I wrote about the Australian Internship Crisis in 2012 over HERE and HERE. While in Malaysia, PMC students are considering going to Ireland for Internship, the Australian government has introduced some measures to reduce the Internship crisis. I must warn PMC students that many doctors are leaving Ireland due to poor pay and poor working condition, including long working hours. That’s the reason why Irish Medical Council has recognised Malaysian housemanship training. They need more doctors to replace those who are leaving to UK, Australia and New Zealand. You can read over HERE and HERE.
IN 2012 , I wrote that Australia is facing internship crisis and it should worsen further. I also wrote several times on local graduates who passed AMC exams but never manage to get internship post. Many had to come back to Malaysia to do housemanship. They skipped housemanship in Malaysia, being confident that they will be guaranteed a job in Australia if they pass AMC exams. I had always said that passing entrance exams do not guarantee you a job anywhere.
One of my blog reader sent me some interesting information on what is happening in Australia. For those who have time, you can read THIS interesting document by Medical Training Review Panel which is almost close to 300 pages long. It has many interesting facts. If you look at page 52 and 53, you will realise that only 10 Monash Malaysia graduates were given internship post for 2014 (look under the table). You will also notice that only 6 graduates of AMC exams were given internship post. Page 11 is also interesting to read. At page 18, you will realise that there are 18 accredited medical schools in Australia. 60% of them(comprising 60% of students) are graduate entry program (interesting info from page 18-31). Page 42 to 49 also has some interesting information regarding the number of international student graduates.
At page 51 , you will realise that they have started a program known as Commonwealth Medical Internship (CMI) initiative. For those international students graduating from Australian onshore medical schools who did not manage to get the usual internship in public service hospitals, you are eligible to apply for CMI. The CMI document is over HERE. In 2014, out of 497 international medical graduates, 277 manage to get internship and another 76 were given under the CMI program. So, either 144 remaining students did not apply or did not get internship program in either pathway. Most students who go to Australia do not come back unless they are sponsored by their government and required to come back.
The CMI initiative places graduates in private hospitals, general practise and rural health care centres coordinated by private hospitals. Definitely, this is not an ideal setting for internship training. At page 16, you will realise that Monash Malaysia and IMU twinning program graduates are NOT eligible for CMI program! This CMI program also comes with a bond. You are required to serve rural area for atleast 48 weeks as a return of service obligation ( see page 19). There is a penalty if you breach the contract.
I thank Nav for giving me the link to this documents. Basically what I am trying to say is that the situation in other countries are also tight when it comes to internship placement. You need to think wisely before investing close to RM 1 million if you intend to send your child to Australia to do medicine and planning to migrate. Never do medicine if you intend to migrate!
Medical school graduates set for training in Ireland
Published: 24 June 2015 11:50 AM
Penang Medical College (PMC) graduates from the class of 2015 may apply for internship in Ireland.
PMC is the only medical school outside the EU whose graduates have this privilege.
This internship is recognised by the Malaysian Medical Council (MMC) and the medical councils of many other countries.
Penang Medical College is wholly owned by the world-renowned Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI) and University College Dublin (UCD).
All 97 graduates received their sought medical degrees: MB BCh BAO (Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery and Bachelor of Obstetrics) from the National University of Ireland (NUI), the RCSI or UCD, officially becoming doctors with globally recognised qualifications.
Malaysian graduates are also guaranteed houseman positions in Malaysia, recognised by the Irish Medical Council (IMC).
“Over the years, PMC has been contributing to healthcare worldwide, and in Malaysia in particular, through its globally-recognised doctors graduating from Penang, or the RCSI and UCD campuses in Dublin,” said PMC President, ceo and Dean, Professor Amir Khir.
“As PMC moves forward to position itself to play a larger role as a leading medical degree education provider in the region and beyond, PMC graduates are the future doctors of the world with an international network of healthcare professionals as a resource.”
The graduate doctors also received licentiates from the RCSI and the Royal College Physicians in Ireland (RCPI).
PMC students spend their first two-and-a-half years in either RCSI or UCD medical schools, where they undergo intensive pre-clinical training.
They are also taught by experienced scientists and leading medical doctors in their respective fields.
PMC students then return to Penang for clinical training for two-and-a-half years at PMC. – June 24, 2015.
Nine in 10 medical students may leave Ireland on qualifying
Culture of ‘intention to migrate’ across all six of State’s medical training schools
Nine out of 10 medical students plan to leave or are “contemplating” leaving Ireland when they qualify, a new study involving the State’s six training schools has found.
Career opportunities, working conditions and lifestyle are cited as the top three factors for migration by some 88 per cent of over 2,000 students surveyed.
The study led by NUI Galway (NUIG) and published on Thursday has found pay was not a key issue among the respondents.
The HSE says the individual health identifer is not related to a person’s eligibility for care and it is not necessary for the patient to have or know the details of the number to access health or social care.New health identification number for every individual
The HSE has estimated the cost of solving the country’s overcrowding crisis to be in the range of €100m. Photograph: Getty Images.HSE needs ‘more than €100m’ to tackle trolley crisis
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Minister for Health Leo Varadkar: More money would also have to be made available for home care packages. Photograph: Gareth Chaney/CollinsCall to end budget cap on Fair Deal care home scheme
Generation Emigration: Irish Times site for Irish abroad
The Irish Hospital Consultants’ Association had said highly trained doctors are being “driven out”.
The study’s supervisor, NUIG senior lecturer in social and preventive medicine Dr Diarmuid O’Donovan, has called for action to retain medical graduates and attract back those who have already emigrated.
Staff at HSE West’s public health department and at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, University of Limerick, University College Cork, University College Dublin and Trinity College Dublin were involved with NUIG in the study, published in the open access journal Human Resources for Health.
Work and lifestyle
Some 1,519 of the 2,000-plus medical students surveyed were Irish, and some 85 per cent of the total identified career opportunities as a determining factor in going abroad. Some 83 per cent identified working conditions, and 80 per cent identified lifestyle as factors.
Some 34.3 per cent said they were “definitely” planning to migrate, and a further 53.3 per cent said they were contemplating it – a total of almost 88 per cent.
Final-year NUIG medical student Pishoy Gouda, the principal investigator, said previous studies on this theme had focused on graduates, whereas this analysis involved junior, intermediate and senior students in the six medical schools.
“We found the outcome alarming, as it shows that even pre-med and first-year students are thinking about leaving already,” he said. It reflected a “widespread culture of intention to migrate” in the medical schools.
Career stages
While medical graduates traditionally sought experience abroad, the research indicated there were several opportunities during different career stages to leave.
“This outflow of qualified personnel may represent a financial loss to the Irish healthcare system,” he noted.
Almost two-thirds said they did not have a great understanding of the training following graduation, and one-third surveyed also indicated they had a poor understanding of how the Irish healthcare system worked.
Mr Gouda said postgraduate opportunities should also be made more accessible to non-EU students trained in Ireland. European working laws make it difficult for non-EU graduates of Irish medical schools to obtain Irish intern or pre-registration/ foundation-year positions.
Dr O’Donovan said the outflow of human capital meant Ireland was having to make enormous efforts to attract medical staff from other countries, including developing nations.
“ Not only is this a problem for Irish recruitment, but we need to be mindful of World Health Organisation guidelines on international recruitment and taking skilled personnel away from countries that have medical staff shortages,” Dr O’Donovan noted.
Pagalavan's Avatar 
Full time Irish trained medical students cant even get an intern job, let alone the PMC students!
as i said before, this is a GLOBAL phenomenon.
it is happening in uk, ireland, australia, india, everywhere.
Paga is putting his foot in his own mouth.
No, it’s not. If you notice these countries have no problem giving internship to all their citizens who graduated in their country. The issue is with the foreign students studying there. In Bolehland, we do not even provide housemanship for foreigners and despite that we are struggling to place our own graduates! That’s the difference!
you mean india is able to provide internship for all their citizens who graduated in india???? austalia is not facing any problem??? UK is doing very well????
Yes, they can! India even gives internship for foreigners. Australia and UK can provide internship for all their citizen who graduates. Even their PRs.
Both UK and Australia has NO problem with accommodating their own residents (ie citizens and PRs) in FY/Internship at the moment. The problem has always been the International students, and in UK’s case, EU graduates as well. Technically, International students are expected to return to their country of origin, and has NO automatic right to stay back and work. Hence, they are not factored in the planning for FY/Internship. But in practice, many want to stay back, and UK and Oz are trying to accommodate them.
MALAYSIA is able to provide internship for all local graduates.
MALAYSIA is not supposed to provide internship for overseas graduates.
Those who study medicine overseas should do their internship there as well.
AUSTRALIA and other countries are not able to provide internship for their international students.
They created this mess, and they aspect MALAYSIA to clean it up.
AUSTRALIA brought LYNAS to kuantan.
they said AUSTRALIA does not have the expertise….
how come? how come?
Now you are talking nonsense! Malaysia is struggling to provide internship with waiting period ranging from 6-8 months now. No countries is obliged to provide internship to their international student graduates. It is NOT part of the curicullum. Same goes to international students graduating from malaysian universities. Malaysia do NOT provide internship to them as well. You go overseas at your own risk and own cost. Why should they provide job for you!
