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1. on August 8, 2012 at 3:49 PM | Reply supergoh

   Most likely Singapore will welcome those Australia medical graduates.

   
   
   • on August 8, 2012 at 4:20 PM | Reply drw

     Not likely because Singapore would prefer to take those with experiences (MOs) instead of new houseman, if they have the choice.

     
     
2. on August 8, 2012 at 9:45 PM | Reply Nav

   Other countries have no obligation to give foreign students intern posts – they are rightly looking after the interests of their own citizens and PRs first.

   UK limits their foreign students to a maximum of 10% each intake for medicine, so has been able to absorb them all this while. Australia has been using international medical students as a cash cow for a long time now. Ireland is another culpirt – with up to 50% of some intakes comprised entirely of foreign students (which is why they have 5 medical schools for only 4.5 million people).

   Did you know it’s cheaper to study medicine in the UK now compared to Aus, due to the current exchange rates?
   30k pounds x 4.7 = RM141,000 per year
   60k AUD x 3.2 = RM192,000 per year

   The Australians are also now worried about the future bottlenecks in getting on to postgrad training, and then actually getting a job as a consultant. It is not like Malaysia, where everyone is guaranteed a job. You have to apply to individual hospitals or health services and compete with others, even after you finish your specialist training.

   
   
   • on August 9, 2012 at 7:06 AM | Reply train

     Still cheaper than Perdana… 🙂

     
     
   • on August 9, 2012 at 10:19 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

     I have been receiving few emails from Malaysians who are working in Australia who wants to come back home as they could not get a specialist training post. I think eventually, most international doctors may not be able to get a place for postgraduate training.

     Once they corporatised our hospitals in another few years time, the situation will also be the same in Malaysia. You need to apply to individual hospitals for a job.

     
     
     • on August 9, 2012 at 12:40 PM Eddy

       Eventually it will be a waste of money going overseas doing medicine. It is not only medicine is affected, now graduates from all other courses in UK (international students) are affected, as the UK government had closed their Tier 1 (post study work) since 5 April 2012. They cannot stay on to gain some overseas (UK) working experience before returning to their home countries. Many (especially those graduated in June 2012) are very disappointed.

       
       
     • on August 9, 2012 at 1:41 PM Pagalavan Letchumanan

       IT was bound to happen and I did mention this in my blog quite some time ago. Ireland has also closed it’s door to international graduates. I heard, this year none of international graduates could get internship post in Ireland. With this scenario, more Malaysians will be returning to Malaysia, further congesting the system.

       
       
   • on July 13, 2013 at 12:26 PM | Reply Studied-in-Sg-high-sch-b4

     Singapore is now expanding their healthcare system, this might be a relief for these medical graduates of Ireland and Australia.
     http://www.moh.gov.sg/content/moh_web/home/pressRoom/speeches_d/2012/moh_2012_committeeofsupplyspeechhealthcare2020improvingaccessibi.html (Read paragraph 26 to 29)

     Medical schools recognised by the Singapore Medical Council:
     http://www.doctors.com.sg/medicalschools.html

     
     
     • on July 13, 2013 at 3:00 PM Nav

       This news is not new. Singapore is playing catch-up because they have overpopulated their island with PRCs and other migrants. Have read a lot into this while making job enquiries there a few months ago and talking to family/friends who practice there.

       New hospital in Jurong (Ng Teng Fong Hospital) opening at end of 2014 and another new hospital opening in Sengkang in 2018 or 2019.

       They are short of junior doctors and specialists (public sector only – there is a glut in private). Their third medical school is already in operation so the junior doctor problem will be solved in a few years. And they are putting measures in place to stop their specialists moving overseas (NUS recently told the Royal College of Anaesthetists to derecognise the NUS Masters for Anaesthesiology).

       In my opinion, if you are in Aus/NZ/UK, Singapore is nothing great in comparison except that it’s close to home.

       
       
3. on August 9, 2012 at 4:52 AM | Reply Thasha

   Hello doc.You mentioned if you are planning to migrate overseas,don’t do medicine.How about dentistry?And if I pursue my degree in BDS in Penang Dental College,their twinning programme to Salem,is it considered as a Malaysia’s degree or India’s degree?

   
   
   • on August 9, 2012 at 10:21 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

     Depends from where you graduate from. Dentistry usually have almost the same rule as medicine but less stringent.

     
     
4. on August 9, 2012 at 6:54 AM | Reply drw

   “Come 2015/16, we will be talking about the same issue in this Bolehland! Probably the students association of MMA can do the same thing as what the AMSA is doing. Unfortunately, our students themselves do not know what is happening in this country, thanks to our “katak bawah tempurung” education system and “brain washing” main stream media”

   Hi Dr,

   I do agree that a lot of our students are quite ignorant on what is happening but your above statements seems to generalize that all Malaysian students are “katak bawah tempurung’ which I fee is not fair to many of them. Many Malaysian students (especially those who are Facebook and tech savvy) are very bright and knowledgeable. Some of these students (medical students) are members of AMSA (Asian Medical Students Association) and are aware of the internship fiasco in Australia. (It means happenings in another country).

   AMSA (Australia Medical Students Association) are vehemently expressing their opinions/concern on the shortage of internship places, because the problem (fiasco) has already hit them hard now, whereas our local medical graduates at this moment have no problem of getting places. You cannot expect them (Malaysia Medical Student Association) being students to express concern or complain on something which has not hit them yet. They will be accused of spreading rumour!

   At this moment, such fiasco/issue(which you have predicted would happen in 2015/16) should be vehemently voiced out by medical fraternity,MMC/MMA, concerned parents, colleges/universities and all the wonderful people in this blog which including Dr your good self, to the authorities concerned.

   
   
   • on August 9, 2012 at 7:19 AM | Reply train

     Well the tsunami has already hit Malaysia, it’s just that the authorities have expanded housemanship places without any regard for quality assurance…2015/16 will probably be the absolute saturation point.

     For Australia it makes no sense not to provide internship posts to ALL locally-trained medical graduates as they still hand out nearly 5000 working visas to foreign trained doctors every year…can’t say the same for Malaysia

     
     
     • on August 9, 2012 at 7:51 AM Nav

       Actually, it’s not that straight-forward in Australia.

       The number of visas for foreign docs is high each year because:
       1. A significant proportion are British/Irish docs on a temporary working holiday. These docs can do jobs the interns can’t (e.g. paeds, O&G, ICU, etc).
       2. There is a shortage of GPs in the very very very ulu towns – no need to even sit exam here if you come from overseas but you have to stay for 5 years
       3. There is a shortage of specialists in the smaller towns – the base hospitals (essentially like our district hospitals but with much better facilities). This is because the average Australian wants to work in the big city.

