I received the following link from a commentor in my blog : http://chronicle.com/article/Corruption-in-Russian-Medical/128200/. I have attached the article for easy reading, below. Even, before this article was published in July 2011, I have already heard about this corruption issues. Generally, most incompetent doctors are somehow graduates from Russian medical schools or Indonesia. Probably Egypt may join the team soon as we are beginning to see their graduates. Of course it is a generalisation as I have seen good students from Russia and Indonesia as well( a minority, I must say). What the article has said below is indeed true.
I had spoken to some housemen from Russia who do not even know how to take a history and examine a patient. In fact, some do not even know many of the medical terms. What they told me was very shocking indeed. It seems most of the international students are placed in the international wing ( I do not want to mention which uni is this). The lecturers hardly come to teach and the students are just left alone to learn by themselves. After 5 years, they are all passed to go back to their respective countries! It is a way for the college to make money and they are not bothered about the quality, same as to what is happening in Malaysia currently. Some will pay to pass their exams! In fact, most of these medical colleges do not even bother what is your entry qualifications. They just take whoever , based on whether you can pay or not! Money talks!
Well, having said that, will Malaysian medical schools end up the same as Russian medical schools? Most likely. We can already see it happening. Almost all medical schools in Malaysia seem to be having a 100% passing rate, especially the private medical colleges. It is an indirect form of corruption. What you need is just money and some basic entry qualifications to get a medical degree. I am still hearing of students with poor SPM/A level results being guaranteed a medical seat by our private medical colleges, despite MMC coming up with a guideline of entry qualifications!! Can MMC really monitor all these hanky panky things that are going around? I doubt so.
Medical education should never be commercialised. That’s the reason in many developed countries, all medical colleges are government-funded with strict entry qualifications.
Now, anyone can become a doctor…………………. as long as you have the money………………….
Corruption in Russian Medical Schools Triggers Uproar
By Anna Nemtsova
Moscow
An exposé in the Russian edition of Esquire has roiled education and health officials here by detailing the corruption at six medical schools. The magazine in April published nine short articles by medical students describing the various ways they can pay professors in exchange for passing tests.
It is not exactly breaking news that bribery exists at Russian universities. According to a May poll of 17,500 people by the Public Opinion Foundation, an independent group in Russia, respondents identified higher education as the most corrupt sector of public life, with traffic cops coming in second. But the news that future doctors, dentists, and surgeons often buy grades instead of actually learning the material triggered an immediate uproar.
Perhaps no institution has been embarrassed more than the I.M. Sechenov First Moscow State Medical University, one of Russia’s best-known medical schools. In Esquire and in discussions with The Chronicle, students described an environment where bribery runs rampant. It is so common at the university, known as First Medical, that students aren’t surprised to see a peer casually hand a professor of histology a thick wad of 1,000-ruble bills.
Vladimir, a third-year student who asked that only his first name be used, given the sensitive nature of the topic, told The Chronicle that before exams, his mother helps him pay $200 to $450 in under-the-table payments to faculty members. In exchange, professors help students “survive the brain-crashing number of tests and exams,” he said.
After the Esquire article appeared, First Medical received a letter from the Ministry of Health that ordered university administrators to meet with the ministry. “Our rector and the rector of three other Moscow medical universities were invited to the Ministry of Health last week to discuss ways of fighting corruption,” First Medical’s deputy rector, Igor N. Denisov, said. He did not specify any concrete proposals put forward at the meeting to curb bribery.
One thing the medical schools did not do is deny the corruption. Mr. Denisov said he and the university’s rector, Petr V. Globychko, have been actively trying to fight the tradition of paying bribes. They have asked students to inform the administration when it happens. During the last two years, two professors resigned after being confronted with accusations of taking bribes, Mr. Denisov said. “We let professors with a reputation for taking bribes know that they are not welcomed at our campus, so they prefer to quit voluntarily,” he said.
‘An Epidemic of Ignorance’
But relying on students to come forward may be a faulty strategy.
During his first year of studies, anatomy seemed absolutely incomprehensible, Vladimir said. His fellow student, Anna, said pharmacology “is threatening to drive me crazy.” For both, the problem of passing difficult courses was easy to solve: The medical students paid $400 for a good grade or $500 for an excellent grade at the anatomy department. Last year some professors in the department switched from U.S. dollar to Euro rates, the students said. “Corruption is like an epidemic of ignorance,” Anna said. “As a result of it, our poor skills will be dangerous for our future patients’ health, of course.”
The degree to which the students openly discuss giving bribes—and their willingness to acknowledge their lack of learning—does concern the university’s administrators. “If I were there to witness a professor taking cash from a student, I would have fallen though the ground from shame,” Mr. Denisov said in an interview at his office.
Mr. Denisov said the core issue was low salaries for professors: 50,000 rubbles ($1,800) is an average monthly salary for a professor at First Medical, which enrolls 13,000 to 14,000 students a year. “That is not enough for those supporting their families,” Mr. Denisov said. He also blames parents for spoiling their children “by stuffing their pockets with cash for bribes,” and schools for poorly educating students, who he compared to Raskolnikov, the Dostoevsky character ready to commit a crime without expecting to be punished.
Most mornings, Mr. Denisov arrives by his modest Suzuki at the university parking lot where students park their Infinity or Bentley luxury cars; some even have drivers waiting in the car until the end of lectures. “I do not understand what else but empty thirst for prestige inspires parents to pay so much money for their students to go to First Medical,” the deputy rector said. “A surgery room is not going to be fun if they fear making a mistake, blood, pain, or emotional stress.”
Corrupt Students Become Corrupt Doctors
Not every student can learn all required information, the deputy rector said with a sigh. First Medical has tried to screen applicants for those who may be unable to handle the difficult course load, but some students say they paid bribes to get into the school.
For those with poor learning skills, the university invented a system of extra private classes. To get a credit, a student has to take about 10 private lessons in a subject and pay the professor for those sessions. Instead of curbing bribes, the system quickly led to corrupt practices. To pass the anatomy exam last year, Misha, another student who prefers anonymity, and eight of his second-year classmates had to take extra classes from their professor. Officially, classes cost about 1,000 rubles, but the professor charged students 2,500 rubles, or $89 per class. “She did not give us any knowledge, just asked us questions for about half an hour, then opened the pocket on her white medical gown, so we could slip in our 50-euro or 1,000-ruble bills,” Misha said. He said he was disappointed that the university management did not fire the professor after Misha and his friends reported her to the university management.