So your statement is utter rubbish!
if you said waiting period is 6-8 months, this means they will still get a job, after waiting 6-8 months.
you should not be so defensive.
you are putting your shoe in your own mouth
I never said you will NOT get a job. But waiting will get longer and you will need to pay your loan after graduating! Gets your facts right first. BUT there is NO guarantee that you will get a job after internship!
It is you who is putting your foot into your mouth without knowing your facts! You have been proven wrong many times but keep twisting your statements.
who are you to decide what are the right and wrong reasons??
those who force their values onto others are behaving just like taliban.
nav, it is the right of every malaysian parents to send their child to medical school.
you can highlight all the inadequacies of the system.
As far as Malaysian Medical Council is concern, life goes on as usual.
MMC has the authority, not you or you or you or you….
MMC has the final say.
as far as parents are concern, it doesn’t matter what you think.
Again, you are shooting at your self and putting your foot into your mouth. You said democracy and rights. So who are you to decide what i should write or warn the public???
It is my right to say what i want and warn the students to decide based on what they want. It is better for someone to do something that they are well prepared for.
It is democracy as you said your self. Stop shooting your self!
you can write whatever you want in this blog.
i didn’t say you can’t write.
have you been able to change anything all these years????
i know the MMC,MMA, DG, ministers and the other policy makers are monitoring your blog.
the good news is you have been right all along.
the bad news is that fact that you are right means nobody listened to you.
are you getting it????
It does not matter! People like to learn the hard way. Be it but that does not mean i should keep quiet! Just because patients do not listen to you, should you stop educating your patients?
Yes, i am well aware that DG reads my blog.
Technically, what Jimmy Lee said isn’t wrong. Malaysia does have the capacity to provide Housemanship training for all the LOCAL graduates. However, the fact is that many Malaysians study outside Malaysia, and then return expecting to perform the Housemanship. This figure is estimated to be about 2000+ a year, about 1000 from Russia/Ukraine, and another 1000 from Egypt, with smaller numbers from Indonesia, India, and some other countries. The number from the developed world is small, mostly JPA or Mara scholars.
Does Malaysia have an obligation to provide Housemanship for their citizens who graduated from outside Malaysia? That is an interesting question, and while it does so far, that question may need to be revisited in future.
What Paga said is also correct, NO country has any obligation to provide Internship training for their international students. Malaysia does NOT. UK and Australia need not, but they try to accommodate those who want to. I don’t know about the likes of Russia, Egypt, Indonesia, but I don’t think any Malaysian wants to do it in these countries!
Finally, that comment really amazed me: “it is the right of every malaysian parents to send their child to medical school”.
It is NOT. No medical education system in any country in the world confer this “right”. It is a privilege based on careful selection of the RIGHT candidates. With the possible exception of Malaysia of course, in the current mess of a medical education we are in.
i am not asking you to keep quiet.
i am also not asking you to stop educating people.
you are being very defensive.
Go back and read your own statements!
THE POINT IS over the years you get many things right. your predictions came true one by one. your blog hit over 1,000,000 views.
You wrote HERE,HERE and HERE…some where down the years, you got is right THERE,THERE and THERE.
CONGRATULATIONS 🎉🎋🎊🎉🎋
But everytime you win a BATTLE, you are one step closer to losing the WAR.
People LOOK but dont SEE.
People HEAR but dont LISTEN.
This is a GLOBAL phenomenon, you can’t go against the world.
Admit it, you LOST
No, this is not a global phenomenon. We are overproducing but the rest of the world is only producing enough for themselves. They are NOT obliged to provide job for others who are non citizens!!
Admit that.
This blog does not force anyone to listen. It is an advise. It is up to the readers to decide. I have done my job.
obviously you have not done enough.
admit that.
Since when it became my responsibility?? At least i am doing something to educate people unlike people like you who only know how to comment but do nothing! My job is to inform the uninformed. There is no win or lose here.
by writing this blog to educate people, you have taken up the responsibility.
by writing against the curent trend of medical development, you “declared war on the establishment.”
and you are losing. admit that.
That is your assumption. I am just writing facts. Never did i have any intention to change anything. That is the government’s job, not mine. It is up to readers to decide what is best for them. So are you saying all doctors have failed because despite all the afford more people are dying of diabetes and heart disease? Admit that!
this is not my assumption.
this is my perception, and also the perception of most people who read your blog.
perception is what matters nowadays.
it is the perception of the people that you “want to change things”, or “you want things to change.”
admit that
I don’t have to admit to your perception! It was never my intention. I write the reality but it is up to the people to decide what is wrong and right. Similar to what you tell your patients!
you can choose not to admit my perception.
you can choose not to bother about people’s perception.
in doing so, you fail to manage the readers’ perception about you & your blog.
unmanaged perception create a reality opposite to want was wanted.
that is why your blog changes nothing over the years.
your 1,000,000+ hits changes nothing
I never had the intention to change anything in the first place. I am merely informing the public the reality out there. It is you who think otherwise. I will continue to write what I want. As I said, whether people or the government listens, it is not my problem!
FYI, i get hundreds of emails/comments almost monthly in appreciation of what I write. Hundreds agree that that they should have read my blog earlier. Hundreds agree that they changed their mind in doing medicine after reading my blog as they wanted good money, good life and guaranteed job!That is good enough for me to know that people appreciated what I did and doing!!
you said hundreds agree that they should have read your blog earlier.
i am sure they read much earlier, just that they didnt listen.
by the time they realized, it is too late, then they emailed to tell you, “i should have read your blog earlier”
“hundreds agree that they changed their mind in doing medicine after reading your blog”
that means other hundreds also have the same perception as me, that you “want to change things”.
admit it. you want to change things.
That is up to them , not me. Whether they want to change or not. My intention is just to inform the uninformed. Try to get that rather than twisting statements. I also get many emails/comments on people insisting to do medicine after reading my blog. I still tell them that they can go ahead as it is their choice and give advises on which university to choose!! If i want to change things, i will ask them to get lost!
Dr Paga is right!
I should have said ‘Full time Irish trained but non-EU medical students cant even get an intern job, let alone the PMC students!’
I apologise for the confusion caused.
when i graduated donkey years ago, i had to wait 1 month.
now you need to wait a bit longer, so what is the big deal.
local graduates in other countries also have to wait.
you seriously don’t expect to graduate today & become houseman tomorrow…
about servicing loans, there is always room for discussion & restructuring of payment.
about GUARANTEE, with the new circular from JPA, now GUARANTEE no new job for everyone in the government including teachers, engineer etc.
the problem now is NO MONEY, rather than NO PLACE.
are you going to ask everybody not to got for TERTIARY education??
but prior to this, have you heard of anyone not getting internship in MALAYSIA????
You are not getting the point! People invest thousands of ringgit to get their children to do medicine because they feel it is a guaranteed job! That has been said many times before in this blog. You don’t spend that much for other courses and thus you don’t feel the pinch that much. Do you know how much loan do people doing medicine take?
Yes, people with no BM are not getting internship now, people from unrecognised university who can’t get through MQE. FYI application to do internship in Australia and UK is done even before they graduate. They will start their internship within 1 month of graduating, even now! Our waiting list will be reaching 1 year by 2017!
The waiting time is just one of the symptoms of oversupply. More importantly, there is the issue of decreased learning opportunities and poor supervision caused by this oversupply. You now have some specialties staffed by 80 housemen when there used to be 20. Learning opportunities are therefore significantly diluted. Specialists can’t keep track of the housemen due to the numbers and poorly-performing housemen easily fly under the radar.
As specialty training places have not increased in tandem with the number of graduates, a bottleneck occurs and many will eventually venture into GP land, to practice in their silos without any real oversight and subject the general population to their inadequate practices.
whatever decision they made, it is still their RIGHT to do whatever they want.
this is call democracy.
by asking people not to spend “so much” to do medicine, you are being a Taliban.
same thing happened recently, you don’t tell people “what to wear” & “where to eat”.
regarding people with no BM dont get internship.
isn’t that a known fact.????
if you want to work in any organization, you must have the minimum requirement. this include credit in BM & passing MQE for doing housemanship in malaysia.
isn’t that a known fact???
Did I ever say DON’T do medicine???? I had always said that you should not do medicine for WRONG reasons!! Get your facts right!!
As far as it’s people’s right to do whatever course they want in a democracy goes, I reject that argument. In other democratic countries with checks and balances in their administration, it is not anyone’s ‘right’ to do whatever course they want. Restrictions in the form of minimum requirements, qualifying exams or recognition of degrees are in place to ensure quality and applicability to the health system. That is, they won’t allow 5000 doctors to come into the system each year when the system can realistically only handle 3000. Let alone having a proportion of those 5000 not having the intellectual basis to perform as doctors at the expected level.
Now, in Malaysia we have the situation where degrees from 300 overseas institutions are recognized, the majority of which are in countries which no Malaysian would even think about seeking medical treatment as they are suspicious of the quality of care. Yet, we are happy to send our children there to train as doctors. I should say rather, that our impotent medical council continues to provide recognition to these institutions. This is despite the fact that we have probably the highest number of medical schools per capita in the world, right here in Malaysia. And we also have to issue of decreasing and inconsistent standards of our pre-university qualifications.
