Hmmm, I wonder how? This appeared like the first statement from our new DG since he took the office and I find it rather amusing. Year in and year out, there are thousands of Master’s applicants who are rejected. This year, I was informed that the number of seats for local Master’s programme will be increased to 800, all disciplines included. BUT at the same time, the number of graduates is increasing exponentially. In fact, he has rightfully said that the number of new doctors will be 4500 this year and will continue to increase as 50% of our 33 medical schools have yet to produce their graduates. So, what is 800 compared to 5-6 000 doctors finishing housemanship soon. I also heard that they are planning to increase the number to 1000 seats by 2015. At the same time, would this increase in the number of Master’s post maintain the quality? We can already see the quality of Master’s graduates declining over the last few years due to lack of proper supervision by senior academics. We have Master of Surgery graduates who can’t operate! I just had a bad experience with a surgeon who could not even do a simple herniorraphy( complicated by bladder injury, recurrent hernia in 1 week etc) and diagnose breast cancer.
Getting into Master’s programme is also becoming very much dependant on who you know rather than merit. If you have strong cables, your chances are better. And don’t forget the quota system, not only based on race but also based on certain allocation for certain universities under the lecturer training scheme. Unfortunately, as I had said earlier, the only option for anyone who wants to become a surgeon is via the Master’s programme. As for Internal Medicine, pediatrics and O&G, you still have MRCP, MRCPCH and MRCOG to fall back upon. FRACGP is another option for those who wants to do Family Medicine.
Post graduate education is going to become very competitive soon and I can assure you that many people is going to be frustrated and rejected. This is when they will curse themselves for becoming a doctor. DG’s statements does not make sense because it is not that the doctors DO NOT want to become specialist. It is the availability of post and the standards need to be maintained. We can’t make any tom, dick and harry as a specialist by just giving them a cert. I just hope that the government will not make Master’s programme as a specialist mill just like our 33 medical colleges!
Young docs urged to specialise
MALACCA: Doctors who have completed their housemanship have been urged to pursue specialist studies to overcome the shortage of specialists in government hospitals nationwide.
Health director-general Datuk Dr Hasan Abdul Rahman said this was because there were only 43 public hospitals with specialists out of 136 hospitals in the coun-try.
“Although the number of doctors pursuing specialist studies doubled from about 400 to 800 last year, Malaysia is still lacking in specialist doctors,” he said after launching the Third Malaysian International Medical Students Conference at the Malacca Manipal Medical College here yesterday.
Although the Government had hired more foreign doctors and was asking Malaysian doctors who migrated overseas to return, the number of available specialists was still discouraging, he said.
Dr Hasan said housemen who were posted to the six different medical fields during their two-year stint should explore the specialist field that they preferred.
“Doctors can enjoy many benefits, including fully-paid study leave, if they want to pursue specialist studies,” he said.
He also said 3,277 housemen had reported for duty last year while 3,058 reported in 2009 and 2,319 in 2008.
Dr Hassan said the ministry was targeting to have 4,500 medical graduates this year.
Meanwhile, Dr Hasan said there were no reports on the detection of E.coli bacterial infection.
He advised the people to practise precaution and observe personal hygiene when preparing food, especially vegetables.
Pagalavan's Avatar 
the quality of MRCP is also doubtful now.. one of my batch mate, who was “quite lazy” during her housemanship, became MO in medical department doing oncall without proper supervision from the physician, managed to get her MRCP about 2.5 years after her housemanship.. now she is a physician, and doing phone call consultation whenever she is oncall.. very dissapointing..
This year MoH has also unintentionally restricted subspecialty by mandating all trainees to take up a govt ‘scholarship’, probably to bond them for a few years.
However due to some reason (lack of money? total lack of planning?) each field has been given only 5 scholarships, which is less than current training numbers!
Yes, from this year onwards , once you are accepted into subspeciality training, you need to sign a contract with MOH. You will be bonded for 5-6 years after completing the subspeciality.
Actually 5 scholarship is definately better than few years ago when each discipline is given only 2-3 overseas scholarship.
i’m sorry if i talk about somethin that’s not related with your post above. i’m just seeking opinions from you,dr. i had entered UIA for foundation studies for about 1 week and MARA had called me and told me that i’m offered to do medical at univ. Alex. how’s about your opinions? It’s better for me to go to Alex or stay at Uia PJ for one-year foundation study? again,sorry if I’m disturbing here.
If I am not mistaken, you still need to do IB or A levels before going to Egypt, right? Whether you want to do medicine or not depends on you. You can read all my postings for future doctors and decide.
no, i just need to take arabic course for about three months before flying to Egypt. I just want to know, which is better between Alex uni and UIAM? and as you have so many experiences out there in medical field, haven’t you cooperate with medical graduated from Alex/egypt or uiA? which of them is good?
