system to another. Not to mention that many of the contract teachers themselves are from countries where “think for yourselves” is also not a strong point.
So now we have a requirement not to spoon feed and students and teachers who know nothing except the spoon-feeding method. That compounds the problem. Our secondary educational system is to blame.
So, how do medical colleges short of teaching staff fill up their time-tables? Take a look at the time-tables of many medical colleges. They have the headings “self-directed learning” and “ward work” without any guidance and any supervisor.
Some medical colleges’ time-tables for their final year of study do not even cover 50 percent of the core curriculum. When queried, the answer is, “we prefer not to spoon-feed them, we want to let them study on their own”.
Guess where these students are? Many are anywhere except in the ward and the library. Then they might as well just mark everyday “self-directed learning” and the students just buy a thick medical textbook and study on their own. Just turn up for the exams. It will save the parents plenty of money. Is this the kind of medical colleges we want? Is this the way we want our future doctors to be taught?
Now, when medical students reach Year 3, they have to begin to learn to begin their junior clerkship. Meaning they must learn to clerk (interview ) patients to try and work out what disease the patient is suffering from.
………………. http://s.m5.malaysiakini.com/news/272831.html
What I have been ranting since the last 8 years!
Dear Sir.We are at the university health centres are very much concern about the upcoming intake from African Countries particularly from Nigeria in view of the Ebola spread.We have tried to contact MOH and express our concern,however we were told screening has been done at their home countries and transit places so the risk is low.BUt I was wondering why the UK and Australia had suggested 6 months delay for admission from African country for their intake while their healthcare system is, pardon me if I’m wrong, much better than ours?I am just concern about our fellow colleagues especially the one that handle the influx.In the UK the screening counter personnel is equipped with N95 masks,goggles, aprons and isolation passage/room upon detection.Ours are, I would say not up to that standard.
The Malaysian Boleh style! Fever can start up to 3 weeks after an infection and a person who survived an infection can still transmit the virus through his semen up to 7 weeks. So, by merely saying that patient did not have fever upon entering the country do not have EBOLa, is not true. A clear history of contact is needed or a quarantine will be necessary for those who are coming from countries affected by this virus.
Thank you for your kind reply dear Sir.Perhaps not much fuss about this as people are focusing on Selangor’s politics.BUt I am just concern as only one mistake is needed to cause a nation wide problem,and with the influx of African students (or ?students) here, the risk is there.May God protect us.I am an avid follower,and I always recommend your site to my juniors, parents, lecturers and even those who came for pre-entrance medical check up for medical course.I told them although this is not an official reference, but trust me you can find anything in regards to medical concern in here.Thank you for the time-based promotion dear Sir.Its great to be able to make a difference,Have a great and healthy day.
Dr Pag,
Very interesting & long article in this morning’s Malaysiakini.
You will love it…its all out now.
“”Our medical colleges – for better or for worse?””
Extracts….
‘If the medical colleges involved do not feel ashamed, we Malaysians and Malaysian doctors feel the shame. It is certainly not our Malaysian culture to be known across the world for this.’
‘One of the persons interviewed, unashamedly said that it was important for his company to have a medical college, because it is good for their branding. In other words, to give their business a better name.’
‘Recently, there was also the irresponsible statement by Deputy Education Minister P Kamalanathan to cut down on places in public medical colleges when the problem is with private medical colleges. Private medical education is now big business.’
.Must read
Haha, I have written all this over the last 5 years!
http://www.thestar.com.my/Opinion/Letters/2014/08/26/Coping-with-an-overdose-of-doctors/
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Education/2014/08/24/Too-many-doctors-so-intake-for-medical-courses-reduced/
690 last year? I don’t think so. UM/UKM/USM and UPM alone is already 500+. Again, asasi intake generally do not go through UPU.
Hi Dr.Paga,
If u were given an offer for Medicine(Monash Malaysia) and Dentistry(IMU)….which would you choose?
Do what you are interested. Both are OK universities.
Dr.Paga, if u were given an offer for Medicine(Monash Malaysia) and Dentistry(IMU)….which would you choose?
