Today, many of us would have read the 2 depressing news from the mainstream media. The first was brought to the attention of the public via this blog almost 4 years ago. In fact, I started to write about this issue way back in 2006 in MMA magazine. The MMA president then did not quite agree with me and told me that I am exaggerating. The current MMA president seem to be more vocal and has brought up the issue of “oversupply” of doctors in various mainstream media over the last few months. Somehow, the DG and Minister of Health denies that such a thing will happen at least for another 2-3 years. However, they never denied the fact that we will achieve the ratio of 1: 600 by 2016 and 1: 400 by 2020. With close to 36 medical schools and more than 40 medical programs, it will be sooner than later. The quality of products are becoming atrocious at times. Over the last 2 weeks, I have had at least 4 queries by “medical students” on postgraduate education. These are students in their 4th/5th year of medical educations and yet do not know anything about postgraduate education in medicine. All of them felt that doing Master’s and PhD is like going for another full-time course in a university. I give up!
Another depressing news was about a 3rd year medical students who committed suicide. Based on the newspaper report, the likely cause could be depression as he did not want to continue with his medical education. However, his parents insisted (even though they claim that they had agreed for him to change course, recently!) I will say this again: parents should never force their children to do medicine! Most of the housemen who end up with the psychiatric department belong to this group.
Finally, I received an interesting email from a Malaysian who is currently in Canada. She is a product of IMU twinning program in early 2000. She has given me permission to publish her email over here, in this blog. It looks like the situation in Canada is not better either. Furthermore, she has also commented on the deteriorating quality of medical students who are undergoing twinning program in Canada which has led to some universities closing their twinning arrangements with IMU.
“From as far back as 2004, when I first transferred to Dalhousie University, there were rumblings that Canadian partner medical schools were considering withdrawing from IMU’s arrangement because of the quality of students they were receiving. In fact, the year I graduated, the 4 students from IMU (including myself) became the first cohort of students in the history of the partnership to complete the program without failing out or repeating. To my surprise, when I arrived at Memorial University of Newfoundland for my postgraduate training, I found that this was indeed a bit of a trend across all the partner universities. To wit:
I met Malaysian graduates of University of Western Ontario who confirmed that UWO was no longer keen on taking Malaysian IMU students.
Same for University of Calgary (though UoC was a little less vehement, because their 3yr program gave zero credit for the 2.5yrs spent at IMU meaning all transfers started in 1st year there)
Dalhousie, year after year, keeps saying they are withdrawing (I suspect the CAD$35,000/yr tuition fee they charged was too lucrative however, to follow through for a long time… )
Memorial, this year, has announced that they are no longer accepting IMU students.
Much of the problems stemmed from the fact that the students from Malaysia arrived ill-equipped to handle the rigors of clerkship. In the Canadian system, the 3rd year of medical school can best be compared to the housemanship year – 100hr work weeks (back then, though this is now capped at 80hrs) combined with having to study and sit exams was not exactly an “ease-into-the-system” welcome. At Dalhousie, the “ease-in” consisted of a 12-week “bridging program” in which a crash course on psychiatry and pediatrics was provided (because, back in those days, IMU taught zip on these two subjects). Following that, you were thrown into 3rd year and left to “sink or swim”. Many sank.
I am now on faculty at Memorial University and it has been interesting to note that the failure rate of Malaysian medical students transferring out to Canada – at least at Memorial – has been increasing. I am not sure why, since I do not keep abreast of developments in IMU’s curriculum. Suffice to say that, after 7yrs of rumblings in the system, Memorial has now withdrawn from the partnership. Your blog seems to suggest that there is something alarming happening in the system in Malaysia, and I wonder if that has anything to do with it, though I would have imagined that IMU, being older than many of the other private institutions now peppering the landscape of medical education in Malaysia, would be able to retain its faculty quality?
I consider myself extremely fortunate that I navigated the minefield of medical education in Malaysia and landed where I am. Malaysians arriving in Canada for medical school (via IMU or other arrangements) face a rather tricky problem: there are no postgraduate opportunities for non-citizens and non-PRs, which means that you end up with a Canadian degree and have to either go back to Malaysia or compete for a spot in the US. The only other option is to pursue postgraduate training in less-popular sites that are willing to overlook your citizenship status in favour of the Canadian qualification (because the qualification is often preferable to a Canadian citizen with a foreign degree).
The biggest draw for Malaysian medical students to come to Canada is the fact that IMU’s program was an incredible backdoor to a Canadian medical degree that bypassed the 3yr undergrad requirement. As such, those that do succeed end up being the youngest grads – when I graduated from Dal, I was younger than the youngest 1st year med student, and as such I got a headstart on my colleagues on the road to becoming an attending (I believe it is termed consultant in Malaysia). It was an incredible opportunity but that door appears to have closed at the majority of the Canadian universities that once partnered with IMU.