You may think that it is the right of every Malaysian parent to send their child to medical school, without any regard for their training both at university and during their junior doctor years. Well, I think it is the right of every Malaysian to demand that we only hire doctors who are competent and that we maintain a system which allows us to train our junior doctors into competent specialists and GPs.
Anyone who highlights the inadequacies of this system will receive my support. All our loved ones will require treatment by doctors at some point and if the current trend continues, even going private won’t be able to shield us from products of this system.
Hi Pagalavan and Jimmy or anyone with insight,
I am an Australian citizen who is studying the UCD/PMC Medical programme. As per the competent pathway i need an internship from either UK, Ireland, US, NZ, Canada or Aus to return to Australia as a doctor and avoid AMC.
Which country listed above do you think i would have the best chance with?? Do any of these countries not require exams?
A completely pointless article – or rather, advertisement – about PMC by the Malaysian Insider, Dr Pagalavan.
1. All graduates of Irish, UK and EU medical schools are eligible for internship in Ireland regardless of their nationality.
2. PMC graduates have always been eligible for internship in Ireland since the college was established in the late 1990’s. So, nothing new in that piece of ‘news’.
3. Commenter CH above is absolutely right -the biggest issue is whether a non-EU national can get a spot. The internship matching system has changed since 2010. EU nationals are all ranked above, and separate to, non-EU nationals. So if you as a Malaysian were to apply, of course you would be eligible – but you would be ranked below the worst ranking EU graduate. And believe me there are many EU nationals across Eastern Europe swarming over to Ireland for internship and training spots.
4. Ah, training spots. Another big issue. Again, absolute and total preference is given to EU nationals in line with EU Community Preference law. Easier to get into for specialities like Internal Medicine, Emergency Medicine and Psychiatry (don’t even think about Surgery and its subspecs, or Anaesthesia or Opthalmology), but once you complete the basic specialist training a huge bottleneck for entry into advanced specialist training exists. You only get your CCST once you complete Advanced specialist training. Again, EU nationals are and will be given preference for this.
5. The reality is, the Irish healthcare system is in a crisis. As doctors, sure we like to complain – just ask all doctors working in different countries and they will all tell you that their countries system are in a crisis! As someone who used to work in Ireland (I left because I saw it get worse and worse first-hand), take that from me. You would only need to look at Facebook forums such as this https://www.facebook.com/groups/566600706700681/, and read the Irish Independent and Medical Independent to rapidly realize that the system is crumbling and the few people that remain/wish to work in Ireland will be the ones who will have to hold up the system with the backing of a health executive that is not sympathetic, if not a big bully, to doctors.
6. Many people use the Irish system as an alternative route to eventually working in countries like Australia and NZ. Australia is swamped while NZ, which has traditionally seen its doctors migrate to Australia, is now seeing the reverse instead. Jobs will be fewer and far between.
Dr Pagalavan, I urge you to highlight these points to anyone considering moving to Ireland. It may be difficult to believe but there are advantages of working in Malaysia when compared to places like Ireland, so the grass isn’t always totally greener on the other side although understandably one would be very tempted to think so.
Thanks for the info. Yes, i am aware of all those issues. I also feel that the article is just an advertisement. That’s why I brought it up over here.
It is obviously an advertisement and a desperate measure too to promotethe college. If I am not mistaken, their intake last year was way below than their usual intake of 120.
Dear 28
I feel I have an obligation as an Irish Graduate and one who has benefited from the Irish Healthcare System to defend it.
You raise alot of facts which are true, however your ending statement
‘ It may be difficult to believe but there are advantages of working in Malaysia when compared to places like Ireland, so the grass isn’t always totally greener on the other side although understandably one would be very tempted to think so.’
I think this swooping statement is a personal opinion and beg to differ and will make an attempt at throwing in my 2 cents. I will try to make an argument that the grass is indeed greener in Ireland compared to Malaysia. (Literally too because of the high annual rain fall, jaysus, green is the national color of Ireland)
I agree PMCs press statement is an advertisement. It is trying to paint a rosy picture to boost intake. You can apply, but you won’t get it.
But the Irish Medical Council recognizing malaysian internships, and therefore allowing m’sian doctors to apply for Senior House Officer positions, should be seen as a plus, rather then a negative. Throughout Dr Pagas blog he constantly reminds us that there are too many doctors in Malaysia And the grave realities of medicine in Malaysia.
28’s blogpost however paints a bleak picture of working and training in Ireland. I think this is not completely true. It is a matter of which country to compare with. And if you are trying to get out of Malaysia for whathever reason, Ireland is a country you should consider, especially when the gates are open and welcoming.
Hear my case
If you complete your housemanship in Malaysia and come to ireland, you will probably be given a position of Senior House Officer in rural Ireland, (Jobs in Dublin are more competitive).
You get:
Lifestyle
-A decent pay 2500 to 3000 euros per month after tax, more if you do more calls.
– Good oncall pay–> You are paid by the hour for oncall. At a rate of 1.25 on weekdays. A rate of double on sunday. So the more you do the more you earn.
-Cheap rent in rural ireland. 400-500 euros will get you a pretty good apartment
– No worry with traffic jams in rural Ireland.
– From personal experience, great people to work with, relaxed, non stressed atmosphere.
– Study leave for your MRCP exams–> yes you get priority for leave. Everyone who wants to do the MRCP gets the day off, no questions, and you can do as many attempts as you want. (don’t have to queue for your slot like in Malaysia)
– Weekends off unless you are oncall, thats normally one weekend a month, and won’t be the whole weekend, just a saturday or sunday. Yes you do not need to go in for weekends at all unless you are on call, and have all the time to travel Ireland and take in its beautiful scenery. (Correct me if i’m wrong –> Malaysian MOs do weekend rounds too even when not oncall??)
Well Recognized Training
– Why do you think so many Irish Trainees emigrate? Because they can. Irish training is well recognized in most english speaking countries, Aus, (Don’t need AMC exams) NZ, UK and American Institutiions are very welcoming for irish Grads because of strong Irish American links (USMLE required)
– Can do post grad exams: I have first hand experience doing the MRCP and yeah I did both MRCPI and MRCP UK. And I must say it wasn’t too much of a struggle–> passed all at first attempts. I would say that training in Ireland had a role to play. Training in an atmosphere that uses English and attempts to follow european or UK guidelines does help.
– Higher specialist training (HST)–> Thats after you finish your 2 years of basic specialist training (SHO). You want to move on to become a ‘specialist’ equivalent in Malaysia.
Getting into HST is competitive. But I don’t think its easy to get into a masters program in Malaysia in popular specialties. Many Malaysians have got HST positions, the specialties that have Malaysians that I know of: ENT, Respiratory, Ophthalmology, Cardiology, Nephrology, Peadiatrics, oncology, AnE, Endocrinology. If you put in the effort and are good enough, you will get in. But if you laze around and expect gold to fall from the sky then wherever you are, you won’t get anything.
Yes the current health system is pushing many to emigrate. However many irish doctors are leaving also because it is a cultural and the traditional thing to do. The Irish have emigrated for centuries. They built Boston and New York. . Indeed almost all Irish consultants have had a few years abroad mainly in America or the UK. To have spent a few years in America doing post graduate training makes one more marketable.
By contrast to the good old days of the Celtic Tiger, things are certainly not as rosy as they used to be, but hey, once again it is a matter of relativity. .
Comparing to Australia, work hours and pay may be less ideal. However we are talking about Malaysians who wish to migrate. And if Australia is becoming tough to get in, consider Ireland.
In conclusion, I think if one is looking for a place that pays well, good working hours, and good training, Ireland has its flaws and may be short in some aspects. But name me a country where doctors are treated really that well?? This is a profession that requires hard work and sacrifice, and no matter where one is, there are no shortcuts.
But I think if one is thinking of emmigrating out of Malaysia, Ireland should be given serious consideration. I indeed do think that the grass is greener in Ireland if Malaysia is on the other side of the fence, and would encourage my malaysian colleagues to move over if possible. Then we can go for dim sum together and yum cha.
SST,
I do agree with some of the points you have brought up.
Irish people remain the friendliest and most relaxed bunch of people I have ever met and worked with.
For me, I left very reluctantly because the prospects of advancing were just too grim with the introduction of EU community preference.
Everything else did not matter as all I wanted was to finish my training.
I have no regrets about my time in Ireland. The hours were long and my rotations were tough (probably not as tough as in Malaysia, but then again I have never worked in Malaysia). I loved living and working Ireland a lot, but I had to make a choice between my career and lifestyle.
Gone are the days though when it was so easy for a non-Irish to get into HST. Yes, I have met many Malaysians who completed their HST there but bear in mind they began training years ago when those nationality rules were not in place/not that stringently enforced. You can probably wait until you’ve got the equivalent of a green card here for a better shot but that will take about 5 years.
