So, here you are! As I have been saying over the last 1 year, with 33 medical schools in the country we will achieve a ratio of 1: 600 by 2016 and 1: 400 by 2020. We should also not forget about the foreign medical graduates from various countries in the world. Of course, those students who are going overseas for medical educations from 2012 onwards (if the amended medical act is tabled in Parliament by this July), will have to sit for an entrance exam upon returning home. This will be used as a filtering mechanism. After achieving the target (too fast, too soon) , what’s next?
So, for those who did not believe what I have been saying about jobless doctors, please pay attention. It will become a reality. The number of graduates will increase exponentially from now onwards. Almost half of these medical schools have not produced their graduates yet. Furthermore, most of these medical colleges have not achieved their maximum capacity. For example, Monash is targeting 150 students intake by 2012 compared to 100 now. Newcastle is targeting 180 students compared to 40 students in their first batch (currently in year 3). So, the existing medical schools will continue to increase their intake , if not they will not be able to make any profit.
The worst is yet to come when all these doctors are going to curse themselves for being a doctor. The postgraduate market is very much limited and the private sector is becoming very saturated. Most GPs are not doing well either. I was told that the latest survey showed that only about 30% of GPs are making net profit of more than 6K/month! So, if you are in for the money, please forget it and choose something else rather than wasting your hard-earned money in doing medicine. Put the money to good use. You will never get back what you had invested, trust me!
The government will not be able to provide job to all graduates by 2016/2017. They may introduce an exam to filter out some students. Or you will be asked to serve rural areas for years and you will never be able to say NO. Some graduates may end up in pharmaceutical companies or as paramedics like what we have seen in countries like Thailand, Vietnam and India.
This 5 years freeze is not going to make any difference. God Bless…………….
Five-year freeze on new medical courses effective immediately
By ALYCIA LIM
KUALA LUMPUR: A five-year freeze on new medical courses, to prevent the glut of trainee doctors in the country from worsening, has been approved by the Cabinet and is effective immediately.
Higher Education Minister Datuk Seri Mohamed Khaled Nordin, who announced this Thursday, said the moratorium would not affect the number of medical staff required by the country, and that the focus on quality would be ensured.
“We are looking at a doctor-patient ratio of 1:400 by the year 2020, which fulfils the requirement of an advanced nation.
“From the number of students currently enrolled at the 33 higher education institutions nationwide, we can achieve that target,” he said at a press conference, after signing a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between Open University Malaysia and Master Builders Association Malaysia.
Mohamed Khaled added that the current doctor-patient ratio was 1:1000.
“The ministry will focus on monitoring the quality of the medical courses currently offered, and for institutions that do not meet the criteria and skills accreditation, their current recognition may be recalled until they improve.”
In December, he had said the moratorium would prohibit the launch of new medical programmes in the country, with existing medical schools encouraged to focus more on quality.
On Nov 27, The Star had highlighted concerns over the glut on the number of housemen and the quality of fresh medical graduates.
As of Jan 31, Malaysia has 33 higher education institutions offering medical courses, including 11 public higher education institutions and 22 private ones.
Medical fraternity welcomes temporary freeze on new medical courses
KUALA LUMPUR: The Malaysian Medical Association (MMA) welcomed the Higher Education Ministry’s decision in imposing a five year freeze on new medical courses on institutions of higher learning in the country.
Its president, Dr David Quek, said the move would give enough time for institutions of higher learning in the country to produce experienced and quality medical graduates.
“Medical graduates cannot be produced at the drop of a hat, without proper planning, like the teaching force, training facilities and clinical items. It is impossible,” he said when contacted by Bernama here Friday.
He said this in response to a Thursday announcement by Higher Education Minister Datuk Seri Mohamed Khaled Nordin that a freeze of five years on new medical courses had been imposed on institutions of higher learning in the country.
The moratorium was decided based on several factors, including the marked increase in the number of medical graduates, competency of housemen, teaching staff and teaching hospitals.
Chairman of the Medical Dean’s Council, Prof Datuk Dr Nik Mohd Nasri Nik Ismail, said the council members unanimously agreed with the government’s decision as there were already enough medical courses in the country.
“There has to be some control. There are about 33 public and private institutions of higher learning which offer medical courses and this is enough to meet the country’s need for medical doctors in future,” he added.
Dr Nik Mohd Nasri, who is the Dean of Universiti Sains Islam Malaysia’s Medical Faculty, said that during the moratorium, there was a need for public institutions of higher learning to improve and enhance medical studies at their respective faculties.
“After three years, we will review the situation to see if the freeze is still necessary.
“The Dean’s Council will discuss the matter with the Higher Education Department and the Malaysian Medical Council,” he added. – Bernama
Pagalavan's Avatar 
Dear sir, thank you for sharing this.
May I ask, sir, do you have the list of the 17 IPTs that are recognised (by the Government) for their medical courses? I would like to know (these IPTs). Should you have this fact in hand, could you post them on your blog? Thank you.
Please visit the Malaysian Medical Council website. The list will be there, http://www.mmc.gov.my
thank you sir for sharing.im one of the students in the mdical field.i just want clearer explaination.the higher education minister freeze the intake for new medical students in the future or the minister will freeze some of the IPT as the production of more medical students?
NO new medical schools. The current approved ones will continue to take students, probably increasing their numbers!
Sorry for asking since Im not very clear with the implications of this action. Does it mean that there will be no new intake of medicine or just that there will be no new IPTA/IPTS offering medicine?
NO new medical colleges!
Dr. Pagalavan ,
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/5/6/nation/20110506165700&sec=nation
Isnt this good news for doctors?? :S
NOPE! the tax exemption is for the hospitals and NOT for the doctors! Medical tourism do not benefit all doctors, only certain hospital and certain doctors. Hospitals in Penang and Malacca do get a lot of INdonesian patients but that’s it. Rarely any Thai patients come here, same goes to middle east and Vietnam. Middle east patients usually go to Singapore or US as their fees are usually paid by their country such as UAE, Arab Saudi, Kuwait etc.
Dr Pagalavan,
Pertaining to the tax exemption, more and more hospitals will be built, especially foreign health care centers will want to set up hospitals here, isnt it? this in turn provide more and more job opportunities for doctors in the private sector? Doctors will get a higher pay too isn’t it?
Nope, again you are wrong. Private hospitals DO NOT employ doctors. You are self employed! No patient No income. So, having more and more hospital will reduce each doctors income! And having more private hospital does not mean having more patients, you are fighting for the same pool of patients.
Prince court hospital which was set up for medical tourism, joint venture with Austrian uni is a big failure and they are planning to sell their hospital!!
I don’t think the embezzlement of funds by management in Prince Court helped either, heh heh.
I think the new hospital in ampang is the winner of the above tax examption.
so beside these 17 institutes which have approved to continue the intake of new medical student, does it mean to be including new intake of medical student in overseas institutes?
don’t understand what you are trying to ask!
i mean is it possible that parents send their kids to overseas institutes for medical courses?
Yes but from 2013, whoever go overseas need to sit for an exam upon returning. So no guaranteed registration and job
i see. thank u for that.. can u tell me more about the NOC? is it everyone who want to go for medical courses must have a NOC in hand?
Yes for overseas
“A five-year freeze on new medical courses”
maybe is their way to promote dentistry 🙂
does this mean some medical colleges which are in planning has to be scrapped off? such as in Besut, Terengganu; the one that signed agreement with RCSI
I don’t think so. Those which has been approved will continue unless they have not been approved yet.
Dear Dr. Paga,
I fully agreed with what you had been saying. I think the problem is the mindset of parents who want their children to become doctors at all cost. What they don’t understand is doctors nowadays are no longer that well-respected compared to the past. Thanks to a few bad apples who are not qualified to become doctors in the first place. The huge investment put in to study medicine will never be reaped back. I really pity those parents who sell their house, cars, and end up with huge debts. Anyway, I can foresee the existing private medical colleges will increase their intake to maximise their profit. This new rules will not change anything as parents will still eager to enroll their children in these colleges.
Though the glut of doctors will be a big problem but the concern is with the qualities of these doctors. So, having a common exam for all graduates regardless of foreign or local grads is the best option. I really hope the government will implement this
there are loads unqualified to become doctors produced and producing by local universities. look at the “quota system” and “priority” in education.you’ll understand.
There are many Filipino doctors working as nurses in US for better economic prospects. Let’s see whether this may happen to Malaysia medical graduates.
Js, i agree with you. the problem is the mindset of some parent. it is even more prevalent in a certain race (i m sorry if i sound racist) , who wants at least their sons to be a doctor. I was even told that one of the reasons to study medicine is because it is a good prospect for marriage, this was told to us by an ex-MMA president. seriously, he was not joking.
Esther, you’re right it does sound racist, apology accepted. Racial stereotype of Indian parents wanting their children to be professionals, be it doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. Similar racial stereotype about Chinese parents wanting their children to do business to make as much money as possible – hence the relatively recent interest (i.e. past 20 years) of Chinese parents wanting their kids to do medicine after hearing about the amount of money than can be made in private. Sorry – no more gold mine there.
Hi, Dr. Pagavalan!
Thanks for this information. Dr, I want to pursue my degree in medical field(medicine). I’ve just finished my foundation programme. The reason why I want to be a medical doctor is because that I want to help people in the rural area in Sarawak like the dayaks and sabahan people or to serve to the community. I know that I have to be mentally and physically prepared if I choose to be a medical doctor. I am not chasing after the title ‘Dr.’ and money. Is it true that not all medical doctor would like to work in rural area? Why not? I’ve seen one of my family member died because of the careless mistakes made by the doctors who work in my village. He told his family that he was fine. But his stomach, I think his liver is expanding so much(or in other words bloating!). I feel so bad when I know that he died 4 days after my visit there. I don’t mind to work in the rural area as long as I can help my people@dayaks to live longer and healthily. Money is nothing to me but I would like to serve to the community. It is my passion!!! By the way, love reading your blog. Keep on writing, doc! Thanks
I admire your intention to help people in rural area. Working in smaller hospitals and rural areas do have it’s satisfaction. However, you must understand that a doctor can do only so much. In most rural hospitals, the facilities are so much limited that you will not be able to diagnose or treat many condition, no matter how good the doctor is. You also must understand that being a MBBS doctor does not mean anything anymore. You still need to do speciality and that cannot be done in rural hospitals.
Calvin, if you intend to work in a rural area, specialise in Family Medicine. If the area you want to work in has some sort of small hospital which has Medical Officers, you can be a career medical officer. Just make sure that you have a good grounding in all the important subspecialties. Work as an MO in a larger hospital first, esp Medicine, Surgery, Paeds and O&G. Then you can move to your rural hospital but always try and go for courses or attachments at the bigger hospitals to keep up-to-date with current trends. Isolated practice is one of the most common reasons for losing your competence (e.g. many ‘champion’ GPs in Malaysia)
Dear Calvin,
If you are really passionate, you can even start now! (yes, even as a student, you dont have to wait till you’re a doc to serve your people). Why not organise a project (with your friends, colleagues etc) in any village and enlisting the help from the local hospitals there? ex; raising funds, bringing a mobile clinic into the village, giving health awareness talks (you can speak about the importance of hygiene, sanitation and a healthy diet – as a future medical student, it helps to have awareness of what constitutes these). because from my understanding of you’ve written, you come from a rural area. i believe that would make it much easier for you to undertake this project. sure there will be a lot of work involved but trust me, the experience is worthwhile and you’ll never exchange it for the world. also, by doing this sort of thing, you will be making a difference in the community. and this will definitely prepare you to become a good doctor if you really are interested in helping to improve the healthcare of your people.
Thank you for the reply, I really appreciate it. How I wish I could go down to my village and help the community. I am from Kuching, Sarawak and I have village in Bau. Dear doc, may I ask some question again? Forgive me. Because I really want to know your point of view. I want to take MBBS in private university or maybe oversea universities in Indonesia(Most of it MD). Is it good to study locally or abroad? What is your point of view? I really need your answer. I have a friend with low SPM grade with score of only 2A’s and the rest with Bs and Cs but he can pursue his medical degree in MBBCh in Egypt! I was quite shocked because how can he with his SPM results can further his studies abroad. Student like me with score 9As and 1B+ cannot even get the chance to further degree oversea what more to say to study in public universities. Try to imagine how easy people nowadays can get into medical faculty in any oversea universities WITH A LOT OF MONEY! I think quality is better than quantity. Please respond to this question. Thanks.
it is good to study medicine in an internationally recognised university overseas but these universities are very expensive unless you are going on a scholarship. The entrance qualifications are also very strict. If you are planning to only stay here in Malaysia with no plans to go overseas for training or migration, then local degree is good enough. Most Indonesian universities are not internationally recognised.
