For Future Doctors: Housemanship, Medical Officer and Postgraduate Training (Part 3)
It has been more than 1 month since I last wrote on this topic, the last being on rural postings. I have been extremely busy for the month of October with increasing load of patients in my hospital as well as some domestic house renovation. My house kitchen renovation has been successfully completed but I am yet to complete the painting works, which I am doing myself!
Let’s look at the postgraduate training in Malaysia. I have written about housemanship, district/rural postings and problems of oversupply of doctors in the near future. The issue of oversupply of doctors by 2015 will lead to another very big issue: postgraduate training. Many of the budding doctors and medical students are not aware that the postgraduate training in Malaysia has many limitations and problems. At this point of time, most postgraduate trainings are dependent on Master’s programme conducted by the local universities. Once upon a time, we were totally dependent on UK-based exams and training but unfortunately we lost it along the way. Currently, only MRCP (UK) – Internal Medicine, MRCPCH (UK) – Paediatric and MRCOG (UK) can be done in Malaysia. FRCS (for surgeons) used to be available to Malaysians but not anymore. None of our hospitals are recognised as a training centre for FRCS, which is now known as MRCS. Thus, for any surgical field in Malaysia, you will need to do Master’s programme!
MRCP (UK) – Internal Medicine
Membership of the Royal College of Physicians (UK) is a well-known exam all over the whole. It has a very strong reputation as an entry exam for speciality training in UK as well as in other parts of the world. It is conducted regularly, usually 3 times a year in various countries. Malaysia is one of the centres for the MRCP exams, all 3 parts.
MRCP Part 1 can be taken about a year after your graduation. It is a theory paper. After passing your Part 1, you need to clear your Part 2 (written paper) and Part 3 (clinical) within 7 years. It is usually coordinated by University of Malaya, where the exams are usually held. Just for your info, the passing rate for MRCP (UK) is always around 45-50% worldwide! You need to have a proposer to sit for these exams, who can verify that you have undergone sufficient training to sit for the exam. If you fail miserably, your proposer will be notified.
Since MRCP (UK) is not a specialist exam in the UK, the Ministry of Health, Malaysia only recognises and gazette’s you as a specialist after undergoing further training of 18 months post MRCP (UK). You will need to submit a log book and recommendation by your HOD before being gazetted. This rule applies for all other overseas degrees which include MRCPCH and MRCOG. You need to undergo this gazettement process in order for you to be recognised as a Physician by the National Specialist Register (NSR).
MRCPCH (UK)
MRCPCH is similar to MRCP (UK) but meant for those who wants to become a Paediatrician. It‘s examination structure is similar to MRCP (UK).
MRCOG (UK)
MRCOG has 2 parts but the second part has both written and clinical component. However, you need to undergo training in O&G department for at least 4 years before being allowed to sit for Part 2 exams. One of the major issues in sitting for MRCOG is the fact that there are not many MRCOG holders in MOH to sign as a proposer for you!
Master’s programme
Now, this is where a big problem is going to appear soon. For all other fields, you are totally dependent on Master’s programme. This includes all surgical fields. Master’s programme is a fixed 4 year programme.
In order for you to be eligible to apply for the Master’s programme, you should have completed at least 3 years of service with good SKT marks of at least 85% and above, recommendation from Head of Department and confirmed in service. You also need to attend an exam or an interview before being selected for certain disciplines.
The major problem that I foresee in the future will be the number of places that are being offered. As of this year, the total number of places available is only 600, all disciplines included. Imagine, with 6000 new doctors coming into the market every year from now onwards, only 10% is going to get into the Master’s programme annually. Furthermore, you must understand that the selection process is never transparent, the typical Malaysian scenario as well as the quota system! Most of it is done by the Universities.
The government is planning to increase the number to 800 next year but the situation is rather critical in the Universities as there are not many Senior Professors to supervise the programme. I must say that the standard of Master’s graduates have dropped significantly over the last 5-10 years. We have Master’s graduates who can’t do surgery but have passed the exams! I just hope that the Master’s programme do not become another “specialists mill” like our undergraduate medical schools!
There are 2 types of Master’s programme, the open and closed system. In the closed system, you will do the entire 4 years within the university, like in UKM Hospital, UH and USM Hospital. The open system may have various programmes, like 2 years in MOH hospitals and another 2 years in the Universities etc. You may even do the entire 4 years in MOH hospitals for some of the fields.
After completing your Master’s programme, you need to undergo another 6 months of gazettement process before being recognised as a specialist. Furthermore, you will be bonded for 5-7 years for receiving scholarship during the programme, which is compulsory!
Subspecialty training
With the advancement in medical field, every discipline now has subspecialty training. As such, everyone will try to do certain subspecialty after gazettment as a specialist by MOH. Generally, the subspecialist training is about 3 years except for certain field like Cardiothoracic and Urology which may take 4 years. Again, whether you get a place or not depends on availability of post and demand for that particular field. For example, the waiting time for Gastroenterology training can even go as far as 1-2 years.
Recently, to overcome this major problem, MOH has taken another step backwards. You can only apply for subspecialty training 1 year after you have been gazetted as a specialist. For MRCP holders, this means 2 and half years after passing MRCP (UK)!
Usually, the subspecialty training is divided into 2 parts, the first part (the first 2 years) will be done locally and the 2nd part (remaining 1 year) will be done overseas. The MOH will provide a fully paid scholarship for overseas training of 1 year but you will be bonded for 3 years. If you have received undergraduate scholarship and Master’s scholarship, you will be bonded a total of 20 years in service!!
Singapore
One good advantage that we have is Singapore. Unfortunately, only UKM and UM undergraduate degrees are recognised in Singapore. Our Master’s degrees are NOT recognised elsewhere. Thus, we would not be able to work in Singapore with any other medical degrees or even with our Master’s degree.
However, Singapore does recognise MRCP, MRCPCH, MRCOG and MRCS. Thus, if you have any of these degrees, it supersedes the undergraduate degree and you should be able to get a job in Singapore. Singapore is also a recognised centre for MRCS Part 3 training, which you can’t do in Malaysia. So, if you have MRCS Part 1 & 2, you can go to Singapore to finish your MRCS training and sit for the Part 3.
I must say that Singapore’s postgraduate training is more structured and organised with their BST (Basic Specialist Training) and AST (Advanced Specialist Training) programmes. I have written about this in my MMA article “Back from the Future: From 1st world to 3rd world”.
For all of you out there; budding doctors, medical students, houseofficers and medical officers; the future is very bleak for the medical field in Malaysia. The oversupply of doctors will get to you sooner or later. My advice to those who insist on doing medicine for passion is to choose an undergraduate course that is recognised internationally. Then, pursue a postgraduate degree that is also recognised internationally. If not, you will end up with a lot of frustration in the future. Jobless doctors in the future will be a reality!
If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to respond.
Pagalavan's Avatar
dr. pagalavan, don’t be stingy. hire someone to do the painting. besides, can you paint?
Of course I can paint! Use to be my hobby when I was young.
thanks for ur info dr. May i have some advice from u? i m 1st yr usm med student, and i am interested in internal med.
I would suggest MRCP then. BTW you got a long way to go…….. By the time you graduate , things may change.
Dr Pagavalan,
Do you mean we can do MRCS part I & II in Malaysia and go Singapore for part III?
If not, is there other way we can get a internationally recognised postgrad degree?(In surgical field)
Thank you.
Yes, you can sit for MRCS Part 1&2 in Malaysia, usually conducted in Penang by Penang Medical College/Penang GH. I heard, even Part 3 can be done in Malaysia now but it is not recognised as a specialist degree in Malaysia/UK. It is an entrance exam to surgical speciality.
In Singapore, the MRCS is conducted together with their Master’s in Surgery, thus you will get 2 degress, which is recognised as a surgical specilaist degree.
Dr Pagavalan,
Can we get a MRCS+surgical specialist degree in Singapore by doing MRCS part 1&2 in malaysia and part 3 in Singapore? if not, how do we get that? or do we have to go through university/training in singapore for few years to get “surgical specialist degree”?
thanks.
Yes you can do that. After passing MRCS, you need to undergo training in Singapore before sitting for FRCS
It has been stated very clearly several times already, the MRCS is NOT recognised as a specialist qualification, not in Malaysia, not in Singapore, and NOT in UK.
jk,
i know it’s not recognized. it’s an entrance exam. i’m interested in taking it. that’s all
What is the difference between FRCS and MRCS?
and also, how do we convert MRCP to an FRCP?
FRCS is not available anymore, it is now known as MRCS but lower ranking. This is in accordance with the change of training scheme in UK.
After 8 years of passing MRCP(UK) , you can apply for FRCP. You need to ask an FRCP holder to propose you to receive FRCP. You need to have good track record in medical education, publications and other community services.
Queen: Well, FRCS got F, and MRCS got M lorrr. What so difficult. Lu ingat currency ke nak convert – convert.
Like!
Dr
I intend to do my mrcp in uk after which i want to move to singapore for specialization.i am afraid my undergraduate degree is not recognized by singapore.would it still be possible for me to apply for a job in singapore with a mrcp and any other exam that i can take?
MRCP is recognised in Singapore, thus you should be able to get a job in Singapore, irrespective of your undergraduate degree.
Master’s is NOT recognised.
Doc,
Is it advisable to the the Australian Medical Council exam and practice in Australia?
I’m planning of taking it as soon as I graduate, then go to Australia for housemanship. Planning to come back once I’m a specialist. I am interested in the surgical field… but chances of getting a Master’s seat in Malaysia seem very very slim.
Yup, you can sit for AMC exam and if you pass you can work in Australia. It is an option. But you still need to finish your housemanship here to get your full registration before you leave. Furthermore, there is also no guarantee that you will get into the Australian training programme.
Hi Dr. Pagalavan,
Firstly, thank you for such a good explanation. I can tell you, even the officers from MOH wouldn’t be able to explain as good as this. And your advice on choosing a globally recognized program is so true that I am beginning to have many different thoughts right now.
May I what is your stand regarding the local Masters program for Anesthesiology, is it recognized anywhere else? I am actually thinking of going for it; non surgical field.
Thank you.
Nope, It is not recognised elsewhere.
Aaron, see my comment below about anaesthesia training.
Doc,
Thanks for your reply. If I do my housemanship in Australia, then come back here as a specialist? Is that alright? I heard the Malaysia allows. Malaysian docs who are trained overseas to come back as specialist.
Based on your experience, chances of me getting into Local specialist surgical program is higher or Australian program?
Thanks doc.
You are right but it will take time for you to sit for the AMC exam and then getting a place for housemanship in Australia. Thus instead of wasting time, it is better you start your housemanship first then sit for the AMC exam along the way.
The Australian post graduate training programme is a well structured programme run by their respective colleges. You can go to their website for more info. Furthermore, PRs and Citizens will be given priority.
LIKE!
Thanks for the information given. Appreciate it!
Hi doc..thanx for the advices given. I’m currently in my 4th year from local med school.
If I’m not mistaken, I read from sg website about the recognition. It says that unrecognised U in malaysia still can work in Sg. after completion of HO programme as well 3 years after becoming MO. Is that true doc?
Yes, you are right but it is done on case to case basis and usually for their polyclinics and not for postgraduate training, unless you have MRCP etc.
Dr Pagavalan,
Thanks so much for this article. I really appreciate it.
I have been considering your last bit of advise there for long.
This served as a good nudge to get determined.:)
Please keep writing informational articles like this and have fun painting!
MH
So does this mean that if i want to become a surgeon in Malaysia, the only way out is local Master programme? No other way? It’s kind of pathetic!
Unfortunately yes
Well written. Its a coincidence that I am a Paulian too and home is Rasah!
Anyway just to add on here:
Firstly I am an Advanced Trainee in Emergency Medicine in Australia. I sit for my fellowship exam in 2012.
Now firstly abt the AMC:
U can sit for the part 1 in spore (RM6K). Part two as well in spore(9K). Easy to get seat for part 1 but takes 18-24 months to get a part 2 seat. Once u get the AMC both parts then u need 8 weeks of surgery and 8 weeks of medicine and 10 weeks of ED in Aus. Only then will u get full registration.
But u can do part one then get specific registration and get a HMO job which is between an Intern and MO in Aus. Then u do rotations depending on the hospital needs and during this time U can prepare for the AMC2 while u wait for the seat. Anyway u need the experience of AUS setting to sit for it cause it is OSCE. Only after u get full registration u will get your PR. If u have British/Irish degree, canadian licence, PLAB with completed internship then u only need to work one year in aus and u will get yer full registration. As for post grad, all specialty u need to be a PR or citizen except Emergency Medicine and Medicine. And seats are very minimal. ie. ENT training 5 spots in the whole of Aus this year! But rest assure when u finish the programme u are darn good. Cause not many accredited training places even though there are many hospitals with ENT surgeons.
Now as for Emergency Medicine, if u are interested u may email me. It gives u a fellowship that is recognised in the UK, Canada, HK, Spore, middle east and a few more except the states. U don’t want to go back to msia with this fellowship. Trust me I know the Emergency Med scene. I have met with the who is who in Emergency Med Msia. And its all talk talk talk. They dont even have a resus council but think they are producing good specialists. I was in the masters prog in UM for first year. Passed the part one and realised what a crap programme it was!
So if its medicine and Emerg med then the path is easier. The rest its a long long way. Fren of mine in Queensland already a PR for 2 years cant get a training job in Surgery and is opting to do GP training.
And to become a citizen u need to have a valid long term visa for 4 years out of which one must be a PR visa.
One more thing if u do yer part 1 AMC and come here and work u have 5 years to complete yer amc 2 or specialty or u need to show that u are heading towards it. Else they wont renew yer yearly Specific registration after 5 years.
Hope this helps. I am happy to help if u need more info.
ps. If u have completed 3-4 years after degree and interested in Emergency Medicine, email me cause we always looking for registrars.
pps Having MRCP gives you no advantage. U dont get any excemptions in the medicine program.
Dear Moe,
Thank you for the info. That’s the reason why I did not mention anything about working in Australia in my articles. Australian Medical Council do not recognise any medical degrees obtained outside Australia.
It is a tedious process to work in Australia. Yes, even MRCP does not make any difference. But if you have worked as a specialist/subspecialist for many years elsewhere, the respective college may consider your application for a shorter route.
I will add your info to my blog articles soon
Dear Moe,
Doing Emergency Medicine is one of my choices that I’ve been thinking so far. I shall be grateful if you could provide me with more information.
I’m graduating soon this year, and expecting myself to sit for any of the qualification exam I’d need to sit for while doing my housemanship.
Do you mean by finishing AMC part one, I’ll be able to get specific registration and get a HMO job in Aus? Could you elaborate more on this. So by the time i finish part2, I’d get PR and full registration? Does that mean it’ll give a fellowship that is recognised in the UK?
“Emergency Medicine”.. does it includes “Tramatology/ accidents and emergencies”? because some of the dr. told me there’s a difference.
Thank you very much.
ANE
*after getting PR and full registration, and continue on doing Emergency Medicine/ Medicine, does that mean it’ll give a fellowship that is recognised in the UK upon completion? how long does it takes?
*”Traumatology/ …”
Sorry for the mistakes…
Dear Moe,
Im always interested in EM so badly and I wish to work in Australia. Please give me your email or contact number so I could talk with you directly on the line. Hope to hear from you soon, thank you!
YET
Nice to hear the real truth…. Can u elaborate further on how to proceed with fellowship in Australia. Tq
firstly, your degree need to be recognised by AMC, if not, sit for the AMC exam and pass. You need to find a job in Australia. Apply for fellowship programme with no guarantee that you will get.
Dear Moe, hi, thanks for ur splendid wealthy input which u contributed here, i m currently preparing for my AMC Part 1 exam, can u please email me ur email address pls if u dont mind (mine is czhong16@gmail.com) as i would like to obtain some advice from u about the recommended books to prepare . As u know the paper is quite expensive, i would like to pass it at the first go, hopefully wih God’s grace. I would appreciate very much if u can kindly email me ur email add pleasee.. 🙂
May I have your email, Dr. Now? 🙂
It’s great to see Paulians here. Allow me to join in too as a Paulian, hahaha..
My hometown is in Seremban Jaya.
