In May 2011, for the first time in history, MMC came up with the minimum criteria and qualifications for entry into a medical programme. I wrote about it over here in June 2011. MMC had no choice but to introduce these criteria as there were just too many dubious foundation courses being conducted by various colleges to attract students. Unfortunately, I still felt that the criteria set was just too low. I am sure everyone knows that the standard of SPM has gone down the drain, compared to 10 years ago. Everyone seems to be scoring 10As etc. I have spoken to many who had A1 in English but could not even talk or write in proper English. Examples are aplenty in this blog comments.
Since then, MMC has amended it several times as you can see over here. One of the major amendments made last year was to allow A-level, STPM and few other well-known Pre-U courses to supersede your SPM results. Prior to that, Pre-U courses should be “in addition” to SPM results. The latest amendment was in July 2013 as seen over here. I don’t really see much changes compared to 2012 but few caught my eyes.
The last sentence in this circular clearly says that if you do not fulfil these criteria, you will NOT be allowed to sit for the MQE exams if you do medicine in an unrecognised university. In one way, this is a good start as I have seen many students with poor results who go on to do medicine in some unrecognised universities and come back to sit for MQE exams. Most of them do not pass the MQE anyway but given this new criteria, they would not even be able to sit for the exam!
Also, please be aware that you need a credit in BM & English to be able to apply for a civil service job. With the upcoming glut , I am sure you will be automatically excluded from civil service if you don’t fulfil this criteria. Previously, you can still get a job on contract basis as there were severe shortage. Once you pass the July BM paper, you can be absorbed into permanent service.
There were also rumours recently that MOH/MMC may introduce an exit exam after housemanship. I have not heard any confirmatory news about this but as far as I am concerned, it is inevitable. Can the government create almost 6000-8000 post yearly ? Obviously not. With the huge debt of the country and worsening economy, I am sure the government would not be able to absorb all these graduates, once the posts are full. I was informed that those who fail the exams will not be given a government job and those who pass borderline will be given job on contract basis. Only those who pass will be given permanent post in the government service. I felt that an entry exam would have been a better option, as suggested by our ex ex DG.
Furthermore, I am sure by then only those who fulfill the minimum criteria above will be even entitled for a government job despite having a recognised degree. The unrecognised degree will not even be sitting for the MQE if they do not fulfil the criteria.
Well, day by day, whatever I have been saying all these years is slowly becoming a reality. Who knows that some day, our smart politicians will ask private hospitals to take housemen with a pathetic salary……………….
Happy Malaysia Day…………….
Spm 2003 – 2a1, 1a2, 5b, 1c (science stream)
Stpm- 2b 1c 1d (science stream)- offered science of plant technology in UMSabah but chose to reject and took up
Biomed (hons) cgpa 2.90; MSU , shah alam
Currently clerkship in an unrecogisd uni
Reason: financial constrain
Objective : reach my ambition no matter what happe.
Am i eligible for meq,?
Hope you could give ur comment and i really appreaciate ur comment as u an expert in this field.
Thank you doc paga
Unfortunately, you don’t qualify. Even if you use your Biomed(hon) degree, your CGPA is below the minimum criteria.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
As you’d mentioned those who fail the exit exam will not be accepted in the gov service after HOship. So, in your opinion, what will actually happen on them? Influx of low quality MO into private hospitals or more GP clinics? Are they even allowed to open a clinic then?
Likely they will remove the compulsory service. This will enable you to start GP clinic or work in a private hospital emergency department. Of course, it will only creat more mess……….
Is tat even possible to allow a graduate who only completed HOship for 2yr and failed the exit exam into the private market? I mean they will not be having a proper APC. Seriously, who are they? If they failed the exit exam, nobody is gonna take them into service. For it be gov or private
What happen to those goverment sponsored students who fail the exit exam? How are they going to settle their scholarship with government?
If their contract says that you will be bonded with the government than the government must provide a job. Generally, JPA scholars got no major issues.
Ken, the scholarship is valid till end of their studies i think. They have duration of sponsorship n they have to inform the gov when their studies will expire aka no more allowance.. The only thing remaining is they want u to serve the gov for 10 yrs.
I don’t think so they can open GP clinic or work in private ED because they are not getting full recognition therefore no APC for these group of HO.
They might remove the compulsory service and the exam may be just for civil service.
dr..how about mara scholars?.
on what issue?
u said earlier that JPA scholars got no major issues as gov will provide them with a job..so how about mara scholars?
I believe if those government sponsored students who fail the exit exam will not be given a job, even though they are bonded for 10 years. They may be released without paying the bond. Just wonder whether this is considered as lucky ( no need to serve the 10 yrs bond) or unlucky (where and how to find a job?) for them?
u said earlier that JPA scholars got no major issues as gov will provide them with a job..so how about mara scholars?
MARA scholars are not bonded as it is a loan. Thus government has no obligation to provide a job. However, since you are still a government funded student, priority will be given, i presume.
Is tat even possible to allow a graduate who only completed HOship for 2yr and failed the exit exam into the private market? I mean they will not be having a proper APC. Seriously, who are they? If they failed the exit exam, nobody is gonna take them into service. For it be gov or private
Yup, you are absolutely correct
Current UKM grad will start their HOship in October 2013 ..5 months delay from previous batch.UKM intake normally would be in May/Jun followed by UM,USM n others local Uni.
