Here we go again. It is the month where both SPM and STPM results are announced. I will usually see a surge in my blog visits and various comments and emails will be sent to ask for advise. Despite all the answers being available in this blog, people simply don’t read. They expect to be spoon-fed like their school days.
Today, The Star wrote several reports on unqualified students going abroad to do medicine (see below). Yes, it is still happening and agents are still going after our “uninformed and ignorant” society who determined to make their child a “Dr” by hook or crook. Just take a look at one of the emails I received today (the student did not fulfil the minimum SPM qualification):
“we went to edu fair held in midvalley n met some ‘experts’ from XXXX college. Whr he guaranteed 100%seat confirmed in Indonesia,India .Russia.Poland ..N etc…no need repair xxxxxx results…Foundation in 6 months n can enter any university of our choice in Indonesia by August 2016.“
So, what The Star reported today is the reality. Many fall into this trap. Let me inform you guys that first of all I DO NOT consider SPM as a university entry exam. It is NOT a pre-university course. The reason why MMC has to come up with this is due to the fact that we have too many dubious foundation courses being conducted by the colleges. The exams, marking scheme and standards are set by the colleges themselves with no standardisation. Only standardised Pre-U courses like STPM, Matriculation, A level, IB etc can supersede SPM results. With the standards of SPM nowadays where thousands can score 8As, why are we even considering “Bs”!! Unfortunately, MOE did not want to increase the requirement to 5As as suggested by MOH and MMC. It is all about politics in Malaysia!
Please be informed that due to shortage of post, MMC has clearly informed that only after SPA offers you a job, you will be given the Temporary Registration. SPA has been given the task to filter the candidates. So, those who do medicine without NOC aka minimum requirement, will likely not get a job for housemanship. Those who go to unrecognised university will not be able to sit for MQE examination if you do not possess the minimum qualifications. I hope ignorant parents and students will understand this before spending huge amount of money.
Then , there was this grandiose suggestion by MOE (not MOH !!) that private hospitals should be considered for housemanship !!. Why the hell is MOE talking about this in the first place? They have no jurisdiction in deciding which hospitals should be used for housemanship etc. It is MOH and MMC who decides. MOE has realised that they had messed up the entire medical profession in the name of education hub. BUT yet, they still do not want to admit the fact. Giving licences to shop-lot medical schools and only concerned about their KPI which is all about the numbers!
I had written about using private hospitals as housemanship training in November 2015. It is not feasible as the system does not allow it to be used as such. Our DG has made some statement in his Facebook page as below:
Firstly, people must understand how private hospitals function. Consultants are not employed by the hospital. There are NO MOs for inpatients. MOs are only stationed to run the emergency department. Almost 90% of patients are paid by employees or medical insurance cards. Majority of patients come to private hospitals for comfort and to be treated by specialist/consultants. Private hospitals are profit driven. Any new private hospital will take at least 3-5 years to break even and another 3-5 years to get return of investment. So, it is almost 100% impossible to fulfil the criteria stated from (b) to (e)!! No private hospital is going to pay an HO a salary and indemnity insurance as it will be considered as wasted money. What do they get in return? No private hospitals are going to employ MOs in each department. IN private hospitals, no patient is going to allow an HO to clerk, examine, investigate and start initial treatment. They come for specialist treatment. No insurance company is going to pay for HO’s fee! Even paying consultant’s charges are being strictly regulated by insurance companies despite already regulated by the government! Which consultant is going to have enough time to supervise these housemen? Working in a private hospital for the last 6 years just tells me that I would not even have time to talk to a houseman if I have any!
4 years ago, i wrote on issues where many private medical colleges were planning to have their own teaching hospitals. I gave my thoughts on the issue and why students should be careful in listening to the college’s marketing guys. None of these promised private teaching hospitals has materialised as of today (Monash, IMU, AUCMS, UCSI, Perdana). The reasons are simple! It is the same as above. I understand UTAR and MSU are now in the process of building a private hospital. No private hospitals employ medical officers to run their inpatient or outpatient services. It is all specialist driven. All patients are paid by insurance. I know one private medical college which has bought over a private hospital but did not use it for teaching medical students. Reality is different and using it for teaching medical students may be suicidal to their reputation. Building a hospital and running it are 2 different issue. It is very much easier to build but to get the return of investment is totally a different story. No private hospital is going to spend money on unnecessary expenses which include paying HOs and MOs. They are not charity organisations. The medical cost is escalating exponentially.
It looks like MOE, MOH and MMC are blaming each other! For years I have been talking about this but no one bothered. I was actually invited to moderate the forum between MMI(Malaysian Medic International) and DG yesterday but I was only informed about 2 weeks ago. I was unable to make it as my mother’s knee replacement surgery was last week and I had to take leave for that.
May the drama continue………….
PETALING JAYA: Desperate to do medicine, many unqualified Malaysian students are going abroad to get their degrees.
Ministry of Higher Education (MOHE) director-general Datuk Prof Dr Asma Ismail said the ministry was asked to verify the SPM results of a batch of students currently enrolled in a foreign university in the region.
“The university wanted to know if the students met the ministry’s minimum requirement for a ‘No Objection Certificate’ (NOC).
“We checked and found that they did not qualify. There are, however, no reports of fake or forged documents,” she told the Sunday Star.
