For Future Doctors: Step by step approach to subspeciality in Medicine
I received a lot of queries regarding the steps and timeline to do subspeciality in Malaysia from various budding doctors who are about to complete their undergraduate degree. Even though I have mentioned some of the steps in my earlier articles under the “For Future Doctors” series, somehow a more detailed explanation seem to be warranted. So, in this post I will write in detail on how to become a Physician and subsequently a subspecialist. I will not touch on surgical speciality.I will write this article in a “frequently asked question” format based on questions that was asked by these budding doctors in my blog.
1) What is MRCP?
MRCP (UK) is a diploma offered by Royal College of Physicians of the United Kingdom. In UK, it is an entrance exam to speciality and everyone needs to pass MRCP in order to pursue their speciality training. In Malaysia, MRCP is considered as an exit exam where upon finishing the exam and completing 18 months gazettement process, you will be considered as a General Physician. MRCP is an internationally recognised degree and widely accepted worldwide.
2) How is MRCP conducted?
MRCP consist of 3 parts. MRCP Part 1 consists of 2 papers of 100 questions each. It covers basic science as well as clinical questions. The questions are multiple choice questions (MCQ) with “best of five” answers. You are eligible to sit for MRCP Part 1, 12 months after your graduation and medically employed. This means that you need to complete at least 1 year of housemanship before sitting for MRCP Part 1.
After passing your MRCP part 1, you will be given 7 years to clear your Part 2(written) and Part 2 (clinical). You can sit for either of the Part 2 exams at any time. If you fail to clear both this exams within 7 years, you will have to sit for Part 1 again.
Part 2 (written) consists of 3 papers of 90 questions each. The questions are multiple choice questions (MCQ) with “best of five” answers.
Part 2 (clinical) is a clinical/practical exam. It consist of 5 stations assessing you on history taking, physical examination, making a diagnosis, investigations, management and communication skills. Station 1 and 3 will have real patients with physical signs of cardiovascular, respiratory, abdomen and neurology. Station 2 is on history taking and Station 4 will be on communication skills of explaining certain medical diagnosis to patients etc. Station 5 consists of 2 brief clinical scenarios where you have to take a brief history and do quick physical examination and come to a diagnosis, simulating a scenario in a day to day clinic.
3) What are the passing rates of MRCP?
Generally, the passing rate of each part of MRCP is about 45-50% worldwide. Very rarely, a person passes all the part in first try.
4) How long will I take to clear MRCP?
If you pass all the parts in first try, you can complete the MRCP in less than 5 years; the best will be 4 years after graduation.
5) What are the other options in becoming a Physician?
The only other option in becoming a Physician is to do local Master’s programme by UM, UKM or USM.
6) I planned to work in medium-sized hospital in Sabah or Sarawak to learn as much as I can without too much competition (HO overflow). but your advice is after I pass part 1 and 2 MRCP, I should apply for transfer to bigger hospital for training purposes to handle part 3, even if I’m in a rural hospital?
First of all, there are only few hospitals in Sabah and Sarawak which can take housemen, namely Kuching, Miri, Sibu, probably Bintulu soon, Queen E and probably Sandakan/Tawau hospitals soon. Rest of the hospitals do not have consultants to supervise housemen. As long as the hospital have consultants and has adequate training facilities for junior doctors, you should be able to sit for MRCP. Unfortunately, only major hospitals have adequate specialities for you to train as a physician. You must understand that MRCP is not just an exam for you to sit and pass without adequate clinical knowledge. You can sit and memorise all the textbooks but you will not be able to pass MRCP if you do not practise clinical skills. As far as possible, you need to undergo rotations in various subspeciality units to get adequate clinical knowledge before sitting for MRCP. Rural hospitals do not have subspeciality units for your training. That’s the reason, it is better to do your training in big general hospitals.
Furthermore, you need a supervisor who can testify that you are fit to sit for the exam, especially for Part 2. Thus, you need a proposer who can certify that you have undergone adequate training to sit for the exams. After passing all the parts, you also need a MRCP holder of at least 8 years to sign the testimony to receive the diploma.
7) What is gazzetment process?
Since MRCP is not a specialist exam in UK, Ministry of Health of Malaysia has made it compulsory for you to complete 18 months of gazzettment process before being recognised as a specialist and to receive the specialist allowance. Thus, after 18 months of further training in a tertiary hospital, you will have to get your HOD to recommend you to be gazzeted as a specialist. The gazzettement period can be shorter on a case by case basis depending on your duration of training before passing MRCP. This will be decide by MOH gazzettement committee.
8) After the gazzetement, what’s next?
How do I apply for sub-specialty training? Where do I apply? Can I apply while I’m still under the gazzetement process? Will I be accepted as soon as I apply, or it’s subjected to seats availability? In short, I would like to know about the sub-specialty training, and maybe as specific examples, you can tell me the route on to cardiologist and neurologist.
After gazzetement, you can apply for subspeciality training via Ministry of Health. Depending on the field of subspeciality that you are applying, the waiting time can vary from few months to few years. Popular fields like cardiology and gastroenterology take the longest time to get a training post. At the moment, subspeciality training in Malaysia can only be done in Ministry of Health hospitals or University hospitals. Only certain hospitals are designated for certain training. For example, cardiology training can be done at Penang Hospital, Serdang, Kuching and JB, as far as I know. Neurology is usually done in HKL and Penang.
Most subspeciality training in medicine is for 3 years. Usually, you need to do the training in 2 different centres. The final year can be done as an attachment overseas and you may be given a fully paid scholarship by MOH. From 2011 onwards, you need to sign a contract upon confirmation of your training post in subspeciality by MOH. You will be bonded for 3-5 years depending whether you do all your training locally or partially overseas. Previously, you are only bonded if you choose to go overseas during your final year.
All in all, it will take roughly 10-12 years upon graduation for you to become a subspecialist.
9) If I got accepted by Singapore as MO post-MRCP, is it certain that I will be absorbed into the sub-specialty training after 1 year? After I have completed my specialist training in Singapore, is my license recognized in Malaysia, and is my license recognized internationally for that matter.
There is no guarantee that you will get the subspeciality training post in Singapore. It depends on your performance and which field that you are choosing. If you stay long enough, you will get it, as long as you show interest and your superiors support you. Subspecialist training in Singapore is a very structured training programme and well recognised internationally. There is no problem for you to return to Malaysia as a subspecialist.
10) Is Malaysian specialist license recognized internationally? And what are your recommendations for internationally recognized sub-specialty programmes post-MRCP?
This is a difficult question to answer. Whether another country recognises our subspeciality training depends on that particular country. Generally, our local Master’s programme is NOT recognised elsewhere except for some Middle East countries. So, it is very likely that as a Master’s holder, you will not be able to work elsewhere as a specialist except on attachment basis. Certain countries like Australia have their College of Physicians to assess the particular consultants experience and then will decide whether you can be recognised as a sub-specialist.
11) What is FRCP?
After 8 years of holding MRCP (UK), you can apply to the respective college for FRCP(fellow of the royal college of physician). To be accepted into a college as a fellow, you need to have contributed a lot to clinical medicine and medical educations. Publications in journals are also important. Furthermore, you need a proposer who is a FRCP holder to propose you to be accepted as a fellow. The respective college councils will go through your CV and publications before deciding whether you can be accepted as a fellow. Being a FRCP holder gives you an international recognition in medical field.
For more info on MRCP, please visit http://www.mrcpuk.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/MRCP_Regulations.pdf
Pagalavan's Avatar 
phew, now i know how long the training is. Thanks for the info btw
Thanks doc for this great article.
im final year medical student.i still have some inquiry about MRCP.
1)Can we just take MRCP and the gazette but didnt complete the subspecialty training?what line of job can we get if we didnt complete the subspecialt?
2)if i want to be an oncologist,what is the steps for it?
3)after i get the MRCP can i go to work in uk?
4)how much is the cosot to sit for MRCP?can we get a sponsor?
1) you can work as a General Physician/Internal Medicine Specialist after gazzettement. However, in private sector, the prospect is better if you have a subspeciality.
2) You need to do Master’s in Oncology
3) you can work in UK after MRCP but you must remember that MRCP is NOT a specialist exam in UK, only an entrance to speciality training.
4) Part 1 and 2(theory) can cost about 555 pounds each and Part 2 (clinical) is about 1000 pounds. The current exchange rate is about RM5, if I am not mistaken. The more number of times you sit, the more it will cost. NO sponsors!! you own money, my friend
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
thank you for all info that you have shared to us.
i just wanted to know, other than Master’s in Oncology in Malaysia, what can be other pathway to further for Oncologist?
Is there any like MRCP/MRCS but for oncology. Is it like FRCR?
Thank you very much for your respond doctor. 🙂
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Not that I know of. FRCR is for radiologist. However there are some radiologist who sub-specialise in oncology radiology.
thank you doc for answering my question.i have further question.
1)You said that MRCP is an entrance to specialty training in uk,that means we have to do a specialty training for about 3 years to become the general physician.am i right?so if i have done the subspecialty training in malaysia and become cardiologist for example and want to work in uk,is it is recognized by GMC or not?do i have to sit for a test again?
2)if i finish doing my housemanship here in uk,and want to come back to malaysia to work as MO is it acceptable or do i have to start again as house officer?
3)What subspecialty training that u will recommend for me after taking the MRCP?
thank you again doctor.May GOD bless you.
Usually, in UK, after you complete your MRCP, you can gain entry to your field of subspeciality training. After becoming a cardiologist, it is up to the GMC whether they recognise your training as a subspecialist and how many years you have practised as a cardiologist. You may need to show some proof of your training. Same like in Australia, where the colege of physicians will decide whether you can recognised as a cardiologist.
Even if you have finished your Housemanship in UK , you need to complete the remaining postings in Malaysia(as housemanship is 2 years in Malaysia) before they give you the full registration, unless you come back after MRCP/as a specialist.
What subspeciality you choose, you can decide after completing your housemanship!! I had many friends who wanted to become this and that during student’s time but ended up doing something else. You will only know your interest after you start to work. Student life and working life is totally different!
Dr Pagalavan,
I was thinking of taking master degree for Physiology after graduating, and perhaps, work in the academic world. Could you please point out the roads to get there? thanks!
you need to do Master’s in SCience (Physiology) programme offered by some of the local universities.
Dear Dr Pagavalan,
a very great update on this! I heard that one should have at least 4 years of medical experience and waiting for another 18 months post MRCP before one can apply for gazzetement. meaning to say if a candidate completes MRCP 3 years after graduation (including housemanship 1 year,MO ship 2 years),he has to wait for another 3 and half years!
what is your comment?
your 2 years MOship is considered as part of the 4 years. Out of 18 months, the first 12 months is also considered as part of the 4 years training. Means you will only have to add another 1 year additional and not 3 and half years! However, most people will take atleast 3-4 years post housemanship to complete all 3 parts of MRCP. Generally it will be just nice.
Allow me to comment on this as well. As me too, have enquired it with the ministry officers.
The criteria set in the DG circular (many years ago….can’t remember but it was before year 2000), you need to have 4 years experience in the speciality you are requesting for gazettment. Meaning to say, you need 4 years being in medical department before being allowed for gazettment upon completion of MRCP (ie. the 18 months). But 12 months out of the 18 months can be counted towards that 4 years experience requirement. Meaning you need to make sure you are already 3 years in medical department before completing your MRCP so that the moment you have passed, it will be just right. The final 6 months of the 18months are the actual gazettment period. Sometimes, if you have experience in the district hospital as MO, it can be counted towards your 4 years experience as well.
Well, having said that, there may be exceptions, but who and how one is exempted, I do not know. Maybe Dr Paga can shed some lights on his experience with this?
Dear Dr. Paga, may I ask you for comments on various pros and cons of each subspecialities available in Malaysia. For instance, cardio, gastro, hepato, haemato, endo, rheumato. With more and more sub coming up, like palliative, geriatric, rehab, etc….it becomes difficult to choose your sub. I do agree, it boils down to what you want to do. But will be glad if you can spare some time, discussing on these subs, its prospects in govt and private, its workload and environment, and of course job satisfaction.