Do what you are interested in. That should take precedence over which establishment.
Dr Paga,
Except for Dr Ismail American, the CEOs/founders of the medical colleges interviewed seem disconnected to reality, or am I reading it all wrong?
Also, what is your opinion about private training hospitals? For the life of me I cannot see how it will work, in the current scenario. How many cases of each discipline will be available for the sheer numbers of medical students? Even in the UK, the students are rotated among various NHS training hospitals.
http://www.thestar.com.my/404.html?item=%2fbusiness%2fbusiness-news%2f2014%2f08%2f23%2fmedic-college-shakeout-industry-needs-consolidation-as-many-smaller-schools-cannot-survive-on-their%2f&user=extranet%5cAnonymous&site=TheStarOnline
Your link is missing!
I had given comment about this before. It will not work!
It has been deleted/removed! Wow.
There’s no issue of “over-supply” of doctors at all, according to MMC, Minister of Health and Education Department. Public universities can possibly take up to a maximum of 1,550 per year (today The Star paper)
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/08/28/Subra-Find-ways-to-take-in-more-medical-students/
This is becoming circus-like. Nobody’s claiming responsibility, and I wonder just how much pull has been exercised this past week.
It is becoming a joke!! so who instructed the uni to reduce intake? It looks like a political stunt! There is no issue of oversupply as far as public uni intake is concerned. It is the private uni and overseas graduates which need to be controlled.
Basically there are clear evidence of lowering the number of yearly intake of medical student progressively in public universities. Of course the main directive came from the Education Ministry, not only on public universities, but also private universities. Somehow, MMC refuted the blame and they said it is not their directive on the low intake. In fact, the JPA has hinted on their shortfall of fund very much earlier and cutting cost through reducing the number of doctors to an optimum level is high on their agenda. In fact matrikulasi student were already hinted much earlier by their respective kolej about the low intake of medical student this year. That’s why there’s not much hoo..haa.. from student this year despite the low intake by public universities in medicine.
private universities have not received any instruction from MOE to reduce intake( I had confirmed this from some unis). The intake gradually declined last 2 years due to the minimum entry requirement introduced by MMC in 2011. MMC also got no hand in this. Their job is only to tell what the maximum a uni can take and what are the min entry requirement. Public uni did start to reduce the intake last year but the numbers mentioned in newspaper is not the true numbers, as far as I know.
Dr.Paga,
I am interested in both medicine and dentistry.So,now im confused….dont really know which one to choose.
What is your opinion/advice?
I can’t advise for you when I don’t even know who are you! You need to decide for yourself
My mistake, article was not pulled, it was updated on 26 August 2014.
http://www.thestar.com.my/Business/Business-News/2014/08/26/Medic-College-Shakeout/
I find it rather silly that public universities intake are getting affected due to the glut. At least we know that the quality of doctors produced by local public universities would be good enough to work in the local government hospitals setting.
To make things easier, why don’t MOH just put their foot down with regards to controlling the intake of HOs into the service? I don’t think MOH is subjected to any law to take in every single HO into the service.
There is a re-proposal now to set an exam for all graduates, before they are eligible for housemanship. There is going to be a lot of resistance to this, from many quarters.
MoH really have little say in the training of doctors. It’s the MoE that decides the numbers in IPTA,and give out licenses to businessman like candies. MQA accredit the programmes purely from a theoretical point of view, with no regard to quality. It is the MMC that then need to evaluate the adequacy of the teaching and grant recognition. And it must be the only regulatory medical body in the world that needs to impose a minimum qualification guideline for entry into medical schools. This minimum is actually way BELOW what other countries would consider minimum.
I mean as in HO employment as a short term measure to curb the issue of saturation and glut. MOH has no obligation to employ every single HO graduated.
