Last week, I wrote on the situation of internship in Australia . I was also informed via a comment in this blog that Ireland has also shut their doors to international student graduates :
“If you are thinking of working in Ireland, you might just as well forget about it now. The Irish government is so stupid as they dont even take their own Non EU graduates to work with them. They rather employ Non EU students from Polish medical schools. Majority of us, the Non EU students who graduated this year didn’t get a job because our grades are lower from those Non EU who studied in Poland who don’t even know how the Irish system works. To make matter worst, we paid 295 Euros for the application and later found out we didn’t get a job. The irish government is making money from that. They didn’t reply to any of our emails, calls and they treat us like rubbish. SO my advice is, don’t go to Ireland for medical education. Go to anywhere else in europe like Poland, Romania, Slovakia where everything is cheaper, score a first class and apply to Ireland. And dont forget to pay your income tax at 40% per month. Oh, they are increasing the income tax again this year. Good luck and all the best!”
Now, UK is also facing the same situation. The news below appeared in UK 3 months ago : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9274753/Up-to-1000-new-doctors-could-face-unemployment.html. Their situation seem to be more critical then Australia! I was also informed via this blog that since April 2012, the UK government has stopped graduates from UK universities from seeking employment in UK :
“It is not only medicine that is affected, now graduates from all other courses in UK (international students) are affected, as the UK government had closed their Tier 1 (post study work) since 5 April 2012. They cannot stay on to gain some overseas (UK) working experience before returning to their home countries. Many (especially those graduated in June 2012) are very disappointed”
This situation in Australia, UK and Ireland will only make the glut back home even more critical as almost all graduates from these countries will be returning to Malaysia to seek employment. This, coupled with the so-called “unlimited MQE attempts” in 16 medical schools for graduates from unrecognised universities will only make the matter worst. It looks like the jobless scenario is definitely going to happen in near future. Someone once argued with me in this blog that doctors can never become jobless according to his father! Well, if it can happen in Australia and UK, please don’t bet it will not happen here.
I seriously hope the government would take drastic actions to stop this from happening. One way is to stop sending students overseas and if anyone goes overseas, they must sit for an exam upon returning ( this was proposed by our ex-DG but was shot down by cabinet). Some of the medical schools in Malaysia should be encouraged to merge which will in turn reduce the intake of students. MMC will then be able to concentrate more on the quality of the local medical schools. Unfortunately, all these steps are politically incorrect for our ruling government. Money is more important in the name of education hub. Then our DG will say exactly like what our DCA DG said ” the authorities would not limit or reduce the number of medical schools or the intake of student as they are private entities which do not receive any subsidy or assistance from the government” !! WTH………………
The government never promises a job for everyone. So, it is up to the public to make an informed decision. Unfortunately, our public is still so obsessed with making their children a doctor by hook or crook, hoping their future is secured. Another piece of advise : If you want to migrate, please do not do medicine!
Selamat Hari Raya 2012………………….
Up to 1,000 new doctors could face unemployment
Up to 1,000 new doctors will face unemployment next year as there are too few training places available, it has been warned.
8:30AM BST 19 May 2012
Official projections from the Department of Health body in charge of medical education shows that hundreds of medical graduates will be without a job next year, the Telegraph has learned.
The number of places in medical schools has been expanded since 2002 with the aim of the UK becoming self sufficient in doctors.
However, applicants from within the EU and a shortage of training posts means that for the first time there is a genuine prospect of doctors being unemployed.
It costs the UK taxpayer, £260,000 to put each medical student through university and each student graduates with debt averaging £70,000.
The issue is being raised at the British Medical Association’s junior doctors conference in London.
Also the Commons Health Select Committee will publish its report on education, training and workforce planning next week which is expected to criticise ‘boom and bust’ approaches to training with budgets raided to pay off deficits.
UK graduates leave medical school qualified as a doctor but must complete a foundation year, which is effectively an apprenticeship where they work under close supervision, before they are allowed to join the General Medical Council register and practice freely.
Dr Ben Molyneux, deputy chairman of the Junior Doctors Committee said: “This is a problem that has been getting steadily worse in recent years and for the first time next year we certainly cannot guarantee that there will not be medical unemployment.
“Even the optimistic projections are that hundreds of graduates could be without a foundation place and the worse case projections are up to 1,000.
“It is a tragedy not only for the taxpayer but also on a personal level, these doctors graduate with a small personal mortgage of debt.”
He said medical graduates would be left in limbo because without their foundation year they cannot work as doctors abroad and would be faced with treading water and applying again the following year, increasing the pressure for places.
“Most would end up leaving the profession,” he said. “These are people who are going to provide service for the NHS for the next 40 years. It would be a drop in the ocean of the NHS budget to provide foundation places for them, ” Dr Molyneux said.
The projections have been made by Medical Education England, the body in charge of postgraduate education and training of doctors.
There are more than 7,600 foundation places this year and the numbers of graduates leaving medical school only slightly exceeded that number.
However next year it is expected there will be up to 1,000 more medical students graduating than foundation places for them to work in.
The average starting salary for a foundation year doctor is £22,500 in England.
A court case due to be heard in Prague in October could exacerbate the problem as a medical school there has argued that its graduates should be allowed to apply for foundation place jobs in Britain on the same footing as UK graduates.
However in the Czech Republic and many other European countries, doctors graduate from medical school having effectively already completed a foundation year which could put them at an advantage when applying for jobs in Britain.