Completing my training was the absolute #1 priority for me so I had no choice but to move. I have no regrets moving either as today I am now not far from completing my training. If I had remained in Ireland, I would still be in a standalone job today. I miss the proximity to Europe too, but my consolation is that when I am done with my training I will be able to go back to Ireland as a consultant and not have to worry about career progression. Ditto if I decide to go back to Malaysia. And maybe I will have a different viewpoint of working in Malaysia then…
I guess I must clarify that Ireland wouldn’t be the best place to be for a person looking for a place to complete their training. I wrote that post as a person with that priority. If all I wanted was a relatively lifestyle and did not mind being a career Registrar or SHO then I would have happily stayed on. From my perspective and personal experience, leaving Ireland was the right decision for my career.
Dear SST,
Thank you for the detailed explanation about Irish Graduate. I am in the progress of looking for the best medical school in Malaysia and considering PMC as my choice since I will be recognized by Irish Medical Council and Malaysia Medical Council. I have strong passion to be a doctor since high school (not because of money) but the ability to understand human anatomy and physiology in depth, treating diseases and serve to sick people. Unfortunately, I was unlucky to get a JPA scholarship despite of good grade and my parents could not afford for the study. Therefore, I enrolled myself into nursing program in which I progress very well and now I am a Charge Nurse of Pediatric Cardiac Surgical ICU since 2013. I decided to work in Saudi Arabia four years back in order to earn and save for my tuition fee in medical school. I am super delighted to be able to save the amount of tuition fee in one more year and soon I will be able to pursue my passion. I might be old now compared to other medical students but I believe age does not matter. Is there any chance to keep in touch with you as I would like to know more about MBBS and working abrazo after completion of housemanship in Malaysia?
Thank you.
Su Wei
Hi Su Wei sure if you need any details regarding Irish Training I would be happy to help you out. Sorry for late reply. Just recently re browsing this blog.
You will however have to let me know best way to get in touch.
Kind Regards.
Dear SST,
I’m currently doing my MO hip in Malaysia in a tertiary hospital. I initially wanted to specialize in the field I’m in now but I’m getting tired of the long waiting for Master programme, hence is thinking of going abroad for some experience. Since Ireland does not require PRES currently, it seems like a good option. However, the constant complains by Irish doctors I see online makes it seems like the system there is almost similar to Malaysia. Any advise regarding this? Do you think now is a good time to go over ? And is it a must to take up gellowship exams in Ireland or are they opportunity to practice GP/ aesthetic there? Thanks
Hi SST,
I’m currently doing my MOship in Malaysia in a tertiary hospital. I initially wanted to specialize in the field I’m in now but I’m getting tired of the long waiting for Master program, hence is thinking of going abroad for some experience. Since Ireland does not require PRES currently, it seems like a good option. However, the constant complains by Irish doctors I see online makes it seems like the system there is almost similar to Malaysia in terms of long working hours. If I go there now as a SHO, will I face discrimination as I don’t graduate from an Irish or EU medical school as well. What about the working hours of SHO/ registrar there? Any advise regarding this? Do you think now is a good time to go over ? And is it a must to take up fellowship exams in Ireland or are there opportunities to practice GP/ aesthetic there? Thanks
Hi SST
Nice to read your comments. Can I contact you via email?
I am a Neurologist in Kuala Lumpur, and considering working as a Consultant / Neurologist in Ireland. Dr NKC
Hi SST,
Nice to read your comments.
Can I email you? I am a Neurologist in Kuala Lumpur, and considering working in Ireland as a Consultant / Neurologist.
Thanks. Dr NKC
Hi SST,
Im a malaysian doctor and Im interested to move to Ireland. Can I have your private email to get more information about this. Thanks.
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SST,
I understand where you are coming from. There is nothing more frustrating then putting in hard work and getting nowhere.
Higher Specialist Training, HST positions are highly competitive, in the past and at present, but not impossible. Many are dissuaded by hearsay that Non EUs won’t get in and never apply to begin with, or focus on moving on to another country after that and therefore make a lacklustre attempt at equiipping oneself to apply for Irish HSTs. I will not fail to mention those who would have given a limb for a HST post but still failed. Having that said, there are a significant number of Malaysians and other foreigners getting into schemes without Irish Passports, all within recent years. These individuals are highly motivated and have often committed two to three years to do a MD or PHD before entering HST. The sacrifice they have made makes them better doctors. I belief the bigger the monster, the greater the hero. I would prefer being in a training post that I had to work hard and prove myself, as opposed to a post that any Tom Dick and Harry who applied got in.
You are probably in US, NZ or AUS now. I suspect you would not have got there if not for you having your early training in Ireland. As mentioned above, Ireland is a good stepping stone for Malaysian Doctors if they wish to look for greener pastures. Once you are in, many more doors open up to you. You may wish to stay and attempt getting into a HST program , or you can move on to a third country. An Irish experience will make one very much more markatable in english speaking countries ie UK, NZ, or Aus. Certainly makes you more markatable then if you stayed in Malaysia
Your blogpost, however, risks dissuading a lot of frustrated malaysian doctors to move to Ireland, especially in your statement quoted above. My long winded post was to make sure they saw the other side of the story so that they could make a more informed decision.
Paga, actually more than 60% of Australian Med schools are Graduate entry, accounting for almost 60% of students. The figures you quoted are for those who will graduate with a “Doctor of Medicine” qualification, in contrast to the usual Bachelors. Only 8 of the 18 Medical Schools are undergraduate entry. The others are graduate entry, or phasing in graduate entry.
The purpose of this “MD” is to bump up medical graduates into Level 9 of the AQF. http://www.aqf.edu.au/aqf/in-detail/aqf-levels/
It makes sense, as medical graduates after 7 years of study, cannot be the same as the 3 year bachelors graduates in commerce/IT, or the 4 years Engineers/Lawyers.
Thanks for the correction. Did it late night!
Thanks for highlighting the issues for Irish Medical Gruaduates.
I have first hand experience working in the Irish Medical System.
I think it is an issue of expectations.
If one expects to ‘have a good time’ and be payed loads that is long gone. Like all medical systems, one is expected to work hard (often gruelling hours) and can only hope to be paid fairly.
Back in the day when Ireland was known as the Celtic Tiger where it had the most number of millionaires per capita in the world doctors were paid rediculous amounts of money. However since the european economic crisis involving Portugal, Ireland, Spains, and Greece, this phenomena has ceased. While pay is not as good, it is reasonable. No luxuries, but can live by. One can expect to earn approx 3000- 5000 euros/month including call, as a registrar in a training job. (Locums can earn much more but with limited prospects for training). Comfortable living, but not luxurious.
Many foreign doctors used to stay in Ireland because of the pay, even if that meant training was somewhat limited. However many have left since the pay cuts.
As for working hours there are signs of improvement (especially in the bigger teaching hospitals) to comply with the EWTD (European Working Time Directive) Ireland has been somewhat slow in implementing it compared to its UK counterpart. However Ireland pays its doctors for doing over time by the hour. So if you have less working hours, you earn less. Some people would rather work more and earn more.
Internships are difficult to obtain nowadays for non eus. Back in 2008 when I graduated however I was given an internship without much trouble. i guess Ireland being part of the EU has to comply with European Union laws that require EU Nationals to be given first priority.
However Malaysian doctors have a good reputation in Ireland and are highly valued for their competencies and work ethics. I think if one wishes to find a way out to ‘greener pastures’ Ireland is certainly a stepping stone if not the final destination. Ireland recognizes most membership exams from the uk or irish colleges, which most malaysian specialist have. Also with the IMC recognizing Malaysian Internships I think it is a great opportunity for Malaysian graduates to come over and get their MRCPs done. The trend in Ireland is most doctors finish their MRCPs within 3 years of graduation. Study time and exam time are given to doctors in training, and therefore it is much easier to pass (Contrast to the M’sian system where one will find difficult even to get a slot to do the exam).
As for local doctors emigrating, one must understand Ireland being a small island nation has the spirit to migrate engrained in its citizens. Certainly in its higher specialist training schemes one is even required to do fellowships abroad as its culture values the advantages of seeking another perspective and bring back skills. Younger doctors migrate temporarily to experience life and another healthcare system. Some come home but some don’t. Many irish doctors see migrating as a process of growth and self improvement.
Being a Irish graduated training in Ireland, I have no regrets. I am not an EU citizen but have been given opportunities equal to any Irish citizen. I am in my early 30s old and am almost at the end of my specialty training. (specialty of my choice, and its a very popular specialty). I do not think I would have been given this similar opportunities if I were to go home to Malaysia. While there will be dissatisfactions, I think if one is willing to work hard and prove oneself worthy it is a reasonable place to work and live in.
Hi,
Nice to read your comments.
Can I email you? I am a Neurologist in Kuala Lumpur, and considering working in Ireland as a Consultant / Neurologist.
Thanks. Dr NKC
Hi dr,
I am a malaysian doctor and I am interested to move to Ireland. Can i have your email to get more information about this? Thanks
Even sponsored students choose to stay put in foreign lands. I have known several JPA medical students who had stayed on to do their internships in Australia or the UK after graduation. Not sure if JPA is even aware of that.
Yup, nothing new. However, JPA is more strict nowadays. You need to pay the total sponsorship amount if you don’t come back.As for MARA, they are not bonded.