Dr Asma, however, declined to reveal the number of students involved and the location of the university.
She was responding to claims that students with Ds and Es for science subjects, those from the arts stream, those without the NOC and those who failed the entrance exams, were among those studying medicine and dentistry abroad.
The Sunday Star received complaints that unscrupulous agents here could be falsifying SPM result certificates and NOC.
Students wanting to pursue medical courses overseas must get NOCs from the ministry.
The issuance of the certificates is based on the students having the same minimal entry qualifications as stipulated for entry to local universities.
“We are aware of unqualified students going abroad but we cannot take action as it’s beyond our jurisdiction. The intake of students is handled by the universities abroad.
“We have dealt with complaints of document falsification in the past. The ministry has lodged police reports and the cases are now under police investigation,” she said.
Dr Asma said falsifying official government documents was a serious offence, adding that anyone with information on forged or fake results should report to the MOHE, or in cases of SPM certificate forgery, to the Education Ministry, so that action could be taken.
The Malaysian Medical Association wants the Malaysian Medical Council (MMC) to investigate the allegations.
Its president Dr Ashok Zachariah Philip said the complaints exemplified loopholes in the system.
“Under the existing law, the Health Ministry must give Malaysians with recognised degrees posts for housemanship.
“The problem is when unqualified students do medicine in less discriminating colleges.
“Given that these colleges are willing to bend the rules and may not have good facilities or faculties, the shortcomings of less qualified students won’t be addressed,” he said.
On Tuesday, the MMC urged MOHE to impose more stringent entry requirements for medical courses to arrest the deteriorating standards of foreign university graduates.
In response to The Star’s articles on the medical graduates’ glut and poor performance of graduates from some medical schools abroad, MMC president Datuk Dr Noor Hisham Abdullah said minimal entry qualifications for undergraduate courses were determined by the ministry.
Dr Noor Hisham, who is also Health director-general, said MMC monitored local university students without minimal qualifications but did not have the authority to regulate their entry into medical courses in universities abroad.
He said many foreign universities ignored the NOC for minimal entry qualifications and took in students with lower qualifications or circumvented the requirement by conducting their own foundation courses, many of which were found to be of dubious standards.
A UNIVERSITY in a neighbouring country is accepting unqualified students for its medical and dentistry programmes, a student who only wanted to be known as Jade, 21, claims.
There’s a lot of hanky-panky going on, she suspects, alleging that a college in the Klang Valley sends students with Es and Ds in their science subjects to study there.
“The college – an agent for the university – told my friend with poor SPM results not to worry as it could easily be taken care of. Even the Higher Education Ministry’s (MOHE) Non-Objection Certificate (NOC) can be bought, although most Malaysian students there don’t have it. Arts students are also allowed to take up medicine and dentistry there,” she claims, sounding shocked.
She says many of her friends are struggling there because the syllabus and exams are not in English, despite being told otherwise.
Thina, 23, who paid a “large sum” to the college, backs the claims. He says he did not verify with the authorities claims that the university is recognised. At the time, all he could think of was the excitement of leaving to study abroad.
“Some aren’t even science stream students and they don’t have the NOC. I won’t be surprised if the number of qualified students are one out of 50. The college lures these unqualified students by assuring them that poor SPM results don’t matter and that the NOC can be bought for less than RM20,000.”
Although qualified to study medicine, he’s surprised that he “somehow got in” despite being unprepared for the university’s entrance exam. The Penangite, currently studying in another higher institution, left the university in his third semester.
The university’s system is extremely bad and students have to put up with rude and unprofessional lecturers, he complains, lamenting how even basic classroom facilities like fans, are non-existent. Alleging that fees were increased without notice or explanation, he says the college had promised to sort the matter out but later washed its hands.
“There’s no time limit to graduate – you can take up to nine years even, especially in the dental faculty. They assured me that I’d be able to complete my studies within 5½ years but I realised many were stuck up to seven or eight years. I’d rather not take my chances graduating from a university like that,” he shrugs.
Since 2012, there have been many complaints against the college and university on complaintsboard.com.
“Malaysians must be warned. I’m sure students studying there won’t come forward because they themselves aren’t qualified and wouldn’t want the Government to know.”
Urging the Government to act on the errant education providers, Jade worries about the quality of future healthcare professionals. She thinks it’s pointless for smart, hardworking students to pursue medicine or dentistry as “anyone can get in now”.
Brushing off the “baseless accusations” as the work of jealous competitors, a spokesperson for the college says it no longer recruits students for the “world-class university”, preferring to focus on its own courses and other local institutions.
“We don’t recruit students any more but because of our long-standing relationship, we help book examination halls for the university’s prospective candidates – that’s all. The university selects the students and handles all the paperwork. We’re not involved,” he clarifies, stressing that “such an established university wouldn’t accept fake or forged SPM certificates”.
“The university has a website. Everything is on the Internet. Do you think it’s so easy to fool people nowadays?”
Malaysian Medical Association president Dr Ashok Zachariah Philip wants the Health Ministry to consider a Clinical Aptitude Test for prospective medical and dentistry students. The law, he says, must be amended to ensure that anyone circumventing this requirement would not be employed by the Health Ministry.
Students must have the minimum qualification to read medicine whether locally or abroad, or there may be consequences particularly in employment opportunities later on, Health director-general and Malaysian Medical Council president Datuk Dr Noor Hisham Abdullah warns.