UIA is better. I don’t really have many good things to say about Egypt universities.
Unfortunately I have to agree with Simon on the standard of MRCP holders nowadays. Most of them passed the exam just by cramming the books and most did not even go through attachment in different subspecialties. This becomes a problem when they take on specialist calls because apart from the common general medical problems, they lack practical knowledge on more in-depth topics. I have personally experienced this when calling them to refer cases. Like Dr Paga has mentioned before, in UK, MRCP is an ENTRANCE exam to internal med training, rather than how it has been abused in our country and turned into sort of a short-cut pathway to become a physician. We really need better monitoring and training system otherwise we will end up having a lot of MRCP physicians who unfortunately function at no higher than MO level.
Yes, I do agree with both you and simon. One of the major problem with MRCP and MRCPCH is the fact that it is an entrance exam in UK. That is the reason why MOH requires you to complete atleast 4 years of medical training ( including the 18 months gazettement process) before being gazetted. However it all depends on the candidate and the HOD to make sure that they complete all the rotation. The onus is on the HOD to train these people but unfortunately that does not happen. NO proper supervision and planning. Most HODs are busy becoming world travellers!
It is also up to the HOD to make sure that the candidate is competent enough to function as a physician before signing their gazettement paper. Again, this is where the problem is. Most HOD will just sign the papers because they need these fellows to cover for them when they are travelling around the world!!
So, let’s see – 80-85% of incoming graduates will be stuck as MOs in Malaysia – I wonder how many of those ‘enthusiastic’ SPM leavers actually know about this? I can’t wait to see the look on their faces when they finally graduate and face the nightmare that is the Malaysian health care system. That’s one thing medical schools will not tell you – It doesn’t take much common sense to figure out that Malaysian medical schools have become degree mills. I think the investors are just here to milk the cow for what it’s worth.
The annual drama surrounding the JPA scholarship is a public admission that all the universities in Malaysia are useless. DAP has claimed that giving JPA scholarship to all SPM top scorers will stop the brain drain – NO, it won’t. Handing out overseas scholarships like candies will turn the JPA scholarship into a state-funded migration program – people will still leave whether or not you give them scholarships. Why do you think students are so desperate for an overseas qualification – so they may have a back-up plan and ditch the country when everything goes south. I’m no professional sociologist, but I believe the brain drain has a snowballing effect, as the best and the brightest leave, more people will follow suit and the country ends up getting caught in a vicious cycle of mediocrity.
Dear Huskies, after reading your first paragraph, what amuses me so much is how you are actually happy and excited to see what must be some very disappointed faces of future doctors. All those good doctors in the country today, weren’t they “enthusiastic SPM leavers” once before? Maybe you are talking about the ones who have a fantasy about being a doctor, but you do know that this affects every graduate, good or bad, no? I really do think that you will get your moment of satisfaction when that day finally comes, but some years down the road, maybe someone will perforate a catheter into your anus when they try to relieve your over filled bladder due to your prostate which incidentally has the size of a football. Lets see how much satisfaction you get from that then.
Sarcasm, my friend…
I’m assuming you’ll be entering the medical workforce in the next couple of years. The truth must really hurt especially when there’s no way to escape the system. The sad thing about Malaysia is the general “tak apa” attitude that the Malaysian public exhibits; even for the scenario you mentioned, nah it’ll happen to “somebody else”. Just look at the education system and can you honestly tell me that medicine in Malaysia is not heading that direction as well?
Well, if you can’t beat them, join them. The 1 million Malaysians who have left cannot all be wrong – they must have left knowing that the situation is unsalvageable. Like it or not, there will be frustration facing those left behind in Malaysia – good luck fighting your way out of this slippery slope.
And how’d you assume my gender…was I that patronising?
The DG seems to be living in his own little world oblivious to what’s actually happening on the ground.
And just to add a question, what do you propose? That nobody should ever study to be a doctor ever again for at least another 15 years?
Well, you could start by closing down or merging the smaller private universities, but then again this IS Malaysia, no chance of that happening with the $$ you have in this industry. The thing is medical education and the health care sector is almost inseparable, so you’d have to overhaul the entire health care industry. Look what mass privatisation of health care has done to medical training – fat chance convincing the present specialists to give up their earnings and return to government service (which by the way is bloated). Most of the politicians have their children settled nicely overseas -says a lot about the likelihood of any change coming to this country, don’t you think? It is so easy to fantasise about better times when you know the future is screwed…
Your statement clearly shows your immaturity! Did I say anyway in my blog that don’t do medicine? I merely stating the fact on the ground that many budding doctors do not realise until they get into the system. I had many junior doctors who quit medicine and when I ask them why, their answer is always the same : did not know that medicine is like this, parents decided for me, i thought being a doctor is just sitting in a clinic and see patients and get paid well…etc etc. I am telling you the reality on the ground and reality hurts!! If you are ready to put up with all these frustration, then by all means go ahead, no one is stopping you but don;t say that you were not warned! Jobless doctor is a reality by 2018/2020. You can spend RM 500K to become a doctor but who cares, you will be jobless anyway. When that time comes, people will stop doing medicine as what you have said!