Thank you
As part of the 4 years of experience requirement for completing MRCP, can the 2 years of housemanship be counted in? and 1 year of MOship. and since you have the first 12 months of gazettment will also account for this.
you need to ask MOH for this, As far as I know, only 1 year of horsemanship is considered.
Thanks for your information. Do you know whom to deal with in MOH after passing MRCP? Should we need to inform MOH immediately after passing MRCP?
Yes, you need to inform the Bahagian Perkembangan Perubatan immediately after passing MRCP. Only then you gazettement process starts. You may also be transferred to another hospital.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for wriitng!
Dear Pagavalan..
I want to ask u regarding the MRCPCH programme..
(1)if i take the MRCPCH paper one year after my housemanship…and i am posted to other departments (not paediatrics) during my medical officer..is it included in the 4year requirement??
(2)And if i pass my MRCPCH all parts..can i work at other country like australia to earn my specialist title without the 18 months of gazzetement at MOH?
(3)If i am able to work at other country to earn my specialist title..is it recognised in Malaysia or I stil have to undergo the gazzetement if I want to come back Msia to work??
Thx…hope to hear from u soon!
1) not necessary, it must be paediatric posting
2) NO, Australia do not recognise MRCPCH or MRCP. In Singapore you can get a registra post.
3) If you are already a gazetted specialist in another country then it depends on your seniority and the tupe of postgraduate training. I know some who came back from Taiwan were asked to do certain months of gazettement in government hospitals.
Dear Pagavalan..
Sorry for keep on asking you questions..
(1)your answer for my question number one is it mean i nt necessary have to be in paediatrics department for 4years or it must be necessary??sorry because i do not understand the way u answer the question….
(2)So which paediatrics programme does Australia recognise?
Reali sorry for troubling you to answer my questions..but i really need some to enlighten me..thanks!!
You need to be in the paediatric department. Furthermore, you can’t sit for Part 2 if you do not have certain amount of clinical training in paediatric.
Australia only recognises their own postgraduate degree and those who completed CCT in UK.
Hi Dr,
Is it true that you cannot do your housemanship and MO training in the same govt hospital? I was planning to do my housemanship in Penang GH and stay on there, but heard from some friends that you have to choose a different hospital after that. I understand that you will need to do the rural posting, but can I go back to Penang GH after that and continue on as an MO to carry out MRCP training?
Thanks!
Yes. Most doctors who completed housemanship will be transferred out. AND there is no guarantee that you can return to Penang GH after your rural postings. With the increasing number of doctors , this situation will get worst.MOH wil decide on where you will be posted.
hello Dr Pagal,
happy new year,
heard a lot about subspecialty training. rumour has it is that post gazettment as a physician we still have to wait for 2 years to be eligible to apply into subspecialty training, is it true?
had try to ask for the specific circular saying so but not avail
some flip flop policy again?
now there are news that newly gazetted physicians been posted out to secondary hospital and east malaysia. well that’s true
pls enlighten
thanks
Yup, I heard you can only apply for sub 1 year after your gazettement. Depending on your sub, it may take another additional 1 year.
Hello, Dr. Pagal,
After passing the MRCP, can i go to UK for specialist training since it is an entrance exam for specialisation?
As for the training in UK, we can ask for sponsorship from government right?( although i think that we’ll be bonded for the whole life for jpa scholar)
Thanks. 🙂
You can apply but the chances for you to get a post is very slim due to UK immigration laws implemented since 2007.
No, government do not sponsor you. Only when you are in the MOH subspeciality training programme, you may get sponsorship to go overseas for the final year of your training( which is 3 years)
Hi Dr Pagal,
I am now still a medical student. Concerning about the master programme in Malaysia being not recognised in other countries, I am wondering is it possible for me to do MRCS in Malaysia but FRCS in the UK?
If I am going to just stay and work in Malaysia, do you think it is better for me to do my master and training in Malaysia, rather in the UK? What can I do if one day I want to work in Singapore?
Thanks.
Getting a job in UK is not easy due to immigration law. Getting into their training post for speciality is even more difficult nowadays due to stiff competition from EU citizens etc. That is the reason why many are returning to the country. With the local Masters, you can’t be recognised as a surgeon in any other country. You may be able to work as a registra. MRCS may be helpfull then.
Dear Dr,
Since getting a job and training post is difficult nowadays in UK as what you had advised. Would appreciate your comments : –
(1) At present, I understand that all Malaysian medical students are still allowed to do their internship in UK to enable them to register with the GMC. Do you have the statistics on how many of these young doctors could not get a hospital posting upon completion of their 2yrs internship and will force to return home?
(2) In the event these young doctors have to return home since there is no job in UK : –
(a) Is there any guarantee that all of them, if not most of them, will fare better than all our locally- trained in UM, UKM or IMU in term of career advancement?
(3) Are their success rate of passing MRCP, get a place in our Master Programme,and promotion, etc, etc. are higher than most of our locally-trained?
(4) that all of them, if not most of them, need not work/study hard to pass MRCP or any other pre-qualifying exams for specializations compared with all our trained locally just because their degrees are more recognized by other countries, such as Singapore?
(4) Will our Malaysian government give special preference to these group of UK trained young doctors ? such as postings to bigger hospital, a higher salary, faster promotion? Better allowances? since they had spent million of Rgt in their overseas training? (their own money without scholarship from the government).
If the answers on the above are all “No”, then it is my personal opinion that it is not worth spending million of Rgt just to get an internationally recognized basic MBBS and at the end of the day you cannot get a job in UK..
A medical career is a long and winding road, I read your link on the steps to steps to sub specialization which is very informative to all our young doctors, I believe with determination, those locally-trained doctors will be as successful as these overseas- trained doctors who cannot get a job in UK, without having to spend million of Rgt.
I know it is the prerogative of an individual who chooses on how to spend his money as long as he can afford. I am therefore not referring to the rich who can afford to spend million of Rgt, but rather on those who spend all their life saving money sending their children oversea for medicine, but at the end of the day, their children cannot get a job in UK or Singapore and have to come back to Malaysia.
What say you, Dr?
Williams
1) I don’t really have the statistics but from what I gather, more and more of them are coming back after housemanship in UK. The very competent ones may be able to get a job there.
a) There is no guarantee in terms of carrer advancement. It depends on how good you are and the oppurtunities.
3) Generally, most graduates who graduated from UK would have sat for MRCP before returning to Malaysia( atleast Part 1& 2). The passing rate is usually higher when they are trained in UK. In terms of Master’s and promotion: no difference.
4) Generally as I mentioned above, most UK graduates would have cleared their Part 1/2 before returning.
4) NOPE, our government do not give a damn. The bigger cable you have the better posting you will get. Welcome to Malaysia! The salary, promotion etc is the same like any other government servant in Malaysian civil service.
I have always said this : spending huge amount of money or taking huge loans to do medicine is worthless. You will never get back the money. Having said that, when the situation in Malaysia gets worst with no job oppurtunity, having a well recognised degree will open more doors for you. Of course, nothing is guaranteed in life. In near future, almost all countries will have surpluss of doctors. BUT countries like UK, Australia are producing just enough doctors for themselves unlike Malaysia which is overproducing with no quality.
Hi Dr Paga,
I’m interested in specialising in family medicine, can you please give me some insight about the pathway to obtain it? Any subspeciality involving family medicine? Thanks~~
Either Master’s in Family medicine or you can try FRACGP , conducted by the Academy of family physician malaysia. you can visit their website for info
Hi William,
I have many friends’ children working in Australia or UK after their MBBS. Many of them did not get into specialization even after many years staying on there. They remain working in the sub-urban or rural hospitals and some of them are on contract basis hopping from one hospital to another hospital.
Being an Asian PR over there, they also face discrimination just like our quota system here. It is not true that they earn more as doctors there and live a better life there as compared to our doctors here in Malaysia, the reasons being : –
(1) Their tax margin is very much higher.
(2) They may earn Aussie dollar/pound but their purchasing power is the same as those Malaysian doctors earning ringgit par to par in terms of cost and standard of living. Bear in mind that the cost of living there are very much higher, especially in UK most cannot even afford a car as petrol and parking cost are very high compared here in Malaysia.
Unless you are earning Aussie dollar or pound and spending them in Malaysia. This is the reason why many western tourists like to have holidays in Malaysia because they can spend like the rich and famous back home.
(3) I know only very few of their children get into specialization. They are the lucky ones just like those Malaysian doctors here get into the master program or pass their MRCP, etc. Of course they also worked very hard to achieve this.
(4) In fact my friends said the Aussie Hospitals are cutting down the overtime/allowance of housemen just the same like here.
Since they are not returning home as specialist category or scale so there is no special treatment or exemption for them. It is made worst when they have to compete with the younger Msian doctor here in term of length of service for promotion, etc. So most prefer to stay on there (as chronic doctor or on contract basis ) because they have no choice. It is not true that they stay put there because they earn more and live a better life than Msian doctors here.
My message here to all aspiring doctors, either you are overseas-trained or locally-trained, if you want to be a doctor, you should take it as a profession of your choice to make a living for yourself or your future family (everyone must work to make a living, unless your family has left you a big fortune), not so much that you will earn big money being a doctor trained overseas and then stay put overseas.
Dr Paga is locally-trained, but he made it to be a Consultant Physician & Rheumatologist and I believe he had made a lot of hard work to achieve this.
Karen
Excellent points. Just a few quick notes:
(1) Yup, tax hits 48% after awhile.
(2) Cost of living is not very high at all. You missed out on the BIG thing: Property prices. They are seriously seriously insane. Expect to slave off to pay the mortgage.
(3) Specialization is difficult regardless of which country you are in. In most countries, you need to be accepted into a college (or association) of specialists. And they rightfully guard the high standards of the profession. Getting into a program isnt hard, but completing all the requirements is a royal bitch. You also need to pass rigorous exams….both written and clinical to be accepted into the club of specialists so to speak.
(4) Cant speak for UK hospitals, but Australian hospitals are under pressure to _NOT_ overwork anyone. There are very strict guidelines on what happens if someone (not just clinical staff) work overtime. The unions are strong. Enterprise agreements negotiated by the unions are to the effect that once you work overtime, they literally pay through the nose for your services. Currently, even at PGY1 (intern) salary rates, overtime pay is 2x normal pay, or ~AUD$60/hr (RM180/hr). This is the real reason why they dont like giving people overtime…and understandably so.
One difference between these countries and ours is the price of education. Most of these countries give free education to their citizens. Thus, many do not mind paying the high tax as they do not have to worry about their children education.
Hi Ms Karen, thank you so much for your insightful sharing.
I am currently a final year medical student in Monash and was in dilemma for the past few months thinking about applying for internship in Australia because I am a government scholarship holder.
Reading this post almost 9 years later since Ms Karen posted, can I ask is the situation in Australia is still the same as what you had mentioned 9 years ago? Can I ask for your advice?
Thank you so much Ms Karen.
The situation is still the same as far as training post are concerned. In fact there are many consultants who are without a full time job in Australia, surviving either by part time job or locum. However, if you do get an internship post in australia, atleast the first 3 years is guaranteed. No guarantee that your contract will be renewed or you will “definitely” get into a training program. Some had to try for few years, especially in fields that are popular like surgical etc. To give you an example, for Western Australia, there are only 7 Obstetrics training post available yearly , out of which only 1 is reserved for male! Consultants who are finishing their training are not getting any full time jobs. There are surgeons who are surviving by just jumping from one hospital to another doing locums.
Even those (Aussie PR) who can afford to buy a house there will usually stay very far in the suburban because the house at suburban is cheaper. My nephew who is a Malaysian graduate and was transferred there 5 years ago, works as an engineer in Melbourne city. He stays 40 km away from the city and travels daily by train to office. He said life is boring but not so hectic and stressful as back home because there is no overtime. But he prefers to work overtime and get some extra income. They used to have a maid in Malaysia but now everything he and his wife have to do themselves. His is a PR now and his reasons of staying put there is for the future of his three young children, in term of education and job opportunities.