       The scope of an Australian intern is very limited. They only work in medicine, surgery/ortho and ED, and are not very useful in ED because just about every patient they see has to be run past a senior. A significant part of their job is to learn, which is why the govt subsidises their base pay. So, the type of post they can hold is quite limited really and you can’t just create these jobs out of thin air because you dilute the learning experience. But of course, that is exactly what they’ve done in Malaysia!

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 4:30 AM wiliams

       “There is a shortage of GPs in the very very very ulu towns – no need to even sit exam here if you come from overseas but you have to stay for 5 years”

       Hi Nav,

       Would appreciate if you can advise how Australia monitor the compulsory 5 years stay on these doctors? What happen if these doctors want to leave 2 – 3 years earlier , if they cannot adjust to the very ulu lifestyle? Any penalty? Thanks.

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 7:47 AM Nav

       Hi williams,

       They will not be able to work elsewhere. When starting in an AON job, you are given limited registration with your APC specifically stating that you are only allowed to work in that particular practice. If you try to look for another job, you will have to apply for registration all over again. The limited registration is initially for 1 year and they may not renew it if your practice is unsafe.

       To leave and work elsewhere in Aus, you eventually have to pass the AMC exam unless your degree is recognised (but you probably wouldn’t be working in an AON practice if it was recognised anyway).

       Having just looked at the website, it may not be 5 years anymore but possibly shorter or until you pass your AMC exam.

       
       
   • on August 9, 2012 at 10:27 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

     I will say, most of the students are in the category I mentioned above. Very small minority are in the group that you have mentioned. When I first wrote about this impending disaster way back almost 6 years ago in MMA magazine, even the MMA members said that I was over exaggerating and spreading rumours! Haha, and now they openly admitted that I was right during the last AGM.

     MMA/MMC have voiced out this issue recently as I have written earlier but who cares? The colleges are not here to do social service but to make money, so they will never be bothered. Most parents I talk to think I am talking rubbish as they are totally unaware of what is happening. Hopefully they will read my articles.

     
     
5. on August 9, 2012 at 7:02 AM | Reply lazyman

   just introduce a 2 year internship like the british counterpart for whatever silly reasons and then the issue can be laid to rest temporarily
   i really salute those physician adminstrators who can come out with this 2 year programme which is a sheer waste of time and resources
   the housemanship is meant to be a transition from a medical student with little or no practical experience(the clerkships are just teaching attachment ) to one who acquires the basic skills in ‘practical’ medicine and a 1 year stint will suffice to all intent and purposes.
   only 2 countries in the world have this arrangement of a 2 year internship programme ostensibly to prepare graduates to acquire better clinical skills and improved clinical acumen with 5 -6 rotations instead of the traditional 6/12 surgical/medical attachment
   the reason behind is so obvious -too many doctors and inadequate internship post and what better way to alleviate this ‘oversupply’ with a silly programme to justify not reducing the nos. of students/medical school for whatever reasons.

   
   
6. on August 9, 2012 at 7:37 AM | Reply train

   With regards to Monash Sunway graduates, they are dead last in terms of internship priority:

   New South Wales: Category 3.3 Graduates of university campuses accredited by the Australian Medical Council outside of Australia and New Zealand

   http://www.heti.nsw.gov.au/secure/downloadfile.asp?fileid=1008609

   South Australia: 5. Commonwealth-supported (HECS-HELP) or full-fee paying graduates who have spent two or more semesters in an overseas campus of an Australian or New Zealand University (eg Monash Sunway campus, UQ New Orleans campus) who are Australian temporary residents, New Zealand permanent residents or New Zealand temporary residents.

   http://www.saimet.org.au/index.php/junior-doctors/interns/priority-groups

   The Monash Sunway MBBS suddenly looks a lot less attractive, especially to private students; I wouldn’t be surprised if the programme folds eventually (unless JPA or PTPTN intervenes)

   
   
   • on August 9, 2012 at 10:31 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

     They do have JPA and PTPTN scholars in MOnash Malaysia. So, the locals will still do it. However, they will not be able to attract international students. Who knows that the AMC might just withdraw it’s recognition of Monash Malaysia if they are not needed anymore. I heard that this year they could not meet the target number of students.

     
     
     • on August 9, 2012 at 5:56 PM freshman

       I am a freshman at Monash Sunway MBBS this year. What Dr Pagalavan had mentioned there is true. There’s only 106 students in my batch, whereas the previous batches were always around 150 or beyond.

       
       
     • on August 10, 2012 at 10:34 AM Pagalavan Letchumanan

       They were targeting 150 students this year when last year it was 130. It seems the latest news has cost a lot of anger among the current Year 3-5 students.

       
       
     • on August 11, 2012 at 6:58 AM Confused

       So what happens to those international students currently studying at Monash Sunway? (e.g. a Singaporean)

       
       
     • on August 11, 2012 at 9:49 AM Pagalavan Letchumanan

       In LIMBO! As far as I know, MOnash Malaysia is not recognised elsewhere including Singapore. So, if you can’t get to work in Australia, you need to sit for your country’s entrance exam to be able to work in your respective country. Malaysia do not provide housemanship for foreigners unless you are married to a Malaysia, furthermore Malaysia is also facing the same doctors glut problem locally.

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 1:31 PM JK

       That will explain the lax selection criteria for this year’s batch. They have basically ignored the ISAT result for selection, and taken people below ATAR95. While the 1st 2 batches were lucky, about half got houseman jobs in Australia, going forward, it will be very difficult for the next batch graduating end of this year to do likewise, with the houseman jobs shortfall of more than 200.

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 1:38 PM Pagalavan Letchumanan

       The competition among the medical schools is making it very tough for each of them to get enough students especially after MMC came up with the min criteria last year. I know a few medical schools who have recruited students without min qualifications but have asked the students to appeal to MMC for exemption! The only advantage Monash had was “internship in Australia” which is impossible from this year onwards.

       
       
   • on August 11, 2012 at 3:10 PM | Reply drw

     “The Monash Sunway MBBS suddenly looks a lot less attractive, especially to private students; I wouldn’t be surprised if the programme folds eventually (unless JPA or PTPTN intervenes)”

     Why should JAP or PTPTN intervenes? This medical school belongs to Tan Sri Dato’ Seri Dr. Jeffrey Cheah Fook Ling.

     
     
     • on August 12, 2012 at 11:05 PM Nav

       Actually, the medical school now belongs to a non-profit trust. I say non-profit, but of course the trust has to make a profit to continue functioning.

       JPA or PTPTN may intervene because the govt will want to avoid losing face if a major foreign medical school pulls out of Malaysia. Some other private medical schools have crony links to the govt as well – which is how they get JPA and MARA to sponsor their students when there is already a surplus of medical students around.

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 10:45 AM Pagalavan Letchumanan

       When I was in MOnash till 2010, it is postulated that if they do not get 150 students by 2012, they will still be loosing money. They need that number to make profit.