Sorry Dr Pagalavan, the reply did not appear in the section I intended – it wasn’t aimed at you or your post at all. The question was actually directed to “Huskies” who was going to be excited about “seeing the look on the faces of those future doctors”.
I just found it strange that people keep giving passing remarks on the likes of “don’t do medicine lah, NO FUTURE in Malaysia one”, and they do not stop to think, who the future doctors of Malaysia are going to be? At least now there are good and bad apples in the system; but if we continue to discourage all the good ones, what are we left with but bad apples?
It is of course ultimately our government’s fault that they allow bad apples into the system. There’s an indiscriminate handing out of “No Objection Certs”, no quality control of graduates etc etc. I realised that even in Ghana and Nigeria all medical graduates will have to sit for a common qualifying examination.
As for Huskies, I agree with the other things you’ve said. However I’ve heard that the grass isn’t so green on the other side as well. As an IMG in US, Australia and such you will be given postings that the local do not want. If such is the case, why not head of to East Malaysia? As for do you have a prostate, I was only assuming =)
Dear Dr,
Sorry for a deviated topic posted here. I’m a fresh grad staying in KL. I’m now considering my options to fill in for my HO posting.
1) We were told that those opting to practise in Klang Valley will be definitely transferred out to other states (most probably Eastern Msia) during MOship. Is this true?
2) There were some of my seniors who have done their HO training in other states eg Hosp Seberang Jaya, Hosp Ipoh… & managed to continue working in respective hospitals in Peds ward, Surgery ward etc. Does that mean not all the HO’s, who have completed their training, will be transferred out to district hosp/clinic in the same/another state?
3) Lastly, are Seremban & Melaka Hosp grouped in the category “hosp in Klang Valley” as there are some notions that they r in close proximity hence same rules apply.
Thanks for your feedback.
1) Yes, not only in Klang Valley but for all other states as well.
2) It depends on your luck as well as availability of vacant post in the respective hospitals. I was informed that MO post for the state of N.Sembilan and Malacca is deemed FULL! So, most likely all those who complete HO will be transferred out. The situation will only get worst soon with the glut.
3) NO.
Dear Jal,
Regarding your 2nd question, I assume that you wish to continue to work as a MO in hospital after housemanship. It is definitely possible cos there are MO leaving or become specialists year in year out. You will always get a chance to enter the department immediately after housemanship.
In fact, this is what I encourage my housemen to do. To me, working in district hospital is a waste of time. You don’t learn much over there cos nobody is guiding you. However you may gain more confidence in clinical judgement.
There are few ways that you can increase your chance of entering a certain department. Firstly, show your enthusiasm during your housemanship. Secondly, try to achieve some qualification, for example MRCP if you are interested in internal medicine. Nowadays, houseman’s work is no longer that heavy. It is not difficult to pass MRCP part 1 during housemanship. Thirdly, apply to do housemanship in the hospital which is expanding (i.e. new building). There are usually MO vacancies to be filled up once the new building is ready.
My doubt is IF all or most houseman think working in district hospital is a waste of time. Then there will be no good doctor going to work there. Specialist of course not going to district, then MO also not going to district and only ‘forced’ doctor (no cable) going there.
My opinion is when you go district, you are also learning how to manage the clinic and community health problem, educate the community and others. It is a kind of effective primary prevention. Unfortunately, most doctors think doctor is only treating patient in the hospital bed only.
I always think primary prevention is the best as it save cost and many people life rather than tertiary prevention where you only save one at a time.
The road of the medicine (at least in Malaysia) is predictable.
1. Get good result in SPM/A-level, go to medical school…..graduate
2. Work as HO then MO, grabbing post in department, pass specialist exam
3. After become specialist (won’t stay long in government) – some even resign in 24 hour after confirm exam is passed :(., some will stay for few years.
4. Looking for opportunity to go private and earn $$$
5. The cycle is repeating again and again
I think the KKM need to create opportunity for urban population to enjoy the service of good doctor.
Correction for last paragraph …..not urban but rural…..sorry
There wont be enough MO placements for every HO to stay behind in big hospitals, especially in the central region. A lot of people find district posting a waste of time, not unlike yourself. I wont comment much on the district in west malaysia, but as someone who has done district posting in rural sarawak, I really encourage young doctors who are willing to take a challenge to spend a year or two there. Yes, you might become a MRCP physician one or two years slower, but believe me, when you do become one, you will be a way better physician both knowledge and conscience wise than your peers who stay in big shiny hospitals with new buildings their whole career.