I do not really agree with him. I have friends who had spent huge sum of money getting PR status for the whole family and their children also managed to get into the public universities there. But upon their graduation, many prefer to return home because they cannot get a job related to their course or of their liking (most commerce, computer and finance related). Worst still, some of them when they are back home in Malaysia, they also do not get a job of their choice.
I was in Australia this March, I met a Business Commerce graduate doing part time as hotel cleaner to get some pocket money. She is a Chinese Australian (born there). She has been looking for job for many months. I also met a science graduate who works (born there too) in a Chinese restaurant because she is still waiting to get a job related to her course.
Life in overseas is tough unless you migrated there with lot of money. The situation there is the same like Malaysia, many international students and PR graduated in Aussie but do not get a job of their choices even though they have recognized degree and results. In fact, most of my friends’ children are graduates of the group of 8. Being a PR there, it is also not easy to get critical courses like medicine. It is very competitive just like getting a place in Malaysian public university for medicine.
Of course there are some very successful cases but they are the lucky ones. My message here is to some parents, please do not spend all your life-saving money sending your children for an overseas education regardless of what courses, with the hope that they will fare better in term of life and career. There is no guarantee. It is when one enters the workforce, his personality and work attitude matter the most. and also a bit of LUCK and opportunities.
There simply isnt any free lunch anywhere…
What alot of people dont realize is that once you take away the privilege enjoyed in Malaysia (being upper/middle class), you will have to compete with other similarly privileged people.
Even in the absence of discrimination, many middle-income chinese students find it genuinely difficult to get a place in Medicine. Why? Because intakes are small relative to the number of applicants. It’s competitive and there’s no discrimination hooray! But dont forget, you are competing against other middle class people born and raised locally (Australia/UK/US). It’s not Malaysia where it’s relatively easier to be in the top 1-2 percentile –> In Malaysia, if you can afford tuition etc your grades will be above the rest.
The “middle class” advantage is gone when you study abroad… as you are competing with alot of average middle class joe’s and jane’s.
Medicine is still bloody competitive to get in, and being in the top 1-2% of graduates is genuinely harder in first world countries. Even in the absence of discrimination, there is no guarantee you will get in and there is quite a bit of hard work involved.
I dont mean to sound elitist or anything like that, but in my opinion, there seems to be a small percentage of people (irrespective of race) who are bright and capable. A smaller portion of this small percentage would be genuinely interested in medicine… and they are the diamonds in the rough that medical schools try to recruit –> hence the interviews and high academic cut-offs.
Yup, nothing is guaranteed no matter where you graduate from but being a graduate of a well recognised university do give you an advantage.
There are + points to own a well recognized degree for non-medical courses like banking, law, commerce, IT, etc, as the private sectors always prefer to recruit overseas-trained graduates, especially the banks.
It is not necessary for medicine if you are genuinely good and interested in medicine. Eventually all have to work in the government hospitals to pass their internship, to sit for the numerous rigorous written and clinical exams before they can quit to private hospitals as a specialist.
As for private medical schools, if you can afford, try to go for those more established medical schools. IMU is established. Monash I think is alright too even though it is new. Both their fee are expensive but still cheaper than go overseas, or Perdana University, Rgt 800,000 for its undergraduate MBBS (Ireland)! How about living cost for 5 years away from home? They claimed that the tuition fee is high because the lecturers are ‘imported’ from 1st world countries.
Even if you have a MBBS from Melbourne or Edinburgh but being a non PR or citizen, you may get an internship, but training posts priority will be given to their citizens who are from the 2nd tier medical school. As it is most government policies. Also if you are a citizen but an overseas- trained MBBS, when you apply to do your HO back home, the postings will be given to those citizens who do their MBBS locally, if there is a housemen glut, So. you ‘rugi’ -lah!!!
As for courses that allow you to work in private sectors upon graduation, it is a different issue. if you are from Oxford or Harvard, obviously you can compete well with the local (Aus/UK/US). Even so, most governments are using immigration laws to restrict the employers so as to protect the interest of their citizens. If you are returning home to work, then it is fine.
So for those local MBBS who are ambitious to go far as a specialist or want to migrate to other countries, just sit for all the required exams and you may make it. It is not only our local MBBS is not recognized elsewhere, most countries MBBS are not recognized elsewhere too. Even if it is a well recognized degree, you still have to go through some training in that country, unless you go there as a specialist. So why feel so bad about ?
At least there are exams for you to realize your dream, even though they may be very tough, as what Mint Berry Crunch said, there isnt any free lunch anywhere. Even with a well recognized degree, you still have to sit for MRCP, etc, etc before you can be a specialist. You are not exempted from those exams. So work hard and cheers, if medicine is your passion!
Want to ask about working in Singapore. I’ve just passed my MRCP, how’s the training in Singapore for the specialist? FYI, I’ve only 2 years experience of MO and 2 years HO. Which post can I apply? MO or registrar? How can I be a specialist there later?
I have answered this somewhere else. Passing MRCP does not make you a specialist in Singapore. You can get a MO post. Depending on the availability of post, you may get a specialist training post later. No guarantee.
Dear Dr,
Thank you for beneficial info delivered earlier.
I would like to clarify..
I am not on General Medical or Internal Medicine field.
I have served in anaesthesiology for few years..
Recently i have made my mind thinking to further study in medicine ie sitting for mrcp.
Can i sit part 1 and part 2 if i still in other deparrment apart from general medical itself.
I have come across few friend doing the same thing and prior aitting for part 2 clinical/PACES they apply for medical.
The resons will be varied.some from other hospital smaller and some as had been posted after ther housemanship.
Can u please email me the clarification Dr.
Thank you so much for your info and advice.
Dr Rabiatun
You can sit for Part 1 and Part 2 without being in medical as they are theory papers. But you must be in medicine for PACES. Furthermore you need to have 4 years of internal medicine training before you can be gazetted as an internal medicine specialist
hello Dr.pagalavan…i’m doing my housemanship in one of the hospital in malaysia…i intend to do psychiatry course even during my med school time.is it possible if i want to specialisation in psychiatry in overseas and then come back n work in malaysia…meaning i’ll be leaving housemanship for the time being…n if let’s say if i manage to complete my specialisation,do i need to do my housemanship again?tq.
If you leave housemanship, you will get into trouble unless you complete the housemanship overseas. Thus, I would advise you to complete your housemanship first. Whether you can come back and call yourself a psychiatrist or not, depends on whether your training is recognised in this country.
Dear Dr,
how to apply mrcp (uk) part 1 in malaysia center?
i am a HO in Msia.
asking on behave of a friend,
in order to specialized in family medcine, if she (HO, 2 months left) did not want to go through master programme, the only way is through AFPM.
but in terms of application: when can apply, when can sit for paper etc is not clearly stated in the web site. Like mrcp (such that part 1 after 1st year HO). which is clearly stated. Do u know any detail about it?
to my understanding, she had search the AFPM web site but cant find any detail about it.
thanks and have a nice days.
The AFPM programme is a 4 year structured programme via long distance learning. You need to be fully registered with MMC before applying for the programme. After 2 years, you wil sit for an exam to receive Diploma in Family Medicine. After another 2 years you will need to sit for Part 1 and if you pass, you may sit for Part 2.
contact UM medical faculty
Greetings Dr. Pagalavan,
Just to ensure that I got my facts correct to plan for my kid’s education.
1. The MRCP examination is conducted in Malaysia, right?.
2. After graduating with an MBBS/MD degree from a local private university, and after serving the required number of years as you have written, the candidate can seat for the MRCP locally in UM, UKM and USM, right?
Best regards,
hi, great parents!
how i wish my parents will plan for me… haha
1. yes
2. yes but i am not sure how is the pathway of application… waiting for expert’s reply…
nice days
1) Yes, once a year and once a year in Singapore
2) MRCP is only conducted in UM
Greetings Dr. Pagalavan,
I am trying to search for your respected writings on doctoring in the military (Malaysian Armed Forces) but unfortunately I fail to find one. Perhaps I missed out some posts. Please do let me know if you have written on the subject matter.
If not, then, perhaps, you would want to write one. Since there will be a glut of doctors in the non military sphere, perhaps, serving with the armed forces is an option. How does one go about being a doctor in the armed forces and what are the carrerr path in terms of specialization, sub specialization etc.
Best regards.
At the moment, housemanship cannot be done in Military hospitals. You still need to complete your housemanship in MOH hospital before applying to ministry of defence hospitals. There are not many military hospitals in the country, less then 5. They do sponsor their doctors for specialisation at local Master’s programme but depending on their need. Eg: i was told that they do not sponsor anymore doctors for Master’s in Orthopaedic as they have enough orthopaedic doctors. They use to have a better salary scale before but it is the same now.
Thank you very much for your kind responses.
Dear Dr,
I understand that the medium of instruction in private medical school in Malaysia is in english, how about public medical schools, is it in BM?
English
Thanks, Dr.
Hello Dr,
I am currently working in the UK as a medical SHO (3 1/2 years post graduation), and have got my part 1 and part 2(written) exams. My husband has just received a great job offer in malaysia and is contemplating coming back home.
My questions are:
1) since I did my housemanship here (medical, surgical, ortho, A+E, ITU), at the current level I am, will I have to do HO rotations in gynae and paeds, even though I clearly want to do internal medicine?
2) If I return to malaysia with my MRCP (inc PACES), will I be able to skip doing the HO rotations?
It is better for you to come home after completing PACES. Then you just need to do the gazettement process. If not they may ask you to complete the remaining HO postings.
Without the O&G rotation, you will not be registered with MMC. You need to complete this rotation which is a compulsory posting.
Thank you very much for your input doctors.
Poor Doctor, does that mean that even if I have completed PACES, I will still need to complete the O&G rotation to register with MMC, and then do the gazettement process?
I know a few with MRCP who were exempted by MMC.
That one probably is a senior doctor not fresh or recent MRCP holder. My hospital got a senior cardiologist from Singapore and accepted by MMC for full registration without the need of HOship or compulsory service.
Usually they must have worked for about 5 years overseas
dear dr,
im a medical student from a private uni in malaysia. I entered the uni with O and A levels results and am wondering if that will pose a problem in aplying for housemanship in malaysia later. As from what i see from SPA official site, they need a SPM at least for application.
May I ask if applying for housemanship in another country is possiblle after getting the medical degree from malaysia? thank you
What you need is atleast a credit in BM paper to enter a permanent job in government service. Thus, you need to sit for BM paper.
None of our medical degrees are recognised overseas except UM/UKM is recognised in Singapore and Monash in Australia. Thus, if you have any other degree, you can’t do housemanship anywhere else.
dear sir, is there an alternative to the standard BM SPM paper? And when is the best time to take the exam?
thank you for your attention
It has to be equivalent to SPM paper. You can sit for the SPM BM paper anytime.
Sir, I do have a Bahasa Melayu in O levels, is that equivalent to the SPM BM?
was it a national level exam? If so, then it may be considered equivalent.
Thank you very much for your replies sir. Have a great day
Yes, I took the exam at a national level. Thank you for your replies, they helped alot. Have a great day
Dear Dr,
Im interested in enrolling for MRCP exams during housemanship. Can I request for your expert advise? I would also like to do housemanship in Sarawak hospital. Does it help in the preparation for MRCP exams later.
Thank you again for the time and attention.
MRCP Part 1 can be sat 1 year after graduating.
It does not matter where you do your horsemanship
Hai sir, when u think a person should start prepping for mrcp? Immediately at the start of housemanship?
Up to you!
Or how long it took u for prepping?
For Part 1, atleast 9-12 months
Received with thanks
dear dr. pagavalan,
i really appreciate your blog as it keeps me up to date with the malaysian healthcare developments.
i just want to ask, what are the most needed specialties in malaysia for the moment? i did a hospital attachment in kuching last year and i was told that there’re only 2 chest physicians in the whole of sarawak which sounded quite outrageous.
i’m currently inclined toward orthopedics, gen surgery and emergency medicine and am prob gonna try complete my specialty overseas first before coming home to serve. what might the prospects be like for those specialties and would they be helpful in msia or are there too many of such specialists already?
hope the questions aren’t too bothersome!! >.< would really appreciate your input though! thanks so much! 😀
Btw, wd chest physician means? Cardiologist? Cardiothoracic surgeon? o.0
Probably Respiratory or Pulmonology?
