Over the last few months I received a couple of info and concerns regarding Occupational Health specialist training. Previously, in order for you to become a Occuptional Health Specialist, you need to do the 4 year Master in Public Health ( Occupational Medicine) in UM, UKM or USM. However, I was informed that beginning last year or 2009 intake, this programme has been removed and another programme known as DrPh ( Doctor of Public Health) has been introduced. This is a 3 year programme where you need to publish at least 2 papers in international journals to graduate. Before entering this programme, you need to do 1 year of Master’s in Public Health. If you do not complete DrPh, you will not be known as Public Health Specialist and not eligible to receive specialist allowance.
Previously, there use to be Master’s in Public Health: MPH ( occupational Medicine), MPH ( epidemiology) MPH ( Hospital Management) etc etc but all these has been removed and everyone will just be known as Public Health Specialist with DrPh. I find this rather backwards in planning. Most of these Public Health Specialist will just end up doing administrative work in Ministry of Health as they will be lumped together. How will MOH decide who will function as Occupational Health specialist and who will function as epidemiologist? I am not sure what actually happened and why did they make these changes. Who are the people involved in the discussion and was everyone consulted? Oops, forgot, we are in Malaysia.
NIOSH do offer courses to become Occupational Health Doctors but NOT a specialist. Many GPs and Medical Officers are doing this 1 week course and calling themselves Occupational Health Doctor!! The government does not seem to be paying much attention to the importance of Occupational Health Specialist. Probably, that’s the reason why we are seeing so many industrial accidents in our country. In most industrialised countries, occupational health specialist plays an important role in preventing any accidents. The laws are also very strict in occupational safety. As usual in bolehland, something major has to happen before the politicians start to act. Probably they are not bothered as most of our factory workers are foreigners from 3rd world countries! Talking about developed and high income nation by 2020? Poooodah…………………
Below, I have attached the 2 emails that I had received over the last 2 months concerning the frustration that has occurred among the budding Occupational Health Specialists:
Email 1:
THANKS for taking time to blog.
Ur experience and sharing are both invaluable and interesting.
I am interested to take up Occupational Medicine as part of the specialized field under Public Health. However, the feedback I got from seniors are very shocking.
For the benefits of other students and readers.. I shall share this:
1) There is no more route to become Occupational Physician in Malaysia besides the OHD course by NIOSH as the MPH(Occ Health) has been removed and replaced by DrPH.
Our most established Uni Malaya is no exception.
DrPH is a license to be a PUBLIC HEALTH Specialist NOT a Occupational Physician.
2) Since MOH has upgraded MPH (OH) to DrPH…the standard is totally different from those days. It is NO LONGER attachment at work site….factory, DOSH, SOCSO….etc…
but GUESS WHAT??? Need to do Public Health Research work in the span of 3 years including publishing papers in International Journals. Uni Malaya is pushing the candidates to the max….even the supervisors are helpless having to meet the KPI. Quite a number of candidates are unable to get approval from their supervisors for research grant given that the failure to publish the papers by the DrPH candidate would further reduce their subsequent research grant of the lecturers.
3) Was told that only 3 local uni have Occupational Health Unit: UM, UKM, USM. However, regardless which Uni you go, DrPH will NOT qualify you as Occ Health Physician.
OHD offered by NIOSH remains the ONLY way to be a Occupational Health Doctor in Malaysia. It is a short course preferred by GP looking for panels from Multinational companies….
4) Whether this field can progress in Malaysia is another issue. Many if NOT all companies in Malaysia engage Occ Health service merely to adhere to the law…not so much to safeguard the safety and health of the employees.
5) It is high time to rebrand public health services beyond health promotion and health education. Who is going to advocate that? Besides CDC, Epid, Outbreak control…..can public health doctors do more? Besides Needlestick injury…can Unit Keselamatan Pekerjaan do something more…?
Whether it is in clinical or public health….it really takes someone to make a CHANGE to the old system in order to serve the public better…
THANK YOU !
Comment 2:
Hi Dr P,
Firstly I am really happy and ‘lucky’ to come across your web page. It is really informative and rich in substance. Thank you so much Dr P.