None of the Malaysian grads I knew, who went to Canadian universities, ended up returning to Malaysia. Given what I have read, I doubt I will return to Malaysia to practice, either. In any case, there is no opportunity there in the field of emergency medicine. Certainly, financially it would be rather disastrous to return. Average physician income in Canada is well over CAD$250,000 – rheumatologists, for example, had an average gross income of CAD$360,000. (Granted, taxes in Canada are much higher…but not that much higher!) Your blog highlighting the pay issues in Malaysia for young physicians is truly a reality check for those that go into the field expecting riches. Even in Canada, this is true – the average length of training for a physician is 3yrs for an undergraduate degree, 4yrs medical school followed by a minimum of 2yrs (family medicine) to 6yrs (certain surgical specialties e.g. neurosurgery) for the postgrad qualification. Following which one may pursue an additional 1-3yrs of subspecialty qualification (e.g. rheumatology would take 3+4+3+2yrs to finish from the point of entry into university after A Levels). As you have pointed out, during those years, even in Canada the pay is worse than working at McDonald’s when calculated out on a per-hour basis.
In any case, thank you for a most interesting read. I feel sad that this is the state of affairs in Malaysia – I had hoped when I left that, with time, the country would achieve progress but alas, it appears that is not so.
p.s :I forgot to mention – the average graduating medical student in Canada finishes with about CAD$100,000 – CAD$160,000 of debt. This debt collects interest while they toil at their postgraduate studies. So when they finish at last and are making that “average $250,000 salary”, they are usually far behind their peers who have gone on to establish themselves in, say, accountancy or engineering or other such fields. They “lose” those years of saving and asset accumulation AND have debt that they have to pay down. In other words, the physician begins his actual career (as a fully-fledged specialist) with a negative net worth of six figures….”
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‘No jobs for medical grads next year’
http://www.nst.com.my/nation/general/no-jobs-for-medical-grads-next-year-1.396549
parents should change thier mindset and take the hint .
“None of the Malaysian grads I knew, who went to Canadian universities, ended up returning to Malaysia” – Seriously? 😉 There are at least a few of them working with me currently in Bolehland! She needs to check her facts right, before making misleading statement like this!
Maybe she didn’t know ALL of them. 😉
she clearly said ” none that SHE KNEW” came back!
You can’t even comprehend what she said. What you know your friends doesn’t mean she KNEW them too. Wake up dude!
IMU Grad,
Being an IMU grad, your response is a bit rude to your ‘IMU lecturer’. ( on your phrase “wake up dude!”). There is a Chinese saying goes : ” if someone has had been a teacher for you even just for a day, you should regard him as a parent for the rest of your life” (it means you must respect your teacher like the way you respect your father. Or could it be that you never respect your own father too? My apology if I have made a wild assumption.
Though this is a Chinese saying, my personal opinion is regardless of whether you are Chinese or non Chinese, we (all races) must respect our teacher or lecturer.
Product of our current generation… No respect to their lecturers/teachers.
Respect has to be earned and not based on seniority alone.
If a teacher humiliates you and commands you to jump off the building, would you respect her and do as told?
Have your own thoughts, stands and principles. A student should be thought to think critically rather than following instructions blindly out of “respect to hierarchy and seniority”.
I think everyone should be respected regardless of his/her position.
If that IMU lecturer doesn’t read properly and is in an esteemed profession of teaching, wouldn’t you be worried of what nonsensical statement might be uttered out when he/she teaches his/her students? Having all that said, he/she mightn’t even be an IMU lecturer!
Lara, if a teacher humiliates one, one must have done something wrong…lolzz..and to make it worse, one might got mad and start disrespecting, being stubborn. Even tho the problem lies within oneself.
Hi Lara,
Giving respect and following instructions blindly are two different issues. If one jumps from a building as told by a teacher (an example posted by you), then it is following instruction blindly. But if one allows an old “rude’ lady (70- 80 years old) jumping queue in a toilet with many queuing behind, it is a respect for seniority (age), If a teacher, a supervisor or a parent is siting there ‘doing nothing’, yet one who is very busy still has to help running small errands, it is a respect for seniority(position) too. So respect based on seniority (age and position) do count and it should not be construed as following instruction blindly.
If that IMU lecturer did not read the email properly (to err is human), IMU Grad can highlight the mistake but not publicly telling his/her own lecturer to ‘wake up’.
一日为师，终生为父
Dr Paga, congratulation, being a medical lecturer in Monash before, you have a lot of ‘children’ . Haha!
Non IMU Grad=IMU Lecturer
Auntie, stop talking like an old lady and lecturing people like your own kids. There’re other better places for you to do your “public talk”.
“Non IMU Grad=IMU Lecturer.
Auntie, stop talking like an old lady and lecturing people like your own kids. There’re other better places for you to do your “public talk””
Don’t mind to be an IMU lecturer or any medical lecturer if I can be one. Kind of funny you keep saying I am an IMU lecturer. FYI, auntie indeed is an old lady (older than Dr Paga). So how can I stop talking like an old lady when I happen to be one? And is there anything wrong with talking like an old lady? Hi, any old ladies here?