Dr, what is actually Skim Latihan Bumiputera (SLAB) in the pathway to specialization in Malaysia? A fast track?
It is for bumiputeras only. A faster pathway for doing Masters. But they will be bonded with the university to become a lecturer
Dr Paga . Thank you for your information It will be interesting to see how many of the 2015 PMC graduating class get to do internship in Ireland. I wrote in earlier this year to the Royal College of Surgeons Ireland and was told all foreigners have to leave Ireland and are unable to do internships in Ireland. My 2 eldest children did medicine in Monash Malaysia and got jobs .i am a GP and migrated in early 2008 and am happy here as I run my own surgery and have 6 doctors working for me. Please get in touch with me via Thim@thewellnesshouse.com.au
Interesting. I thought they do not allow Australian citizens and PR to enrol in the Monash Malaysia medical programme? It would be considered a back door entry, as the criteria for selection is a lot easier. Just as they do not allow citizens and PRs from matching to Oz/NZ in IMU PMS.
The question is, if you are a Malaysian, how would they know you are a PR? If you don’t declare, would they really check?
They don’t. Just like they don’t allow Aus/NZ citizens to join IMU (or if you are a PR, you’re not allowed to transfer to Aus/NZ). If PR is granted after you join, that’s another story. Quite a while ago, I heard of some who joined IMU without declaring their PR status but can’t verify the stories.
They will ask for a declaration. You can lie, but come matching time and you need to apply for a student visa, they will know. Or upon graduation, and you apply to work in Australia, the AMC will perform primary qualification verification(PSV) and find out.
For PRs, they cannot match to Oz/NZ but after graduating from say, UK and completing GMC full registration, they can apply for provisional registration under the Competent Authority Pathway.
Becoming a PR midway through the course, is okay.
Dear Thim,
May I know how’s ur son’s comment about Monash Malaysia? Cause I am having a tough time choosing uni between NUMed and Monash Malaysia Hope that you can give some advice. Thanks!
1) Your son should go for Monash Malaysia if you want your son to go overseas to work. Mathematically the chances of getting an internship in Oz is less as compared to the 1st 2 batches of Monash Malaysia .
2) I may be wrong on NU Med but although you get a medical qualification registrable with the UK Medical Council there is some political clause that will not allow any medical graduates from NUMed to work in United Kingdom and it is clearly spelt out in their website.
3) Currently IMU graduates will stand the best opportunity to working overseas after graduation and we await this year’s 2015 graduates from PMC and their success rate in securing jobs in Ireland
4) However if you want your son to work in Malaysia after graduation, there is not much difference in the choice of medical schools.as long as they recognised by MMC.. I may be wrong . and p
erhaps Dr Paga may help you out.
1) The chances of getting an internship in Oz for Monash Malaysia graduates are very slim. Last 2 batches, only about 10/batch manage to get internship post. Some did get during 2nd intake at Tasmania.
2) Yes, you will not get the work permit to do internship. This was clearly mentioned by GMC.
3) IMU degree is not recognised elsewhere. Only IMU-PMS twinning program are eligible to work in the country where they graduate from.
Hi Dr yet again another well written article! Sorry for detouring but I would like to know if doctors in Malaysia are prohibited from getting tattoos, even if it is hidden when in work attire but not when in scrubs
What is your take on this?
As far as I know, there is no such rule. However, if you can be prevented to enter a government building with a skirt, anything can happen !
Thank you Sir!
An open letter written by Gouda (class of 2015 from National University of Ireland, Galway) on difficulties in securing intern positions for international students graduated from Irish medical schools.
For future medical students, if you are considering Irish medical schools and hope to work in Ireland as an intern after you graduate, I suggest you to think again.
http://www.medbygouda.com/
Dr. Paga, how about MBA after MBBS ? Good choice ? If yes, then where to pursue MBA ?
What is the purpose of you doing MBA? It is of no value if you intend to continue practising medicine.
by doing MBA there is career right ? Under management & others
Not in government sector. Even in private, usually it is the business man who runs the business, not doctors. Unless you want to quit medicine all together.
in private practise, doctors become bussinessmen…
MBA will definitely help
i wont tell you not to do MBA,
my purpose is to inform the uninformed
Doctors who go into private practise as a clinician do not get anything by doing MBA. That’s my opinion. Unless you want to quit clinical medicine altogether.
doctors who go into private practice do set up companies.
if you are a GP, you will dream of having a chain of clinics.
if you are a specialist, you will dream of running a medical centre.
you need to dream big.
dont be a “frog inside a coconut shell”
if you want to a frog & confine yourself within the four walls of your clinic, then forget about MBA.
MBA is for those who dare to dream
As i said, you don’t need MBA to do all that. Most businessman do not even have a degree. Unless you are seeking employment.
MBA = Master of Bussiness Administration.
it is not compulsory. it is optional.
most private doctors are practically bussinessmen
ever wonder why many clinics close shop???
you want to run your clinic/ bussiness successfully, you should get MBA.
i know a lot of GPs have diploma in dermatology.
it is necessary??? of course not. but you can better manage skin conditions at the primary care level.
As you said and i have said, it is not compulsory. Anyone can do anything they want but whether it will make any difference is another question. To be a businessman, you don’t need any extra degree. What you need is brain, a lot of reading and money!
you need the “brain”, that is what education is all about… so go get MBA.
that will take care of the “reading” part as well….
“money” will then follow.
You don’t need MBA to get that ‘brain’. That’s why most businessman don’t have a degree!
those are mediocre bussinessmen.
there is a fat guy from penang who graduated from a world renowned bussiness school.
he made USD 500 million in a single deal…how about that!
There will always be some “success” stories like that(either legal or illegal business). Look around and see how many successful businesman have a degree!! That’s the fact. How many business admin graduates are jobless to start with.
an extra degree will give you more credibility.
ever wonder why many Physicians have all three MRCP(glassgow), MRCP(London), MRCP(Edinburg)….
pediatricians also do the same….so many MRCPades behind their name. taking the same exam in different centres to boost their marketability.
same with taking MBA. it is not a waste a time. it is investment to build up your reputation & to broaden you view
hahaha, there is NO such thing as MRCP(London) MRCP(Galsgow) etc. It is only known as MRCP(UK). It is a conjoint exam , NOT individual separate exams! Looks like you are lost. Where as FRCP is not an exam. It is just a membership of the college.
As I said, anyone can do any degree, but it does not mean it is worth it. To be a businessman, you don’t need to do MBA. Unless you intend to get employed.
now MRCP is a conjoint exam.
MRCP used to be conducted by RCP edinburg, glassgow and london separately.
at those days, many sat for all 3 exams.
if today MRCP is still conducted separately, i am sure many will still take all 3 exams!
having more qualifications look good on your CV.
you got more things to put in your website & bussiness card.
and all these will be translated into more $$$.
get it!
Even those days, it was the same exam but it depends on where you intend to sit for the exam. Since 1990s, it is known as MRCP(UK).
Of course, if your intention is to make money by playing tricks/cheating public, you can have all the degree you want behind your name!Some may even be a 3 months course! That’s why in the hospital chain that I work, we do not allow any tom, dick and harry degree behind your name. It must be validated as a proper degree with proper training.
this is not about cheating.
this about enhancing your credibility.
yes, with valid degree and training. Not some dubious degrees. Even MBA nowadays are done part time with a lot of plagiarism.I will say it again that MBA is not a necessity unless you want to quit medicine altogether and go into other ventures.
Dr Paga, you are absolutely correct !. Many people are conned by the promised MBA training will provide them in real life. To make the story short, only Top 15 MBA in the world can actually make a difference in your career and non of the local MBA degree (even those from foreign university in Malaysia) will give you any value in Medical line or other line of business.
Top MBA program from Harvard or London Business School etc has accepted students that are already very successful before entering the program. So, an MBA qualification is just a tool for them to “network’ to the next career path.
MBA qualification from the top world 15 give the potential employer the assurance that the graduate are self motivated and excellent communication skills.
I have 25 years of experience in finance and business and few post graduate qualification in business and finance. Up till today, I discover the most valuable business knowledge is not from MBA textbook (most of the material are useless in real life), but from small successful business chain like grocery store, food store where you really learn how they manage staffs, select business location and financial matter. Talk to them and find out their challenges.
If you do an MBA and still weak in interpersonal and communication skills, the MBA will be only be a piece of decorative on the wall.
Conclusion : do not do MBA if you are still practicing medicine.
It depends on what you want to do after your MBBS, and where you are practicing.
If you intend on moving into hospital administration, then there would be some benefit (although there are also specific health services administration courses for this).
If you intend on being primarily a clinician, then don’t bother because you won’t have the time to use most of those business admin skills if you are a full-time clinician. Even if you are in private practice, doing an MBA is over the top. Many private practitioners form companies to run their practice but the basic know-how on how to manage a company for your private practice can be gained by talking to an accountant and looking at some websites. I can tell you that from my own experience.
However, if you going into medical business (e.g. running a chain of GP clinics or being a director of healthcare-related companies) then an MBA would be useful. You will have minimal time for clinical work if that is the case.
