When I first wrote something about GMC’s recognition of a branch campus of UK University over here exactly 1 year ago, I received few nasty comments saying that I do not know what I am talking about, just speculating, misleading the students and questioning the quality of medical education of this university. Let me clarify that first and foremost, to my knowledge, I never said anything about the quality of medical education of this university. I am very sure the standard will be better than most of the shop-lot medical schools in this country, since it is the same curriculum as in UK with same exams and quality control. However, what I wrote was about the degree international recognition and lack of academics, which is a problem faced by ALL medical schools in this country.
In my said article 1 year ago, I mentioned that just because it is offering the same degree as in UK, it does not mean that it will be internationally recognised. My experience being an academic in another branch campus tells me a lot of how a medical degree recognition works. Despite Monash Malaysia being recognised by Australian Medical Council, it is yet to be recognised by any other country including Singapore, despite already produced 3 batches of graduates.
A month ago I wrote this. In this article I mentioned that even if GMC gives recognition to NuMed Malaysia, the chances of getting an internship post in UK is almost NIL due to prevailing immigration laws and shortage of internship post as mentioned here. It has been clearly mentioned in GMC’s report over here ( see page 9 and B9). It is also mentioned in the university website. I am not particularly worried about Malaysian students at the moment as the job opportunities are still present but what about international students? Even for Malaysian students, when the glut hits us by 2016, where else are you going to work after spending almost RM500K to study medicine? The government sponsored students will obviously be given preference. Malaysia generally DO NOT provide housemanship for foreigners unless you are married to a Malaysian. So, as what is happening to the international students in Monash (only 4 students manage to get internship post in Australia for 2013, all Malaysians), the same situation will happen to NuMed international students.
Now, coming back to the topic above. GMC seem to be in a dilemma regarding this issue. Two weeks ago, it was reported that GMC may implement new rules regarding foreign campuses of UK universities ( see below). The GMC’s report is over HERE. It is very clear that GMC knows that they would not be able to monitor the standards of these branch campuses as how they monitor their own UK universities. At the same time, they can’t just derecognise the degree as it is the same degree. Thus, they are proposing to amend the medical act 1983 to include a separate type of recognition which do not involve the mother university in UK. It may be named as “GMC Overseas Programmes list” etc. However, since this will take a few years as it involves amending the Medical Act, GMC is proposing a PLAB-like exam for graduates from overseas UK branch campuses. GMC also admits in their report that “The work undertaken to date with Newcastle/Malaysia indicates the difficulties facing medical schools seeking to apply our standards overseas because of the organisationally and culturally specific nature of medical practice. The context makes a real difference.”
Saying all this, the immigration law still applies to foreign students. I hope all students are aware of these issues mentioned above. I also hope those who commented on this topic 1 year ago read this latest development.
GMC forced to register medical
students trained overseas
By Abi Rimmer, 17 October 2012
A loophole in NHS legislation allows medical students trained overseas to practise under supervision in the UK, the GMC has warned.
GMC: concerns over registration of overseas-trained medical studentsThe GMC has asked the DH to amend the Medical Act 1983, so that students who study medicine at a UK institution abroad are not automatically entitled to UK provisional registration.
The regulator raised concerns after UK medical schools established overseas initiatives offering medical degrees to students abroad. Because the courses were offered by UK institutions, the GMC said it was required to regulate them and offer any students who graduated from them a provisional GMC registration.
A report in GMC board papers for its September council meeting said: ‘As things stand the GMC’s statutory framework would result in an entitlement – subject to fitness to practise not being impaired – to provisional GMC registration for students who have trained entirely abroad and may have had limited interaction with patients in English.
‘If such students are granted a UK primary medical qualification, they are eligible for UK provisional registration. In turn, that gives a platform for clinical exposure to UK patients, albeit under supervision.’
The GMC also warned that it had little control in regulating standards at overseas campuses, because ‘the only formal power we have is to withdraw recognition of a UK university completely’.
‘It seems disproportionate to do this if our concerns are limited to the overseas campus,’ the GMC warned. ‘Such an “all or nothing” power is a very blunt instrument.’
The GMC report said it would like to develop a new framework under which it could treat graduates from GMC-approved overseas programmes as holding an acceptable overseas qualification rather than a primary UK qualification.
This would require the DH to amend the Medical Act 1983. But these changes are unlikely to occur for at least three to five years, becuase the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence has told the DH they are not a priority. By this time students in Malaysia and Cyprus will have graduated, the GMC warned.
To provide ‘belt and braces’ assurance, the GMC said it may also include a requirement to pass an assessment equivalent to the professional and linguistic assessments board (PLAB) test – a test for International Medical Graduates to demonstrate that they have the necessary skills and knowledge to practise medicine in the UK.
Existing UK/Overseas Initiatives
- The most advanced initiative is Newcastle/Malaysia, which offers degrees in medicine in Malaysia which ‘are identical to those of Newcastle’s UK-based provision, and lead to the award of the same degrees’.
- Newcastle/Malaysia, received its first students in September 2011. Those students spent their first two years in Newcastle and will graduate in 2014. Subsequent cohorts will undertake their entire study in Malaysia.
- St George’s, London, has established a similar initiative with the University of Nicosia, the largest private university in Cyprus, to offer the St George’s graduate-entry 4-year MBBS (Bachelor in Medicine and Bachelor in Surgery) programme in Cyprus, the GMC said. St George’s University of Nicosia admitted its first students in 2011, who will graduate in 2015.
Pagalavan's Avatar 
As usual, Bolehland wants to find a short cut to making $$$ and through non-disclosure of material facts; ignorance is bliss….until Dr Pagal comes along and wakes everybody up to reality.
For some, it comes a little late.
Newcastle medical school is a good medical school in UK. Its medical graduates always perform very well in the MRCP, MRCOG, FRCA and MRCGP exams – often within the top 5 in UK. Now they may claim that the Newcastle UK and Newcastle Malaysia degree is identical on paper and syllabus but for bedside medical teaching during the clinical years, can it be similar? For one, each medical school in UK has access to many teaching hospitals, as many as 8 to 14 hospitals and some of these hospitals have as many as 1200 beds. Would the medical school students here have a similar level of exposure? I doubt it.
Of course it won’t be similar. Why asking this question in the first place? In fact, the level of student exposure could be better for some cases. For example, students see more baby delivery in government hospital in Malaysia, but less in UK.
sigkly becomes cool! Seeing does not mean anything. What is important is the teaching environment. One of the main problem in the Malaysian Healthcare system is the fact that most of these government hospitals are not suitable for teaching purposes. The consultants are just too busy working and got no time to teach the students. Thus, the burden falls onto the full time academics. The shortage of full time academics will add to these difficulties in the local environment. That’s probably what GMC is worried about.
When I was a student in UH many years ago, I had a Professor of O&G who told us ” any monkey can deliver babies”. What is more important is picking up high risk cases and managing intrapartum progression of labour.
And monkeys do. They’re called midwives. In developed countries, some midwives even advocate a “medical-free, holistic, natural” home birth, like we used to 100 years ago. Nothing went wrong then, after all 😉
Hello again Dr. Paga, hopefully you are in good health.
I do agree with you in this matter. Yes in Malaysia you might be able to “see” more deliveries which is not necessarily is true. But just seeing without understanding is like watching a french movie without any subtitles. You can maybe try to make sense of what is happening but it will take more time to understand fully and correctly what is going on. And conclusions made without confirmation of the correctness of knowledge learned is dangerous and is a recipe for disaster if the medical student who then becomes a doctor practises it.
This is why not all hospitals can easily be turned into teaching hospitals. There are some baseline criteria that needs to be met. The patient demographics and clinical presentation might be the same but without enough clinical staff to teach the students, there is no point going to the hospitals as you will learn very little. I actually have never thought about this before but come to think about it, it could be hazardous if a medical student who is not properly supervised then are allowed or tries to touch or do procedures such as take bloods, insert cannulas, insert catheters etc.
And it is not fair for you, Mr. Cool to say that schools in the UK and any other good and reputable med schools in other countries to give less exposure to students. Usually, opportunity is very2 available and consultants, registrars, MOs and even interns in where I studied (Western Australia) are very2 friendly, very2 apporachable, and very2 willing to teach and give you as much hands on experience as possible. As long as the medical student shows effort and are keen and willing to help out and learn. This is priceless. Furthermore, throughout my years learning medicine in WA, Australia, a lot of doctors in the hospitals end up becoming your friends and they love you because they know that one day you will become their colleague who are competent and safe.