.
Non IMU Grad aka IMU Lecturer
Wake up, old grumbler. This earth is not suitable for you. Go back to your Mars! You don’t need the crowd here.
Please take this somewhere else. If IMU was considered a 8/10 IPTS, reading the comments by you two, would have downgraded it to a 5/10.
IMU Grad,
Your years of education have failed you miserably, if you truly are a grad. You are a disgrace of your institution using words and phrase such as “wake up”, “old grumbler”, “This earth is not suitable for you”, “Go back to your Mars!” when someone does not agree with you. This earth does not belong to you, who are you to ask me to go to the Mars? Childish! You are just like some of our BN politicians telling some raykat to migrate or go back to China or India when they do not agree with their views.
Jaz and others, especially Dr Paga, my apology for causing some unpleasant ‘ripple” in this blog. Anyway, I shall write IMU Grad off and will not respond to him any more so as not to ‘upset’ other readers in this blog.
Non IMU Grad
The morale of the story – You can never earn your RESPECT from your children by grumbling on them.
No i think the moral is just because you went to med school and graduate as a doctor, doesnt mean you wont behave like a silly child online.
*graduated
I almost choked when I read about IMU Grad’s moral of story on RESPECT. Behaving silly and childish online, he wont earn any respect at all. He studied medicine in IMU? An abusive dr too?
You’d better take care of your self and not choked off for your life, Drlim/Non IMU Grad. Don’t hide under the skirt of another smelly a** and start grumbling again. The IFU university in Mars is urgently looking for a full-time lecturer for “Wake Up & Respect” course and you’re definitely qualify!
Those who are rude and childish are usually those underperformed, stressed,depressed and need help to be a better person.
He could be a victim of humiliation (due to poor academic performance or disciplinary problems) so now he chooses every opportunity to yell back at lecturer letting off his steam.
Drlim aka Non IMU Grad
Stop being an old fart and keep on grumbling nonstop. Life’s so miserable for you!
Lolzz
IMU grad, you are an embarrassment to your alumni. Try to engage in civil discourse.
Hi Nav,
IMU grad will accuse you as Nav aka Non IMU Grade aka IMU Lecturer aka drlim based on his mentality. Haha!
Forwarded this email to the IMU admin for further explanation… I think they know who she is! 😉
Does it matter?
not hard to trace who she is im sure. but dont vilify her. if there are inaccuracies, correct them instead.
A Non IMU Grad
How do pay respect to some dudes who made false accusation. The writer merely stated her fact from the people she knew. Furthermore, are you naïve enough to think that “IMU Lecturer” is indeed a lecturer in IMU. He/she could be you, dude!
IMU Grad,
Hi, be cool. So you may not be an IMU Grad, right? So you imposter ? I am not that “IMU lecturer” but a housewife who betul-betul a non IMU Grad. Whether that “IMU lecturer” is an IMU lecturer or not, you being an ‘IMU Grad”, you must give him/her the benefit of doubt, that is to accord him with basic respect. If you cannot even do that, then your years of education has failed you miserably.
I don’t think IMU will be liable for anything… Is there anything wrong in her email?
There’s nothing wrong here but out of nowhere this Non IMU Grad auntie suddenly jumped out or even became IMU Lecturer and started giving everybody her “public lecture”.
IMU Grad,
I did not comment on her email (to Dr Paga) at all, whether there is something wrong or right. I just said your response was a bit rude telling your “lecturer’ to WAKE UP. If you could ‘publicly’ telling your ‘lecturer’ to wake up, what wrong with auntie giving you my ‘personal’ opinion ‘publicly’ ? It Is not a ‘public lecture’ but just a mere personal opinion that you being rude telling your ‘lecturer’ to wake up. It is fine to highlight your ‘lecturer’s’ mistake, but not in such a rude manner.
Is that anything wrong with the poster on her facts? Why can’t you just stop your hot pursuit on her?
1st year med student here…
my father told me that 10-20 years back, when the goverment wanted to produce large amount of ” insan yang celik teknologi maklumat” the goverment control the race of student entering public uni for computer science course… Now with tons of computer science graduates in the market,(many are of single race) n they fail to find a job, goverment start to allow other races to enter the courses much more freely… is that true? I’m not trying to be racist here..
If the above statement is true, will this happen to medical course?
Of course, there is always a quota for races in the public universities.With private universities mushrooming since mid1990s, many non-Malays started to send their children to these private colleges.
CAD$30k per month salary r alot. Almost rm100k per month. No wonder none want to return. Lolzzz
It is not per month, it’s peryear!
It says $360 000 per year 😛
360k/yr – 30k/month. that salary is not uncommon in canada for most specialties
sorry, i thought you said C 300k permonth!
BTW, you can’t covert to Malaysian ringgit as cost of living and taxes are much higher in Canada.