Yes, you are right and I had said it again and again that medicine has gone so cheap. If you look at the Star every weekend, there will be adverts for medical degree where they guarantee a seat even if your result is so poor that you don’t even qualify for Form 6!! I had posted it in my blog before.
You can still try STPM and get into public university if you are willing to take the risk.
Doctor, I’m a JPA scholar, and will most probably be studying in Monash University next year for MBBS… Just wanna get a clarification, so all these things won’t affect me going into Monash, right?
nope
I am totally speechless when i read this comment. Do u all see this? They just don’t understand what is the real situation of our health care system. Students are ONLY concern on whether they can get into the MBBS or MD or not. That sounds most important for them. They never think of what they are going to experience and what kinds of problems they going to have in the future……
Blame our education system! Never prepares our student with future career propects!
please la… I’m just asking a simple question here… Please dun judge me based on ur biased perception… Do u think I’m not concerned just because I didn’t asked abt it in the comment above? Just reading ur reply to my comment makes me even more speechless!
Dear Dr,
What should I do after I’ve finished my HO and MO? Is it wise to do speciality? Can I do speciality and still earn a living?Any other ways to earn more money?
There is no money in medicine anymore, period. BUt you can still earn a living just like any other profession but not a luxury life!. Do you know that a good lorry driver with a good transport company can earn more than a doctor? After completing 4 years of compulsory service , you have 3 options: either specialise , remain a chronic medical officer or become a GP by opening a clinic. To specialise, it will take another 4-8 years. You can remain as chronic MO but with almost stagnant salary, after 12 years, you will get U54 salary of about RM 7000+. Becming a GP is not easy anymore as I had mentioned above. Many are struggling unless you move to rural or semirural areas. However, you may not be able to charge high rates in these areas and thus will need to depend on patient load. A net income of about 10K/month can be considered good enough!
Specialising will involve a lot of sacrifice and money as well. After that, no guarantee you will make money. Private hospitals are too many and competing each other. Income of each doctor in these hospitals have already started to decline slowly over the last few years and will continue to do so. Remember, private hospitals DO NOT pay you a salary, you are considered self employed and what you earn is what you get!
Dear Dr,
As what I know, some private college (MAHSA, PMC, they just want money!) do provide allocate the MBBS courses for those who are not eligible (as in All B’s or C’s in their A level or foundation). Just wish that the government will keep an eye on this case. Most of my friends even score less than 4 A’s in SPM and they are enrolled in MBBS course. Maybe the government can just take JPA students and also some local Universities’ graduates but not others.
yes, I have said this many times in my previous postings. There must be a standardised entrance exam for medicine and not some dubious foundation programme which is just an eye wash.
I do agree with you that the enrollment filtering system is shockingly loose when it comes to MEDICAL profession. The government and the medical institution should understand that they are actually the deciding party in shaping our medical health standard.
However i do not agree on the suggestion of just taking JPA student or some local universities graduates only when in comes to practicing in Malaysia. On what grounds do you think that JPA student and Local U is the best? I believe there are a lot of bright student who was not fortunate enough to get selected. And those who were selected were not all bright as well. I would prefer the method where ALL medical grads (Local + International) take the same selection exam after graduation, though i cant say that it is the best method because i believe double standard will somehow be implemented eventually. Technically speaking, it is still the fairest.
Life is never fair. It is from now onwards that you will face reality of life. Yes, I do agree that a common entrance exam is the best way but being in Malaysia, nothing is transparent and fair. Since JPA scholars are government sponsored students, they are bonded with the government. Same goes for the local uni students who are all sponsored by JPA. Thus, the government has no choice but to provide them a job! I am still waiting for the time when foreign graduates need to sit for the entrance exam after the medical act is amended. I wonder what will happen to the JPA scholars if they fail!
Hello Dr,
Do this newly implement system will affect those who wants to further their studies for dentistry?
NO
Malaysia freezes new medical courses for 5 years…
That is called racism. They don’t want Chinese and Indians to get medical degrees because they know that both these races would resort to get their medical degrees from private universities. That is why they freezed the intakes of medical students in private universities of Malaysia. The Malays would normally enroll in government universities for their medical course. This is called UMNO’s social engineering to make sure that Malays remain on the top and to opress the other minorities! Get it!
I think you are wrong!! The gov is only freezing new medical colleges and NOT intakes. The current private and public medical colleges will continue to enroll students. NO one can prevent anyone from doing medicine!
What a bunch of nonsense. While I agree that Malaysia has many racist policies, there’s no need to look for it in areas where it doesn’t exist! There are already more than enough medical schools to satisfy the demands of parents of any race. In fact, they should amalgamate the smaller and not-so-good med schools to decrease the numbers even further.
Dr, i think there was some truth in jason’s comment. the other reason is because there are now too many medical school, so it is tough for the private medical school to recruit student and if they dont recruit any Tom, dick or Harry who can afford to pay the school fees, they may just have to close shop.
Yes and it will happen whether there is going to be a freeze or not. There are just too many medical schools already and the goverment should encourage these medical schools to merge. Again, the gov is not preventing any person from doing medicine and thus jason’s comment is not valid.
Somehow, “someone’ must have made a lot of money approving all those medical schools.
I am a 3rd year medical student in IMU, and I must say, I am glad Im to be in IMU. Even though, life is all about lectures, skills,PBL, MMS, postings, but, I must say IMU’s syllabus does show me the way to life long learning. Students in IMU are more competent, to their studies and dedicated to their work. For example, our holidays are used to revise&postings, our lectures are full house, our lecturers are fantastic and our management is understanding.
Yes, you may call us nerds, but we will be saving lives and being the top doctors you can see. let aside a few “bad apples”. Besides, we do have a good social life with all those interaction with medical personnels during our posting.
IMU selects the best and then, moulds students to be life long learners.
I believe, even though the government has approved so many “medical schools” the true doctor lies in the heart.So dont just become a doctor for the glamour, but be in it for the life long learning experience. Only medicine will let you learn all through your life.
If you are hard working enough, and prepared to learn all through your life, then you’d make it to the top. If not, why bother doing medicine?
Dr, have you seen IMU students in Batu Pahat? How are they?
Generally IMU graduates are good and IMU do maintain good standards. They would not hesitate to kick out any students who are not performing.
IMU students also tend to have an over-inflated view of themselves when they start working – similar to how the UM/UKM grads used to look down upon the Indian grads 10-15 years ago.
I would still rank IMU as the best private medical school in Malaysia but, like all the other private institutions, money is their number one objective.
Even IMU’s standard has dropped. Year after year they have lost partner medical schools. I know for certain that one of the partner schools have sent a retired surgeon to IMU to teach IMU lecturers how to teach clinical skills. So, don’t think so highly of yourself, you are no longer anywhere near the standard of past grads.
hello doctor. i will be pursuing my MD in one of the university in Indonesia (University of Padjadjaran) this august. Thus, do i need to sit for an entrance exam as soon as i come back here as a graduate? and is the job guaranteed for me here in msia?
Entrance exam probably not but job may not be guranteed!
http://www.nst.com.my/articles/Medicalcoursefreeze/Article/
Only 17 out of 33 medical schools being accredited..
That’s because most of the rest just started recruiting. The accreditation usually takes place when their first batch reaches Year 4/5. Rather odd but that is how it is done! Furthermore, some do twinning programme only and may not need proper accreditation especially when the student is graduating from elsewhere.
Dear Dr
Pordon me for addressing another issue in your page.. I’m a senior house officer. I just want to share with you 1 latest issue that u might want to know and comment.
For your information, currently the new director general has come out with 1 big new idea for HO. He want to introduce “working in shift’ for the HO. The plan is that all HO must work in 3 shift (AM, PM, NIGHT). That mean no more on call and no more claim. And he claimed that, if the HO works 2 night shift bck 2 back, then he/she entitled a day off (which i think very unlikely to get). Is this working hours same with paramedic staff?? I think so.. Will it work like the paramedic staff??? I doubt that..
Why this idea came out? Because of the oversupply of the junior doctor. I’m not sure whether this is a good idea or not. But for me, being a HO in the hospital that need to be a ‘pilot project’ for this idea is very stressful.
I hope u can comment regarding this issue.. thanx..
I knew this is coming sooner or later. Which are the hospitals involved? Do you have the circular? I will write my comment in my latest blog entry
This thing will start in my hospital 1st. I’m working in 1 of hosp in Pahang (sure u can guess which hosp). Sorry can’t give the name of the hosp coz this thing is not official yet from KKM. It is juz ‘an experiment’ from both of the DG and Hosp Director.
I don’t know how they gonna proceed with it, but currently all HOD is really in dilemma. Apparently, the order from director that we need to start this not later than end of this month.
I still can’t imagine how this gonna work with the duty to cover the wards, clinic and OT (surg based posting). In other hand, HO’s also are gonna lost some of their income from on call claim( for those who need the money like me).
Our current DG was Pahang State pengarah before! I am sure he would asked few other hospitals as well. Income of doctors will definately drop sooner or later. I will write something in my blog about this soon.
Good afternoon Doctor.
I am a student from IMU. I am doing the IMU-PMS option. I am just wondering, upon completion of my degree at australia, must i sit for the entrance exam?
Not yet. It will only affect the students who enters medical school after the Medical Act is amended. However, the government can decide on ad hoc basis if the glut goes out of control!
Hello dr!
I am a post spm student who is keen in pursuing medicine. I feel that this five year freeze is a good move as it will prevent a surplus of jobless doctors and even doctors with poor quality skills and knowledge.
I have tried to obtain a psd scholarship but was denied one despite having 6A+ and 4As and obtaining A+ for all the subjects relevant to a medical course as well as being a school captain and active student. However, friends of mine with only 3 and 4As have been given scholarships to study medicine in egypt, uk and local institutions. So, even after imposing a five year freeze, how can the government ensure the quality of future doctors. It saddens me that social justice and fairness are not practiced in the education field and noble careers are compromised for money and other political reasons. But this will not be my reason for giving up and i will carve my own future.
Dr, what is your opinion on flying doctors or in other words doctors who are flown into third world countries, countries facing natural disasters and war torn countries to provide medical aid? Do you have any information on a flying doctor’s career path or related organisations?
I intend on being a flying doctor as i am not in this profession for the money nor the title but for the simple act of giving back to the people with the knowledge and skills that i have acquired.
As far as I know, the most prestigious and arguably successful flying doctor service is the Royal Flying Doctor Service of Australia.
You might want to have a read for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Flying_Doctor_Service_of_Australia
http://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/About-Us/Our-History/
However, if you’re referring to a global humanitarian organisation, then medecins sans frontieres or Doctors Without Borders is probably the most famous one. Now the thing with MSF is you’d actually have to be a full-fledged physician or surgeon before you can join the organisation as a field member. They do NOT provide training for junior doctors!!! Considering the number of years one has to put in after graduation to become a specialist, I’d dare say most if not all doctors would at least expect some form of financial return from their profession.
You might feel enthusiastic and hopeful right now, but do you realise as a volunteer, you are not only forgoing a fortune that you’re entitled to, you’re pretty much giving up whatever social life you have left after residency training. You can forget about having a family of your own, not to mention your own life will be in danger should you be dispatched to war-torn regions.
It’s pretty obvious why so few doctors ever choose to devote their lives to humanitarian movements – let’s see how your motivation keeps up when everyone around you is earning fat paychecks and has his or her budding family, while you slog your body away in some of the most brutal conditions known to man.
And if I haven’t convinced you enough, check out this documentary about MSF:
http://www.livinginemergency.com/
The 5 year freeze is NOT going to change anything. We have 33 medical schools where half of them have not produced their graduates yet! These colleges will continue to increase their student intake to make profit. Already we are seeing more than 4000 new doctors reporting to duty last year and with all these colleges begining to produce their graduates by 2015/2016, the situation will only get worst. Remember, the government is NOT freezing the intake or increasing number of students in these colleges!
