Sometimes I wonder whether our politicians know what they are talking about. Every now and then I see ridiculous and populists statements coming out of their mouth. We have enough “foot in the mouth” syndrome fellows in our cabinet.
The following 2 reports appeared in 2 different newspapers today. Even the reporters are totally confused. One report says “professionals” and the other says “doctors”. The speech was delivered during one of the private medical college function. So, probably one of the reporters would have thought that he is only talking about doctors when the minister mentioned “professionals”. I wonder!
Now, let’s dissect this report and the figures quoted. Firstly, he says that there are 47 medical schools in this country!! OMG. I got NO idea where he got this figure from and if it is true, we must be the laughing-stock of the world for having the most number of medical schools in the world for such a small country, almost all unrecognized elsewhere. But then, coming to think of it, I realize that probably he is right! Even though we only have 34 functioning medical schools, with 2 more on the way, some of these medical schools got more than 1 medical programs running concurrently. AUCMS is proudly proclaiming that they are the first university in the world that has 5 medical programs (2 local and 3 twinning programs)!! Can anyone beat that!! UNiKL got 2 programs, MSU got 2 programs etc. So, if we include all these medical programs, we may achieve 47 medical schools equivalent!! For once, a politician is talking sense!
Let’s talk about the number of doctors. He says that we need 16 000 doctors in public sector by 2020. Does he know what he is talking about? Based on the latest statistics provided by MOH, as mentioned here, the number of doctors in public sector has already reached almost 26 000 last year. So, what 16 000? For benefit of doubt, let’s say he is talking about 16 000 more doctors needed in public sector by 2020. The number of NEW doctors registered last year was almost 4000, which means we can get the 16 000 doctors within the next 4 years, with only 50% of the medical schools in production mode!! Obviously, the production is only going to increase exponentially, has he considered that?
He also says that we are only producing 2000 doctors annually!! Does he really know what is happening? The number of NEW doctors registered last year was almost 3800 and expected to reach slightly more than 4000 this year. Has he forgotten that we have another 2000 doctors graduating from overseas either sponsored or self sponsored? He claims that the government is trying to achieve the ratio of 1: 597 by 2020 but has he forgotten that the ratio has already reached 1: 791 as of 2011?
I presume the college probably wrote the speech and our minister just read it out. That’s what usually happens and the colleges usually got their own agenda in preparing speech. If he is really talking about our great ETP human resource planning then I think our ETP guys really got NO idea of what is happening on the ground. Talking about nurses, just today our Human Resource Minister announced that 8000 nurses are jobless (see below)!! Welcome to Bolehland’s Human resource planning and what a contradictory statements. The best joke is when the Minister has to give appreciation letter for 60 nurses who manage to get a job!! At least the nurses can work in private hospitals directly unlike medical graduates who have to undergo housemanship training, only in government hospitals (although when the situation gets desperate, the government may force the private hospitals).
With other countries closing their doors to medical graduates, the situation will only get worst. It is confirmed that only 2 Monash Malaysia graduates got internship post for 2013 out of almost 60-70 students who applied. I have written about the Australian Internship Crisis here. The international students will be left in the limbo! Many international students intention was to go to Australia for internship since Malaysia do not provide housemanship for foreigners and the degree is NOT recognized anywhere else. Probably in the following years, none will get a post. The same rule will apply for Newcastle Malaysia as well. Even if GMC gives it’s accreditation to NuMed Malaysia, it is not recognized anywhere else and the chances for the graduates to get an internship post in UK is almost NIL as mentioned in their own website and here (see page 9 and B9). The situation in UK is not much difference from in Australia.