Currently I’m pursuing my medical degree in M’sia and I know it is still a long long way but I Really Really Really wish to be an Emergency Physician!!! 🙂
And I would really love to learn from your experience and hear from you on “What Should I Do and How to Do it, To Be An Emergency Physician”. May I have your email, doc?
Honestly, SPI really do opened up my mind and brought me this far… 🙂
**Dr. Moe
I’m really sorry for the autocorrect 😦
That is an awful mistake. Sorry.
Firstly you should buy my books and read. The only path to become emergency physician is via he local Master’s program.
hello doc…i m final year med student….after housemenship planning to take neurosurgery…as i know hv 2 go through some basic surgical training….but i dont understand so much abt that procedure…can u give me some guide how to go through?
Dear Jayyy,
You have a long way to go. First of all, it is better you go throu the housemanship before deciding what you want to do. I have had many friends who wanted to do this and that but ended up being a GP or doing someother field. Only after you start to work, you will realise a lot of issues that you may not know now.
As for neurosurgery, there is Master’s in Neurosurgery conducted by USM. However, the number of places are limited. The other way is to do Master’s in Surgery first and then procede to do Neurosurgery as a subspeciality.
dr pagalavan thank you for your very thorough article…as i was lost about the whole structure, almost everyone i asked was unable to give me a clear view, dr im currently doing my housemanship in a local hosp, and im interested in dermatology , if im not wrong according to your article i have to do my mrcp (while being in the internal med department) then follow up with the diploma in dermatology then ahead with the degree….. please correct if im wrong …thank you
There is no Master’s in dermatology at the moment. You need to do MRCP then subspecialise in Dermatology. Dermatology is considered as a subspeciality training of 3 years.
Diploma in dermatology is not considered as a specialist degree.
Hi,
I am priviledged to know(well sort of I guess) someone who has an FRCP these days in malaysia. Not many really strive to get admitted as a fellow. Can I know how much you pay every year to the college as subcription for your fellowship and is there continuous medical education points that you need, to maintain this fellowship every year? Do malaysians who have passed their MRCP actually pay an annual membership fee?
Dear Moe,
You don’t need to become a member of the college after passing MRCP, it is not compulsory. After more than 8 years, you can be proposed to become a fellow.
In order for you to become a Fellow, you need to show your comittment to medical education, research and publications. You need a senior fellow to propose you to become a Fellow of a college. The College fellowship councill will then go throu’ your application, CV, publications list etc etc before deciding whether you can be accepted as a fellow.
If they accept you as a Fellow, then you need to join as a fellow of the college and pay a annual membership fee. Usually around RM 700-1000/year depending on the exchange rate. There is no need to maintain a points for continuation but if the college receives any complaints/misconduct about you, they can terminate the feloowship.
Hi,
And with this fellowship U can practise in the UK as a consultant right? Despite not having trained in the UK in your post graduate subspecialty?
Yes, as long as you have MRCP/FRCP, you should be able to work in UK *BUT with *the recent immigration laws that was changed since 2007, UK citizens and EU citizens are given priority for jobs in UK.
very good articles
keeps young doctors updated
better than any of the information we get from MOH
YANG
GYNAECOLOGIST FOR 25 YRS
Hai Doc.
Let me introduce myself, I am 56 years old, a layman from India. It is really very difficult to get an admission here for MBBS without paying capitation fees. My only son’s only desire was to become a doctor and I managed to get an admission for MBBS for him at Wuhan University , China 2006 batch and he is doing his housemanship there now. By July 2011 he shall be back.By the end of September he may appear for the screening test of the Medical council of India which is mandatory to become equal to the MBBS exams here and ofcourse to get a registration for practice as a medical practitioner.in India.Now there is a problem which everyone is facing with the Chinese education. Eventhough the medium of instruction is English, the quality is very poor.
All the patient’s report is written in Chinese which the expatriates cannot read or understand. They have to take a photocopy of the patients’s card and get it typed in Chinese, translate into English through google translator and study the records.It is really a time consuming and Hillarious task!I understand from the net that study at Wuhan University is recognised by National University of Singapore.Is it possible for my son to do his housemanship there and get a registration for medical practice. He is only 22 years old. My desire is that he work there as a junior doctor and save some money for his higher education and try to get an admission there for Orthopeadic specilsation which is his goal. Is it really possible. How is the housemanship at Singapore, Is it bearable. Do they have to work at night apart from the routine day work. Are Singaporeans considerate of expatriates? How to get an admission for housemanship at Singapore hospitals?Whom to contact? Is it possible to get an admission for PG Ortho? Or do we have to accept any subject offered by the university?I have so many questions!I think I am too much concerned about my son. I do not know whether it is alright to ask you all these questions., kindly bear with me. Will you be good enough to give me a personal reply, my email ID. tomyaathira@gmail.com. With warm regards.K.J.Thomas.
Please contact Singapore Medical Councill for further info regarding degree recognition and housemanship training. You can visit their website. Of course you have night duties during housemanship as well as medical officer. Singapore has their own training scheme for postgradute training like the BST and AST programme.
Hi,
I am quite interested in Moe’s input in this matter and also that he is currently in Australia pursuing Emergency Medicine training. Word has it that Emergency Medicine training in Australia is really good.
The thing is that I am pursuing a Basic Specialist TRaining in Medicine in Ireland at the moment and due to complete this in 2 years and hopefully with a MRCP in my hand. After this I am planning to go to Australia for subspecialization training in Medicine, ideally in Endocrinology
Is it possible for me to get more info regarding this matter from Moe or from yourself, Dr. Paga?
Please go to the FRACP college website for more info. Medical training in Australia depends on availability of post and of course, citizens and PRs are given priority. They have a very structured training system.
Dave: The MRCP is not recognised in Australia. You will be given specialist recognition only if you have your Certificate of Completion of Training (i.e. completed ALL your specialist training in the UK/Ireland). If you want to do endocrinology in Australia you have to sit the RACP exams, whether or not you have the MRCP.
Great article, I too am extremely pessimistic about the situation in Malaysia due to every Datuk and their driver getting a licence to open up a medical school.
Aaron: The Australian and New Zealand College of Anaesthetists recognises training in 5 Malaysian hospitals: HUKM, UMMC, KLGH, IJN amd Penang GH. If you get a job as an MO in one of these hospitals, you can apply to ANZCA to get on to training. Their website (www.anzca.edu.au) has details of the training supervisors for those hospitals. The FANZCA allows you to work in Aus, NZ, Singapore regardless of your basic medical degree.
Another quick comment: The MRCP exams are indeed purely an ENTRY exam into specialist training. In the UK, a further 4 years of training is required to become a specialist. I think similar standards should be applied in Malaysia, not 18 months. One could argue 3 years because we see a higher patient load, but 18 months is too short. Theoretically, one could get all the MRCP parts 2.5 years after graduating and therefore become a ‘specialist’ 4 years out of uni. Flaw in the system.
Thanks for the info. Yes, you can sit for the ANZCA exams and it is recognised in Malaysia. But If I am not mistaken, you still need to do attachment in Australia before sitting for the exams. Most of the time, some of the Master’s students in UKM/UM will sit for this exams, since they are already working in UH/UKM.
As for MRCP, the situation is different in UK and Malaysia. In UK, after passing MRCP, you are actually getting into subspecialist training. For example, after passing MRCP, you can get to do cardiology immediately after that. The 4 year training is for cardiology and not general medicine.
In Malaysia, the 18 months training is just to confirm you as a clinical specialist in general medicine. You need another 3 years for subspecialist training, which means it takes 4 and a half years upon passing MRCP before completing your speciality, example like cardiology etc, assuming you get your training post after 18 months!
This is the reason why you can become a cardiologist/gastroentrologist etc faster in UK then in Malaysia.
I am an ANZCA trainee myself, and you can do all of your training in Malaysia. You only need to come to Aus to sit the viva exams for the Part 1 and 2. And you’re right about Masters students sitting both exams, because it allows them to do fellowships in Aus/NZ (plus the Malaysian Masters is heavily based on the ANZCA curriculum). Also, the ANZCA Part 1 exempts you from sitting the Masters Part 1.
I beg to differ about the MRCP situation. In the UK, one of the options for those 4 years after MRCP is General/Internal Medicine. You can choose to do a subspecialty (e.g. cardiology or gastroenterology) without General/Internal Medicine but that means you can only act in a specialist role for those patients, and you would be unsuitable to work in a smaller hospital where subspecialists commonly see general medical patients as well. You can choose to do Internal Medicine AND a subspecialty but that will take 5-6 years in total after MRCP. There is absolutely no pathway to become a General/Internal Medical specialist without doing those 4 years. You will function as a staff grade forever but never a specialist.
The UK has revamped its postgrad training in the past 2-3 years (the debacle that is Mordernising Medical Careers), trying to implement run-through training while maintaining the old college exams. Everyone does 2 years of housemanship (Foundation Years 1 and 2), then become an SHO in ST1 and ST2, during which they try and complete their MRCP. They then do 4-5 years (ST3-7) before being awarded the Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT), which allows you to be recognised as a specialist.
By the way, thank you for thaking the time to disseminate information to the general medical public about the medical situation in Malaysia. It is a subject close to my heart and I too have written articles in Berita MMA about the matter. Where do you find the time? 🙂
Hi dr, i read with interest the articles you have put up in your website, suffice to say very enlightening and entertaining.
I have a question. I heard after MRCP in msia, u can immediately apply to go for IJN fellowship in cardiology without having go through 18mths of gazettment. Is that true, and if it is, will the training in such manner be recognised by MOH and NSR that you are indeed a cardiologist. I heard, if going through such pathway, you may end up gazetted as cardiologist only but not as internal medicine specialist. Any idea on this? Furthermore, what will be the pros and cons if you go throught such programme instead of the 18mths plus 3 yrs subspeciality training.thanx
Yes, you are right but you will be recognised only as a cardiologist and NOT internal medicine. If you do go out to private later, you are NOT suppose to practise as general physician and that’s where the problem arises. In private, it is important to get Internal Medicine gazettement. It is advisable to take the longer route for better future prospect.
Hi Dr, why is it that in private you need to do gazettment, is it because you will be seeing general medical case as well? What if you decide to see cardio cases only or maybe stick to a cardiac centre like IJN only? In the era of subspeciality care, does it matter if you are recognised as cardiologist and not internal medicine specialist?
If you stay in IJN forever, then it is OK. But if you decide to go to private hospital then you need to manage general cases as well as you can’t survive with cardiology alone. There may 2-4 cardiologist in the very same hospital!!
I see your point. Is it possible to do cardiology fellowship at IJN right after MRCP. Then, once become a cardiologist, only go for gazettment for internal medicine. Therefore, in the end, still being a cardiologist and internal medicine specialist as well. It may sound weird to work backward, but is it possible and feasible?
Unlikely possible because to do that you need to rejoin Ministry of Health as IJN is NOT considered a government body!
Then you need to do general medical work for 18 months! What will happen to your cardiology training then? You will forget all your skills by the time you finish your 18months training!
Where do I find the time? Ha Ha. If you look at the time of entry of my blog, you will find it is always late at night! Most of my MMA articles are written within an hour. I just write whatever that comes to my mind.
Most countries have restructured their postgraduate training but we are far behind most of these countries. As the medical field develops, we need to restructure our training system but unfortunately our MOH is more busy with politics and 1Malaysia clinics!! going backwards probably.
Academy of medicine proposed a structured postgraduate training system few years ago but unfortunately it is probably somewhere in one of the Ministry’s file, collecting dust!
MOH do have Advanced Internal Medicine subspeciality training but no takers. There was a plan to make this compulsory in order to call yourself an Internal Medicine specialist but due to lack of manpower and interest, the plan was abandoned. Thus as long as you have completed 18 months postMRCP training, you can be considered a General Physician.
Thank you for this informative article.
Nav, I’m a final year med student from the Australasian and i’m very interested in the ANZCA training scheme, at the same time i’m also quite into the physician training scheme – but only for cardio and gastro because of the nature of the specialty itself.
I have got a couple of weeks of cardio/gastro exposure thru out my med school, and also 2 weeks of anaes – and another week of anaes is coming soon.
K my question may sound ridiculous but, i am interested in both, medicine (only cardio and gastro) and also the ANZCA. Entering the basic physician training scheme is easy but to obtain a cardio reg post in a big hospital is pretty hard, especially there’re another millions of ppl that are queuing up for cardiology registrar post (so as gastroenterology reg post).
On the other hand, if i get into the ANZCA training scheme then I have nothing to worry about any subspecialty training – finish the 6 years assuming i pass all exams on time, then i’m done.
And also, IF i want to do anaes, do u recommend me to go to a smaller hosp in australasia or a bigger one (taking into account the quality of training, and also the competition of getting into the training scheme in the fastest time possible). For instance, a hospital with a small ICU unit with no trauma cases or a ultra big hospital with super trauma cases and cardiac transplant.
And the same applies to physician training – a biggggggg hospital with many cath labs, with cardiothoracic surgical input, and 24 hours STEMI call available, or a hospital with only 1 cath lab, 12 hours STEMI call, with no cardiothoracic surgical input in the same hospital.
Last but not least, how about the earning opportunity in private for anaesthetists, cardiologists, and gastroenterologist as an Asian? I seriously had no opportunity to talk to any anaesthetists for that matter.
Q
You are right that getting into basic physician training is easy but securing training position in cardio or gastro is a lot more difficult. They’re both very popular due to their interventional nature – people assume there’s money to be made and based on your last question I take it you’re no different.
Big vs Small hospitals:
I am a major advocate of working in smaller hospitals early on in your training, regardless of the specialty you do. You have more autonomy, more responsibility, more patient contact time, etc. Anaesthesia is well suited for early training in a smaller hospital – in fact, probably easier to get a job in an anaesthetic dept in a smaller hospital (and hence into training). As for physician training, there is competition to get on to the popular subspecialties so having done some work in a big hospital with those specialists is useful, but probably only 1-2 years before selection. Working in a big hospital as an intern or PGY2 = paperwork, paperwork, paperwork. You can dream about doing procedures – there will be a junior reg, senior reg and fellow all ahead of you in the cue (sometimes even the medical student, because you’ll be doing paperwork).
You need not be too worried about private practice while you’re a medical student. If you are, maybe you shouldn’t have chosen medicine. Since you intend on staying in Australia, you will earn good money in the public sector anyway. I’m sure you’re aware that Australia has doubled its number of med schools in the last 10 years. The peak number of graduates will hit the workforce in 2013 but the effects are already there – NSW could not give all interns jobs for 2011. Food for thought.
Good one! I just mentioned in my articles that you should not do medicine for money! It is a lot of hard work and sacrifice. I hope all budding doctors are aware of it.
Hello. I am an IMG accepted to UM anaesthesia. Also in USM. Due to personal circumstances I will most probably choose USM. But the ANZCA training is UM is making me doubt. Kindly advise n share ur view regarding this
If i am not mistaken, ANZCA training outside Australia has been withdrawn
Must be late at night. Misspelt queue.
Nav and Dr Pagalavan:
Thank you for your advice.
Nope I did not choose medicine because of money, but it wouldnt hurt to know more about private practice in a foreign country which i have no exposure to, no?
And regarding private practices, I am interested in dynamics between European and Asians, in which whether they tend to choose doctors of their own origin in private practice or not, it is something i am not exposed to since I’m only in public teaching hospitals and certainly it’s not something I could discuss openly with anyone in the hospital.
And yea like most ppl i like the interventional nature of cardio gastro, and they’re exciting.
The Caucasian patients don’t care how you look like as long as you can speak English properly. If you have an Ah Beng accent, then they won’t be able to understand you and think you don’t know what you’re doing.
DOCTOR~!!!!
i’m going to studying medicine in russia next year~!!
After i graduate,i want to continue my postgraduate which is recognised internationally~!!probably MRCP…
Good luck to you but remember, not all russian degrees are recognised elsewhere. Please read today’s Star
yes dryou are right, it seems whatever you have been trying to reach out to all in your mmc articles are coming true..
epple you sound like someone whose going to do medicine because your interested in it..honestly try finding somewhere else to do your medicine..please don take me wrongly as im not condemning any russian medical university but at the current situation the medical education in malaysia is a bit unstable due to very high influx of medical student. where all foreign medical schools will definitely be evaluated further , the russian medical school to me seems to be in not a very good situation…
a caring houseman =)
hello, can you describe more on the pathway to become O&G-list by taking mrcog?