Working in a district hospital in East Malaysia is totally different. Having acute fetal distress doesnt mean chucking the pregnant lady into an ambulance and ship her off to the nearest referral hospital, it means going to OT giving spinal yourself and doing the caesarean yourself; having a cyanosed baby doesnt mean giving high flow oxygen on the ambulance to the big hospital; it means stabilizing and intubating the baby and arrange for medical evacuation helicopter and making sure the baby will do well with the change in altitude and pressure; and there are plenty of other examples that will make you realize that being a doctor in malaysia is more than just getting your specialist qualification and leaving on to ‘greener’ pasture in the private sector. Think back again why you want to become a doctor in the first place. That’s all I am saying.
Dear Kylee & Private,
I am sorry that I made a mistake in my comment. What I meant was “klinik kesihatan” rather than “district hospital”. I was also serving in a district hospital too anyway.
I found your comment on working in district hospital very meaningful. Young doctor can definitely become more competent doctor with those training and experience.
Working in Klinik Kesihatan is a totally different scenario in West Malaysia. The new MO suddenly become the boss, treating cases without further guidance. I always sigh when I see their management in patient’s biodata book, wondering whether they know what they are doing…
Dear Future Grad,
Regarding the future of doctor, we now very much depend on our own. It is no longer a fool-proof strategy to be rich. What Dr Paga tried to illustrate to us is the bleak future of doctor in general. If you are an excellent doctor, don’t worry, you will be doing fine.
Huskies just showed his frustration through sarcasm. Your comments on prostate are not pleasant to read. We must show our manner and maturity during communication with others. It will then win other respect on us. Sadly I found it truly lacking in many young doctors nowadays…
Dear Boss, sorry to say this , but our health care system is governed by idioitic morons who dont know any single thing regarding this noble profession. I was a doctor myself before deciding to quit after witnessing all this biasness, wastage and brain drain from this screwed up organization.I had a MO who dont even know how to perform a simple pleural tap.There is more i can actually tell but complaining is not the platform here.. If i did mention anythin which is very disturbing to anyone , for that i apologize.
Frustrated Ex-Dr
They’ve scrapped the MQE that was planned for all grads. Probably realised that a significant proportion of sponsored students will not pass the exam. I guess we’re back to square one now, in terms of weeding out the incompetent ones.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/6/10/nation/8873047&sec=nation#13076737883111&if_height=530
Somehow, I expected this flip flop. They will not implement this because it will affect all MARA and JPA scholars and some will decide to stay back. The current DG is a Yes man and I heard one of the reason for the previous DGs dismissal is because of these issues. He was sent off unceremoniously.
I should clarify my statement. I should have said: A significant proportion of students from certain universities (we all know which ones) will not pass the MQE. Many of these universities also take in sponsored students – and the govt will have wasted all their money if these students don’t pass. I have met a large number of sponsored students (bumi and non-bumi) sent to medical schools in UK/Aus/NZ who are competent when they graduate, because these med schools would have failed them if they weren’t.
Well, most if not all of the students from UK/Aus/NZ don’t return to Malaysia anyway…
You’ll be surprised Huskies. While I agree the majority stay, a fair few go home for various reasons (family, homesick, etc). Some regret the decision, some don’t.
Hi. I am a final year medical students in UK. The perception of “UK/Aus/NZ students (JPA/MARA sponsored) don’t return to Malaysia” should be changed over the next few years. It is not easy to break the bond for JPA scholars due to the large sum that is needed to pay back to the government. More and more scholars (JPA only) are coming back.
According to all the seniors JPA scholars that I know (more then 20) in UK, they have chosen to stay back but they only have to pay 10% of the scholarship to break the bond. However, for our batch of JPA scholars, we have to pay back the full amount of sponsorship (>RM 1 million). Thus, none of us (JPA scholars that I know) are staying despite being offered foundation doctor posting in UK. For Mara scholars, unsurprisingly most of them staying as they still only need to pay 10% of their scholarship. Interestingly, I also notice that a lot of my juniors (Malay) with excellent SPM result and good attitude choose to apply for MARA due to the condition in their contract that allows them to stay overseas.
Furthermore, from my 5 years studying experiences here, I have to admit that there are lots of Malaysian doctors, from foundation programme to consultants, in UK . I have been through my clinical attachments over the last 5 years in more than 10 hospitals across the North East region of UK including district general hospitals here. I have meet doctors from Malaysia in every single hospitals that I have been to. This sums up the amount of talented Malaysia doctors working in UK.