A word of advise to anyone who is interested in doing medicine or wanting their family member to become a doctor. You have to really research on the university first. A good and reputable university will ensure that you are trained properly so that in the future, you can become a good, competent and safe doctor. It is sad to see people who go to substandard universities being scolded and ridiculed for their incompetence in the hospitals. It is even sad if people die because of them. Don’t let these people be you/your family members one day. Kind regards.
I have a question to Dr. Pagalawan and all. Numed and Perdana are both new universities in Malaysia. Which is good, Numed or Perdana University? Can you explain in term of being a student and working there as a lecturer.
If comparing this 2, I would prefer Newcastle.
The bitter truth is that The Great Britain is saving the turf for their local graduates.Its preposteorus for anyone from Perdana,Newcastle & Penang Medical to think that thier parent country will accept them under exisitng circumstances.On the question of standards.from UK,Aus.tralian &NZ graduatesreturning home,none can be considered superior to our graduates as the local schools have greater access to patients..I have worked in Scandinavia,Britain and in Australasia .its only in perception of the beholder. ..
You make a very good point, outright. I think graduates of the more established medical schools in our country are comparable to those from developed nations.
However, med school only provides 50% of the skills required in terms of the finished product. Your first few years as a junior doctor really molds your practice and influences you tremendously. The training you get as a junior doctor is invaluable. It is this aspect where the standard Malaysia is now at an all-time low. The houseman glut means less access to patients and a poorer breadth of experience. This perpetuates itself when these houseman become MOs. 100 houseman in a department when only 20 were needed as little as 5 years ago. This cannot be good and poor planning by people with $$$ in their eyes is to blame.
Outright, you said “……the local schools have greater access to patients”. Can you elaborate on this? I am under the impression that given the glut in the number of medical schools and medical students and the relative shortage of teaching hospitals, access should be less.
Public hospitals still has a lot of patient load BUT it is the teaching environment which is important. Unfortunately, most of our public hospitals are NOT suitable for a good teaching environment.
Having greater exposure to patients does not make a student better. They need passion, brains and good tutor to guide them. Every country’s medical education is tailored to their health care structure and system.I have seen many of the local medical college’s students who do not even spend any time in the wards. They just appear when the lecturer is about to start the class. This is a fact that no one can deny. There are good one students and bad students from every medical school. What is more important is the entry qualifications and the interest in medicine.
In developed countries, undergraduate medical degrees is equivalent to a diploma nowadays. However, upon graduating they have a proper structured training system in place unlike Malaysia. The bad ones will be kicked out. Here, they will continue to work and cause more damage.
This is entirely correct. Here in the UK, we also have supremely lazy medical students who turn up the bare minimum to get through their undergraduate requirements to attain their degree.
But once they graduate, there are many checks in the system from “foundation” to “continuing” through “specialist” training to ensure that individual makes adequate progress. A failed trainee is seen as a failure of the individual as well as the training system. So there is a degree of collective responsibility and motivation to ensure that failing trainees are properly supported.
The highly competitive merit based system of postgraduate training also ensures that most doctors will not end up in positions of responsibility that exceed their safe abilities. Yes, on rare occasions, a Harold Shipman slips through. But no system is perfect.
Finally, we have the GMC which is a policing organisation which primary purpose is to nail doctors to the cross for errors, funded primarily out of annual membership fees paid by doctors themselves! (Imagine if you told the law profession that you were going to set up a regulatory body which primary purpose was to prosecute them for errors, and that it would be funded by fees paid by lawyers themselves? Fat chance that!)
I agree with Dr. Paglavan to some degree. Since initially a proposal was made by GMC to provide us internationals with GMC provisional registration. it is however starting to look like they might not exactly call it GMC reg for us any more….(could be a syndicate body under GMC like GMC INternational….) Haiz…..
Actually, GMC never said they have accreditated NuMed. They have also warned before that even if you are eligible to get provisional registration with GMC, you are unlikely to get a job in UK due to immigration laws. AND if you do not do FY1 in UK, you will never be registered with GMC.
Dear Doc,
I would like to enquire about some information about MO relocation. My gf and me going to going to get marry soon, but we were worry that its hard for her to get a place in Penang Island. I had house at Penang Island, what are the chance or % she will get a place in the island zone? We plan to have babies soon after marry, and I don’t want her to carry a baby and travel around. Was it possible that the MOH will drop her at Prai side?
Are you a doctor as well? It is very difficult for me to say anything as it all depends on availability of post. MOH do give preference to married couples but no guarantee that you will get it at Penang island. Seberang Prai usually will have more post available.
Does it means all married couples (as long as one of them is doctor) or only preference be given to married couples who are all doctors?
If both doctors, easier for MOH to send both to the same district. Otherwise, depends on availability of post
Dear all,
I graduated in June this year from Penang Medical College and am currently three months old in the local health system. To cut a long story short, I am very interested in sitting for the oncoming Plab exam in March 2013 with an intention to eventually specialize in the surgical division. The UK-pulling factors would include both for personal and training reasons. However I also understand that due to recent changes in legislations and the UK-EU preferences it may be quite a risk to take as it would mean resigning from the government sector, discarding the full mmc registration but still not secure a job from the NHS/GMC. Moreover, the most recent review claims that (up to) only 22% of applicants successfully passed Plab 1. – Comparable to MRCP paces I hear haha. (source http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/view-article.html?id=20003762)
From numerous comments left in previous posts, I understand that there are doctors actively practicing in the UK who frequent this blog and would therefore like to ask for precious insights regarding the situation above specifically;
1. Would it be beneficial to finish housemanship in Malaysia before attempting Plab? (however the GMC license applied for would be of a different type)
2. What are the chances of securing a job post plab 2 as a FY2 in a non competitive county?
3. After the job is in hand what is the likelihood then of securing a specialist training post in a surgical based specialization?
4. Is it worthwhile going the distance for the UK or should I just divert my resources to say the AMC or MRCS-> singapore instead?
Thanks for the attention and I really appreciate the replies.
Jolynn
It is almost impossible to secure a job in UK now even if you pass the PLAB exams. Thus, I would not waste much time sitting for it. It is always better to complete your housemanship here and get your full registration before even considering going anywhere else. Even if you do get a FY1 post in UK, the chances of getting a surgical training post in UK is very slim or almost NIL. Those who do housemanship in UK after graduating from UK medical schools are finding it tough to secure a training post post FY2 and beginning to return home or going to Singapore and Australia.
A more better option will be MRCS and then Singapore. However, Singapore has changed to residency system since the last 2 years and I am not sure how you will fit in.
A well-thought out question, as opposed to some of the other queries I’ve seen here.
Your chances of getting on to surgical training as an International Medical Graduate in UK or Aus are very very slim. They have enough quality local candidates who have been gearing themselves for surgical training since med school. It is highly unlikely they will pick you over them, even disregarding the fact that you do not have PR/citizenship. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
I suspect the better choice would be to get a job as a surgical MO, sit the MRCS exams, then applying for jobs in Singapore (training post not guaranteed) and Malaysian Masters at the same time.
If you are considering non-surgical specialties, UK and Aus/NZ are still viable options but risky because you do not go straight into a training programme even if you do get a job, and there is no guarantee you will ever get on.
Dear Jo,
You are most articulate and your manner of enquiry would indicate that you have a bright future ahead of you. I wish you well.
I am sorry that you will not like what I have to say, but it is the truth. I am a Malaysian who is currently a Consultant Surgeon in the UK in a major teaching hospital. In my 20+ years in the postgrad system here, I have only encountered one IMG in a surgical specialist training post who got his/her primary medical qualification from Malaysia.
Past statistics would indicate that the non-EU trainees with non-UK primary medical degrees who have the best chance of securing specialist training posts here are mainly from Singapore and Hong Kong. The ones from India, Pakistan and the Middle East are much less successful. And as I said, I’ve only ever encountered one Malaysian (UM grad, came here right after housemanship to do basic surgical training) who managed it.
This is not to say that Malaysians can’t get specialist training posts. There are numerous who do, but invariably, they are UK graduates. Read into these statistics what you will. The current immigration policies with regards IMG’s make it that much harder to obtain a specialist training post, particularly in a high demand area like surgery.
It is up to you what you wish to do and if you are determined, it is worth remembering that all great things start from small beginnings. But the numbers are not on your side and if you succeed, you will be the exception that proves the rule.