The time had come…..
Hw u know they will start in oct 2013 and not even later?
UKM delayed due to administrative glitch and gov red tape. Others local Uni grads including UM and UPM had already started as planned.
currently i am in htaa,kuantan, mo medical. we have been having shortage of mo for quite sometimes. many things we do, even tellingour pengarah, untill now , still no mo yet to come. only 13 mos doing call, for big htaa with the subspecialities..
i heard other department at htaa also having same problem. then , i wonder, where does all the doctors becoming mo produced every week gone, what.s the best place to learn if not at tertiary hospital.. why still got shortage, and no body do anything.
Based on the rules and regulation issued 2 years ago, all those who finish housemanship will be transferred out of the hospital. That is the reason why some GH will have shortage of MOs. furthermore, some would have left to Master’s program mid year. Eventually it will be filled up. Please also make note that some of the post might still be filled by MOs who are on leave, maternity leave and unpaid leave. As long as the post is filled on paper, no new MOs can come in.
Some HO and MO posts in Pahang are loaned to other states. There are still some hospitals who retained their MO’s. However, JKN Pahang are trying to fill up the district hospitals first. They were telling the recent MO’s who transferred to Pahang that HTAA and Temerloh is full, while sending them to Jengka, Jerantut for their pioneer “cluster programme” started by Hosp Temerloh (The very same hosp who started the shift system) This “cluster programme” involves the expansion of the coverage of each department from Hospital Temerloh to Jengka and Jerantut, encouraging MO’s to stay in district hospitals as they will have exchange programme to train the MO’s in Temerloh hospitals in respective department while MO’s from respective dept in Temerloh have to sent their MO’s to have a short stint in the district hospitals. However it is very early in the progress and the framework keeps changing every now and then.
Dr Paga,
I fully agree with you on the fact that the current minimum requirement to enter some of the private medical schools are incredibly low. The issue is that there are too many medical schools sprouting up in the past few years as many schools are trying to have as many intake possible to meet the 100 per batch to stay afloat. Recently a couple of days ago there was a lot of writeup on the increasing cost of health care in private hospital and that there are too few public hospitals for the ordinary people. IT was said that the health ministry will look look at increasing the next years budget to build more public hospitals which i think has been overdue for a long long time. If this happens, i suppose it will help to reduce some of the issues not able to handle the huge number number of houseman attachments in the coming years. I really do hope this will happen.
I wanted to ask one more question about recognised medical degrees by MMC. I wonder why MMC has yet to recognise medical degrees from premier universities like Imperial College, Kings College London and University College London when these universities are listed as part of JPA targeted universities ? Are there any reasons? It would be great if you could shed some light as i have written to MMC but so far there has been no reply.
Ya see how long they take to build the Shah Alam hospital?
Shah Alam hospital has become a disaster because the govt gave the contract to a crony company owned by members of the Selangor royal family, who then took the money without completing the job. This is what happens when you don’t have open tenders and award projects to the most qualified companies. The NEP was not designed to make royal families even more rich.
From 2010:
http://archive.freemalaysiatoday.com/fmt-english/news/general/7176-shah-alam-hospital-saga-takes-an-ali-baba-twist-
http://ikhlasmalaysia.blogspot.co.nz/2010/11/shah-alam-hospital-scandal-letter-to.html
http://www.malaysia-today.net/mtcolumns/35856-what-the-newspapers-did-not-report-and-the-macc-is-hiding-part-1
From 2012:
http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=38841:shah-alam-hospital-delayed-yet-again&Itemid=2#axzz2f5jp4FWd
Building hospital is not going to solve any problems. You need consultants in these hospitals. Only then they can take housemen. Secondly, it is not an issue of not enough public hospitals but the issue of private-public integration. If you include all the number of beds in this country, we have enough but there are always maldistribution between rural and urban as well as between public and private.
As for you last question, you need to ask MMC as every medical council have their right to accreditation any medical schools.
Dear Potential medical student,
Imperial College London, King’s College London and UCL are recognised. Probably under the umbrella of “University of London” if I remembered correctly.
Queen.
The 3 University of London based Med schools have always been recognised. St Mary’s was formerly under UoL is now under Imperial College London, which is separate from UoL.
As far as I know, MMC/JPA only recognise degree awardwd by University of London, a federal university which includes member colleges like UCL, King’s, LBS, LSE, Queen Mary, St George’s, etc. Imperial was a member but left in 2007 and that’s why it’s not recognised by MMC/JPA.
I think an exit exam set REALLY INDEPENDENTLY by MMC is a good idea, and there to be no interference nor pressure from any powers-that-be in this exam.
BUT is MMC really independent in the first place?
Definitely there will be political interference. For those who fail, they will use whatever reason to argue including discrimination based on race or skin colour
Medical degree – dream or nightmare
http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2013/09/12/medical-degree-a-dream-or-nightmare/
Dear Dr Pagal,
Some have labelled you for being so “thick skin, hard headed and pessimist”. Well, most of your predictions are coming true. Malaysians, especially those in the health care sector owe you a BIG favour.
Please wake up future doctor-wannabes, do not say that you have not been told. Thank you.