Pagalavan's Avatar 
Thanks Dr. Paga
I’m definitely sharing this in my blog.
http://chroniclesofaloner.com/2012/08/17/jobless-doctors/
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Hi Dr Paga. Your blog is an eye opener for me. However, I don’t have a choice because I am a sponsored student. Therefore, I have to pursue medicine. I just finished my A level, and is offered do medicine either in ireland (twinning with AUCMS) and india usm-kle – under USM- (full course). Based on ur experience, which one is better? I really hope you can give ur opinion regarding this matter. Thank you.
What you mean you got no choice? Did they force you to do medicine?
Both have not produced graduates but I would suggest USM.
I choose to do medicine at the first place. Reading ur blog makes me scared about the future. My sponsor allow me to change the course, but I couldn’t find any related courses that give security in the future.
No job can give security in the future. Nothing is guaranteed in life. Do a course that you have real interest and passion and you will succeed. Otherwise, you will just waste your life. Never do anything for job security as things changes all the time.
Hi there. I’m not sure about AUCMS in Ireland for next year. I’ve heard from MARA officer in Ireland saying that this year is the last batch MARA will sponsor AUCMS students to Ireland. Last year was the first batch. And from what I’ve heard, one third of them have to resit for autumn paper. Some of them even failed all the subjects in year 1! The lecturers are also making complaints. Either the quality of the students has gone low or the college is making more profits I don’t know (€200 to resit autumn paper). Last year there were ~70 AUCMS students in my place! Another kampung Malaysia in overseas!
I feel the quality of students are going down!! The 36 medical colleges in this bolehland is fighting hard to get students and introducing all kind of “self assessed” foundation studies to attract students.
usm-kle as in you would have to study in India or Malaysia? I am a graduate from India, and for me, India’s education system for medicine is not as good as what people think it is.
5 years in India. Oh really? Most people said India is ideal place to study medicine.
I would say it all depends on which med school of India that you are attending. The top ones have very limited quota for foreigners and students from certain castes. Admission for most of the seats is based on a common entrance exam, so Indian students who could make it to the top med schools are basically smart if not brilliant.
Some may argue that the teaching style is very traditional as most of the colleges are still following the subject-wise system, but I do not see any problem with that, as evidenced by a good number of high scorers in exams like USMLE every year. That means students who are taught in the traditional way can still do well in the western system.
If you talk about clinical exposure then it would definitely not be lacking in India. In fact students start clerking cases from 3rd semester, which means there will be 3.5 years of clinical training, followed by a year of compulsory internship.
But I would not deny that there are shortfalls in the Indian medical education like egotism among the professors, lack of emphasis on medical ethics (especially in government hospitals), bribery which is common in most of the not-so-good colleges, and lack of international recognition.
Study in India with curriculum structure provided by USM.
It’s already too late, there’s nothing we can do about it, doctors are going to become jobless.
Seeing this scenario happens, I’m so glad that I quit medicine even although I spent 2 years studying it in public U. To all who really did medicine not because of their own will or interest, you should quit it, trust me, you’ll find it worth.
If this situation is happening in Malaysia in few years time, do you think that government sponsored students(either local/overseas) are privileged to be offered an internship post compared to private students? Let’s assume there is really not enough post for interns.
YES!! Definitely
Yup! If the govt had to give preferences for jobs, they would favour local public uni students and those that they have sponsored.
There will of course be a public outcry should this happen, because parents will have invested lots and lots of RM in their children’s education only to have no job at the end of it all. Then there is the fact that most sponsored students and those in local public unis are of a certain ethnic background, lending to more conspiracy theories.
I do not know how the govt will handle it. By saying there are not enough jobs, they are admitting that there is a glut and they approved too many medical schools. If they give everyone jobs, then everyone suffers professionally and you end up with poorly-trained doctors delivering poor patient care.
Either scenario is no good. If the govt was brave enough, they would take measures now to minimize the damage and reverse the trend. But I’ve never known this govt to do anything in the interests of the rakyat without lining their pockets with RM as well.
Nobody force you to take medicine. Parent should not make medicine as their first choice for their children career. They should not just admit their children into whatever medical schools available even if they are not recognized. By doing so you ate jeapodizing your children future and you should not blame others for getting your children into this state. So decide wisely for those who want to study medicine currently as 5 years from now the odds is your are unlikely to secure a job of you are not from a public medical schools. Those sponsored students may not get the job as well. Choose wisely, there are soapy more rewarding careers and one should not only consider medicine.
This is what we call “day-light discrimination”. The reason Malaysia will not progress is because of this mindset. Discrimination in broad daylight, and everyone tolerates it.
The best way to do it will be to have a national standardized exam. The top – regardless of race, family’s financial status, religion or university background, should be chosen.
Everyone knows this. When our Ex DG wanted to introduce common entry exam for all overseas graduates, it was shot down by cabinet. Everyone knows why. Thousands are still being sent by JPA, MARA and even Majlis Agama to do medicine overseas. I am sure you know the racial breakdown of these students.
I think the Guardian article is a bit of scaremongering. I think everybody got an F1 job this year, and based on information already given to final year med students in the UK, there should not be any problem in accommodating all graduating doctors in 2013 as well. There is no news from any authority that there will be a short fall in places, but just that in popular Deaneries like London ones, there will be up to 3 times the number of applicants than places. There is not going to be a surge in graduating numbers, as there has not been nay new medical school or expanded programmes 5 years ago. The only issue is applicants from the EU, and I think the newly introduced matching exercise (an exam) may deter applicants from Europe.