I am currently pursuing my doctorate in public health (by default) in one of our local unis. I wish to stress at this point that my area of interest was and will always be Occupational Medicine. Unfortunately our country doesn’t recognize this field as a sub-specialty nor occupational physicians in the clinical aspect. Most of them end up in some state/district health office as public health doctors confined to administrative duties. To make matters worse certificate courses being conferred by NIOSH (9 day courses!!) to GP’s have subsequently resulted in ‘questionable’ credibility of occupational health doctors out in the field. Initially there was a MPH(occupational Health)-4 yr programme offered by UM and USM, unfortunately now they have so called ‘upgraded’ it to a doctorate programme in general public health. Most of us were aghast with the MOH’s abrupt overnight decision to transform the MPH(OH) into a Public Health Doctorate programme. End of the day we get conferred a Public Health Specialist status which sounds good on paper but prospect of becoming credible a OH physician becomes hampered. I am keeping my options open in Australia and New Zealand on practicing OH in their setup. If you have any info on my taking another accredited OH degree or practicing OH in another country who may really appreciate my services pls be free to let me know.
Thank so much Dr P
Ex-paulian- DR B
all thanks to a man who is right hand of our DG
this man has changed the system without much discussion. personally i’ve known local uni professors and fellow public health physician who are in disagreement with this new system and of course this man. but whatever it is, DrPH is the only way to become a Public Health physician, all 1 year MPH programmes are not recognised. and no such thing as Occ.Health Physician in Malaysia…
OHD offered by NIOSH is a good course which costs about RM4k and the exams are not that easy…it does take a couple of attempts to pass. i’m not saying it is difficult or sufficient,but these lectures does broaden ur mind. i wish the man above could be open for discussion as to consider offering Masters in Occ. Medicine in local u’s
FORMER DG Ismail Merican is a GI consultant. Just one day before he did his GI rounds in Sly Hospital, all specialists were busy discharging patients. This DG showed no respect to colleagues despite he advocates “budaya kerja berpasukan.” This is evident..ask those who had worked with him.
During his tenure as DG, the future of Gastroenterologist was and still growing….
Now, the wind of change has taken place.
Public Health counterpart is getting the DG pose.
When it comes to Public Health, all attention go to DENGUE because DENGUE is listed as a major KPI for DG,YB LTL as well as PM Najib.
Thus, similar to MLM business….sharing of power….Oopsss…I mean responsibilities.
So, if you are budding OH doctors, SORRY lah….
Get into Epid, future is secure…..
All Public Health Specialists must show Epid skill…it is a reflection for theor KPI…mind you.
Budding OH doctors, besides SORRY I have nothing much to say….
Keep dreaming….
Keep hoping…..
GOD SAVES My Country-Malaysia!!!
1BOLEHLAND!!!!
Pasti Boleh…
MESTI Boleh!!!
HI there…Dr Pagalavan, Great info you have shared us.
I was about to apply for MPH in UM and UKM this year, but after calling them and talked to seniors from different batches, I thought to delay my application.
Public Health is very important ….Prevention of diseases and health safety awareness are among the core business. However, it is sad that there are people who join the Public Health with the impression that it is all about paper work or chairing meeting kind of work.
Talking about OH specialist, those days one can qualify as OH Doctor after taking the Post Grad Diploma (Occupational Health) offered by UKM. Many of the old timer who call themselves OHD are either having Post Grad Dip (OH) from UKM or OHD (NIOSH). However, as it stands today….UKM is no longer offer the Post Grad course. The reason….only God knows.
I wish those OH Budding doctors BEST OF LUCK !!
The future is BRIGHT outside the country.. I am trying to look for opp in Singapore…Australia…NZ….
Keep looking for it.
The reality is that you will end up doing a lot of paper work and admin work when you become a Public Health Specialist in MOH. Most of the field work are done by Inspector Kesihatan!
To me, it is obvious why the government is doing this based on email number 1 in this blog post. The past few years, the public has become concern over the ranking of universities in malaysia. And so, the government has been pushing for the local Unis to increase their publication in peer-reviewed scientific journals. Over the past 1 year, we have seen many changes taking place in all our unis to address this need of publication. And this change in OH career path is just one of those changes to force students to publish more…….. Another shortcut method that the government is trying…… Forcing more people to do research and publish at the end of the day might increase publication levels but the quality of research of someone who is force to do it is questionable….. We might even start to see more medical courses being sacrifice for the ‘greater good’ of more people doing research thus more publication……. hoping it won’t be a reality….. good luck to our country!