Funny thing, MARA stands for Majlis Amanah Rakyat, so what has happened to the “amanah” part of this program?
You can’t help but feel sorry for the bumiputra in Malaysia, MARA was established to improve the welfare of bumiputras, When the scholars who represent the future of bumiputra are willing to betray even their own race, how far do you think the race will progress as a whole? But at least the MARA scholars will get to taste what it feels like to be a minority in UK/Aus/NZ.
young docs urged to specialise?…biar betul..orang apply 2-5 tahun pun tak dapat. i’m done applying for masters
Wish you’d known this before starting medical school, right?
tell me about it…at least i can afford to do other papers on my own..and not be bonded
Dear Kylee & Private,
I am sorry that I made a mistake in my comment. What I meant was “klinik kesihatan” rather than “district hospital”. I was also serving in a district hospital anyway.
I found your comment on working in district hospital very meaningful. Young doctor can definitely become more competent doctor with those training and experience.
Working in Klinik Kesihatan is a totally different scenario in West Malaysia. The new MO suddenly become the boss, treating cases without further guidance. I always sigh when I see their management in patient’s biodata book, wondering whether they know what they are doing…
Do you have any advice on choosing a specialty?
Perhaps are there any particular specialties that, to you, seem to have better prospects?
Are you talkng about money? If so, difficult to say. 10 years ago Cardiology was hot but not anymore as most private hospitals are full with cardiologist. You can’t practise cardiology if there are no angiogram labs. Then came gastroenterology which is still in demand but may get saturated within another 5 years. Certain speciality has no much prospect in private sector such as Haematology, oncology and even infectious disease specialist ( mostly are trained to treat HIV which you can’t practise in private hospitals). AS for surgical field, general and laporoscopic surgery is still needed.
I didn’t really mean in terms of money, but I guess in the end it boils down to that, doesn’t it.
I actually meant like perhaps there would be a glut in certain specialties in a few years (which you have already read my mind and have mentioned).
Are there any particular specialties in which the doctors have more of a ‘lifestyle’? I heard that certain areas like opthamology and plastic surgery give doctors that, but due to the fact that so many doctors want to have some sort of lifestyle for themselves(what kind of doctors are these, haha), there will soon be excess doctors in such fields. What sort of fields does this encompass and what is your take on this matter?
You mean a more relaxing life? Generally smaller specialities have better life like you said: opthalmology, ENT, Public health, Family physician, radiology, anaesthetist etc etc but does not mean good money!
Haha, very true indeed. So which specialty would you recommend me to take up?
Up to you. You can decide after you complete your housemanship. Many will change their mind after housemanship. Some will even resign!!
Haha, so I’ve heard! At least it’s better in that sense, “survival of the fittest” after all. Okay then. because I’ve heard conflicting opinions from seniors. Thank you! 😀
Now there’s a new ruling that you can only apply for sub after 2years post gazettment. Have you heard of it? Is it true? Do you have any idea on the rationale behind it?
Ultimately, most cases seen by the internal medicine specialists are still general cases, only a percentage are there subspeciality areas, do you agree?
I am not sure of the 2 years but what I know is that you are only allowed to apply 1 year after gazettement. Of course, the more popular the field is, the longer it is going to take.
Yes, most cases will still be General medical cases especially when you are in private hospitals. certain field like cardiology may just see cardiology cases. Other than that the rest will see all cases.
Doc why do u say cardiologist only see cardio cases only? If private is saturated with cardiologists, shouldn’t they be seeing other cases as well since the share for this cardio pie is small to survive?
In government hospitals, cardiologist only see cardio cases. Most cardiologist in bigger well established private centres only see cardiology cases but in smaller hospitals they need to see general medical cases as well.
I just can’t believe this whole idea of a houseman doing specialization just after completing housemanship.Those days ( i mean some 30 years ago) people specialized after about 6-8 years of clinical experience only. As I mentioned in the article “Shift work for housemen” that I am seeing many HOs doing locum without even a valid APC , the quality of the upcoming super young specialist is going to questionable. I wouldn’t dare seek hospital treatment in time to come.HO period is the time whereby you get your basics right, what’s with this young doctors urged to specialise? This country’s medical services is going to the doldrums….PATHETIC!!!!
Specialising from PGY3 onwards (i.e. after 2 years as a houseman) is currently the standard in UK, Aus and NZ. There is probably nothing wrong with that as long as sufficient experience is gained in those first 2 years. However, due to the houseman glut in Malaysia, housemen are not getting the clinical exposure they used to get in the past. Hence why they will probably be dangerous as MOs.