I am sure your friends who got 3 and 4As are of certain racial background. Welcome to reality! This is Malaysia and there is no such thing as transparency and fairness. It is from now onwards that you wil realise the reality of life in Malaysia.
As Huskies has said, flying doctors for humanitarian services is a voluntary work. No payment involved. There is no such thing as career path is this social service. We even have MERCY in Malaysia who does social services in countries affected by disaster. However, this is NOT a paid job!! You may be enthusiastic now in talking about doing social service without money etc etc , because you are still leaving with comfort from money given by your parents. Please take away your parents and what would you do. You need money for everything , even to do social services. That’s the fact. Unless your parents leave a fortune for you where you don’t need to work for another 100 years !
A doctor cannot do much with just knowledge and skills!! trust me. Without medicine/drugs and equipments, a doctor is as good as nothing ! This is the reason why I write about the reality in the ground as many people like you feel that by being a doctor you can save lifes etc etc. Remember, only less than 20% of the time, you can actually save a life. Most of the time you don’t!! I had seen many medical students who fell into depression when they entered clinical years of medical school after seeing all the sick patients in the ward but doctors can’t do much to save them!
Life is not just about doing medicine. You also have social life, family life and earning a living! No matter what voluntary work that you want to do, medicine is still a way of earning money for a living.
However, I disagree with Huskies about doctors earning a fat paycheque!! That era has gone. I am now seeing specialist who are even earning less than 10K permonth in Malaysia. I know of an O&G specialist who just joined a private hospital 6 months ago only earning less than RM 5K permonth!! Overall, all the specialist income in private is dropping gradually.
Dear Dr. P and Huskies,
Thank you for your feedback! I understand that you are providing me a real picture of a doctor’s lifestyle today.
I am not joining this profession because of the money or title but i am well aware that i am going to need money to live and being a flying doctor is something that i am interested in doing after being a more senior and experienced doctor. I intend to work as a doctor and become a fully fledged specialist before joining volunteer organisations. Volunteering is one of my goals in life but then again i do agree with both of u that things will definitely change when reality checks in. Regardless of any profession that we are part of, earning money is a must if we intend to last even for a day in this world. As you said doctor, aside from a career, i do want a social life and a family life someday like most people. These things matter to me as well. But if time and events in the future permit me to volunteer then its something that i’ll like to experience. Even if it means volunteering for a short period of time or whenever possible. Again, its something that is undecided and that i will have to choose depending on how the future unfolds. That’s all. 🙂
Thank you again for the links and information! As for the psd scholarships, you are absolutely right dr! Reality hit me right in the face! Shocking at first, then came the frustration and bitterness and now the acceptance of the inevitable and moving on with life. I am doing my A levels now and just living every moment to the fullest (a typical teenage/ young adult symptom) until the next phase in life. Will be reading your posts from time to time so keep writing doc! Cheers! 🙂
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
Thank you for your posts.
I had received an offer to study medicine in Poland after completing my A-levels locally. At first, I was not so sure about pursuing medicine, but the interest is there and I am eager to learn.
Therefore, I would like to ask your opinion about this scholarship whether I should take it, study locally or venture into something else?
Thank you for your time.
It is all up to you. I can’t decide for you. If you are willing to put up with all the frustration that I had mentioned in my blog and have passion in medicine, then go ahead. If not , find another field.
Poland came into the picture only the last few years and thus I can’t comment on their product quality.
I really have no idea where all the SPM students get their interest from – seriously do they even know what studying medicine is all about? I suspect it has something to do with all the stupid medical dramas on TV nowadays (read House and Grey’s Anatomy) along with their parents’ deluded expectations concerning the profession.
To clueless, if you think medicine is cool, I suggest you go to a library and browse through a couple of medical textbooks, specifically on biochemistry, pharmacology and pathology. If all that stuff appeals to you and you can bear with sitting down all day memorizing terminology, then by all means go for it.
Yup, I agree. Too much TV programmes.
thanks for thinking that way about spm leavers.
hello sir,
i am mr.mohsin shaikh from India ,age 17,i am a junior college student science.i want to take medical field to make my future .i am intrested in doing MBBS in vietnam .what is allowence for foreign students and what are expenses and percentage required for international student. plz help me i will be so thankful to u.
yours friendly,
mohammed mohsin shaikh
hello sir,
can i do mbbs in vietnam,ho chi mihn city .are there any private medical colleges there plz help.
i would be thankful to you,awating for your reply.
yours obediently,
mohammed mohsin shaikh
I don’t think so. Even if there is, it is not done in English!
Good day dr, i would like to hear you opinion about the faculty of medicine in aimst university…what do you think about their quality of graduates.? as they claim to have the best ‘clinical skill centre’ in the country n producing quality graduates…
http://mma-medicalstudents.blogspot.com/2011/04/aimst-1st-preclinical-medical-quiz-2011.html………this is an article i found about aimst regarding the recent pre-clinical quiz….AIMST university even won against IMU….n they were just 4 points behind The National University Of Singapore….in your opininion Dr, doesn’t this reflect their quality.?
When I was in secondary school, I was part of my school team that entered a national-level physics quiz organised by The Star newspaper. The winners were from different schools every year. It was an indication of the quality of the students sitting the quiz at that particular point in time, not necessarily the school they came from.
Being a doctor is so much more than getting first or second in a quiz or exam for that matter. I’d go as far as saying that some A+ students should never be let near a patient – they belong in a lab somewhere.
The description of the whole event sounds like some PR exercise (many private medical school websites are full of PR nonsense). Nonetheless, kudos to AIMST for performing well in the quiz. Interested to see how they would do in a quiz not set by their own lecturers.
I don’t understand what all the fuss about AIMST is all about. It all started with one guy (Raj – see above) asking Dr P what he thought of AIMST. This is exactly what was asked: “Good day dr, i would like to hear you opinion about the faculty of medicine in aimst university…what do you think about their quality of graduates.? as they claim to have the best ‘clinical skill centre’ in the country n producing quality graduates…”
Dr P gave his opinion, as he’s entitled to, and then so many people get all defensive. If you have your own opinion, that’s fine, it’s your right, but you should not then personally attack and insult people who may have different opinions from you.
If you think that AIMST is the best medical school in Malaysia, then good for you. I hope you’re right. Chances are, you’re not. And you will find this out for yourself when you hit the workforce.
Wow! I’m really baffled how people cannot even entertain the possibility that their university may not be that good. If you think you are smart, there are 1 million people smarter than you out there.
Really the heated defence of AIMST university by some commentators shows their arrogance, poor insight and lack of maturity and exposure. A bit of humility would go a long way to make better doctors. I hope they would not be so arrogant to say that their know everything once they graduate since they are from “the best” university. Sad to see such is the attitude of medical students.
Dr.. Whatever you say… Aimst University is still one of the Best Medical University in Malaysia!!!
I know of a few students who went to study medicine in Russia (MMA, RSMU), Most of them cannot cope after 3rd year and some 4th year, so they stopped studying in russia and came back to msia and some join MastersKill and also MAHSA., they start to study from the beginning that is pre-med at local uni..
the reasons why they came back are only known to them. I was told some of them cannot cope and also they were kick-out by the Russian Uni bcos of repeated failure in exams. And yet our local medical schools take them in.. These students are probably forced by their parents to study medicine . It is not surprising that all these students are Indians and some of their parent are even Doctors operating their own private clinic. Dr pagal, are you aware of his happenings? Can we get more statistics of those who dropped out of foreign uni n came back to msia to do medicine start from scratch? Their parents are all out to make their children a DOCTOR! and probably have a lot of money to burn.
This is nothing new. Even MARA scholars who fail overseas are absorbed into our medical schools. What more private medical schools. However I don’t have the exact statistics.
YAWN~~~ Reading all those comments up there really is boring… For all the trolls of AIMST up there, for God’s sake, can u just stop defending ur lecturers?? Oh deary deary me, NO ONE EVER INSULTED YOUR LECTURERS, alright?? =.=
From,
A neutral observer
ACTUALL NEUTRAL…THESE GUYS ARE CERTAIN LECTURERS FROM FOM ..ONE OF WHICH I BELIEVE IS MR.RAJESH..DEPUTY DEAN PRECLINIKAL..THIS JOKER ONLY WILL DO CONIVING THINGS ..LA…VERY SNEEKY FELLOW LA !! VERY FUNNY LA THIS FELLO..ALWAYS LOOKING FOR SOME INNOCENT VICTIM TO BULLY!! OR SOME COCO..’NUTS’ TO POLISH!!!
Dear Dr,
I am currently a final year medical student studying in a local public university. I strongly agreed that clinical years study is the most important part of undergrad study. I had finished 1 out of 4 major posting in my final year. Even I passed the exam, I do feel that I am not competent enough to practice in 8 months time.
However, my university does not have its own teaching hospital and I find having difficulty to have teaching session in the ward.
Firstly, most of our clinical lecturers are expatriates and they usually do not participate in the clinical work for the hospital due to language barrier. Therefore, the relationship among MOH staff and the university is not close and most of the time, the students learn from the patients in the ward only. As for clinic, since our lecturers are not posted there, we hardly have any chance to see variety of cases in the outpatient department, which is very important since majority of patients are actually not acute case and therefore not admitted to the ward. And as usual, these patients usually turned up for exam, especially for short cases examination. I am quite worried since I am not confident enough / not able to pick up the signs and symptoms.
How about the local lecturers? Yes, we did have local lecturers here, but they won’t stay for long period. Most of the local lecturers actually joined the university initially because the university would sponsor them and ensure that they have a place for master programme (I think MOH did reserve some places for master programme to each local university’s lecturers/MO), in exchange of few years of compulsory service to the university after they got their master degree. Sadly, after they finish with their compulsory service, they left the university for better job with better income. There makes number of lecturers not sufficient. My bed side teaching session is carried out by 1 lecturer to 15 students, all surrounding 1 bed at a time. Sometimes, I barely can hear the discussion if I was standing far behind.
Some might says that MOH staff can be “adjunct lecturer” to teach the students in OPD. However, nowadays there are a lot of specialists in OPD, and the university does not have enough budget to pay for all adjunct lecturer. Therefore some MOH specialists are not willing to teach, although there are some kind MOH specialists are willing to do “charity” work to teach the students without claiming any money from the university.
The situation in the OPD is also not suitable for teaching and learning. In one particular room, there are 3 doctors seeing patients simultaneously. With staff nurses, patient’s family around, one can barely move around in the room. I feel myself as a space occupying lesion whenever I join the clinic session.
Just few weeks back, the Malaysia accreditation team came to my university for quality assessment. They interviewed me and some of my friends. As usual, we were requested not to tell negative parts of the university, else the same thing as CyberJaya university might happen to us as well.
Thats the problem I would like to share here: not only private university, even local university also has problem in terms of clinical years teaching. How I wish the university could have its own teaching hospital and more lecturers!
Yes, this is exactly what I have been saying all this while. I still feel UM/UKM and USM are still the better medical schools in the country because of the reasons that you have just mentioned. The problems above is the same in all private and public medical schools in this country. Not enough lecturers and no proper training. Unfortunately you are wise enough to know the importance of clinical teaching compared to a lot of other students who think that just because they have some lecturer coming for their tutorial , the university is excellent!
seriously quite disappointed with the edu system..
UKM sells their cert in Alliance…
Now RCSI & even John Hopkins…(can see RCSI everywhere)
i joined Melaka-Manipal because of the 2 teaching hospitals….
however,.. i only realize after i reached here that…
they do not actually filter their students!,..
student undergone only 6 months of pre-U also accepted
or with a level less than CCC
many mara student who rejected by Aus school also taken
(60% in my batch is mara+jpa)
in this era, its useless to get 3A* in Alevel as public uni will not entertain u,
and u can get into private uni with CCC only(as long as u have money)
then y study hard?
At least you are wise enough to understand what I am trying to say all this while. Private colleges are just here to make money on our ignorance. However, some still don’t seem to get it and make all kind of accusations.
Good insight CC. The demand for private education by non-Bumi Malaysians is what has fueled the boom in private med schools. These jokers have set up these med schools because they knew they could make money.
When I started med school in the late 90’s, I had friends who got in to melaka-manipal with DDD and EEE, so consider the CCC an improvement. Many students with EEE now go to eastern europe.