( pls email me if you don mind)
After Housemanship, you can sit for Part 1, some do sit even during housemanship but you need to prepare yourself.
You need atleast 4 years attachment in O&G department before you can sit for Part 2, which is the clinical component which consist of written and clinical. After passing Part 2, you need 18 months gazettement process in MOH.
apple,thx for your advise but…i have no other options liao… financially restrained,many ppl say russian graduates are incompetent compared to local graduate but i really no choice liao…. i keep on thinking that if i study hard and smart along with passion and determination…i think i can be competent enough to treat patients….
I know that many choose Russian universities due to cost concerns but always remember one thing, the quality of universities do make a difference on the product!
Many of the Russian universities accept foreign student just for money.
Most of these universities have 2 wings: the local wing and the international wing. You will be enrolled in the international wing where the lecturer’s would not even bother to turn up. You will be left alone and finally they will pass you anyway to get the money. Trust me, I have seen enough russian graduates, some are not even fit to be called a doctor! They don’t even know basic medicine.
I don’t blame these students. Even if they are interested in Medicine like yourself, the college do make a difference. These information above was given to me by a graduate from there!
MMC may derecognise some of these colleges soon. So, becareful when you do medicine in Russia.
thx for providing me with this info….someone had told me about this before,apparently a doctor too…,but that only happens in MMA russia..dont know true or not but i got this info from students studying in russia..
i plan to go Nizhny Novgorod…
Anyway..doctor,have you ever seen a doctor graduated from russia who is competent?
Whichever Russian university you are talking about is usually the same. As for your last question, the answer is “NO”, unfortunately. Furthermore, I have also not seen any Russian graduates being successfull in postgraduate education over the last 7-8 years. Remember, even Arts stream students with poor SPM results can go and get a medical degree from Russia. Just look at the advert in newspaper: ” *guaranteed seat, only RM 100K , minimal requirement etc etc*”
In medical field, it is the clinical posting which is very important. You can sit in your room and memorize the entire book BUT you will never be able to practise medicine! It is the clinical teaching which is important. Thus, if you don’t get tutors coming and teaching and you can’t communicate with the patients, then it is of no value.
epple : dr pagalavan is right , a university makes a lot of difference in bringing out the quality of a student, i personally am facing it now, i came from a university that produced poor quality student , yet it is producing soo many students every year . the prob is we international students were not given as much as attention as the local student.. only a handfull of lecturers were dedicated to teach all student equally.The lect did not emphasize on important basic medical knowledge that we should know, the exams were not tough ,as years go by you tend to slack of knowing tht somehow you will pass through it. Then again i salute your determination to work hard and become a good doctor, i have seen a number or my own batchmates who worked soo hard on brushing up their theory that today , they are somehow able to cope up with the work thanks to good foundation, though clinically we are lacking ,but mind you this would mean a loot of hard but it is very possible …may this be a good motivation for you.. good luck
please read today’s Star page 14 regarding foreign medical universities including Russian universities which may be derecognised.
I strongly agree with dr about the Russian medical degree, Bcz I m of student here.
I feel the same thg as what the dr say.
Some of professor only teach less than 50% compare with russian student.
We really learn super little thing.
Many of students here not really study. Mayb less than 30% of student who really know what they want. Other students just come for a paper of degree without knowledge.
I m 4th year student at Russia. We really lack of chances to have clinical practice.
I m very worry about my future. May I know any recommendation for me?
Unfortunately I got nothing to advise you. A 5 year medical education is very important. If not, you will be lost when you start your housemanship. It is very tough for you to be able to study basic medicine once you have started your housemanship.
The command of English of some of our future medical professionals scares me.
Agreed, didn’t want to comment about it!
Hi dr. im going to do medicine in mmmc next year march intake. do you think its a good choice ? are the graduates from there competent enough to practise ? and what about the recognition ? will i be able to gain admission for post grad easily ? Thank you
mmmc? give me the full name
If you are talking about Melaka Manipal, well the quality is deteriorating as well. I had a freash graduate from MMMC who I just met during deepavali this year. She only said 1 thing ” It is a Burmese University”, because most of lecturers ther are burmese!. Overall, none of the private medical colleges in Malaysia has good quality. This is simply because there are too many medical schools in Malaysia and too few lecturers. Furthermore, since they are all competing to get as many students as possible, the standards of students they are enrolling is also poor and thus brings down the standard of the college.
Dear Pag,
I think this is a very unfair statement with regards to private medical unis. All unis be it public or private take in good students and crappy ones. It is a medical student who ultimately decides if he wants to be a good doctor or not by optimizing/maximizing his opportunities in any medical school. the lecturers help yes but to a certain extent.
I agree they compete to get students. Just scoring excellent results in pre med courses does not guarantee u becoming a good doctor. The best surgeons today are the ones who play video games the best! And going by what u say all unis in malaysia would be crap since the private ones admit substandard and the public dont go by meritocracy but kulitfikasi.
Wah, long time never heard from you and you are commenting on something that was mentioned almost 1 year ago! Whatever you say, you still need certain basic minimum intelligency level to become a doctor. That is what we are talking about. We are not talking about only high acheivers can become doctors. Can a fellow who got 9Fs in SPM and working as a lorry driver become a doctor? If so, would you send your family members to be treated by him? Of course being a good student not necessarily will become a good doctor because untimately it depends whether the person actually had an interest to do medicine in the first place. That’s one of the reason why I created this blog so that the prospective students will know the reality before they decide. Same cannot be said for a poor student who can’t even get a D for science subjects?
You must also understand that the standard of SPM results currently are not comparable to 1980s and early 1990s. A “B” then is almost as good as an “A” but a “B” now is very much lower. Thus you may have seen some surgeons and physicians who did not get straight As becoming excellent doctors but atleast they would have been the second best. Remember, those days, a state will only have 2-10 students scoring straight As but now you have 1000 students scoring straight As with 300 scoring A+. You get my point? That’s the reason you need a standardised preU qualifications to maintain the standard of medical doctors like in most other countries. Unfortunately that is missing in Malaysia.
As for private medical schools, they are crap! Other than a few, most medical schools in Malaysia are not fit to be called a medical college. Please visit one of them and you will realise what I am talking about. Some of them hardly got more than 10 fulltime lecturers. On paper everything will look great by including part time lecturers and gov doctors. I know one private medical college which guarantees a place with SPM results(even a C/D will do) and what you need to do is their own dubious foundation course as an eyewash! That’s the reason the MMC came up with the minimum criteri guideline but the colleges are not bothered as money matters.
Moe,
“All unis be it public or private take in good students and crappy ones.”
If you define a good student by what they scored in the SPM and pre-u, then there are some unis which continue to maintain high standards. However, the vast majority of private unis and unis in russia/indonesia/ukraine have much lower requirements
“It is a medical student who ultimately decides if he wants to be a good doctor or not by optimizing/maximizing his opportunities in any medical school. the lecturers help yes but to a certain extent.”
This is true for good students. Not all good students can become good doctors, that’s true. Depends very much on their attitude. However, poor students will be likely to lack the intellectual capacity to become good doctors. There are obviously some exceptions (e.g. ‘poor’ because did not want to study but then excelled later in career) but if you cannot learn what you need to know, how can you expect to treat patients?
“The best surgeons today are the ones who play video games the best!”
A sweeping statement with no real basis. People who play video games have good hand-eye coordination. Not everyone with good hand-eye coordination will be good surgeons.
“And going by what u say all unis in malaysia would be crap since the private ones admit substandard and the public dont go by meritocracy but kulitfikasi.”
The vast majority of them are indeed crap. Some public ones and even less private ones have maintained a core of good lecturers and high quality of students (of whatever race) – but the majority really could not compare to the standards which we should be aiming to. Are they better than unis in Russia/Ukraine/Indonesia/Burma etc? Probably yes. But is that what we want to compare ourselves to?
Dear Moe,
As a time expired Advanced Trainee in Emergency Medicine in Oz, I am surprised to hear you make such generalisations. I will agree that the individual’s potential and dedication are far more important in defining whether they eventually become good doctors rather than which medical school he/she went to. But without good basic foundations, it’s sometimes too big a gap to make up. Patients should not have to pay the price for their doctor’s inadequate training.
There may be good students with average pre-entrance results who shine at medical school (as there are those with excellent pre-u results who nosedive in university). But these are the exception who prove the rule.
The fact is that good students typically do well in medical school and go on to become knowledgable doctors. Hardwork can make up for less talent, but the average candidate who works hard is still unlikely to outscore the talented candidate who works equally hard. Everyone in my class at medical school was in the top 5% of their class at high school. Didn’t matter. When the class results were plotted on a graph, still a normal distribution curve.
Funny how people seem to focus on exceptions. Everyone has a grandfather who smoked 30 cigs a day and still lived into their 90’s with no health problems. Exception that proves the rule.
As far as your flippant comment about how Playstation champs make the best surgeons goes, I hope it amounts to no more than a flippant remark. It takes many attributes to make a good surgeon. Hand eye coordination is important, but it is only one part of the entire package
Surgical trainees always focus (particularly in their early years) on the technical aspect of their training. Their concern is always that they might not be able to execute an operation. What they don’t realise is that technical execution is one of the more reliably attainable skills given enough practice and reasonable hand-eye coordination. But as they get more experienced, they realise that there are many more aspects that are equally important such as patient assessment, choice of the right operation, pre- and post- operative management. These require knowledge, experience and good sense.
Some never quite get it. The most extreme example being the stereotypical Orthopaedic surgeon who sees it as a success being able to undertake a hip replacement. The 85 year old lady is stuck in bed for 3 weeks with post-op pneumonia, and all he can say on the ward round is “get medics to review”. Is that a successful outcome? (Sorry, I can’t ever give up the chance to bash the bone goons!) 😉
For budding surgeons, consider these two old sayings:
1) “choose well, cut well, get well”
2) “A good surgeon knows how to operate. The better surgeon knows when to operate. The best surgeon knows when not to operate.”
It’s more than just having a pair of good hands.
BTW, are congratulations in order with respect to your final fellowship?
Dr Pagal
Thanks for the very enlightening article.
I think MMMC refers to Melaka Manipal Medical College.
I am considering Monash University for my medical studies and noticed that you were a lecturer there previously. Would you recommend Monash or the new-comer Newscastle which is also based in JB?
What about IMU / PMC which are more well established for their longer presence in Malaysia?
Your advise is much appreciated.
Ellen
Dear Ellen,
Yes I was a senior lecturer in Monash JB for 4 years. Why I left? you will know the reason if you do visit their “so called” campus in JB! Ooops, ” what campus?”
Again, the main problem in Malaysia is the fact that there are NOT enough lecturers in any of the medical schools in Malaysia. Since Monash started in JB, the number of academic staff( 12 full timers) has not increased eventhough the number of students have doubled and even triple by next year. The only good thing about Monash is that the entry qualification is controlled and similar to Monash Australia. The curicullum is also exactly the same eventhough I feel it is not entirely suitable for Malaysian Healthcare. Australian Medical Council recognition is another plus point for Monash Malaysia, means you can work in Australia as Houseofficer.
I can’t comment much about Newcastle as they have not started yet. They are just in the process of recruiting academics and I am sure they are going to have a tough time looking for.
Of course, IMU and PMC are more established but unfortunately IMU’s 5 year degree is not recognised elsewhere, unless you take their twinning programme.
It is the same problem everywhere in Malaysia, no human resource to keep up a good quality product!
LOL
I beg to differ on the quality of Monash Sunway medical students. If the entry requirements of Monash Australia, or for that matter any Go8 medical schools, were applied, you wouldn’t be seeing most of the Sunway students sitting where they are today. Yes, I agree the basic requirements (ATAR/A-levels, ISAT and interview) are similar to the ones in Australia, but are most people actually aware of the scores required for each category?. I for one know of a few students receiving MBBS offers from Monash Sunway despite having ATAR in the 80s and ISAT percentile of less than 10 (bottom 10% of candidates). Comparatively, in UWA for example, you need an ISAT of at least 80 to even be eligible for application, not to mention the mean ATAR being 99(minimum of 96 required for application). And for those budding medical students out there, if you wish to know where all the highest ISAT scores(>90) are, look no further than our neighbours down south. If the same stringent rules were applied in Sunway, the faculty wouldn’t even last one semester. Why? Because students with the proper qualifications are better off studying in Australia.
Oh and btw
Congrats Dr. Paga on your blog hits 🙂
Keep up the good work in enlightening our many innocent, wide-eyed doctor wannabes !!!
MMMC = Melaka Manipal Medical College
Recognised in Malaysia, no where else that matters. People I know seem competent enough, but they graduated >6 years ago. Haven’t heard of anyone missing out on the Masters programme based on the fact they went to MMMC. However, it is going to be a lot more harder to get onto the Masters programme due to the huge influx of graduates.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I am one of the government sponsored student in Australasia, and will be graduating next year.
The recent development in the Malaysian medical education seems bleak and with the haphazard postgraduate education, it seems to many of us that returning to Malaysia would be very disadvantageous to our career development and a waste to our training, after working hard to pursue a national scholarship, gaining entry to Western medical schools and undergoing rigorous training.
However, for some of us, returning to Malaysia is still a strong option as our families are based here, being the place of our upbringing, getting married and settling down, and not to mention the legal implications of our contract with the civil service.
As a consolation, what would you comment on the positive aspects working and training in the Malaysian public healthcare system?
How do you foresee working as a trainee and specialist in the public health system? Can local specialists attain the same level of calibre to further develop their disciplines through involvement in their professional bodies, despite being trained in less-than-ideal schemes?
And do you think that there will be something in store for us, who are committed to seeing the public health system work for both the medical fraternity and the public?
What would be the prospect of medical leadership and research, in light of the increased presence of Western medical schools in Malaysia (e.g. John Hopkins, RCSI, Monash etc.)?
Do you think that the Academy of Medicine, MMC and MMA, and the leadership in prestigious public medical schools and research centres, be able to bring the necessary change to our health system and medical education scene?
First of all, I tell this to everyone who are sponsored by government:
Come back and serve the people of Malaysia! You are paid by our taxes and thus you should come home!
Previously, few years ago, I always advise graduates from overseas to come back and do housemanship in Malaysia. This is simply because you will get a lot of ” Hands On” training in Malaysia for procedures etc. Imagine you will be able to do chest tubes/CVP lines/Bone Marrow aspirations etc before you finish your housemanship. This type of training you will not get in Australia because it is usually done by Registras and above. Imagine you need to do VE, do episiotomy and deliver babies. Can you do that in Australia?
However, the current situation has changed in Malaysia. Too many medical schools and too many graduates. The repost in Star last week is the truth. Too many housemen in each ward. Only those who are eager to learn are doing all these procedures.
Whatever said and done, working in public hospitals in Malaysia gives you a lot of exprience and knowledge. However, you must be a hard working person with a zeal to learn. BTW, don’t think that if you are trained overseas, you will become a better specialist etc. The health system and diseases are different in each country. I know many specialist who came back from overseas who don’t even know how to treat common diseases in malaysia like Dengue/Malaria etc. I have also seen overseas trained specialist who can’t do chest tube insertion, CVP line etc.
Forget about MMC, Academy of medicine and MMA. The government of Malaysia never bothers to listen to them. MMC in Malaysia is not even an independent body, it is under the MInistry of Health! The current situation of too many medical schools is simply because of that. The Ministry of Higher Education gives the license and MMC just watches!! What can they do? Nothing!!! They are just forced to accreditate the college after that!
All this foreign medical schools and research centres are just slogans that will never become a reality. They are all here for profit making and not for medical research. I have worked with Monash Malaysia before and trust me, it is just a money making business. They don’t even provide enough fund for research and basic medical science research is lacking in Malaysia due to poor funding.
No doubt that postgraduate training in Malaysia is going to be tough in the future. But don’t think it is going to be any easier in Australia as well. I was made to understand that places for housemanship in Australia in the next 1-2 years is going to be very limited. Their postgraduate training is also limited depending on the field. The only good thing about their training is that it is internationally recognised!