The MOHE cautions: Parents must be vigilant when choosing which university to send their child to. Do thorough research. There are many options out there that suit your child’s interests and qualification.
‘Additional student intakes and new programmes must stop’
KUALA LUMPUR: The moratorium imposed on new local medical schools over the past five years has not stopped the intake of more medical students.
This is because existing schools came up with new medical programmes and increased students’ intake, said Health director-general Datuk Dr Noor Hisham Abdullah.
For this reason, he urged the Ministry of Higher Education (MOHE) to not only extend the moratorium but also put a stop to new programmes and additional student intakes.
“We are not happy with just the moratorium. We want it to be extended with no more new programmes and no more increases in student intake,” he said at the Malaysian Medics International forum’s dialogue with the Health Ministry and Malaysian Medical Council (MMC) here yesterday.
Dr Hisham, who is also MMC president, said some schools had come up with multiple programmes with twinning arrangements overseas.
“From one course, they can have four or five programmes and increase the number of students,” he said.
Asked why local schools were allowed to increase their medical programmes as the Higher Education Minister in 2011, Datuk Seri Mohamed Khaled Nordin, had imposed the freeze, Dr Hisham said the moratorium was only for new medical schools.
The moratorium was effective from May 1, 2011 and would end April 30, this year.
MMC member Datuk Dr Abdul Hamid Abdul Kadir said there had been cases where MMC’s decision to cut down on the number of medical students had been overruled.
In one case, the MMC had allowed only 60 students instead of 100 for a local university based on its capacity for an offshore programme but this was overruled.
In response to the Higher Education director-general Datuk Prof Dr Asma Ismail’s statement on Friday that the numbers approved were determined by MMC and not the MOHE, Dr Hamid said it was not entirely true as it was a collaborative effort and MMC’s decisions had sometimes been reversed.
Dr Hamid said that it was crucial to cap the number of students especially with private universities because students there were crowding public training hospitals.
Asked if anything could be done about students who took up medical studies despite not meeting the minimum grades and circumventing the No Objection Certificate (NOC) they were supposed to get from the MOHE, Dr Hisham said the authorities might have to consider making it legally binding as there was no law to address this now.
Pagalavan's Avatar 
Blaming game starts…
May the odds be ever in your favor
soon comments like xxxx sponsoring students without the min req will appear.. loll
It’s the bureaucratic red tapes that r killing the industry.Blaming won’t solve anything as long as there I no central oversight body to sight n decide what’s the best way to go.
i think the root of the problem boil down to these – greed of money and corruptions by government, ignorant locals driven by instant fame and money .. the cancer has metastasized and palliative is on his way. my heart is with those who truly want to do medicine but can’t , poor and sick patients under the hand of a dubious art stream student. they take our one and only life as joke. this is indeed sickening when you imagine our mother under the scalpel of a half baked doctor just because she is poor and can’t afford private. this is obnoxious.
We r already stuck in this glut maybe we should use it as an opportunity to make reforms.
1. Better working times for doctors: with the number of houseman 8 hour shifts are possible . No more 34 hour shifts. The Western world is moving towards that.
2. Shorter housemamship. Compulsory med and surg then choice of ortho, ong peads etc. 1 year to complete housemanship then proceed to preferred specialty. (Will free up houseman positions and specialize faster)
3. Survival of fittest. No more garanteed job at ho mo or specialist level. Contracts renewed annual basis. Compete for posts every year. That would ensure only the best survive. (I know wont happen i msia)
It will be a bitter pill to swallow for doctors, but i think if above implemented then patients will gain the most as they have the best doctors to treat them who are not overworked
It has nothing to do with red tape. Different agencies are responsible for different aspects of medical education and practice. And the blame rests squarely with MoHE and Politics.
The problem is that MoHE views medical education the same was as any other course, say, cooking or marketing or business studies. A commodity to sell. In fact, it’s better, as med schools can command a premium on fees and students and parents will still pay. Instead of planning for the needs of the country, they just want to “sell” education. They actually said, “why can’t we train doctors for other countries?”
This problem was already foreseen more than 5 years ago by various people, including Dr. Pagalavan. But there was no stopping MoHE from issuing new licences, and refusing to take measures to control unqualified students from enrolling.
Even now, with the problem fully exposed, MoHE is still unwilling to take measures to control numbers, nor to ensure suitable candidates only are selected. Why, well, I leave it to your own conclusions.
i think past few years we have dumping doctor who do not qualified in this field, despite i’m a doctor, someday i will become a patient, ohhh not to fully hope to Allah completely without the right sought…… it is not teach by Islam. ‘Bolehland’
Is that Google translate?
Ni MUET dapat Band berapa ni?
Did you manage to get the required Band 5 prior to graduation?
😀
which uni in malaysia requires band 5 MUET to graduate from med school? half of the students will never graduate then!
This is not even band 4 standard.
Oh my English!
My brain hurts trying to comprehend what he just said. Oh no I think it’s infectious must resist to type in incorrect grammar…. ohs nos I has speaking likes they alls now.
Seems to be a common theme on this site that people with poor english are lambasted.
I cant understand what he is saying too but should he be rediculed for trying?
Many Doctors have a high opinion of themselves. Their pride and identity come from carrying the title ‘Dr’.