MOH and MOHE both are not handling this issue well. While MOH sent its candidates to do DrPH programme replacing the more preferred MOH (OH) in 3 years time, the local Uni esp the most established ones are reluctant to confer the doctorate degree to them if the standard is not up to the standard-publishing in ISI Journals.
So…it is a battle between MOH Vs MOHE ( Local Unis).
Organizers are the few heroes sitting on the Parcel E, Putrajaya without knowing what is going on in field besides busy preparing Daily Dengue Report for YB / DG to announce to public, hoping to gain some confidence from the community prior to GE…..
Victims: Current DrPH candidates who joined thinking of doing OH studies.
Possible Outcomes:
-More and more DrPH candidates are applying to postpone their thesis submission due to lack of time to carry out and analyze the DrPH research. Thus, delay entrance to workforce.
-More candidates are going to be scouted by foreign agents to Singapore….doing relevant training….As usual, more Non Bumi leaving the country making more Bumi remain in MOH.
Mind you, the term of Brain Drain is outdated…..
We are in the era of BRAIN FLUSH at the moment!!!
Perhaps, it is true that Preventive Health and Medicine is not getting much attention as clinical field. Who cares if the foreigners injured or die at work place? The employers will just send in another group of workers….
A frustrated senior OH doctor told me….until the injury involved someone BIG enough or with some social status…Dato….in this country, Preventive Health has a long long way to go in this country…..
Aspiring OH Doctors…. GOD BLESS YOU!!!!
Mangsa DrPH
make more man holes and make sure some politicians fall into it! Like what happened in Penang Hospital recently!
I guess at this point of time, it is better to consider quitting MOH and join MOHE as trainee lecturers. With DrPH, you will be called Public Health Specialist. If you remain in MOH, you will be doing more of outbreak control. Ladies usually dislike the field action in outbreak control. Thus, it is not surprising to see so many ladies entering the trainee posts.
You can call yourself Public health specialists even teaching in public Uni.
I am not too sure if Uni like UiTM accept non Bumi as their training lecturers. There are many upcoming UiTM in the country…..
Certainly a good news for these aspiring OH Doctors.
Worth consider UiTM before you join the brain drain team to overseas.
I had seen very few non Bumi in UiTM as lecturers but I am not sure if they are under the category of Bumi from Sabah/Sarawak.
Dr Paga…you have indeed opened alot of discussion for both clinical and non clinical Dr in this country. Very vocal and out spoken medical blog I would say.
I like the transparency practiced here. May be you can suggest some alternatives pathways to these poor souls in the midst of OH.
Thank You.
UiTM do take non-BUMI lecturers but not trainee lecturers. IT is better for the non-Bumis not to provide service to the only racist university in the world.
all qualified malaysians can work at UiTM as medical lecturers. bumi or non bumi are not the issues. You must be qualified and competent, period.
Of course, everyone knows that!! We are talking about students!!
Dr P, UiTM is smarter than Singapore in getting the BEST BRAIN as they choose not to train the Non Bumis but may consider to recruit Non Bumi lecturers.
Dr P……forgive me in saying this-I feel more upset with the system and depressed after reading your blog. To me it is like the Malaysia Medical Insider or Medical version of Malaysia Today.
Somehow, I really dont see the light in the midst of darkness like those aspiring OH Dr who wrote to you. What can be done? I am just like you have to fight through F6…enter Uni…without any special assistance.
I totally agree with you….sooner or later Dr will be jobless. I am REALLY REALLY REALLY WORRIED…..