The difference is : these countries have proper supervision and standards in training a specialist unlike Malaysia. That’s the reason it is not practical to do this in Malaysia
when things get saturated,,thats the option,,specialization as early as mentioned.
im studying in india,,where their students can apply directly after they’re grad from mbbs.
though the entrance examination is quite tough here,,
theres a time in OT,,during delivery,,on of PG student almost faint when seeing rush of blood from the mother. 😉 we, UG students expected them to be quite competitive,,but,, its funny actually.
anyway,,she is good doctor now,, 🙂
Dear critic
perhaps you have overlooked a very important fact here
it is not easy to get a masters post in malaysia upon completion of housemanship
you are subjected to numerous paper works, SKTs and also you are at the mercy of the office clerks who will usually misplace your service log… oops! it is as if you have never existed in government sevice!
please also bear in mind that the masters programme nowadays is different, more and more Masters programmes are coming up with a so called ” conjoint board ” in a futile effort to make it look like they are more organised, but to become a laughing stock. I received my exam slip after I passed the exam! during my exam I didn’t have any exam slip because the university never posted it to me and they didn’t know that the exam has started! what kind of conjoint is this? no unity! the university only contacts me when its time to pay the supervisor money!
so far the masters in OBG and also ophthalmology have started a conjoint entrance exam which you have to pass before getting a chance to go for an interview! for the masters in OBG entrance you have to pay RM500 and best of all it is clearly stated that even if you passed, you are not guaranteed a masters seat! because you still have to pass all paperworks, write a short essay of why you wanna do masters and also you have to pass the interview!
most of my colleagues quit the masters after 1 or 2 years.
what are the chances of fresh house officers who just finished Housemanship to get a PG seat?? I agree with Dr Pagalavan in what he has said.
I am speaking from my personal experience of have part 1 qualifications of both masters and an overseas board exam. Trust me, there are many finer details that one doesn’t know, it I ever knew what masters was all about, I wouldn’t have signed a contract that bonds me for 5 years, asks me to pay rm100,000 if bond is broken and gives me nothing!
well doctor, one Public Uni that emphasize on how we can produce willing at the heart doctors are UiTM. UiTM is the only public uni, which introduce pre-medicine programme to its qualified foundation students. Whereby, in the course the students are brought to be introduced roughly onto medicine world, like visiting the hospitals, seeing how clinic and hospitals are and learn few things on biochem, physiology and anatomy. We are also been preaching on the real life as a med student, whereby there are several senior lecturers telling us how their life were and what are the drawbacks as well as the accomplishment one will receive after becoming a medical doctor and what not a specialist. So upon completing the programme, perhaps some of the students will take note on their decision making. whether to continue doing medicine or vice versa. Although the duration is quite short as for a month to undergo and foresee the whole 5 years of real life as a medical student, but at least it will give some exposure to the students; and try to boost their deep interest in the field.
A programme like that is good but it also depends which hospital you are going to do the rotation. Hospitals like Sungai Buloh, Selayang, Ampang are NOT the hospitals that shows the true colours of health services in Malaysia. You should visit hospitals like HKL, Klang GH, JB hospital etc to know the actual reality. I am not sure whether you are aware that these hospitals are paperless hospitals with limited number of beds and are mainly referral hospitals. They reject many cases when their bed occupancy are full. It is far more relaxing working in these hospitals but that is NOT the reality on the ground.
However, UITM being the only racist University in the world is against my principle of unity and equality. Their degree is still not recognised elsewhere and ironically they are wiling to except foreign students BUT not their own citizen of other races!
Don’t be so proud of a university that only accepts students from one race. The students have no social skills in dealing with colleagues of other races. Anywhere else in the world that has a whole university for a single race? Don’t think so, not since apartheid was abolished on South Africa. Malaysia boleh of course.
hi sir,
i am 4th med student at overseases university,i would like to seek guidance to become neurosurgeon..what are the pathway available in malaysia n overseases
2 possible pathways:
1) do Master’s in surgery and then subspecialise in neurosurgery
2) do Master’s in neurosurgery by USM.
in UK: do mrcs and then undergo neurosrgery training, to get FRCS.
Hi sir,
I’m a 4th yr medical student at UCSI Uni, I’ve been interested in neurosurgery ever since 1st yr. I’m attracted to USM master in neurosurgery. However I have some queries.
1. If i;m to join the master programme, does it mean i’m not working as a MO anymore and only purely attending the courses in USM? without payment?
2. Am I trained only in USM hospital? not any other such as hukm or UMMC?
3. How difficult is it to enroll into the programme?
4. If i start as Master in general surgery in UKM, is it also purely course attendance without job and payment during the 4yrs.
Thanks.
It is very difficult to believe that somebody is interested in neurosurgery from 1st yr in med school, shows an absolute lack of insight. Clearly you are interested in it either because of fame or because of the perception that you make loads. And from the way you talk about training, you have absolutely no interest in making yourself competent in the first place, instead just purely hoping that the course will get you a qualification and license to kill rather than the appropriate competency. I have some advice for you.