The fact that the rich students with poor results have better educational opportunities than poor (non-bumi) students with good results is a sad reflection of Malaysian society.
eastern Europe also? even CHARLES UNIVERSITY in prague? they are the top 200 in world?!!
anyway is there anyway to continue my studies after i graduate? Because i realize Melaka Manipal is giving their own cert, not from Manipal University which is world recognized. can anyone give me a brief guide regarding the pathway to specialize with a non-world recognized degree?
Especially eastern Europe. E.g. Russia, Ukraine, etc. They have set up English-language medical schools which are basically cash cows, alongside their native language ones. All the rankings you may see are for their native-language med schools, not these parallel English ones.
And if you think Manipal University offers a ‘world-recognized’ medical degree, you are seriously misinformed. Its world-recognized as a producer of medical students. Students from all over the world go there to do their medical degree because it’s easy to get into and they market themselves well overseas (because they are a private institution). American students of Indian background go there even, then sit the USMLE to practice back in the states. I’m not saying that they don’t produce good graduates, I’m just saying that calling it world-recognized is a bit of an overstatement. Real world-recognized Indian medical schools are AIIMS in New Dehli, CMC in Vellore, Lady Harding in New Dehli, Grant Medical College in Bombay, St John’s in Bangalore, etc.
yeah that y, now i feels that every med school is “cheating”… by using words like recognize by WHO, MQA and JPA~ i myself is a victim to those advertisement~
if u say those american can go for USMLE so is it possible for me(from Melaka Manipal) to take the test and further my studies there?
Yes, anyone can sit for any licensing exam but remember that each cost a lot of money and preparation. There is no guarantee that you will get a job anyway!
YES, I have been saying this all the while in my blog that all private medical schools are just cheating everyone but many Malaysian are falling into the trap especially those whose parents are not from medical background.
To CC:
Of course you can. The name USMLE says it all – United States Medical Licensing Exam. LICENSING!!!
But then again you might also want to know that only around 50% of IMGs (International Medical Graduates – this includes you and probably a couple of thousand more Indian and Pakistani doctors) will be able to match into a residency each year. You see, passing the USMLE doesn’t guarantee you a job as you’ll need to apply for a residency yourself (through the ECFMG). It’s a time-consuming process and costs roughly 10-15000 USD. Plus, you can pretty much forget about all the competitive specialties, namely dermatology, radiology, plastic surgery etc; you won’t stand a chance unless you score something like 270+ on the Steps.
That’s just of the tip of the iceberg. There are basically two types of working visas for foreigners in the US: J-1 and H1-B. Most employers will only sponsor the J-1 visa which is a temporary visa and you’ll be required to leave once the visa expires. The other better one is the H1-B, which qualifies you for the “Green” card, but is subject to a federal government quota, thus making it harder to obtain.
There are tons of information on the net regarding the US residency application process. You are NOT the first to consider this and certainly won’t be the last; doctors from third world countries (mostly) have been migrating to America for the past few decades, depriving the home country of much needed health care professionals, but hey in life there has to be winners and losers, right? It just so happens that the losers will keep on losing…
Just a side note, but are you aware that America owes China 1.1 trillion US dollars? 🙂
Do you know that Melaka-Manipal degree is not even recognised in India!! I think I have writen about pathway to specialisation in my blog before. Please visit my ” for future doctors” page. With your non recognised degree, you can only work and do Master’s locally. If you want to go overseaes, pls do their respective entrance exams/licensing exams with no guarantee that you will get a place.
I realized it after i enrolled. Before this, i was fooled by their advertise experts… by saying the certificate is given by Manipal University (which refer to KMC according to them) and i did check it online, KMC really get recognized by Singapore… Anyhow when i on my way through 1 year i realize that Melaka Manipal can go no where except Malaysia and Sri Lanka… what a sad case for me…
KMC was recognised for only a very short time, like 2-3 years. Singapore Medical Council withdrew their recognition in 2007.
CC, if the representation by Melaka-Manipal was promissory in nature and made within a short time frame before you signed up for the program, it could be grounds for you to seek damages (ie. sue them for cash). Not sure about the situation in Malaysia, but most commonwealth countries have consumer protection acts that enable you to take action after you had purchased a product that was falsely represented. It may take some time though.
woah thk man, ur really informative!
yeah i know that, regret that i rejected the china’s mbbs offer… even Singapore recognize it but not Malaysia. My parents asked me to serve our country and our peoples but the situations just making me more and more disappointed…
i dont want the US green card… as long as i can study there and come back afterwards. is there any other country i can further study? I heard that GMC(UK) do not accept schools like us anymore…zzz
can u brief me the path to specialize?(psychiatry)
after finish my HO years what should i do?
The only way to do Psychiatry in Malaysia is by doing local Master’s programme. After HO and 1 year of MO, you can apply for the Master’s programme. NO guarantee that you will get it in first try especially when there are 6000-8000 new doctors coming into the market annually from this year onwards.
to NAV i found the tread for specialize already, thk anyway~
I’m pretty sure you’ll have second thoughts about returning once you complete your residency in the States. Anyway, have a look at the 2011 Match Result. I suggest you spend some time analysing it:
Interesting categories:
For non-U.S. citizen students and graduates of international medical schools (“Non-U.S. IMG”), the largest numbers were
matched to:
Internal Medicine (Categorical) (1,215)
Family Medicine (363)
Pediatrics (Categorical) (256)
Psychiatry (Categorical) (147)
Surgery-Preliminary (PGY-1 Only) (129)
Neurology PGY-1 and PGY-2 (126)
Medicine-Preliminary (PGY-1 Only) (115)
Pathology (106)
Top five specialties with at least 10 positions in the Match and filled with significant numbers of independent
applicants (calculated from table):
Pediatrics-Primary (PGY-1): 57.6 percent
Emergency Medicine (PGY-2): 52.6 percent
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation (PGY-2): 48.8 percent
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation (PGY-1): 46.5 percent
Family Medicine (PGY-1): 46.4 percent
A few more pointers regarding the USMLE. Technically, you can only take it once, as you are NOT allowed to retake it after you have passed. So, some candidates choose to deliberate fail the paper if they realise midway through the exam that they are not performing up to standard (you get to retake if you fail). This system alone probably weeds out a good deal of candidates. You don’t necessarily get to choose which specialty you want, your score dictates which residency you get, unless again you score extremely well in the Steps.
If I were you, I would definitely finish up my HO (register with MOH as a back-up) and then study for the USMLE while you work. With the shift system soon-to-be implemented, you’ll have plenty of time to work your way through the pre-clinical stuff. Alternatively, you can study for the USMLE in medical school and take the exam/do clerkships in the US during your holidays. This way you can take off in the US right after graduation.
PS: For some reason I seem to be having trouble posting comments on this thread. Maybe the administrators can address this problem?
I got no problem posting any comments. Probably your network problem?
I’ve had this problem before too. It’s weird. I think wordpress identifies posts that have been approved before and uses the email / username as sort of a password to auto approve posts by users who have been approved before.
Huskies: thank you very much with ur precious info
to Dr: I’ve read ur post about MRCP, i have a question here, do MRCP exam applicable to anyone who finish 1 year of HO or only for those who held UK recognized degree?
Anyone as long as you are listed in WHO, if I am not mistaken, unless they have changed recently.
Dr
Another query regarding academic vacancy which institute is better AIMST or newcastle?
Newcastl better but they are still new.
dear sir, r u against amist university?kindly give me a true advise on it.should i join it as a lecturer.
I just heard that KPJ might be starting medical school. With the number of hospital and specialist they have (many of whom were former lecturers) do you think they will fare better than the many existing medical school ( in term of quality of training)?
I doubt so. I have heard about this almost 3 years ago. Firstly, KPJ hospitals are scattered all over Malaysia. Consultants are busy with their workload in these hospitals. Patients in private hospitals may not want to be disturbed. So, they will still need full time lecturers and which hospital are they going to use : private or public?
hey
Dont these private college negotiate also! do they have so many lecturers coming that they find no need to do so!
When these private colleges are low on lecturers, they just make do with what they have. They sometimes buff the numbers by counting honorary lecturers that don’t really work there. MMC rarely ever takes action. You can’t negotiate because these colleges will go hire lecturers from Burma, India, Pakistan, Indonesia etc – being paid RM 10k a month is a lot more than they would be earning in their home countries. With endless supply of lecturers from 3rd world countries, why should they pay Malaysians more? To treat patients, they must have a MMC-recognised degree or postgrad but to lecture medical students, they can be from anywhere.
Nav has given the answer
Ya but ultimately they are only teaching students,they can come from whichever world they want to come, isn’t imparting knowledge a good thing does coming from country defines anything??if someone agrees to work in less its his choice.Its the govt which draws such line not the doc who merely are looking for better opportunities.
“only teaching students” … obviously not very improtant then
Imparting knowledge is a good thing, as long as the knowledge is there to impart. Also there is a proper way to impart knowledge. I have no problem with foreign lecturers in Malaysian universities, as long as they are qualified.
However, we will not progress if we cannot attract the best Malaysians to teach in our universities.
Of course they must be qualified else why would they be appointed in first place by malaysian universities? see the same problem goes everywhere doc’s of every country feel the same way,but its the policy that needs to be changed rather than cursing doc coming from abroad,they are merely being human to get attracted by green paper which they deserve surely. And everybody after slogging for 10 yrs know the proper way of teaching just few exceptions can’t be generalized.
Actually, there are many who are not qualified to teach in the Malaysian system. Our medical standards are actually pretty good at the specialist level, although the rot may be starting to creep in.
Just talking about my own specialty (anaesthesiology), I can give you 2 examples of foreign specialists hired to teach in our universities that should not have been allowed to work here. One Burmese specialist in a public hospital did not know how to administer sevoflurane, one of the most common anaesthetic agents in use in Malaysia and other developed countries. Another working in a private uni, from the subcontinent, “did not believe in using LMAs”. So you see, paper qualification from certain countries doesn’t count for much.
I don’t think anyone was ‘cursing doc from coming abroad’ as you so inelequently put it.
Finally, just because you have been ‘sloggin for 10 years’, does not mean you know how to teach. There is a art and a science to teaching. Some of our med schools (many of the public ones and some better private ones) have set up medical education units. These are run by those who have postgrad qualifications in medical education, and there to teach their staff how to teach. Almost all med schools in developed countries already have these (except maybe the very new ones). A good clinician is not necessarily a good teacher.
well surely you are hell bend in your beliefs.lets not generalize it,it was mere discussion and keep it that way.i was looking forward for an healthy reply not this esp.
To Hope,
All discussions have healthy and unhealthy replies. So if you are into a discussion, prepare to accept others opinions. You cant expect one sided discussion.
To Dr. Pagavalan,
I heard from friends that the shift system is inevitable though the DG and HODs are having pointless discussions. It will be implemented this coming September.
Yes, it will be implemented from September onwards nationwide! As I said, our DG is hopeless!
Despite all sorts of comment about Aimst U, I couldn’t get a place to study MBBS at Aimst 2 yrs ago. Now I’m in the 2nd year at MAHSA and the fees here is much higher than that of AIMST. I’ve 3 As and a B for A-Level. I’ve personally called AIMST why they don’t select student based on results and merit. They answered me that the 200 places for MBBS was full. They have 60 JPA government sponsored scholars who scored full 9A+ and above in their SPM from their foundation in science stream every year. The balance 140 places goes to top scorer with at least 3.50 marks and above, which is selected from their own yearly 700 over foundation science student plus other A-level and STPM student who have better results. I’ve no regret to study at MAHSA now, but my preference is still AIMST Uni as they are a ful fledge medical university and others like MAHSA, Cyberjaya, Masterskill, Segi etc. are still remained college status untill now.
That’s the reason I always believe that there should be a common pre-U exam for entry to medical school. We should remove all these foundation programmes which the Unis are using as an eyewash to get students. I have seen many top SPM students going down when they sit for STPM or A levels.