@ GP, you are as innocent as Dr Paga. Yes Public universities are good in the 70s and 80s but not now. None of my non-bumi kolej mates in Matrikulasi without CGPA 4.0 get any place in medicne or dentistry. 90% of places for medicine in local public universities are filled with bumis with CGPA less than 3.90. Most of us in Matrikulasi with CGPA between 3.90 and 4.00 applied to some private universities like AIMST, IMU and Melaka Manipal but were rejected as well because they have reached their quota intake. Only some new private universities do accept us like MAHSA, UCSI, TAYLOR and MONASH do accept us but this places are for the rich and famous to study. Except probably MU and UKM, I really don’t agree that the rest of the public universities are any better than those private universities which have already produced medical graduates. Of course you don’t compare with those private universities that have not produced any graduates as they are not even recognised by MMC yet.
Hi sukumaran, u could try MSU International Medical School in Shah Alam and by the way the tuition fees are much cheaper that the ones who have accepted you
They have their own problems as well
90% is a statement without any evidence. Do you have any facts or figures to support your claim ? I suggest you to talk cautiously provide proof before stating remarks like that. It’s irresponsible. It greatly saddens me to see people nowadays give out statements without any support. E.g. One of the MCA people said publicly that they were 4000 intake for matriculation and 3000 of them got 4.0, this clearly is wrong. Another statement says the matriculation exams are not centralised, which is again wrong because it’s centralized by the MoE. These statements are causing upheaval among parents. Those misleading claims are from the mouth of high ranking officials and is that what our society has become ? A society of talking without thinking, using ideas without referencing, and lambaste with bias view. Think about it.
I guess “Follow the Leader” cannot be played here, or it’s only a game for the selected ones only. So confusing!
Matriculation is standardized by MOE but not the university’s own Asasi or foundation programs. If you want to solve this problem, please standardized it with only 1 single pre U course, either STPM or Matriculation. ONLY then people will stop being prejudice.
I think it is you who are innocent. I know exactly what is happening in all private universities. Almost all private universities do not even have more than 20 full time lecturers. CGPA is not the only factor that is going to decide whether you will be a good doctor or not. The most important factor is the training facilities. Public universities still have the best training facilities when it comes to medical faculty. Of course the best training facilities are still UM, UKM and USM followed by UPM, UNIMAS and UIA. The rest are still new.
I thought all private universities’ students train in government hospitals. Some of the government hospitals which they have been assigned are even better than some public universities’ assigned hospitals, with complete facilities and specialised department. I could be wrong but I just came to know that the private universities do pay quarterly fees to the government for all the facilities used in government hospitals but all public universities do not need to pay back anything to the hospitals for whatever facilities used. That could be one of the reason why the government is slowly moving towards privatisation, even to the extend of reducing the yearly intake of medical student into public universities. Some of the specialists too welcome private universities’ student as these specialists received side income and allowances from the universities for their teaching time to the clinical students.
I am talking about the teaching environment. A big hospital does not mean the students will get superb teaching. There are a lot other factors involved. Medicine is not about lecturers coming and teaching for 1 hour and all is well and good. Most government doctors do not even have any time to teach students and the MOH instruction is not to teach during office hours as clinical service is more important. NO public specialist will teach if NOT paid! Some even demand very high rate per hour which the private uni can’t afford to pay. Some do teaching for the sake of doing it so that they get the extra allowance. The scenario is different in a university owned teaching hospital. You can go anywhere you want in the hospital and the staffs will be ever willing to teach. You can do procedures and you will be thought even when you go for their ward rounds. IT is a teaching environment. Except for a few “paperless” public hospitals which has limited number of beds, most public hospitals are crowded with patients where no staff will even bother to teach anything to the students. They consider the students as a nuisance.
Dr.Paga,
I understand that you dont really know me but just some advice in general for those out there who are having problem choosing between medicine and dentistry…especially those who are interested in both.
Do you think in 5 years time the field of dentistry will be facing the same situation as it is for medicine right now eg.glut of dentists,…etc?
If you are in my position now and have obtained offers for medicine and dentistry…which would you opt for?
*Just your personal opinions and I understand that I should decide on my own…just need some guidance/enlightement.
It would be an honour to me if I am able to get some views from an experienced person like you Dr.
Thank you.
Dr.Paga,
I understand that you dont really know me but just some advice in general for those out there who are having problem choosing between medicine and dentistry…especially those who are interested in both.