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 1:39 PM 48mmaagm

       They can still get the 150 number. One way is through political connection to get JPA/Mara sponsorship of students. After all, a med school with a supposedly American degree basically is populated almost 100 % by government scholars.

       The other way is just do what all the other IPTS med schools are doing, ie take in all comers, as long as they can pay the fees. The MMC guideline however have also reduced this group, excluding those with poor SPM results. They are already partly doing this, as is obvious with the current batch’s quality of students selected. The cut off is now higher for IMU-PMS than Monash Sunway, and that says something!

       
       
7. on August 9, 2012 at 8:50 AM | Reply dr dogtor

   Dear Dr Pagalavan,

   Your postings are very negative dicouraging to genuine “doctors wannabe”. lt would be well balance if you could give some brighther side of things on the medical fraternity. Regardless of any country we must encourage genuine and bright students to take up medicine otherwise there would be no more dedicated doctors anymore!!!

   
   
   • on August 9, 2012 at 10:41 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

     A genuine “doctors wannabe” will never get discouraged with what I am writing. This is the reality on the ground and a genuine person will still go ahead knowing very well all the challenges that lies ahead of him/her. However, if the person does medicine for glamour, money, good life and guaranteed job ( which is almost > 50% of them), then he will be disappointed with what I am writing. Almost every 2-3 days, I receive emails from junior doctors telling me that they want to quit medicine and asking me what to do next. Many of them said that they should have read a blog like mine before deciding to do medicine as they were not aware of all these issues. One of them even admitted that she did medicine after watching the glamour and adventurous life of doctors in TV programmes!

     Everyone knows the good things that a doctors does, treating patients BUT NO one tells you the other side, the darker side. That is what this blog is all about. Telling you the reality. Look at it this way, the good and genuine ones will still proceed and the “fake” ones will not decide to do medicine!

     
     
     • on August 10, 2012 at 7:08 AM qj kqong

       Welly said Dr, best reply that you ever written. What you say is really true, many of my friends taking medicine now, or wanted to take medicine keep saying doctors make lots of many. A friend of mine even say that she wanted to be a cardiothoracic surgeon as a cardiothoracic surgeon earns more that 200k per month. When I ask her how to be a cardiothoracic surgeon, she was speechless…another friend want to be a doctor because he like the job of doctors. Asked him what kind of job do doctors do? He only answer me those things a doc do la…. In the end I can conclude that none of them knows anything about medicine…

       
       
     • on August 10, 2012 at 10:40 AM Pagalavan Letchumanan

       Yup. I do receive quite a number of emails from budding doctors who almost always wants to become either a cardiothoracic surgeon or neurosurgeon!! I don’t know whether it is the glamour or money that makes them want to do these 2 fields. When I tell them the route to become cardiothoracic and neurosurgeon, they get a shock!! They think they can become one immediately after horsemanship. That’s how knowledgeable they are when it comes to medical education and being a doctor.

       Does your friend know that in order for the cardiothoracic surgeon to earn RM 200K/month, he has to do atleast 1 cardiac bypass surgery for every 2 days? It practically means, you will be in the hospital throughout the day for the whole month! So, what’s the point of earning the money when you can’t even see your family members? AND don’t forget the stress level!

       
       
     • on August 10, 2012 at 2:01 PM Awaken

       Absolutely Correct ! Dr Paga , I can never thank you enough. Through your blog, I have discovered that medicine is not really the field for me. I think your blog serve as a filter, a guide and a test. If a person is genuine, I believe there will continue in this journey regardless of any negativism or criticism.

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 4:19 AM Ash

       Dear Dr P. and dr dogtor,

       I have to agree with dr dogtor. With all due respect Dr P, your postings are very negative and discouraging. Although I do agree with you that your blog provides all the aspiring doctors with a healthy dose of reality, it must also be balanced with the positive side of the medical fraternity (like what dr dogtor had put up there) All the while, you have been discouraging students to study medicine by showing them the depressing side of being the doctor, but have you ever thought that there is always the good side and the bad side in every career. There are always disadvantages that come with being a doctor and of course the advantages that comes along with it. You can’t say that being a pharmacist is good can you? The futures of pharmacists are worse than that of the doctors I must say! What about engineers? Not all engineers are having a good life too. Having said that the future of doctors is not all doom and gloom.

       Dr P., you also said that a “genuine doctor wannabe” would not get discouraged by what you are writing. You are right! But all these doctors wannabe are cautious before jumping on the bandwagon with other med student hopefuls. This shows that they know what is going on with the medical system in Malaysia. These “doctor wannabe” researched on the internet about the future of doctors and stumbled across your blog. But all they read is the negative aspects of being a doctor. So you can’t say that they won’t be discouraged by your writing. There are literally no good views or opinions of being a doctor from any (doctors) blogger in Malaysia. Those junior doctors that emailed you telling you that they want to quit medicine, are those that didn’t fully understand what is going on with medical world in Malaysia don’t you think? They are the one who thought that a doctor’s job is one full of glamour and good life not the other way around.

       I like to read your postings Dr P. but sometimes it does feels like you are belittling all the junior doctors out there (it is not their fault that they are in this position)…after all doctors are supposed to be nurturing hope and whatnots shouldn’t they?. There must be a balance between realism versus optimism.

       I am not going against you Dr P., in fact I respect you a lot. I just thought I should put that out there.

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 11:10 AM Pagalavan Letchumanan

       I think you are completely missing the point. I will say this again: a genuine “doctor wannabe” will never get discouraged with what the reality is as they are well aware of what they are going to face in the future. I am talking about the reality which every budding doctor should be aware before stepping into the medical field. The biggest mistake that most students do is when they are not aware of what they are getting themselves into. This blog is to create awareness about the reality. You know how many emails I have received thanking me for what I have written in this blog? What I write in this blog are issues which no one will tell you!

       AND who says pharmacist are going to be worst off? Do you know that once the 1Care system is in place, we will need a lot more pharmacist around. Doctors will loose dispensing rights and the pharmacist will get all the dispensing rights? And for engineers, do you know how many other opportunities they have. They can become teachers, lecturers, go to other countries easily etc etc. Do you khow how many engineers graduated from Malaysia who are working in Singapore? Can you do that for medicine? That is what I am saying in this blog. There are still many people out there who DO NOT know anything about medicine and the life behind it.

       I can summarise the advantage of being a doctor in just few words: the joy of treating patients and seeing them leaving the room/ward safely and of course the excitement of making a diagnosis. BUT how many patients will be in this category? less then 20-40%. Majority are chronic conditions and advance cases where you can only provide comfort care. At the same time, patients are becoming more demanding and less thankful compared to those days. That’s the reason why you don’t see many doctors writing about the advantage of being a doctor. There is no money in medicine anyway. Many doctors will get fed-up of what they are doing within 5-10 years. Some surgeons may be better off when they see new techniques etc but majority will get bored after some time. I know a GP who is now a successful businessman ( landscaping, real estate etc) but rented out his clinic which he ran for about 5 -7 years. You know what he told me : ” who wants to sit in a room with 4 walls and see the same thing over and over again?”