Dr., thanks for your comment. I actually don’t have any big plan on my future course of study, after my first degree MBBS. Similarly my younger brother, just after SPM intend to study MBBS as well, probably after pursuing a foundation in science course, locally. However, I find there’s not much choices of places to study in Malaysia for fees that is not so expensive, say between 250K-300K which is still affordable for my parent. If overseas U, definitely, it’s more than 300K except maybe Russia / Ukraine/ Bangladesh which I got feedback as not advisable. We just want to be a general practitioner to serve the community. On behalf of my brother, I shall really appreciate an advice from you Dr. for a place of study which is reasonably affordable. We’ve surveyed IMU, Monash Malaysia and Newcastle Msia, all at least 400K + to complete the course. It’s not worth for my parent to spend so much especially if we have not had any plan to pursue specialist field yet. Highly appreciate an opinion from you Sir!
I think Royal College of medicine Perak, Melaka Manipal should be OK. BUT i must warn you that there is no future for general practitioners. When the government introduces 1Care system by 2015, a lot more restriction is going to be put in place. Zoning wil be implemented and only limited number of GPs will be allowed to open clinic in each zone. Even to open a GP clinic you may need to be a spceialist ( family medicine specialist) by then. Many GPs are already struggling even now , so what more in 5 years time.
Dr., thks so much for your advice. Your blog here is very informative and I hope u’ll continue to write and comment in this column. I think we Malaysian will find your comment very useful, not only for potential medical student, but also for parents who wish to send their children to pursue medicine, enabling us to make more wise decision b4 we commit anything. As I’ve read certain comments which are not so respectful against u, I hope u’ll not disheartened by any irresponsible person’s comment and opinion. Your comment is very straight forward and down to earth which is derived from your personal assessment and experience. Furthermore, your comment and opinion are free of charge, what more do they want you to do, saying good thing about their college or universities? What we need are general public’s conception and opinion on current issue in our country which we could hardly findly as there are a lot of thing being swept under the carpet. Therefore, your opinion and info has help us a lot. Again thk you Sir.
Thanks. I always feel that ” you should not bark at a barking dog”. Every argument should be based on facts and not emotion. I never get disheartened as I know who is making a fool out of themselves.
We should not bark at a barking dog.The truth is we should stop a barking dog barking unnecessarily because it disturbs others.Thats the point.
Its true that we should talk based on facts truth but dont miss to consider other aspects before making a definite conclusion
A barking dog who barks at a thief who is trying to rob your house is not disturbing anyone but letting you know the consequences! No one is making a conclusion, we are trying to make the public to be aware of what is happening around them. It is up to you at the end of the day to make a conclusion!
Do not take or believe any comment or post here without thinking the pros and and the cons.It might not totally correct or vice versa.A wise people would always analyze,criticised,and consider every facts or opinion before making conclusion without getting influenced by bias or untruth judgement generally.
No one is making a conclusion here. You should read more. It is about telling the public what is happening around them and it is up to them to find out the truth. Don’t think the public is stupid and cannot decide on their own.
I think Manipal Melaka is not recomendable. Not only the MMMC Melaka not recognise by Medical Council India (MCI), the Manipal University itself in India at both Manipal and Mangalore are no longer recognised by MCI. The Health Ministry of Malaysia is in the midst of rearranging our sponsored student in India by studying the possibility of arranging transfer credits to other recognised universities for them to complete their MBBS. Please refer this website by skorcareer :-
http://skorcareer.com.my/blog/manipal-university-status-leaves-medical-students-bummed/2008/08/09/
That MCI issue happened few years back and it’s all about bribery and corruption, after which the previous committee of MCI was dismissed by the central government and another panel was formed to run the current MCI. Singapore Medical Council reacted so fast to this issue and subsequently withdrew the recognition of KMC.
If you talk about recognition by Malaysian government I dont think there is a problem. JPA is still sending students to KMC, the latest batch has just joined in August this year.
Regarding MMMC, their entry requirement is just too low, a lot of private students got in with the result of BBC. That’s why most of their toppers or gold medalists are JPA scholars.
@soulmate, thks for your explanation. I was confused by that article earlier.
hi. my name is Jane and I’m doing my a-levels and graduating in June. I have read the comments above all of which I find very informative and further my insight into the universities, the issue about the freeze years, and general thinking of the students from the universities. I met some doctors who work for both the government and private hospitals(due to my hospital attachmen. most of them recommended IMU. so I applied and obtained an offer to do IMU-PMS and the entry requirement is AAB .I applied IMU-PMS because a 5-year local mbbs is merely recognised in msia and another country which I could not recall. it would be difficult for me to further my studies and do my specialized degree. but here comes the problem. IMU-PMS could easily cost RM 800k(including living costs) if I’m to twin to UK. twinning to AUS and NZ would cost maybe RM100k more. do u think it is worth it?
the ultimate reason why I applied IMU-PMS is because of the overflooding number of MBBS graduates in Malaysia. my mother has a friend whose son did not get posted to ant hospital until 1 year later. this issue is getting more and more heated as the years go by and by the time I graduate in 2017, life would be hard for me. thus my mum hopes that I could graduate overseas, so I still have a job whenthingsvdeteriorate.however, according to my peers, friends and seniors eho are studying medicine, the chances to do HO and MO overseas are.pretty low especially in UK because of the European policy. and even if I get to practice there, things would be so smooth because after all, I’m a foreigner and patients maybe be fussy about doctors. besides, not only the working environment, but also the symptoms of sicknesses would be quite different there. what is ur opinion?
I heard that UCSI is planning to construct a training hospital but I doubt its reliability. do u know much about this issue?
I’m planning to apply to USM with my A level resul soon. according to ons of the comments above,without 3 A*, one doesn’t stand a chance to enter the public universities. but my forecast was merely 1A* and 3As and my advanced subsidiary level ( a-level half-exam) carries not super high percentiles. what should I rdo?
IMU-PMS is still the better option if you want to keep your option open in the future. Forget about USCI, they don’t even have enough lecturers.
IMU stands for ‘International Moneymaking University’…can u spare me some loose change…say a couple of thousand usd?? sure u can eh?? loaded ma..no poblem for you lo… for my spm i got 10 straight A1’s…I no money , no connections…so jaga lembu la!!!
Don’t be misled by obsolete information. Other option like Penang Medical College, Newcastle University and Perdana University (RCSI, Dublin) are far much better than IMU internationally in recognition and status.
Haha, I think it is you who is being misled. None of the universities that you mentioned are internationally recognised!! Most of them are even struggling to get enough lecturers.
By the way of introduction,my name is Jonathan. Thk u to Dr Pag for ur effort in this forum, very much appreciated, ur information is both sincere and truthful. Being a doctor graduated from IMU – Auckland, who is currently persuing mental health as my specialty, sad to say there are so many narcissistic future doctor arguing with you. Please continue your boldness in your comment. For Jane who is thinking about going overseas, pls do so, it is really an eye opener to see the standard of medical studies and care in the western world. I wish you well in ur future, being a doctor of humility, not of narcissism as shown by many above.
Dr P said IMU-PMS, not IMU. IMU-PMS means you do your first 2.5 yrs at IMU and then you transfer overseas to a partner medical school and get your degree from the university you transfered to, not IMU. That, in my opinion, is much better that Newcastle Malaysia (note recognised in UK) or Perdana University (not recognised anywhere).
Going to PMC gives you an RCSI degree which is only recognised in Ireland .The UK does not recognise foreign students with Irish degrees because it knows that Ireland has made an industry of foreign medical students. Even Singapore does not recognise the PMC-RCSI degree. If you can’t get an internship post in Ireland, then your degree is equal to one of the many unrecognised private unis in Malaysia, in that you can’t really work anywhere else without sitting exams.
Sorry, meant to type “not recognised in UK” for Newcastle Malaysia
I think not much choice or no choice at all for recommendation of a good medical schools if your intention is to work overseas. Even as I’m studying in one of the public universities locally now, I know that none of the foreign countries recognise our public universities’ medical degree except probably Indonesia alone.
UM and UKM is recognised by Singapore and many graduates from these 2 universities are making a bee-line to singapore last few years. With the glut that is coming and limited postgraduate oppurtunities, having a unrecognised degree wil make your life very difficult.
U meant UCSI lacks lecturers? Does that mean that UCSI just simply get some on-and-offs to lecture the students? Dear nav above, u mentioned that PU isn’t recognised anywhere. I got an offer but a doctor told me that PU-RCSI is crap because it’s too new, less-than -100 students and that RCSI comes here probably just to get the fund to do their researches. If PU isn’t recognised anywhere, does that include Msia? And NuMed isn’t recognised in UK? oh gosh I’m never aware of that. Does anyone know in-depth about studying medicine in USM?
With regards to NUMed, my comments may have been slightly outdated. Previously, for your degree to be recognised by the GMC, you had to have completed your clinical years in the UK. This is one of the reasons ASEAN-Sheffield failed, because they did their clinicals in Ipoh. The other reason was of course the collapse of the ringgit in 1997-98.
However, this is from the NUMed website:
“To gain full GMC registration as a holder of a UK primary medical qualification NUMed graduates would need to complete a programme for provisionally registered doctors and be awarded a Certificate of Experience. At present, the only recognised programme for provisionally registered doctors is the first year of the foundation programme (F1) provided by the postgraduate deaneries of the UK. Applicants from outside the UK and EU should note, that as NUMed graduates, you will potentially not be able to complete the first year of foundation training in the UK leading to full registration, as under prevailing UK immigration rules you may not be able to get a work permit.”
Essentially, it says that while you are allowed to apply to the UK for houseman jobs, immigration laws make that highly unlikely. In the UK, the number of Foundation Year (houseman) jobs is tied to the local medical school. NUMed is not linked to any British hospital so the jobs don’t really exist for them.
RCSI and the other Irish medical schools have been whoring themselves to foreign medical students for years. RCSI have had the foresight to have multiple branch campuses in order to rake in the $$$ – 3 in Malaysia alone! I am not saying that their teaching is substandard (it’s probably the opposite), but it is not recognised outside Ireland without full registration with the Irish Medical Council. If the degree from PU-RCSI is an RCSI degree (like PMC is), then you have a small chance of getting a houseman job in Ireland (same problem with immigration laws). If it is a PU-RCSI degree, then no chance.
um, i have tonnes of typos in the previous comments. is NO instead of SO in the comment posted on the 6th. =P anyway thanks dr Pagal. Please do continue writing the blog entries because, there just aren’t many who are able and/or willing to, u know, let people be aware of the new policies and issues and let people see the hideous things that lie in this profession.
From report released in S’pore recently, there is a glut of doctors in this small Island in the next few years, worst than Malaysia. They prefer other countries’ degree than the Malaysian degree, even though twinning degree IMU-PMS. Apparently S’pore recognised our MU and UKM degree out of goodwill b’cos we recognised their country’s university degrees. Your info could be a bit outdated, like the above reader said, as UKM and MU entry qualification are not like those old days where they took in only HSC or STPM student. Now over 90% of the medical degree student come from the one year Asasi Matrikulasi qualification which is very, very much lower standard than the normal world wide acceptance standard such as A-Level. Sorry for typo error again.
jane, you can easily find out the list of medical schools recognized by the singapore medical council. If you have never seen it before, here is the link:
Click to access Second%20Schedule%20-%20Registrable%20Basic%20Medical%20Qualifications.pdf
Who knows why SMC recognize UKM and UM, the important part is, both these universities have not been removed from that list.
Even though SMC recognizes many medical schools from various countries, they don’t just take in anybody who graduated from these medical schools, more so when there are more doctors applying to work in singapore. They can just pick the best candidate and obviously various factors such as medical school/academic achievements and etc are being considered. This is a reality in everything..e.g, comparing a graduate from Oxford and UKM applying for an accountant job. Who do you think the company director will pick? I know who i will pick!
Jane, can you show us the link about the report on the glut of doctors in Singapore?
Yup, you may be right. Singapore may also face a glut of doctors soon. Even during my time,the only way to enter medical school in Malaysia was via STPM. Only 3 unis were available, Almost 40% of the students are from STPM. I must agree that this percentage has reduced but still, only the top STPM and Matriculation students enter these universities. I must admit the standard of these once top public universities are dropping day by day due to various factors.