C$360k pa is close to their top 1% according to this:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/wealthiest-1-earn-10-times-more-than-average-canadian-1.1703017
Jaz, do does she imply that most medical specialists in Canada are among the wealthiest being at the top 1% ?
Dr Paga, I think those who earn C360k per year in Canada is equivalent to those who earn RM360k here in term of spending power. There are many Malaysian earning more than RM360k per year, in different professions, a few of my close relatives are some of them, but they are not the wealthiest at the top 1% of Malaysia. And most senior specialists in private sector earn more than that too, especially those in klang valley. I know some consultants are earning RM50k to 60k per month.
Yes, of course. Some successful consultants can earn about 50-60K per month but to earn that amount of money, you will be practically staying in the hospital. And this happens when you are about to reach 40 years old!
I don’t think she’s implying anything, just stating facts that she knows.
to Poor MO,
I don’t think earning 360k per year in Canada/UK is equivalent to 360k in Malaysia. try to compare anything (house/car/education) in Canada and in Malaysia.
poor doctor – 360k in canada is DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME as 360k in malaysia. maybe not equivalent to 3x as the exchange rate would suggest – but perhaps its like 700k malaysia (Estimate, i have no science to prove it).
Pagalavan, in canada you are allowed to incorporate as doctors (90% of them do), dropping your effective tax rate to about 25%, sometimes even much lower.
great education is mostly free (read : no 100’s of thousands of dollars for education for your kids). most of healthcare is fee (healthcare is very good, less need for private healthcare). the country is safe (less need for guards etc). houses, although expensive, are dollar to dollar cheaper than most of KL and penang (downtown toronto apartment is 600 – 800k for 2bed, might be 1.5m in KL). cars are cheap (for 70k, you get an M3 – you dont have to pay RM 4-500k for it.)
the point of that is to suggest the purchasing power and value of 360k a year in canada is definitely no where close to 360k ringgit/yr.
Agreed.
In Malaysia, private doctors are allowed to form corporate companies to reduce tax as you are not employed by the hospital.
For those who just consider money as their incentive to practice, they will often be disappointed in their life as greed can never be satisfied. You need to have passion in medicine in order to excel. It is not necessary to practice in a developed country in order to excel or considered to be successful judged by the amount you earn. You can be equally successful and be a great doctor in developing country. One such doctor is Dr Sanduk Ruit, a nepali who certainly don’t earn 360k per year, not even in ringgit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanduk_Ruit . He is the Reader Digest Asian of the Year 2007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GravityFong/Reader's_Digest/Jan_2007/Miracles_by_the_Thousands. He is my inspiration.
Based on the above “IMU grad” analogy — he will shout at Dr Paga now “Read carefully!! Wake Up dude!” 😀
That’s right. Doctor can set up a sdn Bhd company and if the income is less than 500k per a mum, the tax is 20% max after expenses deduction.
I think the estimate of over 200k/year is a little high. Nonetheless, most students in Canada end up doing Family Medicine. 2 years of postgraduate training and you are done, with a controllable lifestyle and a nice cabin out in the country. Although specialists make more, the difference in compensation is not huge in Canada, unlike the US. In fact, in the UK, I believe GPs make more than specialists now.
I think you may have more purchasing power in canada with this salary. Despite taxes, I think you will live a much more comfortable life in Canada with a 60,000/year salary than in Malaysia. Cars are dirt cheap compared to Malaysia, and you have world class education for very little money. What about clean air, clean water, etc, and other things that you can’t put a price tag on?
I’m not sure I believe the average income of 360,000 for rheumatologists in Canada. Orthopedic surgeons, usually the highest earning specialty, earn about $200,000 in Canada on average.
I think many people here have a skewed perception on how much money doctors should make, and may be in for a shock when they eventually come out to practice. Anyways, to put things in perspective, the median household income in Canada is 48,000/year. If you make more than 100,000, you are already much better off than 90% of the population in one of the richest countries in the world.
Canadian grad, I agree with everything youve said, with the humble exceptionthat canadian specialist salaries rarely top 200k.
http://www.ottawaheart.ca/careers/employment-opportunities_4801.htm
that example is the standard rate for an academic job – which is much lower than community private practice (fee for service).
Looks like you may be right, dharma.
Here is a posting for a different academic job along the same lines (int medicine subspecialty, med oncology).
Click to access Medical%20Oncologist%20-%20Regina%20-%20Nov%202013.pdf
Dr , in your opinion when do you think both the newly graduated pharmacists and dentists will be affected as how the medical graduates will be affected next year ( no job for them ) ? I’m pretty sure both the no. of pharmacists and dentists are drastically increasing no ?
I am not sure but pharmacist post in government sector is also almost full. But the private sector is still short of pharmacist. I am not sure about Dentist
I personally know of two amazing MO / specialist (twinned from IMU) who returned to serve our country after their training in Dalhousie/US. They are very very very good, and I have a lot of respect for them.