Respiratory physician
Every speciality is needed at the moment but situation may change in the future. Ortho is the least needed.
Yes, we are short of chest physicians. So do Haematology, oncology etc etc
Why Ortho is the least needed ?
Is Malaysia producing too many othopedic surgeon ?
How about demand for general surgeon ?
I have answered this question before
erm.. if am not mistaken..
cardithoracic is a subdiv of surgery: cardiothoracic surgeon…
cardiologist n chest physician is both subdiv of internal medicine sp: being cardiologist those related to the heart; MI SVT n bla bla…
chest physician is the respiratory systems mainly: the PTB n lung ca all these…
Yes
thanks a lot for the input! sorry for the confusion, i did mean respiratory physician.
i managed to locate some of the comments for emergency med, surgery and ortho. you really do get a lot of similar questions! i feel bad for posting mine before attempting to search. though the comments were spread out over multiple different posts.
it was mentioned in one particular comment thread that ortho is the most popular masters program in msia. am quite surprised because this is not the case where i’m studying (hong kong). may i ask why it is that ortho is so popular in msia? (hopefully it hasn’t been discussed somewhere else already)
and what about trauma surgery? in some countries like australia and the u.s., trauma surgery seems to lean toward that of general surgery while in hong kong and probably the uk, trauma surgery is more within the subset of ortho. is it a popular subspecialty in msia and it more to the ortho or gen side?
much thanks! 🙂
It is popular in Malaysia because it is considered one of the easiest field and easiest money making field. We have the highest road traffic accidents in the region!
WE have trauma surgeon in both general surgery and orthopaedic surgery. They usually form a team. However, this is only applicable in government hospitals. In private, every ortho and general surgeon will also claim they are trauma surgeons.
Thank you for the kind informations Dr.Pagalavan
im here would like to know wether,i can sit for MRCP if i didnt do any internship
upon graduation?
i have followed my husband right after graduation to US,i passed my USMLE step 1 and 2 but didnt get any position in match..im thinking of doing MRCP order to back malaysia.
Do i need to step as houseman in malaysia order to apply for MRCP?
can you please advice me?
I think u need some kind of certification that u are already an mo to take mrcp 2. Which means u must do internship.Im not sure though. I thought the usmle match is not yet?like in a few months time?
it is not easy to get matching nowadays.
As far as I know, you can only sit for MRCP Part 1 after 1 year of service/internship
Hi, Dr.paga. This might sound out of topic but can you state which job in healthcare department that is currently in demand? And do you think law offers a bright future?
Medical Law
Iam a specialist in obstetric and gynecology, I have had Arab board of health specialization since 2009 ,with 17years experience in Tripoli medical center in Libya. and Iam a lecturer in medical faculty in Tripoli university. I came to Malaysia Kuala Lumpur with my husband who is working in kuala Lumpur ,and we will stay 4years in KL. I want to do subspecialty in infertility ,Please advice me how can I do that. And what is my chances to get a job in one of the government hospital or as a lecturer in one of the universities in KL, And do I have to had a approval from the Health ministry . thank you in advance
sincerely Dr Laila
Firstly, you need to check with MMC whether your basic degree and postgraduate degree is recognised in Malaysia. If not, you will not be able to get a job in malaysia.
Greetings! Hi Dr. Pagavalan! I’ m the columinist from the School of Medicine, UMS. We are currently selecting interesting articles and blogs in the medical field to be included in the school magazine and we think that your writing is enlightening. Do you mind if we insert some of your articles from this blog into our magazine? Thank you!
No problem
Greetings dr!
Im from Pakistan , completed my mbbs in the year 2012 , i would like to know what if ive cleared mrcp part 1 from Pakistan or Singapore .. would i be allowed to do a 2 year training in Singapore at any healthcare setup for mrcp part 2?
thanks!
Your basic degree must be recognised by SMC
If someone want to be a breast surgeon , is it necessary to have postgraduate studies or MRCS and FRCS is enough ?
You are totally confused. You need to do local Master’s to become general surgeon first after which you need to undergo 3 years of subspecialty training in breast surgery
Hello dr. I am a medical student doing the local mbbs course in IMU. I came across your website and would like to ask is it possible for me to do my housemanship in aus if im a pr once i complete my degree. And if its not, what are the steps i need to do in order to work back in aus once i complete my houseman ship here in malaysia. Do i just have to sit for an entrance exam or what? I would really appreciate your help in this issue. Thank you very much.
Your degree is NOT recognised in Australia. You need to sit and pass the AMC exams but it does not guarantee a job in Australia Eventhough you have a PR. Housemanship here also do not give you any advantage.
Can I work in Singapore with MRCP part 1?
Nope, you need to complete all MRCP and get the diploma first
I have written before on the subject of Masters from overseas. I have met an Indian National working as a lecturer at a local University who has a MBBS and a Masters from India. His basic degree is accredited by MMC. His comment is that if a person has a basic degree accredited by MMC then his Masters will be recognised.
I am an engineer by profession and I have come across many Indian nationals lecturing at local government/private universities who have a basic B.Eng degree from India recognised by the Board of Engineers and a Masters/PhD in Engineering also from India. Their comment is the same as that stated. If a basic degree is recognised then the second degree is recognised. As you are aware not all B.Eng degree from India are recognised by the Board of Engineers as in the case of the Indian MBBS.
Now the question does this regulation apply also to the Medical field or is it just confined to lecturers.There are a number of foreign doctors from Indian Subcontinet. I am interested to know how as India does have competitive exams for the Masters and it is not that easy to secure a place at postgraduate level.
You have given information on Masters from India and I need your information
For lecturers, it is a different story as majority of them do not do clinical practise. However, Masters from India is recognised in Malaysia if you have more than 5 years experience as a specialist.
If you fail the mrcp part 2..should you bother to query the results? Do people pass after they query the results?
Not that i know of
Dr Pagalavan,
You mentioned it took you 9-12 months to prep for mrcp part 1. How about part2? Also, besides online courses and tests, do you have other reading material or books to recommend to prep for part 2?
It took 3 years to complete Part 2 and 3! Books are available if you look around. Try going to kamal bookstore in KL or UM bookstore
Hi, I m Dr gyan bhatt from Nepal. I have completed MBBS and MD in internal medicine from Nepal. Now i want to go for MRCP. I want to know which are the possible countries where I can work as an specialist doctor after completion of MRCP and how difficult it is for me. Thank you .
MRCP is not a specialist degree. You can’t work anywhere as a specialist
Dear Dr. Pagalavan, I am so glad to found this blog. Just want to ask. I completed housemanship and MO in a district hospital. Had worked for 3 months in general medicine and 2 and 1/2 years as MO in general medicine. subsequently worked about 1 year in Singapore before I completed my MRCP PACES examination. I was told by a frient that after passing MRCP one will need 18-24 months for gazzettement 2 years working as general physician than can apply local subspecialty training. Is it true?
I understand that only after gazzettement, only then can one apply for NSR certification. If I were to work in Singapore for 18 – 24 months post MRCP, does MMC recognize this period as gazzettement? Also if I were to work at a subspecialty department but not able to get into the subspecialty training, will i be able to, with my log book, apply for subspecialty training in Malaysia? Thank you for your information.
After MRCP, you will need 18 months of gazeetement process before being gazetted as a specialist. Total training in medical department should be about 4 years.
After being gazetted as a Internal Medicine specialist, you can apply for subspecialty training. The current rule says that after 1 year of being a general specialist(post gazettement), you are eligible for subspecialty training. However, when you will actually be accepted into the program depends on waiting list.
Your post MRCP training in Singapore can be considered for general specialist gazzetement. BUT, it can only be done in KKM. However, subspecialty training is a different story altogether. Since you are not officially in any subspecialty training program in Singapore, it does not matter whether you have any experience. You need to start from the beginning. Furthermore, subspecialty training is only given to KKM doctors. You need to come back and join the service again.
Hi Dr pagalavan, UM grad here. If I complete my HO and Internal Medicine junior residency in Singapore, can I registered as Internal medicine specialist in Malaysia? If I join back KKM, can I apply for IM subspecialty in Malaysia?
Please see my earlier reply about recognition. With the current situation, I doubt KKM will provide any job to those returning from overseas. There are already people waiting in a Q for subspecialty training.
Please read one of the comment that appeared in my latest post as below:
“Hi Dr Pagalavan. Reading this post and the comments gives me such heavy mixed feelings. It’s sad to see our country lose another brilliant brain. But I understand your predicament.
Im a Malaysian graduated Med school in Australia in 2010, went on to do housemenship in Singapore and continued working there for 8.5 years. Was accepted into Residency (specialist training) Program in 2014, completed MRCOG Part 3 in 2017. In mid 2019, after completing 5 out of 6 years of residency training, I relocated back to Malaysia for good for family reasons, and have been applying to work in Malaysian public hospital since. I need another 9 months of post-qualification working experience, which I believe is known as gazettement. This application has taken 3yrs and I’m at a total lost, having not worked in Msia before, not familiar with the system and not knowing many ppl, and not being able to find a formal resource/guide as to how to navigate getting a job here. The few personal contacts I have who have some knowledge/personal experience, all have different paths and outcome that are not applicable to my case. I’ve gone through MMC, APC, NSR, SPA, KKM but not one who can clearly direct me on the steps I should take. Felt like I’ve just been pingpong-ed between them. Coming from a super-efficient, meritocratic Singapore, this is extremely humbling. and frustrating. Do you have any insight or advise on how I should go about this?”
Hello Dr Pagalavan,
I am very glad to have seen your blog. I am a medical officer currently working in Singapore for last 4 years. I am just wondering how easy it is/possible to get a gazettement in Malaysia after my MRCP now? Is it possible for a foreigner to get into Sub-speciality like cardiology or Gastro-enterology in Malaysia after gazettement?.
Thank you very much.
Are you a Malaysian? If you are a Malaysian, you need at least 4 years training in medicine and 18 months gazettement. Foreigners will not get a post with surplus of doctors now.
NOPE, our subspeciality program is NOT open for foreigners.
Hello.
I would like to ask.
I just recently graduated from medical school and am currently waiting for my housemanship posting in Malaysia, and upon completion, i am intending to move to the UK with my husband (UK citizen).
I plan to become a Pediatrician sometime in the future.
So my question is, what do you think is the best way for me to do this?
Shall i do MRCPH in Malaysia and then move to UK?
Or finish my housemanship and Part 1 of MRCPH in Malaysia and then move?
or any suggestion?
Firstly, your degree must be recognised in UK. If not, you will not registrable in UK. The other option is to complete MRCPCH in Malaysia and then apply for a job in UK. The chances of getting a job in UK is very slim for foreigners but your husband’s status of being a UK citizen may be helpful.
Dr pagalavan
I am Dr prakash from india .I graduated mbbs from china in 2012 . Then after I had worked in various hopitals . now I was looking forward to specialise in radiology. please advice on chances and procedure of me getting admission in MD radiology course in best malaysian institute .
Thank you .
Malaysian university takes very minimal number of foreigners into their Master’s program. Furthermore, your basic degree must be recognised.
You can contact the respective universities for further info. Please be reminded that you need to go back to your country after the Master’s program and thus your country need to recognise your post graduate degree.
Hello Dr Pagalavan,
I’m currently in my final posting for my housemanship. I have received few offers to continue my studies for Master in Neuroscience in universities in UK. It has always been my dream to venture into academic world. However, there’s few questions that I would like to ask.
1) What’s the prospect of career as lecturer in Malaysia? Is it difficult to enter? Do I need to have big cable as well?
2) if I quit after finishing my housemanship, and later after I come back to Malaysia, if I wanted to, can I apply for my job back as medical officer? Or do I have to restart doing housemanship ?