I wish you all the best and every success.
Dear all,
Thank you so much for your forthcoming information. Indeed it does not paint a happy picture but I wasn’t expecting a miracle either.
As of yet I still do not have a decision in mind but do know that what you have shared with me has taken me one step closer to a commitment.
Many thanks.
Regards
Jolynn
Dear Jolyn,
I can see that you have done your homework. Not only are you seeking answers, you also provided some relevant information. Though I have no answers for you, I am sure your posting can be an example to others who seek help. I hope Dr Pagal, Dr Nav & others would agree.
Good job and wish you the best.
This is outright in response to YT & Nav.
Some medical schools have sufficient hospitals alloted under their care,For instance in my hospitals a group of 10 medical students can spend awhole morning with approximately 120-180 patients who are everwilling to be examined even by 10 students atany one time.At the ward level 10 students to 40 patients.The norms are checked by the MOHE accreditition commmittee.
It is the sole duty of the faculty to inculcate interest,something that we are committed to do so,once the interest picks up they blossom into excellent graduates.Give me a scenario in Scandinavia.England or in Austraklia where students are expected to get permission from consultants first athen from the patients to sit in for a consultation .
Like wise you cant enter an OT without the sisters & consultants plus the patients permission.
If you compare the differences,it is an uphill task in other countries to see let alone examine the patients to learn from.morover in may cases ther will be a board above or at the door saying patient unwilling to see medical students.
for those familiar with te overseas scene will entirely agree that it is a paradise to work here when access to patients is redily available till now.
The skills acquired by a local student overides that of a foreing medical students which we have witnessed for the last 25 years and stii continuing to see.
Surely Pagalavan,Stduents will be students ,her or elsewhere.The owness is on teh Medical schools head to ensure that the medical graduates comes to a certain standard before he is allowed to pass the exams.
In my institution the externals from the govt hosrpitals and university determine who passess.,no quota is imposed and the failures are acknowledged.
I take note that many universities may not adhere,the final outcomes will show in due course.
Certainly our exam system servers its purpose,imagine in Australia there are no more final exams in MBBS.Its by asessment,i too have participated and i feel its a joke.
give credit when its due and don’t lump all medical schools under one category.Even the public schools are not up to the mark,um,ukm or usm.
So why that hypocrisy.Acknowledge schools as they are,
What makes Monash,Taylors & PMC beter in your eyes is yet to be ascertained by me after 35 years and stiill servicing and now over the last 10 years thaving taught both locally and overseas
Regards,
Outright
Again thanks for the info. Yes, I do agree that we have a lot of patients in the ward to learn from. That is what I tell my students all the time but I can say that almost half the students do not do what they are suppose to do.
I am not sure which uni you are from, even though I can guess, the reality in many of the medical schools is as mentioned above.
BTW, I never said that Monash, Taylor’s and PMC are the best schools.
Yes, when I was with Monash, I did bring up the issue of NO EXAMS in final year but we were unable to change it as we need to follow the same curriculum as in Australia.
I will say this again that each country’s medical education is tailored to their healthcare system and proper training system is put in place after they graduate unlike Malaysia where they can go on making mistakes and killing patients but still remain in the system.
In JB hospital, students must get permission from the OT sister and anesthetist before entering OT. I know some other hospitals do that as well. Names of all students in the ward must also be given to the ward sister and HOD. Every hospital have their own rules but I do agree that it is much easier to see patients here than in developed countries. We will become like them sooner or later.
Wow, Outright. You make some really good points of how wonderful the teaching setup is at your institution.
From your statements it appears that the teaching strengths of the Malaysian hospital where you work are:
1) patients are willing to be examined by even 10 patients at a time
2) there is no need for a student to get permission from the consultant or patient before sitting in for consultation
3) students can walk into OT without permission from the sister, consultant or patient
What an amazing teaching hospital you work in since it appears to practice a model of medical teaching in line with the oldest and finest traditions of our caring profession (ie: before the existence of modern ethics, patient rights and advocacy).
It is a pity for teaching hospitals in developed nations that they are saddled with all these issues which evidently hamper the skills acquisition of their bright young scholars. How far they have fallen in the name of progress. What a shame to be civilised.
I call bs. (I did my MBBS in Australia)
“students are expected to get permission from consultants first athen from the patients to sit in for a consultation . Like wise you cant enter an OT without the sisters & consultants plus the patients permission.
If you compare the differences,it is an uphill task in other countries to see let alone examine the patients to learn from.morover in may cases ther will be a board above or at the door saying patient unwilling to see medical students.”
The above is simply not true – I’ve been a student at three tertiary teaching hospitals and two rural hospitals in Australia.
Students follow the morning rounds, then are free to clerk any patient they like pretty much. Courtesy, consent and professionalism is observed. However, more often than not, students do ask who to examine or take a history. The reason for this is simple: The treating team usually knows which patients could provide good histories or have interesting clinical signs! I dont recall ever asking permission from a consultant before examining a patient or taking a history. More often than not, the consultants are very nice and will ask you to examine a patient that has good clinical signs! Other times it’s pretty much up to your own initiative and you’re free to interact with most patients…though you do have to check with the treating team first (intern/HMO/reg) as some patients are not suitable for students. The team is usually super friendly and will point you to interesting patients anyway…. or ask you to report your findings back to them. The learning/teaching culture is very good.
“Like wise you cant enter an OT without the sisters & consultants plus the patients permission.”
I wouldnt want to be a patient in a hospital where students could be scrubbed in theatre without my consent. You make it sound like it’s an uphill task to get theater experience. Well, during my surgical rotations as a student, we were actively encouraged to scrub in for theatre.
The system in Australia is different on one big point: The entry requirements for most students (read: non-rural areas) is upwards of the 95th percentile. Students from inner metropolitan areas need to be above the 98th percentile to be called for a MBBS interview. For extremely rural areas the cut off is lower, but these students are a minority. We can argue until the cows come how about how entry requirements may or may not make a difference. I stand by my belief that it does, and will be reflected by the quality of graduates.
“Certainly our exam system servers its purpose,imagine in Australia there are no more final exams in MBBS”
Which university? o.0
As far as I know, final year exams has become more focused on clinical skills. Written papers have been replaced by clinical scenarios where students play the role of doctors and are then marked objectively with regards to their history taking and clinical examination skills. They are then required to think of differrentials, order investigations (being an assessment with limited time, path/imaging are handed over instantly when requested), come up with a diagnosis, and a plan for management.
Universities are favoring these clinical scenarios, which are arguably more relevant to the actual practice of medicine. They are less likely to penalize you for not knowing what Ca 19.9 is, but will expect you to perform a full history and list cancer as one of your differentials. They will also fail you if you do not rule out red flags appropriately, or fail to adhere to the standard of best practice. I actually failed one of my OSCE stations for failing to call the poisons hotline, despite prescribing the correct treatment (charcoal and acetylcystine for a paracetamol OD).
Jolynn Low from PMC. impressive tagging HO in OnG department.
Which institution is outright talking about?
Jon J&Mint Berry Crunch,
In Malaysia under Malaysia Incorporated all the hospitals have MOU’s with the MOH.
All teaching hospitals have sigh boards mentioning that the hospital is a teaching hospital for X medical college.
The patients have been moulded to accept the fact when they are admitted they will be examined by medical students.Less than 1 % of whom i observed may object to such an examination and we always respect that wish.
Skills acquired at bedside is of paramount importance for students,as such we have the exceptional goodwill here in Malaysia compared to other countries where patients right has to balways e observed failing which a complaint can be made to The Public complaints bureau in Australia,after which one may be suspended for a prolonged period of time under the guise of inquiry by MBA’s or others.
In three hospitals which i worked in South Australia and in 3 other hospitals in Brisbane,main and rural,the practise of asking the consultants,the patient and probably the staff i/c in the norm.Whats so strange about that.
Mint can deny that,that what extra civilisation in modern ages adds up to( i am not sure if it exists)costs in so called civilised.
Many a times students have been refused and i have taken it on myself to coax the patient saying that investing with future medical students will ultimately be good for the country.They then consent ,similarly for other examination i cajole the patients to do so.
Even in Britain the same applies,and boards in front of rooms and above the beds is as common a practise as in Australia.
i have worked in Kota bharu ,kuantan,Johore BharuSeremban,UHKL,UKM,IMU .malacca and have done relief in all the hospitals in east malaysia
In all these hospitals patients are agreeable at all times to see students.A verbal consent is always taken,hey we don’t do away with proffesionalism.