Truth hurts. When I tell people the hard reality and truth, they feel I am talking non sense. People always want to hear only good stuffs.
i dont care..stuff on the internet can be true or false..read and believe if you want..the intellect level of a person is judged by entertaining all thoughts but not necessarily accept it all..but as far as now i think he give me enough information to learn the truth..i read this blog everyday now..=p with the lack of information we as students have and all kinds of people in the country try to con us,taking away all our money,we are really having a hard time deciding things for ourselves..fear and worry all the time..we need more details,and dr paga have that,without asking from us anything
Everything that has been said in these blogs is a foresighted picture of the state of mess our country is headed especially in terms of medical education and the lack of proper place our future smart students will face. It is a sorry state created by incompetent short sighted policy makers which is quite difficult to reverse at this stage. Smart and intelligent thinkers are not valued in many societies thus creating such problems. For Dr.Pagal to speak out regularly despite his busy schedule is a gift and knowledge of reality for all. He has been a really great senior to us during med school and till now and always. Good job!
Dr.Prakash
Fees for local medical schools
http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2013/09/13/exorbitant-fees-for-medical-studies/
Same programme that cost RM150,000 in Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia (UKM) is being offered at RM338,000 in AUCMS?
Sorry to intervene. Unless I am an old Jakun, but UKM college fees is RM200+k without subsidy. But we ware paying only RM9000 for college fees alone for the whole course. Plus plus accommodation and misc, should be RM15k not RM150k. 😛
Money money money……….
This UKM degree is franchise from UKM. The students I believe not trained in HUKM. The degree is only recognized by Malaysia unlike the original UKM medical degree which is recognized by Singapore. UKM just selling their rubber stamp
That article erred in 2 areas. The first is that the UKM programme actually just cost about RM20K for 5 years. There is of course a subsidy, and the actual cost of the programme in the offer letter I think is about RM130K.
The second is, the writer is barking up the wrong tree. It’s not the Ministry of Health that is involved here, but the Ministry of Education (previously Higher Education). Even the MMC is a mere pawn, being ordered to give blanket approvel to the degrees awarded. If the members of the MMC refused to, the Chairman of the MMC has the right to unilaterally do so, and the previous Chairman did exactly that.
dr paga, what is going to be your comment on the egyptian students.they’re now asked to be minus 2 years in their current study year if they want to continue their studies in malaysia..i think this sucks..so if their in 6th year,now its 4th year all over again..and the juniors get the worse,now they have to go back and as a result faces the glutton of doctors in 2015/2016..and local universities also have a hard time making a place for them,and probably some sit for the private uni..the goverment should do something about this..with the halt of egyptian students graduate by this year they should create ‘extra’ seats in malaysia..
MMC has come up with a guideline regarding this transfer over here
Most of these students in Egypt are government sponsored students and thus the sponsors will try to get a place for them in local universities. However, it is up to the respective universities to decide on which year the student will be enrolled as the curriculum are different. We cannot say that Year 3 in Egypt is equivalent with Year 3 in MOnash for example.
The MMC guideline says that you can’t accept them into clinical years.
thanks for clearing that up doctor..
but i just check that up but apparently mmc has change this now..clinical years can get transfered with minus 2 years in their current study year..this is according to the recent meeting..
private med colleges not having enough lecturer. still planning to take mo
re students and trainng hospital is kind of full with their own regular students
Welcome to Bolehland
doctor, what is the job preceptive for mbbs graduates in 2015 and 2016
should still be OK but will be tight
egypt’s medical curriculum differs a lot with our local medical curriculum hence the order of minus 2 years. the extra seats for egypt’s students might cost their future in the end… think carefully
i still think those guys should complete their studies in egypt and take the risk of safety..alexandria university,al-azhar ..is recognized everywhere even in the u.s.a..my friend has 1 year left..another friend has 2 years left..the violence in egypt is sometimes out of control..its a war zone..even before all the wars egyptians are like always fighting on the street,street fights happening a lot..it gets dangerous especially for girls..there are already case of girls there being raped/molested by egyptian(long time ago)..also guys being attacked with knives or robbed..i can say that a lot of egyptians are crazy..students there are always in caution when they walk at night,girls always accompanied by guys when they go out..with the conflict now i believe their safety situation is gonna get worse..sigh..its hard because theres no police to protect us foreigners,and the army is crap,so who can we entrusted to preserve the peace?..=p
For US, everyone need to sit for USMLE exams
It is interesting that we keep on battling with spm and pre-u course results rather than talking about medical school degree as the key to the job application.
Being a graduate of a canadian medical school, and currently a surgeon in north America, I have not had the college/medical council in canada, Australia asking for my spm or stpm results. It just seem inherently wrong that we need to go back to the spm and stpm level if we could graduate from medical school. This just means that there are many dubious medical school out there that we have to keep tab on the basic qualifications.
I heard last time malaysia send students to canada medic course of 3 yrs? Is such thing even possible? Alot of things going on that time.
yes, there are still canadian medical schools with 3 year curriculum. These are the medical schools with the exact same core hours curriculum with the rest of the medical schools in north america. They did it by cutting down the vacation time to just about 3 weeks in total each year. Their graduate is on par with any of the graduate in other NA schools and in canada. Canadian grads do need to sit for mccqe part 1 after medical school, a test that assesses the competence of candidates who have obtained their medical degree, for entry into supervised clinical practice in postgraduate training programs. After 1 year of PG training, we are required to sit for part 2. Completion of part 1 and part 2 are required for candidates to gain independence practice license on top of the postgraduate training program college exam.