If anybody is interested, the exact numbers for 2012 (they just started work this month) in the 1st round application is, 7172 applicants for 7089 places. This I believe, includes applicants who graduated out of the uk med schools. There will be those who failed their finals, and will not be matched, There will be those who left the UK to do their housemanship elsewhere (I know a few who went to Singapore). So everybody got placed for 2012 F1. The figures for 2013 is not expected to be significantly different. There will be a SJT (Situational Judgement Test) which contributes 50% of the matching marks, and those who applied for the AFY positions will be interviewed. These new measures will make it more difficult for EU applicants.
I am sure UK will take necessary measures to give jobs to their graduates. However, same cannot be said for foreign students. The immigration law is being changed regularly and many are not getting a job due to this factor.
Their citizens will definitely be taken care of. That was the purpose of the immigration laws. Even before this, those who got FY post had to return after completing it as they could not get a post after that.
The figures include international students in British med schools, there is no distinction or discrimination between the two. As for the visa, FY is under Tier4 visa (ie student visa), and there is no problem getting that extension once an F1 offer is available.
However, after F2, then a further exercise of matching with a training programme is conducted. If an international student gets a match, then he/she applies for a Tier2 visa, which is a employer sponsored visa, and again, there is usually no problem with that. The probability of a match depends on both the doctor’s performance in FY, the Trust applied to, and the popularity of the specialty. Tier1 visa (post study work visa) is now cancelled.
I am seeing more and more self sponsored students returning home as they could not get a training post in UK. I am sure the competition is getting very tough. For JPA scholars, they have to come back anyway.
Quite a few JPA scholars stayed back to complete their FY, and some stayed back to specialise. I am not sure how they do this, but I do know people who paid off the bond, and I also know people who actually have JPA agreement to stay back.
Like I said, it can be competitive getting a popular discipline in a popular Trust, but likewise, if one choose an unpopular field, and don’t mind unpopular locations, it is not difficult. Also, it depends a lot of the performance, and if you are a 1st class Honours graduate with strong references, you can get almost anything. I know someone who got into Anaesthesia in the Royal Free rotation which is one of the most popular field and rotation to get into! The point is, they are transparent enough to consider non-UK, non-EU doctors already in the system as equivalent and select based on merit.
JPA do allow up to 4 years previously but I was told that it is not applicable anymore. Furthermore, from last year onwards, the new contract says that they must pay back the full amount if they do not return after graduating. It use to be only RM250K before.
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Most probably those JPA scholars who stayed back to complete their FY/training posts are those much earlier ones. I heard from some 2010 JPA scholars that they are not allow to stay on.
Are these messages conveyed to the policy makers? I feel worried…
You must be joking!
oh no… i mean the points from your articles, I mean our concerns…..not the reply sections …
The authority is well aware of this issues but they don’t care, as at the moment, they just want to make the people happy and fill their own pockets.
i was concerned when I read your mail…so i wrote to my son who is in the final year …there are some facts that are wrong…
as mentioned by one of the readers above SJT is a newly introduced exam to match FY1 students.
There has been upto date no FY1 who has not been placed in UK
UK graduates do not apply for TIER 1 visa
students and graduates contine of TIER 4 Visa..
subsequently postgraduation will depend on how your CV stands and whether you will be sponsored by the University to continue your education
I suppose JK an 48anagara has painted a right picture and one should look at the situation wholistically
Meanwhile studying Medicine in India is not that bad…depends where and why you want to do medicine. I have friends and colleagues who have done medicine in India and has obtained very good places in Australia, Baylors, Mayo’s….Determination and aim of doing medicine is important.
In conclusion, I would If you want to contribute to a field in Medicine… one should never close doors to doing medicine….you need to be hardworking, determined more than being intelligent..
If you would like to do medicine to serve in places like Africa or India..dedicated people can still do it
NOW IF YOU ARE DOING MEDICINE to make money that your parents have invested in…don’t waste time as this will never happen and you will curse yourself in doing a 5-9 yr course as you need to specialise at least for the next 4 yrs..
Thank you Dr Pagal for the blog but ……………..information must not be very negative…. as you may discourage many with good intentions.
ENJOYED DOING MEDICINE
Correction, postgrad training does not merely depend on your CV. It also depends on how many post are available and that only after these post are offered to UK citizens, PR and EEA citizens and deemed that there aren’t qualified person to fill that post, then it will be offered to other passport holders. So even if you grad from UK as a Malaysian, you are only treated as local up to F2 level, beyond that, you don’t have any advantage compared to international medical graduates. Therefore, you might not get a job even if your CV is outstanding if the number of applicants for the pool of training posts has sufficient locals in it, which is why it is near impossible to get a training post in opthalmology as a foreigner. It is somewhat easier in other specialties which are not so competitive. However, even if you get into training post at CT1/CT2 level, there is still no guarantee that you can progress to the specialty of your choice at ST3 level. For every level up application, your chances are slimmer. The main reason people are leaving the UK is not because of the F1/F2 level, but it is the unfair competition on training posts applications beyond that. The higher level it gets, the more difficult to secure posts. These days, there are so few new consultant posts around that a lot of people who have completed their training are forced to take up a registrar’s post, that the effect of shortage of posts are filtered down to junior levels.
Since last year, there was a warning in UK that there may not be enough internship post for their graduates. Even last year, some had to wait an extra 6 months to get a post. Generally, all their graduates are guaranteed a FY post as the number of graduates are well controlled by GMC based on the number of post available. It was the EU graduates that caused the problem. If you notice, the above article was published in May 2012. The SJT was just introduced to overcome this situation. Atleast, they are thinking in UK unlike our bolehland. Towards the end of the article, it was mentioned that a court case is going on to make EU graduates equal to UK graduates. Thus, anything can happen in the future. Whatever it is, it is not going to be as secured as before.