Jane, your comment, to a certain extend, is correct. Dr. P, most likely was from the STPM era,not even the HSC era. He did not have a complete grasp of the student’s standard in our country’s universities, especially, the public universities. A high percentage of doctors produced nowaday from local public universities like UTM, UKM and MU are mostly from the ‘easy passage’ Asasi Matrikulasi 1-yr programme. More likely than not, future doctors from private universities are more competent than the public university one. Furthermore, these public university’s student are mostly sponsored by governement and they study almost free of charge. Private universities or medical colleges’ student mostly have to borrow PTPTN loan to finance their medical degree course because it’s so expensive nowadays. The student normally work harder in their studies because they really valued the degree that they achieve out of their own sweat, tear and their own money.
For the time being, those who do not have any plan to work overseas, it is quite safe picking any of the following Malaysian medical schools recognised by MMC and also registered with US Board of International Medical Educational Directory; https://imed.faimer.org/results.asp?country=624&school=&currpage=1&cname=MALAYSIA&city=®ion=AS&rname=Asia&psize=25
You can proceed to specialisation through many ways after your first degree at those medical schools listed. The only worry arise if your degree from overseas is not recognised by MMC, but that can be resolved too by sitting for the MQE exam at one of the 16 public or private universities listed by the government.
NO PROBLAM SAARDAR…IF THEY CANT GET JOB THEY CAN COME AN WORK IN MY PLACE….ONLY THAT IT’S A POULTRY/BUTCHER SHOP!! THEY ONLY HV TO SLAUGHTER, CLEAN AND DRESS THE CHICKENS…THATS ALL.!!
U.S. patented trademark of internationally recognised list for research medical studies only, which does not include measurement on any other courses of study. Printed by international medical study department of education, Singapore (IMSES, post graduate studies):-
https://imed.faimer.org/results.asp?country=624&school=&currpage=1&cname=MALAYSIA&city=®ion=AS&rname=Asia&psize=25
Found in MU library.
hi, I’m a current form5 student who is completing SPM at the end of this year. I am keen in Medicine. So can you please tell me which university / college you recommend the most? 🙂
public universities like UM,UKM and USm are still the best.
For private: PMC, IMU, Monash
hi picky, what medicine u wan?? paNADOL or MINYAK KUDA..maybe u can try Ah Kim kedai ubat and see la. cough mixture also can lo!! i HEARD THEY ARE SELLING CHEAP LA…
Some 20-30 years ago, I fully agree on this three public Universities during my parent’s time but now I’m really doubtful. I’m in the 2nd year medical degree in one of the local private univ. I’ve to tell a true story here. During my Form 1, most my former primary school bumi classmates who are top 30 in UPSR are taken away and isolated to study in Asrama schools or kolej. Then after my PMR, another round of clearance of bumi student, all swapped into Form 4 Asrama Sains schools for bumis only. As I studied in the first class 4Sc1, suddenly all my bumi friends in my class are all gone again. So the left over are those not really competitive. However, now while I’m doing my MBBS in a private univ. with all my parents EPF money, my former leftover Form 5 classmates, which I still have contact with them, are doing MBBS & MD in those 3 public Univ.that you’ve mentioned. As such, I’m quite confused by which form of measurement you’ve used to measure the standard of graduates in these U, whether the quality of their graduates or just the quality of their professors. If you talk about the design of the public U, most of them are very old and their hostel accomodation as told by my friends studying there are quite run down as compared to any of the private U anywhere in M’sia. I’m just disappointed with some of the government’s policy of spoon feeding. According to my father, some of his former classmates who was sent on government scholarship, although with just average MCE results, to US and UK. Now they came back most of them working in private sector and voting for the opposition, not BN, although they were sponsored by the ruling BN government.
What you just said has been written by me before in one of my post ( about BUm students going missing in stages). Yes, I do agree with the mushrooming of private institutions, many non-Bumis decided not to proceed with Form 6. This in turn reduced the number of good students entering public universities. However, whatever you say, the facilities in public universities including having their own teaching hospital is definitely better then any private medical schools. This is beyond doubt. The teaching environment is also better. Thus, if you ask which uni is still the best unis in the country, I will still say these 3 unis. Having a hostel itself is a luxury. Not all universities provide hostel for their students. Even when I was in UM, we were only provided hostel during our clinical years.
Except a very few private medical colleges, most of them do not even deserve to be called a medical college by any international standards.
I’m not against the privilege given by the government for the Bums as it is clearly written in the constitution. I’ve many Bums friends also and we get together well during school holidays and semester break. What I’m disappointed is the government’s policy of segregating the 1M student apart by setting up double standard Asrama Sains school, Matrikulasi colleges and UTM for one race only. Why not only have one stream of education just like during those old days. You can set clearly the quota as it is already stipulated in the Malaysian constitution. You can do it for the New Economic Policy (NEP) for businesses. You can also implement the same for education whatever the quota is. There should be no dispute about it but by setting up so many different standard of secondary and tertiary education in the country, you are confusing the Rakyat. While the majority of one or two races are clearly taking the STPM public exam, the majority of another race is clearly doing another Asasi Matrikulasi public examination.
In the medical field of education, another white elephant to be University Perdana is formed. With a 1.0 million Ringgit tuition fee price tag hanging on, I’m quite sure there are so many other better choices of universities, both locally and overseas, if one can afford this kind of tuition fees. In the end, again, University Perdana could turn into a free medical education and scholarship driven university for a certain privilege group of student only.
In the end, again, University Perdana could turn into a free medical education and scholarship driven university for a certain privilege group of student only.
And not to forget that scholarships such as from JPA are funded out of tax revenue that is paid by the rakyat but awarded disproportionately to that certain privileged group.
Racial demographics is such a large part of Malaysian bureaucracy that you even need to fill in a race designation for a bank account application. The government has racial statistics for just about everything, particularly when there is a need to justify the innumerable master race programmes. Yet the irony is that when the government is asked to provide stats on racial demographics for tax revenue paid, the answer is that they do not keep such data. How terribly convenient.
Even when you fill up the notification form for infectious disease, there is a race column!! I refuse to fill up the column! Does infectious disease pick which race it want to infect?
To be fair, ethnicity is useful for epidemiological purposes in health. Some diseases are more prevalent in certain ethnicities due to a combination of social background and genetic predisposition. Having this knowledge can in some cases help with prevention and treatment – as long as someone in public health uses this information appropriately.
I do agree that there is no need to ask about race/religion in most other aspects of Malaysian life!
I don’t think it makes any difference for infectious disease like Dengue etc. It can infect anyone. What is more important is the environmental factors and not race.
Dr, you are right that most infectious diseases are more of environmental factors, and I would say life style is another important factor too.
The governement policy is to devide and rule! The longer they keep us decided, the longer they can remain in power! They always blame the vernacular schools but conveniently forget about Mara colleges, matriculation, boarding schools and agama schools! Well, I have talked about this before in my earlier posts.
Perdana University is a big scam, as far as I am concerned. The government paying through the backdoor to support a crony. Do you know that the scholarship they are offering is a special scholarship which is directly under the PM’s department? I mean, why pay RM1 million for a degree which is of no value at all internationally?
I am from Kedah and already in my 50’s. I was in the last batch of student who took Science and Maths in English. I don’t see any difficulty and there’s no issue of objection from any race taking the subjects in English those days. Somehow, Dr. Mahathir try to change these subjects into Malay to see whether the performance gap of exam. results between races can be narrowed. I think he knew it didn’t work out as what he had initially planned and he converted the Science and Maths subject back to English. Now the current government said that most teachers especially those from the era of studying Science and Maths in Malay are now not competent enough to teach these subjects in English, so they decided to change it back into Malay language.
My opinion is that, most science medical terms originate from English and whether we like it or not, it is actually an English subject itself. If we were to translate the Science’s term back into Malay language, then it is just like studying English in Malay language.
I hope this Ding Dong thing is not politically motivated, if not, there will be no ending to the detriment of the Rakyat from one generation to another.
Everything is politics in Malaysia.
Some of the oldest medical universities in the former communist country like Russia and China are now using 100% English as the medium of teaching, and they have opened up their intake to foreign students. You can see lots of international students in medical universities like Russia and China. Somehow, Malaysia are beginning to do the reverse in education.
dr pagal, about this LAN accreditation, i heard whispers from reliable sources some college go all out to bribe their officials, to renew/yearly approval of the courses. i hope it is not true, otherwise,…… god saves malaysia.
I am not sure about bribery BUt I do know that most of the time they just do desk audit! They just flip through the documents given by the college. They rarely do any spot inspections or field assessment. They just assume that everything that is written is being implemented!! So, you can say that you have 50 lecturers where 80% will be part timers, you will still get the approval!!
Lucky me..!! I’m just a shepard/cow herd, looking after my loving animals!!..despite scoring 10 straight A1’s..!!!!I will retire to the jungles…for abetter quality life..let my intelligence be with me itself…!!!I can put it to better use like making my farm successful..instead of worrying about this and that!!!thank god I did not persue MBBS..!!!
Hi Doctor:
Thank you for you effort and time for such an insightful website. I’ve learnt a lot from here.
The country should need more people like you. You should start a political party and embrace whatever difficulties that may be coming your way, seriously, given your righteousness and the humbleness as a doctor. And this is no sarcasm. I reckon you can run the country better than most.
Honestly I feel quite disappointed with some of the comments defending AIMST UNI. As doctors if you really wanna defend your UNI, no point arguing here. Just take in comments that are perhaps deemed as criticisms and strive to becoming a caring and loving doctor with utmost humility.
Doctors should’t be arrogant. I sense some display of arrogance via your verbal defense for you UNI. Learn from your VP of AIMST UNI. Again not being sarcastic but rather in truth and love.
Simply put. So what if you’re smart? So what if you’re a doctor? So what if you’re the leaders? Don’t let egoism take control. You do not need to demonstrate a strong debating skill to prove your worth guys.
I’m just a student currently studying A’s in Singapore JC. And I’m also a malaysian, under ASEAN scholarship. It’s saddening how countries just between few kms have so different standards of living. I feel for the Malaysians. I feel for my friends and families here for the lack of many kinds of opportunities.
Meritocracy and transparency are the elements that thrived in Singapore, lacked in Malaysia. I am clueless about how to change the Malaysia politics. But I believe what doctors can do to ameliorate in whatever ways is to treat patients with care and love. Love your patients even if they hate you, cos you treasure life. Make good use of your hands. Save lives. Just imagine if you were to lose your loved ones to cancer or other sickness. How sad it is. Treat your patients like your brothers and sisters, relatives and friends. Ultimately, if we do not take care of our same kind (Malaysians), who will?
I would appreciate if any readers could spare some time reading this. I was diagnosed with a colon tumour when I was just 13. I was freaking scared. My mum told me I was going to be OK, but it just couldn’t convince my fear. While in the operating theater before the surgery, I was freezing cold and scared. Is like the most fearful times of my life. Then the doctor whom I have seen earlier came. He was wearing a mask and I could still recognize him because at that time there were all females and two guys, one Chinese and one Malay. And he was a Malay so via skin colour I recognized him. He grabbed my hands and said everything is going to be OK. His hands were super warm and that was what I think I needed. And there came a stream of peace, though I was still freaking scared. Whenever I came to think of that, I find it so special and miraculous. I rather trust a stranger than my mum. And this is only made possible for doctors.
At the end of the day, is not how much money or your social status that determines your success. It boils down to the values you hold since childhood. This seemed very vague and irrelevant to me, until recently I realise the importance of righteousness. And I think the greatest virtue one should embrace as a doctor is HUMILIATION.
Doctors are meant to save. To discuss but not debate. Leave this to the politicians. And most importantly, to be rational in everything you do. You wouldn’t know how much you can change the lives of people with your hands and contribute to the society. Just like how one had changed my life, molding another part of “Me”.
So strive to becoming a good doctor. Do not treat lives so cheaply even when death sometimes becomes inevitable.
Dearest Doc Pag:
I wish you good health and spirit to save more people and really, I’m thankful for your insightful and unselfish sharing. God bless =D
Dear Expressing gratitude,
Your observations on how to be a caring doctor (and a caring person) is very level-headed and sharing your own personal medical trauma is inspiring.
I will however, disagree with one sentence: “Meritocracy and transparency are the elements that thrived in Singapore, lacked in Malaysia.”
I agree that those 2 elements are severely lacking in Malaysia, to the point where it’s created a culture of hand-outs and corruption. Singapore however is not all it makes itself out to be.