Can senior doctors do something about this? there are no benefits in having a medical council with no voice! it really irks me to hear this. quality is hitting rock bottom and there seems to be no initiative to stop the problem. a person with no medical background should not be allowed to determine the future of doctors. what is the point of de-recognizing foreign universities when most undergrad universities in malaysia are not of quality. the issue in regards to de-recognizing cropped up years ago, if a stern decision was made at that point, the production of low quality grads from those universities would have ceased. leave alone those who were already there at that point, but those who were enrolling the following year should have been stopped. im surprised that even today so many students are asking about these foreign degrees!!!! do medicine to become a GOOD DOCTOR. Patients are not toys, they are living beings. becoming a good doctor is not about self study, it is not book work. if you don’t get into a good university, only 10% or less will graduate to become good doctors. should the malaysian public be test objects for the rest; the other 90%! if you really have the characteristics of a doctor, this will worry you. you cannot be obsessed with medicine, state that it is a passion, but at the same time have no regards for patients health!!
to those who are doctors in good universities and jpa scholars (please remember that malaysia’s education system is not great and therefore the string of As may not mean much), please seize the opportunity and brush up on clinical knowledge.
dear doctor, i am extremely sorry for venting my frustrations on your blog. God bless you for your efforts. I hope this blog will gain recognition from the necessary people who have the power to make changes to our health system
Hey Doctor.. what about studying medicine in Indonesia?
will it be better than studying in russia?
cost are about the same for both university
Indonesia and russia are around the same. Do Indonesian degrees recognised internationally? There are only 2 good indonesian University: Gajamada and University Indonesia, where the International students are thought in english but most of the communications are still in Indonesian language
arrrrgggghhhh~~~!i dont know what to do liao….i hope everything goes well ~!!!
Besides taking medical degree, what university degree in the science field is worthy to take to ensure big bucks and less frustration in Malaysia. Biotech in Malaysia is comparatively low standard so it’s not in my mind. If I wanna study in the business field, what degree should I take ?
This is a very difficult question to answer but you need to look into the future. When I completed my SPM, way back in 1980s, alot of my friends went into IT training. I was wondering what the hell is that all about. Remember, those days, we don’t even know what is an email!Now, most of my friends who did IT are doing so well and has become company directors and earning much more than me! They are flying all over the world for vacations/business. Those who did the tradiotional “guaranteed life” courses like Law, Medicine and Engineering are now struggling. Lawyers became saturated in 1990s, Medicine soon by 2015 and engineering as well!
The moral of the story is, something that may not be important/prominent now will become important in few years time. So, biotechnology may become an important field in the near future. If you can do an internationally recognised biotechnology degree, you can get a job overseas and earn big money, at the same time investing in Malaysia!Please do not do biotechnology from any of the local public/private universities, it is total crap.
Other then that, the money is now in technical field. Trust me, the richest people now are interior designers/architect/contruction and renovation companies etc
Doctor,i think i will choose Indonesia la…University Gadja Mada,ppl say better than russia because they got entrance exam and the students are expose to diseases similar with malaysia’s diseases
besides that,the syllabus is not like russia ,ppl say its brittish system..
To Epple:
Is studying medicine the only option that you had in your mind? As mentioned by the Dr. Pagalavan, by 2015, there will be surplus of doctors and just said, you decided to study medicine in either russia or indonesia, you will graduate by year 2017 or 2018. By then, things might have changed. The health system in malaysia might undergo big changes. Who knows if the opposition wins the general election next year and they restructure the entire health system.
Here is my piece of advice. First of all, think of the future that you will have when you graduate as a doctor in 2017/2018.
1. Are there any place for new HOs judging from the fact that by 2015, malaysia will have enough Drs. Dont forget also that JPA and MARA are sending students to do medic in eastern europe such as Czech Republic, Poland and Romania which is going to produce new doctors starting 2014
2. Are you willing to work long hours everyday and worst of all during the weekend?
3. Are you able to cope with the stress and scolding from the MOs and specialists?
Let me share with you my journey as a doctor to you. Like you, I was as aspiring, passion and determination as you before entering med school. Once in med school, I studied as hard as possible to pass. Then start the working life which is tiring and stressful. Honestly speaking, I repented study medicine. My life now has been tiring and stressful.
I personally believed that you do have an option. Just that you need to open your mind and widen your horizon.
If you still decide to be a Doctor, I have no objection and salute you for your courage and passion.
If you decide to study in Russian or Indonesia, you really have to put extra efforts and pure determination
Eg: If your coursemate ask you to play DOTA everyday, you should say no. Hehe. Jk. (I am assuming you are a guy)
All the best.
to Hes:
thx alot for your advises…
Yes,i’m very well aware of doctors future.Infact if you read
The Star newspaper few days ago,it stated that new budding medical school will be feezed.and yes too i’m aware of doctors life…but i only have 1 life and i really want to used it wisely.
to be honest, for me..everything is interesting business,engineer,actuarial,IT field..but the question is “What I Want”.At start, i really dont know whether what i want to be because EVERY OPTIONS seems attractive~!!
i dont know how come some ppl can make up their mind so simple regarding what course they gonna choose..
One day i google up my problem,i found an article..
it said “we dont know what we want but we know what we dont want”..e.g poor.
then i reallise something,no matter what i choose i must keep thinking of it only and not others,because they are distractors.i hope by using this “theory” i wont regret in the future for choosing doctor..i choose doctor because i love the knowledge of a doctor and what i can do with it,no more reasons just that, even though i’m not completely sure until i graduate as one -.- lol~
PS: i might not have to go INDO OR RUSSIA~!! because i got an offer letter from ACMS for their MD-UKM course~!!
There are POOR doctors as well! More so in a few years time when we are going to see a lot of jobless doctors. MD-UKM offered by ACMS is NOt recognised elsewhere. Singapore do not recognise MD UKM done anywhere other than the main UKM campus. ACMS is one of the worst private medical college in Malaysia.
To Epple:
The safest course which is nearest to medical field now is Dentistry so I suggest you aim for it. Malaysia still lack of dentist and from what I heard from my friend who is working as dentist, each year Malaysia only produce 200+ dentists (both local uni and foreign uni combine). Also, the peripheral hospital I am working now only have one dental specialist. As you can see job opportunity is brighter if you become dentist. Anyway you still have the final decision.
To Dr Pagalavan,
Few months back, our government just agreed to build John Hopkins Medical school and research center in Serdang. Will this be affected?
I don’t think John Hopkin will be affected as it was decided much earlier. However, I doubt the so called research centre will materialise!
John Hopkins is here to make money, just like the other private colleges. Why should they have some sort of altruistic affinity towards Malaysia?
With regards to dentistry and money, I totally agree ….. but do you really want to look into someones mouth for the rest of your life? Point a sharp blade to my wrist ……..
well dentistry…just never came across my mind lol..
i guess its a hard decision to decide between head and whole parts of body…
anyway do dentists shares the same knowledge of doctors?i read a forum before that a dentist study more about the head part …
anyway,does dentistry really just all about TEETH ?lol really curious
Hi Dr,
Thanks for your article. It has been really helpful. I’m currently a final year medical student in USM and will be graduating in a few months time if nothing goes wrong..
I am interested mainly in the paediatrics or internal medicine and not that interested in the surgical field.. My wish is to become a paediatrician/physician and practice in msia/spore in the future.
I have a few questions to ask you as I am quite unsure of what the future holds for me..
1. Which training hospital do you think is good for my housemanship as I am more interested in the paediatrics/medical field? Big hospital with a lot of specialist or small hospital? Any particular hospital with a well known paediatrics or medical department?
2. We were also told that there is a big possibility for us to be sent to East Msia for our housemanship. Any opinions regarding the training hospital in East Msia?
3. Based on your article, I deduce that the safest/fastest way to gain a specialisation in Paediatrics is via MRCPCH. I see that you didn’t mention much about Paediatrics. Can you tell me a bit more about it?
4. My university also offers Masters program for Paediatrics. Any comment on this path?
5. Is there any difference in terms of prospect in Malaysia for those holding MRCPCH vs Masters in Paediatrics? Would either one of the holders be at disadvantage againsts the other?
I’m looking forward to your reply.
Thank you
James
With the current situation of overload of housemen. I think you will not be given a choice to choose where you will need to do your housemanship. Most likely, the MOH will send you to whereever they feel there is a vacancy. You may end up in Bintulu since our great Health Minister said that Bintulu will be used to train housemen soon!
Most General Hospitals have good paediatric units, thus it does not matter where you are going to be trained. You must also understand that you will be transferred to districts/rural area after completing your 2 years housemanship. So you got a long way to go before becoming a paediatrician. During your housemanship or district postings, you can sit for your Part 1 of MRCPCH. Then you can request for transfer to a bigger hospital for your paeds training. You need to do atleast 1 year of district/rural postings, according to MOH guidelines unless you have strong cables!
Subsequently when you think you are ready to sit for Part 2/3, you can procede. After passing your last 2 parts, you need to do gazettement process for 18 months before being gazetted as a Paediatrician.
At this point of time, there is no difference in prospect between MRCPCH and Master’s in Malaysia but that MRCPCH is recognised internationally as well as in Singapore where as Master’s is not.
to Hes:
well dentistry…just never came across my mind lol..
i guess its a hard decision to decide between head and whole parts of body…
anyway do dentists shares the same knowledge of doctors?i read a forum before that a dentist study more about the head part …
anyway,does dentistry really just all about TEETH ?lol really curious
To Epple,
I guess Dentistry mostly deal with teeth. But you still have to deal with infectious diseases of mouth, perform orofacial or maxillary surgery and etc.
Why dentistry?
1. Isnt it easier to focus on just one part of the body than the entire body. Doesnt this make your life easier? 🙂
2. Better job prospect. Malaysia still need dentists compare to doctors or pharmacists.
3. Less workload but with equal pay. Earn as much as HOs or MOs if you work in government hospital.
Last but not least, why doctors when there are so many uncertainty about their futures appeared in the media. Even Dr Pagavalan also highlighted the issues of HOs in m’sia. Doesnt this bother you in your decision making?
Have you ever heard anything bad about Dentistry? I bet NO.
Trust me you will never regret if you do dentistry now. But if you still want to be a doctor, you will have yourself to blame if big changes are made in Malaysia health care system in near future. Anyway in the end it is still your decision. Think wisely. The reason this blog highlighted this issue should be clear enough for you to make up your mind.
To Hes:
Thx mate,i’ll consider your advise seriously 🙂
you are a very nice guy lol…..
Dr,
First of all, thanks for writing this article. It find it very useful and it give me an idea of what my future going to be. Currently, I’m in the final year in UPM. At first, I was hoping to get a place in the masters programme in either UM/UKM/USM after my housemanship. But after reading your post, I seriously think that my chance of getting a place will be extremely slim. So, my best chance would be MRCP. I just wonder what is the minimum time to clear all the 3 parts?
I would like to at least pass my Part 1 during my housemanship. But with the current situation, I believe I will be sent to east Malaysia anytime. So, will my preparation for MRCP be affected if I were posted to some rural areas in Sabah/Swk for 2-3 years? Can I apply to continue training in larger hospital with specialist?
Hope to hear from you. Thanks
Dear Jason,
Usually it is difficult to sit for MRCP during housemanship due to lack of time to study and prepare. But looking at the current situation of housemanship glut, it may be possible. The shortest time to complete all 3 parts of MRCP will be about 4 years. You can sit for Part 1 and 2 while you are in district hospitals etc. BUT you need to have good clinical skills before sitting for Part 3. For this, you need to work in a big hospital. Thus, it is advisable to request a transfer to a bigger hospital once you have cleared your Part 1. It is up to the state health department to entertain your request but interstate transfer will be more difficult.
Dr,
If i were to quit my job during housemanship, what are the options i have ? Can i pursue Master’s degree e.g. Msc Human Anatomy / Msc Medical Physiology etc and become a lecturer even without finishing my housemanship ?
I really hope you can tell me what are the options available after quitting housemanship. Thank you in advance.
If you quit housemanship, you cannot practise as a doctor anymore as you will not get your full registration. This means, you need to find another job. As for Master’s in preclinical science, it depends. If you are talking about local universities, then you will not get the post. For you to apply for a post in local universities, most of the time you need to be a government servant/recommendation from head of department/completed atleast 4 years of service etc etc. As for private/oversea universities, the possibilities are there. Of couse you can work as a lecturer after receiving you Master’s degree but not as a doctor.
Yes, i forget to state that. i dont intend to work as a doctor anymore.
Thanks for your reply. I’m ready to serve the people no matter it’s in East or West Malaysia. My only concern is just my postgraduate option. Since Masters places are so limited and there are no transparency, I wouldn’t risk my chance waiting for it.
However I have heard from my friend in UKM that we can apply to become a trainee lecturer in either UM/UKM/USM upon completion of the 2 years housemanship. Is it the same as MMed after completing the training as lecturer? Any comment on this route?
Thanks
Again, this” trainee lecturer” posts are also limited. Furthermore, if I am not mistaken, trainee lecturer post (also known as SLAB programme) in UM is only for bumiputera. If you want to choose this programme, you need to quit from Ministry of Health and join the universities. You will be guaranteed a place for the Master’s programme and you can get into the Master’s programme immediately after housemanship. However, you will be bonded with the university to remain as a lecturer for , if I am not mistaken, use to be 7 years.
Unless you have strong cables in the universities, it will be difficult to get into this programme. Furthermore, you need to put up with all the “politics” in the universities. I won’t recommend this pathway.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am your fan and your writings are indeed eye opener for new doctors and doctors-to-be.
I would like to have your explaination more regarding “politics” in universities as trainee lecturer.I am applying as trainee lecturer for my plan B if my plan A not successful i.e Now I am waiting for Master programme application result.And as far as I know,becoming a trainee lecturer,your placement in master prog is guaranteed. What are other problems may I have if I join trainee lecturer?
Many people choose Lecturer Training Programme to be able to get a guaranteed place in Master’s. If I am not mistaken, you will be bonded to the university for 7 years. Universities have many hierrachy. From students to lectureres, senior lecturers, A/Prof and Prof. How you survive in the universities depends on how you get along with all these people. In order for you to get research grant, to do research etc etc, you need to get approval from many people. This is where politics begin. The person on top of you will insist on putting his name in your publication despite not doing anything and your frustration will grow from here onwards!!
To become a senior lecturer, AP and Prof, you need to publish papers and be in good terms with your boses and university administrators. Different university will have different standards!
As a new lecturer, you can be thrown to any department after you graduate depending where the shortage is. I had a friend who was thrown to cardiology unit in a local university just because everyone else has left. He was interested in Gastro and subsequently he left to Singapore. If I am not mistaken, he paid some money to the university for breaking the bond.
A family member of mine was complaining to me a few weeks ago abt her supervisor insisting to put their name on the paper, despite having zero contribution. Apparently this is quite common in the Masters programme. By the way, if u read the authors’ guidelines in international journals, this is also very unethical. Even data-collectors (commonly medical students or housemen) shld not be co-authors unless they contribute to the manuscript intellectually.
Thank you Dr Pagalavan and Nav for sincere and prompt reply,I will take this as a serious consideration to determine my path soon.It s such a headache whenever I think about this,am I on the right track OR I will be regretted in my future life and blame on myself later.I am more towards surgical based which Master the only path to choose.In this such a very competitive field,I need to have several plans and not to stick on one sole plan,there`s no such guarantee and I will be at the losing end if my only plan failed.Furthermore,I am woriried of my years as M.O,junior doctors will be increasing for sure and placement will be more competitive.
hello,
i am planning to quit my hosuemanship. i choose this pathway on my own but lately i am really hating this life. i hate seeing my patients .. and i dont seem to be bothered if anything happens to them or not …
everyone at home wants me to continue but i find it very hard to go ahead. each day i have to really force myself every second to go thru with the pain.
are there any options for me .. i know my mum spent a lot of money to educate me in this field .. but i just cant help how i feel .. aren’t there any options for me ?????
hey,
i am really thinking of quitting my hosuemanship .. i am really hating this profession now ……
i hate seeing the patients .. hate treating them, hate doing all neccesary works for them .. hate seeing them in the morning . it is hard for me to wake up everyday and go for this job … i dont feel interested in wut i am doing now …at all…. just doing it because my back is againts a wall …
i know my mum spent a fortune educating me .. everyone is asking me to continue this job ….. i feel so forced … everyday i dont feel happy at all ….
i just dont know wut to do .. dont know why i am feeling like this ..
if i quit what are my options ..?? i dont want to sit and home and do nothing … pls help me ..