What is your kind suggestion, Dr P?
this country is going down hill. It has to destroy itself before rebuilding
Hi Dr Pagalavan… since i think u r experienced enough with the hustle & bustle of the politicized governing bodies of the MOH, i wanna ask u few questions; fyi, i’m also interested to take up Occupational Medicine as part of the specialized field under Public Health, not inspire at all to go into the DrPH field… reason being… u know urself… ok, back to my questions;
1. Is there any way that i can get to do MPH ( Occupational Medicine) overseas, is there any scholarship from anywhere (JPA, MARA, etc) and is MOH going to approve this masters programme if exist… if there is, how do i apply for it? (i’ve been surfing the net but couldn’t find any)
2. I’ve done my district postings & currently exposing myself to public health field, i’m planning to apply for a MPH ( Occupational Medicine) this year but since it is not available anymore, what are ur suggestions for me to pursue my interest in being an occupational health specialist?
1) NUS use to offer Masters in Occupational Medicine but not sure whether it is still available. It is recognised in Malaysia. However, I don’t think any scholarship will be offered.
2) No other way other than doing DrPH and then probably do the NIOSH course in occupational health.
There are new courses available in UKM already. Even an executive version is available now. The executive version confers the title ” Master of Public Health Science (Occupational Health) or Master of Public Health Science (Hospital Management)
Contrary to popular belief, Occ Health does not mean paper work in the private sector. Occ health doctors in the corporate world end up making many decisions deciding the health and welfare of the employees, based on both medical and business needs of a company. No clinical doctor can achieve this. You really need Occ health training for this.
Dear DrP & all budding OH fellows,
I have been following this blog from a distance. I wish to congratulate Dr Paga for sharing all the insider news to the medical students and officers.
I read with much interests and sympathy for those budding OH fellows as I could relate to them.
To answer few questions posted here….
*There wont be any scholarship from JPA (Not too sure of MARA/UiTM) for doctors to do OH in overseas. Gone are those days when OH was not so developed in Malaysia..our government did send doctors to NUS for that training.
*Perhaps, the only closest to OH is DrPH programme offered in most local Unis now. Mind you, the dilemma shared by the above DrPH candidates are real as I have been approached by students and aspiring DrPH candidates on tips to do research and publish journal papers.
*MOH sponsored candidates must secure DrPH when they march back to report to their “Jedis” in Putrajaya. The irony is Putrajaya great “Jedis”guys are not well awared of the real situation in all local Unis.
*While local Unis are getting autonomy…they have their own right to set their standard. More pressure for lecturers to publish papers….while those DrPH candidates are no exception.
*I am not too sure if the above aspiring OH doctors are still in the course…but from what I heard, the passing rate in Public Health (MPH) and DrPH are not as high as what we might expect. More and more candidates are being pressured to leave the research course as a result of not keeping to the DrPH/PhD standard, more so if you are in the few most established local Unis.
*Thus, NEVER NEVER enroll into the MPH/DrPH thinking it is the last option if you failed your attempt for clinical Master….the decision might cost you MORE.
*I would expect the new DrPH to be more popular than the previous MPH with specialty. But I am wrong as till date, the drop out seems higher than the previous one. Could it be the high standard or poor monitoring from the faculty? To me it sounds more like the blind leading the blind.
Last word for those aspiring OH physicians….Never enroll into DrPH if you are looking for OH positions….
Dont buy my words….just ask around to verify my findings.
Prometheus’s input is correct..not paper work…but lots of decision making and going to the field to advocate the OH awareness and safety issues.
Thumbs up to Prometheus. Good Luck in your OH field!!!
—MAY THE GOOD FORCE BE WITH YOU !!!!—
hello Dr. your website is very informative. regarding public health/occupational health specialization, does this mean that there are currently no more of the 4 year master program in public health? the only way to become a public health specilist is to do the DrPh with 1 year of master in public health? and has it been implemented in all universities in malaysia? is the Dr.Ph the same with other overseas Dr.Ph? if it’s the same, say, instead of doing that, can one opt to do a Dr.Ph overseas and still be recognized as a public health specialist?
thank you.
It is still a 4 year programme: you need to complete 1 year of Master’s in public health and 3 years of DrPH. I was informed that all university have started this programme since 2009/10.
NO, it is not the same.
Hello Doctor,what is the future of sports medicine in Malaysia?