And therein lies the reason many are unhappy with the current situation— too many doctors mean less pride and less sense of being ‘special’, not to mention more competition for $$$.and fame.
If we could accept being a doctor as just another job, nothing special, and just carry on with our duties, then what is there to be unhappy about?
Not every doc has to speak queens english. Japanese docs have bad english but they daringly go to conferences and present their research with whathever limited english they have. They have their speeches pretranslated. I admire their courage.
With that said i expect to be lambasted too… feel free to do so.
*ridiculed
It is not about the language per se, but about the ability to communicate. Precise communication is mandatory in health care. One of the most common causes of mistakes and potential mortalities is miscommunication.
The language used in medical care in Malaysia is still English. That is not likely to change. Therefore, anyone who is/wants to become a doctor MUST have a reasonable command of the language. Which is why IPTA demands MUET Band 4 for Medical Students. There is a proposal that students must achieve Band 5 before they are allowed to graduate.
In Japan, they use Japanese to communicate, so it is fine for them to be poor in English. However, it can be quite pitiful to attend some presentation of papers at International Conferences, by elderly Japanese Professors, who stood up quietly, and their subordinates present it for them, albeit also in struggling English. The content may be world class, but the impact is lost in bad English and poor presentation.
Finally, I sincerely hope you don’t really believe that Doctors/practice of medicine is “just another job”. And you don’t mind any doctor to treat you and your love ones.
well said jkl,now lets be totally clear here and that is this that as a patient,i would not allow him near me simply because he is totally incomprehensible.Let me ask you suicide,if it was your love ones and a doctor speaks unintelligently during a consult about a heart bypass,would you have allowed the doctor to continue with what he or she would likely do?.I am looking at the patient’s perspective because am writting as a layman and not a doctor.
JKL Seeing being a doctor as just another job means I see it just as it is. A job that I need to do well. It does not mean that I am less committed. In fact because of the absence of unrealistic expectations that the job should come with money, fame, etc i am less stressed. I do not see the deterioriating quality of the profession as a threat to me, simply because I do not associate being a doctor with my sense of self worth. It is a job that feeds my family, has its highs and lows, but just a job.
Many of us gain self worth and self esteem from the title doctor. Isnt that one of the reasons so many want to get into medical school? For the esteem that comes with it? And when there are too many of us, the ‘value’ of it goes down, so does our sense of self worth, and hence the unease we see in these blog comments.
Kok Chun,
Open forums like this should be to encourage everyone to voice their opinions. Tearing someone down just because they have poor english defeats the purpose of an open forum.
If you read the blogposts (and many other posts on previous articles) many of the comments with regard to poor english range from sarcastic to downright disrespectful. Reflects on the arrogance of many. Indeed I would want my family to be treated by doctors who are smart and competent, but I would also hope that the doctor treating my grandpa( who speaks no english ) has empathy, is humble, and is not full of themselves to the extent of shutting up their colleague because of their less then perfect english.
Well put arvind gupta.From the patient and a layman standpoint,I wish him all the best!
Well said arvind gupta.From the patient and a layman standpoint,I wish him all the best!
@Aravind, being a clinical doctor is NEVER “just another job”. It is a vocation. If you see it as just another job to pay the bills, you will never be happy and maybe it’s time to stop. A non clinical job may be more appropriate for “just another job” doctors. No, the vocation of the job has nothing to do with the “glamour” of the job, but the responsibility of the job.
Communication refers to that between healthcare personnels. But you are right, communication between the doctor and patient is also important, albeit for a different reason. And that communication is at a different level, and can be done through translators, as in the case of your grandfather seeing a non Indian doctor. Nevertheless, I am sure your grandpa will be more comfortable seeing a doctor who speaks his native tongue. But that is NOT the same as competency in English for personnels in healthcare. Don’t confuse the two.
Finally, it is not arrogance. The job DEMANDS many things, not least of which is communication and language skills. If you don’t have that skill, maybe doctoring is NOT for you. If you wonder if this were just “arrogant doctors” unreasonable demands, may I refer you to the selection process for entry into medical schools in UK and Australia, and the various aspects they look at.
The problem with Malaysia is, too many people who should not be doctors, become doctors, and then think the professions is being mean to them for demanding that they have more skills than they pocess.
So, between good qualified doctor with poor English, and unqualified so-so doctors with fluent confident English, which one would you go and get treatment from?
And please don’t exxagerate, smart multilingual people can easily understand what Dr Ikhwan tried to say in his comment, unless you speak and understand only English .
@Iblis, it should be only smart people with good language skills. The other options should not even exist. That is the precise point. There are enough excellent students with excellent language skills to train up as doctors. Why do we need to accept the others?
And where did I say i cannot understand what was written?
Not arrogance? If you honestly read through the comments if this were a school play yard one would mistaken it as a bully scenario. Is this how we would talk to our colleagues in the real world i wonder?
We have all different paths to take in life. Not all being born middle class or upper with a silver spoon. Perhaps our colleague was born in a family with no english? Worked his way up the hardway. Compared to many of us who had the priviledge to be groomed and coached from day one, who is to say he is not qualified to be a doctor?
In the movie patch adams mitch roman the narcissistic pompous prick is of the opinion patch should not be a doctor. I think this is a similar psychology a lot of us have. Someone does not fit our preconceived ideas of what a doctor should be and we ostracize them.