It looks like medicine is NOT the field for you. If you want to quit housemanship, you can go ahead but it means that you would not be able to work as a doctor anymore. You need to find another job, like pharma companies etc etc. BUT whatever you have done for the last 5 years is going to be a waste. Or you can do another undergraduate degree of your choice. You’re the 2nd person to ask me about quiting housemanship via this blog and I am sure there will be many more to come.
Hi Doctor,
i’m interested in neurology,my question is,is there anyway i could be a neurosurgeon through MRCP?
Are you talking about Neurology or Neurosurgery? They are 2 different field. After MRCP, you can undergo subspeciality training to become a neurologist.
As for neurosurgery, you need to do basic surgical training under local Master’s programme before going into Neurosurgery subspeciality training. However, USM do have Master’s programme in Neurosurgery.
As a neurologist,i cant perform any surgery right?
thats kind of disappointing.
Yes. All this will take another 10 years post undergraduate education. So, don’t think about it now!!
haha i’m graduating really soon…,i guess i’ll queue up along with others since i want to be a surgeon.. thx doc!
[…] For Future Doctors: Housemanship, Medical Officer and Postgraduate Training (Part 3) November 2010 101 comments […]
eh doctor,do you think i should take MRCP first then after 18 months i subspecialise,then only opt for surgery field? lol…
or
opt for master programme
or
MRCS
PS:i really want to work in malaysia,even if i work in singapore i want to come back work in the future.
I think you don’t know what you are talking about. MRCP is to become an Internal Medicine specialist, after which you subspecialise in certain subspeciality. It is NOT a surgical field.
MRCS is not recognised in Malaysia as a surgical speciality. In order for you to become a surgeon in Malaysia, your only option is Master’s programme.
meaning if u come back as foreign-trained surgeon, u can’t be a surgeon in msia? Isn’t there a way for foreign-trained surgeon to work in msia? like exams/ observation?
If your specialist degree is recognised, than no problem. If not, it will be decided on case by case basis.
FRCS and FRACS are recognised in Malaysia.
i feel worried when a almost-graduating medstudent said something like this.
Queen, I share your worry too, very worried
heya … sounds easy sir …
but my family wants me to continue for the 2 years …… hmmm ….. easy to say … i just hate thinking that i have to go thru another day in the hospital. how can i explain it to them ??
i am just at my wits end here … everyday is a miserable day for me ….. i wish i can just walk away from my job this instant. pls do help me out sir. is this the end of life? cuz all my family members seem to think that this is the biggest mistake of my life if i walk away ….
If you are not interested in being a doctor then there is no point continuing. Ur parents should understand this as well.
If they don’t then you need to make a decision by yourself but without burdening your parents.
i have just passed mrcp
I read in your site that you can only apply for sub-specialty training 1 year after you have been gazetted as a specialist. This means 2 and half years after passing MRCP (UK)
The policy is dimwitted
i think the natural inclination is to get sub- training in singapore
suppose you take up the offer and jump the sinking ship here and get trained there, but later perhaps 10 or 15 years you want to return here to practice, albeit it seems defying any logic though, what would the scenario be?
you are not recognized as a Physician by the National Specialist Register (NSR) as you were never gazetted before.
does the NSR here recognizes other sub-specialty training in singapore
thanks
usually if you have MRCP and undergo training in Singapore, there is no problem. All subspeciality training in Singapore are well structured and have exit exams before you are awarded the fellowship in the respective subseciality. This is recognised by our Academy of Medicine and MOH. So, No problem as long as you complete the training in Singapore and have all the documents.
Remember, even in Singapore, you will not be given a training post immediately. You probably have to work as a senior MO/Registra for a while before being accepted into the training programme. Whatever it is, it will still be faster than KKM.
And dr pagavalan, do u mean to say that nsr will recognize doc train as say for example a cardio in spore as general physician and cardiologist together?
Dr, i m a final yr medical student who is keen to go singapore for postgrad training but i m not quite understand what do you mean by: quote from ur previous post: “if you have MRCP and undergo training in Singapore”? does it mean skipped the 18mth gazzetment in msia after pass MRCP and immediately apply jobs in Singapore hospital? does Singapore still recognised us as specialist eventhough skipped the 18mth gazettement and not registered under NSR?
Having MRCP only entitles you to become a registra in Singapore. You can get into their subspeciality training after that. You don’t need 18 months gazettement in Malaysia but you need to complete your subspeciality in Singapore before returning. If not, you may need to complete your 18 months up[on returning.
That’s 1 year after gazettement. If u got ur MRCP before the so called 4 years ruling u need to wait more than 18 mths for gazettment
thanks for the super prompt reply
you mentioned before of ijn sub- training as a cardiology before, kinda too fancy to be true either
anyway are there any sub- training in the local universities ?
i.e. not through kkm, that means you join as a training lecturer or lecturer besides getting a training post
thanks again
There is a Trainee Lecturer post in local universities where you are guaranteed a place in master’s. You will be bonded for 7 years if I am not mistaken. If am not mistaken as well, UM only offers Trainee Lecturer post to Bumiputeras. The other option is to quit MOH and join University Hospitals and undergo training in certain subspeciality. It is recognised.
thanks again
heard recently there are changes to the subspecialty training in kkm. That you are required to sign a contract. after completion of training, let say 3 or 4 years you are bonded in the service perhaps 5 years.
is it true?
best regards
guess it is still not too late to wish you Happy new Year
Yes, I heard the same. Probably to prevent people from leaving immediately after finishing subspeciality training.
ok
i rest my case
millions of thanks
hi dr,
i’m an M&HO working in primary care setting. tho we are talking abt overflow of doctors, i’ve been working alone managing about 200 patients per day, (outpatients and antenatal patients). not to mention the paperworks and managements.
i couldn’t get any satisfaction for this since i think i’m managing patients too superficially. this is too depressing and decided to continue my postgraduate study in anaesthesiology as i have some experience before.
i found this article and this is surely adding to my anxiety since you mentioned about unrecognised masters programme malaysia is running.
i really want to serve the country and the people, and also hoping to increase the standard of malaysia health/medical system.
what do you propose? should i continue with the masters programme?
thanx in advance
p/s: i’m sitting for entrance exam this saturday
The overflow of doctors have not reached you yet. It will take another 2-4 years to see the overflow reaching the semirural/rural areas.
Yes, our Master’s degree is not recognised elsewhere. For Anaesthesiology, the incampus training at UKM and UM is recognised for you to sit for FANZCA (australian degree). You can sit for their Part 1 and 2 but need to go to Australia for their viva. If you do outcampus, only Penang GH, KLGH and IJN training centres are recognised for FANZCA. So, if you intend to do anaesthesiology, please look into these options. Visit FANZCA website.
dr nav, would it be ok if i had ur email address? im interested in taking the anzca exams but have some queries. i would appreciate it if you could help me with these questions. thank you very much.
Email charlotte_harlot@hotmail.com and I’ll reply you from my real address. Before you ask me anything, take the time to go thru the ANZCA website …. lots of info on training and exams there. Then if you still have questions, email me.
http://www.anzca.edu.au
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
And I’m the 3rd to opt out, not for quitting housemanship, but from medical school. I’m a final year medical student in local gov uni, and it’s only about 3 months left to my final exams.
I’ve been thinking of this for almost 1 year now, but most of my friends and lecturers/drs were against it. They said if i quit now, the past 6 yrs (including matriculation-I’m among the lucky ducks in the slim 10%) would be a total waste. I’ll be left with nothing but a SPM qualification! not even STPM.. Sad.
I have wanted to becoming a medical doctor and enjoying it all this while, dedicated to my study, attending lectures, ward-rounds, clerking patients, follow clinics.. everything seems okay and I thought this is what I want my life to be.
But lately the thought of “is that ALL you want in your life, seeing pt, exams and rounds?” came into my mind. I can’t picture myself in all these routines like I used to before, and I wished, wished for an escape.
I can’t be sure whether this so-called traditional “guaranteed life” suit me any longer. There’s one dr told me this, “when you’ve decided to do medicine and is sure of it, never try to think of alternatives or other easy way out, i.e I can always quit and do other thing else. Then only you can stay focus and get back all your passion and enthusiasm!” So I did, tried hard for the past 1 year. Things doesn’t change much though.
So sir, what is your advise on this?
I’ve chosen to study medicine purely by my own choice, and my parents are always supportive in the decision making.
Thank you, sir, your entries have put a glimpse of light into my hectic studying schedule.
Enjoy your day~
Fly
Since you are already at the tail end of the course, I suggest that you finish it. If not, atleast ask the university whether you can switch course for something else.
Once you have finished the MBBS, you can decide what to do. I had friends in my batch who never worked as a doctor after graduating and they are all doing well in business now. If not, ask what the others said, you are just a SPM holder!
Dear. Dr,
Is there a way to contact Dr. Moe? perhaps by email? Thanks.
ANE
you can try mohanarajahg@gmail.com
Thanks dr. !!
alredi sent u an email =)
hello dr Pagalavan. Im a jpa scholar and plan to do specialization right after my housemanship. Since im a jpa scholar, i have to work for the goverment for 10 years….is it possible for me to take the mrcp exam during my housemanship?? will i be offered a job in malaysia right after completing the mrcp exam since i have to complete the 10years agreement working with the goverment???? thanks for ur attention dr Pagalavan. Eagerly waiting for ur reply…thank you 🙂
I think you don’t understand the process. MRCP has 3 parts. You can sit for Part 1 after 1 year of housemanship and subsequently Part 2 and Part 3. All in all, the fastest to complete MRCP will be 4-5 years after graduation, assuming you pass all the exams in 1 try! Mind you, most people DO NOT pass the exams in 1 try. Each time you fail 1 attemp, it will take another 3-4 months to resit, as the exams are only conducted 3 times/year all over the world. To sit for Part 2 and 3, you need adequate clinical exposure and training. Even after passing MRCP, you need to undergo another 18 months of training before being gazetted as a specialist.
So, you need to start your housemanship and then plan to sit for your Part 1 and then along the way, sit for your Part 2 & 3 after adequate training in medical department. Your gov bonding wil also run together. Also remember that after completing your MRCP and 18 months gazettment process, you will still need another 3-4 years of subspeciality training.
Thanks alot dr…it was reli helpful…..by the way. another quetion dr……since alot of doctors goina flood our country…which field do u think is da best to be specialize in…is it in internal medicine or surgical department? this is based on salary wise and knowledge wise???? In order to subspecialize we need to do masters as u said….when we can sit for masters program? is it after H&MO???? Thank you doctor 🙂
Thanks alot dr…it was reli helpful…..by the way. another quetion dr……since alot of doctors goina flood our country…which field do u think is da best to be specialize in…is it in internal medicine or surgical department? this is based on salary wise and knowledge wise???? In order to subspecialize we need to do masters as u said….when we can sit for masters program? is it after H&MO???? Thank you doctor 🙂 ……..
I think you should read some of my other postings especially the one on “General Misconception of being a doctor Part 1 & 2”. You can click on my Education page to read all my postings on : For Future Doctors series. If you are talking about money, then you are in the wrong field. Whatever specialisation you do, the salary is the same in government sector. As for private sector, the hospital DO NOT pay you a salary. It all depends on the number of patients you treat. Your income is the consultation fees that you charge the patient.
Master’s programme is a 4 years structured postgraduate programme run by the government universities. It is NOT an exam that you can just sit as you like. You have to apply for the programme and whether you get a place ot not depends on availability of post in local universities. The earliest you can apply is after 3 years of service (including housemanship).
Hello Dr Pagalavan,
First and foremost i’d like to thank you for the very insightful and detailed explanation on all the many aspects of the medical profession. I’ve asked most of the above mentioned questions to many people in authority but none have explained it as clear as you did 😉 Im a medical graduate from Universitas Gadjah Mada (UGM) and am now a Houseman. There have been many complaints and talks about graduates from Indonesia not being competent, & etc..and ever since I’m in medical school I’ve tried to set things straight and clear the cloud over this matter. I hope you dont mind me sharing this on your blog. Just to set things straight Im a straight As student frm UPSR-SPM. I took a scholarship offered by the JPA to Indonesia ( there were 20 other straight As students). Before starting my medical school, I took Cambridge A-Levels and again scored all As in which many of whom with lower grades proceeded to take their medical degrees in the UK. Then I had to sit for the university (UGM) entrance exam before being accepted into the university. After 5 very challenging years I graduated with distinctions and came back to serve the country. I find housemanship in Malaysia rather similar to the clinical rotations we had in Indonesia and of course it is very challenging but I think Im doing well. It is just frustrating when people immediately assume that I am a less qualified houseman compared to my collegues from other unis. I’d like to ask whether my medical degree from an Indonesian uni would hinder me from pursuing my postgrad training (Masters/MRCP) ?
Yes, I understand your frustration but people as always, will generalise the issue. University Gajahmada is one of the top universities in Indonesia and their products are usually good but sadly not the same can be said about the others.
Ur undergraduate degrees do not hinder you from doing MRCP but due to limited seats, same can’t be said about Master’s.
Hello doctor. I’m a JPA scholar and was sent to a Russian university, graduated last year. I just recently started my housemanship and am now a 2nd poster in a local hospital.
Despite my best efforts, I find myself performing sub-par with my colleagues. For a while now I have been unhappy with housemanship and intend to quit but seeing that I am bonded to JPA for 10 years I’m uncertain of my options. I really would not mind working for the government for that long but as anything else other than this. The thought of quitting medicine was considered before but how to do so has never been clear to me so I never did.
Having discussed the matter with my family members and psych officer here, they only try to encourage me to persist further as a houseman, at least until I get my full liscense but as it is I do not intend to continue in this profession any longer.
I also have tried looking for any JPA officer that may be able to help but the emails and phone calls attempted to contact numbers found online have been unsuccessful.
What are the options available for someone in my situation?
Most people that I have approached to discuss regarding this matter insist For me to just hang in there but I do not find any satisfaction in this profession and. Truthfully I would not mind working a job I hate if I were actually good at it, but as a doctor it seems I am grossly incompetent. It has come to a point where I am having suicidal tendencies.
The aftermath of quitting would be a minor concern for me in relation to the stress and depression I am currently facing, but the problem is I don’t even know HOW to quit my job without breaking my contract.
Although I would like to know what alternatives do I have now. How do I go about quitting and what alternative career path would subsequently be possible?
Please help. The desperation is too much for me to handle and I really do not know what to do besides trudging around following rounds feeling exhausted and not being able to focus or concentrate, and I am having difficulty recaling anything from the 6yrs of med school underwent in Russia.
Thank you in advance, sincerely.
I think you should read my article ” For Future Doctors: What if ………………..”. Please go to my education page (at the top of my blog page). Your are not the first person who is caught in this dilema. Many at times, this happens because you were not aware what doctors actually do or your parents decided for you that you should do medicine. After spending 6 years, you are just going to waste everything.
Don’t worry about JPA. Most of the time you can negotiate with them and find out what are the options if you quit. However, you need to go to Putrajaya yourself to discuss this. To me, that is a minor issue. FYI , it will take years sometimes for them to know that you have left the gov service!
As for your housemanship, you must understand that if you quit, you can never be able to practise medicine anymore. It is also difficult to find another job that needs MBBS, unless you do your own business in a field other than medicine. I had explained about this in my said article above. If you really can’t handle it, then it is better you quit and find another field. You may need to do another course to get a good job.
Hello doctor,
could you tell me what is the pathway to become oral and maxillofacial surgeon?is it a master programme or is there other professional exam for it?
do you know whether there is a subspeciality for oral and maxillofacial surgeon?
Oral and Maxillofacial surgeons are dental surgeons. You need to become a dentist first before doing Master’s programme for oral and maxillofacial surgery.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan Letchumanan,
I am about to start medical school in September this year with Penang Medical College. I know PMC is only recognised by the Malaysian Medical Council and the Irish Medical Council, would it still be possible for me to work in Australia at the end of the day (i.e. after I complete my housemanship in Malaysia/Ireland)? What are the procedures?