Even my nurse aid (STPM leaver and doing part-time degree in UTM) is smart enough to tell me that we are going to have surplus of doctors. This is exactly what she said:
“Doctor, saya nampak banyak sangat buat medic sekarang. I tengok hari itu, banyak orang Malaysia dekat Newcastle. Bolehke dia orang dapat kerja nanti? Sekarang banyak graduate jururawat yang takade kerja. 2 orang customer care staff kita ada diploma nursing tapi takade kerja. So buat kerja customer care. Dekat kampung saya, semua orang yang saya kenal and saudara saya, ada family member yang buat medic. Senang sangat ke masuk medic sekarang ini?”
Well, that sum up what mess we are going to get into soon. Politicians will always tell you sweat things. No one bothers about quality, only quantity! Almost 5-6 years ago, they said the same thing about nurses and we can see what is happening now. I know many families who felt cheated by the nursing colleges. They were promised guaranteed job. I know some parents who are suing some nursing colleges for the false information that was given to them but I can tell you that they will never win the case. This is because no college or university guarantees you a job. The university/college is RM 60 000 richer but you are RM 60 000 poorer and in debt (PTPTN loan)!
Welcome to Bolehland’s human resource planning…………….
I have said it, our Ex-DG have said it, our Ex-Health Minister have said it, MMC council members have said it, MMA have said it, any right thinking Malaysian doctors have said it BUT our politicians says that our ETP is the best……………. WTH.
Nor Mohamed: Govt confident there will be no oversupply of professionals by 2020
By DERRICK VINESH
KEPALA BATAS: The Government is confident that there would not be an oversupply of professionals when Malaysia attains a developed nation status by 2020.
Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Tan Sri Nor Mohamed Yakcop said careful planning had been made to strike a balance between the demand and supply of professionals.
“There would be an oversupply if we do not plan well.
“But, we at the Economic Planning Unit (EPU) and the Human Resources Ministry always plan ahead,” he said after opening Allianze University College of Medical Sciences (AUCMS)-Maybank Education Fund for Medicine at Kompleks Budi Penyayang here Sunday.
Nor Mohamed said the Government had identified the demand for professionals in the various sectors through its transformation programmes such as the Economic Transformation Programme (ETP) that was initiated in 2009 to catapult the country to a high-income nation by 2020.
“We know with a very good estimate the type of jobs that will be created, the amount of jobs created and the skills that will be required.
“So, all that we have to do is to make sure that the professionals and the skilled workers created match roughly with the demand,” he said.
Sensing the need for vocationally trained workers by 2020, Nor Mohamed said the government had initiated necessary measures, including by bringing vocational education to the mainstream of the education syllabus.
Previously, he said, vocational training was often treated like a stepchild, but not anymore now.
“For example, a welder who completes step one to step six of his training could earn about RM2,000 a month.But, his salary could go up to RM9,000, if he completed step seven.
“This is what we are trying to do, by upgrading our skilled workers’ qualifications,” he said.
He noted that almost 60 percent of the students who entered the job market in Germany were vocationally trained.
Earlier, in his speech, Nor Mohamed said the country would need 16,000 doctors in the public sector by 2020, taking into account a 1:600 doctor-population ratio.
At present, he said, there were 29 medical faculties in public higher learning institutions and 18 such faculties in private higher learning institutions that produced a total of 2,000 doctors a year.
Nor Mohamed congratulated AUCMS for emerging as the first private university to come up with a RM125mil Education Fund for Medicine that would be offered to those pursuing medical degrees in the university.
No oversupply of doctors
Last updated on 8 October 2012 – 08:46am
Aaron Ngui newsdesk@thesundaily.com
KEPALA BATAS (Oct 7, 2012): The government has given an assurance that the country would not face a situation where there would be an oversupply of doctors in future.
Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Tan Sri Nor Mohamed Yakcop said proper manpower planning by the government would ensure that such a scenario would not happen.
He said the government is in control of the situation as it could obtain an estimate of the manpower needs via the Economic Transformation Programme (ETP) and the various Entry Point Projects (EPP).
He said the information derived from the ETP and EPP would enable the government to gauge how many skilled workers were required and thus train enough people to meet demand.