The meritocracy in Singapore is fake. If you are of Chinese descent, you will not notice the discrimination faced by the Malays and Indians in Singapore. They can’t do it openly like Malaysia of course, so they use tactics like stating ‘Mandarin speaker required’ for jobs where you don’t even need to know Mandarin. While it is of course advantageous to know Mandarin, Singaporean Malays and Indians HAVE TO take Malay and Tamil as their 2nd language – i.e. the govt stops them learning Mandarin unless they take extra classes in their own time.
The discrimination of the Malays in NS and army is well-documented, and anyone can google this. My own friend was told to his face that he would not be posted to the army because he was a Muslim, so he had to serve in the auxillary police for his NS. And he was a 4th generation Singpoarean.
The push for a ‘exam results are everything’ society has created a very sterile and uncreative environment. The lack of critical thinking created by a repressive environment makes things even worse. Students schooled in the Singaporean system are unable to think outside the box – if you ever go to the UK/Aus/NZ to study, you can see how they are good at memorising facts but struggle with the application of knowledge and critical examination. I admit that this is true for most Asian societies but Singapore takes it to the extreme.
There is transparency in most levels of Singapore society except right at the very top. Singapore is essentially a one-party state. Some even call it a one-family state. The lack is democracy and media freedom is even worse than Malaysia. The gerry-mandering of electoral seats and giving citizenship to PRCs (much like Malaysia has given it to Indons) will ensure they stay in power for another generation.
You cannot have a transparent society if you do not have press freedom. Singapore ranks 150 out of 192 in the Freedom House ranking and 135 out of 179 in the Reporters without Borders ranking for press freedom. I should add that Malaysia is only marginally better, probably because the online press is given much more leeway compared to Singapore.
The judiciary in Singapore is also much more under the thumb of the ruling party, compared to Malaysia. Anyone who dares go against the PAP and its cronies are dealt with severely. The unfortunate cases of Francis Seow (ex-President of the Singapore Law Society who was tortured while in prison for trumped up charges) and Chia Thye Poh (imprisoned for 23 years, then places in house arrest for another 9 years – without ever being charged or put on trial!) spring to mind.
There is a sobering story written in the Far Eastern Economic Review, a magazine which Singapore regularly sues and bans because they won’t toe the line: http://www.singapore-window.org/sw06/0610FEE3.HTM
While I applaud you and wish you success in your studies, always have a critical mind. All is not as it seems in the Lion City. Local Singaporean discontent is simmering against government policies and a lot of this is taken out on foreigners (mostly PRCs, but increasingly Malaysians too). You hardly hear of it because the media is controlled. Did you know that Singapore goes to Chinese high schools and offers scholarships to PRC students on the spot? All in an effort to preserve the racial balance (i.e. ensure a Chinese majority which was slowly eroding due to the low birth rate). Spare a thought for the Singaporean who has been slogging their whole childhood, has to serve NS for 2 years and then gets discriminated against in their own country.
Hi, Nav, have u heard of this ‘slogan’ in Singapore – NS for Singaporean, jobs for foreigners.
Thanks for the ling comment. I wish you good luck
Does IMU local degree have good clinical lecturers? I read your blog and realized that it is the most important part of medical education. I am a straight A A-Level student but I cannot afford to do IMU-twinning. The situation in Malaysia is making me worried. I am thinking of studying something else but I believe I have a genuine passion for this field. (better than many others I hope)
Generally yes but their degree is not recognised elsewhere.
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Quite an interesting article but just curious why he shows ‘half face’? Trend?
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
My son would like to take up medicine. Currently, he is doing his A-level and will be sitting for his exam in June this year and his result will be known two months later. Being his father and with limited budget for his study, I am torn between IMU and Manipal. I have heard IMU’s failure rate is pretty high. I welcome your advice. Thank you.
He should read this blog before deciding. Generally IMU is better. Why worry about failure rate if your son is capable.
If failure rate is a worry, maybe he is not suitable potential doctor material? In good medical schools, no student entering is going to worry about failures, they are all aiming for the best med school they can get in. IMU has a high failure rate in Sem 2 because they take in a broad spectrum of students (some people call it ‘giving all a chance’), and weed out the less able ones along the way.
Only in Malaysia students choose med schools based on their chance of failing (or not). The implication is obvious, surely?
Just like what Dr. P said, being a medical student, the fear of failure should be out of the question. I’m in the clinical year now at IMU and so far I’ve not heard of anyone who’ve failed in their exam. Some drop out for some other reason but almost all at IMU completed their degree either locally or abroad. The only thing Alex should have feared most is your financial budget for the whole course. Many who studied here were caught off guard by those hidden costs like lab and facilities fees beside the rising cost of living in KL. There is no PTPTN loan here as well.
when i was an IMU student (~10 yrs ago) – there were quite a few who failed sem 3, they had to drop out or repeat the semester.
yesterday, my professor told me that his son is writing the high school exit exam with the aim of getting a spot in the australian medical school and that his son will need to score 99.6% and above to get it.
There is indeed a ‘high’ failure rate at EOS2 and 3. This rate varies, but usually between 15 to 25%. The students will resit the exam, and some will clear it the second time. Some will fail again, and either have to repeat the semester, or have to leave the programme.
However, past EOS3, few people will fail anymore, and in Phase 2 local programme, hardly anyone is failed. As for those who match elsewhere in the PMS programme, there are failures, eg, for this year’s finals in one of the Midlands UK med schools, one out of 6 IMU students failed.
actually all the med school in malaysia are equally ‘not good’ nowadaysno matter you are from government or private university.gov university like um,ukm,usm also ady start to produce sub standard doctors recently as most of their students nowsaday are from matriculations,not like last time mostly from stpm students.hence,those from private med schools no need to feel inferior as there are some good students also especially some of my friend from jpa.
Whats wrong with matrix or stpm students lol?if they are not good in medical school regardless of stpm or nt, they would not pass. Nonetheless, Private is still not as good as gov.
I disagree. UM, UKM, USM and probably UIA are better than most, if not all, the private med schools in Malaysia. On the next level, I would place UPM and UiTM on par with the best private med schools but as for the rest, I have no real confidence in their teaching practice. Many have poorly qualified and inexperienced staff who don’t necessarily have a good standard of practice in medical education.
many who ady out of malaysia education system may not know that recent years there are quite a lot of chinese and indian able to get matrix and their selection criteria mainly base on how low u write your family income,how kampung u write ur address and cocuriculum activities.all the detail can be falsify when u fill in the detail.there is a saying that when u get matrix is equivalent to get the course u want because it is easy to score cgpa 4 in matrix unlike stpm.and our gov university give preference to those from matrix,some of my friend who did quite badly in spm also can get into um,ukm or usm medicine bcos it is easy to score 4 in matrix.and i heard a lot of story stpm students who score cgpa4 also not able to get medicine in gov u.that is our system.i m not saying all from matrix are not good,there are quite some brilliant students also,but just to point out unfairness of our education system that lead to standard of medicine in university like um,ukm usm drop drastically in recent years.unlike last time who able to get medicine in gov uni was consider brilliant,now my only impression for those who graduate from gov med school in recent years is’r u from matrix?’no offend,this our system.but undeniably our private med school standard quite low,but there r stil some good students in someprivate med school bcoz jpa also sent some students there,thats why i said med school in malaysia equally ‘not good’.sorry if i offend anyone.cheers
10% of matriculation places are reserved for non-bumis since 2001.
Yes, the standards are dropping everywhere but the teaching facilities are still better in public universities with teaching hospitals.
I don’t disagree with you med student. There are good and not-so-students in both. I was referring to the standard of teaching, based mainly on the quality and training of the faculty.
Haven’t you noticed that the passing rate in all our medical schools are almost 100%!!
It is not the students but the teaching quality. The government universities with their own teaching hospitals are still better than any private universities.
ya,i agree with dr paga,it make a big different when the uni has its own teaching hospital.and everyone who step into med schools will end up as a doctor for sure,just a matter of 5 years or longer.our private uni seem like doesnt want to restrict the numbers of their students although they know there is already surplus of doctors.
Money mah
or be in the 99.6 percentile…something like that.
He is referring to the ATAR rank, previously known as TER/ENTER/UAI in different states. It is a percentile ranking amongst students in a state. A rank of 99.6 means you are better than 99.6% of the other students in Year 12 in your state, but worse than the top 0.4%. Generally, Australian Med Schools prohibit anyone with less then ATAR95 from applying, and in practice, only consider those actually much higher than 95. Eg, Monash Clayton cut off is about 99.4. However the selection process occur long before the final result is out, so much weightage is placed on the UMAT or ISAT test results.
This is a cohort percentile ranking, ie a relative ranking, and does NOT measure content of knowledge, so if we extrapolate into A-levels results, assuming the cohort sitting for the Australian year 12 is equivalent to that sitting for A levels, 3A correspond to ATAR82 and above, 3A* to 96.
This is another matter, but it is pertinent to note that while the Monash Clayton programme remains very strict in selection, their ‘similar’ Sunway programme is taking people with low ATAR90’s and ignoring the ISAT results. The realities of Malaysian private education also means NUMED has now dropped the UKCAT testing from their requirements.
Yup, they need the money
If this is the Australian high school, that would be correct, meaning he will have been to be in the top 0.4% among his cohort.
*have to be
hey Dr.pagalavan,
I know medical faculty in aimst is not that good but do u know about aimst dental faculty? is it good? i visited it’s dental hospital last month and i’m impressed with their facilities, unlike segi dental faculty(visited during interview), not that fully equipped…and it is already recognised by mdc, do u think i can consider this uni for its dentistry course?
I think AIMST is better
[…] of new medical schools and application for increase of intake will be frozen. But yet again, we did hear this 2 years ago (May 2011) but nothing happened. Politics and money takes priority, I […]
[…] Fortunately, as I predicted the problem has now surfaced publicly. In 2011, after much denial, the government issued a moratorium for new medical schools. At the same time, MMC came up with the Minimum Entry Criteria. While I […]
I find it rather amusing as there were much heated arguments in this blog disputing the quality of medical schools or graduates, particularly Aimst University. This is what I found out in the web that could be of interest.
The comparison among doctors (HOs) using statistical odds ratios of inadequacy in terms of academic knowledge and basic skills (abbreviated as ORK, ORS) among doctors were done by Amir S Khan of PMC, but the date and sample size were not stated in the slide presentation. I have extracted the information from Amir’s charts for this comparison (ref: Amir S Khan, The employability of doctors: does Malaysia have sufficient qualified doctors, PMC, slide presentation, published online).
The findings showed that UKM, USM, UPM, ITM, UIA, IMU, and PMC (ORK 0.8 to 0.9), (ORS 0.6 to 0.9) were relatively better than the controlled group. The controlled group was not disclosed, but I figured out it could be UM. The other established university Unimas, UMS, Aimst U, MMC, UK and Ireland were nearly as good (ORK 1.1 to 1.2), (ORS 1.1 to 1.3). The gaps of both the OR values for within and without the universities were narrow, indicating the variation in qualities measured was small.
Graduates from the other medical schools in Malaysia, China, Taiwan and Japan were found lagging behind with the average ORK 1.5 to 1.7 and ORS 1.5 to 1.7. The gaps of odds ratios were found to be wider, the average ORK gaps 9.4 to 18 and the average ORS gaps 5 to 7.5. This showed that graduate qualities were highly variable within and among the universities concerned.
More shocking were the poor qualities of graduates from foreign countries: Indonesia (average ORK 2.8, aver ORS 2.8), Russia-Ukraine (aver ODK 2.6, aver ODS 2.5), and India-Pakistan-Arab (aver ODK 5.8, ODS 5.9). The qualities of graduates from these countries also varied greatly within and without the country (aver ODK gaps 15 to18) and (aver ODS gaps 4.4 to 9.2).
So, based on the findings it can be said that graduates of Aimst U are as good as the other established medical schools in the country as well graduates from UK and Ireland. Of course, assuming the findings were done without prejudice and properly conducted.
However, without the data on sample size and raw data, it is not possible to calculate the confidence interval for determining the extent of the findings on the performance of actual population of House Officers. Also the Pv probality value would be necessary to confirm whether the differences in odds ratios are of statistical significance. At this juncture I must say I have no interest with any of the university and hold no prejudice against any.