       As Dr Miltun Lam said, more than 50% of students do medicine for the wrong reasons. I would say it is much higher then that. When I was teaching in a uni, most students who do medicine , do it for the same reasons: guaranteed job, good money, good future and life and parents pressure or just because they got good results in SPM?STPM?A levels etc. This is what I am trying to filter out.

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 7:41 AM Nav

       “The futures of pharmacists are worse than that of the doctors I must say!”

       What makes you say that? There are lots of opportunities for pharmacists out there, as long as you have qualified from a decent university. It is also only a matter of time before they are given sole dispensing rights in Malaysia.

       The future of doctors is indeed not all doom and gloom, but it is only the top 10% that will really be comfortable. To get into that top 10%, other factors such as race and contacts may unfortunately carry more weight than your ability – such is the situation in Bolehland.

       The rest won’t be poor. In fact, they will be comfortable, but they will not be rich. That is what Dr P is trying to tell people. If you think you are going to mint money in medicine in Malaysia, you have missed the boat. The amount of new doctors coming into the system has had an effect on:
       1. Competition by sheer numbers. Your chances of securing anything (jobs, training posts) are diminishing all the time
       2. Dilution of experience and decreased learning opportunities.

       None of this should matter if you want to do medicine because you love the job. But that is not the motivation of the vast majority of students entering med school these days – nor that of their parents!

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 1:11 PM karen

       Engineers also complain a lot. I was in a bookstore and heard a young man (a just qualified PE) complaining to a friend (a trainee doctor) that he worked so hard to be a PE but his pay is just peanut $2,600/= only. He lamented that he had chosen the wrong course. They talked so loud that everyone in the bookstore can hear them. Life is not easy!

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 1:19 PM Pagalavan Letchumanan

       BUT remember one thing, the salary of an engineer goes up much faster. A government houseman may start at a higher salary but after that it is very very slow. BTW, they can also do part time teaching, set up their own company and the more experience they get, the more salary they can demand.

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 7:48 PM cardipin

       Ash,

       Medicine – limited career options. That’s a fact.
       Many times, interest is not equivalent to passion.
       Considering the fact that the numbers of HO quitting the profession is on the rise, can you even ignore the fact that more than 50% of them joined the profession for the wrong reason?
       Previously, such thing is almost unheard of!

       I had recceived quite a number of emails from HO asking me how to quit Housemanship, what are the other career options, asking me to recommend them jobs since they can no longer take it as a HO.

       I was pretty surprised that there are actually many of them out there.

       Medicine is only meant for those with true passion and interest, only these people will survive. Sounded like common sense, isn’t it? However, many are blinded by the so-called prospects in the profession.

       And do you even know that for a fully registered pharmacist, their career options are more?
       If they are bored with their clinical job, they can easily switched to private sector to work in varous pharmaceutical firms.

       Engineers – they can practice engineering, become a lecturer, sales engineer (big bucks), join the banking and insurance industry…etc

       I salute Dr Paga for his effort in creating public awareness about the reality in the medical fraternity. I wish I could have read his blog before I joined the profession.

       
       
   • on August 18, 2012 at 10:36 AM | Reply jw

     I suspect that many of those who intend to pursue this dream have not yet done the job. to dogtor, allow me to distinctly ask you, what bright side are you referring to? the only bright light you will see for the first year on the job may well be the ward’s flourescent lamps.

     let me give you the low down: you will never be gregory house, neither will you have the clean cut looks of george clooney while in the wards. you will slave over discharge summaries. you will rewrite drug charts. and the nurses will call you at 2 am to resite a tissued cannula. then its back to work at 630. that, is an average day.

     Dr Pagalavan mentions what old timers will be well familiar with, and i can safely say that many in the profession, especially at the lower rungs do not enjoy the tasks they are given.

     cardiothoracic or neurosurgery? maybe after 30 years. just try to gain employment before anticipating these pathways. there are thousands of medical officers who do not possess these titles and they are the heroes of the profession. if you care enough for your patients, you might just enjoy the job like i do.

     
     
8. on August 9, 2012 at 12:56 PM | Reply drn

   ” So, the type of post they can hold is quite limited really and you can’t just create these jobs out of thin air because you dilute the learning experience. But of course, that is exactly what they’ve done in Malaysia!”

   Dear Nov,

   I don’t mean to condone poor quality training, but If circumstance arises, isn’t “dilute the learning experience’ is better than ‘not giving them any experience’ at all ( No place for internship)? Poor medical graduates! I believe they would prefer the former.

   
   
   • on August 12, 2012 at 10:59 PM | Reply Nav

     The medical graduates might prefer the former but it may be to their own detriment and that of their patients. It will give them a false sense of knowledge – or ‘unconscious incompetence’, a term that is used in medical education.

     Essentially, they think they have enough experience because they have completed 4 months in a rotation when the reality is that their diluted learning experience may have given them the equivalent of 1 month’s experience.

     The effects of this flows on to the patients they treat. They will make mistakes during the course of their career and patients end up suffering. An incompetent doctor is a dangerous doctor.

     Medical graduates might prefer the former but patients might prefer the latter.

     
     
   • on August 13, 2012 at 12:48 PM | Reply drn

     Then what is your wise suggestion for those doctors who cannot get places for internship? Stay put in Australia and wait till they get a place instead of taking up the internship in Malaysia ?

     
     
     • on August 13, 2012 at 3:59 PM Nav

       I wouldn’t classify anything I say as ‘wise’, merely well-informed.

       If one was graduating end of this year or next, I would say wait 6 months in Australia and apply EVERYWHERE in Aus/NZ, including the smallest hospitals that offer internship. Enquire individually to each hospital. There is always a possibility of someone pulling out somewhere. At the same time, apply to Singapore as a back-up.

       By 6 months, you will know what your prospects are from the replies you get. If all fails then you have no choice but to go home.

       
       
     • on July 13, 2013 at 11:25 AM Studied-in-Sg-high-sch-b4

       MEDICAL SCHOOLS RECOGNISED BY THE SINGAPORE MEDICAL COUNCIL
       http://www.doctors.com.sg/medicalschools.html

       
       
9. on August 12, 2012 at 2:38 PM | Reply Pik Khee

   doctor, please give me advice on MBBS in UTAR 🙂

   
   
   • on August 12, 2012 at 2:43 PM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

     I can’t comment as they have not produced any graduates yet. BUT looking at their number of academic full timers, it does not look impressive.

     
     
     • on August 12, 2012 at 2:56 PM Pik Khee

       oh.. what about mahsa or msu? 🙂

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 2:13 AM CY

       What about manipal?