Yes, you are right. MMC can’t control the medical schools as it is all linked to politicians . Thus they got no choice but to implement entry criteria which is very low anyway
Hi doctor i have been reading your blog for some time and i really felt that this blog should actually be promoted in secondary school to reduce the view that science student should pursuit medicine.
In fact, a lot of my friends who are currently taking the government scholarship actually felt that it is a “waste” to not take up medicine since it is fully paid by the government and it is the most expensive course to take privately in this country.
I am currently a medical student and i am really afraid of not able to get a job in the future by looking at the ridiculous amount of med schools now and the effort by the government to “promote” medicine among scholars.
Doctor i am curious about the pathway to be a specialist and i hope that you are able to clarify me in few ways. Some of my questions may already be in your blog but i just want to know whether has there been any changes over the time. First, after a 5 years MBBS course i know that there will be a compulsory service of 2 years in government hospital. But after that 2 years, what path would a fresh graduate actually take? Other than that, how does one actually pursuit a specialty? Thanks for the help doctor and i will be looking forward for your new post!
People are still living in their dreamland. They got no idea about any job but they will do it just because they got a good result. Successful people are people who do what they are interested in.
After graduation is 2 years housemanship after which there is another 2 years compulsory service. It is 4 years compulsory service.
Please visit my “for future doctors” page above and read the topics regarding postgraduate education and subspeciality. Nothing has changed so far.
Thanks for the information dr. Btw, I would like to know is that Aimst University is the best private University to do MBBS? Is it recognised by government? What are the demanding fields for doctors by 2020? Thanks in advance.
Minister of Health predicted that 11,000 doctors will become jobless in 2018 and few weeks ago in a Medical Education Conference in UiTM, the panelists predicted that it will happen in 2017. Me myself as a medical educationist in a local medical school predict that it will happen in 2015. Even there was a school who invited me for career talk just to discourage Form 5 to take medicine.
Earlier this year, 6000 fresh graduates but only 2000 HO post. Total HO post in the country is about 10,000 while MO post are 17,000 with clinical specialist post (excluding in universities) are only 3000 posts.The 10,000 HO posts cover for 2 years, meaning only 5000 effective posts per year. Most of the vacancies are for Sabah, Sarawak, Kelantan and Terengganu.
More doctors are needed to reach ratio of 1:400-600 but JPA (Gov) have no money to pay the salary due to time-based promotion (all Drs will be promoted automatically). Hence the doctor unemployment issue.
Some private universities has closed shop and some try to survive by closing some of their franchise programmes. And soon the private medical schools will have to merge in order to survive.
FYI, number of applicants for this year intake has reduced tremendously and making medical not the no 1 choice.
My advice for current doctors, please equip yourself with extra skills especially soft skills (certified) as you will be assessed during interviews for MO posts soon.
For in-training medical students, please study hard and dont play play. See LOTS of patients in the wards…not books.
For future medical students (not future doctors), think hard before joining our fraternity. It wont be easy. I have been jobless before and trust me, it is hard life.
For parents, please let your children decide their own future. dont gamble your children’s life for the sake that you want a doctor in the family. It is easy for me to say but, it is difficult for me to decide between two candidates during interviews that one wants to be a doctor because he wants to help people VS the one that want to be doctor because the father/mother/grandfather/grandmother/uncle/auntie wanted them to be a doctor.
For graduates and current students in unrecognized universities, sorry to say that your future is not as bright as before. Some big local universities refused to conduct MQE exams due to bad quality of candidates despite the training given. You might need to choose a different path.
FYI, the cost for medical course in local universities is about rm45k-rm55k/year meaning that private medical schools need to charge above rm300k/course and up to rm1 million (Perdana University).
Lastly TQ to Dr Pagalavan for this blog.
Good luck to all!
Minister of health or MInistry of health?
the previous minister of health
CSL you meAn
Hi Dr Nurman
Would like to ask DR….what does it mean by the number of applicants have reduced?
Does it mean application into medical school for the best big three local medical schools(UM,UKM,USM) OR applications for private medical schools
And would like to ask…why people here always talk about UKM medical school?
Is it really the best?or just because its big like UM and USM
Thanks
Hi Dr Nurman
Would like to ask….what does it mean by the number of applicants have reduced?
Does it mean application into medical school for the best big three local medical schools(UM,UKM,USM) OR applications for private medical schools
And would like to ask…why people here always talk about UKM medical school?
Is it really the best?or just because its big like UM and USM
Thanks
Hi Dr Nurman
Would like to ask….what does it mean by the number of applicants have reduced?
Does it mean application into medical school for the best big three local medical schools(UM,UKM,USM) OR applications for private medical schools
And would like to ask…why people here always talk about UKM medical school?
Is it really the best?or just because its big like UM and USM
Thanks
Hi Dr Nurman
Would like to ask DR….what does it mean by the number of applicants have reduced?
Does it mean application into medical school for the best big three local medical schools(UM,UKM,USM) OR applications for private medical schools
And would like to ask…why people here always talk about UKM medical school?
Is it really the best?or just because its big like UM and USM
Thanks
UPU applicants for medical as first choice has reduced.
When I apply for medicine long time ago, all my choices are medic. Nowadays the applicants mixed medicine with dentistry and even engineering courses, hence they are not really want to do medicine.