The other issue of contention was the quality of academicians. Often the number of publication has been taken as a measure of the performance of university academicians. The Scopus database showed that all the public universities (except Uniza, per 2011) produced journal articles, but the actual number of medical articles were unknown for meaningful comparison purpose. Scopus is a database of citations for academic journal articles. While the private medical schools that produce articles in Scopus journals (numbers of articles) are: Aimst (202), MSU (25), IMU (473), UCSI (72), no other medical schools has produced Scopus articles per 2010 (ref: Ina Suryani et. al., Research Publication Output by Academicians in Public and Private Universities in Malaysia, Internl Journal of Higher Education, Vol2, No:1, 2013). It would be more appropriate to find out the actual per capita journal output for comparison rather than in comparing the total output.
Another good indicator of a university is the MQA rating, in particular the D-Setara. Although some argue that it is worthless, but I think otherwise. What MQA does is to assess the process of education in the institutions including adequacy of facilities and academicians. To assess the quality of end products (graduates) is a different matter, it is best done by MMC and MOH. It is true that much of the MQA evaluation is based on auditing of document, which is not unlike other quality standards assessments as in ISO, HACCP, GMP, etc. The D-setara results are: only UM in Tier 5, Tier 4- Aimst U, CUCMS, IMU, Monash Sunway, UKM, UMS, Unimas, UPM, USM, UiTM, and Tier 3- USIM, UCSI.
To sum it all, both the graduates and academician of Aimst University are of good standings, comparable with the other established public and private medical schools in the country. Aimst U is better than the other (newly formed) med schools in terms of odds ratios of graduates in academic knowledge and basic skills, as well as publication of Scopus journal articles by the academicians. Aimst U is in the Tier 4 of the D-setara, the same tier as all the established public and private medical schools (except UM) and a tier above USIM and UCSI.
confucious said, ” perception is far more important than the truth”.
so not many people actually bother with your argument.
Paga, I admire your tenacity, but lets have some hard facts that the quality has indeed deteriorated. Doctors are trained to practise evidence based medicine. Let guts feelings and opinions be formed around the evidence gathered. That would be a fruitful way to argue and a forward looking approach. Else whatever transpired is just a noisy release of hot air. GPs nowadays have been accused of practising emotional-populist medicine, prescribing to please their patients. Let’s fall back to the fundamental of evidence base medicine/discussion. If there is a lack of evidence to substantiate any claim or assertion, then let’s find out by conducting factual investigations through MMA, MMC, MOH and the university concerned. This would provide invaluable feedback to the system.
MOH do have a data which they did 2 years ago but not sure whether they are still continuing it. However, the outcome of such studies depends on the supervising consultant. Unless we conduct a common entry or exit exams, there is no way we can objectively conclude anything. That’s why I totally support a common entry exam or at least a common exit exam after housemanship.
You said, ‘ When AIMST first started, they did produce good students. Many JPA students were also sent there.’
In fact, JPA has been continuously sending many top students to AIMST University, till now. The following is the extract from the web page of MOE.
Pelajar lepasan Bursary akan ditawarkan penajaan peringkat ijazah Pertama di dalam atau luar negara mulai tahun 2014 di bawah anjuran JPA
Program Ijazah Dalam Negara (PIDN)
Penajaan oleh JPA kepada 10,300 orang pelajar lepasan mana-mana program persediaan untuk mengikuti pengajian peringkat Ijazah Pertama dalam program yang telah diiktiraf di Institusi Pengajian Awam (IPTA) dan Swasta (IPTS) tempatan…..
…..
IPTS-IPTS lain seperti AIMST University, UniKL-Royal College of Medicine Perak, University College Sedaya International, Cyberjaya University College of Medical Sciences, International Medical Universitydan Universiti Perdana;….
I never said that JPA is not sending any students to AIMST! But most of their intake now are from their own foundation studies.Thus, most of the JPA students enter their foundation studies first before going on to do medicine. When they first started, JPA students enter via A level or STPM.
Well said , but nowadays which private u is not doing the same, taking in students with foundation qualification. Many students who failed in foundation there repeat it in other u, some are rejects from AIMST U. However, those students who made it into any u are as ‘qualified’, in the ways as set by the government.
yes, that’s what happens when you commercialised medical education or even education in general!
To conclude my argument I say, arguably, medical schools in Malaysia at their best are of mediocre in quality without a need to single out any of them for criticism, nor marking out any school for special praise.
In the recent published editorial book by K.H. Mok and K.M.Yu, Internationalization of Higher Education in East Asia, Routledge, USA, 2014, it mentioned that students preferred IMU because it is easier to get into than other universities and it offers opportunity abroad (entering decent universities), though the tuition fee is comparatively more expensive. Some of the complaints raised on IMU primarily centred on the quality of lecturers and insufficient campus facilities. One even quoted to sarcastically describe IMU as a big factory and money minded that the management was dictatorial. It also stated that some 80% of the lecturers were foreigners mainly from India, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and Vietnam.
Sounds familiar and very similar to other private medical schools in Malaysia including AIMST U, is it not?
Please note that any university that I mentioned is only for explanation with no intention to infringe whatsoever. Okey, I rest my case. Please forgive me for whatever reason to have hurt anyone.
There is no argument here. I agree that most medical schools in Malaysia, especially private ones are mediocre. Unfortunately, IMU use to be the better one when they first started. Due to stiff competition from other medical schools, they too have to lower their standards to sustain.
IMU still don’t have its own building yet. The campus in Bukit Jalil and the shoplots in Kluang use to run their classes are still rented. At least student graduated from Newcastle Univ Malaysia are eligible for provisional registration with GMC (UK). Although private universities are mediocre but they are proven to be more preferable than graduates from public universities, especially in the non-medic field like accountancy, engineering and IT industries. As for medic, they have no choice because mostly they couldn’t afford the rising fees in private universities. Nowadays, the trend is that parent prefer to pay for their children to pursue private universities’ education even though they are offered places in public universities. Unlike in the 80’s and 90’s where private education’s student are mostly rejected from getting a place in public university, the trend now are the other way round. The government are now branding the sixth former every year from their uniform design to campus style class room just to entice more ‘quality’ student to accept public tertiary education. Very soon, I think study of Maths and Science in Malay now will become an issue again. Local public universities will continue to become less competitive in the employment market as the medium of instruction and higher education books are all in BM.
Eligible for provisional registration with GMC does not mean anything if you can’t get internship job in UK. Based on current immigration laws, chances of getting an internship in UK is almost NIL. Thus, you will never be fully registrable with GMC. GMC has said this many times in their report on NuMed. NuMed’s building is also on lease from Khazanah for 30 years. Furthermore, their teaching hospital(HSI)is almost 25-30km away from main campus. They are also using Batu Pahat and Kluang Hospital with no campus over there. They are renting apartments for the students to stay.
That’s why I had always said that medical education should never be commercialised.
response to WahLauEh
It is an over-statement to say that industry prefers graduates from private universities over public universities especially in the non-medical fields such as accountancy and so on. Generally graduates from private universities are more pragmatic in getting jobs to earn a living, as many don’t mind under-employed (under-paid).
To set things in perspective, accountancy should be differentiated from its related fields such as accounting, finance, commerce and business programmes. Accountant (engineer as well) is a legally defined profession, which falls under the Accountants Act. Only those degrees listed in the Act i.e. B. Accountancy are admitted (differentiate it from B Comm (Acc) or B Bus (Acc) etc), they include all the accountancy degrees from the public universities plus Uniten, MMU, Unisel and Utar. Other related degrees recognised by JPA and MIA but are not listed must pass the Qualifying Exam (4 papers cost over RM7000). An accountancy seat in a public university is highly competitive. It is too naïve to say one would give up an offer to opt for a lesser alternative in a private university, as it would entail more hardship and money to qualify as an accountant, unless the student is ignorant, as many are.
I know of cases where students turn down offers in public universities and choose to pay through their noses in private universities believing what education promoters said/promise them. Those ignorant lots are now struggling to pass the QE (3rd attempt now), while their mates graduated from public Us are about to be admitted as C.A.(M) (awaiting completion of experience requirements).
Sorry Dr P for using your medic blog here just to put things right in response to ‘Normal” on accountancy. As for medicine, other than the ‘Big Four’ public universities i.e. UM, USM, UKM & UPM, all the other public univ have nothing much to shout about. As for accountancy, other than the Big Two” i.e. UM & USM, the rest are only good to be absorbed into public services or government related corporation. All the so called Chartered Accountant i.e. CA (M) from graduates of public universities are all guaranteed awarded once they graduate from any local public universities with 3 years work experience by registering with the MIA.. Just like in medic, all this public univ graduates are good if they work in Malaysia only. Nowadays, even multinational corporation in Malaysia prefer private univ graduates as most of them award double degrees by twinning with UK and Australian universities. All their graduates normally will progress via paper exemption just to take their final 4 papers to earn them a professional qualification from ACCA (UK) and CPA (Australia) which are miles ahead of public univ graduates in terms of recognition, both locally and international job market. Except for sporadic low percentage of UM and USM graduates further pursue the ACCA and CPA professional qualification, the rest are hampered from taking the professional courses which are conducted 100% in English (not the SPM type of communication English). That’s why, less than 5% of the local graduates working in the public sector are professional accountant. The rest are Jaguh Kampung.
haha wahlaueh, I was at one time with an MNC and in contacts with many accountants. That’s exactly the point, degrees from a public U + 3 yrs experience will send you straight to CA(M). While others including twining need to pass either QE or Prof body papers (max 5 pro-level papers depending on which U grads) to qualify for MIA membership. Jaguh Kampung or not, they (CA) are making head ways sooner than twinners or unlisted private U grads. Public U grads too can take a prof-body exam, nothing to hold them back, if they wish (for overseas prospects). why dabble with unlisted private degrees, yet needs to spend more money, time and efforts to qualify for MIA membership, while there is a direct route via the list of institutions in the Acct Act. Similarly, why do medicine in Cuba or Thailand and on return needs to study hard in trying to pass MQE to register with MMC. If overseas job is the objective, then do it in the country that one has in mind to migrate to or take a prof-body exam after B Accountancy. It is debatable (if not laughable) to say USM a big one in accountancy, I will not waste time on the matter in this blog, which is suppose to be for med discourse, if not because of you who brought up the matter in the first instance. This is the end of my input on accountancy.
in the QS university ranking by subject medicine for 2015/16, only um, ukm, usm and upm made it into the list. what’s your say
Nothing new. I had always said that public universities are still better interms of facility and number of staffs
Malaysian universities have once again failed to make the cut in the latest Times Higher Education (THE) World Reputation Rankings 2015, with too few scholars citing the country’s tertiary institutions as being among the best in the world http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/yet-again-malaysian-varsities-not-among-worlds-top#sthash.7soYpDd9.dpuf
While Times put more emphasis on research, QS rankings put student experience at the absolute top, emphasizing the importance of a diverse and international student body, student faculty ratio, and a good reputation from big employers (this is a very subjective and arbitrary one).
It’s interesting to note that foreign branch universities like Monash Malaysia does not apply to be assessed individually, but use the ranking of Monash University (7 campuses) as a whole. What is your view on this?
I also heard that Monash Msia has a lower entry requirement compared to its Australian counterpart. But since they are assessed with the same paper, with same passing mark, will there be a significant discrepancy in term of the quality of doctors produced by these two campuses?
Ranking only apples to the parent campus and cannot apply to branches…especially branches in other countries.
Monash Msia selection criteria is completely different from that of the 2 parent campuses in Clayton and Gippsland (graduate entry). Although they still insist applicants sit for the ISAT, they so not take it into consideration at all, and people who score results in the 20% are also taken in, The entry criteria is way below the ATAR 99+ demanded in Clayton, down to the low 90s. I don’t know if they have gone below 90, as they now have a larger licensed intake.
The reason is simple. In the Malaysia context of private medical education, selection is based on who can afford the fees, NOT who is the best candidate. Monash Malaysia is no different, and economic reality means they will need to fill all their licensed places. If they stick to Clayton’s criteria, they will hardly get 10 students. So they lower their cut off till they can fill all the places.
Some private med schools will still not be able to fill their places even if they hit the bottom of the MMC minimum qualification guideline. They then “appeal” to MMC. If you know what the MMC minimum is, you will be frighten and worried about the quality of students entering Malaysian med schools.