Do you think in 5 years time the field of dentistry will be facing the same situation as it is for medicine right now eg.glut of dentists,…etc?What do you think about the job prospects of a dentist in 5 years time,career opportunities etc.? Now there is control by the goverment on the number of doctors graduating as they have realised the glut of doctors…but they dont seem to control the number of dentists…most probably the condition will become like medicine then only they will realise and do something when its too late…
What year do you expect Malaysia to achieve the optimal dentist to patient ratio?
If you are in my position now and have obtained offers for medicine and dentistry…which would you opt for?
*Just your personal opinions and I understand that I should decide on my own…just need some guidance/enlightement.
It would be an honour to me if I am able to get some views from an experienced person like you Dr.Paga.
Thank you.
Dr Paga is correct. The public hospitals specialists are willing to teach but sometimes they are just too busy. And the hospitals are so crowded that students cant even concentrate during teaching.
Hi Dr! Talking about teaching environment, I thought not all public universities have their own teaching hospitals? Except UM, UKM and USM (which have their own teaching hospitals), why do you think that other public uni like UPM, Unimas, UIA are better than some prestigious private uni (IMU, Monash, NUMed) in term of teaching environment? Please advise.
These universities are public universities which have good facility with good relationship with the attached public hospital. Since both are public universities, not much bureaucracy involved.
The story is different if one is a private and another is public!
Sukumaran, you are silly and immature, firstly to chide seniors who know the system more than yourself and secondly, for not knowing the facts . Forget about the issue of public universities being good in the 70s and 80s. We are talking about the current situation.
Please try to understand this statement that it is an undeniable fact that public universities have enough facilities including internal teaching staff to train medical students to be competent and safe enough to serve as HOs in a local government hospital setting. This cannot be said true of local private medical colleges, what more of dubious foreign medical colleges ?
Hence, it is better to increase or maintain local public universities intake, in which at least the products would be certain to be competent and safe enough to work in local setting, than employing dubious graduates (in which competency and safety would be an issue) from dubious foreign medical schools.
Small correction, ”This cannot be said true of local private medical colleges, what more of dubious foreign medical colleges ” should be read as ”This cannot be said true FOR ALL private medical colleges, what more of dubious foreign medical colleges ” as some local private medical colleges do produce good, competent and safe graduates.
As I am not that familiar with the pathways to the local IPTAs, I would like to ask: Are asasi programs open to non-bumis? So the best chance for entry to courses like pharmacy and law in local IPTAs is via asasi followed by matriculation with whatever leftovers for STPM students?
as far as I know, only UKM, UPM asasi are open to non-bumis. The rest are Bumis only.10% of matriculation are open to non-bumis.
UPNM Asasi is also open to non-bumi but preference is given to SPM students from Royal Military College. The same goes to UKM Asasi Pintar which gives preference to students from its own Permata Pintar program.
http://www.malaysia-students.com/2012/06/matriculation-programme-matrikulasi.html This is an article about matriculation. Contrary to common belief, matriculation does being accepted by so many foreign universities but I have to admit that the curriculum marks is a bit unfair compare to STPM students. But you have to play along the system aim for best SPM result and not go for critical courses through STPM. STPM is obsolete now.
Thanks guys for the responses. STPM is still recognised by UK universities until very recently but I dont know whether it is still recognised after the recent syllabus change for STPM. Matriculation and asasi are not recognised at all I think. At 17, many kids do not know what they want to really do for a career. Parents would often make or influence the decision and thats why there are a lot of students doing medicine without knowing what they are getting into. In America and now Melbourne University, you do general degrees and after graduation, if you want to opt for medicine or law, you do the MD or JD. There is a lot more flexiblity. Indeed, a university professor in Australia said the good thing about Australian double degrees is that it allows more flexibilty in career choices. it also widens their knowledge base. Here, the career pathway has to be decided at a rather early stage it would seem during Form 5. And it seems rather difficult to make a U-turn when one finds out he/she has embarked on the wrong career path.
http://web.moe.gov.my/bmkpm/index.php/profil/pencapaian-keunggulan/343-pengantarabangsaan-program-matrikulasi-kpm Matriculation is recognized and accepted in UK, Australia and New Zealand. However, the point is not whether STPM is internationally recognized or not? It is about which route is the best and cost effective for tertiary education? For critical courses in public universities, matriculation is the best in term of chance and cost effectiveness. Those especially the non bumi (10-15% n matriculation) who enroll in matriculation are almost guaranteed to fill the non bumi quota for critical courses in public universities.