Mr. Denisov said that it is the responsibility of the federal security service to prosecute corrupt professors. The service “has its office on our campus—it is their job to check the evidence of crime,” he said. The leader of the nongovernmental National Anti-Corruption Committee and a member of President Dmitry Medvedev’s Human Rights Council, Kirill Kabanov, said the seeds of cheating and abusing rules are planted in Russian students’ mind by the time they reach universities; as a result, “corruption in medical service is literally killing Russia.” Corrupt medical students grow into corrupt doctors. “The health and social-development ministry has been repeatedly involved in scandals where hundreds of millions of dollars disappear from government purchases each year,” Mr. Kabanov said.
Russia’s Ministry of Health says it does not have data on the extent to which corruption is hurting the nation’s health service, but it says it is trying to fix the problem. Sofiya Maliavina, an aide to the minister of health, said the government is pushing medical schools to provide more practical training to students. What’s more, in February the ministry invested 1 million rubbles ($35,624) to establish a telephone hot line to report corruption in the state medical system. The ministry reports receiving an average of 50 calls a day.
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Good to read confirmation from Russia itself about what we have been saying all along. Not so good for the patients in our hospitals.
MMC should make everyone sit a qualifying exam, including those from local medical schools. The exam should be centralised and transparent. I don’t trust one administered by UM/UKM/UPM because these unis have been known to invite certain students for prayers at the surau on the evening before the exam where they get given the questions.
If it is true,then, others are strongly recommended to make friends with these certain students before exams.
These corruption stories already heard since 2009 but the student keep deny it. For UM/UKM/UPM, not only undergraduate medical course but master course as well are biased. In UKM especially, these phenomenon is more prominent in engineering faculty where students are invited to the lecturer room for ‘discussion’ – only Malays.
Read the following link http://www.chinalawblog.com/2010/08/china_malaysia_korea_and_the_middle_income_trap.html
The link above is not medical related but it explain / reflect well the Malaysian Government Mentality. So in 10 years time, prepare to be overcome by Vietnam and Cambodia. Indirectly, I think we are digging ours future grave now.
Yes, this type of nonsence has been going on for many years, especially for preclinical years.
every now and then we read about these articles where the quality of doctors have gone down the drain in malaysia…graduates from russia, indonesia etc are condemned…but unfortunately i other hand am very dissappointed with our senior dr’s who are consultants/specialists in the private hospitals…there are cases where dead patients are kept an extra day/two to maximise the insurance claim before they are pronounced dead(including 2 of my family members)… yes these are experienced dr’s who come from reknown medical schools local and international…i’m sure u’ve heard of it.
its like when u see an indian movie where there’s a corrupt dr asking for fee/paper work before attending to patients.so maybe the intention of being a doctor by these young ones may be more nobel than of their seniors who may think they know it all, scored all aces and come from well recognised universities..but what is the point. people make mistakes, some students may take a while to adapt themselves esp with history taking as indonesian&russian graduates learn in different environments&languages. and yes maybe i’m the only one in this world who thinks everyone and anyone can be a Dr. you dont need good grades or come from a science class. just learn how to google…read and watch you tube…i learnt to read an ECG through the internet in 20 minutes, and many more info’s right to the dosage is available in the net. being a dr is not as difficult as it used to be. there are nobels and corrupts amongst us. embrace those weak ones and support their notion of becoming a DR…teach them, stop condemning the system…it will never improve…Malaysia Boleh remember. so let us improve the quality of our future Dr’s…
You cant study ECG in 20 minutes =( , you made me worried of the future doctors in malaysia.
“you dont need good grades or come from a science class. just learn how to google…read and watch you tube”
What a disappointment. Sigh
py said “good at ECG interpretation”, not “can’t interpret basic ECG”. Two very different things j12.
What a childish and ego comment, 1st part of j12 comment still acceptable until it comes to learn ECG in 20 mins>? WTF, even 20 years of experience i dont think a doctor can say that he/she is good in ECG interpretation, sigh,
haha..20yrs of experience cant intepret basic ECG…i’m worried for all Dr’s…not just the future
Sorry, posted previous comment in wrong part of thread, it should be here:
py said “good at ECG interpretation”, not “can’t interpret basic ECG”. Two very different things, j12.
Exactly..Nav…i said read ECG..not intepret Good ECG..two very things also
Sorry j12. If you believe you learnt all you need to know about ECGs in 20 minutes then I hope you never treat anyone I know. Do let us know which hospital you end up practicing in (if you’re not already practicing), so I can let my family and friends know.
i understand whr u all r goin with my comments(that was intentional just to see some of your reactions)…..no one can be dr through the internet…i was merely being sarcastic …simply meaning in this country any TOM , Dick or Harry can become a dr….how do we differentiate…impossible…but we can help our future Dr’s to become better….yes…train them well….what else can we do…uproot the weeds?i hope there r dedicated Dr’s out thr up for the challenge…there much more Dr’s to come…including 100% foreign equity with 100% foreign staffed hospitals which will be recognised in Malaysia as of 2012…are we malaysians up for the challenge…i hope Dr. Paga could comment on this
“Learning ECGs in 20 mins”,
“Just learn how to google, read and watch youtube..”
Maybe soon Private medical college in Malaysia can offer MBBS course, done fully online!
All you need is just a PC, internet connection and pay the fees.
With a 30 day money back guarantee, of course.
Just pay money to printer and ask him to print MBBS/MD degree with your name on it and frame it up. Our MMC so useless, that in substance, that is what we are doing with most of our medical graduates nowadays – putting a piece of paper in their hands. I believe in India, the pass rate for MBBS exams (govt school) is 40-50%. Professional accounting exams is around 50%. But our schools close to 100%!.
haha…thats pretty much in my opinion….anything is possible isn’t it…my comments above may cause some concerns…but this is wht is happening….i know of students from art stream who have become dr’s..but the public will never know will they..this is our system in Malaysia.
As a cardiologist, I spent an average 1 minutes on a ECG after so many years of training, occasionally I still need to spend 5 minutes on some difficult one, using the calipers to do the mapping.
Dear J12, is good to know some basic from Internet, not all of them are true teaching, just be cautious especially the dose of medications, visit http://www.uptodate.com which is the main website we used in north America for reference (not sure will apply well in Malaysia or not)
It is easy to read ECG, even a nurse can do it, but in interpret it with clinical content, is challenging!!!
Goodluck
(can someone tells me how the medical students, HO or MO were trained in ECG in Malaysia ?)