Is this the correct website I should be looking at?
http://www.amc.org.au/index.php/img#ca
Thank you for your time.
Singapore Medical Council also recognises PMC now.
You are looking at the correct website for Australia, and you could work in Aus under the ‘Competent Authority’ pathway ONLY IF you do your internship in Ireland or any other place recognised by the Irish Medical Council or another ‘competent authority’ country (e.g. UK or NZ).
Be wary though …. a lot of things can change in 5-6 years. Aus only recognised UK/Irish degrees about 3 years ago. Previously UK/Irish grads could only work in Aus temporarily for up to 3 years … if they wanted to stay or get general registration to do postgrad training, they had to sit the AMC exam. With the tsunami of new medical graduates in Australia, they may revert to the old system.
Same with Singapore. 10 years ago they only recognised about 20 medical schools worldwide. Now they’re so desperate, they recognise about 100 … once they fill their jobs, they may decide to close shop again.
Good luck.
Is it true that singapore medical council recognise PMC now?
No, if you read further down I have clarified my comments. They only recognised it for 1-2 years, and withdrew recognition in 2007.
Nav has given you the answer. By the time you graduate in 2016, many things can change!
Thank you for your speedy replies and for the very useful information, although I have one point to make.
I got in touch with Singapore Medical Council (SMC) some time last month and it is to my knowledge that since 1 October 2007, medical degrees obtained from medical schools which are located off-site from its main campus, i.e., in another country for the entire or partial duration of the clinical training, would not be recognised for registration by SMC. In other words, clinical years must be completed on-site of the Scheduled University which is recognised by the SMC. PMC’s clinical years are done in Penang itself, not RCSI or UCD (Scheduled Universities under SMC). Therefore it would be correct to say that SMC does not recognise PMC per se.
Yes long way more, I certainly hope things change for the better too. Maybe with the halt on the mushrooming of medical schools in Malaysia, things will get better eventually? And working in Malaysia will be more attractive to me? Fingers crossed! Current medical schools here must most definitely decrease intake of students or it will probably come up to the same thing as opening new schools. I will definitely try to do my internship in Ireland (!) despite the many negativities I have been hearing about Malaysians having tremendous difficulty getting internships there.
Thank you again.
Yes, I did hear something like that from SMC before that they do not recognise degrees that are not done in the main campus, same goes to UM/UKM.
Yes, keep your fingers crossed but I still feel the situation will only get worst. Even though, the government has put a stop to new medical schools, the existing ones seem to be increasing the number of students. Cyberjaya were just caught increasing their students to 236 despite MMC allowing only 150 students!! Same goes to Monash, Newcastle and the upcoming John Hopkins, Perak Premier college etc etc. You must also understand that most of these private schools have not even started to produce their graduates!!
Getting housemanship post in Ireland and UK is increasingly difficult and recently doctors in Ireland had to undertake a pay cut due to poor economic status of the country.
Yes, interesting update on SMC not recognising PMC any more. They definitely did at one point (I personally know people who have worked in Singapore direct from PMC) but I cannot find any reference to it on the SMC website anymore.
Curiously, this NST article from 2009 has PMC (or the reporter anyway claiming their degree is still recognised by the SMC, which is obviously not the case since 2007.
http://thestar.com.my/education/story.asp?file=/2009/6/28/education/4035149&sec=education
Here’s a recent rant (2010) from a current PMC student about PMC, and the comments after are also worth a read.
http://margeemar.blogspot.com/2010/03/help-penang-medical-college.html
hello,
Nice to meet u all . I’m trying to sit MRCP. I’m dying to know whether I will get a job in sigapore & the salary for MRCP holder.
It would be great if someone share the information concerning my question.
In order for you to go to singapore, you need to complete all 3 parts of MRCP. After that you can try to apply for a senior MO or registra post in Singapore, depending on which field you want to subspecialise. You can get a registra post directly if you choose a least popular post. If not you will only get a MO post for the first 1 year before they absorb you into subspecialist training as a registra. The salary for MO is about $5-7 000, including on call allowance and for Registra $7-9 000.
respected sir , i am mbbs graduate from india planning for mrcp i am interested in cardiology is there any cardiology(interventional) program after mrcp ? job oppurtunities in uk after mrcp thanking you sir
It is difficult to get jobs in UK nowadays due to their new immigrations laws implemented from 2007 where UK and EU citizens are given priority.
sir iam planning for mrcp in india after mrcp what are the possibilities and ways to do cardiology in any part of the world
probably you can try Singapore after your MRCP.
Dear DR. Pagalavan,
first off, your information has been very helpful, and motivating. thank you so much.
i am a final year medical student from ukraine. i am aware of my own weakness and i will do what i can to improve. i want to go on in the medical field, and hence after reading all the info, i just have more questions.
– i understand the MRCP process, and the gazzetement, just one final question remains which is, after the gazzetement, what’s next?
how do i apply for sub-specialty training? where do i apply? can i apply while i’m still under the gazzetement process? will i be accepted as soon as i apply, or it’s subjected to seats available? in short, i would like to know about the sub-specialty training, and maybe as specific examples, you can tell me the route on to cardiologist and neurologist.
– if i got accepted by singapore as MO post-MRCP, is it certain that i will be absorbed into the sub-specialty training after 1 year? or is it like in malaysia where the time frame is always unknown.
– after i have completed my specialist training in singapore, is my license recognized in malaysia, and is my license recognized internationally for that matter.
– is malaysian specialist license recognized internationally? and what are your recommendations for internationally recognized sub-specialty programmes post-MRCP?
– i planned to work in medium-sized hospital in sabah or sarawak to learn as much as i can without too much competition (HO overflow). but your advice is after i pass part 1 and 2 MRCP, i apply for transfer to bigger hospital for training purposes to handle part 3, even if i’m in a rural hospital?
i’m aware of the hardship of obtaining my specialty and i am prepared to face it. but i really need your help on pointing a clear path, or clear procedure on how to do it. this is so that i can plan ahead, and be clear of what i have to do without wasting unnecessary time waiting and waiting. thank you so much for your attention. looking forward to receiving your reply.
Please see my latest post
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
Firstly thank you for putting up this site. I have been crawling the net to find information and this is exactly what I have been looking for.. My queries are as follows..
I have graduated from IMU with its local degree. I’m considering working in Singapore as my fiancee is Singaporean and I am trying to figure out my options..
IMU’s degree is still yet to be recognised by Singapore. I have found that I have the chance of serving housemanship in Singapore if I sit for NUS’s final MBBS exam. Alternatively I could do MRCP later on, however that takes many years which I can’t really afford. Plus Malaysian Masters programmes are not recognised by Singapore.
Is there another way besides having to take the NUS exam? I have heard that it is possible to apply directly to hospitals and that they can consider it on a case-by-case basis, but I have not been able to confirm this from anywhere.
What are your thoughts on this?
IMU degree is not recognised elsewhere except if I am not mistaken, in Sri Lanka. Singapore may consider on a case by case basis if you are an MO of more than 5 years. Thus, if you are still doing housemanship then you are far away. You need to talk to Singapore Medical council and not directly to the respective hospitals. No hospitals in Singapore will employ you if you can’ t be registered by SMC.
The other option is for you to work in JB and travel daily to singapore, for the time being. I know a few who does that.
Thanks so much for the clarification Doc!
Dear Dr Paga,
First of all, I must say that I think you are extremely kind to reply each and every post with such patience. Our medical community is lucky to to have someone such as yourself!
In reference to an earlier reply by Tan N, I graduated from Melaka Manipal Medical College 2 years ago and I’m relieved to find myself and other colleagues from my university functioning well at the hospitals. By our second year of housemanship, many of us were already selected to do MO calls.
Though I cannot be sure whether the quality has deteriorated in these past 2 years, I find graduates from MMMC much more competent than junior housemen from Russia, Ukraine or Indonesia. As someone who works alongside these doctors and witnessing first hand the danger they bring to patients, I can only hope that the govt can eventually see how inadequate the training is over there.
Dr. Paga, I am thinking of pursuing a career in aesthetics. I realise that it is not a speciality but rather an area of interest. Could you please tell me what is the best path for this and whether or not it is a good choice seeing as there will be a large influx of doctors in just a few years. I worry that not having a masters degree will be a great disadvantage in the near future, yet I wish to balance my family life as well and would like better working hours.
Thank you in advance for your advice.
Thanks for the compliments. Aesthetics is not recognised by MOH as a speciality. However, MOH do have guidelines in the practise of aesthetic medicine. UCSI do have Master’s programme in aesthetis medicine. The only way you can practise aesthetic is by becoming a GP. There are many GPs who does courses in aesthetics. Of course with the current trend of people going for anti-ageing medications, aesthetic has good future in term of making money. BUT to me, it is a waste when you neglect what you have learned so far in terms of medicine.
Aesthetic medicine is a money-making GP scam. No real ‘medicine’ involved. Like the GPs who do TCM on the side.
I think it’s a bit harsh to sat that Aesthetics does not involve real medicine.. The scope is larger than just botox or laser..
I initially planned to go into dermatology, but as it is a subspeciality, I would have to get a masters in medicine first or do MRCP. Hence I thought aesthetics / regenerative medicine might be a good alternative.
Dr Paga, I looked up the master’s course offered by UCSI. If i’m not mistaken, most aesthetics medicine practitioners do the diploma in dermatology followed by the aesthetics certificate. Would a master’s degree (from UCSI) be a better option?
Aesthetic medical practitioners do the work of beauticians under the guise of scientific medicine.
I quote the International Association for Physicians in Aesthetic Medicine:
Denifition of aesthetic medicine: “A branch of medicine focused on satisfying the aesthetic desires and goals of patients. This specialty is primarily focused on the pathophysiology of aging skin, and adheres to scientific based procedures. Physicians practicing Aesthetic Medicine are trained in both invasive and non-invasive treatment modalities, and typically utilize a combination to meet the needs of the patient.”
Core competencies:
Light-based Therapies (hair removal, laser treatment of leg veins)
Cosmetic Injectable’s (Botox™, soft tissue fillers)
Skin Rejuvenation (medical grade chemical peels, microdermabrasion)
http://www.iapam.com/aboutiapam
If you want to be a dermatologist, do a proper postgrad in dermatology. Not one of those 6-month diplomas or aesthetic medicine.
seriously I got no idea. As far as I know, it may not make any difference as it is not recognised as a specialist field. If you want to practise aesthetics, might as well you don’t practise real medicine. A lot of GPs are venturing into aesthetics simply to make money as most of these GPs are not doing well. Diploma in dermatology is also not recognised as a specialist degree now. Previously, about 15-20 years ago, a diploma holder can call himself a dermatologits but not anymore.
[…] https://pagalavan.com/2010/11/11/for-future-doctors-housemanship-medical-officer-and-postgraduate-tra… […]
Can I do MRCP while working 4 years in O&G department?
Yes for Part 1 and NO for Part 2. For Part 2, you need adequate clinical exposure!
Good day,
I am a medical student from UKM. Just graduated and right now awaiting to be deployed as HO by MOH. However, I did apply to work in Singapore as well and I got the offer letter to the Republic a few months ago. Right now, I am in a huge dilemma. I do not know if I should go to Sg to work.
It seems the future of medicine training is weak in Malaysia and this worries me. The grand thing that is holding me back to Malaysia is Family and Comfort. But I know it is a sacrifice I will take if the future is bleak in Malaysia.
Currently the Sg MOH is doing the Residency program and they going to finish with their BST program. They are trying to emulate the US counterpart I suppose. I have no preference on doing which specialty training yet because I have yet to be exposed to the actual work of a medical personnel.
In your opinion dr, do you think going to Singapore has a better future compare to staying back in Malaysia for training?
Let me help you with your decision. I too am considering moving to Singapore so have thought about this long and hard.
Pros:
1. I take it from your name that you’re Chinese. Singapore’s pro-Chinese policies will favour you throughout your career (don’t believe the meritocracy propaganda they espouse, their racial discrimination is implicit whereas in Malaysia it’s explicit). You’ll get promoted ahead of others.
2. Safe place with much less crime
3. Good standard of teaching
4. Pay is good, even better after converting to Ringgit
5. Very close to home
6. Open society in terms of partying, concerts, etc.
Cons:
1. Unfriendly people
2. Substandard food compared to Malaysia
3. No democracy, media freedom or freedom of speech. Seriously. If you think Malaysia is bad, Singapore is much worse in this respect.
4. They work you like a dog and you have no real free time. Things are expected to be done yesterday. My friend who worked there as a HO said she could only afford 1 weekend a month to go back to KL.
5. American style residency postgrad – am in 2 minds about this. Has its own pros and cons. Don’t see what was wrong with the previous system. As long as they don’t teach American-style defensive medicine.
6. Expensive property. Forget about living in landed property for a while.
7. Bad schooling system. Malaysian system is also bad good but for different reasons. In Singapore, your child will be given tons of homework and have immense pressure to succeed even from Standard 1. Their suicide rate after their PSLE exam (equivalent to UPSR) is no joke.
8. The country has no real character or soul. Vey materialistic and even ‘fun’ is manufactured by the government.
To add to point 1, if you think they are unfriendly, just wait till you deal with their kiasu-ism.
They’ll backstab you at the first opportunity…
i think Nav has said the pros and cons about singapore. I think for housemanship, it does not matter where you do it. In fact Malaysian hospitals has more load then Singapore’s. However, in term of postgraduate studies, it depends on which field that you are interested in. Of course, their speciality training is more of an open system compared to Malaysia where most of it depends on Master’s programme. I don’t quite like the residency system where you are pushed to the subspeciality training straight away after internship. Not good if you are planning to come back to Malaysia in the future. Salary wise , of course Singapore is better. Their postgraduate training in medical field is good but can’t say the same for surgical fields where it will take a long time for you to get hand’s on training compared to Malaysia.
Patients in Singapore are more demanding. Even though the patient load are much smaller than Malaysian hospitals but the demand of the patients are greater and they would not hesitate to scold or sue you. One day, malaysia will also become like this but still a long way to go. I would rather suggest for you to do housemanship in Malaysia and then decide to go to Singapore depending on what speciality that you are interested in
Hi Dr Pagalvan,
I have completed my fellowship training in General Medicine from Pakistan (FCPS – Gen. Medicine) and I am currently working in UAE for the last 3 years. I also have attained my MRCP(UK) in 2010. However I am still working as a GP here in Dubai. They Health Authority criteria here in order for specialist recognition requires that you need at least three years of post fellowship/Membership experience as a speicalist in order to be eligible for recognition as a speicialist which I lack so I find it hopeless working as a GP when I am more qualified with no future or any prospect of career progression.
I wish to move to Australia and possibly settle there. What do you advice. What would be the best pathway through which I could easily move there if so..and what are the prospects of attaining a training post in any medical sub speciality in Australia. Are there any advantages of being MRCP in Aus?
Looking forward for your wise and experienced guidance.
Australia do nt recognise MRCP as a specialist degree. You need to sit for the AMC exam to be able to work in Australia.
Aus does not recognize MRCP without the CST. You will probably have to sit the AMC exams, try and get a medical registrar job, then sit for the FRACP exam to work in Aus as a qualified physician.
Hi Dr, just interested in asking you about the pros and cons of in and outcampus postgraduate programs for internal medicine in Malaysia. Which would you feel is better?
I presume you are talking about local Master’s programme. If so, in-campus is definately better for internal medicine.
dear dr,
i have gone through some of your discussion and wish to get opinion on few issues.
im a 31 years malaysian,mbbs graduate from melaka manipal medical college,currently planning to do MRCOG.im in my 5th year of service with ministry of health,did 1.5 years housemanship and rest are district hospital service training.
i had to postponed last 2 years from giving exams due to my family problems.i have planned to sit for part 1 in next march 2012.meanwhile,im married to Indian citizen and i have also got the indian People of indian origin status.
i wish to know whther am i going on the right path with my postgraduate studies or shall i switch to MMED o&g.if i do postgraduate in UM or UKM,is it recognised outside malaysia,especially india?
do give you opinion.
thank you/
I would suggest to con’t with MRCOG. Master’s degree is not recognised elsewhere.