I am not sure whether the list has been updated. I know Monash do not accept matriculation. Some of the other uni also do not put matriculation as their priority
Eventually it comes down to dollar and cent. If there is a route for full gov scholarship for the course you want you should go for it. STPM is recognised worldwide so what if you still need to pay to enrol onto those universities. Even Havant takes in china chinese students who don’t use English as first language.
Everybody thinks about Melbourne when graduate entry is mentioned, but they are rather late in this process. The first graduate entry med school in Oz is Flinders. Sydney turned graduate entry some 15 years ago. Most of the new Med schools started in this millennium are graduate entry (ANU, Griffith, Wollongong, Deakin and Notre Dame). Melbourne, UWA and UNSW are recent changes.
And it’s back to MMC:
http://www.therakyatpost.com/news/2014/08/30/admission-quota-medical-students-set-mmc-says-idris/
@yt, STPM is fully recognised by UK Universities. 2/3 of Australian med schools are already graduate entry.
@Poor Doctor, the matricukulasi programme takes in about 21K students, and a maximun of 10% is allocated to non-bumi, although many colleges do not take up to 10%.
@Jaz1, Idris is telling half truths, which to the uninitiated, appears true. Yes, it is true MMC decides on how many students any programme is allowed to take in, based on set guidelines. However, that is the MAXIMUM. The MMC has NO say in how many LESS than the licensed number any med school can take in. Which is what exactly is happening, IPTA med schools are cutting enrolment to way below their licensed capacity. That is a decision by the respective uni, and thus of course by the MoE and has nothing to do with MMC. Typical politician lies using half truths.
Finally, the matrik is recognised by quite a few foreign unis as well as IPTS. It’s all about the money.
Poor doctor, thanks for the link. I note though from the list that the number of UK, Australia and New Zealand universities recognizing matriculation is extremely limited. For UK, that is just 8 out of some 100 universities in UK, 4 out of some 40 universities in Australia, and 1 out of 8 universities in New Zealand. Top universities like Cambridge, Oxford, Durham, Edinburgh, Bristol, UCL, LSE, Imperial and Warwick and even most of the “lesser” ones are not on the list.
Do these universities consider matriculation for medicine? Blanket recognition?m
We have to be realistic. If we want gov sponsored scholarship. The best route is matriculation or even the military colleges. They do accept non Bumi students and these non bumi are almost guaranteed be given the priority for public universities quota especially the critical courses. Do we need to be obsessed with recognition at STPM level? If you are paying with FAMA scholarship, the options are even wider as long as you are able to pay for private colleges and universities. If you are good enough to be in matriculation especially for non Bumi, you are GUARANTEED a scholarship in public U if not the foreign one as only the best will be enrolled in matriculation.
That is not true. For non-bumis, they tend to select the 2nd tier students. There is NO guarantee of any scholarship in public U currently, as they have stopped giving automatic JPA scholarships, and overseas scholarships for medicine is only for the world top 10 unis, which does not recognise matrik.
Not true anymore. Now even non bumi top scorers in matriculation didnt get critical courses like medicine. Automatic JPA scholarship for medicine has been stopped 2 years ago.
If a top scorers cannot get a full scholarship through matriculation, what do you think the chance with STPM? Of course a so called world recognized STPM top scorers can be enrolled in so many universities all over the world but most likely your tuition fee will not be sponsored. To aim for scholarship will excellent STPM results is even worse the odds compare to matriculation. A good A level result will be a better choice to get foreign scholarship.
Like I said, you can still get a JPA scholarship if you can enrol in a world top 10 uni med school. It doesn’t matter which pre-u you have.
The fact of the matter then is, those 4 top 10 med schools you can enrol from pre-u (ie non-USA) don’t really care about your A levels or whatever. They have their own way of selection.