But in Minor ot’s ,major Ots ,labor rooms,the consultants and staff are aware and students are allowed in .Courtesy permission is always asked ,students are allowed to examine.
After having observed whats going on overseas let alone the number in each batch with 200-300 students in Britain and Australia.Not mentioning 400 students per batch in Cairo.
I have seen them over the years ,the good ,the ugly and the beast.
I would never recommend anyone to leave for an MBBS overseas.What’s required locally is to improve the intake of local faculty into medical institutions by improving our post graduation numbers,Hey presto if the medical schools pay decent salaries than peanuts ,more locals will join them driving off the Burmese and the Indians who are poor performers by enlarge.
So when it comes to choices IMU with a lot of local faculty should be a better choice , The others let it be Monash,PMC,and the rest of the schools are running with insufficient faculty.Most of them are partimers.
Lastly local trained postgraduates,i refer here to MRCP,FRCS,MRCOGOpthalmology & ENT are recognised world wide to be better than the graduates overseas.
As far as the local Masters i have my reservations.
Mint can deny that,that what extra civilisation in modern ages adds up to( i am not sure if it exists)costs in so called civilised. Many a times students have been refused and i have taken it on myself to coax the patient saying that investing with future medical students will ultimately be good for the country.They then consent ,similarly for other examination i cajole the patients to do so.
Dont mean to be a grammar nazi, but are you typing this on your ipad with autocorrect or something? There are lots of typos in your posts. Also, the bolded sentence above doesnt make sense.
You are spreading the word that patients often refuse to have histories taken or be examined in UK/Aus. This is simply not true. A great majority of patients do not refuse and are in fact glad to help out with medical education.
By being more egalitarian, the status of doctors in first world countries is not (relatively) as high as in Malaysia. Hence, the amount of respect demonstrated may not be the same. That said, being professional and courteous with a smile gets you very far. There are plenty of patients who are willing to be examined, and personally, I have almost never been turned down. Occasionally, patients simply arent in the mood, or non-english speaking (consent is a problem) so we just move on to other patients!
I have some friends who experience being a student BOTH in Malaysia and Australia – They all comment that doctors (including medical students) are more respected in Malaysia. That said, they have no problem finding patients to examine/clark here. We also get alot of teaching in the wards during rounds as the registrars, HMO’s and consultants are very eager to tell us the rationale behind the real life decision making that occurs day to day.
What im trying to say is: There is never a lack of patients to see/clark/examine/take a history in Australia at least. It is up to the student to be proactive in seeking clinical experience. You make it sound like it’s difficult… It is not.
If a student needs help to get a patient to approve of a simple history and examination, something probably isnt quite right. I just cant imagine a consultant asking a patient for consent on behalf of a student*! It has never happened to me at least… Usually I’d just approach the patient after the morning rounds with a smile and things go smoothly from there.
*with the exception of theater.
Hi Mint, some Malaysian medical students do complaining that there are discrimination from consultants and patients against non Aussie students. You are lucky not having these problems.
So it’s IMU. I think we have no worries with IMU graduates. IMU has 3 teaching hospitals. The one in Seremban has 800 beds and in Kuala Pilah, they have 300 plus. They also kick out medical students who fail. It’s other newer medical schools that is the concern I think and there are many of these newer medical schools. At least half of the 36 medical schools in this country and that is too many.
moving H/o’s and MO’s from lower to middle rung
Fact remains that none of us are in no position to revert the 36 medical schools in existence.This blog instead of lamenting about the number of schools should attempt to see how best we as a caring medical faternity can turn around some of the events to ensure that it would be a win win situation in five years. time
Fact remains there aren’t sufficient specialists in the country.Can we find ways and means to motivate and encourage medical students and house officers to pursue a post graduate programme which are easily availble to them.(not the masters)Do they need courses to be organised.I would be happy to do so.
The shortage of clinical specialists exists across the spectrum.The medical faternity throuh its existing organisation should push the relevant bodies to rerecognise FRCS,Radiolgy training in all hospitals,Patho training ect.
In many countries a prominent member of the medical association sits to advise parliment on matters pertaining to health rather than leave it to the politicians to decide.These are some of the initial changes required for the medical community to address so that the future can be visionary rather than bleak.
outright
The fact that outright and others have spoken imply that this blog has to a certain extend succeeded in increasing the awareness of the medical profession to the “state of health” of the medical system in our country.
We can’t do a whole lot to correct the medical system as you pointed out. That is because the same political system is in place. How many Malaysian specialists are there in the little red dot to the south? What caused the tremendous brain drain? This blog has highlighted so many issues that ail the medical system, so the powers-that-be are fully aware of them but the political will to change is another matter.
Real change for the better can only come about when the politicians themselves wise up and for that to happen, we can all guess what needs to be done.
Being a senior academic yourself in the medical fraternity of Malaysia, can you do something about this? This blog is to create awareness to the public and future doctors and I think it is doing a good job till now. If not, you would not bother coming to this blog anyway!
There are enough courses in this country for the various exams. BUT you can’t be spoon-feeding the juniors. They can always find out and do the necessary.
The only organisation that can change the scenario is MMC but unfortunately, MMC comes under MOH which is controlled by politicians. DG automatically becomes the MMC chairman. It will never become an independent body.
outright, you are obviously not familiar with how specialists are trained, the issues with inability to work out of msian for the majority of doctors, and how politics work in Msian.
Dear Pagalavan & Others,
i don’t think that the current scenario is a lost cause.There is much to be done.
Creating awareness in the bog is commendable ,but what happens next?
First and foremost if you are all goiing to depend on the MMC( they don’t even have the necessary staff to run their own show,) The association representing all of you let it be Alumini or any other organisation ,meets once a year ,has a fine dinner ,improve their coffers ,get drunk and go home until the next year.
The Medical community is a large community that has to be reckoned with,its influences are far and wide,with its current strength of 32,000 doctors,plus its influence across patients seems a formidable group that any party wants to keep aligned to.
I am familiar with the current request of the PM to come forward to bring forth problems faced by the community at large.
i have personally taken many issues through this portal and hey presto they come up with solutions.They will disccuss with the respective agencies concerned and will keep in touch with you until the issue is settled.
One such agency is the Public Complaints Bureau which can be contactable at
http://apps1.pcb.gov.my/eApps/bpaiaducmpl/AduCmplPublic/add.do?aplCode=ms.There are 70 officers at any one time who would take note of your problem and get back till you are satisfied with the outcome .
The next portal is the Prime Minister’s portal which is contactable at
ppm@pmo.gov.my.
Before placing ones request ,one has to ascertain what one wants ,consolidate and get a substantial representative.
1.Is it the shoratge of training posts for postgraduate
2.Is this a question of insufficient training hospitals for houseman,Kluand,Segamat ,kuala Pilah could be ready with a few transfers.
3.Should we start overseas postgraduate programmes in view of the shortage of specialists in the country.
4.should we stop sending students for undergraduate courses overseas and instead send postgraduates.
5.should we recognise further postgraduates from Korea,japan and theUS
6.Should we restrict the intake of current medical schools to 100 per year.
Have no fear,we are taxpayers and are equally entitled to raise such questions
before elected representatives.
Once a request is made ,a number will be given for followup and subsequent negociations. can be made.
to my queries i got a reply within 3 adys and for the issue to be completely sorted out with the trade ministry,MOHE and 2 other relevant agencies.
I really applaud the strength this blog has.
What more convenient time then now when the GE13 is around the corner.
Last a mention to Jk,let me remind you i was at GhKl when the first master programme in Orthopaedics was being organised ,subsequent masters evolved later .i have grown to see this programme be well established over the years and have been also responsible for the formulation of the sub specialisation in this country.
We will strive to get over this bump ,never let your hopes down.It is in hope we live to Move forward this respectable community
Cheers,
Outright
Seriously outright?
It seems that your solutions have totally discounted political issues.
For instance,
recognizing more postgraduate courses, e.g. Korea, Japan, US?
what will happen to local private specialist courses then? (e.g. KPJ)
isn’t there a possibility of the gomen starting to de-recognized more foreign PG courses, just to ensure that their cronies managed PG courses will boom?
Restrict the intake? Haha, you must be joking. As mentioned, medical education is a big business, probably some medical schools plan to get listed in Bursa.
And for god sake, you actually believe that the portal works?
Having replies to your so-called queries doesn’t mean anything, as in Bolehland it is as good as nothing is going to change.