Our dear colleague may not be professor of medicine, but as long as he is safe and dedicated, i believe there is a place for him in this noble profession.
Jkl, I should’ve made it clear, the second half of my previous comment was for general commenters who condescended other ppl English here. Btw I appreciate your response tho
I think half of the medical places in ipta would be empty if we go by your medical students criteria. That would deny the opportunity of those smart kampong/felda students to become doctors. Our current education system does not help students to master english, either some of the teachers are not qualified enough or the environment is not efficient. Those who have good English proficiency normally come from family who speak English at home, or parents with good English background. In my high school, we were ~400 in one batch – form 4 intake with 90% from kampong/felda area. Only 4-5 managed to get A in SPM English, about 20-30 with straight As but English. If those 4-5 students decided to pursue engineering, acc or law, then none would have qualified for medicine by your criteria. But as of today we have 3 doctors graduated from the UK, 3 australia with one of them continue residency there, that I personally know, and more were from local ipta. we improve our english as we grow up, it is a language, not mathematics of physics that we stopped learning sometimes ago.
and no i am not a doctor. i didnt have A in spm english. i grew up in kampong with english merely a subject in school.
@Iblis, read carefully, I said good language skills, not English. Good BM skills is also an asset, and generally, these people will also become good at other languages, including English. Note that I came from a background where we didn’t use English at all in the home.
@Aravind, you failed to get the point. These people should NOT have become “colleagues” to begin with.
As to the example of the movie Patch Adam, while it is based on a real story, the movie is a dramatisation, and many events depicted are not real. Be that as it may, while there are exceptions, the exceptions should not be extended to the general. In other words, just because some underqualified students do end up as good competent doctors, is not justification to allow everybody a try. But as is usual, those underqualified students ALWAYS use this example and argument to justify their right to “try”!
It may all be academic anyway. The common licensing examination is now very likely, and as part of measures to deal with TPPA, language skills, both BM and English may be part of it. Since we cannot control quality at entry into medical school, we will control at exit.
Regardless of what we say here, the facts remain. Never in the history of healthcare in Malaysia, are we faced with such numbers of graduating doctors, and faced with so many who are incompetent/unable to cope/possess attitude problems. And never was it as easy to enter medical school as now. Using examples like Patch Adam will not solve the problem.
As much as it being a movie, patch adams shows us a side of medicine that is exclusive to the elite or academically savvy. The current situation in msia has opened the door of medicine to everyone. Rich poor academically smart and not so. Let the mle root out the dangerous one. If the mle is done in a fair way then it may be a good thing for everyone because medicine will no longer be exclusive, at the same time ensuring a certain standard is preserved
At the mean time who are we mere mortals with our own flaws to sit on high horses dictating who should and should not be doctors? Everyone has their own ambitions and purposes in life. Live and let live would be my view.
@Aravind, just one last correction. The “Patch Adam” approach does NOT “open the door to everyone”. It just allow people with MONEY to buy a medical degree. People that should not be doctors to begin with. The current problem we face as in the articles above clearly illustrates it.
I don’t know how anyone can see that as “good”.
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2016/03/27/forged-spm-result-scam-probed-govt-looking-into-the-use-of-faked-certs-to-pursue-degrees-in-egypt-un/
According to the Patch Adam theory, the gov is being arrogant for not allowing these students to buy a medical degree to “try” to be a doctor.
Oh boy r we really really screwed big time!
He is one of the better ones. At least he dare to write in a public forum. But I wont go near him.
english is just a language not measure of his medical intelligence, you should avoid those unqualified doctors first!
Jkl is right. This is a forum. How would you expect someone to pass a good medical school without mastering good English. Our health care system is based on our British counterparts. The quality used to be the best in our region and even in Asia. Because of our raced based policies to “even the playing field” we have lowered the standard to enter our local public universities for certain racial groups at the same time making it very stringent for the others to enter. The same could be said for those JPA scholars of the same racial groups who do not have the academic qualifications needed to read medicine. Even some dubious private local universities lower their own standards to cater for the demand of some parents or students who just cannot enter a good medical university but are deluded into thinking they should be doctors mostly for the wrong reason. My question to you is this. Our medical syllabus is in English . If the student had a poor command of English, pray tell how he managed to pass the examinations ? Is it really just hard work ? Or is it because the standard of the university is very low? If he comes out as a doctor, how will he be able to communicate with his other colleagues? Will he be able to undergo post graduate training ? Will he be able to present his papers or publications at medical presentations? By the way don’t compare Japan to us. The former is a country that strives for excellence in every field they are in. Ours strives for mediocrity and at worse scrapping from the bottom of the barrel.
This is a forum and everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions. But when one colleague whom we know nothing about expresses a view in poor English we immediately attack and tear him down like a pariah and imply that he should not be a doctor. What happened to simple courtesy and mutual respect as human beings not to mention as doctors?