I do receive quite a number of emails of graduates who completed FY but could not get a job after that. Many did go to Singapore and some returned and joined the university hospitals.
I do agree with your final paragraph. NEVER do medicine for the wrong reasons. That is what I am trying to convey in this blog. Many of it may sound negative but the reality has to be told to the budding doctors so that they can make an informed decision. Even yesterday, I received an email from someone who wants to do medicine just for job security purpose and nothing else!
“and if you are a 1st class Honours graduate with strong references, you can get almost anything”
Dear 48mmaagm,
It is not true as the ruling of giving priority to UK citizens, PR and EEA citizens will still be imposed for all postgraduate training posts.
I agreed with Anaes SpR as I have family members and friends working in UK , ie for every level up application, your chances are slimmer. It is no longer easy to get a training post like what it used to be 10 years ago.
“if one choose an unpopular field, and don’t mind unpopular locations, it is not difficult.”
Hi 48mmaagm,
I agree it is perfectly fine to go for unpopular locations, but not an unpopular field if you do not have interest in it. You will not like your job and consequently will make you an unhappy person.
Having spending so much money (UK/Aus), working on contract basis, tough life with a lot of sacrifice, no family support, yet fail to get a training post of your choice can be a very frustrated experience, Or worse still could not get a training post!! Yet many who return home visiting relatives or friends just want to paint a rosy picture, but deep down they are unhappy and insecured.
For the record, please note that I am captured either under jk, or 48mmaagm, and I don’t know why it is so.
@anaes SpR and karen, your points are noted, but my point is simply that it is NOT impossible to get jobs beyond FY.
@drl, in real life, there are few doctors who dogmatically insist they want to be any particular specialist. Frequently, what one ends up as is determined by opportunities that came along. Of course, one should not get into disciplines one has no interest in, but mostly, one has a few interests, and one takes the one where opportunity comes knocking.
@48mmaagm, I did not say that it is impossible to get jobs beyond FY. Afterall, I am a Malaysian, grad in UK and in Anaes training post. But for every one of us who get a post, there are at least 3-4 who don’t. In the event that you do not get a training post, you will be forced to take a trust grade post in order to remain in the UK, which you will need a Tier 2 sponsor and only very few Trusts are willing to issue Tier 2 sponsorship. You can check out NHS jobs website. Most jobs will require you to declare that you do not need a Tier 2 sponsorship as a pre-requisite to application.
For those who do get jobs, you will be spending most of your time studying for exams, attending courses, doing audit and research on top of your clinical commitments. On top of that, you will rarely get to stay in the same place, which means relocation pretty much every year. And despite all these, you are still not guaranteed a post in the next level once you reach the end of your current training level.
It was easier for us when there was the option of Tier 1 visa, but without it, you will really struggle to stay if you do not get a training post. Therefore, you are talking of 7-8 years of uncertainty from CT1 level onwards.
For the record, foreigners who grad from UK are treated as IMG beyond F2 level. Before I was offered my ST3 post, I was informed that despite ranking 16 out of 22 for my deanery, I still have to wait until all the post are filled by locals before I was given my post. That is to say, if there are 22 post, and I am the only UK grad foreigner in that ranking, and the 23rd rank person is local, I will miss out on my post because the 23rd rank local will be given priority over myself. In that case, even if I have 1st class PhD, it still doesn’t guarantee a training post.
Just to give you an idea about the competition for training post. I was told that there are only 25 training post for urology in the whole UK for this academic year for roughly 200 applicants.
@anes spr, my original comments precedes yours, and was in general, responding to the negative news from the Guardian article, and hence is NOT a response to your reply. The way this site’s threading is done is very confusing.
I reiterate, my point was simply that it is possible still, to get training jobs, at this point. Of course it’s competitive, and there will be many people who will fail to get a job.
Of course, international students in British schools are now grouped as IMG, see my comments at the bottom. It would have been different if the court have not sided with the mostly ‘Asian’ (subcontinent) IMGs.
And finally, the limitations of the Tier 2 visa will make it more difficult for those who stayed on. The ones who got Tier 1 visas before it was cancelled are lucky.
If one is truly inclined on pursuing medical/surgical specialist training in the UK, there is another potential route around the problem of Tier 2 visa requirements. There exists the “Long Residence” clause which allows for settlement (PR) after 10 continuous years of lawful residence in the UK.
Notionally a student who spends 2 years in A-levels, 5 years in medical school and then 2 years in Foundation Training only has one further year to accrue under Tier 2 before becoming eligible for settlement.
Once settled (PR), the individual is grouped with UK/EU candidates for all job applications. Due to the length of specialist training, any UK medical school graduate who becomes a specialist trainee will invariably accrue the 10 years required for settlement.
Any non EU specialist trainee who intends to apply for a UK Consultant post will need to obtain PR. If you think it’s difficult to get a specialist training post with the Tier 2 visa issue, you can imagine that trying to compete for a Consultant post (whilst needing Tier 2 visa) will be a near insurmountable hurdle. Unless of course you are extraordinarily gifted and no one else can do what you can do… where upon I would advise you apply to Harvard instead!