It’s all about political agenda.
What Dr. Paga doing right now here probably is the most sensible thing as people are seriously under-informed about this field.
outright i dont think you even comprehend the workings of MMC
not to mention the training of specialists.MMC is not a place where you wine and dine. its a sacred institution dishing out punishment to errand doctors !!!they meet many times in a year for disciplinary hearings in addition to registering new doctors and issuing APC
point to point rebuttal of your dubious ,erroneus assertions,claims and sheer ignorance about the enormity of the ‘oversupply’ situation of doctors in this country
1 you dont need to be a rocket scientist to work out the arithmetic of nos. of places for specialist training.with 5000 graduates a year do you think the hospitals or the country for that matter can provide adequate training places for specialists training in whatever discipline?
2 again with 5000 graduates in ayear- opening a few more hospitals to accomodate the trainees will not suffice -its back to the quality issue
3 you claimed to be involved in the setting up of the masters programmme in this country-perhaps you can elucidate and ‘advise’ the gomen of the day as to which country in the world is willing to accept thousands of trainees with their primary degree that are not recognise elsewhere outside malaysia.mind boggling indeed for a layman like me
4 medical PG/SPECIALISTS training IS A FORM OF APPRENTICESHIP-its not an MBA or masters in law degree where you attend lectures and courses and be awarded a master at the end of the programme.
5 as a pioneer in the masters programme and probably responsible for the NSR register do you not know that american boarded specialists are recognise here
as for korea/japan or any developed countries in the world can the gomen afford to pay their wages?
6 education is big business.if i am granted a license to operate xxx institution,as an entrepeneur i would endeavour to fill the school to the brim with students .would you allowed the gomen to place a limit in the no. of patients in your private practice.ditto for the institutions of higher learning as long as they comply with the rules and regulation under which the license is granted or approved.laisse faire economy!!!
“The system in Australia is different on one big point: The entry requirements for most students (read: non-rural areas) is upwards of the 95th percentile. Students from inner metropolitan areas need to be above the 98th percentile to be called for a MBBS interview. For extremely rural areas the cut off is lower, but these students are a minority. We can argue until the cows come how about how entry requirements may or may not make a difference. I stand by my belief that it does, and will be reflected by the quality of graduates”
Hi Mint’
The entry requirements for most Malaysian public u is very high too. Most students are 4 flat holders. Some of these very good students, especially those from stpm, did not make it to UK or Australia mainly because of our education policy and their family financial constraints. A family financial status sometime does play a very important role on children education. A freind’s daughter is doing medicine now in Nottingham UK with her A level (2A, 2B , father is a specilaist in a reputable private hospital in Klang valley, can afford the cost), another friend’s daughter is in UPM with her stpm (4 flat, father is retired teacher with 4 children, cannot afford oversea education). Lack of money is always a big hurdles for many bright students not able to achieve their dreams going UK or Aus for medicine. That’s life.
Hi,
I agree that financial constraints will hinder a bright student’s aspirations to study medicine in UK or Australia. However, in instances where money is a non-issue, entry qualifications into a UK or Australian medical school (parent campuses only) are not just about academic excellence, which is already a given. You may be well aware that in Australia and UK, applicants will need to sit for aptitude tests even before they sit for their final pre-u exams. In some Aust med schools, these aptitude tests will determine if you are called for an interview by the medical faculty. Note that these interviews are conducted BEFORE the pre-u results are known. The decision on whether to offer an applicant a place will then depend on whether one makes the cut during the interview, AND exam results, and in Australia, it would be ATAR scores of 98.5 and above.
In the UK, there is the added pre-entry requisite of furnishing your Personal Statement (PS) at the time of application. For some UK med schools, one’s PS will determine if one gets invited for an interview. If one doesn’t get invited, then the chances of getting into that particular med school diminishes to nought, even if one delivers 4A* in A levels.
In both countries, there is a quota on the international student intake. In the UK, it’s between 7-12% of medical intake for that year, and in Australia, I believe it is about 20%. Competition is very stiff!
Barring the IPTAs, (with its own “pre-requisites”), entry into private medical schools in Malaysia, seem almost a walk in the park, in most instances.
Hi Jaz,
As far as I know, most A level students (friends’ children and family members/relatives’ children ) who apply for medicine in UK, as long as they have 2 As or 3 As, their chances are very good in getting offers from at least 2 medical schools out of 4 they applied for. However, I am not very sure about Australia, because those I know usually go to UK. As for the interview you mentioned, I see all ,if not most of them have no problem go through them, except cambridge and oxford. A medical school in Scotland had a telephone interview with my friend’s son for just 5 – 10 minutes and he was offered a place (conditional , pending actual A level result). I was shocked. My friend’s daughter who is now doing medicine in Nottingham with her 2 As and 2 Bs, then was also offered places at New Castle UK and Queen Mary. As for the PS you mentioned, it is not a test done in a classroom, they are given ample time to prepare at home, so most of them can give a very impresive statement (some colleges even have lecturers helping to vet through the PS before the students submitting them). In Malaysia, the competition in public U is very stiff, MCA or MIC receive many complaints or appeals every year. Our education policy is to be blamed, with stpm vs matri and quota.
The problem in Malaysia is we are having too many private medical schools, obviously some of them just take any student to keep business going on. Maybe MMC should consider to raise the min qualification.
The ‘quota’ for International Students in Australia is about 15%. There are only 7 (less than half of all med schools) undergraduate entry medical schools left in Australia, and competition is extremely intense. However, due to the Internship crisis (lack of places) and the strong AUD, many Malaysians are looking away from Australia towards UK.
The issue is usually not the public universities, as it is pretty competitive, and the students are usually amongst the top. There is however significant social engineering by having 2 streams of entry, the difficult STPM and the easier Matriculasi, and thus obviously not as meritocratic as entry into the likes of Uk and Australia.
The impact of one’s ‘means’ plays a much more significant part than your examples above, in Msia’s private med schools. Before the minimum qualification guidelines was issued, they were taking in people with CCC or lower. It is even more dismal for some overseas Med Schools. All purely because the students (or more precisely, their parents) have money.
It is virtually buying a medical degree.
Hi Karen,
Can I deduce from your observations that it’s really quite easy to get a place to do medicine in the UK then? I heard of 2 applicants who recently failed to get any offer, one with 3A*A, and one with 4A*. The latter did not get any interview invites, the former had one, but was rejected. Wonder what went awry with their applications then.
Hi Jaz,
I don’t mean it is easy to get a place in UK. Those (in UK ) whom I know at least ALL had 2 As. Not CCC or lower accepted by some M’sia private U as posted by jk. I personally do not know any medical student with such results. What I am trying to compare is the entry results of some students in our PUBLIC universities with the entry results of some Msia students in some UK PUBLIC universities. The former though with a better results ( with 4 flat) but cannot afford studying in UK so have to stay put in local public U while their friends with 2As go UK because their family can afford the tuition fee. Family financial status does play a very important role for MOST students.
The answer is simple. Decision on whom to accept into medicine in the UK is decided LONG before the a levels results are out, and the final result plays almost a nil effect.
The decision on the short list of applicants to call for interview is based on the applicants’ Personal Statements, and the results of UKCAT or BMAT tests. These are decided at the end of the year, ie a good 9 months before a level results and start of term.
If you don’t make the cut there, and get no interviews, you are out of contention, no matter how good your final results may be. It is pertinent to note that 4% of students get 3A* or better. The usual conditional offer that comes only need A*AA, the decision is made not on the a level results, but on the strength of the Personal Statement, high UKCAT/BMAT scores, and performance at the interview. Ie, selection is based on suitability criteria beyond academic performance. That successful applicants will be top academic performers is a given.
I should add that those who has AABB and got in must be at least 2, or more years ago. This year’s conditional offers have all been pretty much A*AA, therefore a final result of AABB will have the offer retracted.
That said, they do also give low conditional offers to applicants whom they really want, usually because of certain specific reasons. This may be people with unusual traits deem useful to the University, eg world class sportsman, or as part of affirmative action (yes, they do exist there).
For the benefit of Vestibule & Layman.