Yes, you can learn to read basic ECG online….. but you need to know basic science to understand ECG and hows it work…… To become a good ECG interpreter, you need to read thousands of ECG with different conditions; and that can only be achieved from clinical experience… which is sticking around cardiology ward and learn the ECG with the clinical history, etc…. Making diagnosis is about looking at the whole picture, not just base on one ECG. And all this can only achieve in a good medical school which provide the clinical experience…..
If you can learn anything throu the internet, then why bother going to medical school for 5-6 years? Basic history taking, physical examination and basic investigation interpretation is standard throughout the world, no matter where you do your medical training!! That’s the main reason you go to medical school. So, if you can’t do that then you are NOT fit to be a doctor! Learning ECG is 20 minutes………..hmmmmm, I think you are in the wrong profession. Of course in 20 minutes, you will know what is p,q,r,s, t waves. Nothing more. This, even a nurse can tell you. What makes a doctor better than a nurse or MA is when you can tell me how these waves are formed and why you get abnormal waves and it’s interpretation. Finally, how you treat these abnormalities. That’s the reason you go to medical schools. By the time you graduate, you should be able to tell me these. BTW, are you sitting with an internet infront of you all the time when you are seeing patient?
Let’s face it! you need certain level of intelligency to do medicine. If not, why world wide, there is such thing as minimum requirement. Forget about the money making medical schools. If not, why don’t you ask a lorry driver to do medicine and send your family members to him for treatment. I bet you won’t. Of course, there are some GOOD arts student who can do medicine and be a good doctor BUT same can;t be said about a POOR arts or science student. Medicine is more than reading and memorising from a book/internet. Even in top medical schools, the passing rate is never 100% and that shows how tough it is to do REAL medicine. So, if a SPM failure goes and does medicine and passess without any problems, it tells you a lot of the standards in the medical schools.
About private consultants earning money, YES I agree. These are the people who did medicine to make money. That is what I am trying to say in my blog that pls do not do medicine for money. Unethical things like this happens because of wrong reasons in doing medicine!
care to comment of my previous statement..regarding 100% foreign employment/equity in private hospitals…
Yes, it is coming! Infact. some private hospitals have already started to recruit foreigners as radilogist and surgeons. Even Columbia Asia hospitals are thinking of recruiting doctors from India if they can’t get any local doctors. However, I do feel that it will back fire as Malaysians generally will obviously like to see their own local doctors unless the particular foreign doctor is a world renonwed guy in something!
In other countries, their medical councils are strict and would not hesitate to take actions on these doctors for unethical practises BUT will MMC do the same? I doubt so and that is the reason why I don’t agree liberalising the medical sector when MMC can’t even monitor our own medical schools and hospitals.
j12,
Lets face it. The main problem is our medical education is falling onto wrong hands. Nowadays, businessman and politicians are governing these private medical schools, and they want nothing but profit. Try asking them whether they are willing to compromise their profit for better quality medical education…
“but we can help our future Dr’s to become better….yes…train them well….what else can we do…uproot the weeds?”
Yes, I do agree that consultants or senior doctors in the hospital play a vital role in training these young doctors. But if they don’t even fulfill the basic criteria of a competent doctor (i mean BASIC), such as history taking, examination, interpreting lab investigation, giving 1st-line treatment, etc, seriously, this means that the consultants have to train like medical students again! There is always a limit in everything, including dedication..
Some who are willing to put on extra effort – good
But our main concern is those who are not only incompetent, but their attitude sucks. These doctors are increasing in number, it is not something that can be solved by consultants being more dedicated in training them and etc.
You know what is the best solution?
Common exam for all, like USMLE.
And no medical college should be handled by the private sector.
But then hoping that this is possible in ‘bolehland’….you figure it yourself
Who says being a doctor is easy? No!
Yeah, you have the ability to learn basic ECG in 20 minutes, but to read pathology of the ECG and diagnose the patient perfectly, you need YEARS of practice.
If we think a college is having a corrupted examination or evaluation, then to whom should we make the report?
MMC
Can`t found any link to lodge report. And still, if we lodge a report, can we expect any further action from them?
You need to write in to them. Whether they will take action or not, I got no idea. BUT they will need to give feedback to you.
You must understand that most medical schools are well connected!
“including 100% foreign equity with 100% foreign staffed hospitals which will be recognised in Malaysia as of 2012”
Finally, someone who sees the real problem that doctors in Malaysia are gona face. Yes I know dr paga has been saying that doctors are going to be jobless soon, thats gona get worst when say a hospital like Raffles Medical Group.. employing competent Indian, Indonesian and Pakistani specialists opens up a hospital smack in between Sime Darby Subang and Sunway… gone la.. at the end of the day, cronyism, umnoputra-ism, whatnots.. only one thing will speak.. Quality.
You think patients would only want to see a local? Lets put it this way.. a so called Bangladeshi surgeon… who is board certified from US…. speaks perfect English. Lets see what happens.
Globalization is forces value + quality to be easily detected, purchased and appreciated. I am not predicting doom, I am just saying that money will flow towards quality; rightfully so.
Yup about quality. However, speaking English alone is not going to make him popular. I am in private sector and I know the type of patients who visit private hospitals.
If he is a who’s who, then he will do well. Furthermore, don’t expect some well known international guy to come here and work in Malaysia. Unless he is coming here for further training on our naïve patients.
fair enough 🙂
[…] there’s an article saying that Russian med schools are corrupt. Malaysia is also rampant with corruption; yet we produce specialists and consultants. So do the […]
Heard rumor that after 2 years housemanship, all houseman need to apply for MO vacancies. Those who can’t get it might need to consider work in other field or jobless. Good luck to you all, houseman. Time for those with incompetent, laziness and negligence (bad apple) to pay for the price. This is a good move from MOH.
Where is this rumour from?
MOH
Well, I know it is coming as the gov will not be able to provide job to everyone. BUT I hope the selection can be transparent. Will wait for official statement.
my prof. said the same thing 3 weeks ago…
Pay should not be used to attract people to the profession. Also, giving high pay does not mean that they’ll get the best people. They’ll just get a lot of people clamouring for the job, but would they get the best people? More so for medicine where character is as important, or even more then qualifications. I certainly wouldn’t want a worker whom only works for money, without interest nor passion.
If graduates need to sit for entrance exam in order to work as dr./housemanship, they rather go to work in other countries which also need exam like Australia, UK, US etc which they’ll get better treat than in Malaysia 🙂
If you get a place to work! Many of these countries are also closing their doors to foreign doctors!
In Canada, if you are not a local graduate, you can forget about practicing here even if you are allowed to sit for the Entrance exam. They are many medical doctors driving cabs here. Some do get into their own profession after years of trying and consistency. I am not sure they get better treat or not, in my mind they better just stay in their home country.