       
       
     • on August 13, 2012 at 10:46 AM Pagalavan Letchumanan

       OK but I heard discipline among students is bad

       
       
10. on August 13, 2012 at 4:41 AM | Reply Young Blood

    Dear Dr. Paga,

    How are you? It is very interesting that you have touched on the crisis of other countries such as in Australia. Yes indeed, as I am from the Uni of Western Australia, only one international student is currently offered an intern position next year. For the others, even the really brilliant ones are still anxiously waiting. Even after this second round offers, no one got an offer still. and yes, if you still wish to stay in Australia despite failing to acquire an intern spot, you can do something else for a year and apply again next year. But I doubt if you cannot get in the first time, you can get in the second time as the criteria remains fairly the same (which is international students lower priority in the list – not guaranteed spot). On that note though, at least Australian graduates can try and go elsewhere as their degree is recognised almost everywhere (they might be able to go to NZ, US or Singapore if not back to Malaysia).

    I would like to applaud you for pointing out the hard reality about the prospects that Monash Malaysia could be closed down in the future as it will be unable to guarantee or at least make it possible for their graduates to work in Australia, and for their international students in Malaysia or even their hometown such as Singapore for example. I have always thought that it is quite a tall order for those who did the majority of their training in Malaysia, and then about 6 months to 1 year attachment in Australia to be able to come here and work that easily (not undermining, its just that the system is different rather than saying that Monash Malaysia MBBS training is bad – cannot really comment as never learnt medicine there).

    A word of advise for those who wants to do medicine but cannot go to public universities. Dig deep into your hearts and think long and hard before you dive into a bad medical school. Honestly, do not waste your dad’s money even though he is really rich and have a lot of disposable money. You cant live of your parents forever. One day, you have to work and earn on your own. If you go to a bad medical school, get poorly trained, become a very incompetent doctor, you would not be a happy person in the long run as there will be no job satisfaction and you would be a danger to others. Even you, if given the choice would not want to be treated by yourself at that point. Work hard in SPM, STPM and pre-uni courses so that you can at least have the choice to go to a good uni for your medical training. You will see the reasons in med school and when you graduate and start working. Don’t fall into the trap of greedy businessmen and politicians who wants to make money and go into their so called accredited private medical schools which costs a fortune to enter. Even if your sponsored by MARA/JPA or other companies, think before you enter a not so recognised university to do medicine.

    “Kalau tak dipecahkan ruyung, manakan dapat sagunya.” Kind regards.

    
    
    • on August 13, 2012 at 7:32 AM | Reply Nav

      “On that note though, at least Australian graduates can try and go elsewhere as their degree is recognised almost everywhere (they might be able to go to NZ, US or Singapore if not back to Malaysia).”

      Interestingly, NZ are well aware of this problem so to prevent them being inundated by Australian graduates, they have strictly enforced the start of their intern year. It has always started at the end of Nov in NZ and in late Jan or early Feb in Aus, with most Aus universities finishing their term in early Dec. Aus graduates who had job offers in NZ used to take the first 2 weeks as leave and start in early Dec as soon as they qualified. I’ve been told by officials from Health Workforce NZ that NZ employers will no longer be allowing that, to protect their own graduates.

      Even in NZ, both medical schools are increasing their intakes. Auckland used to graduate about 160 per year back in 2003 (25% foreign students) but they will be graduating 200 per year (10% foreign) in 2014 and up to 300 per year by 2020.

      Foreign Aus grad still have Singapore as an option but they are also opening a new med school in Singapore (Imperial-NTU). Having said that, population of Singapore has expanded rapidly due to their importation of PRCs but there will be a limit to population expansion on that island.

      Anyone can go work in the US as long as they get a decent mark in their USMLE Part 1, so doesn’t really matter if you have an Australian degree – although one would assume the education standard would’ve been better than some of the newer private medical schools in Malaysia.

      
      
    • on August 13, 2012 at 10:50 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

      Thanks for the comment but I feel NZ will also face the same problem soon! For US, you need to sit and pass the USMLE exam with no guarantee that you will get a job. Every country will obviously protect their own citizens and PRs.

      
      
    • on July 13, 2013 at 4:25 PM | Reply Studied-in-Sg-high-sch-b4

      What about going to Canada?

      
      
      • on July 14, 2013 at 6:06 AM Nav

        It is very difficult to stay in Canada after graduation (but not impossible) so most foreign students there sit the USMLE and go to the US to work. Just as good as doing a US degree in that sense.

        
        
      • on July 15, 2013 at 12:49 AM Studied-in-Sg-high-sch-b4

        I mean those graduates from Aussie uni going to Canada

        
        
      • on July 15, 2013 at 4:13 PM Nav

        No one would do that. You need to sit an exam to work in Canada, even with an Aussie qualification. Only exception is short-term fellowships, but you must already have your postgrad for this.

        
        
11. on August 13, 2012 at 10:05 AM | Reply Pik Khee

    so is there any other suggestion besides IMU ? (private) 🙂

    
    
    • on August 13, 2012 at 10:51 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

      try PMC, Monash, MMC

      
      
12. on August 17, 2012 at 3:08 AM | Reply KE

    Same problem even in Britain. See this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9274753/Up-to-1000-new-doctors-could-face-unemployment.html

    
    
    • on August 17, 2012 at 3:47 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

      Yup, I am aware of this and I was told that most international students will not get internship post from this year onwards.

      
      
13. on August 17, 2012 at 10:54 AM | Reply For Future Doctors: Australia, UK, Ireland and soon…………. Malaysia! « Pagalavan's Avatar

    […] week, I wrote on the situation of internship in Australia . I was also informed via a comment in this blog that Ireland has also shut their doors to […]

    
    
14. on August 28, 2012 at 10:16 AM | Reply sushrut nadkarni

    hello dr. pagalvan.. i’m dr. sushrut nadkarni and i’m from india.. I’v done mbbs and i wanted to ask u certain doubts regarding MRCS.. actually i’m new to ur blog so don’t know where to post those things.. can u please share ur e-mail? My e-mail is sushrut.nadkarni@yahoo.com.. i’ll be looking forward for ur reply.. Tc

    
    
    • on August 28, 2012 at 2:10 PM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

      MRCS or MRCP? I am not sure about MRCS in India.

      
      
15. on August 31, 2012 at 12:22 AM | Reply Maha

    hi, i kind of noticed the comments here regarding the are of need in australia (AON). Im a doctor practicing in australia, and i came in to australia through my husband. so this is a direct experience. There is no such thing as you can practice in area of need without exams. The website is outdated. Currently, everyone whom wishes to practice in AUS need to complete their AMC and as a gp, you would need to complete part 1 and 2 of AMC. There are certain pathways that you need to fullfill. I took the standard pathway and was offered a job in a rural area after my AMC part 1 and IELTS. its a five year memorandum, which gives me time to complete my part 2 to get full registrations. I never had internship experience here, but i completed my housemanship in malaysia and in whole had 5 years experience which they took into consideration. The situation for foreign doctors have become very unpredictable in Australia. 3 years ago, doctors had interviews on phones and was told to fly to australia the very next week! now, the some international doctors are working as cashiers in supermarket. scary!