This is probably will be my last say in this column.You are just young ,think you could find solutions in a jiffy.There has been similar problems in the past when doctors were not employed for six months to a year when recession hit this country
1.Mistakes are always made (even by the ruling Govt),but the medical faternity need not sit in the corner and continue weeping without trying to find solutions
2.I understand the magnitude of the returning medical graduates,it slike the nurses,for your info the last batch of medical graduates who graduated in sept. 2012 have yet to be employed after three months and hence the graduates are upsetThings will tougher. resulting in further delays in employmentThis will hit the papers when parents turn to the media for help or to the politicians,subsequently there will be public awareness.This will then curtail people from vying for a medical course .For your info quite a number of medical schools are running at meagre numbers,lets see how long they can keep at it.Eventually Medical colleges will merge.That’s a certainity
3.You can’t have quality as well as a job at hand .The suggestion for opening some extra hospitals is to tide over the crisis of unemployed medical graduates who waiting to be called.Certainly we have to compromise first and then tighten the loopholes.Doctors who want to excellent will do so despite th eshortcommings
4.We are indeed short of specialists,there was a call out for Anaesthetists recently, If we can find placements from Govt to Govt ,this could expedite and reduce the congestion among Master students in Malaysia.Sri lanka was sending their trainee specialists to Australia prior to Australia insisting that they have an AMC certification.Once this was implemented,They hence decided to send them to India .Koreans & Japanese have exceptional skills of late.The American Diplomate degrees ,acquired five years as residency are recognised in many fields by the National Specialists register.
5.The issue of oversupply of graduates s not only in the medical field but even in Financial/computer /business and other fields .Graduates from MU are currently facing unemployment.
6.Its preposterous and wrong to assume that the Public Complaints bureau does not work when you have not even attempted ,This portal acts independantly and is not answerable to any organisation/Ministry except to the PM.
7.Continously lamenting about a problem and highlighting it without resorting to solutions will not solve any problem.It would be meaningfull if amidst these issues we find solutions as you cant expect your neighbours to help out.
8.Like all Medical Councils on the world that i have been acquainted ,I have been told by council members that there are two many dinosaurs with old ideas that need to be replaced ,vote some young ones into it and you will find some change .
My Last comment
“Mistakes are always made (even by the ruling Govt),….” – enough said.
outright
my last piece as well on your presumptous and unsubstantiated assertions and occassionally bordering ludicrous claims that exposes or rather unravelled your complete ignorance of the medical profession
firstly do not be dismissive of other participants qualifications and experience in this forum/blog.FYI i am into my 32 nd year of practice -perhaps more senior than you if indeed you are a medical practitioner!!!!!your 1st claim that doctors were unemployed in malaysia during the recession is probably a figment of your imagination-do you really know the recession you are talking about? well it happened in the mid 80’s when interest rates was sky high at about 15% and USA was under pesident carter.engineers were laid off ,factories closed because of decrease demand for all kind of goods across the globe. doctors were still the darling of the professionals then -good job and a salary of 2000 ringgit
no doctor was UNEMPLOYED during that period with the exception of outright
again point to point response to some of your spurious statement/claims
1 medical profession wallowing in misery or self pity -absolute rubbish,what most conscientious medical practitioners like dr paga is doing is to issue reminders that there is an avalanche of supply of doctors.educating parents and potential medical students to be aware of the supply vs demand situation.most doctors in established practice WILL NOT BE AFFECTED by the oversupply be it gps or specialists
2 as reiterated 5000 graduates a year for a population of 28 million -go figure the enormity of this problem given this country only allocates 4-5 % of our budget to healthcare. unemployment of future graduates is now a real possibility and no more a distant scenario
3 mr smart and optimistic ,how long do you think the hospitals can accomodate a perennial influx of 5000 graduates even if your interim measures are successful assuming you have the resources and monies ?. you mentioned about compromising the standard of medical training initially-presumably its acceptable for you or your family members to be managed by ‘incompetent’or ‘half baked’ doctors?
4 this is really interesting-ceylonese doctors trained by australian medical system!
which era are you talking about in the 60’s 70’s 80’s or90’s ?the whites only policy was only abolished in 1973 by the then labour party PM gough whitlam.
perhaps u are referring to the 80’s which unfortunately coincided with a abundance or oversupply of doctors in australia then
with their basic degree not recognised in australia- which hospitals would consider taking them in as trainees.even if its a gomen/gomen arrangement with waiver of recognition issues they can only take in a handful,we are talking about thousands in malaysia.
again FYI ceylon and india were net exporter of doctors esp specialists to Uk and the commonwealth in the 70 and 80’s until they slammed and shut the door in mid 80’s .here you are talking about sending trainees to australia,india korea and japan for training!!!! utter rubbish
again to refresh your memory mr outright with your outrageous claims , korea was at the same level of economic development as malaysia in the 1970’s and only took off in the mid to late 80’s.its akin and as good as sending trainees to malaysia for our expert tutelage then -well nigh impossible and most unlikely to have happened !!!!!it will certainly make headlines -ceylonese doctors trained in korea!!!!!!
5 well even my domestic helper knows that during any prolonged rainy period the price of fish goes up as the supply dwindles and prices goes south when theres ample supply -she is well verse with the economic fundamentals supply vs demand.however medical graduates and their parents in malaysia never envisage the prospect of not having a job after graduation-thats the core issue and thats what need to be address urgently .at the rate we are producing doctors ,this unenviable situation will be reached sooner than expected.parents and would be doctors should be
mentally prepared for the inevitable
as for the remaining 2 or 3 statements its not worthy of responding at all.
you dont even know the manifold functions of the medical council and you are bragging about liasing with the various medical councils around the world ostensibly for masters programme???
outright you are welcome to continue this discourse if you disagree/challenge my viewpoints and opinion base on facts and not imagined scenarios
[…] ago? Similar to the issues that I discussed about Newcastle 1 year ago which was confirmed here, […]
Dear Readers ,
To outrightly blame somebody as presumptious,unsubstantiated and eventuallydismissive, seems to be an overstatement for somebody who is totally ignorant of what’s going on perhaps sitting in a private practise with no outlook and unable to provide any long term solution .You got to check the facts before making any such statements due to your ignorance
As mentioned the bogs motive is to prevent an avalanche of supply of doctors,educating parents and potential medical students to be aware of the supply vs demand situation.
1.Fact remains that all spots available at foundation courses in medicine for this year and in the comming year(march intake) in most medical schools has been fully oversuscribed by students who’s love for medicine has not waned by this or any other blog.So the avalance is going to continue and this is not going to stop.suggest something pragmatic
2.At a recent meeting(this month) it has been declared that the authorities does not intend to increase the number of postgraduate places beyond 800 and max can raise to 900.It has also been pointed out there is a huge backlog of applicants and there is a possibilty that private medical colleges may be roped in to provide post graduate courses. What is the calibre of the private medical schools is certainly something to question about.Whatt solution do you have you for the thousands (statement endorsed )who are hoping to get a Masters course.
What alternatives do they have if they fail to get one as the numbers are limited.Any suggestions?
3.Currently Approx 400 superscle C has been dished out recently to retain specialists , in service.This will ensure specialists service will reach out to the most rural areas where the posts have been created .
4.You have yet to provide any worthwhile solutions to the current scenario despite your vast experience instead you are babbling with ignorance.and out of context as to the current happenings
OUTRIGHT
Dear Outright,
I think you are wrong in saying that no one here has any suggestions. Many of us are powerless to effect change in Malaysia. Even if we are embedded in the system, it is not easy to make things happen and any attempts usually result in more frustration. Such is the state of the public service and education sector in Malaysia. People have been suggesting options to the powers-that-be for years. I myself wrote to the MMA over 5 years ago – nothing much has happened since then. To reply more directly to your comments:
1. What this blog does is to increase awareness about the issues surrounding the future medical workforce. There have been similar articles in the mainstream media as well, although out govt officials openly deny there is a problem. I seriously doubt the courses are oversubscribed because these students have a “love for medicine”. 95% of them don’t even know what’s in store for them!
2. We have the capacity to train many more specialists, based on the number of large teaching hospitals in the country. Who controls the numbers? Govt? Universities? JPA? We have a system where there is a cartel in terms of postgraduate vocational training. The govt of the early 1970’s is directly to blame because they passed legislation to prevent academic colleges from conducting postgrad training, giving the sole responsibility to govt-controlled universities instead.
3. Once their bonds end, these guys will jump ship as well. If you are a non-Bumi, and you see your junior Bumi colleagues getting promoted ahead of you every year, you will end up getting frustrated and leave. Unless of course private gets saturated.
4. Many solutions have been suggested by Dr P and other commentators. Let me list but a few possible solutions off the top of my head. They all have pros and cons – won’t go into that right now.