Having worked and trained with (and now supervised) many doctors from many different countries over the years, I have found that the standard of medical knowledge and competence varies greatly. Just because someone has a medical degree is no guarantee that he/she is safe to practice medicine.
So if you meet a cabdriver who says he’s a doctor who can’t get a job in medicine, do not necessarily assume it’s a fault of the system. It is rare that a good candidate does not make it. Competition breeds excellence.
“but we can help our future Dr’s to become better….yes…train them well….what else can we do…uproot the weeds?”
If you’re “GOOD” you can train good doctors 🙂
Dont give up them!
Be the one country that able to train or produce good doctors 🙂
“but we can help our future Dr’s to become better….yes…train them well….what else can we do…uproot the weeds?”
If you’re “GOOD” you can train and produce good doctors:)
Dont give up them!
Be the one country that able to train and produce good doctors 🙂
Unfortunately every country has their own system. I can say for Canada only because I am a local graduate. For foreigner, everyone is allowed to take the entrance exam (LMCC), however, you can not practise even after you passed the entrance exam, you need to restart the residency and then pass the specialist license locally before practicing independently, there are only few positions for them, so many ended up doing something else. To maintain excellent competency, the positions need to be limited and make the trainees worked hard to gain max experience. When I was a cardiology fellow, the competition was so intense to get into it even for me with some publications in pubmed. I was one of few non local born Canadians get into it and many of my friends were turned down even just applying to family medicine. They were very smart people and some were so well known in their countries before they move to western countries for better life or political reasons. Now in my lab, more than half of technicians here were medical doctors from Asia, eastern Europe and south america. They are very smart people just not lucky enough to get into the system to get training and they have already passed the entrance exam in Canada and US.
I am not sure why Malaysia has so many medical schools, it will dilute the training opportunities for young doctors, malaysia boleh lah for the stupid politicians!!!
the dean also said they have the Best facility in the country
I would like to ask for some advices, my daughter wants to be dentist. Currently, she is having her spm trial. Can you tell me what she should do/futher her studies after her spm?
complete SPm and do a good Pre-U course like STPM, A-Levels or Australian Metriculation/IB and the decide on which dentistry school to enter.
can you please recommend me good detistry university?
In Malaysia, UM is still the best. If not, go overseas to reputable universities
dentistry*
If you can get into local U then UM is still good. Otherwise, try going overseas to UK, Aus or NZ. IMU has a twinning programme with Uni of Melbourne that may be worth checking out.
Even in dentistry nowadays, more and more people are starting to specialise. Would be useful to consider that as well. Dentistry specialisation is all done thru Masters programmes, and you will not get paid during this time (true for UK, Aus, NZ … dunno about Malaysia).
Hi Roshini. Im a government dentist.
Nav is right, public universities is still the way to go. Although I would recommend going to USM. Not playing the favouritism card but I believe USM offers a better syllabus. However, if you’re planning on sending your daughter to a private institution, IMU will be worth a look. Their dean of dentistry is a former Prof at UM and quite a prominent figure in the Malaysian Dental fraternity. Furthermore, their syllabus, like USM, is a tad unique compared to the conservative style’s in other universities.
However, I must warn you that the situation that you’re seeing with my medical counterparts will happen on my side too sooner or later ( We’re thinking perhaps 5-6 yrs from now ) . Like them, dental school are also mushrooming all over the country with private institution like AIMST, MAHSA and others offering courses. Not to mention the one’s returning from overseas.
I’ve no complains quality wise on my side, however, perhaps if I could, I would want to change a thing or two with regards on how my side deals with on call cases, and ward management of admitted patients. Anyway, thats a story for
another day :).
By the way, its good that your daughter wants to take up dentistry. The market is still quite open but for how long, I dont dare say. With all the problems cropping up with regards to taking up medicine, more and more parents and students out there are taking up dentistry and pharmacy courses which is, in a way, a good thing as the future does not bode well for medical ( NO OFFENCE! )
Anyway, I wish your daughter the very best of luck! 🙂
And to Dr. Pagal. I’ve been following your blog with great interest for quite some time now and I must say your writings has been brilliant in shedding light onto the problems plaguing our healthcare system. Its sad really to see a once noble profession crumbling and destroying itself all over like this.
Take A level in Kolej Teknologi Timur and the lecturers will help solve and give answers for the students. bullshit.
Sorry if I’m a bit off the topic, i just want to ask, how to be and what’s the path of becoming a neurosurgeon in malaysia, after posting as HO? Thanks in advance!
2 years HO, another 2 years MO before applying for Master’s in Neurosurgery in USM which is a 4 year course. THis is the only university which offers this postgraduate degree with less than 10 intake per year. Thus, it is a tough competition. If you have MRCS, your chances are better.
The other way: HO, MO —> Masters in Surgery then subspecialist in Neurosurgery which is another 3-4 years extra.
everyone worried n talking about the new doctors coming in, but ever heard of he STPW syndrome? Suck the patients wealth syndrome. This is whats happening here in malaysia private hospitals nowdays. First go la, n fix the malaysian healthcare system from corruption n sucking ppl’s money then talk about other places. Sad to see la seriously. Ppl go for eye check-up, end up getting a ear op! Doesnt mean u get an A you are a good doctor, its the kind of person u are, n how u treat your patients that matters. Just saying
Yes, I have said this before in my blog that if you are into medicine for money, then this is the type of doctors you will become. There are 2 type of doctors in private sector: the one for money and the one who wants to give better service than the gov hospitals. I feel the people are also to be blamed for this as some patients never double check what they are told.
i might be going on a bit emotional here, seeing i didn’t even read the whole article till the end. But the 1st pharagraph just made me fumed with anger.
Since this article is basically about Russian graduate, why is there a need for a mention on Indonesian and even egypt graduates? As far as i am concern, the credibility of being a good doctor lies in THAT person itself. You will be a good doctor when you WANT to be a good doctor. I’m studying in Indonesia, and I’ve seen far far FAR better doctors than in Malaysia who don’t even know the meaning of common courtesy. The definition of a good doctor itself is vague yet people judge us from where we graduated? bullshit.
i know u said that there are minorities (minorities, seriously?) that are good doctors? Why? Because they wanted to be good doctors, not because where they studied. We learn a lot from out hands-on teaching at the hospitals.
As a good doctor , you should read the entire article and articles related to this in my other post before commenting. As a student, you don’t see the actual picture that we are talking about. There are many universities in Indonesia and NOT all of them are good. I know which are the good ones and which are the “for money” ones. I have said this before that it does not matter where you graduate from but what is important is the entry qualifications and interest in doing medicine.