“The trick is to make sure that supply equals demand,” he said at a press conference today after launching the Allianze University College of Medical Sciences (AUCMS)-Maybank Medical Education Fund.
Under the RM125 million fund, some 5,000 medical science students are eligible to receive up to RM300,000 each to pursue their studies.
Also present at the launching were AUCMS president Prof Datuk Dr Zainuddin Wazir and Maybank president and CEO Datuk Seri Abdul Wahid Omar.
The country currently has 47 public and private medical schools producing about 2,000 medical graduates annually. The government aims to have a ratio of one doctor for every 597 and one nurse for every 200 persons by 2015.
In October last year, the then Malaysian Medical Association (MMA) president, Dr Mary Suma Cardosa had reportedly said the number of doctors in Malaysia was increasing too fast.
If the situation was not checked, she had warned, doctors may find themselves needing to be retrained as nurses in order to find jobs, citing the Philippines as an example.
The spectre of too many doctors in Malaysia was raised in 2010 by MCA president Datuk Seri Dr Chua Soi Lek who reportedly said that there would be an oversupply of doctors in five to six years time.
Chua, a former health minister, had said students who wish to pursue medicine should be aware of this trend since the subject is a top choice for those seeking places in public universities.
About 8,000 graduates from nursing colleges are jobless
KUALA LUMPUR: About 8,000 graduates from nursing institutions, especially those from private colleges, are jobless and the Human Resource Ministry is searching for solutions.
Its minister Datuk Seri Dr S. Subramaniam said that a study by the Health Ministry showed that 8,000 graduates who pursued nursing courses were jobless, especially those from private nursing institutions
“The Human Resource Ministry and the Health ministry will hold discussions to find a way to resolve the problem,” he told reporters after handing out appreciation letters to 60 private college nursing graduates who secured jobs through the My Career Fair 2012 organised by the Special Implementation Task Force at Wisma Perkeso here on Monday.
Subramaniam urged the nurses to accept employment opportunities outside private hospitals.
“Among places that require their service are old folk’s homes, child care centres and centres for people with special needs,” he said.
Subramaniam said the My Career Fair 2012, which held open interviews for graduates in the medical sectors, featured employers like Sime Darby Medical Centre, Pantai Cheras Hospital, Hospital Pantai Ampang, Hospital Damai and Assunta Hospital. – Bernama
Pagalavan's Avatar 
Dear Dr,
If i’m not mistaken, Malaysian government came out with the law about freezing the medical schools ? why there are emerging med schools still ?
Our moratorium is unlike your car’s “emergency break”. After pressing on the “break”, it continues the screeches for several miles, before coming to a halt. Therefore, you continue to get a few more med schools mushrooming before a total halt comes in play!
Sorry, typo. I meant “brake”.
it screeches and seems to be keep going for now
Hello doctor. The only thing I see is just a lot of complains from your blog. Do you have any idea of how to solve this situation of surplus of doctors? I see that the only solution you come out with is to discourage students to go into medical school. Isn’t this unfair to a lot of bright students who really have the ability and passion to become good doctors? Even if there is a surplus of doctors in the future the weaker ones (those that are not very suitable to become doctors/those that does not have the ability) will be weeded out either in the university/in the work place. I believe that the jobless nurses are the sub-standard ones to begin with. So in the future if there are really jobless doctors those are most probably the not very good ones. Since there is so much competition the system will just work itself out by churning out the weaker doctors/students.
NOPE, you are wrong. Firstly, the only person who can solve this problem is the government. NO one else can do it. There is No way the weaker ones can be removed from the system. Our passing rate in the universities is almost 100%! Once they enter the system, there is no way they can be removed.
How do you determine who are the substandard ones? When our exDG wanted to introduce a common entry exam, it was shot down by the politicians.
YES eventually the government will have no choice but to introduce this exam BUT obviously government sponsored students will be given preference like what is happening to the nurses and teachers now.
I know many good nursing graduates who are jobless as there are just not enough jobs out there.