Hi Jon,
After closing their tier 1 visa in April 2012, I heard from a friend in UK that there is a PLAN to exclude the 2 year A-level from the 10 years required for settlement. It means a medical student will only able to accrue 7 years upon completion of FY even though he did his A level in UK. I don’t know how true is this information.
Currently there is a trend towards restricting and/or reducing migrant entry into the UK. Last year, the previous “14 years of any legality” clause for Long Residence settlement was abolished. The rumour of excluding pre-university education time that you mention might well turn out to be true in due course.
Many 1st semester IMU-PMS students (2008 intake) were very upset when they heard that no internship would be guaranteed for medical students who went to UK after 2008. They were contemplating of going to Australia instead (at that time Australia was still silence on their glut). Later they were told that they could do internship but not specialization. (most probably because international students are cash cows for them, so they have to offer internship to attract them). This show that UK already had the internship problem (maybe not very serious) way back in 2008.
Not so much on internship but more on training posts. These ‘outdated’ news do indicate that problems had already existed in 2007 – 2008.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7171601.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7230987.stm
These news reports refer to the issue on International Medical Graduates competing with locals. These are doctors who graduated outside UK/EU.
International students studying in the UK has always been considered ‘local’ students. Unfortunately, their solution was to invoke EU rules about recruitment priorities, which place non-EU residents last, And unfortunately, international students who graduated from UK med schools are pooled together with the IMG in this classification.
If the courts have not overturned the initial plan to give priority to ‘local’ graduates (which would have included international students), this problem would not have arise.
hi, dr. i’m a final year medical student @ russia, govt-sponsored.
reading your site does scare us on what’s happening to our healthcare system (the fish is rotten from its head), and the fact that im studying @ russia scares me even more..
during my first/second year, i’ve witnessed the ‘foot-in-the-mouth’ syndrome when i joined few other friends to a meeting held by our sponsor for discussion. students did voiced out the problem regarding the quality of education we’re receiving @ russia and came up with suggestion to stop sending students to russia.. they closed the issue by highlighting their aim to produce more bumiputra doctors yada yada yada and russia is the cheapest.. and now i’m in my final year (!)..
however, in these recent years, alhamdulillah, there are officers who are aware of this issue and are doing their best to prevent students from coming here..
what scares me the most is how am i going to be a good doctor, when we have poor training @ russia.. and of course, i cannot depend on my housemanship to get trained..
i am one of the demotivated students.. we were top scorers back in m’sia, but soon as we learn how poor the med school @ russia is, we are no longer interested in studying as we used to be.. going with the flow (just go to lectures eventhough it is in indecipherable russian, study to get the passing mark for exam, go for housemanship and try to survive) seems like the only option..
what can i do right now in my final yr to equip myself before HOship? study more, go clerk more patients without supervision/mentoring?
I got no answer for you. Having basic medical knowledge is important. This is the reason why you go to medical school for 5 years. Spend more time seeing patients, clerking and examining them. Of course you need someone to discuss the case with and to tell you whether you are heading the right direction. Housemanship is to teach you management of the patient and not to teach you how to read ECG etc etc.
The whole bumiputera thingy is the reason why our system is screwed, sorry to say. By right, the top students should be sent to the local public universities and NOT overseas. There are thousands of MARA scholars in Egypt, Russia and Indonesia. I got no idea what is the intention of sending so many students abroad when you have 36 medical schools in the country. I know many who do not have proper qualifications and I also know some students who were forced to do medicine by MARA despite applying for something else! The government only wants to see the numbers! The word “quality” is not in our government’s dictionary. Wonder why our politicians are sending their kids overseas to study and go overseas to seek treatment for as simple as rhinitis and physiotherapy?
hello doc..i just want to know ur opinion towards uitm MBBS programme..it has been about 9 years uitm run the programme..is there any possibility of discrimination of which university we will graduated from?
As far as I am concerned, it is UiTM which practices discrimination. Are you aware that UiTM is the only university in the world which accepts only 1 race?
Hehe..it seemed like i was asking the wrong question..but UiTM opened not only to malay students..uitm welcome other races too;iban,kadazan,etc..as long as they are bumiputera,right?what to do?i could say that it is a heritage passed from bumiputera ancestors..the government has slowly widen the opportunity for non-bumiputera to enter the educational institution which are specified for bumiputera only before i.e;MRSM,matriculation college..but truely speaking, non-bumiputera are awesome!most of non-bumiputera students conquer the top university..bumiputera students need to struggle
Healthy competition always produces better students. The government should release people from being in cocoons. Frankly, how many Sabah and Sarawak bumiputeras are there in UiTM? Very minimal. Do you know that UiTM is the biggest university in Malaysia producing more then 100 000 graduates a year? Fully funded by tax payers which is contributed by all races, mainly the business and Chinese community! Too much protection will not take you anywhere.
The newer generation like yourself should change the future.
hi., do u think studying medicine in india a good idea?? is it well worth it?? or just studying in m’sia will do??
It depends on what you mean “worth it”. There are good uni and bad unis in India as well. If you ask me , better choose good unis in Malaysia instead.
hi dr.