“I’m studying in Indonesia, and I’ve seen far far FAR better doctors than in Malaysia who don’t even know the meaning of common courtesy“. I find this statement amusing because if you have not even started to work as a doctor in Malaysia, how do you know this fact? You probably don’t even know what you are learning is the truth or not. I have seen and lisetened to many Indonesian doctors presenting cases. Yes, they are improving but I won’t say they are better then other doctors in the region. If so, why do you see so many Indonesians going to Singapore and Malaysia to seek treatment?
You will know what you don’t know only when to start working!
how do we learn medicine in indonesia:
-4 years of learning the basic theory and another 1 and a half years doing clinical at the general hospital, and another 6 months experiencing the job at the rural hospital which makes up a total of 6 years.
-lectures in english.
-bahasa indonesia when examining the patients.
-for clinical years i can say that we have a good exposure towards patients because we are free to do everything under supervision from the residents and consultants stuff like history taking physical exam, IV insertion, catheter insertion, lumbar puncture and even assisting an appendectomy or Cesarean section, which, if im not mistaken, from my conversation with friends pursuing medical degree in malaysia or russia, cannot be done by medical students. we have clinical hours every morning and got somehow “bulied” by the residents asking us to do anamnesis, physical exam and doing lab work, and even dragging patients by our self to the radiology department to get x-rayed and this stuff going on everyday in our practical years up until afternoon and then bed site teaching afterwards everyday and seating in morning reports every morning. and also the 14 hours of night shift twice a week where we learn on how to stabilize and doing observation and recognizing the first sign of medical emergency. yes i said we got “bullied” by the residents even the stuff that is actually the nurse stuff but that actually is the best way to memorized the steps in treating patients.
-the last semester (the 12th semester) of our days in indonesia, is very important in which, we are given full responsibility to treat patients like a real doctors, but, still indirectly supervised by the staff doctors during morning round. but sadly, im gonna be the last batch for this last 6 months program.
-as an alumni that wears the almameter from one of the medical faculty in indonesia, it sickens me to see many people saying that studying in indonesia is bad when actually, everything comes down to the will of ones. no matter where you received your medical studies, it does not matter as long as you are serious in pursuing it. but yeah, truth to be told, “boys will boys” is like “students will be students”. malas belajar, malas jaga malam, malas examine patients, malas malas malas and stuff.
-in my university, theres no such thing as “you pay you passed”. many medical students from malaysia got extended just because they didnt passed only ONE station in OSCE, or ONE paper in multiple choice exam, or failed their SOCA even if they come from a family with wealth.
-in conclusion, i think studying medicine in indonesia is better at the practical years because of the overcrowding citizens and increasing poverty that leads to patients come all the way to the teaching hospital to get treated and the lack of doctors in the hospital make us, the medical students, get good exposure in treating patients.
i am currently in my final semester.
universitas padjadjaran bandung, indonesia.
You must understand that there are many universities in Indonesia. Not every uni is good or as you have described. I know that padjadjaran, gajahmada are some of the best indonesian in universities. Can’ t say the same about the others.
Sorry sir, i understand what youre trying to say. I cannot stress enough that the needs for routine survaillance of the students performance is very important if the government agreed on accrediting overseas medical faculty to ensure that the faculty is doing their jobs and the students are achieving the standards. Right now, all that MARA and JPA are asking is just annual results without proper actions and i dont think that is enough. Keep on writing good stuff sir.
Dear all,
What’s the point for us to argue and pinpointing here which university is good or bad? I believe all universities have some kinds of corruption issues going on, be in the one in UK/USA, or Indonesia/russian. From the articles ur commentor posted, we knew that they’ve disclosed this issue to public and are serious in initiating various methods to fight against corruption. But what about our local medical universities? beside denying or rather, just remained ‘silence’, im yet to see any serious action being taken to curb this problem!
I dun really understand why ppl keep writing articles accusing medical graduates from oversea especially those from indonesia, russian n egypt. For me, i think they are just d unfortunate one, some of them would have been ‘blacklisted’ by those senior specialist/consultant, into an ‘incompetence’ category, even before they graduated…their presences are merely at the wrong time and space.
First of all, in what position are they able to make any changes to our current health system? Quite a number of them are sent by gov under scholarship to pursue their studies there, who’s it to blame now if that university isnt up to par in standard of qualification? Why our gov recognise them in the first place?
Articles with repetitive accusations on how bad this or that graduate from, wont lead to any solution. Since they’re here, our job is to train them to b a better one. I rarely seen any suggestion or actual action being offered to solve this problem. Instead of blaming endlessly, ask ourself what we can do to stop all these bullsh1ts? I believe some of u are in certain position/authority to make some changes over this issue. For better future of our country, we need to face this seriously, changes are yet to be made!
I like this +1
” Lets face it. The main problem is our medical education is falling onto wrong hands. Nowadays, businessman and politicians are governing these private medical schools, and they want nothing but profit. Try asking them whether they are willing to compromise their profit for better quality medical education…”
THY
Dear THY,
“I believe all universities have some kinds of corruption issues going on, be in the one in UK/USA, or Indonesia/russian.”
Actually, you are very wrong on this point. The institutions in UK, Australia, New Zealand, US and Canada do not have ‘corruption issues’ comparable to the ones highlighted in various articles we have read. In fact, I would go as far as to say that they are almost beyond reproach in this regard. Students are treated fairly once they enter medical school. Examinations are of a high standard and not a hint of cheating is tolerated. Plagiarism is treated seriously, even copying an assignment from a senior will result in some sort of punishment (they have sophisticated software to detect this nowadays). No one would even think of bribing their lecturer to pass an exam. While many may not have the same clinical exposure that students in Asia get (such is Western medical practice these days), their medical schools equip them with enough basic medical knowledge to allow them to practice safely once they graduate. I cannot say the same for many (not all) graduates of Russian/Ukrainian/Indonesian universities.
“But what about our local medical universities? beside denying or rather, just remained ‘silence’, im yet to see any serious action being taken to curb this problem!”
Lots of people have written about the state of our local universities. Look thru the blog postings. They too have problems, mainly due to the fact that there are so many of them: Not enough qualified lecturers, too many students, easy admission criteria, inadequate exposure in clinical years due to large number of students and housemen, etc.
“I dun really understand why ppl keep writing articles accusing medical graduates from oversea especially those from indonesia, russian n egypt. For me, i think they are just d unfortunate one, some of them would have been ‘blacklisted’ by those senior specialist/consultant, into an ‘incompetence’ category, even before they graduated…their presences are merely at the wrong time and space.”