If you have real passion then go ahead. NO one can stop you. BUT just like any other job, there is NO guarantee that you will get a job. It happens in many other countries.
BTW these are not complains. These are the realities! THe truth hurts.
This is not a discouragement. All these are to make sure those who want to become doctor know what’s deal they will get in the future. A good doctor will probably still get thier job BUT if one want to become doctor and hope that they will earn tons of money and have luxury life, this is definately a wrong field to go into. In future a successful GP or specialist will be a rare entities. One may see the cadiothoracic surgeon or neurosurgeon earning tons of money but the route to get there might be extremely tough and may take upto 20 years before you start earning that kind of luxury income (when you friend start to think of retirement). Not to mention the time that you sacrifice for your own leisure and with your family to achieve that. It will probably easier to get rich starting any business rather than being a doctor. You need passion to survive this journey, otherwise you will get frustrated with the HO pay, long oncall hours, locum hours, weekend calls hours, seniors insult, consultants’ scolding, lost family life etc etc.
Hi, Poor Doctor, Not necessary starting a business will get rich faster, it can be more distraterous than working for others. A retired friend (Accountant) rented a corner shop in klang valley, operating a kopitam and sub-let stalls to others selling chicken rice, mee, etc. According to him, for the past six months since he started his business, he had lost almost RM120,000 (rental and other operating cost like staff salary, elect and water bill, etc) ), and is comtemplating of closing the business.
Either his location is horrible or his food is lousy! I know many people who open food business and are doing very well. There will definitely be some early loss but it will pick up later. Those who close shop are those with the above reasons.
how about mara??is it confirm job like jpa student?
very2 worried about this condition ):
dont want to become jobless
I believe that all gov sponsored students and local public university students will be given preference.
Politicians create more problems from solutions meant to solve the problems
Today’s Star paper has more write-up on the nursing glut and jobless nurses. Fast-forward 3-4 years and the papers will be saying the same thing about doctors.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/10/10/nation/20121010163836&sec=nation
This article is what I call knee jerk reactions!! Populist statement again. Let say, they absorb all these nurses, what happens to the next 8000 that are graduating soon?? We have 90 nursing colleges producing at least 100 nurses/college per year?
You are wrong! It is at least 150 per batch and 2 batches per year.
Sorry, my bad!
One fine day, when I went to work in the morning… I saw THREE groups of student nurses (8-10 pax/group) in my ward. Each group of them surrounding 2 staff nurses who are passing over report at their respective cubicle. WTH?? The WHOLE ward doesn’t even have THAT much patients…
Haha, it is the same elsewhere. One hospital is being used by at least 3-4 nursing colleges. They are now using the private hospitals as well.
i am planning to take pharmacy course in future,but as u say pharmacist is getting saturated future.will pharmacist will be jobless in future?how to u think dietitian course? if compared to pharmacy which one have brighter future?
Once the 1Care system is implemented, many more pharmacist may be needed especially to serve the rural and semi rural areas.
Pharmacists already jobless now. Because of the flooding of pharmacist, gov decide to cut the compulsory service of pharmacists from 3 year to 1 year. The market rate of pharmacist is also dropped tremendously. Implementation of 1care is controversial and may take years especially if BN lost or win by thin margin in next election.
Now the QUALITY of doctors are worrying. MOs now are not “diagnosing”. It’s from the poor quality HOs we have had and having. MOs now just “report” to the specialists the cases they see but can’t consolidate the information to reach a proper diagnosis.
That is not a new phenomena. There has always been a group of junior doctors who always have problems formulating a diagnosis, and a cohesive treatment plan. They diagnosis by symptoms, and treat accordingly as well.
I guess this small group will gradually balloon out into a significant portion of doctors, looking at the quality of students taken into many med schools, and the poor training they receive.
That is not a new phenomena. There has always been a group of junior doctors who always have problems formulating a diagnosis, and a cohesive treatment plan. They diagnose by symptoms, and treat accordingly as well.