1. For a lot of your patients’ sake, please do not do neurosurgery. You will kill a lot of them on the way.
2. Learn your neuroanatomy and be competent in doing a proper neurological exam first before daydreaming of neurosurgery.
3. Study your neuropathology properly first instead of cutting up every patient who presents with headache. I guarantee you won’t like it if you come to me with a headache and the next thing I tell you is I need to cut your head open.
4. Pass your MBBS / MD first by being really competent and be a competent doctor first. There is no point daydreaming of neurosurgery when you can’t even interpret a chest X-ray or ECG properly.
5. Please do not ask me to be your anaesthetist. I will not entertain your request knowing that the person on the table is better off without you cutting off his / her head.
Kind regards.
Dear sir,
It look like you have jump too soon to your conclusion without knowing my background well enough.
Thank you and i will take your advice. But please also take my advice;
1. do not be arrogant
2. Do not jump too soon to a conclusion.
warmest regards.
Dear Poh,
You are right. I do not know your background, you might have a PhD in neuroanatomy, or worked as a neurophysio before entering med school. Or maybe your parents are neurosurgeons. What I am certain is:
1. You are currently not competent as a doctor YET, for the simple reason that you haven’t finish med school.
2. You have not passed basic surgical training yet, or even acquire any surgical skills, therefore it is too early to even say whether you have the attributes and dexterity to be a surgeon at all, especially when neurosurgery involves microsurgery.
3. It is dangerous to want to be a specialist before first becoming a generalist, which is what you are doing exactly at this stage by claiming that you are interested in neurosurgery since 1st year in med school. A good surgeon is one who knows when to operate, but an outstanding surgeon is one who knows when not to operate. I hope you understand this.
4. You haven’t been with a neurosurgical team for a period long enough to understand and appreciate the care required for neurosurgical patients, therefore you have no insight into what neurosurgery is about, unless you have been working for 10 years in a neurosurgical team before joining med school, which I highly doubt.
5. If you claim that you are so enthusiastic in neurosurgery, please cite your work in neurosurgery. Being a med student is no excuse for not publishing anything in the field of your interest if you are indeed so enthusiastic.
6. It might be too early to jump into conclusion, and one day you might end up to be a brilliant neurosurgeon, but that is for the future. For now, even if you are the gold medalist in your med school or has an international prize in neuroanatomy doesnt mean you make a good doctor. At the moment, it is definite that you aren’t good enough to interpret ECGs and CXRs accurately yet, unless if you have been doing it for the past 10 years, the reasons behind this statement will only be appreciated once you completed your full HOship. Furthermore, with your current mentality that you are dead on becoming a neurosurgeon, does that mean that when you do your HOship in O&G, you are just going to do the bare minimum to pass that rotation ? How is that fair to your patients when you aren’t doing your best for them ? And please stop bullshitting about being able to excel in both. Once your heart is so fixed on neurosurgery, it is unlikely that you will bother to improve your O&G skills to a sufficiently high level for the safety of your patients. Once you subspecialise, it is very difficult for you to go back to be a generalist, which is the very reason why you should not think of a specialist field like neurosurgery at this stage. Even at my stage, I do not focus on neuroanaesthesia.
For this moment of time, you are pretty much like a lot of medical students in Malaysia, even some HO. Essentially you are already thinking of running before you can even walk. This is the very thinking that is producing dangerous doctors across all fields. You need to appreciate that a neurosurgeon is first a doctor, then a general surgeon, and only after that a surgeon with a special interest in neurosurgery.
Best wishes.
FYI The reply above is not from me!
First of all I think you should not decide what you want to do before you complete your housemanship. Many things can change along the way. I had many friends and juniors like you but just ended up resigning or do something else. You will only know the pros and cons of doing something when you are really doing it. In Malaysia, neurosurgery is the most depressing field to be in. Almost 90% of the time, you will be dealing with head injuries due to motor vehicle accidents! and nothing much can be done. For your questions:
1) There is no such thing as a full time postgraduate course in medicine. Every postgraduate course is a part time course, meaning you work while you learn. Thus you will con’t to work and be paid.
2) Only USM offers Master’s in Neurosurgery. However, the training is usually in HUSM and HKL.
3) Since only 1 university offers this course, the number of intake is usually less than 10 per year! with 6000-8000 students coming into the market by this year onwards, it is going to be very difficult to get into this programme.
4) as in 1 above.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
Yes I know, I’m just referred him/her as “sir” for my respect to someone much senior than me. Perhaps I should have put sir/mdm. Sorry about it.
Because USM website mentioned full-time coursework which made me rather confuse.