Dear Dr Pagalavan, I am a final year MBBS student in KL, 2 weeks to my exams and currently need to fill my BMD form to choose which hospitals to go to for HOship. Honestly, I’ve been quite clueless as there is no constructive information to refer to about each training hospital. I am interested in coming back to KL for MOship, hence, need to apply to hospitals outside of KL/Selangor for HOship. I have a few questions for you Sir:
1. I have to choose 3 hospitals with a reason for each in the form. If I choose all 3 in the same state, eg: Perak – Taiping, Ipoh, Teluk Intan.. is this wise?
2. Can you suggest good hospitals in our Peninsular for training Houseofficers please? I am keen on learning as much as I can in this coming 2 years!
Thank You Dr Pagalavan.
1) you can choose whichever hospital that you want but not necessary that you will get any one of it. MOH will decide for you especially with the current incresing glut.
2) Most general hospitals are good. The busier the hospital, the better. However, please do not go to the new hospitals in Klang velley like Selayang, Sg Buloh, Ampang, Serdang etc as they are specialised hospitals with limited beds. Life may be relaxing but you won’t learn much.
3) there is NO guarantee that if you do housemanship outside KL , you can be back to KL for MOship!! After housemanship, MOH will decide where you will go!!
Thank You Dr Pagalavan.
I think I have some choices in mind now:
Teluk Intan, Taiping and either Temerloh or Ipoh General.
Dr, do you think these are good choices for HO training?
Have a good day Sir.
fairly good except Temerloh which I don’t think has all the subspeciality
Dear Dr,
My son has been awarded JPA sponsorship for medicine at AUCMS and will be awarded an MD from UKM. What is your advise?
PS
This MD(UKM) is not recognised elsewhere. Singapore only recognise MD(UKM) done in the main campus. Personally I don’t trust AUCMS. However, being a JPA scholar has it”s advantages like job security etc etc but beware that you are bonded with the government for 10 years. If he gets local Master”s programme later on, the bonding will con’t another 7 years and so on. Basically you will be bonded forever. As Nav has said, please see the reason why your son wants to do medicine. Make sure it is not for money/glamour as there is o money in medicine anymore.
Hard to turn down a JPA scholarship. Just be aware that there is no real money to be made in medicine any more due to the glut of doctors. Your son should do medicine only if he really wants to, not because his parents want him to 🙂
Doc..im in a dilemma,ive been offered a jpa scholarship to india..dont get me wrong,india is indeed a good place to study medicine but currently the government are sending students to unrecognised universities in india,with the exceptional of KMC. there are seven universities where the govenrment might send me,and only ONE(KMC) is recognised worldwide.. therefore will be a problem if i have a degree from an unrecognised university and want to apply for a masters degree for say,Singapore?
There is also another question,if i reject JPA.my future plan would be to study my a-levels and go all the way to IMU.
I want to go to Singapore for my masters,so is an IMU degree recognised?
I hope u can enlighten me a.s.a.p as i have to make a decision fast..thx doc
First of all, if you are a JPA scholar, you will be bonded with the government for 10 years. So, unlikely that you will be able to go to Singapore without paying a fine!
IMU is not recognised by Singapore unless you take the twinning programme and graduate from the overseas university.
Lastly the situation is going to get very tough after 2015/16 in terms of jobs and postgraduate training. Pls beware of that. Glut is worsening. Forget about postgraduate and be worried whether you will even get a job in the first place!
So what is your advice…take JPA and take the risk to be sended to an unrecognised university in India but confirmed a job..or go on with IMU,use that degree to work locally first,and think of a masters later..(because in sense of IMU,much time can be saved).
Is MRCP a kind of course or an exam to make your degree recognised?
I would go ahead with the JPA scholarship. As for MRCP, please read my post on “Step by step approach to speciality”
Alright,thank you doctor…^^
*sorry for the first paragraph
therefore will IT be a problem if i have a degree from an unrecognised university and want to apply for a masters degree for say,Singapore?
I wouldn’t be so concerned about the masters degree, considering you haven’t even started medical school. You do realise that you would actually have to perform reasonably well in med school to qualify into a specialist training program, and with so many junior doctors coming out in the next few years, the competition is only going to get tougher.
However, if you’re keen on Singapore, try entering a UK/AUS/NZ medical school directly, or at least try the twinning program at IMU. Believe it or not, Singapore actually has a recruitment team in Australian medical schools to lure Malaysian students to work in Singapore.
Yeah, since 2002/03 when Singapore started recognising more than just 20 medical schools, they have been sending recruitment teams to Aus, NZ and UK, targeting Malaysian students. Have had feedback that interviewers have been rude and unprofessional but that may have been isolated cases a while back – though I expected more from a ‘developed’ country.
Hi Huskies, I came across ur comment on Singapore recruiting malaysian graduates in Australia. I am currently an MO in Aust, completed AMC part 1+2 therefore fully registered to work. However, got my MD from Canada (recognised uni by SMC). Given that SMC only recognizes degrees where both basic qualification and licence is obtained from same country, do you think I would still stand a chance to gain employment in Singapore… (miss the char kuey teow there too much la..)..oh, yeah I’m freakin chineeeseee. Not kiasu though. Banana maybe. hehehehehehe
Guli-guli, I presume you undertook the IMU-PMS program to Canada, which does not allow foreign graduates to remain in the country. However, if your degree is recognised by Singapore, you should be able to register as a houseman there. Why you want to that is beyond comprehension, considering you already have a job in Australia (which pays twice as much with probably less stress than working in Singapore). If you ask me, Char Koay Teow seems like a pretty lame excuse – with so many Chinese in Australia now, Char Koay Teow is pretty much everywhere – unless of course you’re working in the Northern Territory or some rural community. I suspect some other underlying motives – maybe it’s the ten-year moratorium on foreign doctors? I’m sure you’ve heard of that.
And the reason why Singapore is desperate for Australia-trained graduates is because very few graduates actually return to Singapore. Mind you, only 1 out of approximately 20 Singaporeans from my University actually returned, the rest remained in Australia for 2011. And that one person is regretting his decision even as I write now. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Singapore rely on UM and UKM graduates for the next few years – at least until its new medical schools are established.
Huskies, thank you for your reply. You made a very good observation there but my reason for wanting to go to Singapore is more……..masochistic..
I have 10 years under my belt working in Perth public system, so moratorium does not apply to me.
I have however, been trying to get into surgical training but no luck. My plan is to seek a training post in Singapore, sit for the exit exams and then return back to Aust. (may have to sit for their FRACS exams later but I have to face it one way or another)
I have surgical experience and passed the first part exams but can’t get further. Selection here only lets you try a few times then you cannot apply anymore. Very restrictive.
Yes, I did IMU-PMS years ago. I don’t know how SMC regards this as at the time of graduation, IMU did not even have a clinical school.
While I’m still young and single and mobile, I like to try all options.
Do you know how hard it is to get into the new surgical training program in Singapore? Any thoughts on the process? Can I apply for MO based on my experience?
SMC does not care if you are from a IMU-PMS, as long as your degree is on their list of recognised medical schools (most of the IMU-PMS are on that list).
There is no guarantee you can get into the Masters programme in Singapore. They will be very nice to you when they try to recruit you and you will likely be given an MO job in whatever dept they please – may not even be surgery! The recruitment people and the people who actually allocate you the MO post do not communicate well.
I had a friend in a similar situation, having had years of O&G experience as a registrar overseas – was offered an MO job in Singapore with the recruitment people “guaranteeing” that she will get into the training programme for sure. When she contacted the department directly, they had never heard of her. The HOD said there was no guarantee she’d be given an MO job in that dept (i.e. she could be posted to medical or paeds or any other dept) and even if she was, she’d have to start from scratch and compete with everyone else for the Masters post. She ended up not going in the end.
I would advise you to contact the departments you intend on working in as well as the people who run the Masters programme to make sure you get the job you want.
NONE of our malaysia hospitals are regconized training centres for FRCS exam -which is the exit exam for MRCS graduates.
in Malaysia ,for those want to become general surgeons,neurosurgeons or Ent surgeons,the only way is by joining local u master programme.
One exception in surgical field of malaysia,Ophthalmo trainees are allowed to sit for FRCS after they hv done their MRCS exam.Most of the hospitals in malaysia are recognized training centres for FRCS ophthalmology.
Dear Dr Pagavalan, I must praise you for your insightful blog, really has been helpful to budding new doctors in malaysia. I still consider myself a junior doctor. after housemanship, i was in a district hospital without specialist for 2 years, moved on to a surgical department for 1 and a half years, was in masters, outcampus, for the past 2 years.
Sadly, i had not been able to pass through my part one exams, and am out of the programme. i am married with a wonderful 5 yr old daughter, and my wife is also doing her masters as well. I am still waiting for my official letter which should be out soon, then will have report back to bhg. latihan.
First and foremost, i chose to become a dr because of my passion to help people; it may be cliche but after years of seeing my late mother and my younger brother come in & out of hospitals, i really know how patient’s families suffer. My passion is surgery. How ever right now I’ve hit a stumbling block. Doing MRCS, and going to Singapore is an option, but I’ll be away from my wife and daughter, separated even now as I’m in the north, wife in KL, and daughter in Negeri. And as you mentioned earlier, there may be a lot of cons that i”ll probably be facing there.
I’d like to try again for master later; maybe general surgery in a different university ie UKM or USM. but with my history of failure, what are the chances of me getting another chance in the programme? will i be able to get another hadiah latihan persekutuan? if i finance the course on my own, is it possible?
If i apply another course ie plastic/paeds/neuro surgery will my chances be better?
Other options are to take up ophthalmology, or take up mrcp (though i’d need to start afresh). Are there any papers i can take for oncology? So far, I have not planned to go to the private sector yet. I also probably wont take up O&G or Paeds.
I’m still in the midst of researching these options; if I do get any info I’ll share it with you. I hope you you can shed some light as to help me choose my pathway. Thank you
Once you drop out of Master’s, your chances to get into any of the other Master’s programmes is very slim! The option you have is probably MRCS and to go to Singapore to do FRCS. The other option is to do Opthalmology after MRCS where FRCS (Opthal) can be done in Malaysia, we are recognised as a training centre for FRCS(Opthal). There are no papers to take in oncology. IN medicine, you always need to scarifice something to achieve something.
How about orthopaedic?
Your only option is Master’s
dear Dr. pagalavan ,
I just finish my medical school today..im very happy but also scared because im gonna start work soon…i know that there is tagging in hospitals and there is 6 departments and each department is 4 months..can u please give me an insight into how the system in malaysia works..do we have exams to pass for every department?..what is the criteria to pass tagging and pass the department…?
It depends on each hospital and departments and never standardised. Some departments do conduct exit viva. It all depends on the respective heads of departments and the Hospital’s Pengarah. However, you will be given a log book to complete in each postings. Some, do conduct written paper as well.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
maybe you can help me as I can’t really seem to find much information about this anywhere.
I would like to enquire about postgraduate training in Dermatology.
I am a Malaysian citizen but have been to medical school in Uk (graduated 2005) and am currently working in Australia sitting for my FRACP part 2 exams. I am looking to return to Malaysia as I can’t foresee myself living overseas much longer (homesick) and hope to finish my postgraduate education at home. I have thought about this for a long time and am convinced of going home.
I know there is a Master’s programme in Dermatology offered by UKM but am not sure how to apply/ enter.
I’m guessing I need to register with MMC first. Do I need to apply for a job before registering with MMC?
And then how do I actually apply for the Dermatology training? (Is that after being gazzetted for 18months?)
Should I try applying for dermatology training in Singapore as well?
I would be very grateful if maybe you knew a bit more about these processes. I’m just getting confused.
Thanks!!!
Firstly, I think it is better for you to complete your FRACP before coming home. FRACP is recognised as a specilist degree in Malaysia and you can work as a physician. Of course you need to register with MMC. However, since you have not worked in Malaysia before, you need to work with the government ( either in MOH or university hospitals) for atleast 4 years ( unless you are more than 10 years overseas). After getting a job in Malaysia and start to work, you can apply for Dermatology subspeciality training programme, which is a 3 year programme under MOH. How fast you will get the post depends on the demands. As for Master’s in dermatology UKM, it is a subspeciality programme, which means you still need FRACP or local Master’s in Internal Medicine degree.
Yes, you can try Singapore as well, after FRACP.
dear dr.
sorry to say but i feel you are very bias towards doctors who graduate from russian…i am a graduate from russia..the prestigious MMA now know as MSMU(moscow state medical university).its 1000 times better then any other local uni in malaysia..i do not understand why are you making your evaluation based on few rotten apples..i have HO from other local and europe uni who cant even answer me basic medical questions..wad do you have to say about that…i personally think that everybody is unhappy why are there so many doctors..and to shift the blame they blame it on the russian grads…please stop this mentality that wow local and europe,uk and australia grads are 1st class graduates and russian graduates are 2nd class..how can u say that u never saw any competent russian graduates?..i doubt even u cud have answer every single question lashed at you wen u were a HO..
I think you should go back and read all my postings. No where did I point fingers at Russian graduates! What I have been saying all this while was that a good standard of entry qualification is important in producing good doctors!! Unfortunately, most of the poor entry qualification students are from Russia and now increasingly from Egypt and local private universities.
It is a generalisation but unfortunately, the report from the ground still says that Russian and Indonesian grads are the worst at this point of time. It is likely due to poor quality of students that are taken into the universities. As for Russia, there are good and bad unis. I can only say that MMC good but can’t say the same of others.
BTW, if a graduate don’t even know how to take blood pressure, history and to do physical examination, what more coming to a diagnosis, are they fit to graduate ?? Some don’t even know what is hypoglycaemia!! These are the type of doctors we are seeing nowadays!
Can I work as a houseman in Singapore and become a MO there as soon as I finish my degree in UM? Or is it compulsory for me to stay in Malaysia? What are the pros and cons? Thank you.
If you have taken JPA scholarship then you need to work in Malaysia. If not you can work as a houseman in Singapore and then go on to work as a MO. Singapore has introduced residency system which means you can get into speciality training immediately after housemanship. However, if you are planning for surgical training, Malaysia is better in terms of hands on training. The pathway is obviously smoother in Singapore compared to Malaysia but that does not make you a better doctor!
Thank you for the advise, Dr Pagalavan. But doctor, may i know what is the definition of “a better doctor”? Is it very keen to learn new medical knowledge and have the passion the help others or is it just the ability to cure patients?
Thank you for the advise, Dr Pagalavan. But doctor, may i know what is the definition of “a better doctor”? (I mean your definition) Is it very keen to learn new medical knowledge and have the passion and heart to help others or is it purely just the ability to cure patients? Tq.
To be a good doctor you need good communication skills, passion and heart to help others, be very patient and the ability to diagnose and manage patients accordingly. It is a package. I have seen doctors who are very good theoretically and can memorise the whole book but can’t even diagnose a case, what more to treat accordingly. In singapore, you can become a surgeon or physician faster but it does not make you a good doctor when you can’t even make a proper diagnosis clinically. A lot of the time they depend on investigations. I remeber when I was in Singapore General Hospitalo for 2 years, a consultant was looking at a CXR and could not even diagnose TB when I could easily diagnose it one mile away. Same goes to their surgical specialities, most OGDS for bleeding cases are done by consultants and not even by registras. You may get a chance probably by the end of your registra training. To be a good doctor , you still need to be good in curing or treating patients.
So, Dr Pagalavan, so in your opinion, doing HO clinical training in Singapore is not as good in Malaysia?
Yes. In Malaysia, if you are not lazy and really interested in learning, the opportunities are much better than singapore.
Thanks doctor. Then is it advisable for me to go to Singapore as MO to continue my speciality training and postgraduate after my 2 years HO & 2 years MO in Malaysia so that I can get a more widely recognised master’s degree rather than Malaysia’s UM & UKM master’s degree programme which is recognised only by Malaysia and some other Middle east country?
Depends on which speciality. Singapore now provides residency system with Americal board certifications after completion.
Thank you doctor, for all the advise. Really appreciate!
hi doc,
i just completed my a levels and currently waiting for my results.i’m interested to study mbbs in monash malaysia.what do you think about the university?i would like to know whether after completing housemanship in malaysia,can i work in private hospitals here?or do i have to complete the 3 year compulsory government service?can u also recommend some good private medical universities in malaysia?