3) While waiting for the courses to start in next September, I have received some offers as research assistant in UM. Can that consider as
part of 2 years of compulsory service? Prior gaining the APC.
I intended to do my PhD in UK as well and plan to come back after that. However, I do enjoy being a doctor, and want to keep all options open as possible.
Thank you.
1) IN fact it is much easier to get a lecturer post now compared to housemanship!. There are just too many medical schools with not enough lecturers. However, I would suggest a public medical school.
2) You only have to complete your compulsory service of another 2 years. IF you quit now, you will never get a permanent post. You will only be given contract MO post. However, please remember that MOH is running out of post! However, any civil service can be considered, not necessary a MO post, a lecturer post un public university can be considered as well
3) Is it a civil service job or just part time under UM? If it is part time under UM, than NO, it is not considered. Please also remember that having a Master’s in neuroscience and PhD do NOT make you a specialist. You will only be considered for non-clinical lecturer post for preclinical students. If you intend to work as a clinical doctor, you are just equivalent to an MO.
Hi there……I’m currently doing my mrcp exams…..taking my part 2 in December so probably another year before I take my paces…..is it true that there are rumors in Malaysia they might de-recognize mrcp as a specialist program…….meaning mrcp holders can’t proceed for gazzetment to become a specialist?
This rumours has been going own for more than 15 years! At the moment, due to shortage of specialist, our DG is encouraging doctors to choose the alternative pathway if can’t get into Master. Please remember that if I am not mistaken, it is mandatory now to register your self with MOH upon passing Part 1. This is to allow MOH to monitor your training and I heard they are coming up with a log book and compulsory rotations.Please enquire with MOH bahagian perkembangan Perubatan
Hello.
I would like to ask.
Is it possible for me to take the 1st part of mrcp after graduating right before starting my housementship training. if yes what would be the requirement needed?
Nope, you must be in service/practise for atleast 1 year as far as I know
Dear Dr Paga,
If i have passed PACES and yet to be gazetted, will holding MRCP qualification helps to recognize me as a specialist in the public university while training as a lecturer? I’m interested to further studies in pharmacology. Thanks.
You still need to be gazetted, eitherby MOH or the university
Hi Dr Paga,
I have a friend who left paed dept, currently at OPD. Now planning to pursue Paed specialist. This friend do not know how to proceed, wonder if you can guide on what the options are to do this? Also is there any age restriction to pursue paed specialist field? Thanks!
For Masters , you need to be not older than 45. Other option is MRCPCH
hi dr pagalavan,
im currently waiting for my housemanship (most probably in 3 months time). after finishing HO and MO im planning to do local masters programme instead of mrcp. is that possible. im planning to work in malaysia only. interested in pediatrics and rheumatology. do i need to do mrcp? can u tell the guidelines of becoming a pediatric/rheumatologist. if i do local masters prgramme, is it self funded or by gov? thank you for your valuable time. i really appreciate your blog. i have been following it past 2 years. keep up the good work sir.
I think I have answered all these in my blog. Please read under For Future Doctors page, especialy in post graduate studies. If after reading, you still do not understand, than ask me again.
ok sir. i will read it and get back to u. thanks
I think you should spend some time reading this blog in full, under For Future Doctor’s page. ALL the answers are clearly explained.
Local Master’s are usually funded by JPA via MOH. FYI, housemanship waiting time now is about 6-8 months.
thanks sir. after reading the blog i understood.
I am a foreigner and I have completed my MRCP. Now how can I get job in Malaysia? and what about usual pay?
Ministry of Health of Malaysia has stopped providing jobs for foreigners. Private sector are only allowed to take foreigners if they can’t find a local to fill the post. Completing MRCP do not make you a specialist.
I guess situations are quite difficult now. Earlier it was kinda easy to get a job with Mrcp degree but in current situation without experience plus degree you will have nightmare
hi Dr Pagalavan.I am a international medical graduate and my degree is not recognized by SMC Singapore.I have completed my 1 year housejob. Do SMC runs a qualifying exam to get registered.What are the career opportunities for me over there.What exam can I give for postgraduation.thanks
Yes, of course. All medical councils in the world run qualification exams. Singapore follows residency system. NO one can tell you what will happen but preference will always be given to locals and PRs when it comes to postgraduate training post.
But i have contacted SMC through Email and they are saying there is no such qualifying exam.They only recognize basic medical degree of Agha khan in Pakistan.What should i do.Can I apply for MMED or masters in family medicine over there.Thankyou.I’l be grateful if you help me out.
Every medical council has their qualification exams. However, if a country decides not to accept any unrecognised degree for employment, than they can decide as such.You can’t do MMED if you cannot be registered in Singapore. Thus another option is to do MRCP/MRCS in your home country and then apply to Singapore.
Hi,Dr,I would like to ask about the China’s fudan 6 years mbbs and 8 years DOM. Since malaysia accepts both so what will be the path for 8 years DOM to go for speciality in medicine in Malaysia? Present I have offer from fudan for 9 y DOM but still considering between the local Newcastle and fudan.
No different than what everyone will need to go throu. A graduate programme do not give any advantage in Malaysia at the moment
Many Thanks Dr for your reply, I would like to get your advise on the reputation of Fudan and Newcastle among the specialist group and also please give your opinion about the 2 schools if I want to follow the speciality path, considering Fudan accepted by Malaysia & S’pore whereas Newcastle only in Malaysia. Please also share your view for the future scenerio in Malaysia.
Please read my blog from A-Z under For Future Doctors page. ALL answers are there. The specialist path is the same for both program. The only advantage of Fudan will be the ability to get employment in Singapore.
Hi dr Pagalavan, i am medical doctor currently working as GP in Indonesia, been working for 4 years in govt hospital and now i am planning to pursue master in anesthesiology in USM. Is it true that after graduating as anesthesiologist from USM i wont be able to work in Malaysia ?
Generally yes, unless USM wants to employ you in their hospital. If your undergraduate degree is not recognised by MMC, you will be given temporary registration for the duration of training only. After which, you need to go back to your home country, unless you can proof any employment offer from Malaysia.
Dear Dr Pagalavan, I’m a medical graduate currently waiting for housemanship (the waiting time for me could go up to 8 months post-MBBS, unfortunately). I have been interested in doing MRCPCH and I have a couple of doubts. Could you please kindly enlighten me? Your replies will be highly appreciated.
1) “You are eligible to sit for MRCP Part 1, twelve months after your graduation and medically employed. This means that you need to complete at least 1 year of housemanship before sitting for MRCP Part 1.”-quoted from your blogpost.
Does the statement above apply to MRCPCH part 1 also? this concern arises because the waiting period for housemanship would already have taken 8 months (or more) after graduation from MBBS, am I only eligible to take MRCPCH part 1 one year after housemanship commences? (total of 1 year 8 months post- MBBS) Or I can take 1 year post-MBBS?
2) Do I need a supervisor who can testify that I am fit to sit for part 1 MRCPCH? this concern arises because I am wondering by the time I would like to apply to sit for MRCPCH part 1, I have not gone through the Paediatrics posting during housemanship.
3) Is it true that with the MRCPCH Part 1 results in hand (a pass), I can try to “escape” being sent by MOH to random hospitals including rural postings? Can I try to apply to stay in paeds departments in any urban tertiary hospitals? or hospital where I completed my 2 years of housemanship (if it is a tertiary hospitals)?
Thanks very much in advance.
Dear Dr Pagalavan, I’m a medical graduate currently waiting for housemanship (the waiting time for me could go up to 8 months post-MBBS, unfortunately). I have been interested in doing MRCPCH and I have a couple of doubts. Could you please kindly enlighten me? Your replies will be highly appreciated.
1) “You are eligible to sit for MRCP Part 1, twelve months after your graduation and medically employed. This means that you need to complete at least 1 year of housemanship before sitting for MRCP Part 1.”-quoted from your blogpost.
Does the statement above apply to MRCPCH part 1 also? this concern arises because the waiting period for housemanship would already have taken 8 months (or more) after graduation from MBBS, am I only eligible to take MRCPCH part 1 one year after housemanship commences? (total of 1 year 8 months post- MBBS) Or I can take 1 year post-MBBS?
2) Do I need a supervisor who can testify that I am fit to sit for part 1 MRCPCH? this concern arises because I am wondering by the time I would like to apply to sit for MRCPCH part 1, I have not gone through the Paediatrics posting during housemanship.
3) Is it true that with the MRCPCH Part 1 results in hand (a pass), I can try to “escape” being sent by MOH to random hospitals including rural postings? Can I try to apply to stay in paeds departments in any urban tertiary hospitals? or hospital where I completed my 2 years of housemanship (if it is a tertiary hospitals)?
Thanks very much in advance.
1) You need to check this with the college
2) Again, please check the MRCPCH website. Rules changes all the time
3) No such thing. MOH can still send you anywhere but you can request to return to a tertiary hospital for your training after 1 year in rural/district posting.
Is the cut off age to apply for masters training in malaysia 45 year old for all specialties?
Yes
thanks. do they give preference to younger ones (if both applicants are under 45)?
the other question is, could i apply for masters training without any work experience in malaysia? im a malaysian graduated in the UK with 5.5 years of working experience in UK.
Not that I know of. There are many other factors that will be considered , like SKT marks, rural postings and interviews.
Generally Master’s post is allocated for those who are working in MOH and Universities. There are some post given for private students where you need to pay your own fee. So, the best is to be working here.
Hi Dr pagalavan,
I have resigned from kkm and doing freelance locum.currently,i am planning to join a private hospital as MO.can I still pursue mrcp? what are other POSTGRADUATE course can I do?
Thank you dr
You can sit for Part 1 but after that you need to reapply to KKM as you can’t sit for Part 2 without clinical experience. Furthermore, you need to be in KKM for gazettement. The other post graduate course you can do is Family Medicine under Academy of family physician.
Thank you Dr. What about joining university hospitals? Can I still pursue mrcp?
Hi Dr,
Could you please point out the pathway to become an anesthesiologist?
Masters in anaesthesia is the only pathway at the moment . MOH is working with Ireland anaesthesia college to accreditate training centres in Malaysia.
So after taking masters in anaesthesia, will I still need to complete residency training or will I immediately be gazetted?
6 months gazettement process
Thanks for replying. After completing MBBS, I will have to undergo 2 years HO before applying for master’s is it? Do I need to take mrcp exam?
I think you should spend some time reading this blog. All the answers are ALL here. You can only apply for Masters after 1 year of MOship. MRCP is to become physician.
I’ve read that if u do master’s programme in local unis, you will be bonded for 5-7 years because of the compulsory JPA scholarship. Does this bond applied to master of anaesthesia too?
Again, thanks for being helpful in answering my questions.
Yes of course! All Masters course is the same!
Hai Dr. Pagalavan
Thank you so much. I am happy that i came across this blog. I am a MBBS graduate from a recognized institute south India (Tamilnadu). I have completed my MRCP 2 written exam and PACES is pending. I am currently doing a 5 year PhD course in Neuromuscular disorders. It is a half clinical and half research based training programme and i have already finished 3 years. I will finish my PACES also within a year. I have read in the NSR guidelines that for Neurology training programme, MRCP is an eligibility option. I am interested in moving to Malaysia for 3 year residency in Neurology and settling there after that if possible. Am i eligible for that training as per NSR guidelines?. Can you guide me sir. I am planning to apply after 2 years of my PhD
Many Thanks
Fistly PhD course do not make you a specialist neurologist.Malaysia do not provide jobs and training for foreigners. Some university hospitas may consider but the chances are slim. There are only 3 university hospitals in Malaysia. With the oversupply of doctors in Malaysia, unlikely you will even get a job.
Thank you very much for your reply sir. I know that my PhD will not fetch me a neurology specialist there. But after I finish my MRCP along with PhD, are there any slim chances of getting into the 3 year neurology residency training program as mentioned in the nsr guidelines.
Thank you
Definately NO under Ministry of Health .