I agree with you on some points here. There are those that are unfortunate to be lumped in with everyone else. I know there are good students who went to these universities, either because the govt sent them there are they could not afford to go elsewhere. Some of these students will still do well because they will take the initiative to find out where/how they are deficient and will make the effort to learn. However, they will only realise what they do not know once they start practicing as a HO. But people ‘keep writing these articles’ because there are a lot of mistakes happening due to incompetent graduates.
“Quite a number of them are sent by gov under scholarship to pursue their studies there, who’s it to blame now if that university isnt up to par in standard of qualification? Why our gov recognise them in the first place?”
I agree – why did our govt recognise them in the first place? Because we have a lousy government. Many decisions are made for the wrong reasons – you can start a whole other blog on that topic. I suspect money is at the core of the issue. If some medical schools can take money from students and not teach them anything, I’m sure they can give a little back to accreditors from Malaysia as ‘commission’ (this is not an accusation, just a thought – I have no proof). If they charge RM30k per student per year, and they have 50 students from Malaysia each year for a 5-year course, that is RM7.5 million per year for that medical school – and we know their expenses aren’t that much cos they either piggy back on the infrastructure already in place or students just don’t get taught.
“Since they’re here, our job is to train them to b a better one.”
I have commented on something similar to this before. To use kindergarten analogy, the MOs and consultants are here to teach you how to make proper sentences and write an essay. They are not here to teach you ABC – that is the job of the medical school. Otherwise, why bother going to medical school? We could just take people in after Form 5 and make them do apprenticeships in hospitals and call them doctors after 3 years.
“I rarely seen any suggestion or actual action being offered to solve this problem. Instead of blaming endlessly, ask ourself what we can do to stop all these bullsh1ts? I believe some of u are in certain position/authority to make some changes over this issue. For better future of our country, we need to face this seriously, changes are yet to be made!”
So after all this you admit that there is a problem. Actually, if you look thru the blog postings, there are many many good suggestions that have been made. The problem is, we have incompetent individuals in positions of power. Even when someone at the top tries to make some changes (e.g. when Tan Sri Ismail Merican wanted to implement exams for all graduates), it’s get blocked by the govt (who were probably worried their sponsored students will fail or parents of other students who fail will make noise cos all their money would’ve been wasted).
Many people who write and post on this blog do so because they want their stories heard. Hopefully, all the posts here will one day be brought to the attention of someone who actually has the power to implement change. Your average medical consultant in the govt service cannot do much. It is the politicians who need to stop thinking about their next kickback/commission and actually start making some brave decisions.
i am currently a final year student from the university mentioned in the article. it is true that corruption is kinda serious here (im not sure about the other universities from russia, so, i will just talk about my university and my own experience). but let me make a little intro about our uni. there are 2 departments in our uni (the local and foreign students department) and the foreign students department again subdivided into 2 mediums, the english medium and the russian medium. most of the malaysians (98-99%) are in the english medium.throughout my 6 years of education here, personally, i never encounter any (not even once) of my professors or doctors asking for money to let me pass any of my exam. they do ask for money, well, at least that’s my experience. however, i heard from some of my friends from different countries (in russian medium), corruptions are quite serious over there. the uni have tried to fight the problem, but so far, im not sure how successful their efforts are.
i did my practicals and attachments in one of malaysian hospitals every year and i tried doing it overseas once last holiday. yes, it is true that a lot of us (or maybe just me) lack of quite a lot of knowledge and practical skills. a lot of us are aware of that. and we are trying to improve ourselves. i agree that a doctor cant be trained merely through books or internet, but these are at least we can do. our university do has a lot of good professors and a lot of them are well known in the european countries, but personally, i think a lot (but not all) of their knowledge are not the most updated knowledge (maybe during USSR period, i guess). as their country are big and powerful, they use their own classifications and terminology in their medical field. i think that is why we are considered “aliens” (quoted from a malaysian surgeon) back in malaysia. we, the students are struggling to maintain a “balance” between learning russian stuff or malaysian/international stuff. sometimes, we don’t even know the things we learned here is it applicable internationally, unless we found it in harrison’s or bailey and love etc. i personally tried once to use international/newer classifications and Mx, but it doesn’t end well and i was kinda marked by the doctor as a weak student (for not knowing their stuff).
the claims that we don’t see patients are untrue. we do see patients, but not as often as in other med school. as far as i know, in most of the malaysian med schools (as i observed), basic core knowledge should be self-studied but in hospitals and lectures, doctors and professors will only pin-point out the important points and to see patients. however, here, our lectures are based on topics, eg heart failure, MI etc and the important points are to be searched by ourselves (not even mnemonics given). after that, the doctors will bring us to see patients or the topic itself. we are allowed to see patients ourselves when we need to write a patient report. but i agree that it is not enough. the only thing we can do is to see more when we are doing our attachments during holidays.
i am not trying to defend my university or to condemn anyone. i am here in russia mainly due to my family financial status and my personal interest of medicine, therefore, i am not trying to complain of anything here as i know my parents have given their very best to support me in fulfilling my dreams. and i know it’s a bit naive to ask for mercy during my “soon-to-come” housemanship. but i really would like to ask that doctors back home, please judge us according to our knowledge (individually) but not according to where we are from. there was once when i was during my attachment in malaysia, i met a specialist; let just say he has a “special view” towards russian students (even when we first met him). i followed one of his bedside teaching, i answered the exactly same answer as a student from other uni, but my answer was wrong but his was correct. i am not sure how often this kind of situation is happening in malaysia, but, what i am trying to say is, please treat us as other students or HO as we are also really sincere to learn too.
i would like to add on sumtin. the university do ask for money, when students themselves skipped too many classes or they didnt turn up in exams.i the money is to pay for extra classes that the professors need to spend his private time for the extra classes. even after they pay, they still need to take the exam. its more like a fine than a bribe. but if we attend our classes and pass our exams on time, then there is no need for us to pay any ‘extra money’
Medicine is learned by seeing, clerking, examining and diagnosing real life patients. This is how we learn medicine those days and even now. Lectures are useless when it comes to clinical years. You see patients, read the book and see the patient again. That’s how we learn to be a doctor. No amount of classroom teaching is going to make you a better doctor. You need to spend time in the wards and bedside teaching is the most important clinical year teaching.