I should add that they have also rejected applications from those who got in, it’s no guarantee.
That is the realism.
To be clear: JPA have rejected scholarship applications from Malaysian student enrolled in Medicine in a top 10 university in UK.
Maybe I still didn’t make my point clear. My point is to be a doctor in Malaysia, you want to get yourself admitted to medical schools not necessary the foreign schools or the top schools. By being in matriculation you chance of getting JPA sponsored medical courses especially in public universities is very high as compare to STPM. After all if you are going to fulfill the JPA scholarship you will be working in Malaysia and the salary you get is the same. You also get the same opportunity for post graduate training. With JPA scholarship you are given priority for the limited job vacancies as well. I would advised those who want to be doctor (without paying your own) to get your medical seats through matriculation, no need to be obsessed to the top foreign schools as long as you get a medical seats even in public universities. Going through STPM will be frustrating because of the ‘unfair’ system as compare to the matriculation.. You have to play along with the system. But if you think you are good enough for those foreign universities but do not intend to pursue medical courses in public U, then it is better don’t take he matriculation. I have nothing against STPM, I myself get the medical seat through this but now STPM is obsolete for those who wish to pursue medical degree especially if you want a gov sponsored courses. Your aim is to become doctor regardless which universities you are going with minimal personal cost.
Not all best students will be enrolled in Matrikulasi. All the best bumi and non-bumi SPM students will opt for KPM Bursary/JPA/MARA/Yayasan in hope for overseas sponsorship. For bumi, the second tier will go for Asasi and the third will be selected for Matrikulasi. Even the poor one will go for government vocational and technical colleges and STPM is always as last resort. For non-bumi, not all best SPM students will be accepted into Matrikulasi. Many brilliant 10 straight As students are rejected but some with 5A and 5B are accepted. Matrikulasi is for above average students and definitely NOT for the best students. Ironically, 90% of the 3,000+ 4-pointer students are from this 1-year program as compared to the much tougher 2-year STPM.
Matriculation and Asasi enrollment are not based on academic performance alone. I have vast experience on this as I involved in the school activities and got a lot of feedback from MOE and headmasters. My point is do try to apply, don’t disregard this option. STPM should be your last option. The number of SPM all As are obviously more, so some will be disappointed. Also don’t be so naïve to believe that KPM Bursary is a guaranteed promise by gov as situation may change when you finish the Pre U courses. You can obsessed to insist to study in oversea U but for me what matters is to maximize you chance of getting the university seat even though it is public U. Again my opinion is on medical seats only.
@jtl wat do u think of medical education in india comparing it with malaysia own medical education
which has d upper ground in producing good dr
India suffers from the same affliction as Msia, ie, lots of med schools, all 381 of them, both public and private, with very variable standards. (for perspective, 0.32med college/million population compared to Malaysia 1.33/million, UK 0.51/million and Australia 0.84/million). The top ones are on par with the best in the world, eg Christian Medical College or All India Institute but are notoriously difficult to enter. But foreigners mostly go for the private ones, and generally the lower ranked easier to enter ones. And it is still not easy to enter and expensive, as the number of places for foreigners are controlled, to be eligible for MCI recognition.
For Malaysia, stick to established med schools.
There is no doubt at all that india’s medical education is way above malaysia’s.
1.I think It is a must for Indian private medical colleges to have a teaching hospital before they can operate a medical college. In Malaysia those with political strings can easily get licence to set up “shop house medical colleges. And with the same political strings…the private colleges get approval to do clinicals in govt hospitals.
2.In India only the cream of the cream can get a seat into govt medical & dental colleges. They have special entrance exams to qualify for a seats.
In Malaysia as long as students have the minum Bs & Cs can get admission to private medical colleges.
3.Private medicals colleges are few in numbers in India (ratio to population).
In Malaysia any politician with connections & ‘money” can get licence to start a medical college.