I guess this small group will gradually balloon out into a significant portion of doctors, looking at the quality of students taken into many med schools, and the poor training they receive.
……corrected for English
Docswash you are 100% correct. I had a bad experience recently when my dad had a stroke. The MOs and HOs never gave proper follow-up advice prior to discharge and we had to go back to hospital for same complication.Really rubbish healthcare system.Sometimes it’s not just about mushrooming of colleges, the basics of proper clerking, history taking and consultation skills itself is lacking because of a poorly managed healthcare system.
8000?? wow ,how can the government allow such figure to grow.last i heard there are just within hundreds,but now thousands.i’m quite sure other medically related job will follow this trend.seems like the government is waiting for the problem to solve itself.keep playing the waiting game until the whole system come crumbling down, then and only then will we act.such a pity for a country with such wealth but poor in management.
Other courses also produce a lot of graduates. I understand that annually there is more than 100 thousands account or business finance related (both public and private, local and overseas) graduates and at lease more than 60% could not get a job related to their courses. So, the government will not think 8000 is a large figure!
Most of these finance and accounts related graduates are diploma holders and not degree holders. And they can also do so many other jobs unlike nurses and doctors where either you get a proper job or remain unemployed.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/10/13/nation/20121013220404&sec=nation
I was told the universities produces 60-70 anaesthetist yearly,highest after emergency medicine but the quality is …. Anyway it’s failure of government to retain the senior ones is the actual problem.
Dr Paga,
Just wanted to confirm about this.
Bonds with the government hospitals will be cancelled if Jpa scholars are not employed within 6 months after they graduate?
Does this mean that the 10-year bond will cancelled?
Ya that’s true at least for the JPA scholars for engineers. However don’t think gov is going to let you go like that. They will give preference of the vacancies for JPA scholars to make use of them for at least 10 years. When the no of vacancies are limited, the one who suffer will be those without JPA scholarships, not from local public universities and those from non western medical schools like Russia, Indonesia.
Not as far as I know, for medicine. The government have to give you a job. If not, how do you pay back the bond?
Thanks a lot for the replies.Really appreciate it.
Reading about all this indeed is depressing, especially for a med student like me. Is there anything we commonfolk can do about it?
Firstly, register to vote. Make a strong student association (like the one under MMA) and bring up the issue to the parents and public. Only then the government will listen. Hopefully
Up till this point, no doctor under JPA has ever been denied a job, and released. However, many have been given deferment, to allow them to stay on in the country they studied (which basically means UK/Oz/NZ, I don’t think anyone wants to stay back in Russia/India/Indonesia).
In future, when the compulsory service is abolished, and there are not enough jobs, it is possible they will release the scholars from their bond, like they do frequently with the other professions.
nowadays, JPA do not allow students to stay back anymore. Only MARA students can stay back as they are not bonded.
MARA is a loan, while JPA is a scholarship. Therefore, with scholarship, one has to come back and serve the bond. Not with MARA, as long as they can pay back slowly. Also, if the person gets 2nd upper or 1st class hons in the final exam, the loan will automatically be converted to scholarship without bond.
They don’t have to pay back slowly. You only pay back 10% of the loan, for MARA
Speaking of MARA, this is a direct statement off the Pejabat MARA London website at http://www.maralondon.gov.my/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=61
…….
Once again, we would like to welcome you to the United Kingdom. We would also like to wish you “ALL THE VERY BEST” and “GOOD LUCK” in starting a new life here. We hope you will be successful and will return home to serve your family, religion, race and nation.
…….
And so after 55yrs of independance and Jib’s 1-Malaysia rhetoric, how disappointing to find that MARA still finds it fit to emphasize service to religion and race. We will never be a united Malaysia until we learn to think of ourselves as Malaysians first and foremost.
“You only pay back 10% of the loan, for MARA”
blardy hell… 😦
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