    
    
    • on September 26, 2012 at 3:07 PM | Reply atuk rafia

      Cashiers? Are you serious? Why don’t they go for lorry driver?

      Oh yeah, they must have driving liscence which is achore in Aust.

      
      
16. on October 8, 2012 at 2:06 PM | Reply Clown of the Year Award ……….. Part 5 « Pagalavan's Avatar

    […] out of almost 60-70 students who applied. I have written about the Australian Internship Crisis here. The international students will be left in the limbo! Many international students intention was to […]

    
    
17. on October 17, 2012 at 7:02 AM | Reply Peter

    Good day everyone.

    I read the posts and am very disheartened and scared. I am a medical graduate from the United States and have been working towards obtaining licensure in Australia. I have not had any internship training/post-medical school training because I returned home to support my parents.

    Now that things have gotten better, my fiance and I are looking to settle down in Australia. We took our AMC Part 1 exams, passed them, and recently took the IELTS. Only after all this were we able to start looking further in what we should do next.

    First off, we did not know how extremely unhelpful the AMC website and other official websites have been. We were led from website to website, with generic responses that did very little to answer our questions. We only just pieced together that we needed to have an internship year completed in order to even be eligible.

    We are very fortunate to have found this page. But now we are even more concerned. What to do next? We’ve now have ideas of looking for internships in Singapore and China. But how do we know that the internship program will be accepted in Australia? Also, if the internship is accepted, are we likely to find placement in Australia? Do we need more than just that 1 year? And is it job placement we are looking for next or hospital residency?

    We are just confused and hope that we can find some one here who can and is willing to help us out.

    Thank you all very much.

    
    
    • on October 17, 2012 at 9:49 AM | Reply Nav

      If you want to work in Australia but are finding barriers, give a thought to working in NZ.

      If you’ve done the AMC Part 1, you just need to sit for the NZREX Clinical Exam to be eligible to work in NZ. That will give you Provisional Registration and you will be treated like an intern here. You will probably have to work in a smaller centre for 1 year (less competition for jobs) and be persistent and apply everywhere but should be able to get a job as long as you can speak decent English.

      Another option is to work in Singapore for 3 years, after which you will be eligible to work in NZ without sitting any exams, regardless of where you obtained your primary degree.

      http://www.mcnz.org.nz

      Much more helpful than their Australian counterpart.

      
      
    • on October 17, 2012 at 10:51 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

      I think Nav has given you the answers.Looking at the situation in Australia, I don’t think AMC will bother much about overseas graduates anymore.

      
      
18. on October 17, 2012 at 4:30 PM | Reply Peter

    Dear Drs,

    Thank you very much!!! In less than a few hours, I received more help than I have had in the past few weeks. My fiance and I are very grateful.

    Dr. Nav:
    Thank you for the NZ info. I took the USMLE Step 2 CS exam and passed, along with the other exams as well. I was wondering if NZ will take that into consideration. Is the Clinical exam difficult to pass? Based on what I read about the Australian Clinical exam, it is considered to be quite tough.

    What upsets me is a few years ago, my fiance and I had bounced the idea around of trying New Zealand. We looked into it and was told quite harshly not to even bother. That New Zealand was oversaturated and was not even considering IMGs. If we had known that smaller centers are looking to fill spots, we would have jumped on it back then. I sent an email to the NZ internship department asking them about possibly waiving the Clinical exam.

    We have been looking into Singapore since discovering the situation regarding Australia. I have not found any information if Singapore requires any exams prior to internships.

    Dr Pagalavan:
    Thank you for this wonderful blog, I will be keeping a close eye on all the posts. Your blog has provided more useful information than any other site.

    Because Australia is my fiance’s home country, I know she still hopes to return one day. When you stated that Australia will no longer bother with overseas graduates anymore, does that mean they’ve shut the door on IMGs?

    If I am successful in finding an internship elsewhere, and after completing that year, is it possible to return to Australia? Or is it better to have further training after that internship year before returning?

    We are very happy to have found this website and hope that we can one day be of use for future doctors as well. Thank you all for your help . We look forward to your posts.

    
    
    • on October 18, 2012 at 3:49 AM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

      Australia has not officially shut their doors to IMG but it is very likely to happen. Only 4 Monash Malaysia students were able to get an internship post in Australia for 2013. At least 60 applied.

      Whether you complete internship or not may not make any difference. They may still ask you to do internship in Australia. Sometimes, they may exempt you depending on your seniority but that is for rural postings BUT you still need to pass your AMC exams.

      
      
      • on November 1, 2012 at 11:00 PM APU

        Hello Dr Pagalavan. Is it really true only 4 students got an internship in Australia?

        
        
      • on November 2, 2012 at 1:38 AM Pagalavan Letchumanan

        Yes, based on my source.

        
        
19. on October 18, 2012 at 7:57 AM | Reply Peter

    We are very disheartened to hear about this situation. To think of all the effort we put in through these years in hopes of a medical career in Australia may be for naught. We were so happy when I passed the exam this past July.

    But we can’t give up, because otherwise there wouldn’t be a future. So we will continue to look into Australia as well as look elsewhere. The idea of New Zealand sounds very appealing. The clinical exam is just another hurdle and I hope I can pass that shortly.

    It’s very frightening not knowing. Unable to make plans because the pieces aren’t put together.

    I wonder if the NZ internship program follows the same cycle as Australia? I’ve been emailing the Singapore Internship department and have yet to hear back. When I do, I hope to share my findings and maybe it will be of help to others.

    I have some colleagues who are from Malaysia. A few are here in the United States working and studying to pass the United States medical exams. With only 4 students obtaining an internship in Australia, I guess the others will be looking elsewhere as well, probably here in the States.

    I hope I may continue to express my concerns and questions regarding the medical process. Whether it be Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, or who knows where else. This website is an invaluable source of information.

    
    
    • on October 18, 2012 at 10:06 AM | Reply Nav

      The NZREX is not a tough exam technically but you will find it difficult if you have not been practicing for a while, as you would any clinical exam. Some IMGs have sought unpaid placements as an observer in order to understand how things are done before sitting the exam.

      The intern cycle in NZ begins 2 months earlier than Australia. It starts in the last week of November, with four rotations each lasting 3 months.