Lastly, there are a few people who decide to do an MBA while doing specialist training because they think it will make them more marketable. The same reason some trainees to postgrad certs/dip in medical education, research, tropical medicine, dermatology, etc. In may be an advantage in places where hospital departments do their own hiring and might find someone with an extra qualification as useful for the functioning of their department. That obviously does not apply in the Malaysian public service context, where you will be posted wherever. Even if Malaysia implements a health board/trust system where each hospital (or group of hospitals) hire their own specialists, I suspect they will look at things like race and contacts first. The same applies for private hospitals in Malaysia. I may be a bit cynical in this respect.
turga must be very well-informed by now
She must be overloaded and confused by now.
Yup, agreed.
Why I will never allow my child to become a doctor..
http://www.godyears.net/2015/05/why-i-will-never-allow-my-child-to.html?m=1
Hello Dr,
I stumbled across your blog while browsing the internet. Your writings are immensely insightful to read.I’m not a doctor by profession, I’m actually here to speak my partner’s mind. She’s a MO attached to the medical dept in arguably one of the busiest hospitals in Klang Valley. She has been going through hardship at work recently,constantly finds herself difficult to cope with the workload and she isn’t really happy working in the medical dept as her interest is in aesthetics. She’s been mulling to quit the government to pursue her career in private hospital but at the same time, very worried of the current volatile Malaysian economy.I would greatly appreciate if you could share your opinion/suggestion on this. Thank you & have a good day 🙂
Firstly, has she completed her compulsory service? Private hospitals only hire medical officers for their Emergency department. If her interest is aesthetics, opening a clinic will be a better option.
Hey all.
It was really enlightening to read your conversations. I am an Indian citizen and was thinking of doing medicine at PMC but what worries me is internships as they are not guaranteed. Especially for an international student like me. Do you guys have any idea about internship or speciality training prospects for international students in Ireland or Malaysia?
Thanks. I would be grateful for some information.
Malaysia DO NOT provide internship for foreigners.
Even international students graduating from Ireland universities are not getting an internship post in Ireland, what more from PMC. The chances to get internship post in Ireland is very slim.
Thanks a lot for your reply Dr Pagalavan. I really appreciate it. I am a graduate in neuroscience from a UK university. But my GPA was not very good as to get accepted in medicine in UK, also the fees in UK is very high. Have you heard of Caribbean medical schools? I was looking at them and they seemed alright, but only a selected few.
Any other suggestions would be much appreciated as well.
Thanks again.
Caribbean medical schools are not recognised in Malaysia. IT is another money making industry there
in medicine, there is no room for easy life.
economy is very very bad right now from china to greece, that means government hospitals will only get more congested.
she should be thankful that she still has a job.
work hard for your country!
[…] the need to sit for PRES examinations. I had written about the problems that Ireland is facing over HERE. Obviously, not many Malaysian will be interested to work in non-English speaking EU countries. […]
Dear Pagalavan or anyone else with insight,
I am an Australian citizen studying Medicine at UCD/PMC programme, in my first year. I need my internship to be from US, Aus, NZ, Canada, UK or Ireland to return to Australia via competent pathway. Which country that i listed would you say would be the least competitive (ie. i’d have the highest chance) gaining an internship from? Do any of these countries require no exams?
[…] that this may affect you as you will be graduating somewhere after 2021. So, I had spoken about Australia, UK and now US. The saying that ” doctors will never be unemployed“, ” doctors are […]
Dear Pagalavan or anyone else with insight,
I am an Australian citizen studying Medicine at UCD/PMC programme, in my first year. I need my internship to be from US, Aus, NZ, Canada, UK or Ireland to return to Australia via competent pathway. Which country that i listed would you say would be the least competitive (ie. i’d have the highest chance) gaining an internship from? Do any of these countries require no exams?
You don’t have to spam the blog by sending 3 messages.
Australia has very good medical schools for almost free, so I will presume you failed to make the cut to get in. So you went looking for a back door.
In which case, you should have chosen the IMU-PMS option. That will get you into a UK clinical school, and an almost assured FY. Not sure why you didn’t.
With PMC, the only place where registration is not an issue is Ireland. But Internship in Ireland with the PMC pathway is almost impossible, as is already detailed in this forum. There is also almost zero possibility for UK, and of course impossible with Australasia. USA will still mean the UMSLE exam.
So I guess it will have to be the AMC.
If you are not too far into the programme, you may want to think about restarting with IMU-PMS.
Sorry for spam, it didnt show my comment all 3x.
They are definitely not free, its hecs payment. Uh-oh better read up on your facts jkl. Yes i didnt get into a public uni.
PMC/UCD has gotten me into a Irish pre-clinical school, that doesnt guarantee me Irish internship- so why would IMU/PMS? WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE, I know im placed after Irish and EU but wouldnt that be the same for IMU/PMS for UK? What advantage would they have? And besides, its not impossible, 2 UCD/PMC students passed IEET and are on final stages of Irish internship (2015 grads). WHY IS THERE 0 POSSIBILITY FOR UK?
USA means USMLE, what about Canada or NZ?
And plus, I went for UCD/PMC because the degree is Irish. With IMU/PMC the degree isnt british. You need a degree AND internship from one of those 5 countries to qualify for competent pathway.
You are asking for help, so please be humble.
I said “almost free”. I am well aware about Hecs-Help, compared to international students and what you pay in PMC, it IS almost free. I am also well aware of the Competent Authority Pathway, as a relative has just gone through it.
You have obviously not done your due diligence. I think you should do your own research and understand, before asking again. Don’t ask to be spoon fed. As a hint, the location where the clinical component is done is vital.
I sincerely apologise jkl, i thought you didnt know what you’re talking about but you clearly do. Im very stressed and quite depressed about the matter, its my birthday today but my heart is just sinking.
Aha, yes compared to PMC it is basically free. Oh wow, i was dying to know about someone who went through competent pathway!! Where did they do degree and internship? How did the registration go? Are they now equivalent to an Australian doctor who did their internship and degree in Aus?
I have done a lot of research, but please help me out sir, I would really appreciate it. Can you please elaborate on where the location of clinical is vital!!
Today i found out that if i had done degree just at UCD then it would be same price and i wouldnt have to sit IEET exam! I’m so depressed about this matter, about my chances of getting irish internship and successfully going through competent pathway, please help me out jkl!
it is a matter of googling info!
http://info.imu.edu.my/medicine-pms-sg
“With the IMU – Partner Medical School (PMS) Medical programme, students will undertake their first 2.5 years of study at IMU in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, and then transfer to one of over 25 PMS to complete their studies and graduate with a degree from that PMS. Housemanship can also be done in the country of the PMS subject to certain requirements and immigration regulations by these countries.”
Can we please stop discussing IMU? As I said, the degree would be Malaysian so I couldnt go through competent pathway. And besides, i’ve paid for half of UCD/PMC no going back.
omg, cant you read?
“..then transfer to one of over 25 PMS to complete their studies and graduate with a degree from that PMS” !!
you will graduate with a degree from the partner medical school, the school you’ll be doing the clinical years!
Earlier it says “Just like they don’t allow Aus/NZ citizens to join IMU (or if you are a PR, you’re not allowed to transfer to Aus/NZ” cant you read? BTW im sure they’d still struggle with finding internship.
I am Aussie.
And again, i already requested to stop discussing IMU and to please help me out on my situation.
If I were to be in your shoes, I would prepare myself for all eventualities at this point of time.You are in 1st year of medicine and have another 4 years to go. Anything can happen in these 4 years really.
Plan to do the USMLEs now since you are still early in your pre-clinical years and complete part 1 and 2 by final year.This would be the safest bet among all.
When you graduate, then evaluate the NCHD scenario in UK and Ireland. I am sure you are aware of with the NCHD issues in Ireland and UK, many junior doctors are choosing to leave to work in Australia and US. If this exodus happen, then they might open up more internship and junior doctor places for non EU graduates. So, if you manage to get an intern place by the time you graduate in Ireland then go ahead with it.
Finally, plan to do the AMC exams after reviewing the situation in Australia by final year or so.
There isn’t a least competitive route or highest chance of you gaining an internship from any of the places you mentioned as in 4 years, things may change.
Hi GP,
Thanks for your response. I’m in a really dark place right now, didn’t think anyone could be this depressed on their birthday. But yes, the thought of trying out US internship if Irish internship doesnt work out calms me down just a little. It’s so sad, I chose the UCD/PMC route to avoid sitting the AMC exam and yet i may have to sit the US equivalent.
US would use my GPA too, correct?
NCHD will only remove doctors that have already done internship. Maybe you’re right though, if there are less NCHD’s they might open more internship posts to counter that even if interns are less qualified.
Yeah, that’s my i came here. The hope of getting an Irish internship. Then everything would be okay, i’d go down the competent pathway easily. EVERYONE IS THIS CORRECT? A PMC/UCD degree + Irish internship and i’d get into Aus via Competent pathway, yes??? Jkl can you confirm?? Can anyone confirm?? So far ive only seen UCD degree + irish internship go through competent pathway successfully. Please confirm, it would help me breathe so much better.
WOULD I BE AT A DISADVANTAGE TO GETTING US INTERNSHIP AS A UCD/PMC GRAD, VERSUS IF I WAS JUST A UCD MEDICINE GRAD OR A US GRAD??