– cap the number of students per intake in medical school
– force the amalgamation of the newer private medical schools
– implement a medical licensing exam across the board
– derecognise most of the foreign medical schools from developing countries (use the SMC list as a guide)
– have a transparent system for postgrad training selection
– force the universities to play ball with the postgrad medical colleges, and engage more in the joint academic councils (may even go as far as to give the postgrad medical colleges the right to conduct postgrad training)
– ensure there is no maldistribution of doctors within hospitals and rural vs urban areas but taking away peoples ‘cables’ (do this by making everything transparent)
– ensure promotion within hospitals is based on performance and merit, not race or some stupid JPA exam
Ok, got to go now. Time for my night call.
Dear Nav,
1.excellent ideas on how to address the current issue and i am aware that many of your suggestions have been currently addressed subtly
2.Given time with 1 care to be introduced sooner ,i am sure most of those in Govt doctors will be benefited more as we see the volume of patients surging ,with facilities in established hospitals on par to their private counterparts and the insurance being more prudent will prefer to send most of their patients to you.
3.The organisations representing the doctors should have the courage to speak out to the powers to be .They should have political affliations to be heard and the tooth to bite when necessarySo far these organisations are merely social organisations worse than coffee shop and barbers organisations ,at least these organisations have been doing something worthwhile for their members.What has your organisations achieved over the last 25 years.Nothing but further erosion of the doctors status Although they may claim,i have yet to see any thing sustantially.
4.Post graduate training wlll suffer the worst over the next ten years unless ther is a shift of policy.
.
Dear all,
I read through this discussion on this post with great interest.
As a 2nd year medical student in a new hybrid curriculum, I picked up on these issues plaguing the future of the medical profession somewhere back in my 3rd semester, and I can confirm the following points:
1. 95% of medical students do not know anything about what the profession is like in Malaysia. They see being a Doctor as lying on a bed of roses, earning big bucks once they graduate.
2. Most of them plan to practise overseas, although they know not of the magnitude of difficulty in securing a position there (UK, Ireland, Australia)
3. At least 30% of the medical students I know entered medicine due to parents’ wishes, or simply because they had good grades and didn’t know what to do post SPM/A Levels.
4. Patients in teaching hospitals are totally accustomed to having medical students examine/clerk/insert lines/take blood from them in the wards.
5. Quality of students varies greatly from medical school to medical school. A semester 8 student took me and my buddy aside one day to tell us that we made them look bad in front of the specialist during rounds. (We’re ending our 3rd semester)
I would like to thank Dr Paga and all contributors to this blog’s discussions for increasing the level of awareness regarding the strengths and weaknesses of the current scenario in healthcare in Malaysia. Whenever a fresh SPM graduate approaches me for advice regarding studying medicine because he/she wants to be a neurosurgeon, I direct him/her to specific posts in Dr P’s blog.
Awesome stuff we have here
Cheers =)
Dear a Med Student,
You make my day and certarnly Dr Pagal’s.
Thanks for the comment and you have just reconfirmed what I have been saying all this while
I would to pursue medical degree program, among IMU, Monash Sunway, Perdana University, Numed Msia and PMC, which Uni is more preferable? Just hope that i can show up better qualification in society if im requesting for a job in private hospital. and may i know which Uni is accredited by foreign countries medical councils, means that i can do my internship in some other countries like Spore, Australia or UK. Thanks in advance.
The answers are all here in the blog. However, this appears to be a recurring question, and the answers are rather scattered through the blog. Perhaps Dr. Paga can write an entry specifically addressing this issue.
In a nutshell, the following local graduates have a reasonable CHANCE (not a guarantee) of working in the follow countries:
UM/UKM-Singapore
Monash Sunway-Australia
None-UK
ALL these has been written and answered many times in this blog. Please spend some time reading all the entries under ” for Future doctors” page.
MOnash is recognised in Australia but getting an internship post is becoming very difficult due to limited post. Only less than 7 manage to get it last year.
UM/UKM is recognised in Singapore.
All the rest are not recognised elsewhere.
What do you mean requesting for a job in private hospital ? Private hospitals do not hire housemen. they do hire some MOs for their emergency department. That’s about it.
Ops..is my mistake. Maybe the question should be asked in the other way round. Erm..if your children were going to be enrolled on those universities as i cited in previous comment, which one you would choose for them in terms of the university’s reputation, study environment, lecturers’ passion on teaching, facilities ( does it fulfilled the standard of a medical school ) ? And all my fees will be covered up by jpa, so im not worrying about the fees, yet just hope that i can choose the best medical school in local.
Appreciated..
Numed, MOnash, PMC and IMU are all ok.
In that case, all are okay, except Perdana. I presume IMU-PMS is not in the list, otherwise that will be the best.
What about aimst? Is it better to do matriculation or foundation in science?
Aimst is OK. Matriculation is better if your intention is to enter public university
I am a medical student at NUMed Malaysia and I find this article offensive
May i know which part is offensive? What was written was based on facts published by GMC and publications in UK
I’m backing Dr Paga on this one. I think in this article, Dr Paga is only stating that NuMed medical students are not automatically or will be equally treated by the GMC and UKBA (immigration) in comparison to their UK counterparts. That’s all. No where in this article has Dr Paga undermined NuMed. Dr Paga just wants to make potential students aware about this – so that they will not be deluded thinking that they can continue horsemanship in the UK after graduating and spending huge amount of fortune in NuMed.
I cannot help but to clarify something here. I can see how people misunderstand the concept of “recognition”. Both NUMed and Monash Sunway are recognised by their medical councils. NUMed is recognised by GMC and its degree awarded is considered as a UK PMQ.
What is misleading and wrong is the claim of the owner of this blog that NUMed is not recognised anywhere but only Malaysia. Recognition does not mean a licence upon graduation without further exams. For any recognised medical school, it has to be listed in the IMED listing (https://imed.faimer.org) and/ or World Directory of Medical Schools (http://www.wdoms.org). Once the school is listed, it is recognised worldwide by an international standard. In many countries, for instance, US, Canada, Hong Kong and UK, as long as the medical school is listed on IMED listing or World Directory (previous WHO listing), the school is recognised and so is the degree. This allows graduates to proceed to the next step to obtaining a licence to practice.
In the US and Canada, graduates from local medical schools have to pass USMLE (all parts) and MCCQE (all parts), respectively, to get a licence and before that they need to compete for a residency position. They just obtain a medical degree upon graduation but not a licence. For international medical graduates (IMG) in North America, they also need to follow the same path, in addition to one to two exams to ensure the international medical degrees are of comparable standard to the local ones.
I have read all the related published reports regarding NUMed program by GMC and Monash Sunway program by AMC. The programs are all accredited and recognised by their medical council and also, because of the listing in IMED and World Directory, they are also globally recognised, except Singapore where it only recognises medical schools on their list.
While you are not wrong, many medical students and parents equate recognition with unrestricted access to practice. It is not hard to get a medical school listed on the WHO directory, so one may conclude that almost every medical school out there is ‘recognized’.
Parents and prospective students need to know that, in some cases, even GMC and AMC recognition will not guarantee an intern job in that country despite the marketing statements of certain medical schools. International students = money for those institutions.
I think that is the message that needs to be put across, and that is what I think the owner of this blog and other commentators are trying to do.
IN the world of medicine, “recognition” means a person should be able to work in a country without the need to sit for any licensing exam. That is what it means and not like what you had mentioned. I think it is you had misunderstood the word ” recognition” when it comes to medicine.
Secondly, listing in IMED and WDOMS DO NOT mean it is recognised internationally. Please check your statement. This listings are just a list of medical schools that exist in a particular country. It DOES NOT give any form of international recognition. To get into the list, the medical school just have to submit information to them that they are an approved/accredited medical school in that particular country. That’s all! FYI, even if you are not listed there, you can still sit for USMLE and many of the countries entrance exam by just submitting some relevant documents. So, the list is not what you claim it is. Just look at the statement from WDOMS:
It is the mission of the World Directory of Medical Schools (World Directory) to list all of the medical schools in the world, with accurate, up-to-date, and comprehensive information on each school. To help and protect patients and to meet the needs of society, we need to know that a doctor has attended a genuine medical school of good standard, and has demonstrated the competence required to become a certified medical doctor. The validated information in the World Directory will enable students, faculty, medical regulatory agencies, and other stakeholders in society, to easily access information proving that a medical school exists and is of good quality.