      Once you have passed the NZREX, some larger hospitals (and definitely the medical council) will advise you to apply via the national intern matching scheme. This is not the only way to get a placement though. Jobs frequently crop up throughout the year, especially in Mar-Jun, which is why it pays to make enquiries to individual hospitals. The larger ones are unlikely to hire you but the smaller ones get desperate at times.

      I find it interesting that you were told not to bother about NZ. The only period where there were too many IMGs waiting to get a placement was probably 2003-2006. Malaysians who graduated from NZ medical schools also found it very difficult to get a job at the time, although those that hung around and made individual enquiries to hospitals eventually found jobs. Most of the backlog has cleared up since then but jobs are slowly becoming more scarce because:
      1. More NZ graduates are being produced each year
      2. Australia is becoming less attractive to work for NZers, due to the increased competition.

      
      
20. on October 19, 2012 at 7:28 AM | Reply Peter

    I have to admit, I am more than a little angry at the “advisor” I contacted a few years back. I had my USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK scores already. If I had been given the correct info, who knows where I would be today. It just makes me sick to think that I could already be in my residency training in New Zealand, maybe already finished by now.

    But that’s all in the past, and not something I can change. I can only move forward.

    Dr. Nav, it sounds like you are in the New Zealand medical system. If so, may I contact you directly? I feel bad that I am taking up so much of Dr. Pagalavan Letchumanan’s blog space for personal pursuits. I am very grateful to be allowed to post here.

    Because of all these setbacks, and the fact that I am going to be pursuing medicine in New Zealand, I want to make sure that I make the right choices. What needs to be done first, followed by, and then what’s next, and so on.

    Therefore I would be very grateful if I may contact you Dr. Nav. I was wondering if I may be allowed to post my email here?

    
    
    • on October 19, 2012 at 9:30 AM | Reply Nav

      I’ll contact you if you want to post your email address. Or email it to Dr P, he has my address. Just tell me what you want to know exactly.

      
      
      • on October 19, 2012 at 3:13 PM Peter

        Thank you Dr. Nav. My email is: docpeng@yahoo.com

        
        
      • on December 29, 2012 at 1:43 AM mystic

        hi dr nav,
        i have receantly passed the AMC part 1 and IELTS, but i have yet to get a job . I have not been given a date for the Part 2 as well.
        I was given an option to apply for the coaching programs in victoria under VMPF, but it is so expansive!!!
        I would liek to know your opinion regarding coaching programs in victoria, is it worth is paying so much ??
        thank you

        
        
      • on December 29, 2012 at 4:26 AM Nav

        It is expensive. Depends on how confident you are with passing the Part 2 as the course will do a good job of preparing you for the exam. I don’t know if going for the course will increase your chances of getting a job – that is something a potential employer can answer.

        
        
21. on December 24, 2012 at 2:17 AM | Reply For Future Doctors: Australian Internship Crisis…….. Part 2 « Pagalavan's Avatar

    […] first wrote about Australian Internship Crisis in August 2012. Subsequently, few more places were created to absorb some of the graduates. Based on […]

    
    
22. on December 31, 2012 at 6:45 AM | Reply Maha

    VMPF courses are really expensive… but apparently it is said that everyone whom goes thru it will pass…some intensive ttraining and all. After passing ur amc and ielts, the only place u can get a job is in the country @rural. There is no way ur gonna get into the hospitals as an intern because theres such a shortage for places for internship and priority is given to the australians and those whom studied here. your waiting period for part 2 can be upto 2 years. i got called only after 10 months, so you gotta wait. my advice will be that you just continue working in malaysia till u get a date, or get into the rural areas where they need doctors the most. and a word of advice..its not a bed of roses in the country…think carefully. Plus the standard of living is just so high..good luck

    
    
23. on February 15, 2013 at 8:02 PM | Reply li

    Dr,if i have a choice to choose between monash sunway and newcastle malaysia,which would be a better choice?JPA asked me to pick my own local medical college.Which is the best in Malaysia in your opinion?
    thank you

    
    
    • on February 16, 2013 at 2:57 PM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

      why not IMU? Newcastle got good facilities and 10% of their lecturers are from UK. The rest are from India, Burma, Egypt and Sri Lanka. The last I heard, only 3 Malaysians.
      Monash is more established but facility in JB is not as great as Newcastle. teaching is OK.

      
      
24. on March 17, 2013 at 8:45 AM | Reply Mar

    Dear Dr.nav.Im a Img,who recently passed the amc mcq last yr and waiting for my clinical date. im a australian PR and Nz citizen, but i have lost hope of securing a Rmo position as the australian medical training crisis looms. Would you advice me to appear for nzrex and look for supervised training position in nz in order too get my general registration??

    
    
    • on March 17, 2013 at 12:04 PM | Reply Nav

      Yes, go for NZREX before the door shuts on that too. Don’t expect to get a big city (but small town NZ is much less isolated than small town Aus).

      I know another IMG who tried for months to get an Aussie RMO position after the AMC exam (despite being married to an Aussie PR) – he is now working under the Area of Need scheme but has to stay there for 5 years and do his GP exams.

      Have you actually had SOME working experience somewhere? If you are fresh out of uni and sitting these exams, then it is even more bleak.

      
      
25. on March 18, 2013 at 7:42 AM | Reply Mar

    I have one yr of internship exp and 6 months of work exp after internship in India!! i guess the internship exp will account for nothing!! But the thing about australia is, my whole family is settled there…my dad and uncle are consultants and im banking on them to help me get a observership…etc to make my CV look attractive!!! TBH i do realise that there is a very very little possibility of getting job in regional hospitals….but im keen to go to rural areas ..aka..alice springs(Nt) and rural areas in western australia..how is the situation there???

    
    
    • on March 18, 2013 at 7:58 AM | Reply Nav

      There are 2 types of rural hospitals. The ‘base’ hospitals, which have specialists and where you can do house officer rotations. And the district hospitals, which are run by Medical Officers or GPs, and most things get transferred to larger hospitals. Even the base hospitals are full up these days due to the number of graduates being produced by Australian unis. You may be able to get a spot in a district hospital under of AON scheme but they may make you stay there for 5 years (i.e. no career progression apart from the GP option).

      Some information here may be helpful: http://www.locumsprn.com/area-of-need-recruitment-program/

      
      
      • on March 18, 2013 at 8:46 AM jk

        I though the bottleneck is at Internship level, where there was a shortfall of some 150 places this year? Post internship, there appears to be still a shortage of doctors especially in regional areas, and many IMGs are taken in to fill these vacancies. The AMSA is recommending to the gov to keep all International students graduating from Oz medical schools who want to stay, rather than depending on IMG. But they will need to deal with the Internship place shortage first. The overhang of graduates over Internship positions will get worse, as the number of new graduates increases as new Med Schools start graduating their students, peaking in about 2016.

        
        
26. on March 18, 2013 at 8:47 AM | Reply Mar

    nav, in case i decide to pursue nzrex and clear it,there is ready for work programme which is funded by the MOH. Would you advice me to join that or look for jobs??