Please reply to this, you have no idea how grateful i’ll be. Thankyou so much, God bless you sir.
All I can do is shake head. The quality of students nowadays is dismal. And while we can forgive the standard of English in Malaysia, as a citizen of Australia, and presumably have studied some years at least in Australia, the English is also dismal.
Australian citizens and PRs are allowed to enrol in the IMU-PMS programme, but cannot match to Australian/NZ medical schools. However, they can be matched to the other countries, mainly UK, and will then graduate from the PMS with the same qualification as the home students. International Students at the moment are virtually guaranteed FY in UK under the Tier 4 visa extension. You will get full GMC registration after F1, and then can apply to Australia under the Competent Authority Pathway.
Or maybe you shouldn’t…
You know saif, if I were you I quit medical school right away rather than wasting my parents money. As an Australian citizen with some years of English medium, why would you worry about taking another exam to prove that you are eligible for whatever competent pathway it is? even Malaysians with poor English background can pass usmle/ mrcog / amc or whatever the medical exams recognised worldwide. Just put extra effort can’t you!
Why didn’t you do all the research about which med school to go and the possible intern position before you even start medical school? imu pms isn’t all about Aussie uni.
this is one example why I said you don’t need to have perfect English to be a smart doctor!
Standard pathway through AMC exam definitely has less chance of internship than competent pathway. Not to mention way more waiting time to do exams. Please read up.
PS. I dont know a single PMC malaysian who has gotten through USMLE.
PMC is not the only school producing Malaysian doctors in Malaysia.
usmle is not only about inter/residency in the USA, some other countries also require usmle for residency application.
The only short, quick and dirty way is to quit med school.
Telling a stressed student to quit and give up? YOURE DISGUSTING! You’re name is very accurate, didn’t get into Medicine himself because too busy hating and definitely a spawn of satin. Go fuck yourself. My worst nightmare is to turn out like you, yes, even scarier than not getting an Irish internship!
Dear Saif, this is the very reason why I started this blog. Never do medicine for wrong reasons and never do medicine if your intention is to migrate. As an Australian, the easiest option for you would have been to do medicine in Australia/NZ. However, you chose PMC which is only recognised in Ireland. Ireland unlikely to provide jobs to non-EU citizens. USMLE does not guarantee you a post in US. If I were you, if you do not get an Internship in Ireland, doing AMC is the only other option. Being a Australian, you would have better chance for Internship in Australia/NZ after passing AMC.
Hi Pag,
Nice to hear from you. Getting into medicine in Australia is far easier than done, you can spend 10+ years trying and still fail. Even if you do, only THEN do you start medicine!!! I’m sure i wont have to spend that many years waiting for Irish internship.
Pag, all i need is internship then i will return back to Aus. And btw PMC/UCD degree will be conferred by the National University of Ireland, which will deem you a graduate of a medical school accredited by the Irish Medical Council. UCD is a constituent college of the NUI. So it IS actually a degree from a Competent Authority. That + internship and it is completely accepted by Australia.
I do medicine for the right reasons.
You said “Being a Australian, you would have better chance for Internship in Australia/NZ after passing AMC.” WHERE DID YOU GET THIS INFO? Because that would be good. Yes, if i dont get Irish internship after a year of waiting then i will sit AMC exams and USMLE too. Unfortunately.
Australia gives priority to their citizens and PRs, of course after their own soil graduates have gotten the place. I don’t think you need to wait for 1 year, just do it while you are still fresh from medical school, better chance of passing.
You’d think that Aus would give preference to Australian citizen but i dont think they do. You’re known by your med degree, so i think i’d be the same as any IMG. Unless you have a link which says otherwise.
Overall, it’s my birthday i shouldnt be stressing so hard. So in conclusion, i will do my best to get a high GPA, sit the IEET and hopefully get Irish internship. If not then i will look into PLAB (seems like 2nd easiest option, PLAB is pass/fail and lot of british docs leaving which is increasing) and then AMC/NZ/USMLE.
Who knows, i might even do well during my medical degree and transfer into medicine in Australia….
Guess what? To the assholes just abusing and bullying me here, I AM going to get that Irish internship or equivalent and eventually go down the Competent pathway!!!!!! It might take a year more than if i was Irish, but i’ll save $100,000 and negate AMC exams.
2 students have done it last year. They were exactly from UCD/PMC and non-irish.
With your childish attitude and pathetic manner, even with a ucd degree I don’t think you would be going anywhere, not even Irish internship. You can’t even figure out your own medical career pathway. Your attitude is the reason why people bullied you here.
Unlike you who failed to secure a place in Aussie uni, I did not go to medicine because of my academic performance and you are not worth another explanation here. With my high school performance I could have easily secured a place in YOUR oz med school.
Please note that there will be changes in the USMLE rule, it’s all in another thread in this blog. And passing Step 2 USMLE does NOT mean you will get a job. It is notoriously difficult for foreigners to get Internship jobs, you will need to score very high marks to stand a chance.
The chance of a PMC graduate doing Housemanship in Ireland is very small. And not possible in UK, as the off-shore Irish qualification is not recognised by GMC.
You cannot do housemanship in Malaysia, as it is now strictly reserved only for Malaysians.
So it’s still AMC as the best bet.
And why the fear? Are you afraid you may not be good enough to pass?
I dont know what you get out of being mean to stressed students jkl. I am being really nice to you. I topped NSW in Extension 2 English, so please. It was the UMAT that let me down.
IMU-PMS students have to pay an extra AUD$100,000. My parents are already stretched out THIN!!! As i’ve said, i’ve already paid for half of UCD-PMC programme, and that I too am going for competent pathway. Let’s say it takes me a year of waiting to get Irish internship, i’m sure that’s more economical then spending an extra $100,000. Also, whether they are matched to UK med school is another question all together.
I’ve asked so very nicely for you to cease commenting about IMU and to please answer my previous questions. Thanks jkl, i would really appreciate that champion.
What was your ATAR rank?
97.1 ATAR.
Now please sir, i’ve answered your questions. Can you please answer mine. IMU won’t accept me as a transfer and accredit my modules already completed. So let’s move on. How many years do you think i would have to wait for Irish internship? What GPA or IEET would i have to get?
When you say “As a hint, the location where the clinical component is done is vital.” what do you mean?
If I graduate with UCD/PMC degree and Irish internship I can go down competent pathway with no worries- why are you arguing with this jkl?
In regards to your friend who went down competent pathway: Where did they do degree and internship? How did the registration go? Are they now equivalent to an Australian doctor who did their internship and degree in Aus?
As a birthday present, or just to help out an extremely worried student- please just answer my questions as I have done yours. Please.
97 wouldn’t get you into undergraduate medical school as an Australian. But you have a 2nd chance, via the Graduate Entry Med schools, of which more than half of Australian schools are. Why didn’t you do that?
You are trying to avoid the AMC qualifying exam. Yet you are willing to consider sitting for USMLE, PLAB. Why?
jkl, grad entry is far more years and not as pretty as it sounds. PLAB is pass/fail. AMC is a series of extremely tough exams, and as i said many times (even in the article above) standard pathway doesnt guarantee internship!!!
I’ve spoken to doctors who worked in Aus from Ireland and they said waiting out to get Irish internship and competent pathway is a WAAAAAAAAAY better option than standard pathway.
Looks like you guys dont want to help, but just want to bully me.
Cmon jkl, just answer the questions. Enough is enough. Help someone out, it’ll do you good.
Also, you said UK is out of the question? How is that possible? I know Eygptian medical grads who sat PLAB and got in!! jkl what are you talking about?
You want an “easy” way, well we have told you the easy way, but you are committed to PMC.
PMC is a Malaysia degree, although awarded by partner Irish Universities. While it is recognised by the IMC, it is not possible to get Internship jobs in Ireland. However, things may change in future like GP said.
Off Shore Irish degrees are not recognised by GMC, so you have to pass the PLAB. Then you have to try to get a FY job. But you may not get a visa to work, as you do not have the Tier 4 student visa to extend.
And if I understand your angst correctly, you are worried about the Competent Authority Pathway. As long as you have full registration with one of the Competent Authorities, in this case IMC or GMC, you can apply for provisional registration with AHPRA.
Finally, I don’t think the AMC exam is as tough as you fear. If you are good enough, you can pass any exam. FYI, I passed the AMC years ago, although I decided not to migrate.
Thankyou jkl. I have asked IMU if i can transfer. But again, extra $100,000 is too much. I’ll see.
As an Aussie im sure i’ll get visa to work and PLAB is just pass/fail. Thats why i said i might go for UK. I have many doctor connections in London.
Yes but for competent pathway you require a degree from Competent Authority. I was just worried that the PMC part of the PMC/UCD degree might render that obsolete. But i don’t think it will.
Aussie internship positions for IMG is pretty much non existant. So AMC wont solve anything.
Your arrogance is showing again. Being an Australian is no different from a Malaysian, or Nigerian or Egyptian, as far as UK and EU immigration laws are concerned. And “doctor connections” will not make a difference either.
If you don’t get rid of such attitudes, maybe non doctor’s advice is valid.