Thank you sir, for replying and clarifying it.
regards.
dear Poh,
nice to hear that u r interested in neurosurgery.
i myself is a neurosurgical trainee doing master program in USM.
just would like to give u an idea about the pathway of pursuing postgraduate study in neurosurgery. but the requirements might change with time. so i only can tell u the current situation.
to apply for the master program in neurosurgery, a candidate must sit for an entry exam and if successful, then proceed for an interview/viva.
but before applying, the candidate must be a MO who has at least in the general surgical posting for 1 year, and at least in neurosurgical posting for another 1 year. in view of limited places, the longer ur experience in general surgery and neurosurgery, u will likely to have the advantage compare to other candidates. (in average, a candidate normally are in service for 4 years in general surgery and neurosurgery before enter the program). if u have passed ur full MRCS, u can be exempted from taking the entry exam and proceed to the interview/viva. during the interview, the professor from the university, representatives from KKM (including head of neurosurgical department from different states) and pioneer neurosurgeon in our country will take turn to ask u questions, not only for ur knowledge, but including ur research works (if u have published paper related to neurosurgery will be an advantage), and of course ur general attitude. so the total marks are based on these different aspects.
averagely the university only take 4-5 candidates per year. but in 2010 and 2011, the number has increased to 8 candidates per year. this is a tough course, averagely only 50-60% will pass the year 1 professional exam.
although it is written as a full time coursework program, all the candidates are still working as MO as usual. u r working and at the same time studying. this is the best way of learning. and u will receive ur salary as usual. if just only full time class room lectures (just like undergraduate program) then it will be producing only textbooks doctors like most of the HO now, just work like robot :p
besides the training in HUSM, u will have the chance to do your clinical rotation at different KKM appointed training center which include HKL, Sg Buloh, JB, Kuching and Kota Kinabalu. HUKM and UMMC are not KKM hospitals.
similar to master in general surgery in UKM, u will be working as a MO with salary as well.
i agreed with Dr. Pagalavan and “Anaes SHO”, that u need to concentrate on ur current undergraduate study and complete ur housemanship before u decide which area that u r really interested in. u need to prepare urself very well when u r still a medical student in order for u to function as a competent and confident HO later. all the basic stuff r very important. as a neurosurgeon, we will see paediatric cases (eg congenital hydrocephalus), ortho cases (polytrauma), O&G cases (intracranial bleed in pregnancy), general medicine cases (multiple medical problems patient comes in with brain tumour) etc, etc.. we have to know the basic stuff like intepreting the ECG, CXR, ABG, fluid management in paediatric group, using of aspirin and warfarin in certain group of patients.. besides doing surgery, we need to take care of the patients before and after the surgery, including nutritional therapy, and intensive care. u need to learn all these basic stuff very very very well while u r still a HO. then u would be competent enough to function as a good doctor no matter which specialty u r choosing.
after u have completed ur housemanship and done ur district MO posting (which is very important to train u to work independantly), then u can request to attach to a neurosurgical department, and to see if this field is really suitable or not. it is important to know that: interest is one issue, whether u can enjoy ur work is another issue. some “interested” MO quit neurosurgery after few months joining the neurosurgical department. it is very stressful for a junior MO to manage critically ill patients if lacking of basic medical knowledge and skills (remember, all the neurosurgical patients are “fragile”).
to me, as a medical student or junior doctor, one must be humble and keen to learn from the seniors. a positive attitute is very, very important. and never for a student or junior doctor to behave like a “tin kosong tapi berlagak sombong”..
wish u good luck in ur study and success in ur future career.. hope these help u.. 🙂
Dear Dr.Simon Sim & Anaes SHO
I hope I’ve addressed you right. Thank you very much for the information. All of your advices will stick to my mind.
Best wishes,
Poh.
Dr Paga,
Will u shed some lights on pathway to become oncologist?
I come to know about the master programme in oncology, for which upon completion and gazettment you will be gazetted as oncologist. But what about general physician who is keen to do oncology as subspecialty, are there any options?
Some of my colleagues are getting qualification in hospital management, in the hope of becoming medical director. Experience aside, what are the other requirements? And you being a medical director yourself, what are the expectations placed on you?
You need to apply for subspeciality training under MOH.
Yes, in the future , all hospital directors need to have hospital management qualifications. However, how many hospitals are there in this country? Each hospital only need 1 director! Not necessary for hospital director to be a medical doctor. As a medical director, my job is mainly concerning ethical and problems involving the consultants in the hospital. Of course I am also involved in some admin job as well.
currently, i’m doing ho. i would like to be a cardiac surgeon, so could you please pave me the best way to further on this field…..in malaysia and possibly in united kingdom as i got offer from MARA to get the sponsorship to specialise in this field oversea.
warmest regard,
Mearz