There are 2 types of sports medicine, one under ortho and another under rehab. It is a good field but better if you go under ortho sub speciality
I am MPH student in UM. I just want to add as after MPH for continuation of DrPH you need to get good CGPA. its should be more than 3.2/4.0 that is not easy in UM. I am a Pakistani Dr, but i dont know what is the future of DrPh in Pakistan and other countries as this program is not familiar in my country.
i’m a 3rd year DrPH student from UKM. well..i have to agree with the current issue. the current training is totally different from the previous 4 year mph training. The only thing that will have you to have the feel of being OH practitioner is probably during attachment. And the research…no matter how much we planned to pursue in OH, you still have to follow whatever the supervisor wants (most of the time it is frustrating not be able to do what we want)….
other options that are available; i may go for LFOM since it is more recognized. OHD alone may not be enough if you are planning to work abroad.
Dr P, I need your permission to publish this post in my Facebook? Hope you don’t mind
No problem
Dear Dr P,
I am a final year med student studying in Dundee, Scotland, and have been following your blog for quite some time. I am due to graduate in June, and would most probably train in the UK (initially) to avoid the HO glut back home. Thank you for sharing your insight into medicine in Malaysia, and I must say… its depressing at times.
I have a splitting interest between Public Health and Internal Medicine. I feverishly believe in preventive medicine as the future of medicine, but like spending time with patients in clinical settings. I’ve done self-proposed placements with Public Health here, and I do enjoy and appreciate the unsung roles of Public Health doctors.
Do you think competition for specialist spots should be part of my consideration in choosing/aiming for a specialty? If so, do you have any insight to the scene for both specialty in Malaysia? In the UK, public health has limited spots and has a high competition ratio, whereas core medical training is much easier to enter, but hard to predict when it comes to subspecialising.
p/s –
To aid in your reply, I would also like to disclose my thoughts on the studying and practice of medicine: While regret is not a word for me, avoid is something I would have done knowing what it takes to be a doctor. While it does not kill me to study medicine, passion is not a word I would yet put next to medicine. At the end of my undergraduate training, all i know is that nurturing this set of skills will put food on the table, and I enjoy the service I can provide for anyone in need. I would rather be chatting to patients and convince them to go on a treadmill+diet, then study pathology. I choose to do medicine to be in a path of service, not filling out paper work, selfish competitions, racial quotas, and definitely not private practice (YET). Its all upside-down now.
Combining the work of public health and physician would actually be general practice…but sad enough Malaysia has no public primary care system. Training as a GP here would mean that it will not be recognised back home.
Malaysia do have a public primary health care system which is mainly managed by MOs. Most of these Klinik Kesihatan do have at least 1 Family Medicine Specialist now. As for public health, you need to have Master’s in Public Health to become one. Your job will mainly involve admin work rather than seeing patients. And obviously you can’t go private.
As for Internal medicine, I am not sure what you are talking about. Are you talking about Internal Medicine specialist or General Practitioner aka Family medicine specialist. These are both clinical job but FMS do not have any prospect in private sector unless you open a clinic as a normal GP.
Dear Dr P,
Apologies for not being clear enough, and i meant to say internal medicine specialist (and other related subspecialty like cardio respi etc)
What are the available specialist post in Malaysia for both Public Health vs Internal Medicine? Is it right to say that there should be more openings in internal medicine overall? Or are there other factors at play?
Is MRCGP recognised in Malaysia?
I would like to know enough to avoid caught in a jobless state back home in the future.
Thank you so much for the replies Dr P, and your insight is much appreciated.
With regards to Internal Medicine, you probably would be better off finishing your MRCP and CMT and trying your luck in ST in UK before returning home. By then, you should be considered as a specialist in general medicine in Malaysia (unless things change over time). Thus, you definitely won’t be jobless by the time you return to Malaysia cause Malaysia needs more specialists and not junior doctors.
Dr Paga would be able to enlighten about future subspecialising in Malaysia, given the glut which is already happening.
Malaysia is still short of specialist in public sector. I would advise you to complete your speciality training in UK if you intend to come back.
MRACGP is recognised in Malaysia.
Dear GP and Dr P,
Thank you so much. Your insights are much appreciated!