[…] For Future Doctors: Step by step approach to subspeciality … – For Future Doctors: Step by step approach to subspeciality in Medicine I received a lot of queries regarding the steps and timeline to do subspeciality in Malaysia … […]
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I graduated from Ireland, and have just completed the MRCP UK exams. I’m interested in specialising in Infectious Diseases. I have done a year of ID registrar job in Dublin and did research in Healthcare Infection. Can you advise as to which pathway I should take for ID training? Are there any particular universities in Malaysia I can apply to?
Many thanks
Hi dr.
1) Please tell that after completeing MRCP1, 2 and Paces we will be able to do 18 months gazettement at MOH hospitals or after mrcp part1 we can apply for it?
2) which body/institure do we have to inform and get information to get a place for gazettement? Please give the exact link or contact number.
3) hope all this is for foreigners too. As I am in malaysia after completing my housemanship from my country and preparing for mrcp right now.
Kindly answer for my queries. I will be highly thankful.
Foreigners are not employed by MOH anymore. So, since you will not get any jobs in Malaysia, no point even considering it
Doctor, After Complete my MRCP , I want to move in Dubai.Before Move to Dubai ,I want to complete my training in a subspecialtie .Which country available for training and from where I can get easyly training post..If I want to training in cardiology in uk ,Which criteria is essential other than MRCP…Plz tell me about the Medical career in dubai and salary amount….Thank u Doctor….
Hello doctor..im a 4th year medical student…im planning to be a lecturer n also im interested in ayurvedic..because i dont know how this works..please help me
A doctor cannot be legally licensed and practise ayurvedic!! You should have gone directly to ayurvedic medicine. Frankly, no evidence to say ayurvedic works! As for lecturer : you need to be a specialist!
Hello doctor,I’m still a med student,but I’m just wondering,how is the timeline to become a pathologist?
Timeline is the same as for any masters
good day Dr, do you mind to point out about the pathyway of becoming a pulmonologist in malaysia? any difference between MRCPI and MRCPUK?
I presume you are talking about chest physician? It is the same as any other subspecialty in internal medicine
Doctor I would also like to thank you for taking your time to clear our doubts. Thank you so much doctor , your post really helps student like me. Please do continue to share your knowledge with us
hello , Im on the way to finishing my MRCP i wan to know path way to become cardiologist ,should i choose Singapore or Malaysia or uk , which is easier and certain i read your blog it says need to wait longer for cardiology post but is it guaranteed that i will get it . thanks for your help in advance
Nothing is guaranteed no matter where you go. Having MRCP does not mean you will get a job in UK. It may give you a job as a MO in Singapore after which you need to compete with the rest for a cardiology training post. AS for Malaysia, you have to wait in a Q under KKM for the training post. another option is IJN.
Hello ÐŐČ thanks for reply I want to ask so in Malaysia I hv choice to apply for cardiology training then wait ? What is IJN
are you really finishing MRCP? you don’t seem to know how the system works! Firstly you must be gazetted as a general internal medicine specialist before even being eligible to apply for cardiology training. IJN: Institute Jantung Negara.
Thanks for reply , in aware about gazzetation 18 month in Malaysia and 2 yr in singapore , I’m asking about after tht ,sorry for misunderstanding I am confused to choose training in sgp or Malaysia bcos I want certain way to enter into cardio , if Malaysia 18 m + waiting list ( I want to ask if I hv choice to choose cardio for specialist training )
no matter where you go, there will be a waiting list.
Thanks for reply , if I do MD or some cardio diploma or echo will it make my application stronger I heared about this for U.K. But I’m not sure about sgp and Malaysia
I don’t think so but it may be of advantage for your own CV
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Im interested to pursue my subspeciality in paedriatric. Can i have the advice from you regarding whether to choose MRCP or MRCPCH?
Is it a total new process to start over if i do MRCP first then MRCPCH?
The requirement will be 4 years which means 1 year housemenship and 3 years including MO and gazettement. So to get proper training in paediatric firm, how many years do i have to get trained and will it be during MO?
Thank you 🙂
You are totally confused. MRCPCH is for paediatric, MRCP is for adult medicine. 4 years of MOship.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Wonderful post as always. I am a fresh local medical graduate & planning to take MRCP. What are my chances of landing a job in Singapore? As I would really wish to get a PR there for personal reasons.
Thank you
After MRCP, the chances are good to get a MO post. However, there is no guarantee that you will get a training post for specialisation.
Dear DR
Does MRCP UK provided partial exemption from FRACP (Australia) ? In other words, can the MRCP shorten the training period required of FRACP? I understand that the FRACP takes lomger to acquire than MRCP.
NO, MRCP is not recognised in Australia. However, if you complete CCT in UK with all training done in UK, it can be considered as comparable.
FRACP is an exit exam with structured training program, MRCP is an entry exam into speciality.
Dear Dr,
I just completed MRCP UK and interested in rheumatology, may i know how to increase my chance to get in this field and what reading materials should i prepare from now? thanks in advance!
Seow
first you need to complete your gazettement and apply via KKM for rheumatology sub. Other than that, just read for your own interest
Hi Seow,
can you help me registering with the exam centre for MRCP part 1 in Malaysia?
a detailed overview where to contact and what to do?
Thanks in Advance.
Hi Seow,
can you help me registering with the exam centre for MRCP part 1 in Malaysia?
a detailed overview where to contact and what to do?
Thanks in Advance.
Please contact UM medical faculty
Mrcp uk validity in australia
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Not valid
Like mrcp uk
There is any exam for australia other than amc to enter as post graduate basis .if yes then plz tell how to proceed
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FRACGP
There is any exam for australia other than amc to enter as post graduate basis .if yes then plz tell how to proceed like mrcp uk
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None except FRACGP for GP practice.
Dear Dr,
Im a Medical officer of 8 years total experience since finishing HO. Previously after HO I was in Primary Health care under KKM. I decide to join Private medical center 2 years ago and currently in emergency setting in private medical center. Is there any pathway for me to further for specialty in medicine or emergency? I tried to apply for dip family medicine under AFPM but rejected as im not seeing patient in family care setting. Is there any chance for me to further any specialty. thank you
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Unfortunately, once you leave KKM, the only option is family medicine under AFPM. Master’s program is almost closed for outsiders eventhough some slots are allocated for private candidates. You can still try to apply for AFPM but must commit to do primary care locum for certain number of hours. Working in emergency department is not considered as primary care.
Dear Dr,
I am h.o and interested to further my studies in Internal Medicine, and plan to sit for MRCPi . What are the differences between MRCP UK and MRCP Ireland?
Also I would like to know about the appropriate book needed to prepare for the exam part 1?
Please guide me. Thank you so much for the time.
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Both are around the same. There are a lot of books available for MRCP.
Hi.
M a foriegner. Please tell how to awit for MrCP in Malaysia? (plz tell.whole procedure)
Where to contact and everything and for gazettment where to go?
I just need corrwct contacts because people pass on to others and its vwey difficult to find the right contact.
Thanks alot.
Malaysia do not provide a job for foreigner. However the MRCP exams conducted by University of Malaya can be sat by anyone from outside malaysia. You can contact University Malaya Medical Faculty post graduate education centre for further information
hello
this is a very informative
I had a question
if i complete my 3 year of md internal medicine in my home country n finish mrcp ?
Wanted to know the carreer prospects after mrcp completion of 3 steps?
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Are you a local or foreigner?
Now i’m considering abt pursuing in pharmacy or mbbs, even though consultant said to me tad i’m suitable to take mbbs. coz i got no confidence to take mbbs. can u give me some advice, dr?
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I think it is entirely up to you
Dear Mr. JOHOR BAHRU
I am a British Citizen living in London.
I am a Medic graduated in Medicine & Surgery in Milan University Italy.
My practice permission is Italian too. Besides, I studied in Neurology in Bologna university
between 2000/ 2002 in Bologna university for 2 years of period ( I did not reach the top qualification in specialty ).
I wonder if I can continue my same specialization from where it was interrupted at your university or
I need to start over again. I wonder if you accept the years I studied ( 2 years in neurology in Italy ). How if I like to start over your some other specialty?
Is there any age conditions in your regulations to continue the specialty, because I am 52 years old now but I am still very ambitious?
If there is just no possibilities under my conditions I have, so I still wonder whether I can study the last years of my interrupted study paying privately?
Ultimately I wonder if I need any IELTS qualification with you as a British before starting?
I repeat again that , I am graduated in Medicine and surgery at the university of Milan(ITALY) and studied other 2 years in Neurology at the Bologna Universty
without reaching main qualification. Please give me the answer ASAP you can so that I can begin my study this year. Thanks
Mr. Dr. Gholamy
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Firstly, Milan University is not recognised in Malaysia. THus you will not be able to practice here.
What r the differences between physician and surgeon?
So, I can either choose to go for masters’ programme in local uni or taking MRCS to undergo subspecialty training is it
Please buy my books and read
Where can I have it?
https://pagalavan.com/2017/06/08/first-year-anniversary-sale-extended-till-june-2017/
I am asking this on behalf of my friend. What is the route to be general surgeon?
Please read my blog in detail or buy my books. All have been written!
Good day Dr Pagalavan!
No questions here. Just want to tell you how helpful you’ve been to A LOT of people. Thank you for taking the time to answer all these questions, no matter how obnoxious the get.
May God bless you!
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Thank you
After MRCP
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Hello I’m iNDiAN graduate mbbs
I want to ask after MRCP can I apply for gazzetatjin and subspeciality in MALAYSIA ,
Will I receive salary during that period ?, then after can I work in MALAYSIA
Malaysia do not provide jobs for foreigners anymore, as far as Ministry of Health is concerned. And you can only do gazettement and subspeciality in government hospitals.
Thanks for reply , after gazzetatoj can I work in private practice or hospital
you can’t be gazetted if you don’t get a job in government sector aka MOH. After gazettement (which is 4 years post MRCP), you need to be recognised as a specialist by NSR. You can only work in private after NSR and if you are a PR.
Thanks for reply ,
It sounds confusion. I can’t gazettes if I can’t get job in Govt and they are not giving job to foreign in Govt sect as u mention earlier ? Sorry but sounds confusing sir
Is it possible for foreigner to get into gazzetatiok easily and what shall one do after gazzetation finish if situation like this
It means you will NOT get a job and will never be gazetted . It basically means, you are not going to go anywhere in Malaysia.
Do I have hope to get job in singapore after MRCP , including gazzetation and subspecility , one thing I want to reconfirm u said haze ration is for 4 years ? I read somewhere about 2 yr thanks
The situation in Singapore is also getting tight. You can probably get a job but there is no such thing as gazettement in Singapore as they follow residency system now. Gazettement is 4 years of internal medicine training which includes recognised training before MRCP .
Thanks for ur reply ,
So after MRCP Which should be best place me to get job , then get into subspecikity and have a better life, is there any other country where I can go , thanks you are being very helpful
Better life?? I think you should seriously buy my books and read. Life only gets tougher in medicine. Whichever country that recognizes MRCP you can go BUT MRCP is NOT a specialist exam.
Thanks for comments from where I can buy ur book
please visit my blog post on the books ” hard truths of being a doctor”
Dear Dr Pagalavan:
I am a HO to be and wish to become a geriatrician in the future.
So I need to pass MRCP and also I came across SCE too which contains (MRCP-geriatrics)
So, for the advice to become a subspecialist in this field I need to pass both of them right?
Thanks in advance
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Geriatric is a subspeciality of Internal Medicine. So, you need to complete MRCP and than go into geriatric subspeciality training.
Thank you so much Dr Pagalavan 🙂
Hi,
Thank you for the guidance on many of your posts.
I am a Malaysian and I would like to ask if I am interested in Ophthalmology, or perhaps the only way to be an Ophthalmologist in Malaysia will only be by getting into the Master of Ophthalmology course, which exam should I take? Will it be FRCOphth or MRCP?
Thank you and I look forward to your reply.
Kind regards
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No such exam. You need to apply for Master’s.
Hello, DR. Pagalavan I just graduated medical school and I would like to be an
ophthalmologist so what is the next step i have to do?