First and foremost, reading your posts and going through all the comments are such an overwhelming exposure and experience yet very informative especially for me that will soon be undertaking medicine for future career.Having said that, i believed that i still uphold such interest in the medicine field even after being bombarded with those solid reasons that the trending of this field is changing in the next few years. Im pretty much also sure that i am not money-driven nor wanting to have a luxurious life from this profession which ensures me to choose medicine for future undertakings.
i just finished my IB studies and qualified to pursue medicine overseas. (Yes, im a MARA sponsored student) However the placement of securing into medical schools is very very limited and i only managed to secure a placement at the AUCMS twinning programme with ireland. Well, some of ur comments stated that this program is somewhat not a preferential to u dr, and may i know why? i’m curious to know whether i’m just one of those unlucky ones to be a victim of money-driven education since it is a private college and the program is new. (seems a bit naive, i know)
Despite of wherever it is, i decided to pursue medicine and wanting to become a doctor. i needed help to plan out my routes to become specialists as surgeon and reading ur posts surely have been a helping hand for me. I realized that there will be a surplus of doctors by the time i graduated and the places for postgrad studies would also becomes limited. Despite of the strong urge to become a doctor, jobless future would have scared the hell out of anyone even if being a doctor means the world to him. I’m really worried over the fact that posts for internship would be severely less and chances are very small. i wanna ask, is there anything i could do during medical schools that will help me to increase the chances for me to do HO’s after i graduated, even if a little bit?
And as for postgrads studies, generally what i understood from ur posts n etc is that taking mrcs would seem to be a better option with reference to Master’s program as it is internationally recognized. However, mrcs is not a speciality in malaysia and only an entrance exam to do surgical training in Singapore to obtain frcs (correct me if im wrong dr) Only then we could practice as surgeon in malaysia or any other countries, right dr? My question is, do aucms-ucc program is internationally recognized? This is due to the fact that if i were to do surgical training in singapore, i need to have an internationally recognized MBBS. Plus, this is pretty much an option to prepare me if the master’s program is so limited by that time.
Or is there any other way to become a surgeon in this country dr? 🙂
Please help me on this matter dr. I need a plan as being lost at an upcoming tough times is the last thing that i want for my life.
I look forward to your reply, thanks in advance dr 🙂
Why I doubt AUCMS? because it is the only university in the world which offers 5 medical programme !! They claim they are the only university to do that and proud of it!! That itself will tell you what I mean. Whether the degree is recognised internationally or not, depends on, from where you are going to graduate. If you are going to graduate from Ireland with the Irish degree then it may be recognised in Singapore. If you do your clinical training in malaysia, then it will not be recognised.
MRCS is NOt a specialist degree but will give you an advantage when you apply for Master’s. There is no other way to become a surgeon in malaysia, other then the local Master’s.
Whether you will get a job or not depends on the availability of post. There is nothing you can do about it at the moment. The government might introduce an entrance exam if the necessity comes. However, being a MARA scholar will probably give you a better chance of getting a job compared to self sponsored students.
Aimey92, i was an ib student as well. I know mara students have so many options. They can apply to 5 countries (uk, ireland, czech, new zealand, australia)which is ridiculous compared to jpa students who can only apply to the uk. The decision to sponsor which student in which country depends on your academic performance, interview with the mara teachers, and, even though they dont mention this but i noticed it happening quite a lot, your ‘connections’. So if you are only able to secure a place in aucms, you shd hv worked harder. (you are already lucky enough to be sponsored to do ib) i believe theres no other way for you to go unless you break your deal with mara and pay for your own fees. Or if you are resourceful enough, apply to uk university on your own. I can assure you mara always sponsor malays who got a place in uk or ireland (again, due to the need to ’empower’ a certain race) Nevertheless, like dr p said, mara students are less likely to be jobless since the govt will gv priority over the students that they sponsor.
Medical student, i think things might have changed over the years. Mara scholars could only choose one country only and they’ll be bonded until they got placement in that country, doesn’t matter if it’s twinning or full course, which exactly happened to me and my friends despite of excellent performance in their academic years. This is due to the fact that the management needs to ensure all of the medical students-to-be (which is very very numerous) secured a placement, at least one. This is the reason why the placement for medical schools is very limited and sometimes left us the one and only choice like aucms. Jpa, on the other hand, is already bonded with a particular country as how the sponsors decided for them. So generally i think it’s pretty much the same. And perhaps it is as u said it, my efforts were just not enough.
Nevertheless, really, the way u made this program sounded like it is not a proper place to pursue medicine, at all. HAHA well it’s the only choice i’ve left with and there’s no other thing i could do unless striving for it.
As how they would say, if you don’t get what’s best, then make the best out of what u got 😉
1. The JPA scholars also have to find admission to a medical school on merit, there is NO special arrangements, and the choice is limited to UK.
2. You are wondering why, in spite of ‘excellent performance’ you are unable to secure a acceptance directly into one of the medical schools. The reason is very simple, your ‘excellent performance’ is nothing, as there are thousands of other students with equally good, if not better, results, from all over the world, competing to get the few places available for International students. Therefore, thousands apply to each University, all with straight As (or equivalent), and a few tens will get a place. In the UK at least, the A-Levels/IB results mean little, as everybody are straight A students, it’s the Personal Statement, the UKCAT/BMAT scores and the Interview that will decide who gets a place.
This is called meritocracy.
Hi JK,
There are lots of medical schools in Australia and NZ with JPA scholars, so they are not just limited to the UK.
There are special arrangements in terms of ‘reserved places’ for JPA scholars in each med school, based on agreements between JPA and the med school itself. The scholars then compete amongst themselves, so the better ones usually end up at the more sought-after universities.
You are right that they must meet each university’s minimum criteria but, in some cases, most of the other students in that med school far exceed the minimum criteria.
I heard that due to the weak pound vs the high AUD, JPA students are now told to choose UK instead of Aus.
Nav, there is no more JPA scholarship to Australia since the SPM batch of 2010. It still however remains available for mara.