Indeed, the education system in Dalhousie is superior to all of the medical education in our country, and they function more like a houseman compared to most other 3rd year medical students. I admit that I am worse than my peers who were in Dalhousie when I was in third year. After knowing what my friends had to go through, I feel more motivated to learn, because when I am still reading what class of medication to give to my patients, they are already prescribing with dosage, they are the first line, and nurses page them in case of emergency.
In my humble opinion, the situation in which most students are not doing too well in some of the partner medical schools / Canadian university could probably because that, apart from being exceptionally demanding, Canadian University isn’t really most students’ top choices. Hence, in terms of matching, some students who weren’t mentally prepared for the challenge were matched, and crashed under pressure. Let’s not forget about my other friends who twinned to UK universities, and who are doing very well there. Most top choices for PMS were Australian / UK top schools. From what I understand, if your result is better, the university of your choice will rank you higher.
After all that being said, I still feel that because everyone is different. Wherever you are from, It’s up to the student’s attitude to learn as well. Learning curve is still steepest after we practice. If you have the passion to learn, passion to make patients feel better (it’s not all about medication!! but communication too!!), you will improve with slowly but surely time even though your university might not have equipped you as well as the others universities. Let’s stop labelling graduates, and focus more on personal growth, shall we? Such as: how can medical graduates improve and be better doctors ? How can we learn better and stand out?
On a different note, I think IMU has prepared me rather well until clinical school. We might not have awesome tertiary hospitals like the public universities, but somehow I feel that it was very sufficient. I was given various opportunities and resources to learn, and I appreciate my chances to meet my patients. My passion grow everyday as I meet more patients, apart from the relationship between symptoms, disease, Ix results, each of them has a unique story behind, which could actually be their main concern in life, and not the disease. I too get inspired by my lecturers, specialists with a passion to teach, kind hearted and warm to patients, my friends who are eager to learn etc.. One thing good about private university is that, almost of my batch mates joined medicine on their own will, and that we motivate each other to improve. The expensive fees (LOAN!) too stressed me to study even harder, and I am become more realistic, and learnt to plan for my finance. Of course, my realisation might be different from everyone else…. but what I am trying to say is, private universities isnt all that bad. 🙂 And it feels good to know that I am on the right track….. at least for now… 😉
Not ALL private universities………
i echo the original poster’s comment: the american medical education system is very different from the commenwealth education system. their clinical years are very clinical heavy. I spent some time in penang and ireland during medical school, but practice in the US now: even though the north american medical schools are only 4 years long, their 3rd and 4th year students really are put very close to the front lines. as result, their students are more used to managing more. they carry pages, take call, admit patients and function essentially as housemen.
in fact, just to put it in context: my housemanship in ireland was spent looking for xrays and drawing blood 60 -80hrs/week, while medical students in the US were admitting patients and responding to emergencies in the ICU 80hrs/week.
this is why they are comfortable with people practicing as consultants 3-4 years after finishing medical school (internal medicine, pathology, dermatology, opthalmology etc). their training is a lot more streamlined and immersive.
That’s one of the advantage of graduate school entry. The students are more matured and know what they getting themselves into.
How do you get a visa for US or are you on immigrant status to practise medicine in US
Allan Heng – american visa situation is very complex, expensive and painful – but worth it if you want to achieve your goals.
As a malaysian, your option to do training/work as a consultant in the US is a J1 or H1b visa. A H1b visa allows you to convert into a greencard directly at the end of training via employment sponsorship, or self sponsor anytime via the extraordinary ability pathway (EB1 or 2, if you qualify). If you win a greencard lottery or get married to a citizen, you can also convert over.
For J1 visa holders its abit more tricky, you have to either return to your home country for 2 years at the end of training (home residency requirement) or apply for a waiver job for 3 years in the US if you would like to stay. After the home residency requirement or waiver, you can then apply for a job who is willing to sponsor a greencard. Another way is to apply for a hardship waiver – if you qualify, you get a greencard directly.
hope this helps – this is an extremely simplified version. if u need more details there are plenty of other more specific forums that discuss this.
Hi sir! I find your blog amazingly informative and extremely helpful. Introducing myself, im one of the scholar student currently studying in Mansoura University, Egypt. Regarding turmoil rises in egypt, my parents started to worry about my safety and so my parents urge me to continue my clinical years in Egypt (transfer credit). I did apply for application form by kpt. Sadly i didnt get chance to study in ipta since there was only limited seats available. But i managed to get ipts,
you seem to know a lot about many stuff thats why i would like to ask for your advice and opinion on whats the best; 1. to go AUCMS or UTAR which one do you prefer? Or 2. Just stay here completing my another 2 years (current situation is stable-but-unpredictable dontknowwhatsgonnahappen)
Thanks in advance 🙂
*clinical years in Malaysia (transfer credit)
Are u on shcolarship? If yes, then those Khazanah owned IPTS will take u in without question. But if you are not… then u r free to choose any IPTS.
I don’t prefer any of the two. I would suggest you complete your 2 years there.