Not really sure why people talking about UKM. For me, all RU are similar. All depends on the individual.
The best medical schools are always the established ones.
This is the common problem with our education system and school leavers. Then don’t know what they are interested in. They will just apply for anything that their result may qualify. Only after they enter or graduate they realize that they had just wasted their time studying the course.
Even the number of medical students taken by RU has reduced in 2013 in anticipation of oversupply. UPM has taken only 101 students this year as compared to 120-140 students in previous years.
The public university might reduce but not the private university. Almost all the students I met received offers from atleast 2-3 universities to do medicine. Most private universities will need atleast 130-150 students to make profit
Which private medical schools are closing down?
doctor how about CUCMS?
IF I am not mistaken, MMC still have not recognised them completely due to some issued in 2011 as I have written before. From the latest MMC list, it is yet to be recognised.
Yes , which IPTS is or are or a about to cease operation?Dont have to name them word for word per se just syonym will do.
This way prospective students may know of the options available to them from hereon!
I am not aware of any impending closure of any med school. The only one that had closed was the Perak/Sheffield one, and that was some time ago.
I think the only way they will close or merge is if the MOE force them to.
However, it is possible that in 5 years time, when surplus and joblessness is a reality, market forces (low enrollment) will come in to force mergers. The only problem is, closures and mergers will not solve the problem of mal-selection of students. It will still be richest students instead of the best students.
The Perak/Sheffield did not really close down. They collaborated with UM and their graduates were equivalent to UM graduates. Now, its known as UniKL-RCMP with their own degree.
They did ‘close’. However, since there are students at various stages of their training, the govt asked (forced) UM to agree to award the UM MBBS to them. The moment the last batch of students finished, UM made the exit. UniKL was then asked to ‘award’ the degree, but why is it that nobody thinks it is strange that a uni like UniKL with no medical programme of its own is awarding a medical degree?
Yup, close down they did, because of the ringgit crash in 1997/98. Government was forced to bail them out. The govt asked Sheffield to allow the sponsored (i.e. Bumi) students to continue in Sheffield. Non-sponsored students were not allowed to (no space to absorb all) and joined either IMU or PMC. Once the dust had settled, Perak state govt bought it over and the UM deal was put in place, much to UM’s annoyance. The Perak state govt then did a deal with UniKL, which now owns the university. By the way, UniKL is proudly owned by MARA, and many of MARA’s policies are implemented there.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I’m going to start my housemanship soon. In my offer letter, I am asked to choose between kwsp and pension scheme . I wonder which is a better choice. For your information, I will be bonded for 10 years.
It’s going to be tough to decide so early, used to only need to decide after 10 years of service. Generally, if you can see yourself working your whole life with the govt service, then choose pension. If you think there is a significant chance you will leave before retirement choose KWSP. Even if you work till one day before you retire, and you resign, you loose all pensions.
to HO-to-be
1)from which university you graduated
2)when are you going to start your housemanship
3)how many post for housemanship left in the government hospital
Thanks
Why so early to choose? You only need to chose once you apply for confirmation of service unless things has changed.
If you decide to work till retirement in government, then take pension. If not take KWSP.
Thank you for the reply. Actually it is stated in the offer letter, to choose between kwsp and pension before confirmation of service (sebelum disahkan dlm perkhidmatan). That’s why i’m in a dilemma on which is a better choice.
Dr, do you have any idea what’s the future of private practice given that there are many graduates now and there will be more in the future?
I have read your post on postgraduate training. I wonder if the gazettement for MRCP part 3 can be done in private hospital or it is a must to be done in gov hospital? and continue with subspecialty in gov hosp too ?
thank you.
Private practice will be saturated by then and the income of each doctors may not be much of a difference compared to government sector.
You can’t do your gazettement in private hospital. Same goes to subspeciality training.
to HO-to-be
1)from which university you graduated
2)when are you going to start your housemanship
3)how many post for housemanship left in the government hospital
Thanks
[…] number of medical colleges per-capita population in the world. MMC was forced to come up with a guideline to prevent these colleges to take unqualified students but the criteria introduced is just too low. […]
Hello sir,
I’d like to start of by commending you on your blog.. It has opened my eyes in the light of the harsh realities that are being faced by doctors & premed students. I am a student & am considering applying for med school next year, I’ve had my mind set on it for many many years now and it’s only in the last lap of my alevels now that I’m starting to doubt the profession as a whole. I plan on furthering in the line of medicine abroad (if all goes well) and am very very keen about Doctors without Borders. However I do have a question.. I’ve been doing well for my alevels lately and hope to achieve the AAA that is required by the university I’m applying to, however, I have missed out on the mark of the “all Bs in your science subject” for spm. It was one paper that I got a C in instead. Would this casualty limit my chances of getting in? Will I get in at all?? What are your thoughts of applying to med school abroad? Is the situation the same abroad (say the UK) as it is here?? Thank you so much, hope you’re well & take care. 🙂
Regards
“A” level supersedes SPM results based on latest MMC guideline.
Almost all developed countries are facing possible oversupply of doctors but countries like UK, Australia etc controls the number of graduates with the number of internship post. Preference will be given to their citizens.
I know many who talk about “doctors without borders” when they were students but none actually did it!! You will know why once you graduate!
The SPM requirement is still required for those who use Foundation, Matriculation or Pre-Med pathways.