Master in Opthalmology
HI Dr.
May I know if we have taken Masters in Int. Medicine and is already a specialist, are we able to take MRCP?
Of course, you can
Hi Dr Paga, I have found your blog entries very useful.Thank you.
I have some questions which I hope you can help me with.
I’m a Malaysian current finishing my PACES as a core medical trainee in the uk and am considering my option of returning home to pursue a potential career in cardiology.
No doubt I will be subjected to the usual gazettement process.Practically speaking, am i right in thinking that I can apply for full license to practice with MMC?use this as the gazettement period?
Any idea if there is a long waiting list to be recruited as an MO to enter the system? Am also thinking of applying before finishing my training here.
My understanding is cardiology training takes about 3 years as with most subspecialty training. Does IJN absorb candidates for specialty training after the gazzettement process? Bit anxious as I think about the questions.
Thank you in advance.
Unfortunately, the MO job post currently is almost saturated and I heard SPA is not recruiting anyone at the moment. In fact even those who are going to finish HO in 2020, 50% may not even get a post. That is the reason why MMC issued the circular last year that those who are more than 2 years of service overseas and unable to secure a position in MOH within 6 months of registration, can be exempted from compulsory service.
I would suggest you complete everything in UK rather than coming back.
You will get MMC full registration but getting a job is another issue altogether. If you do get a MO post, it may not even be where you want to be. Most available post currently, if at all, are in rural areas and East Malaysia. If you do not get a post in MOH, you will not be able to do gazettement to be a general physician. Of course university hospitals are another option. Since the new medical act 2012 came into force JUly 2017, you must complete proper training before being recognised as a specialist by NSR/MMC.
IJN do take post MRCP candidates BUT if you don’t get gazetted as a general physician, you can only be recognised as a Cardiologist if you go directly to IJN.
Thanks Dr Paga for the advice. I had no idea that the prospective training pathway can be so daunting. We really do need a miracle for the future graduating cohorts! Will the university hospital jobs be applied separately? I don’t mind East Malaysian posts if it’s just for the gazettement process if that’s what’s available to me. Out of interest, is there a way MRCP could get gazetted 18 months at the end of any subspecialty training , just to get general internal medicine -qualified too? Thought I’d ask since it’s something people do in the uk training system.
Yes, you need to apply separately for university hospital positions as it is under MOE. To be gazetted as General Physician, your need atleast 4 years of Internal medicine training, including 1 year post MRCP. Thus it is not just 18 months post MRCP. As far as I know, you can only apply for subspecialty training after being gazetted as General Physician.
Thank you once again for the insight you offered Dr Paga! You’ve been most helpful. Whole new different world. Wish me luck in the crossover !
hai dr pagalavan. Do you have any information regarding rehabilitation physician?
I think UM do have Master’s program in Rehabilitation physician
Hello Dr,
I have a different question here. I’m from Arts background, graduated in business and been working in business line for more than 10 years now. Lately I’m have develop an interest in medical line which science has always been my favourite subject. I am interested in studying MBBS here locally. But I have to fulfill the MMC requirement where I must have credit in all 3 science subject, Maths and any other subjects, go for foundation and then degree. As I was from Arts stream during high school, I have to retake SPM for all 3 science subject and maths this year and then foundation next year.
I am 39 this year and to calculate at least 10-11 years to complete where I’ll be 50 years old then. Here in Malaysia , will I ever get a chance to be a doctor after I completed at age 50 years. What is your advice?
Hi there, i undertook medicine as my second degree (so I was a postgraduate student) and graduated about 4 years ago now. It’s been a rewarding journey. If you really want to do be a doctor then it’s worth it! It’s not just a glamorous job so think hard about why you’re in it for! if you are concerned about finishing when you are a bit older, you may want to think about a medical specialty which will fit in with your life at that stage so that you will have enough time to enjoy a career that is quite demanding at the same time!
the situation will be different by the time he graduates compared to yours. No permanent civil service job, waiting period for housemanship etc. Master’s is not available for those who are above the age of 45. His speciality choices are limited and the chances of him getting permanent civil service job to undergo post graduate trainiong is very very slim. Other than primary care, he will not be able to do any other speciality.
Perdana University do conduct a 4-year graduate entry medical program which you may be eligible. Even Arts student can enrol. The MMC requirement you are talking about is for undergraduate program.
Having said that, you have to look at your life first. Are you married or single? Even if you manage to get into the program, you will graduate at the age of 44. Waiting period for Housemanship will be 1-2 years by then. By the time you finish compulsory service, you will be atleast 50 years old! You definitely will not be eligible for any Master’s program as the cut-off age is 45. You will also unlikely to get a civil service job. The only option is to open a clinic. Trust me, after 2020, the field will be flooded with unemployed doctors opening clinics everywhere. So, my advise is: if you are single and decided to remain single, then you can do whatever you want. If you are married or planning to get married, forget about it, concentrate on your family and kids.
Hi Dr Pagavalan,
Thank you for your advise. Make sense. Btw I’m a female and yes currently I’m single and do plan to get married when the time is right. I do love medicine because I love science and I want to save more lives and make them happy. Since my age is such and with the conditions..I have to drop this and think of other way.
Good day Dr.
Thank you for the very helpful post. I am currently a final year medical student who is passionate about Dermatology. It is understood that before I can specialize in Dermatology, I am to sit for all the MRCP exams and pass the gazettement phase of 18 months. My questions are as follows:
1) As you have mentioned above, one can complete the MRCP exams within 4 years of graduation from Medical school- eg. Complete part 1 by the end of Year 1 HO, Complete part 2 by the end of Year 2 HO and PACES by the end of Year 2 specialty training. Are the above sequence of events what you had meant in your post? If not, could you provide a breakdown of when it is best to sit for these exams.
2) After PACES, for example at the end of year 2 specialty training, will I be recommended by the HOD for the 18 month gazettement? In this case, gazettement will begin as my year 3 of specialty training, spanning up to my 4th year (which will only be 6 months long). Or am I to complete all 4 years of specialty training before being allowed gazettement (despite my efforts in completing PACES before the recommended timeline)
3) Should I decide to delay my sub-speciality training in dermatology post gazettement, are there any implications? For example having to renew any qualifications?
Would appreciate if you could help me with these questions. Thank you very much.
1) yes, you are right.
2) Gazettment is actually only 6 months. The 12 months is actually known as post-MRCP training. So, the total is 18 months. The current rule is you must complete 4 years of training before undergoing the 6 months of gazettement process. the 12 months post MRCP training can be part of the 4 years training.
3) once you are gazetted as a general physician, you need to apply via KKM to get entry into the Dermatology training program, which may take up to 2 years of waiting period.You will remain as General Physician till then.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
Thanks for your informative posts.
I’m an Iraqi doctor and will start my MRCP journey soon hopefully to complete it within 2 years and take SCE in Neurology after that.
What are my chances to find a job as a GP or a Neurologist in any place in Malaysia? whether it’s in a public hospital or a private clinic?
Is your basic degree recognised by MMC? If not, even if you have MRCP, you are not registrable in Malaysia. As far as I know SCE is not recognised in Malaysia. It is very unlikely for you to get a public job in Malaysia as we do not even have enough post for locals. Private don’t employ foreigners generally unless they can prove that they can’t get a local.
Yes, Baghdad Uni is one of only 4 Iraqi unis that’s recognised by MMC, so my degree should be recognised as well.
So I should register with MMC? Before or after MRCP?
That means I should find a private employer that’s so convinced in me, he will do the rest regarding proving he can’t get a local?!
MRCP do not make you a specialist directly. You need to do gazettement to be accredited as a specialist. This can only be done in public hospitals.At the moment Malaysia do not provide any jobs to foreigners even if you are married to a Malaysian.
What are the pathways for family medicine? Also,are there any shortcuts if i plan to sit for mcrp part one only? Can i use that in any other line or pathway?
Either Master’s or MAFP programme by Academy of Family Physician. There are no shortcuts in Medicine. MRCP is only for physician.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I have just finished my IGCSEs exam (like SPM) and would like to ask you some questions.
1) Firstly, I want to become a neurosurgeon. Can you please outline how my career pathway would look like?
2) Would you recommend to do a medical degree locally or overseas like in the UK?
3) Which would be a better option? To take my MRCP or to obtain my masters from UM or any other local universities
4) Other than Malaysia, is there any other countries that I could work in ( In case I am not able to get a posting as there are more and more doctors graduating everyday)
Firstly, please make sure you sit for SPM BM paper as it is a requirement to join civil service.
1) I have written an article on this, please read the article.
2) depends on your budget and what is your plan in the future. If you want to remain overseas like in UK, Aussie, NZ etc, then it is worthwhile to do it overseas.
3) MRCP is not to become a surgeon. IN Malaysia, to become a surgeon, the only option is master
4) depends on where your degree is recognised. UM/UKM is recognised in Singapore, MOnash in Australia/NZ, PMC in Ireland and Newcastle in UK.However, jobs are not guaranteed. Most countries are facing same problems. Most of these questions have been answered in this blog in various topics, or you can buy my books which has summarised everything in sequence.
Thank you very much Dr Pagalavan!
I shall check out your books too.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan
I’m an Internist from Indonesia and I was wondering if I can continue my career in Malaysia. Is it doable? what step should I take?
Thank you in advance
As far as I know, no postgraduate degree from Indonesia recognised in Malaysia. Furthermore, Malaysia do not provide jobs to foreigners.
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Hai doctor, i’m still a bit confuse. How can we apply for mrcp? Is there any new hout it when we’re in housemanship or is it something that we have to apply on our own through websites etc?Thank you so much
You need to apply on your own. Use to be under UM but I heard it has been taken over by Academy of Medicine. You can also check with MRCP website.
Hi, I am from Bangladesh, completed mrcp- part2 , preparing for paces. After passing paces , what opportunity I will have in Malaysia as a doctor.
No opportunity at all. Malaysia do not provide jobs for foreigners since 2014 due to oversupply of doctors locally.
Hi Doctor, im a doctor in government hospital for 10 years in pathology department. Im just a medical officer. I would like to do family medicine while im still in this department. Where do i apply?
Im not planning to do masters in the government.can you guide me please.
Thank you
Academy of Family Physicians Malaysia
Hello, I’m a x houseman(less than a year), local graduate, resigning due to medical condition. I’m still recuperating and hope to fully utilise my time as my illness will probably take more than another year to recover.
I’ve been scrolling through all the comments and from what I’ve read. I’ll need to have at least one year working experience as houseman before I can attempt mrcp part 1.
My question is can I apply for mrcp part 1 with only a mbbs degree and no 12-months working experience. I’ve been confused as people around me seemed to imply that I can take it without the work experience
I think they do allow nowadays but the issue will be after that. The chances of you getting a job!
Thanks for reply.. I reposted another comment because the previous comment appeared to be deleted when I refreshed the page. If I want to do master in preclinical subject like anatomy or physio, what is the route? Is there anything else I can do? I am not interested to take all the papers to practice overseas.
As far as I know, everything needs full registration. But you can try to check with the universities. Or some private universities.
Hello, I’m a x-houseman (less than a year), local graduate, resigning due to medical condition. I would probably need more than another year to recover from my illness (non union fracture). I’ve scrolled through all the comments from your blog (given the plethora of info here, I’m overwhelmed and may have missed some, sorry if this question is redundant)
I read from your post that to sit for mrcp part 1, I need to complete at least one year of housemanship. However, many around me (MOs) imply that I can take the paper anyway. I’m so confused. So can I register for it?
Secondly, do I need to finish 2years housemanship, before i take master in preclinical subject like anatomy or physiology?
I feel depressed wasting my time doing nothing while recuperating. Anything you would suggest? I’m very thankful
Dr Paga,
I’m currently a radiology resident thinking of subspecializing in interventional radiology. would like to find out about the job market of an IR specialist in KL. What are the procedures I’ll be able to practice? Will I fare better working in a government setting compared to private?