The listing of a medical school in the World Directory of Medical Schools does not denote recognition, accreditation, or endorsement by the World Directory of Medical Schools or by the partner organizations leading this venture, the World Federation for Medical Education (WFME ) and the Foundation for Advancement of International Medical Education and Research (FAIMER). Similarly, the listing of a medical school in the World Directory of Medical Schools does not denote recognition, accreditation, or endorsement by any or all of the sponsors of the World Directory of Medical Schools, except where this is expressly stated either on the website of the World Directory or on the website or other literature of any sponsor.
Association of any medical school with FAIMER or WFME, whether as a member, a member of an associated network, or otherwise, is not related to the listing of the medical school in the World Directory of Medical Schools, or to the recognition, accreditation, or endorsement of the medical school.
This is the statement from IMED:
The International Medical Education Directory (IMED) is a free web-based resource for accurate and up-to-date information about international medical schools that are recognized by the appropriate government agency in the countries where they are located. FAIMER is not an accrediting agency. Listing of a medical school in IMED does not denote recognition, accreditation, or endorsement by FAIMER.
A medical school is added to IMED after FAIMER receives confirmation from the Ministry of Health, Ministry of Education, or other appropriate agency that the Ministry or agency has recognized that school.
So, your statement that it gives an International recognition is not true. It just says that such a medical school exist!
You are also wrong when you stated that only Singapore has a list of recognised medical schools. A lot of other countries have similar list , including Malaysia, India, Some African countries and a lot of asian countries. In most countries, only if the degree is recognised by the medical council of that country, you are allowed to get license to practise ( not necessary a job). If not you need to sit and pass the entrance exams. It is the same in UK as well where any degrees obtained outside UK which is not recognised by GMC will have to sit and pass PLAB. Since NuMed is recognised by GMC, you don’t need to sit for PLAB. For US and Canada, everyone including their own graduates will sit for a common exams which is usually already incorporated into their medical school curicullum.
So, I don’t think I had mislead anyone here. You need to understand the meaning of word ” recognition” in the context of medical education. As far as public and medical field is concerned, recognition means the ability to get license to practise without the need to sit for any exams. That’s what it means. Listing in IMED do not mean anything. FYI, even schools which has closed down are still listed in IMED, please check Malaysian list! And also school which are yet to be accredited by MMC are also listed! So, what international recognition are you talking about?
Doctor, I’m a jpa scholar and got offers from imu, perdana and Newcastle. Which one should I go for? Thanks in advance.
IMU or NuMed should be fine
Dear Doctor, between IMU and NuMed, do you have specific comments on both? I am in the midst of choosing between these two for the JPA scholarship.
Both are OK
I presume it will be IMU local, as JPA is no more sponsoring to overseas. Since you will be bonded, you will need to stay and work locally, so either is fine. Perhaps the clinical school will help decide. IMU’s is in Seremban, and NuMeD’s in Johor Baru.
What about if we put Monash into the picture?
Do you mean that in terms of quality of education all 3 are of same level? And the only difference is just on their geographical location for clinical?
Each one has a different curriculum. So, to compare is difficult. However, the standards of Monash and Numed is controlled by their parent university as the exams are the same.
Sir if I have a choice between UM and Newcastle jb (both under jpa scholarship) which one should I go for?
Obviously UM
Some of my friends from matriculation who got offer from ukm, um and ums did go to Newcatsle.
May I know whether MyPR card holders are eligible for pre registration internship in Malaysia?
At the moment,PRs are also NOT given a post
Maran
Dr
My daughter got offered Matriculation and also offered by Numed Foundation, your advice?
Didn’t know that NuMed is running foundatin! Depends on what she wants to do. She should also buy my books and read to understand medicine better.
Dr, Yes 2016 will be the first batch for Foundation programe and offered only to local’s
So, looks like even NuMed is joining the bandwagon…….. i wonder whether GMC will accept those who enter via Foundation. That’s why probably it’s open only for locals.
All the private Med Schools are having problems recruiting appropriate students with enough money, and hence it becomes essential they “lock in” some student via their own Foundation pathways. There is some reprieve this year, as JPA changed all the overseas scholarships to local. If the minimum requirement revision is approved, it will make it more difficult again. Perhaps that is why MoHE is NOT agreeing to the revision.
Hello Pagalavan Letchumanan, I just came across your web page. We are on process of selecting Medical school for our brother (MBBS). After reading your page we would like to consider Numed (Malaysia). Could you kindly help us to share more about NuMed world wide recognition, further studies (MD, preferably in UK), practice options in Singapore, UK, US, Middle East? Your inputs would be great.
Numed is NOT recognised elsewhere except in UK/Malaysia. However it is unlikely you will get internship post in UK due to prevailing immigration law. This also means you will not be able to do specialist training in UK as you need to get a job first.
Is NuMed a good place to study? I can’t afford to go overseas but I would like to gain a reputable medical degree. I didn’t choose IMU because it’s more expensive.
NuMed is also expensive. NUmed degree is only recognised in UK, other than Malaysia as far as I know. However, you will unlikely get an internship post in UK after graduation (Brexit may change some of this but need to wait and see).
NuMed is coy about their fees on their website, but I believe it will be about the same as Monash Malaysia and IMU local programme, both currently at close to RM500K for the 5 years.
If the intention is to work in Malaysia, there are established Med schools with cheaper fees.
Thank you Pagalavan.
From your comments, it is clear that you are a person who always thinks that you are right and you never accept what other’s say no matter what. And no, you can’t prove that you are right by simply posting some links to outdated sources. Just because you somehow managed to become a doctor, doesn’t mean that everyone must respect you. With your kind of attitude, you deserve absolutely no respect!
well, if you have better information, please provide the information! BTW, this article was written in 2012!and I have given several updates after that
Here’s the ‘better information’:
1. You came from a shitty medical school who allowed you to graduate despite not having the attitude that a good doctor should have.
2. You are paid by some medical schools to talk bad about NUMed.
I am making it clear here that I will not retract my statements above.
Hahaha, what an information!! I don’t work for any medical school!! This shows that you got no information otherwise.
Well, you do not need to work for any medical school. They just need to pay you behind the doors, it’s as simple as that.
Here’s the ‘information otherwise’:
1. Apart from Malaysia and UK, NUMed is fully recognised by Australia, Canada, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Mauritius and India.
2. Malaysian students who graduate from NUMed can do housemanship at one of the 5 approved hospitals in Malaysia, after which they can practice in UK without having to do internship in UK.
If you want to say that I am wrong, you need to provide a reliable and up-to-date source (which you definitely can’t).
Hahahaha, I have already talked about this and had written about this in 2015 https://pagalavan.com/2015/09/14/for-future-doctors-gmc-registration/
PLEASE read before you comment! And I am not paid by any medical schools either!
BTW, Canada has a common exam for anyone who graduates outside Canada, similar to USMLE.
Nope, in that article of yours you are just making up all sorts of false information. Also, a 2015 article is in no way up-to-date.
FYI, nothing has changed to date. The competent authority pathway for Australia(training must be done in UK) and Canada is still the same. All the links are clearly provided.
Let me get straight to the point. I am giving you a grace period of 1 week to remove this post and all other posts that talk bad about NUMed or any other medical schools, as well as all your comments with personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with you. If you don’t, I will be filing a lawsuit on you. Don’t expect anymore direct communication from me.
I wonder who is attacking who. I am just asking for your clarification since you said I am wrong. I have given my links for the students to check for themselves. Medical students are smart enough to check for themselves and see who is right and who is wrong. FYI, I have never talked bad about NuMed. I am just stating the facts which you have not proven to be wrong.
NuMed website says the same thing that I have said all along http://www.ncl.ac.uk/numed/study/undergraduate/mbbs/#careers
Hello, doctor !
I want to ask for your opinion. Which is better IMU or NUMED. I have received conditional offers from both , but now I’m confused as to which I should enrol
Both are OK but Numed has advantage of being recognised in UK but getting a job there is another issue.
Actually I think it’s quite easy to get foundation jobs in the UK. There’s still a shortage.
The issue is with immigration and work permit
If they apply via the regular process, they will be employed by the HEE who will be the sponsor for the visas.
Dr PL, how is the situation now in 2021-22. Is GMC recognizing both Newcastle Malaysias NuMed and RCSI RUMC UCD (former Penang Univ) MBBS and MBBCh BAO programs? How is the situation now to do the academics and clinical training in these, and get a residentship in UK or Ireland?