    
    
    • on March 18, 2013 at 12:09 PM | Reply Nav

      Yes, but you need to be already residing in NZ to be eligible for that programme. If you have passed the NZREX, I would look be looking for jobs immediately and bugging all the RMO departments in the country.

      While NZ has not increased the number of medical schools, both now have a larger intake, a higher proportion of domestic students, and we are seeing flow-on effects from the Aussie tsunami, with more kiwis returning home because it’s less competitive to get on to training here. A few Aussies have realised that and have moved here as well.

      
      
      • on August 13, 2014 at 11:47 PM SF

        Dr Nav, I have passed my USMLE Step 1 and going to sit for Step 2 ck next year. I am really interested in pursuing my medical career in New Zealand. May I know is there any way that I could get help eg. short course prior to sitting for NZREX? How is the job prospect in NZ? Would it be difficult in securing a place for housemanship for the next couple of years? My email is careen_sunice@hotmail.com. I would be glad if you could provide me some details. Thanks.

        
        
      • on August 15, 2014 at 6:19 PM Nav

        I have replied to you directly, but have also posted here for the benefit of others.

        The prospect of NZREX qualified doctors getting jobs in NZ has diminished significantly. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Even the local students are finding it difficult to get jobs because NZ students from Aus universities are applying for jobs in NZ now due to the oversupply over there.

        If I were you, I would focus your efforts elsewhere as I don’t see this changing in the near future.

        
        
27. on March 18, 2013 at 8:52 AM | Reply Mar

    To Jk,

    to make matters worse, australia will experience shortage of specialists training positions after 2016 i think.The COAG recently increases the gp training positions to 1200(previously 1000) as there is too much demand and competition.

    
    
28. on March 18, 2013 at 8:53 AM | Reply Mar

    intern crisis this yr for australia, JMO crisis nx yr!! according to AMA and AMSA

    
    
    • on March 18, 2013 at 11:39 AM | Reply jk

      That’s why it’s called a tsunami. The excess flows through. The same is happening in Malaysia, as the excess housemans now pass out into junior MOs. Next is specialist training. Eventually, there will be an excess of specialist as well, if they persist with expanding postgraduate training into the private sector, just as they did with undergraduate training.

      At least the Australian numbers are not as frightening, as they can always turn off the IMG tap.

      
      
      • on December 31, 2014 at 5:14 PM leong

        Good day,
        I have obtained 3 offers to do medicine,dentistry and engineering in Australia.
        Does anyone know about the situation of dentists in Australia ie.financially,job& specialising opportunities,opportunities to migrate etc.
        Thx

        
        
      • on January 2, 2015 at 1:27 PM jkl

        All three will be difficult, if getting jobs and staying on is the priority. International medical students have about a 50-60% chance of getting an Internship job this year, including CMI jobs. The situation may improve in 5-6 years time when you graduate, but nobody knows.

        There appears to be a surplus of Dentists, and I know several who failed to get job offers and left for home. It used to be easier. This is probably due increased production of Dentists, in tandem with the doubling of Medical graduates between 2005 and 2014.

        Engineers will now face unemployment, as the resource based boom became bust. This is just starting, and the crunch will likely come in 3-4 years time, exactly when you will be graduating.

        For best guarantee of jobs and opportunity to migrate, do courses like nursing, teaching etc.

        
        
29. on January 5, 2015 at 3:25 PM | Reply Doctor Internship | My Health

    […] For Future Doctors: Australia Internship Crisis … – The National Internship Crisis page is designed as a central repository of information regarding availability of internships for 2013. The situation… […]

    
    
30. on June 25, 2015 at 11:11 PM | Reply For Future Doctors: Australian Internship Crisis …… Part 3 | Pagalavan's Avatar

    […] wrote about the Australian Internship Crisis in 2012 over HERE and HERE. While in Malaysia, PMC students are considering going to Ireland for Internship, the […]

    
    
31. on February 24, 2016 at 10:39 PM | Reply Mv

    I plan to complete mrcp Ireland… What is my job scope outside malaysia. I really Wan migrate

    
    
    • on February 24, 2016 at 11:06 PM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

      Probably Australia/NZ/Singapore

      
      
32. on December 15, 2016 at 12:17 AM | Reply TT

    Hi there, we are in the midst of migration process to Australia. I am an MO with 2 years of experience in PAEDS. I understand that I have to take up AMC examination and then a 12 months internship to guarantee a medical registration. I was reading through all the comments above, seems like the chances of getting the 12 months internship is rather slim, or extremely slim. So the future for doctors in Australia is not actually brighter compared to Malaysia then? Is there anyother pathway or method? Please advice!

    
    
    • on December 19, 2016 at 3:10 PM | Reply Jaz1

      Oh it’s still relatively bright for those who are in Australia.

      
      
      • on December 19, 2016 at 3:39 PM TT

        Hi Jaz, thanks for your reply, much appreciated.

        Are you currently practicing in Australia?

        Thanks!

        
        
    • on December 20, 2016 at 7:28 PM | Reply jkl

      If you are a PR and pass the AMC exams, you will be considered “home” doctor and assured of an Intern place. I am assuming you are not the principle applicant, as you degree is not recognised.

      All “home” students in Oz are assured an Internship place. However, their manpower planning does not include foreign (International) students, who are generally expected to return to their home countries after graduation. In practice, about 2/3 of Internationals opt to stay. That’s where the “saturation” occurs. How to find 300-400 extra Intern jobs. The CMI programme provides for 100 jobs extra. The rest take over vacant places due to locals not taking up offers for various reasons (fail, taking a gap year etc). So far, most, if not all, who opt to stay do get Intern jobs. In previous years, even some Monash Malaysia students got jobs.

      The main obstacle is actually the time required, and the low passing rate in AMC exams. It will normally take 2-3 years to complete, and only about a third of applicants pass. And cost a lot of money.

      
      
      • on December 20, 2016 at 9:47 PM TT

        Hi jkl, thanks for the insight, much appreciated.
        1. During the internship period, am I allowed to choose Paeds or I have go on rotation basis?
        2. How is the medical life in Australia compared to Malaysia?
        3. Which is a better pick, to do work-place based assessment or prior clinical examination?

        Hope I could get some advice on these questions, thanks very much!!

        
        
      • on December 22, 2016 at 7:16 PM jkl

        1. Intern rotations are fixed, but you do have the option to state your preferred rota from the list.

        2. Premature to worry about this.

        3. Don’t understand question.

        
        
    • on December 23, 2016 at 9:39 PM | Reply Pagalavan Letchumanan

      Internship is only guaranteed to for those Australians/PRs who graduated from Australian universities. As such, the chances of those who pass AMC exam getting internship in Australia is very slim.

      
      

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