I know of doctors who only met the minimal requirement of bahasa malaysia but were priviledged enough to be in international schools and universities abroad. They work as doctors in moh now. Their bm is abysmal. The only language they speak English. Would it be fair to condemn them if they can’t speak or compose in bm? Did they work very hard to become doctors considering their priviledged backgrounds? Will they be able to empathize with patients who speak minimal English from impoverished backgrounds? I refuse to jump to conclusions. They have every right to choose their profession. But this right should also be extended to the folks at the other end of the spectrum ( with expectedly poorer English but possibly flawless malay/ chinese/ hokkien/ Tamil )
And what if you work in Kelantan. Your patients don’t speak English and you don’t understand a word of loghat Kelantan. Maybe that’s when Dr Ikhwan shines?
Thank you my friends for support me, i know most of people have their right opinion to criticize on what they have look. i admit it. dont worry. recently i just go for holiday in england, i just meet students from manchester and they have communicate with me a lot, they always support me to talk in english without laughing to me since they were origin people from british. they love foreigner to talk in their language, always encouraged me to speak. but i just tell them early, i am so bad in english. i try to learn after that. in malaysia i have a lot malay friends always support me and they always talk about political situations. what i am going to comment is i just be grateful compare to my hometown palestine. this country so peaceful. i love it. makhanen sedap2 🙂
Last I check not many people in Kelantan can speak whatever people in Palestine speak.
“How would you expect someone to pass a good medical school without mastering good English”
English is just a language. you do not need a perfect English to pass a course taught in English from any world good school as long as you have the minimum English literacy. this applies to all courses overseas. brother, ppl with B/C SPM English can also graduate from monash uni mbbs clayton campus laaa. spm English no A also can graduate from top 3 uk school
“The same could be said for those JPA scholars of the same racial groups who do not have the academic qualifications needed to read medicine”
hmmm.. I wonder how those jpa scholars who did not have the academic qualification to READ medicine passed medical program from the UK and Australia? JPA must have paid those schools to pass the students. JPA please look at this serious accusation!
i’m palestinian people currently doing my master in UKMMC. sorry for bad english. i have so many friends from malay and i know about political situations in malaysia. thanks to all friends who scold my bad english.
Point is this whether you like to admit it or not. The quality of health care is declining in all fields because of lowering the standards of entry. This is bad for all of us. Our country screwed up badly. Thank you.
ahlan ahlan ya akhee… I hope you enjoy Malaysia despite different perceptions you may have seen here and anywhere about Malaysia/ns.
just in case your malay/sians friends have not shared with you, Malaysians are born racist. Malaysia is one of few countries in the world that differentiates people base on race as you can see in the landing card when you first touched down in KLIA. people from certain race have been indoctrinated that they are superior than others since they were born. fact is, given the same opportunity and placed within the same field you could just fare well as they are. I would like to suggest whenever you are in the open forum like this, do not reveal your real identity, your name, race, religion or political party you affiliated with. people will not see the content of your writing, but first they will see your background! loll
if they have been in a multinational environment (not the Malaysian multiracial standard tho) you would see a better reaction. People from different countries have different exposure towards English and speak the language in a different way, much influenced by their mother tongue. the mentality of Malaysians is, you are smart (aka good doctor) if you speak English the Hollywood way. Haha. I have seen some south americans, arabs and prc without perfect english hold top managerial positions in multinational companies worldwide. As long as you understand and can communicate well with your colleagues, provided your medical and technical knowledge are strong, some grammatical errors in your writing should not stop you from being a good doctor! You can always improve it along the way.
People may have overall ielts band 7, but with lower or higher band in some components, which means some grammatical error are still acceptable. You don’t need band 9 to enter medical school!
while I admit to the point that 5Bs SPM is a very low requirement, but English requirement is a different thing,. you don’t need a perfect English to learn medicine. I don’t see the relationship.
Thank you my friends for support me, i know most of people have their right opinion to criticize on what they have look. i admit it. dont worry. recently i just go for holiday in england, i just meet students from manchester and they have communicate with me a lot, they always support me to talk in english without laughing to me since they were origin people from british. they love foreigner to talk in their language, always encouraged me to speak. but i just tell them early, i am so bad in english. i try to learn after that. in malaysia i have a lot malay friends always support me and they always talk about political situations. what i am going to comment is i just be grateful compare to my hometown palestine. this country so peaceful. i love it. makhanen sedap2 🙂
Anyone else discombobulated by the last paragraph in this article?
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2016/03/26/spore-luring-top-medical-grads-spore-luring-top-medical-grads-candidates-identified-and-given-offers/
You need to know the background to this. The PSD that employs civil servants, of which Housemans are part of, know they do NOT have enough posts to take in all the graduated doctors. In their simplistic minds, extrapolating from other professions, they ask the MMC if they can choose from reputable unis, and better applicants, like they do for all other professions.
The MMC had to explain that the Housemanship is a statutory requirement by law, and therefore, since the only Housemanship is with the MoH, the later is duty bound to have to give ALL doctors a job, and the MMC is legally bound to provide provisional registration for all doctors, under the Second Schedule of the Medical Act (ie the list of recognised Universities). Unfortunately, within that list are a number of Universities which has been producing these problem graduates. So the DG is just saying they CANNOT prioritise anybody, as long as people are “qualified or not” within the Second Schedule.
However, the PSD can take administrative measures to filter their recruitment. They are already interviewing ALL new graduates, including a clinical component, and can decline to appoint any doctor who failed the interview. In addition, the Minsiter of Health has already said that the MoH will NOT provide housemanship if applicants do not meet the (already very low) Minimum qualification guideline.