As for reserved places, I am not aware there is still such an arrangement. There was in the past, with Monash, and the NZ schools. Mara may still have some arrangement. AFAIK, JPA scholars need to compete with the rest of the world’s students for International places. Yes, generally, the cut off for International places is lower than domestic students in Australia, but it is still way over the published minimum.
In any case, the AUD is prohibitive, and there are very few International places nowadays, as half of the Aussie Med Schools are graduate entry.
Thanks for the info 48mmagm. The youngest JPA scholar I know is a 1st year house officer in NZ so would have sat their SPM quite a while back.
I personally tell the JPA scholars I meet overseas not to go back straight after med school because:
1. They will be contributing to the glut in Malaysia
2. Prospects for getting into postgrad training are usually better in UK/Aus/NZ, compared to Malaysia, if you have graduated from that country
3. They would better serve Malaysia by going home as specialists (or at least with more clinical experience overseas even if not completed specialisation)
There is of course the argument about tax-payer money etc. I think those are very emotional arguments because of the race bias in selecting JPA students. Fact of the matter is that they will be contributing to the glut if they go home immediately so it makes sense for them to only go home after specialisation, since that is the area we are truly short-staffed. If of course they decide to never go home, then they should pay back the fees with interest.
The number of sponsored malaysian doctors overseas is quite significant. Currently, most of them return to the country after they completed their intern/housemanship/foundation year primarily because they want to skip the compulsory KKM housemanship and difficulties in continue postgraduate training from PGY2 onwards. Some if not few return after completing MRCPs/CMT/BPT/BST whatever basic training years required because getting into advance training is another hurdle.
Very rarely you have sponsored student who completed all their training including specialist training who return to Malaysia. Those who choose to return ..return for family/personal reasons. Most of them are comfortable working overseas because of the culture and societal attitude in general and the non-monetary perks you get as a specialist i.e respect/research/leadership roles etc.
Given the current job climate with the HO glut and the inevitable MO glut and ultimately postgraduate training glut it would be futile to return home as a fresh graduate unless you want to become a generalist/chronic MO and works in KKM and district/rural hospitals as Malaysia’s housemanship training is supposed to make a competent independent generalist.
The future of the job market in Malaysia will be flooded with local medical graduates + ex-ussr+india+middle east + indonesia + china. This is inevitable. They will make the majority of the workforce..some of em will go into admin work and specialist training and become your masters. So be prepared when this happen…the belgian grads in the old days with their numbers manage to make the training period recognized as specialist training…it is just a matter of time when graduating from ex-ussr states is regarded as a norm and the gold standard of medical training.
Hi Dr. what about dentistry? Govt also sponsors many students to study dentistry abroad. will they become jobless in future
I can’t comment much on this BUT the prospect for private dental clinics is still OK. Pls read my post over here : https://pagalavan.com/2012/04/05/2011-pharmacist-2012-dentist-20-doctors/
Eventually, it will happen to dentist as well.
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Hi Dr. Paga,
I’m a form 3 student studying in Malaysia but may I ask is there a big potential that working as a surgeon in malaysia is going to pay well in the future? Better than Aus or UK? My mom wants to send me to Australia for medicine when I turn 18 but when I tell her that I may face unemployment when I study med oversea especially Australia, she said then if Australia oversea qualified doctor face unemployment the same as UK then I could only be a doc in Malaysia which is badly corrupted? And should I be an orthopaedic surgeon or cosmetic/plastic surgeon? Which one would pay better? Hope to get your reply soon, tyvm
Please ask your mum to read all the relevant posts in Dr Paga’s blog.
I’m new to Dr. Paga’s blog, well my mom is an enterprise resource planning consultant so she won’t have time to take a look at this blog but I will take more time checking out dr Paga’s blog. My mom insists me to study med in Australia though.
Do what you are interested. Don’t do something which you are not interested or don’t know anything about. Your mother is not a doctor and thus she would not know anything about this field.
I’m sure she can spare an hour of her time to help decide on her son’s education and career prospects. But you can do so yourself and come to an informed choice together.
Concentrate on your secondary school studies, and enjoy your youth and school days, trust me, it will be one of the best times of you life. You are too young to be thinking about all this. Tell your mother she is being unrealistic.
My mom is not unrealistic, I understand she doesn’t want her sons to suffer in Malaysia because of the government, do you know how non-bumiputera suffer? Even my father apply for some sort of license basically need e.g. RM100, but to guarantee you get it, you need to pay more e.g. RM400. Australia is good, we have some houses there around Sydney and some estate area.
The unrealistic part is ‘why do medicine ‘ if your intention is to migrate? It is not as easy as your mother thinks.
Oh, I wanted to study med not my mom force me, actually at first they keep on push me to become doctor, introducing me some of the doctors to me, telling me how challenging medicine course it is. And I’m good in science and maths, I always score A+ or top 3 highest In school, I want to challenge medicine since so many people say it’s not easy still I want to go for medicine
Well, you can read my blog and decide. BTW, nowadays, in true Malaysia Boleh spirit, you don’t need to be a A* student to do medicine
“Do you know hot the non-bumiputera suffer?”
While no one here will deny there is institutionalised racial discrimination in Malaysia, I suspect that if your family owns ‘some houses around Sydney,’ you are not suffering very much.
I don’t want to be too harsh on you. You are only 15 yet you have taken the initiative to find things out on your own. I commend you for that.