Happy CNY and Have a great start to 2014…
Kind regards,
hello dr
need your oppinion regarding a doctor studying in occupational MEDICINE Vs doctor studying in occupational HEALTH. I’m sligthly unsure reagarding this 2 term. can a doctor work as occupational medicine doctor with degree or master in occupational health?
kind regarrds
If I am not mistaken, occupational health is a branch of public health. I am not very sure about this. You need to check with the uni which is providing this degree. To me, both looks the same
My take on this in Malaysia, Occupational medicine is more clinical, specific to treating an occupational illness in a patient. Requires a DrPH study. 4 year master plus phd in public health. No direct masters for occ med in Malaysia. Occ Med is rated as a clinical physician. Occupational health is more general, and can review the industry in general. There are a variety of Masters courses to provide you the rating of Occupational Health. Malaysia also has Niosh OHDs, occupational health doctors, which obtain such rating going through a certificate course.
It all depends on what you want to do, be clinical (occ med), more into corporate care (occ health), or just want to open a general practitioneers clinic (ohd), with special interest in occupational health.
Thank you for the blog. I was being directed to this page by a senior. What I dont understand is why ALL local Unis are not standardised in the DrPH syallabus and criteria. Shocking to find out some working in health office now are still not yet completed the research frm UM…while those from other Unis have graduated even though they joined the programme much later.
Talking about the LFOM/MFOM, rumours are going around saying that KKM will soon recognise it as a specialist like others. I am at the cross road, this is really much tougher than clinical.
Hi just wasnted to find out whther the ukm ohd prorgamme (part time) is a master programme?
Nope
UKM offers Masters in Community Health Science either with a sub specialty in Occupational Health or Health Management.
So it is a Master’s program, but you cannot be registered in to the NSR as of yet. This is because the NSR’s criteria to register as a Public Health Specialist is a 4 year program, or the DrPH Program. The old UKM Postgraduate Diploma program has ceased to exist. I hold the MScCH(OH) and besides the education, i now only have bragging rights, and consider myself in the private sector, a specialist in Community health, but as per NSR, i am unable to register as a specialist. This is probably the only Masters Programme which is targeted at the specialty of Occupational Health . (But not recognized by the NSR, because its too short.) The duration is 2.5 years.
Yes, it is considered similar to Master in Medical Science which are shorter and not a specialist degree.
NIOSH so called 1 week OHD course is not 1 week affair..exam is tough. Not many passed 1st attempt..last time around 100 candidates sat for the exam only 30 passed..so the impression OHD is easy is totally wrong. I known one 4 year public health specialist failed her first attempt..some dr its their 4th attempt. its a compentency exam.. Just like like MRCP..the right preparation for the exam at least six months or more plus you must at least have occupational health practice experience otherwise you doomed first attempt. Many who failed had little experience and little preparation. They usually failed second attempt if not properly prepared..i think this OHD should be compulsory for those who want to practice as OHD even they have master or DrPH to assess thier compentency..mind you even public health specialist failed 1st attempt..
any idea if there any overseas uni offering this OHD course ?
Hi Dr Paga,
Currently, I still choose to what degree should I pursue in, and actually, I get interested in public health, where I could do research and have a public contact at the same time.
Is public health a branch of medicine (only for medic students)? Or any allied health professions could pursue it?
Which degree would you recommend me to study if I am interested to take on master in public health after my degree?
Thanks
Generally Master’s in public health is for doctors but nurses can also do Master’s in public health as their degree.
Hi Dr Pagal,
Is the Occ Med training in Australia recognised in Malaysia?
Are there private work available in Occ Med field in Malaysia? Or mostly public?
Thanks for your advice.
You can check at NSR website but I don’t think so. The private work is usually as GP and not in hospitals etc. You may have some jobs available in multinational companies like oil & gas etc. Otherwise just public and Universities
Hi Dr Pagal,
I wish to take LFOM. Do the courses conduct in Malaysia? Any channel i can enquire regarding this? Thank you
Are you referring to occupational medicine course by RCPI?
Yes Dr Pagal. ^^
I think you need to ask the college. It use to be conducted in Malaysia but I don’t hear about it anymore
Hi Dr P,
How about the HLP courses offered under area of special interest?
such as Master in health Economics, master in patient safety, what is the propect of these courses?
Usually administrative jobs