All that you have said above, I am aware.
thank you for your advice, Dr., and i agree with you that patients are always the best textbooks for all medical students and doctors. however, the russian medical education is based more on textbooks than patients and we students can’t do much except for finding chances to see more patients during our attachment and hopefully in our hospital as well. it might not be sufficient but we are really trying our best.but it really depends on the doctors and hospitals. some doctors will give each of us a patient to clerk each lesson and quiz us later but some doctors prefer lecture-style learning even we requested to see patients
in the past, some of our seniors tried to sound out some of our concerns to our university before, unfortunately, they end up “failing” certain subjects. freedom of speech in our university is not well practice (because of their pride and ex-communist country, i guess). we the students end up being blamed by the university that we didn’t work hard enough for this and that issues.
Great comments anakmal, but I beg to differ on your final one. Being a Russian medical school undergrad myself, I know how most Malaysian students really behave. Let me list down how we actually sabotage our own clinical experience:
1. When the previous DG made it compulsory for us to do our clinical attachments in Russia, 99% of the Malaysian students bitched and complained. Not having enough holidays and “miss my family” were the main reasons.
2. Taking photos of the attending doctor’s patient history file instead of seeing and examining the patients ourselves.
3. While local Russian students busy themselves after classes by attending society meetings and doing calls with lecturers, Malaysians do catering, futsal leagues, religious gatherings, charity concerts, cultural dances etc.
4. Being extremely incoherent in our spoken Russian and trying to force everybody to speak English when we know fully well that this is Russia, not UK or USA.
So there you have it, and the list goes on. We not getting enough clinical experience is essentially our own undoing in the first place. The other international students in their Russian medium seem not to have these problems…
i did my attachment here ni moscow, when DG make it compulsory to do it here. and i made comparison, i found out that we actually learn more doing attachment in malaysia. ok, let me tell you what we did here and what i usually do in malaysia and what i did in another country (during attachment) and you make the comparison yourself.
in moscow:
early in the morning, we traveled 1 hour from our hostel, some doctors asked us what we wanna/suppose to do. we showed them the list of things we are supposed to do (eg, do ECGs, simple injections, b/p taking etc) and here’s their reply:” we don’t do these kind of things here. go and help me to bring this thing to this place.” some students got this:”please help us to wash the toilet and mop the floor” and more “medically related” – to fold cotton balls. my group, i would say that we are the more “lucky” ones, we asked the nurse that can we take some blood and we had a chance to practice blood taking among our friends.we are allow to practice some delivery procedures on dummies. we asked for permission to clerk patients ourselves, but our doctors responded with a arrogant tone:”you can’t speak good russian, you can’t do that.” it’s only we the students that go and clerk patients ourselves, without our supervising doctor knowing it. we even need to buy our own sphygmometer if we wanna help the doctors to take patient’s b/p. we tried to follow ward rounds, but the professors/doctors only whisper (literally) among themselves and we cant hear what they said even we stood just beside them (can’t blame them, they just don’t want to disturb other patients, it’s a russian culture thingy). i can’t speak for other universities in russia, this is merely my personal attachment experience in moscow, it maybe different from your uni. but, friends from different russian uni said they didn’t learn much either.
in malaysia:
early in the morning, we need to reach the hospital before 8am, before all MOs and specialists are there (no complaints really). in ward round, we were quizzed with various questions and i learned a lot just following morning rounds. we can clerk any patients that we like as long as the patients are ok with that. we can do a lot of procedures, eg, blood taking, inserting CBD, NG tube, suturing etc. i was once allowed to put in ETT and conducting labours (but i passed because i was lack of confidence and im regretting until now). what i wanna say is, in malaysia, as long as we ask, and under supervision, we can really do a lot of procedures. some of my friends even assisted in surgeries. i helped HOs filling up forms and insert branulas (kinda like a free labor, but im happy to do them because i know, in future, i need to learn to do them, so, why not learning them now) we are allowed to help in resuscitate patients as well (of course, just simple stuff like CPR, bagging etc) we met a lot of our seniors and doctors who gave us guidance and advice about what we russian graduates are lacking off. with permission, we followed some med schools’ bedside teachings and lectures. our A&E HOD even gave a few lectures himself on various topics, just for us, medical students and the doctors took us seriously.
in another country that i went last summer:
over there, i was treated as if i am a exchange student. i can follow ward rounds, attending their lectures and teachings. and the doctors treat every student equally, regardless which uni are we from. although i am not allow to perform any procedures, i was given chances to present cases in grand rounds. we can clerk any patient that we like and the HOs there will point out which patients are “worth while” clerking (as in patients with typical complaints/signs of certain diseases that we should try to appreciate).
of course, there are students who come for attachment in malaysia just to get their documents and paper signed. i have seen some came in on 9am+, stood at aside and disappeared after 11am. but after comparison (by myself), doing our practicals in malaysia or some other countries is really more beneficial than doing it in moscow, at least for those who take things seriously. that is the main reason that we refuse to do it here and we encourage our juniors to do it in malaysia or some other places. missing home and food etc are just minor part of it and it’s not as important as said.
as i said earlier, personally, i tried to write my patient report myself, however, i was then thought to be a “clever” student (100% quoted from our doctor). what is it so “clever” about for trying to use newer classification like for ACS (which she said she doesn’t understand/know, не поняла) instead of Q/non-Q wave MI? and our doctor is expecting us to follow 100% of their Dx and Mx without having our own opinions, even symptoms that the patient didn’t tell us. my friend’s patient even cheated him intentionally (to have fun, i think) with symptoms that she doesn’t have and only admits it after the doctor clerks her again. our doctor kinda expecting us to do translating work more than thinking by ourselves. she gave me the summary and ask me to “copy” it after rejecting my report. so, for me, i kinda like did 2 sets of the report, one for my own “reference” and another 1 is just for the sake of submission. another purpose of taking photo is for the lab results and ECGs and we are expected to include all the values into the report.
i agree with what you said about our “study culture” (a term that i usually use). our “study culture” here is not as good as in malaysia. this is a problem of students, and i don’t blame the university for that. but i would like to quote a phrase from a head of nurse (a sister):”life is not just medicine, you must learn things and know people from different fields as well.” different fields, i think it includes, religion, management and leadership, sports, finances, cultural activities etc. besides,when i was doing my attachment, i met a canadian med student, he said he had a culture shock from seeing asians study so hard. in his med school, they do a lot of recreational activities/non-medically related activities themselves too (i think its a Caucasian thingy). and here in moscow, i see malaysian are generally more hardworking than the russians and a lot of our professors will agree with it. but i strongly believe that if everything is in moderate, then its ok to go and enjoy ourselves once in a while and also attend/organize religious gatherings sometimes. but of course, set our priorities right.