You need to decide on a few things. What exactly do you want in life? Studying medicine in Australia or the UK will probably make you comfortable financially but not super-rich. This is of course only if you get to stay there after you graduate, and get to do your postgraduate training there – both can be done but not guaranteed. Bankers, successful businessmen, financial executives and corporate lawyers earn much more.
Different people have different sources of motivation. If you want to become an orthopaedic or plastic surgeon purely because of the financial incentives, that is up to you. You should know however that it takes 5-6 years of medical school, 2-3 years of working, then 6-8 years of postgraduate training. That’s possibly 17 years after A-levels. You will be in your mid-thirties (maybe late thirties), having worked 50-60 hours per week on average. And this is all assuming that you can even get on to training, which is extremely competitive. For example, did you know that this year the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons halved the number of orthopaedic trainees it usually takes in because there are so few jobs available for newly-qualified orthopaedic surgeons in Australia and New Zealand? No one predicted this 7 years ago when these new specialists got into training and no one can predict the situation in 15 years time.
My advice to you is to do medicine if you think you will enjoy it. It is ok to have ambitions, but keep your mind open to other possibilities as you experience the different specialties during medical school and while working as a junior doctor. Unless world economies collapse, you will still be comfortable as a doctor in Australia/UK as long as you have a job, so you might as well do something you are interested in.
Suffering because of government 😦
Next year onward, maths and science will be in malay edition OMG
It’s not money or not, I want something challenging 😀
Firstly, I think you are clueless about medicine. Secondly, you should spend more time reading this blog. All the answers are there. Please read all the articles under “For Future Doctors” page.
NEVER do medicine for money! That will be my first advise. You will regret it for sure.
What pay a surgeon gets depends on which country you work and whether you are talking about private or government sector.
As for Malaysia, all surgeons in government sector are paid the same depending on your grade. As for private sector, you do not get paid! YOu earn whatever that you charge your patients and these charges are controlled by the government.
Orthopaedic surgeon? Do you know that the only way to become one in malaysia is via the local Master’s program and it is the most saturated surgical field at the moment? Pls read my articles………
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Hello Dr. thank you very much , I really want to do my houseman shift in UK or Ireland so it’s 2015 is it still hard for me ? 😐
Firstly, is your degree recognised in UK or Ireland?
sorry to reply very late
it’s in Ireland 🙂
sorry for being so late Doctor,I got busy but I’ll just do my internship in Egypt, but If I could get a chance I’d love to go to UK, so not recognized yet.
Hi, I live in London at the moment and am about to complete year 13 (final A-level year). At this point the prospect of getting into med-school here seems bleak as the competition is high but I am very determined. I’m not interested in a gap year if I don’t get in this year, also I’ve wanted to live in Malaysia as a future plan. Since Malaysian medical schools seem to be doing well in the ranking charts, I have considered applying.
I wanted to ask your opinion, is it worth moving to Malaysia to study medicine (since I was planning on settling elsewhere after med school anyway) or should I wait it out, maybe try the biomedical science route to get into a med school here? If you have any opinions about other med schools abroad (not UK, USA or Australia) I’d love to know.
Any information will be much appreciated.
Frankly, coming back to Malaysia to do medicine is not a good idea. None of our degrees are recognised in UK except Numed. But getting a job in UK is almost slim for foreigners .
I think the IMU-PMS pathway is doable though
And you can apply for FY in the UK if you graduate from one of the UK PMSs
yes, if you graduate in UK
Hi Dr., I just wanna ask, how’s the doctors employment issue in Australia and UK lately compared to 2012? Did it get better? Thanks.
Please read my latest articles!
it’s worst! please read my latest articles
Hi Doctor. I would like to ask what is the pros and cons of working in government/private hospital? I am deciding whether to take up JPA loan as we would have to be bonded for 10 years or pay back the loan fully. Thanks.
Irrespective of how your studies are funded, you will still need to work for the government, 2 years as Houseman, and then 2 years compulsory service. If you want to specialise, you will still need to continue in the gov service, as the majority of masters students are “MoH sponsored”. All this of course may change in future.
There are few jobs for non specialist doctors in private hospitals. And many private hospitals want some clinical experience post specialist training before they will accept into their staff, between 2 to 5 years post specialisation experience.
In the bigger scheme of medical training, a 10 year bond passes easily, just fulfilling the standard training requirements. The only issue with the current JPA “scholarship” terms is, employment with the gov from now on is NOT guaranteed, and you may still need to pay up your loan fully, if the gov is unable to offer you a job. Nobody knows how this excess production of doctors will pan out.
Provided I get the job, is it possible for me to do a master overseas taking into consideration the 10-year bond?
If your degree is NOT recognised elsewhere, you will not be able to get a job overseas unless you sit and pass their entrance exams! Again, please spend some time reading all my articles under For Future Doctors page.
there is NO such thing as doing housemanship in private hospitals. If you intend to specialise, you would be spending atleast 10 years in the government sector anyway. 4 years compulsory service is already in government service. Please read this blog from A to Z (For Future Doctors page). All answers are there.
Alright. Thanks.
Hi Dr, since the restructuring of the Budget 2016,my hopes of doing medicine overseas is dashed as I am a JPA Bursary scholar. I have no choice but to choose a private medical school locally to study. So far,I have two offers, one is IMU and the other is NUmed. I read your blog that NUmed is recognised in UK. Does that mean it has a better advantage over IMU? Your professional advice is appreciated. Thanks
IMU local or PMS? NuMed although “recognised” by GMC, there is no chance of doing FY in UK, although they will recognise housemanship done in some hospitals in Msia as equivalent.