I should add, after re-reading through the above exchanges, I think I know why you faltered at UMAT. You have shown an inability to understand what is clearly written, a lazy attitude looking for the easiest pathway, asking the same questions already answered within this thread, not bothered to research yourself information openly available online, and arrogance with your perceived position.
The UMAT (and ISAT for internationals) is designed to reveal applicants’ attributes and aptitude for a life of medical practice. You would have done badly, just based on the short display of behaviour last night.
I think the Australian system was right in excluding you from their healthcare system. You failed to display the attributes that will indicate a potentially good doctor.
budak ni dah la bodoh, sombong lg.
From the name, you can tell where he is originally from, not a native aussie. Not likely from the Middle East but the name mostly associated with south Asian countries. Asian is Asian, very proud if they hold passport from one of those English speaking countries..ah I shouldn’t make further judgment.
You can’t imagine to what extend some nationalities do to make sure their kids are citizens of one of these countries. I know some cases that a couple travelled to the states at 36 weeks of pregnancy and induced there, falsified pregnancy document, even one obgyn even smuggled pge2 and induced his wife in the hotel room before taking her to the hospital!
Dear Dr,
I was just wondering about the current situation of Monash Malaysia. Its AMC accreditation is due to be renewed in December 2017 and I believe that Monash Australia is changing its MBBS degrees (undergrad degree in clayton and graduate degree in gippsland) to MD from next year.
Does that mean that Monash Australia and Monash Malaysia will be giving two different degrees for medicine?
And, if this is the case, how likely do you think it is that the AMC will renew the accreditation for Monash Malaysia, considering that students in Monash Malaysia and Monash Australia will be getting two separate degrees?
I doubt Monash will risk removal of the AMC accreditation, which will effectively mean possible collapse of the programme. Some kind of arrangement will be made to continue the programme in tune with the Clayton system.
The migration of Australian medical programmes to an MD status is more for AQF banding purposes. Awarding a “Bachelors” degree puts it at AQF Level 7, but an MD will elevate it to Level 9. There is good reason for this, as it is obviously wrong to pitch a 5-6 year undergraduate qualification, or a 3+4 year graduate entry degree together with a 3 year degree.
If students in Monash Malaysia receive a different degree to Monash Australia won’t it undermine the credibility of the Malaysian degree? I heard in the past students in Malaysia received the same degree as the Australian students. With this change, won’t the degree be seen as much more inferior (than before) compared to the Australian degree, by both the AMC and the rest of the world?
I was told by my son who is now studying medicine at Monash Malaysia that they will be getting the same degree as their Australian counterpart i.e. MD.
I do doubt it as it would have been mentioned on the website if this were the case.
Although, having said that, current students will be getting the same degree (MBBS Hons) but from next year only Gippsland and Clayton will be changing the degree to MD. Malaysia will still be MBBS Hons. I wonder if that means they will be given different exams then. In the past haven’t they been the same?
The migration to the MD qualification only starts with the 2017 intake. The 2016 cohort will still graduate in 2020 with an MBBS.
The question is whether this is a cosmetic change in the degree awarded, or there is any significant change in the syllabus.
The current programme, syllabus, exams and qualification are the same for both Clayton and Malaysia (the Gippsland graduate entry programme has a different syllabus). If there is no qualification change for the Malaysia programme, this will bring doubts about the difference, even if the syllabus and exams are the same. The Monash Malaysia website continues to advertise the degree as MBBS.
AFAIK, there has not been any application to MMC for a change of degree awarded by Monash Malaysia.
Dear JKL,
I’ve been reading your posts and you seem very knowledgeable about the whole medical process. I would be very thankful to gain some advice from you…
I am 22 and trying to decide which medical school will be best. I have most of my life been in Australia but born in Msia and have Msia citizenship and Aus PR. I really wanted to get into Aus graduate med this year but did not succeed after interview. I am now looking at doing medicine in Malaysia, which will allow me to be closer to my family (I only get to see once/twice a year normally). I am debating between IMU (unfortunately cannot partner with Aus unis as I have PR, but could partner at UK and eventually sit exams and make my way back to Aus) or Monash (would be great if by the time of graduation an internship in Aus was likely). I guess my end goal is to work in Australia. Do you have insight into the best situation or anything about either universities?
Thank you
If I am not mistaken, Australian PR are not allowed to enroll in MOnash Malaysia. Please clarify with MOnash Malaysia.
Last time I checked, IMU allows Aus PR to enrol but cannot transfer to Aus/NZ. Aus citizens not allowed to enrol at all. I have heard of some sneaky ppl with dual citizenships enrolling, but I will leave that for you to assess the risk.
Either way, if I were in your shoes, I would transfer to the UK, do FY1 +/- 2 there, then move to Aus or NZ. No need to sit for any exams.
Monash Malaysia does not prohibit Australian residents (citizens and PRs) from enrolling per se, but their website states “Australian Residents are advised to apply to Clayton”, and I am not aware of them ever taking in any. This would be considered a backdoor entry, a big no no in the Australian culture. The entry requirements are a lot more lax in Malaysia compared to Clayton.
The IMU-PMS programme allows Australian residents to apply, but they cannot be matched to Oz/NZ med schools (NZ has since dropped out from the scheme), again for obvious reasons (backdoor entry).
There is the Competent Authority Pathway for International Medical Graduates (IMG) outside Australia, to get provisional registration in Australia without examination. So someone in IMU-PMS, matched to UK, graduating and completing F1 with full GMC registration can apply for Provisional Registration in Australia, and work. The process is well worked out, but they are silent on what happens if the IMG is an Australian Citizen or PR. Whether they will see this as another example of backdoor entry, is the question. I would clarify this matter with the AMC before embarking on a very expensive and long journey.
Of course you could let your PR lapse, and become a real IMG through the IMU-PMS programme and apply back through the CAP. You will normally get a 457 visa valid for 4 years, plenty of time to apply back as PR via the 189 Visa. You will however run the risk of Australia cancelling the CAP in future, cutting you off.
Finally, why not just retry applying grad entry medicine in Australia next year?
Good afternoon Dr. I’m a medical graduate from Mahsa University, Malaysia and am currently waiting for government posting for housemanship. I would like to practise as an intern and work in either Singapore or Australia. I’ve searched online n found out that I need to pass the AMC examination in order to register to work in Australia whereas Singapore only recognise medical degrees from UM and UKM. I’m thinking of whether I should take the AMC exam and practise there and get my specialist license from Australia or finishing my specialist exam in Malaysia then only try to apply to work in Australia. Hope Dr can give me some advice on this. I’m really very blur for my future now after waiting for 8 months now. Thank you so much.
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I think you should read my books!
Passing AMC does not mean you will be able to do internship/work in Australia. In fact even MOnash Malaysia graduates could not get internship post in Australia despite degree being recognised in Oz. It is never guaranteed!
No specialist exam except FRACGP is recognised in Australia. Thus, finishing specialist training in Malaysia do not give a license to practise in Australia.
There are 2 things that a doctor who wants to work in Australia needs to have. One is the licence to work. Other than a recognised degree, which MAHSA is not, it’s then to sit and pass the AMC exams. It is expensive and normally takes 2-3 years to complete.
The other is a valid visa to work. For IMG, it normally will be the 457 Visa. Unfortunately, to qualify for the 457, your profession needs to be in the SOL. While medical doctors have always been in the list, the profession is currently on the “watch list” for potential removal from the SOL. This may happen this year (1 July), or if they do not, potentially 2018. The reason is simply there is no more shortage of doctors, and even Internationals graduating from onshore Med schools had problems getting Intern jobs this year.
Therefore, even if you do pass the AMC exam, it is possible you will NOT get a visa to work.
By extension, it also means Internationals graduating from Aussie med schools may have to leave, as they will also not be able to get a 457 work visa to do their Internship in Australia. However, they can still use the 485 Post study work visa. But the door will be closed to Monash Malaysia graduates.
Hi Dr,
I would like to ask is getting MRCP means we can apply to practice/ training in Australia, new Zealand or UK? Thanks.
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Only UK.
Hi Dr,
Is it higher chance for malaysian MRCP holder doctors to get position for specialist training in Ireland? Thanks.
There is NO guarantee.
Hi doc, for the current
Hi doc for the current situation, involving brexit and pandemic, im in the middle of choosing med school.My choice now is PMC and Numed. For UK graduates from 2023 onwards they have to UKMLA dosent matter they are uk citizen or non-eu. Its the same for graduates from country’s all over the wolrd. So im thinking of going to PMC , sit for UKMLA if i want to go UK, if the political situation in UK is stablised. I think by going to PMC , I can register under IMC and staying in ireland during my studies would give me greater scope of health care system. If I choose UK later, in 5 yrs , I’ll do UKMLA. or numend is safer bet even in this brexit situation ? i need your advice
The political situation in the UK is not “stabilised”? How so? They have exited the EU. What exactly are your concerns about “this brexit situation”?
Why not IMU-UK partner medical schools ? So far nearly all UK medical school grads are guaranteed a place in Foundation. NUMED does not really offer you clinical years in the UK.
at the end it all depends on availability of post and visa requirements. Either way is fine but it a long way to go and many things can change along the way.