i think we will agree is that, generally speaking, our russian proficiency is bad. but, one thing for sure is, we also took our effort to learn it. when we are learning english, it took us at least 4-5 years to master the language in our daily life, but even that, we still can’t understand any english medical textbook because of the technical terminology, right? its is the same as russian, it is true that we can use (or at least try to use) russian in basic daily conversation and even to clerk patients, but it is still difficult for us to understand some medical terms (unless it is directly translated from english). i think we will also agree that we are not expecting the patients can speak english, but at least provide us english lectures or at least english lecture slides or the least, give us the lecture slides earlier, so that we can at least translate it ourselves at home. i don’t think we are asking too much since we are in english medium, right? however, since it is not possible, then what we can do is to study our own international english textbooks, at least we can understand more and try to catch up in the lectures.
i have to disagree with the point that you mentioned that the russian medium international students seems don’t have any problem. they do have their own problems back at home, an african friend told me before, but since it’s their own problems, i don’t see the need to mention it in details here but they are more of least the same as us.
i have to agree with Dr. Pagalavan and some comments above that medicine is not a subject that we can just read textbooks to excel or at least a “safe” doctor. and i also agree that as students, we need to do our part too and i can see a lot of us are at least trying to do our part. the problem should be fixed from 2 sides.
P/S: Happy New Year, everyone!
Anak Mal, you have the right attitude. You realise you are in this situation and it seems you know what you need to do to rectify it. Good luck in your future studies.
To Anak Mal
What is your email?
To Anak Mal
At which hospital in this country you did your attachment?
i am sorry, i would like to remain anonymous, because i might get into trouble if the dean of my uni find out this, although the chance is slim, i still prefer not to take the chance. i am really sorry, but i hope you can understand. or maybe you can send an email to my anonymous email address, and we can talk there? anakmalaysia@mail.com
Anak Mal, it’s encouraging to see that there are Malaysian students like yourself in Russia. I wish there were more of you, really.
I’ve experienced practicals in both countries as well, and I find that in Malaysia, you are lucky if you get to do all those procedures which you mentioned. It’s the exception, not the rule. However, practicals in Russia is more structured – there is a list of things you have to do. What year of practicals did you make cotton balls? Did you know that your position for that practical is called “Nurse’s assistant”? My advice is to do your practicals here in July, go back to Malaysia and do some more in August. But you know, the replies usually are “I need my holiday”.
When you say that we need extra-curricular activities, I agree. But you and I know deep down that that’s not really what’s happening. When the activities take up more time than you spend studying, it really isn’t extra-curricular anymore isn’t it? People I know who organize these events usually have their names appear on the “pending’s” list, so I don’t think that they’re the “excellent balanced students” that they paint themselves to be…
All in all, Russia’s medical workforce is much much larger than Malaysia’s. The competition here is much greater. Don’t be fooled by the assumption of how Malaysian students are model students here – it is no more. If you really knew what the local students are achieving with their time, you will be shocked. Russia is Malaysia in 5 years, where doctors can be out of job, and you might need to pay for your housemanship training.
Happy new year!
thank you Nav and Malaysian Child Too…by the end of this year, i will be graduating and working. i know i might be lack of something. an MO once said:”we are here to cover the gap, not a big hole.” and i just hope that the “hole” is not too big.
as a senior student here, i am trying my best to encourage my juniors to study more and focus more on international books and knowledge.
Malaysian Child Too, yes, i agree that there are differences in management of elective students in malaysian hospitals too. as in, some are allowed to do practicals and some don’t. but there are something that are still the same, like wards, CME, clerk and examine patients, following bedside teachings etc. as far as i know, what we need to do is just ask. there was once the current DG visited our school, he said that in malaysia, its really up to us what we want to learn, they will only facilitate us. we need to tell them what we would like to do. so, what i usually do it, before i start my attachment, i will try to list down what i want to learn/achieve in that period and i will find chances to do hit those “targets”.
im not sure about your uni, but it seems like our uni doesn’t have a system to “cater” such a large scale of students to do attachment here. i don’t know why, maybe they were not ready that time. i did my attachment here at the end of my 4th year studies. for those 3rd years, they were told to do things that i mentioned above. that is why the subsequent year, when the DG was here, we asked him to review the necessity to do our attachment here. and i am glad that they have withdrew the decision for the best interest of students (for us to familiarize with the malaysian system and their way of Mx). of course, this is just my point of view.
yes, i do agree most of the event organizers might be having problems in their studies. but i still see some exceptional. anyway, we can’t stop them to have activities for religious and cultural reasons, what we can do as friends is just to advise them and remind them of their priorities. after all, they are at least 18 y/o, young adults, it’s their lives, their choices. as a senior student here, i have tried my best to remind them, and i think that’s all we can do. take it or not, its their choice.
as far as i know, for the locals students here, there are 2 categories, the good one, who did their state exams and passed with their government scholarship to study, the creams and the not-so-good ones, who failed their exam and their parents are paying their tuition fee. i have attended their classes of both “categories” and i have seen the difference. the good one, the professors just throw out questions, and the students will answer themselves. the not-so-good ones, they can’t answer simple questions, professors teach everything but they still don’t understand. anyway, 1 thing i learned it here is, we choose our own path, good or bad. besides, it is not assumption that i made, it is based on my personal experience and testimonies of friends, professors, our deans and even our ambassador. i think “model student” is also a word that put too much credits on malaysian students here but the hard work and effort of the malaysian students here should be seen too.
most russian/crimea/ukraine graduates dont deserve to be doctors..most of them do not perform well as housemen..some are even downright dangerous esp when they become MOs and make decisions on pt management, and they cause severe harm to patients..usually these good for nothing people are those who have rich parents who can afford to send them there..ur effing rich for god sakes..why the F do u want to be Drs for??To all russian/crimea/ukraine grads dont pretend that u dont know how we Drs view u as – incompetent, unreliable, dangerous Drs..enough said
Dun just blame them…even local grads r like that nowadays.
What lolz said is true. Mostly local especially public universities grads r like that nowadays with easier entry qualification through the 10 months matrikulasi qualification preferred by the government. Even if you scored straight 5As in STPM, most likely you are offered vet science or pharmacy.
I hope you are not attempting to mimic my nick in this blog. ? 🙂
Dear “stupid russian grad”…
May i ask what your credentials are that gives you the authority to make these comments. Apart from cursing and swearing, you havent laid out any facts to substatiate your comments. Now we give you an opportunity here to list out your issues with Russian qualified doctors.We are waiting ok. And by the way..could you please also tell us which Uni you gradtauted from.
Hi nice reeading your blog