4.In India patients are plentiful to do clinicals on. In Malaysia i hear they have to use ‘dummies’ to teach. (In Malaysia the final year dental students in private dental colleges have to scout around their uncles & aunties & friends to become their patients…to their quota of patients. )
5. In Malaysia so many of the foreign degrees are recognised by the governement. In India they are very strict….eg. foreign degrees holders need to seat & pass for local medical exams bfore they can be recognised.
6. Btw, in india housemen are not paid…they are just given a nominal allowance. Our housemen are pampered and paid rm4000+ (gross) just to learn.
These are just a few comparisons.
lol at your sixth statement. paying houseman is not a reason to label them pampered. u made a few rather factual comparisons before arrogantly show-casting your own shortcomings in the very last comparison. and no, houseman are not just there to learn, they do pretty much other stuffs too.
the biggest mystery haunting me regarding med schools in malaysia is how is it the colleges with low entry requirement (i.e. almost all private medical colleges except monash and numed which follows their main campus’ requirement) has a much higher passing rate than those universities with high-ish (not that high compared to other countries) minimum entry requirement?
and what roles (if there’s any) can mmc play to stop this from continue happening?
That is not true. The cut off in the Malaysian campuses are a lot lower than the parent campuses. Eg, you cannot even think about getting into Clayton with anything less than ATAR99, but Sunway takes in people with 92.
The MMC has no role in determining how students are examined and passed in the respective med schools. But if the proposed MMLE is introduced, and conducted fairly, it can help sieve off the weak students.
still way higher than many other colleges minimum entry requirement.
and i was talking more specifically on their minimum entry requirement (which you can read from clicking the following link) rather than what normally constitutes their large share of students.
Click to access monash-medicine.pdf
There is no point talking about ‘minimum qualification’, as you NEVER get in with that. The reality in Oz is, the general guideline is, minimum ATAR90, but you have zero chance of getting into any undergraduate entry med school if ATAR is less than 95, and for Monash Clayton specifically, no chance if less than 99.
On the other hand, Monash Sunway cannot fill all available places, so they will select from the bare minimum to try fill as many places as possible.
Actually, the most ‘difficult’ IPTS medical programme to get into is actually the IMU-PMS stream (strict capacity control and partner schools requirements), where the de-facto minimum is 95 and AAA. Even then, it is relatively easy, as it’s not difficult to get 95, even easier to get AAA, and if you apply early, or are willing to defer to subsequent intakes, AND most important, can show enough funding, you will get an offer. No such thing as ‘selecting the best’.
Monash Clayton for international students definitely >ATAR99.
Even for home students, it’s something like ATAR99.70 onwards, and very high UMAT scores. All med students in the clayton campus are the creme de la creme of Year 12 (and equivalent).
You CANNOT get into medicine in Clayton with ATAR90.
There’s also no point of starting your comment with ‘that is not true’ then.
i read from the Monash University, Melbourne website that they offfer 60-70 places for medicine for international students. Does that mean that the chances of getting in is good given that the fees in Australia is now exorbitant and there arent that many Malaysian students stdying there compared to the past? There seem to be more Malaysian students to UK nowadays.
One can certainly apply, no harm done. 😊
Sir which college is better in terms of quality of teaching quest uni or melaka manipal college?thank you
Quest has not produced any graduates yet. Thus, difficult to talk about quality
Most Quest University’s lecturers are from AIMST. Since AIMST’s syllabus and examination collaborate with the University of Bristol UK, Quest is also following suit.
The 418 mystery has finally been revealed. The real figure is 919 which is inclusive of own students taken in by research universities under its autonomous intake status. Cabinet has agreed to allocate an additional 100 seats this year to make it to 1,019 as compared to the current maximum quota of 1,550.
“Cabinet has agreed…” Enough said, I suppose.
There could be a sudden drop in medical graduates in 5 years’ time as private universities intake this year are also in the region of 1,000 although MMC control the quota for private universities intake as 1,500. Except Manipal, AIMST, IMU and MAHSA, all the other private universities’ intake are less than 50 as those non-medical based private universities have focussed on their other courses that bring higher revenue at lower operating costs. Probably student’s interest has also switch to other courses and the trend has swayed towards dentistry, pharmacy, IT related engineering and even accountancy courses because of the current booming economy. Another factor is that newspaper reports have been highlighting the over-supply of doctors beginning next years.