I find potential Malaysian students have now been do ‘numbed down’ by the Malaysian model of ‘everybody can be a doctor’, that they think it is the same when applying to 1st world countries. They will have a shock when they realise how difficult it is to apply to UK/Australia/Singapore, and the very high requirements and elaborate application process needed. Having AAA will NOT guarantee a place. In fact, A-level results are not important for UK, they use the personal statement, UKCAT/BMAT exam results and interview outcome to decide. Almost everybody with a conditional offer will exceed the usual conditions of A*AA/AAA. If you have no offer, you will not get in even with a final 4A*. On average, the number of applicants per Med school is 10 times the available places. Normally a maximum of 5-10% of places is allowed for international students
Hi Sir, I am ENT specialist , from Egypt, I seek a Ph.D. scholarship ot job opportunity in Malasyia, can u support me with further information about this track ? from where to start my search ? Thank u in advance.
You can try the University Hospitals : University Malaya Medical Centre, Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia hospital or University Science Malaysia Hospital
[…] Health Minister recently spoke on this issue and have recommended that the entry qualifications into medical school to be reviewed. He admits that we are reaching the doctor: population ratio of […]
[…] a common entry exam (MMLE) for ALL medical graduates. At the moment, they will only enforce the minimum entry qualifications as per MMC guideline. It is very likely that those who DO NOT have the minimum entry qualifications after 2011 will not be […]
No use talking about reviewing the MINIMUM CRITERIA & QUALIFICATIONS FOR ENTRY INTO A MEDICAL PROGRAMME when they can’t even follow it. True facts: I have know MANY medical students who enroll into an overseas medical school with a “failed miserably” SPM result and a lousy and non international qualified pre-U studies called “foundation in science/pre-med course”.
Yes, I had written about it many times. That’s the reason why MMC based the Minimum criteria on SPM results!
I think “overseas medical degrees” need a new definition. Previously, “overseas” meant UK, Australia, USA, Canada and NZ”.
Now, Russia, Easter European countries, Egypt, Jordan, Indonesia, while technically “overseas”, are not quite “overseas” in the traditional sense. For a start, entry requirements are as different as day and night.
[…] from students who are doing medicine elsewhere without the minimum requirement introduced by MMC in 2011. It is very sad that our society is still a very ignorant society. Some of them are not even aware […]
Dear Doctor Pagalavan, Im a third medical student studying in IMU.i got into IMU with a minimum requirement of bbc for alevels.After seeing your post and the link to the mmc minimum requirement page, i noticed their minimum requirement by mmc was BBB,ABC, and AAC for alevels.Im currently worried whether ill be even considered a job in Malaysia?Will i not be able to apply for housemanship in Malaysia?
Difficult to say but did you university get approval from MMC for your entry?
It has always been exciti,at the same time scary too to read your blog. I’m a HO who is about to finish my HOship soon and i graduated frm a pvt uni in msia.i havr heard so much bout how unqualified and less knowledgable are some grads from russia ukraine indonesia etc since my med school. I was skeptical bout all those ‘allegations’.. But then when i started working..then i realised that fact. I’m not saying ALL of them are less knowledgable..but…many of them are. I’m not showing off that im smart or what..but.frankly i’m very mediocre in my med school n felt i hv so much more to learn n i always hv the inferiority complex..but when i start working and having discussions with them..there are so much lack of basic knowledge..whats more pathophysiology of disease or anatomy. I literally got a shock! So manyof them! Some of them get extended in a posting and everyone else will start cursing the HOD for extending evn the most deserving one! And MANY more jus sail through all the postings with below bare minimum knowledge! The whole malaysia say mostly ukraine or russian grads r like tat.but even MARA sponsored students and some JPA students are just the same! There is so much of flaws in every single level of this whole medical line.it will take a million years if we want to correct it…im frustrated!!!
Our system is flawed. This is what I am trying to say in my blog since it started. A mediocre student can go to a mediocre medical school and still finish his housemanship without any basic knowledge!! This is because most HODs do not want to take any action. They do not want to write reports. Thus, the mediocre ones are released to the community.
I thought yesterday’s revelations were bad, this is now a new low.
It seems the stars are in alignment!
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/the-death-of-common-sense
Hi Dr Paga,
I had retake my A levels and obtained the same grade as previous which is BCC for 3 science subjects. Obviously, Im definitely not qualify for any Medicine Course. ( But, some of my classmates who got worse results than me, they went India or Indonesia which actually accept their grades. ) I don’t wanna choose that way to be a doctor. I don’t think that I need to be that ‘ rush ‘ to get in any medical school without consideration of the quality and the future clinical exposure that I could get. Furthermore, with these grades, clearly show that Im not ready to take a tougher course. In the other sphere, which is my parents’ position, they want me to graduate quickly and get employ quickly ( I think most parents have the same mindset for their children ) So, after the retake and with these grades, I was scolded badly by them as they think that I had wasted my time.
So, I started to doubt myself. If I could know what’s wrong with me…..