But the MMC CANNOT prioritise registration of selected graduates like the PSD requested.
This is really a nightmare that just gets worse and worse.
What about those who probably falsified their SPM and/or pre-U results or perhaps paid ”extra” for their NOC despite not fulfilling minimum requirements and gained entry into Russian/ukrainian/Indonesian medical schools and have completed their housemanship and currently medical officers?
The Minimum Qualification Guideline was issued in 2011, therefore only affects those entering medical school in 2011 after it’s implementation. They will be just about graduating now, and waiting for Housemanship, none will be MOs.
Hence the Minister’s recent statement that those who don’t comply will not be offered Housemanship jobs. Interesting to see how this ruling will get enforced. And the potential reactions from the affected graduates and their parents.
If one cannot be honest with their spm results then what hope is there for them to be honest doctors? Are we looking at a generation of scum bag docs who can falsify med certs, patient records and insurance claims?
The question is did these students know of their results being falsified or was this the work of unscrupulous agents without their knowledge?
Yes, the PSD interview is now tougher and no longer a formality as it used to be previously. Monash graduates last year were subjected to the new format a few weeks ago and will be informed whether they pass or fail in a month’s time. Only those who pass will be allowed to apply under e-housemanship.
i’m palestinian people currently doing my master in UKMMC. sorry for bad english. i have so many friends from malay and i know about political situations in malaysia. thanks to all friends who scold my bad english.
Dr. Ikhwan, your English is so poor yet you are doing a master. good luck with your patients! I hope you don’t practice in Malaysia..go back to your own country!!
What a douche!
Well at least you recognised that Palestine is a country.
Lol Palestine is a country?
I’m beginning to think this ‘Dr.Ikhwan’ is just being sarcastic… 😀
Sir, I am looking forward to study Medicine. If study the course here, is there a possibility of gaining a housemanship opportunity in overseas. In the other hand, If I study Medicine in overseas will there be a possibility of settling down there or doing housemanship back here in Malaysia. Eagerly looking forward to your reply.
The answers are ALL here in this blog. Please read under For Future Doctors page
Saw in a fb post a doctor proudly announced the opening of another branch gp clinic in my homepekan. His dad has several branches gp clinics in the town by now. The same doctor told me that his dad made a call to a lecturer in one of private med college to pass his brother, he knew his brother was hopeless. I guess the hopeless brother has finished the HOship and now working in one of his father’s clinics, poor kampong ppl who go to his clinic!
we all know the quality of the doctor when he was doing housemanship, poorly train and always missing. but now who monitor these doctors working in their own private gp?
That’s the problem with our system. Anyone can open a clinic and will never be monitored!
I would like to ask that if I have 4 subjects with minimal qualification except for my physics which is C5 and I have applied my NOC and I was given the NOC in my first year itself. To be specific I went and apply myself at the office in putrajaya. Will I have any problem when I apply for my work? Ps: graduating this June
Thank you so much
Btw I joined my medical school in the year of 2010
In 2010, the guideline was not out yet. So your NOC should be valid.
Hi Dr
I’m quite new to your blog
And absolutely love your posts
I just want to ask to ask about University Sultan Zainal Abidin quality in regards with medicine studies.
Are they certified by MMC
And have you heard anything about this particular U?
Thank you in advance
UniSZA is a new university, and UniSZA’s medical programme is even newer, the first batch having only graduated in 2014. It is of course recognised. They have been granted permission and funds to build their own teaching hospital, leapfrogging much older and more established med schools, eg, the 4th oldest public med school UNIMAS (21 years old). However, like most new med schools, getting adequate and quality teaching staff is a problem.
Hi, as you can see from my name, I’m curious about taking medicine with my grade result.
I’ve just finished my A Level (not in Malaysia) and got ACC (Maths, Biol, Chem), do you think ill pass the Malaysian’s NOC because am thinking of returning if I can study medicine with that result.
I don’t know if it’s of any use to say that my GCSE result is flying; all A*s and As, and that I’ve encountered some personal and family issue during my A Level sitting which I think subconsciously had affected my study, dunno…
Advice needed and please consult me!
Thanks
the minimum entry requirement is available at MMC website. If I am not mistaken, you don’t qualify. Furthermore, you need BM to be able to practise/do housemanship in Malaysia.
Thanks sir,
Now can I know if I can take foundation leading to medicine at any unis in Malaysia with my GCSE result so that I can improve my pre uni grade?
Thanks in advance
for SPM, can. I am not sure about GCSE
Does this mean it’s possible to be taking foundation/matriculation leading to medicine using your GCSE result even if you already got A Level?
Because I’ve been seeing a lot of unis on their website saying you can sit foundation with SPM or GCSE, but not sure if it’s possible if you already have A Level.
Don’t really know how things work in Malaysia..Please she’d some light into thus matter.
And thank you for your kind reply sir!
even those who have STPM can still do foundation to get in. However, you need to spend another 1 year doing the foundation. It is a loophole but you are basically disregarding your A levels.
I agree with that, especially when I remembered the years I put into finishing my A Level. But at least I have my A Level already, which means I’ll just regard it as a build up of my A Levels where I lack.
But man…I’ve always remembered wanting to specialise as an obstetric/gynaecology.
And what of housemanship in Malaysia? I don’t have SPM, what will they assess my capabilities against in order for me to serve housemanship? Will they be looking at my foundation or my GCSE (provided A Level has been disregarded)?