Just take the risk of the war in egypt bro..lol..just pray everything will be okay for at least 2 years..=p
Who is this Dr Jeyaindran? He said there was enough capacity.
“We have 9,500 medical postings and 10,000 available medical posts, so there is capacity.
http://www.nst.com.my/nation/general/ministry-reviewing-entry-qualifications-1.396547
Interesting, that they are talking about revising the minimum qualification guidelines. With the current standards in SPM and pre-Us, 5B and 3B/3.0 respectively is actually very very low. 5A and 3A/4.0 would be more in tune with 1st world standards.
Is Malaysia the only country in the world, where the Ministry of Health has to set minimum standards for the Ministry of Education?
In all other civilised countries I know, the educators (ie Med Schools) set the standards, and usually at a very high level.
Welcome to Bolehland!
If MMC is really keen on ‘improving the standard of healthcare in the country and the competency of doctors’, they should also de-recognise many doubtful Russian, Middle Eastern and Indonesian medical colleges. Also, monitor the local private medical colleges closely especially the new ones. Easiest is to adopt a list similar to our neighbouring country. That would be a start to bring back the glory of the Malaysian medical profession.
He is the deputy DG and also the head do Department of medicine of HKL.
Even if the figure is true, it will be fully occupied in just 2 years. Furthermore, if you read in between the lines, he did say that jobs are not guaranteed for all graduates.
my suggestion to future doctor is… set a goal.. which is, not to rely on your payslip as a doctor… the 1st 5 years, save enough money & invest it, be it property, gold/silver, business or stocks market… gain passive income from your investment, once you achieve financial independent (or financial freedom), then practicing as a doctor, is NOT “work” anymore, it’ll become “hobby” !! Remember, with your basic income of 4k, save 2k per month, you’ll accumulate 24k in 12 months… or 48k at the end of your housemanship !!
ahmad aidil, successful-housemanship.blogspot.com
Assuming you do not have a RM 300K debt when you graduate!
Apart from debt, unless your parents pay for your rent, car instalment, etc,etc.otherwise it is not so easy to save 2k.
if talking bout debt, there are good debt and bad debt.. its u who decide ur study debt becomes a good or a bad one.. don’t u have 300k house loan? is it good or bad debt ??
its hard saving 2k per month during HO time? i’ve done that, its do-able and its easy for those who dont have “internal” problem.. i rent a room (not a house), drive usual car (not fancy brand new), dont have tv/astro (only laptop & rm68 internet plan), dont go for movies/hangout w collegue every sat nite, eat nutritious food (not maggi) 3x/day… i can easily save 2k per month during HO time, and use that money to pay downpayment for a condo which give me nett 1k per month extra income (all during pity HO life)..
Main prob is : most doctor know SUPER little about money, trapped in the usual society mindset (doc must drive civic/bmw), stupid (sry to use this word) spending habit… you begin with failure, you’ll end up to be the biggest loser… like i said, its you who decide ur 300k study loan a good or bad one, i’ve made my study loan a good one, becoz it gave me a job as houseman with 4k salary, and i’m able to generate wealth using that salary, my 1st condo market value is double of my study loan in the 1st year of HO itself.
Come on guys, which profession (apart from business) gives u 4k as a fresh graduate?
Sound like ure too money minded.
what? being in debts is never good. I believe most doctors know WAY more about money than you do!! lmao…. . Don’t judge others before yourself.
While I admire your stringent spending habits to save money( I was like that when I was a houseman,trying to save money to buy a Proton car!) debts are debts. Your condo still does not belong to you as you have a loan there as well. It does not entire settle your education debt as it itself is a debt.
The starting salary for housemen can be Rm 4k but remember that for all other professions, they start their working life 2-3 years earlier. I know many from other profession who are already earning RM 4K by the time their friend start their horsemanship. If you are in JB, many engineers graduating from UTM go to Singapore to work. Their starting salary is SGD 3-4K which is almost RM 7-10K/month. Of course, this does not include a car !
An engineer, a local graduate who got a job at shell as an engineer at a younger age than when u started HO earns rm9k starting salary lolzz..true story.
lolz,
have friends working in Shell, as far as I know from them , their starting salary for fresh graduate (engineer) is around 3k, never heard that they get as high as 9k.
Hmmmm
Poor mo. It is true a shell engineer(not sure what kind of engineer, mechanical?chemical?etc?) earns rm8-10k. I also know one who got to go to texas and finland for job-related works. Sponsored of course, on his first or second year of work(i can’t remember). Rm9000 starting salary is normal for Shell engineer. Maybe your friend is a different type of engineer.
Mr.Poor MO, what Mr.lotz and Mr.yes meant was a case of one in a million. The fresh graduate engineer probably who earn 9K could be one of Shell’s croony’s son. Similarly, I heard a fresh graduate engineer do got higher salary than 9K in Petronas, through connection from a minister. It depends on what kind of cable you use, normal telephone cable or ‘fibre optic’ cable.