I was the top 3 during primary, top 10 in secondary and ‘Doctor’ is always the first one on list of my ambition card ( which teacher will let us fill in ). I have 2 aunties who graduated from university which is top 10 in the world. The information that I got from them since young is always that Im going for the best of the best. I never thought of the problem that actually happening, I took everything for granted. My father decides mostly everything for me. He sent me to a private school that every of my primary classmates envy. Im truly ashamed that I had the mind that I will get the best’ EVERY TIME ‘. After getting 8 As in PMR, I started to get lazy in study…Im someone who study a little and will get grade B and above ( I think it’s because of the good foundation i got since young. I went to nursery when I was 2and my mum said that I knew add, subtracts till 1000 by the age of 3. ) And the nightmare begins, I slacked in my academic performance, but I didn’t get any ‘warning’ from my parents. I think it’s because I didn’t go for any tuition and they might think not to be too harsh on me. Finally, I got 6 As in SPM and the lightening storm stroke on me. My parents were very very angry, but I still got to study A levels. But the cyst in me is that my ATTITUDE is wrong. And then it ends up me writing here.
I can tell that I want to be a doctor not because of what my parents want me to do, not because of drama, not because of glamorous etc. Im truly passion and interest in it. But, Im not serious and not responsible to myself. Ok, Im awake as I had talked to some advisor and my parents as this time they tell me that they will not support me anymore unless Im serious enough. I feel that this is really an issue this time.
So now, I need more advices. Im currently intend to take a degree in science ( maybe from Monash ) and with that I go for an graduate- entry MBBS. Im sure that I would be more mature by that time to take my future seriously. Total duration of study will be 7 years. To me, Im not thinking that Im losing out because of the extra years as I think that I will have a better background in research and lab work. That’s what I THINK. For my parents, they wanna me to go for foundation which actually there’s quite a number of foundation programme from the particular university.
In your opinion, am I taking the right pathway ? or once again I have made the wrong decision ( My parents insisted that I go for foundation after SPM, but I took A levels due to my stubbornness. )
Sorry for writing too much of irrelevant thing, hope i could get a solid advice from you.
The other reason that I’m lost of direction now is, I got really stupid advice from a doctor few months ago. He asked me to do plastic surgery for cosmetic which can earn a lot, he said that the doctors now are mainly jobless and lots of negative mind set. I know that I shouldn’t be influence by a person who is so obvious that he only cares about materialistic, but for someone at a cross road like me, I really got shocked that he nearly described medicine to a dark future choice.
In a nutshell based on current regulations if i am not mistaken, mmc will consider first attempt at matriculation/a- level in order to consider into medicine. Another ruling is the time taken after spm cannot be more than certain number of years ( which i think 2/3 yrs after spm) hence multiple alevel/matriculation attempts will be futile for medicine. I may sound harsh but i need to tell u the real truth. Do something else. Dont waste ur time.
I appreciate your comment, it’s much more better than those agent that I approached.
Now, Im considering taking Bachelor of Science. Then, I pursue for Postgraduate Medicine. That’s my Plan at the moment.
Or do you have any other suggestion of the pathway towards medicine ?
Anything but medicine
Ask yourself what u wanna be a doctor? Cut the BS of “passion to save life etc” I dont now what mades medicine is so appealing to many hence if u haven’t read the misconception of being a doctor do give a shot.
Medicine is not for any Tom Dick and Harry.
However, If you persistent go on because we only have one life to live on. Saying it’s absolutely no no to you may be disheartening and I do believe people have chance to redeem themselves because speaking of human who don’t have a black spot of their past. Make sure you got the right grade for your Bsc and choose the established med school.
What’s make me wanna be doctor ??
I enjoy. I went for an attachment in a clinic in neighbourhood. Although it’s just registration work, taking patient BP & temperature. But I enjoy even though I stand whole day. Compare to other job that I worked before which is more comfortable, I really enjoy .
There was an old lady who coughed really badly, the children just left her at the clinic, RN bring her to breath in some oxygen to soothe her difficulty in breathing. I stood next to her, and she asked :” Do you think that Im going to die ? ” That night, I felt ashamed for myself being too naive.As since my grandpa passed away, my father told me it’s a circle of life, flower bloom, flower wilt.I thought death is a common thing since then. I learned more than what I expected.
whenever I saw someone hurt or bleeding, I will rush over to carry out first aid.
I couldn’t tell you any specific reason why I want to be doctor. But, im just attracted to it to life…All this while, im observing to learn how to be a good one. Im prepared to serve and dedicate. It’s just the academic part, I have to buck up first !
No, what you really want is to be a nurse. That will satisfy all the reasons stated for wanting to be a doctor. So what’s stopping you?
Na, if medicine is your passion, go ahead. i believe you have the minimum requirement from SPM.
check this website to see the minimum requirement for spm
http://mmc.gov.my/v1/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=111&Itemid=161
if you really plan to end up in medicine, i dont recommend going for bachelor degree then to graduate med school. if it is not required, why bother spending extra years (and extra money) and end up in the same place with other people? unless you want to apply to us medical school or john hopkins perdana university.
from the mmc website , there is also a list of approved foundation program. i would recommend you to go foundation program, spend one year and prove your parents you can do it, then apply to the listed approved medical school. you just need to work hard in med school, and keep in touch with friends who studying in local uni to get their notes on things that u dont cover.
I dont quite agree to choose the dubious foundation because it’s definitely not a real yardstick to gauge your ability and readiness since you already attempted A level twice.
Do the other degree first and by the time you finished contemplate again if medicine is what you really want. Worst comes to worst u already have a degree.
it’s just one of other options.. there are definitely other good foundation program than A level like australian matriculation/ sam/ cimp .. not those any other foundation from xyz uni.
if you still cant make the standard requirement, then definitely u know that medicine is not for you..