Don’t forget the ~1000 from Russia, and another ~1000 from Egypt. And when Malaysia reaches the ratio it aims for, ie 1:600, probably in a couple of year’s time, it only needs about 3000 new doctors a year. Turning off the IPTA tap doesn’t solve the problem, without addressing those in Russia and Egypt.
Since the opening of so many medical universities in Malaysia with tuition fees of slightly above 200K plus and with the assistance of PTPTN loan, there is almost no student interested to study in Russia anymore, except for dentistry course. Somehow, student still need to undertake Russian language study to prepare themselves for clinical stage in the hospital. According to the medic agency in the recent education fair, if they can manage to recruit 30 student this year, they would be very happy already. I am also doubtful of the numbers in Egypt as these student are all on scholarship and a large numbers have returned halfway through the course due to the political situation there. As what Karen said, definitely there will a drop in medic student over the next 5 years as both intake in public and private universities have shrink over the years.
It is also due to the MMC minimum entry criteria.
There is always a lag of 5-6 years, so we will still receive large numbers of graduating students from Russia, and presumably Egypt, as the political situation there has stablised. If the enrollment has dropped from now, the effect will only be seen 6 years from now.
The main reason for the drop of enrollment is not the cost, but the lost of opportunity with the MMC minimum requirements. This has affected both IPTS as well as mills in Russia. A parallel example is the nursing colleges enrollments, where in some colleges, it dropped 80% with the Nursing Board’s requirement of 5 Credits in SPM.
These phenomena tells a lot about what kind of students had been getting into medical and nursing schools in the past.
As I predicted!
y did u specially stress on russia and egypt, there r many other countries where malaysian r doin medicine as well. eg india, czech, poland, nz, aus, uk etc
Because of the numbers. The numbers in the other countries are small.
sorry what number
Can you comment on aucms college?i got offer over there (mdaucms)..how is the condition there?…i heard many negative things about the college…is it true doc?
The answers are in this blog. I had commented several times over the last 4 years. My answer : don’t bother.
Good day Dr.Paga,
I got an offer from UNSW to do medicine and from IMU to do dentistry…
What is your opinion?
If you are interested inmedicine and wants to migrate later, go for UNSW
The medicine course in UNSW is 6 years i dont know why…Do you have any idea why?
While the dentistry course in IMU is 5 years.
Even in Russia , it is 6 years in some universities
i truly believe the answer is dont go bro..
Why do you say dont go?
Because it is an intergrated BMed MD program! You could have easily found this out yourself.
*integrated
What is the difference between BMed/MD and MBBS?
Is BMed/MD better?
I dont see the use of BMed/MD which u have to spend an extra year..but what benefit do you get?
U study 5 yrs MBBS or 6 years BMed/MD you still end up as a doctor..what difference does it make?
It is more for research purposes. In some countries where there is no guaranteed job for doctors, it becomes useful.
They are training doctors for Australia, so you have to see this from an Australian perspective. It has always been a 6 year programme in UNSW, to qualify for the Level 9 in AQF (on par with the graduate entry pathways), they have decided to split the course into 2 stages. That allows the awarding of a ‘new’ qualification of MD, so they have AQF Level 9.
If you have any intention of working outside Malaysia, go UNSW.
Asia Pacific Global Health Conference open for registration for medical practitioners.
http://apghc2014.aimst.edu.my/apghc/index.php/2-uncategorised?start=4
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point number 5 he should’ve said private university instead of public
[…] 2 days ago, while I was enjoying my Deepavali holidays with my parents, I read the news below in The Star. Yet again, MMC has issued warning to CUCMS not to take students beyond what they were allowed. I wonder what happened to UKM when they took in all the AUCMS UKM students. Did they also overshoot their quota? Whatever it is, UKM definitely have bigger facility and bigger number of academics. According to MMC, UKM is allowed 200 students per year intake as what was mentioned HERE. […]
[…] universities were also asked to reduce their intake last year. Remember the magic number 418 which turn out to be a “moronic” statement by a deputy minister? The total intake for […]