In terms of procedure, private is nothing compared to government hospitals. In private, most of the time you will be a ‘normal” radiologist. In most hospitals you can do minor procedures like biopsy etc(which most general radiologist can do as well) Any vascular intervention may need adequate backup which only tertiary private hospitals may be able to provide. I think there are enough interventional radiologist in these hospitals in KL. But there are still vacancies outside KL.
Would you recommend me to remain in the US, based on the job availability in Malaysia?
if you have a job there, of course!
First of all, thank you so much Dr. for all these useful infos.
Many rumors circulating around about the possibility of taking MRCP (UK) part 1 without clinical practice as long as it is at least 12 months since our graduation from MBBS when we take the part 1 exam. Tried to ask around but still so confuse about this issue.
Can we really do that without any issue in the future of completing the full exams? Thanks again Dr. Have a nice day.
As far as I know, only part 2 and PACES need the candidate to be in practise. You can check at the college website as rules changes all the time
Dear Dr,
Thank you for beneficial info delivered earlier.
I would like to clarify..
I am not on General Medical or Internal Medicine field.
I have served in anaesthesiology for few years..
Recently i have made my mind thinking to further study in medicine ie sitting for mrcp.
Can i sit part 1 and part 2 if i still in other deparrment apart from general medical itself.
I have come across few friend doing the same thing and prior aitting for part 2 clinical/PACES they apply for medical.
The resons will be varied.some from other hospital smaller and some as had been posted after ther housemanship.
Can u please email me the clarification Dr.
Thank you so much for your info and advice.
Dr Rabiatun
I have completed internal medicine training. If I now appear for MRCP SCE exam in endocrinology or cardiology and pass it, will I be allowed to practise as an endocrinologist or cardiologist. These are my 2 subjects of interest. I can opt for either practising in Malaysia where my family was settled or in India , where I was born and where I did my MD.
Nope. MRCP SCE do not make you an endocrinologist or cardiologist. Even your MD is not recognised in Malaysia directly.
Sir, any idea about India? Does an MRCP SCE after my MD degree in India qualify me to practise as an endocrinologist or cardiologist. There is an agency here that is saying that an MRCP SCE after an MD gives you a chance of employment as superspecialist.
Any idea about this sir?
I think you need to ask the question to Indian Medical Council. MRCP SCE is an exam for candidates who are completing CCT(Certificate of Completion of Training) in UK. The exam itself do not make you a superspecialist. It is just one of the requirement to complete your subspecialist training aka CCT. No one can become a subspecialist without undergoing proper training program, in most instances would be atleast 3 years after your basic specialist training in a recognised centre.
Thanks a lot sir for your very patient and prompt reply.
Hi greetings Dr. With regards to applying for subspecialty with the MOH, are there any criterias which makes a candidate more favourable? (Eg. Higher marks accumulated during housemanship/ MRCP examination/ KPI)
Thank you Dr.
Not that I know.
Hi Dr Pagalavan, thanks for all the info you provided here. Here I have a question. Can I sit for MRCP part 1 12 months after my graduation but without 12 months housemanship?
Hi Dr Pagalavan, thanks for all the info you provided here. Here I have a question. Can I sit for MRCP part 1 12 months after my graduation but without 12 months housemanship?
You need to check with the college website but i think it is allowed.
Hi Dr Pagalavan, I am Kim, a medical graduate.
1. May I ask when would be the best time to register for MRCP Ireland part 1? While waiting for housemanship or during housemanship?
2. If I were to do the part 1 before housemanship, is the 7 years duration to complete Part 2 (written, PACES) sufficient in the view that we have the contract system now and the uncertainty of whether we will be posted to medical department as floating MO later?
Hope to get your opinion on this. Thanks a lot Dr!
You need to check with the college website. Rules keep changing. However, you need to be in practise before sitting for Part 2 and 3. The contract system complicates the matter. It is not the issue of sitting for the exam but passing the exam do not make you a specialist unless you complete 4 years of internal medicine posting(in KKM hospital) and be gazetted as a specialist. So, if you do not get renewal of contract or permanent post, it is almost impossible to be recognised as a specialist.
Hye Dr, nice to meet you, you info are seriously wealth for all of us..Sir,I need your help.,advice,
Sir I’m a doctor,I finished my housemanship, I have my mmc,and I served government for almost 2.5 years,and I passed my MRCP one,but during housemanship I had some issues of bullied by my MO.very fierce lady,due to that I have “tatatertib” issue,so till now my salary is a houseman salary,..I couldn’t take it anymore so I just quit from government,and having not completed my specialisation. I’m done my interview with one private clinic and going to join next week., but my dream is to be a specialist, is there anyway to be a specialist Doctor, pls I need your guidance.,after I quit from government I won’t get my APC right doctor and without my APC I’m not able to do specialisation right sir😭😭😔..do you have any suggestions for me sir.
Without APC, you can’t work in a private clinic. So I don’t understand what you are saying. Since you did not complete your 4 years compulsory service, unless MMC gives you an exemption, you will not get an APC to work anywhere else. In fact it is illegal to do so. You can’t do any specialisation privately except the family medicine program under academy of family medicine
Hi pagalavan, I wanna ask how to became anaesthesiologist by taking parallel pathway? Is it I have to study oversea or just local?
DG did introduce a parallel pathway with The Irish college few years ago. I think it is done in both countries.
Hi doctor, I’m currently in housemanship. If i would like to specialise in opthalmology in the future what are the pathyway available for me?
Only local Master programme or is there any parallel pathway or oversea training available?
Usually how long will it take for me to get a Master programme in opthalmology?
Local Master’s is the only way. However FRCS (Glasgow) was available but you need to find that out from KKM. Most of the questions has been answered in this blog many times. generally it will take about 3-4 years after housemanship to enter Master’s program based on current demand.
Hi doctor, thank you for the reply!
I was told that these, FRCS (IRE), FRCOpthal(UK), FRACOpth, Fellowship in Ophthalmology, FAMS, Ophthalmology were all listed as recognized postgraduate qualification.
1) Is it possible for me to take these postgraduate program after i have completed my HOship in Malaysia?
You need to check with the college website. As far as I know only certain hospitals in Malaysia recognised for training in FRCS opthal. And you need to go to UK for the exams. Need to check with the college.
Hi, may I know if the doctors are allowed to choose the specialty they want?
of course you can choose but that does not mean you will get it.
Hi Dr Pagalavan, I wanna ask is it possible for me to complete all 3 parts MRCP ireland without doing housemanship? Because I am thinking of completing MRCP 1 year after graduation then apply for job in Singapore.
Nope
may i know roughly how much will i have to spend in order to complete MRCP? Thank youu
You need to check the MRCP website. Fees keep changing every year
Hello dr. I would like to ask regarding mrcp. Mrcp ireland vs mrcp uk, which is better recognised is malaysia ?
Both are recognised
Hi Dr. Pagalavan. I am completing my CCT in Rheumatology and General Medicine in UK within the next 6 months. My plan is to work as consultant rheumatologist in UK for about 12 months, then to return to Malaysia to practice.
Could you explain where can I find the step-by-step approach for me to register as specialist? And would you advise for me to work in government hospital first or private?
All available on MMC website. Need to register under NSR for specialist registration and MMC for full registration. I doubt you will get a job in government as number of post are limited but university hospitals are possible. I would suggest to work under government to get a feel about our health system.
Thanks for your advice. For government post, do I apply as a medical officer or is there a separate application for specialist/ consultant post?
For university hospital job, do I apply under the Ministry of Education?
It should be Pegawai Perubatan (Pakar) U48 and above. It might have changed. You can enquire from KKM (if they ever reply!). Check their website. For university hospitals, you need to check with each of them individually.
Good day doctor, I would like to know, if I have completed MRCP(UK) in Malaysia with 18 months of gazettement, will I be eligible to apply college of physician in Australia to be a specialist there ?
If I have my MRCP(UK) and masters in dermatology as my sub speciality, will I be eligible as well ?
Or it’s only eligible if I have my master’s done from the local universities like UM
To my understanding, as a specialist, we have the opportunity to apply to college of physician in Australia, just would like to confirm whether it matters for the eligibility that I become a specialist through MRCP or master programme in Malaysia
Looking forward for your kind advice doctor, thank you
Both MRCP and Master’s from Malaysia are not officially recognised in Australia. It is assessed on individual basis. And both General medicine and dermatology will be assessed separately and involves 2 separate form of assessment to be recognised. For example, if they assess you as substantially comparable status, you will need to do 12 months of peer review for Gen Med and another 12 months of peer review for Dermatology. Remember that each of this must be a full time job with 2 peer reviewers onsite.
Since both MRCP and Master’s are not directly recognised in Australia, it all depends on your training pathway and years of experience. From my knowledge and understanding, if you have less than 5 years experience as a specialist, they will only provide partially comparable status which may need you to work as a registrar for 1-2 years and may or may not need to sit for the Part 2 exams.You may also need another 12 months of peer review after that.
Hi Dr Pagalavan, thank you very much for your very insightful article! i am a paediatric trainee in UK (starting my 4th year of training), and have passed all parts of MRCPCH. Due to private matters I might have to come back to Malaysia instead of completing the entire 7-8 years training in the UK. My understanding is that I need at least 4 years of training to be counted as a ‘specialist’ in Malaysia ie registered with NSR. A few questions:
1. If I return to Msia after completing the 4 years of paediatric training in UK, would I be recognised as a fully qualified general paediatrician in Msia? Would I be able to work in private hospitals (eg Sunway/Sime darby), where I can run my own clinics, do ward rounds etc, or there will be very limited work that I can do since I am not a ‘consultant’ who has no subspecialty?
2. Would the gazettement process still be 6 months if I have completed 4 years of training here, or 18 months? Would the application for gazettement be a long wait/process (ie few months of unemployment when I get back to Msia?)
I am very sure you are aware that rules keep changing in Malaysia. If you have 4 years of training, the best is to apply to NSR for specialist registration and MMC for general registration. NSR will then decide whether you need further gazettement process etc.
Remember, there is also something known as compulsory service which MMC have to give exemption. You need to apply for that as well.
If you are exempted from compulsory service and given specialist registration, then you can apply for a job in private centres.
The problem will arise if you need to do gazettement process which can only be done in public hospitals. Unlikely you will get a job in public hospital due to no post available even for those who are already in the system. Please see some of my latest articles.
The best advise I would give is to get your CCT before coming back to Malaysia.
Thank you for your prompt reply Dr Pagalavan. One more question to clarify, from what I gather from your reply, “compulsory service” and “gazettement” are two different things. I might be exempted from both (I’d presume unlikely), but also might have to do both (In which case, the gazettement will be the difficult one to get, as there won’t be enough places)? So if I can’t get a gazettement place, I will be unemployed until I eventually obtain a place, somehow, somewhere?
Thank you very much for your input, and hope you have been doing well in Australia!
Please read this comment above, same situation as yours but from Singapore, still waiting for a gazettement job for 3 years.
Sorry for a subsequent question so soon after my initial reply. When you said gazettement and “unlikely to get a job in public hospital”, do you mean a 1-2 years wait, but eventually I will get a place for the gazettement? Or you meant that I will almost never get a place (which means that my career is pretty much gone)? Because if gazettement is required for NSR, but I can’t get a place, then I cannot be registered with NSR, and I can never be a “specialist”? Thank you for your patience in answering all my questions.
Based on current situation, I can’t say how long it will take or whether you will even get it. Read the comment that I attached in your previous query.
Hi Dr, is it possible to complete MRCPCH while in Masters program?
Yes
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
Hi, I’m a medical officer in private sector. I quit KKM many years ago and recently I just completed my all 3 parts of MCRP. Is there any chance I will be “reabsorbed” back to KKM for gazettement? If not, is there any other countries will be willing to accept me? Please kindly advise. Thank you very much for your help.
With the current situation, it is going to be very tough to get back into KKM, may be even impossible. But still worth trying. Otherwise, Singapore, UK and Ireland may be the other options available if you want to pursue specialisation. You can also try university hospitals.
Thank you very much Dr. Pagalavan for your advise.