There are 15,200 engineering graduates and 23,600 accounting & finance graduates last year from loacal IPTS & IPTA and foreign universities who came back to work in Malaysia. Just use your commonsense how many percent of them got 9K for their starting pay without cable connection? I think Mr. ahmad aidil opinion and planning is more practical in life.
Lwjuan, you cant refer to 15 200 grads. Obviously most of these people cant get into shell or petronas. To get to shell, u have to get through lots of tapisan and interview. In the end, they bring in only like 5? Even mat salleh came for the job. Also, refering to thousands of engineering grads, not all are good grads. Same situation as doc. Pretty sure alot study engineering and got degree easily. Probably in private uni. No wonder engineers cant even work nowadays and even have to resort to work as cikgu ganti in school.
Rm9k starting with shell isnt surprising at all lolzzz…
too money minded? i’ll take it as money conscious. like it or not, medicine has evolve into money making business, healing people is not a main concern anymore, because doctor need to earn from the profession to make a living. (how many of u would like to serve the society without being paid?). can the poor afford private healthcare services then?
i’m not a qualified financial advisor, but as expected (as we all dont learn about money in school), our statement reflect the level of our financial education. if you take a portion of your time to learn about money, then you’ll see things (money, debt) differently. if practicing as a doctor is not our main source of income, healthcare will be much better. i’m malaysian & a doctor, never crossed in my mind to serve other people than malaysian yet (not saying working in SG is wrong, its just me). I’ve set a goal from the start which is not to make my profession (as a doctor) as my main source of income, so that one day i can serve malaysia with or without being paid. So investing wisely as early as i can i vital to achieve my goal (i’ve done it since HO time). its a mindset thing, theres not right or wrong in this, its up to you. since we’ all have medical degree & the situation in Malaysia is like this, i chose to live my early working life like this, for a better future of mine (delayed gratification).
Btw, if i choose to sell my 1st condo after completing HO, it can settle the condo loan itself (including lawyers & all fees related to it) AND my study loan, ENTIRELY, yes entirely (keep in mind, u dont know my condo market value & total amount of my study loan)… i’ll end up having NO debt at all… but since i think i can still maximize the profit, i decided not to sell it yet & to cont receive passive income from it while waiting for the right time to sell..
who say all debt is bad? debt can’t settle debt? its possible, we just have to learn it right (no one knows everything, right?)…
“we buy things we dont NEED, with the money we dont have, to impress people we dont know”… you decide what you want to believe, how you want to live your life… i never judge other people, just stating the fact that most doctors know very little about money including me as well. tq
I was a product of the IMU-Canada twinning program and I am now practicing in the US. I echo the comments in the above letter. Here is another perspective:
On top of medical school being graduate entry, admission into any Canadian medical school is fiercely competitive. Many Canadian students had applied multiple times before gaining entry, some with other graduate degrees. Those who fail to gain entry apply to and end up in medical schools elsewhere (Ireland, the UK, or the Carribean). As a result of this, the medical students there are mature, focused, and professional. Many of them are older, have children, and funded their education through loans, or worked prior jobs. Contrast this to the average IMU student, where (lets be honest here) entry is non competitive, whom their school fees are paid for by their parents, and having been through an education system where everything is spoonfed to them. We practically went through the ‘back door’ to gain entry into a Canadian medical school. It is no wonder that many did not do well. I don’t blame the Canadians having some resentment towards us.
Hi, I am a medical student from IMU-PMS currently thinking of whether to go dalhousie. May i know how were you able to practice in the US (usmle?) and how was your experience in canada? Any tips and advices on how to prepare before flying over?
It is indeed very sad to read the above negative comments concerning IMU students at Canadian universities, as a product from one of the pioneer batches of IMU-Dalhousie program, it came as a shame to me that the standard of current IMU students have deteriorated to an alarming level. I am pretty sure Dr Margaret Casey, Dr John Ruedy, and the late Dr Leo Peddle who put in so much effort to materialise the program would be deeply disappointed! The north american medical education system is very different from the UK commonwealth system in that they are looking for a mature self reliance and independent person to enter medicine regardless of whether you are from science or art background. Apart from basic requirement of a bachelor degree from whatever field and passing the MCAT exam, potential candidate need to attend an intensive interview and convince the interviewers that they are really enthusiastic in becoming a doctor, and hence most of them did some volunteer work at the local hospitals to get acquainted with their future job. It is too easy for IMU students to get in without going through what the locals did, and directly into their clinical years where they really function like a houseman in Malaysia. I still remembered the first day I started my 3rd year and I was put on call the same night, didn’t get any sleep at all after admitting a few patients throughout the night. However, with enough preparation and passion, there is nothing so tough that one couldn’t get through. I have lost count of the number of distinction s that I achieved during various rotations, not to mention the highest award in ENT during graduation ceremony. I still believe Canada produces very high quality medical graduates until today, thanks to their strictly regulated and limited number of medical schools. I did come back to Malaysia after I completed my studies because of lack of post graduate training opportunity for non Canadian, and able to pass the british MRCP(UK) even though trained the north american way!