With a grade of BBC, you will never be admitted into a British medical school. minimum results now is 3As with at least 1A*. That is one of the conditional offers my friend received from Birmingham university.
But there are other routes such as a graduate entry programme provided you do very well in it such a a first class distinction.
It is entirely up to you. You seem to be matured and know what you are doing. Not many will take the longer route. Just ask your self what you want to do. Just because you were top student in school does not mean you need to do medicine. Please read all my blog post and see what medicine is all about.
[…] into medical course, there were many who accused me otherwise. The SPM minimum requirement is from MMC and not by me! I believe that it was the SPM result that I posted in the article that attracted […]
[…] with this “top scoring” rate of our students and the MMC’s minimum entry requirement , how many students do you think would be eligible to enter medical school ? We should be filled […]
I knew that one of the minimum criteria is applicant shall be required to sit for aptitude test and/or interview and/or university entry exam,what if I don’t any one of this but fulfilled other criteria(s)? Should I go to that university ? I think is abit risky,what do you think Dr.?
That depends on the university. It is only a suggestion given by MMC.
[…] They will never make profit or even get their return of investment. Since the introduction of the MMC’s minimum entry requirement in 2011, the number of students enrolled into private medical schools had reduced drastically over the last […]
[…] the government issued a moratorium for new medical schools. At the same time, MMC came up with the Minimum Entry Criteria. While I disagree that SPM should be used as the main criteria, MMC had no choice as in the name of […]
Hi sir. I hope you can reply to my comment. What if i did not do well in spm but i did quite well in my pre u program like a levels, can i be recognized by MMC to sit for the exam? Or are all my chances of becoming a doctor gone? Thanks for reading.
Please read the guidelines. Some pre-U course can supersede SPM
Please refer to this MMC guideline on minimum SPM results in order to get into medicine in Malaysia
Click to access Min_Entry_Requirement_adopted_30.7.2013.pdf
We had in the past rejected a candidate who score >3.5 in their pre-U due to poor SPM results. And each institution will have their own minimum entry requirement for SPM and matrix/stpm/pre-U results
Don’t know which Uni you are, but with the abundance of people with 4.0/AAA around, why are Med Schools still taking in people with 3.5?
Academic achievement is not the only criteria to get into med school. furthermore do all doctors in malaysia got 4.00/AAA for their matriculations?
Of course academic qualification is not the only criteria, but it is the MOST important criteria. Of course in Malaysia lots of people with mediocre results get into Med school, that is why I asked. With almost 3000 4.0 from Matrik and STPM, and many more >AAA/ATAR>95 from A-Levels/Oz year 12, why would any Med school want to take a 3.5 over a 4.0?
i just want to give u a simple answer. some 4.0 pointer unable to argue/discuss/communicate during interviews compared to ones below 4.0. even some so called specially trained school end up scoring the worst ever when they are in the med school.
last time, selection was based on CGPA 4.0 only. now candidates need to go through a few processes in order to be offered a place in med school in Malaysia. and interview is a must now in malaysia. some interview also involve small test, basic skills, discussion, aptitude test etc etc etc…
i rather take a 3.85 candidate who know how to communicate with elderly than taking a 4.0 candidate who is always to himself and play with video games. (real case)
btw, recently not as many candidates apply to medicine compared to previous years. and some med school initially stated high criteria but due to lower number of applicants, need to lower the criteria in order to filter the best candidates
The main reason why, I believe, is money, no? Lots of good students have no money to study in IPTS. On the other hand, lots of rich parents want their academically mediocre children to be doctors. Tests, interviews etc means little, if you need to fill all available seats.
If you remove money from the equation, you will get a very different cohort of applicants to choose from. Look at who applies and how and who they choose in UK, Oz, Singapore.
my arguments are based on IPTAs, not private med schools, so no money is involved.
IPTA usually got no problem. IPTS is the problem. No numbers means they will not make any profit/ROI
Yes, no funding issue in IPTA, but a whole separate set of problems in selection processes. Now that the bulk of med students in IPTA are from the in-house Asasi system, how does one equate the results? Are the Asasi CGPA equivalent to Matriculasi and STPM? I see many 3.4/3.5 from Asasi selected.
someone with 4.00 and don’t know how to speak is useless lol…..not even Singapore/oz/NZ will accept.
Then you should ask how and why someone who cannot speak can be given 4.0 in our exam systems.
If you have a choice, please avoid studying STPM. For STPM 2014 result which was released this morning, only 390 students scored 4-flat and this number is so insignificant as compared to the few thousands in the untrustworthy KPM Matrikulasi and IPTA Asasi.
@jkl, Then u should know why people with 4.0 r not accepted
Hence my question above about how to equate results from different exam systems. And it is one thing to sieve through 4.0 pointers for the best candidates, and another to accept 3.0 when there are so many 4.0 around, able or unable to speak, purely on the basis of ability to pay fees.
Not all medical schools in developed countries conduct interviews so you still get students with perfect marks but zero communication or analytical skills sneaking through.
[…] registration will be issued by MMC. Please be informed that those who went to do medicine after the Minimum Entry Requirement was announced in May 2011 need to fulfill this requirement to be able to get a job. Your SPM results […]