I’ll also sit BM SPM only, will that be enough?
And studying in Bangladesh is the talk amongst agencies these days and there are a lot of promises they’re giving…but it’s hard to find agencies that’s trusted + the fees they’re charging is mad. That’s why I’m thinking of going back to do a pre university programme in Malaysia than to study in countries the agencies are offering.
But, but, but I also want to broaden my future professionalism, I want to have work experiences and practice opportunities in other countries like Singapore or at any of the Gulf areas…and Bangladesh can bring you to the US, Canada etc
Can any Malaysian universities allow that to happen, if so which uni does? I prefer to stick to government unis as it’s so much cheaper, if I can get in that is!
Which is worthwhile? Going to Bangladesh or staying in Malaysia in a uni that is recognised worldwide? Could you please give me a list of Malaysian unis that is recognised worldwide, especially by Singapore and the Emirates, if it’s not much of a hassle.
I think a huge thanks is due to you sir! A massive thank you indeed. Geez…don’t even know how you juggle your active blog and being a doctor…
Many things can change along the way. Joining civil service is a privilege. SPM is a requirement but more so SPM BM. So far as long as you have SPM BM should be fine BUT anything can happen along the way in 5 years time.
Never trust agents.
Only Um/UKM recognised in Singapore. Monash is recognised in Australia/NZ. PMC in Ireland. FYI, Bangladesh do not bring you to US or Canada.
There is no such thing as recognised worldwide anymore. Each country have their own rules and regulation.
Please buy my books and read for further info.
That’s just great, so helpful. Much thanks sir and I do appreciate the list of unis! I’ll do my further research into each of them.
You’re right the world is forever changing. This week I just got an email back from IIUM saying that they’re only offering foundation leading to medicine to SPM holders? But before, my mum called the uni itself, I think 1/2 years back asking about doing foundation with GCSE and they said it’s applicable.
I don’t know if they don’t understand the nature of the question or if it’s a new thing…but is it true? I think IIUM is a government university if I’m not wrong and another two government unis I’m still waiting for a reply back are from UNISZA and USIM, I’m not sure if they offer foundation for GCSE holders or not and if English is the medium taught in UNISZA?
I hope it’s not a new regulation or something that they’ll only offer foundations to SPM holders in all government unis…
(UM, UKM, Monash and PMC – all offer foundation for GCSE holders, I presume?)
I’m so not on top of new changes in Malaysian education, would you be so kind to clarify if it’s really happening to IIUM because I remembered my mum personally called them about it.
And I’m facing the same problem with USIM – with my first email asking about foundation, they said yes for SPM/GCSE or equivalent. Then in second email, they said they don’t offer foundation to Internationals (thinking I was one) and when I said I’m Malaysian with GCSE. They said they’re offering foundation to locals with SPM holders? What’s going on?
Sorry about all these criss crossing of different uni problems…They’re just so inconsistent and confusing.
And yes, I’ll be sure to check your book out! Thanks again for the help sir!
Welcome to Malaysia!
confuseandcurios. That’s the issue the children of Malaysian expats is facing. So far non of the ipta allows Malaysian without spm to apply for their foundation for medicine program. I would recommend you to call up each uni, hopefully there is change now. Or try checking (diploma is science in uitm then mbbs uitm, which you have to spend another 3 years for diploma).
Anyway, any uni that’s registered in imed directory can bring you to USA residency (including all the Malaysian ipta/ ipts), but no position guaranteed. Basically as long as it’s a registered medical school, it allows you to register for ecfmg which require you to complete the usmle steps.
The same thing for practicing in the gulf area. For UAE as long as your uni is recognised in its origin country, you passed their residency entrance exam and pose a valid residency permit you are eligible to apply. For qatar, you don’t need to have residency permit to apply, as long as you have steps 1 & 2, you can apply . But in 4 years time , by the time you finishing your med school, things may change as some of the local med school will have started producing their own doctors. Singapore is diff as they have their own list of recognised schools. You can google for that.
hye DR. i just finish my matriculation programme and manage to score a 4.0 in both semesters. But unfortunately, i only got a C+ for bio and chemistry in SPM. My question is, am i still eligible to apply for medical school and practice medicine in Malaysia after i graduate?
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Please check with the minimum requirements by MMC. It depends on what type of matriculation you are talking about
i’m talking about malaysian matriculation. it just stated matriculation here:
Click to access MER.pdf
Malaysian matriculation does not supersede SPM. Thus you still need your SPM results requirements.
are there any ways i can do to allow me to study medicine? so frustraing to know that SPM is the main cause i can’t do medicine. 😦
Resit SPM BIO and Chemistry
in your article you are saying that Only standardised Pre-U courses like STPM, Matriculation, A level, IB etc can supersede SPM results. does this mean that my spm result won’t be seen as part of MMC requirement anymore? Since i heard matriculation certificate have been recognise.
Please check with the MMC guideline.
sorry doctor, i just need another confirmation. What if i manage to get into a recognized public university and receive that medical degree ? Am i allowed to practice medicine in Malaysia? Are there any other consequences?
technically, no university should be able to give you a seat(as per the guideline which all uni suppose to follow) BUT if the local public university do give you a place, I am not sure what the situation will be in the future.
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