That’s how a REAL medical school should be! Not shop lot medical schools like ours!
Hi, I am a medical student from IMU-PMS currently thinking of whether to go dalhousie. May i know how were you able to practice in the US (usmle?) and how was your experience in canada? Any tips and advices on how to prepare before flying over?
What is clearly annoying is that although MMA has recently stated publicly a number of times that there may not any more vacancies left in the public sector in the near future, MOH and MMC are clearly beating around the bush regarding this issue. MOH and MMC should take a firm stand with MMA too.
No point just ‘raising minimum qualifications’ as the damage HAS already BEEN done. Their current minimum qualifications of 5 B’s in SPM is a total joke especially with SPM getting much easier with time. All other countries in the world takes the best into their medical schools except MALAYSIA!
Bolehland ……mah
How much is the on-call fee/ on-call allowance per night for HO / MO in district hospital ?
Is this allowance the same no matter where you do on-call ?
How much is the on-call allowance at private hospital ?
Thanks
The rate for on-call allowance for public hospital is the same through out Malaysia depend on the type of the on-call. The on-call allowance at private hospital (specialist) is RM ZERO / hour.
Thanks for the reply
You say “….depend on the type of the on-call”.
What are they ? / How many kind/ type of on-call ?
..err..i thought patient have to pay each time doctor make a visit and do night round in private hospital,especially if out of routine (?oncall) infact nurses also get paid if they follow consultant doing round unless specified that free nurse call. And patient need to pay extra during weekend and public holiday. I remember this as my late father inlaw being admitted to one of KPJ chain for few weeks..and what an irony since my brother in law who happen to be a young private O&G(oil and gas) engineer paid the bills….can you elaborate or anybody about private specialist rate if being call?…
ps: my brother in law now works with Shell Miri with RM11k basic and he just reach 29yo…but its true that most of engineer being paid much less than that..
You are talking about consultant visit. It is not MO. Private hospitals do not have MOs seeing patients in the ward. Even for consultants, it is NOT on-call allowance. It is the fee we charge for seeing the patient, similar to what we charge during daytime.
The rates are controlled by the government and we can charge about 50% higher than the daytime rate.
However, NO extra charges can be made for surgeries/procedures.
I think some shell engineers, as well as others who working in oil and gas companies are earning much higher because they are paid allowances for their off-shore work. It is actually not really their basic pay. That mean they have to go and stay off-shore in the middle of the sea where life is tough and boring but are paid handsomely for allowances. My nephew once worked for Shell now with Haliburton. This is what I understand from him the last time I spoke to him. Correct me if I am wrong.
There is NO more on call allowance for HO as they are doing shift system now.
The on call allowance for all MOs are the same no matter where you are.
There is NO such thing as on-call allowance in private hospital as they do not employ HO or MO. They only employ MO to cover their emergency department.
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Dear Doctors….do u guys know that yr medical degrees are just like any of the other degrees. It is ONLY a first degree. With yr first degree you havebthe option to move on to do MBAs …..or Marketing…or any courses.
It is not carved on stone that you can only do specialisations in medical areas.
So it is not the end…..if u dont like to be s doctor….by all means branch off….its never too late.
Yes, of course but the “problem” is , they had spent RM 300-500K and 5 years to get that degree! That’s the reason why they should make an informed decision before doing medicine.
Dr Pag…
Would you be able to advise me anything on MRCPsych. I believe it is not recognised in Malaysia? Do u know of anyone iin Malaysia doing MRCPsych?
As i understand there is the Masters in Psychiatry offered by UKM.
My daughter, currently MO with government hospital is wondering if she could pursue MRCPsych alongside Masters in Psychiatry offered by UKM.
There is “sponsorship” issue..as MRCPsych requires overseas students to have sponsors (Training Lead & Head of Dept of Psychiatry of the training hospital) to sign sponsorship forms and evidence of practical trainings. Am i right to assume that this will be a problem as local Head of Dept cannot sign MRCPsych sponsorship forms. !
Many Thanks
MRCPsych is recognised by Malaysia but the exams are only conducted in UK. The college of Psychiatry of Academy of Medicine of Malsysia has started the program. Pls contact the college for further info.
Master’s in Psychiatry is conducted by UM, UKM, USM and if I am not mistaken by UPM and UiTM.
Dr Pag…
The Academy of Medicine does not seem to have a College of Psychiatry. I checked their website..and then called them…they said they dont have.
The NSR does state that MRCPsych is a recognised. My question is..if a MO in government service wants to do MRCPsych…will the Head of Departments be willing to sign the supervision and progress forms …a requirement by the Royal College of Psychiatrists, UK.
TQ
You need to contact the Royal College for further info. If not pls contact Dr Kadir, the Pengarah of Hospital Permai in JB.