One good thing about Monash Malaysia is that it is recognised in Australia and N.Zealand and the curiculum/exams are the same. However, they do lack clinical lecturers and the facilities in JB is horrible. recently, they have been warned by Monash Australia to rectify these facility issue as soon as possible. Next year will be the reaccreditation process for Australian Medical Council. I am not sure whether Monash Malaysia will be accreditated by AMC. If they loose the recognistion, then you can work only in Malaysia. BTW Singapore still do not recognised Monash Malaysia.
You need to complete 4 years of compulsory service( 2 years of HOusemanship and 2 years MO) with the governemnt before leaving the service. BTW by the time you graduate, 2017, there may not even be enough job for graduates. Doctors may end up jobless.
I am not sure what is your intention in joining private hospital? The only doctors who join private hospitals are consultants. Medical officers only takes care the emergency department. Private hospitals in Malaysia do not function as a training centre.
As for private medical schools, I will not label any of the colleges as good!
thanks doctor for the info.then,can u suggest some good universities where i can do my mbbs?how about medical colleges in india?like manipal university in india?madras medical college?
Try to choose a medical college which is recognised by GMC and Singapore. At least when you can’t get a job in Malaysia, you can work elsewhere.
Hello doc. I would like to ask about the new Perdana University-Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland School of Medicine. It offers a five-year programme based on a conventional curriculum, in collaboration with the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI) but will be fully conducted Perdana University, Malaysia. They claim that students graduating from PU-RCSI are conferred with the primary medical degrees of the National University of Ireland (NUI), Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery and Bachelor in the Art of Obstetrics (MB,BCH,BAO). They are also awarded the historical licentiates of the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland, and the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland and SI. The degrees are recognized by the Irish Medical Council, the Malaysian Medical Council and other regulatory bodies throughout the world. The degrees allow the holder to pursue postgraduate training worldwide. But I would like to ask if it is recognised by Singapore since Singapore recognise medical degree from NUI. Or will it be similar to Monash Malaysia, where it is not recognised by singapore? Thank you.
the fate will be the same as Monash. It will not be recognised by Singapore and other countries. Penang Medical College do offer the same degree and till today it is not recognised by Singapore. It will only be recognised by MMC and Irish Medical Council and nothing more than that!
Dear Sir,
Having just graduated from a local private medical school, it seems to me that grabbing opportunities to fulfill a medical goal is thoroughly important. My question is, if I am interested to be posted into the medical faculty as an medical officer after completing housemanship, what are the ways that I can take to guarantee myself a place? Would doing MRCP part 1 be of help?
Which medical faculty? Public medical schools like UKM, UM and USM have their own teaching hospitals which do take MOs. You can apply to joint them but will need to resign from MOH. Private medical schools should not be taking MOs as their lecturers. Furthermore, you need to do 4 years compulsory service after graduation
Dear Sir,
I am interested in being in the internal medicine faculty as a medical officer once I finish my housemanship with an intention of being a physician in the future.. How is it possible? Will doing part 1 of MRCP improve my chances.
You need to apply to the universities such as UMMC, HUKM or HUSM. Having MRCP Part 1 will benefit.
Thank you doc. So, I would like to ask which local public university is the best in Malaysia? UM or UKM or some other university or they are all quite good? Better than local private university as well?
UM/UKM and USm are all good as they are established but compared to 10 years ago, their quality is also dropping. Better than private I guess.
Good day dr, i m a final yr medical student frm local private uni who is keen in internal medicine and emergency medicine. from your blog, i have enlighten about MRCP, however there are not much about emergency medicine. Could u tel me how to become an emergency physician?
and where is better for post grad training for internal medcine and emergency medcine among UK, US, AUS, Singapore and Malaysia?
i wish to research more about each pathway b4 graduating. thank you.
In Malaysia, the only way to become an emergency physician is by Master’s programme. Difficult to get a place for training in UK, US and Australia ( furthermore your degree need to be recognised here). Singapore is a better option as well as Malaysia. But in Malaysia, training sucks as there are no proper supervision.
thank you, appreciate your time Dr. can i ask, is MRCP necessary to be a emergency physician? if i take MRCP can i still subspecialised into emergency medicine?
because to get into Singapore is another problem, as my degree is not recognised, MRCP seems to be the only way.
Not necessary but at the moment the only way to do emergency medicine is via local Master’s in Emergency Medicine.
Dear Sir,
Appreciate your time and effort.
Thank you very much. Before I end, any words of wisdom for housemen who are about to begin their training?
From,
Hare Randall
work hard and learn as much as you can. be humble!
Dear Dr. Paga, I have came across Specialty Certificate which can be taken after completing the 3 parts of MRCP. Upon passing the the Speciality Certificate the candidate will be granted the postnominal MRCP(UK) (Specialty). So is this consider as subspecialisation? What is the difference with the subspecialty training by MOH? Hope to hear from you. Thanks
In the UK, the Specialty Certificate is ONE of the requirements of getting the Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT), which is what really matters. The postnominal alone does not mean you have completed specialist training, although most Malaysians like to call themselves specialists immediately after getting the MRCP.
Is the MOH recognise the Specialty Certificate Examination? If not will i get a higher chance to a subspecialty training post from MOH? Let’s say i’m interested in cardiology and want to apply for a training post from MOH in cardiology. How is my chance stand if my postnominal is MRCP(UK)(Cardiology) compared to only MRCP(UK)?
Thanks for your earlier response.
No.
No
No added advantage
It is not recognised as a subspeciality degree in Malaysia. In UK, you need to undergo certain amount of training before sitting for this exam.
Thanks. Please continue writing regarding the healthcare in malaysia
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Thanks for maintaining such a wonderful website. I am a endocrinologist in Malaysia and have MD from a local university in Malaysia. Underwent MRCP and also 3 years of subspecialty training domestically. During working, I am trying to always improve myself in the latest knowledge. With that, I had obtained part of the CCT by doing the theory part of the MRCP subspecialty theory exam in online in Malaysia. Having passed that and granted a postnominal Cert RCP (Endocrinology and Diabetes) which is part of the MRCP (UK) in Diabetes and Endocrinology. Which means I need to have further training in UK centers to complete my subspecialty training. But UK is too far away. And thus, I am looking towards Australia. But, when I go into their websites ie the Australia Medical Council, RACP sites there are just too many rules and regulations to do just further training in endocrine and diabetes. Does Australia recognised and allow me to enter their advanced training programme in Diabetes and Endocinology with my qualifications? After further training, I do intend to be back in Malaysia to serve the people especially in East Malaysia.
Frankly I think there is no point doing the MRCP sub exams like what you did. There is no way you are going to get into the CCT without going to UK. Australia only recognises a full completed CCT from UK. It also do not recognise MRCP as a speciality exam. If you want to work in Australia, you need to apply as a foreign trained specialist via the respective colleges which will then decide what you can do. If not, you need to sit for the AMC exam. Thus UK is the only way to complete your CCT.
There is a small problem of getting visa clearence into training post. Unless the rules have changed again, the UKBA specifically put a condition on your visa so that you cannot apply for a training post. The purpose was basically to prevent the influx of large numbers of doctors from India and Pakistan to take up the training posts in the UK. You can work as a doctor if you have PLAB and GMC registration, but your jobs are only limited to staff grade posts, which is not recognised as part of your CCT training. It is a funny system. You might be doing the exact same things as the other registrars in your team but their training is recognised because they have a training post, whereas yours will not be recognised. The only exeption is if your primary medical degree is from the UK and you have completed both FY1 and FY2 programs recognised by the GMC, that also at best you will be placed on the reserve list. So basically you have pretty much no chance of training to be a consultant in the UK.
Dr.,
Out of curiosity, would former JPA scholars, who are now serving their bond, be given a priority in terms of Masters and specialty training by the governing body?
If say, one were to opt out after practising for 6 years out of the 10 years bond in the government hospital, does he or she need to pay the full compensation or only 6/10 of the bond?
Thank you for the information.
Cheers.
Hi doctor,
I’m a prospective medical student of UKM,
I want to be a doctor,a cardiologist especially. It’s due to the cardiac problem i have in my family and many of my dearest including my dad and my nanny were dead of cardiac infarction. I can deeply understand the feel of the family members of cardio-disease patients.
I got the study award from Kuok Foundation for half-grant half-loan as well JPA sponsorship for ‘penajaan pelajar cemerlang STPM 2010’. Which scholarship is ideal for me if i want to be cardiologist in IJN in future? any suggestion?
Thank you for the kindness and my apologise for my poor english command.
First of all, you should only think of what you want to become after you complete your housemanship, many things will change. Taking the grant from Kuok will give you better option in terms of where you want to go. With UKM degree , you can even go to Singapore. BUT taking JPA means you are bonded 10 years with the government. IJN is not a government body and thus you can’t work there after your MRCP since you are bonded. You need to train as cardiologist in MOH hospitals.
BTW , talking about job security in the future JPA is better, By the time you graduate in 2016, it might be difficult to even get a job.
hi doctor,
my brother is planning to study medicine in Malaysia next year. Then, he want to become a specialist in Cardiothoracic Surgeon. What are the pathway he needs to take reach his goal ? Is the Malaysia undergraduate degree eligible to apply for master programme in other country like UK and US ?
If you have a Malaysian degree, you have to sit the PLAB exam to be eligible to work in the UK, or the USMLE to work in the US. The reality is though that you will not be able to do a postgrad in Cardiothoracic surgery in those countries with a Malaysian degree. It is a popular specialty (as are most surgical specialties) with a relatively small intake, and their local residents will be given preference.
So it means that a malaysia degree is very unlikely to be able to get into any oversea master programme. Is that right ?
First of all, I think you should not decide what you want to do before even completing your hosemanship. Doing something is different than what you see on TV. Working life is totally different. I had many friends who wanted to become Cardiothoracic surgeon but ended up doing something else, some even resigning.
Partway: HO 2 years, MO 2-3 years, Master’s in Surgery 4 years , 1 year gazettement then 4 years of Cardiothoracic training. total 13 years if you get verything in first try! Remember, even after the 4 years cardiothoracic training, it does not make you competent enough.
All Malaysian MBBS degrees (even the so called John Hopkins crab!) are NOT recognised anywhere else, Only UKM and UM degree(main campus) is recognised in Singapore. To work in UK , you need to sit for PLAB entry exam and US , USMLE, both of which does not guarantee a post.
thanks Pagalavan and Nav for replying so fast.
If only limited budget is available, which local uni would you recommend to get the first degree? Preferably less than Rm300K
i would not recommend any! the best would be Monash which is still recognised in Australia/NZ or IMU. Twinning programme will be better but more expensive.
Thank you Dr for your advice,
I cant presume that i will go on to be cardiologist in future since I’m not yet in the medical field,so i can’t say that that’s is what i really want,so i only can assume that i will do cardiology in order to decide which scholarship to take.
I was thinking of doing HO in Singapore,but after reading so many info these days,i found that doing HO in Singapore means making a faster way to specialist which has less experience in running even a simple procedure,am i right? So i want to be a skillful surgeon/any specialist but not the title of specialist.
BTW,I’m not so clear about MRCP n MRCS,am i able to be,a surgeon,e.g.:heart surgeon or general surgeon after MRCP or it must be MRCS before starting the specialist practice term? I heard that master programs of UM UKM as well USM do not recognized world widely,therefore,besides UK degree,any other way to be a surgeon(again,assume that my path is to Surgery posting)
In the case of the oversupplying medical doctor into the field,
when i graduate,is that gonna deplete my chance of learning during HO? since that even now there is 40 HO per ward,i cant imagine what would be in 2016 upon my graduation. Is that doing HO-ship in Sabah Sarawak gonna be better because many people not willing to go there so there will be better chance in learning?
I’m thinking of finishing my HO-ship n MO for 4 years then since i have the most most most most basics skill then only decide whether going to SG for specialty studies so that i won’t compete with so many medical students here to have the specialist practice by limited number of senior specialists,is that a correct mindset? (Correct me sir if I’m wrong,I’m still young so needed opinion and experience talk) By then,is that possible to go SG for master studies then come back to work? (In pay SG sure better but in learning part i guess my home country still much more better because we have more different cases since our number of population is greater,right?)
So,in this case, KUOK Foundation award would be more ideal but risky compare to JPA?
Thank you doctor for your kindness,my apologize again in my poor english command.
I think you are confused between a cardiologist and cardiothoracic surgeon! MRCP is to become a physician. The only way to become a surgeon in Malaysia is via the Master’s programme. MRCS is not recognised as a postgraduate surgical degree.Of course having MRCS will get you a better chance to get into Master’s programme.
Yes, you are right that HOs use to get better training/exposure in Malaysia compared to Singapore but that scenario is changing due to the glut. Sabah Sarawak may be a better option but trust me, it will soon get saturated as well.
You can decide what and how you want to do your speciality once you start working! No point thinking about it now as many things may change along the way.
It is a must to obtain MRCP(UK) before getting into the master’s in surgery ?
MRCP is to become a physician, not surgeon.
What is the different between Internal Medicine specialist and surgeon specialist ? can a doctor become both of them?
I think you should talk to a doctor. Internal medicine and surgeons are 2 different field!! You can’t be both!
You can’t train to be both at the same time. There is nothing to stop you doing one specialty and then moving to another, but you would’ve wasted 5 years of your since it’s not practical to practice both at the same time.
A specialist in internal medicine diagnoses and treats conditions like asthma, heart attack, stroke, pneumonia, other infectious diseases (hepatitis, malaria, AIDS, etc), diabetes, kidney failure and so on. Very rarely do they do any procedures.
A surgeon operates on people. They put screws into bones, join blood vessels together, take out pieces of your intestine, amputate your toes when they are dying/dead, put implants in your breast, replace your joints, remove diseased organs (e.g. heart, lungs, kidney, liver) and put second-hand ones in, and so on. Very rarely do they practice any medicine 🙂
Dear sir,
Thanks for the enlightening article about the current postgrad system in Malaysia.
Looks like doing MRCP and migrate to Singapore (to do surgical base course) is the best solution for those who want to stay near to Malaysia……..haiz……………
To those who want to do medicine…..please SERIOUSLY think twice before you apply…. SERIOUSLY……..
Sir can you make an article for those who want to pursue their career in UK/US/Canada/Austrialia or the Commonwealth country? and their future postgrad future in that country…..?
Also can you comment about the private university which offer postgrad program? IMU has a MSc in Public Health, UCSI has MSc in (Anti-Aging, Regenerative Medicine and Medical Aesthetic)……etc
Thank you.
MRCP is to become a physician. For surgeon, you need to do MRCS before going to singapore.
Msc degrees are not clinical based post graduate degrees. They are research based degrees. As far as I know, they are not recognised as a postgraduate degree in Malaysia.
Understood that MRCP is for physician, but it is the only diploma which allow us to be recognize in M’sia as specialist as mention by above, hence if having MRCP while training in singapore to apply the dual MMed & MRCS would mean one while able to be a physician in M’sia and a surgeon in S’pore (hence applying for FRCS) – but that will take alot of time……but it is a long life learning anyway…….i’m interested in private sector…. why serve the government if they treat us badly??? with their stupid quota in the local master program…..which is VERY true (according to former local prof.), with their stupid pay and system…….haiz……..plus people which nowadays have no respect to doctors as it was used to be? risk of getting sued by patient is increasing…SERIOUSLY.
For those who is self-sponsored student (i myself), i’m SURE they will not stay long in the government as they have HUGE loan to pay………….
Yes we learn alot in government hospital but end of the day, we have our own burden to solve………with current economy uncertainty……i seriously doubt whether M’sia will be a good place to practice medicine in future…..
I pray that the local private university will offer post-grad course in future as many private medical school been arise recently…..hopefully this will able to ensure the quality of post-grad does not decline…..since it is private which i hope will be managed properly since it is driven by monetary and competitive reason.
MRCP is to become an Internal medicine Specialist. MRCS is an entry exam to surgical training. You can do both but you must be crazy to do that! They are not easy exams. Both MRCP and MRCS only makes you a registra in Singapore and not a specialist. You still need to complete a proper specialist training in Singapore.
About private sector, don’t assume there is a lot of money there anymore. The market is getting saturated and the income of each private doctor is declining every day. Of course you may still see the establish old guys doing well but those days are gone. The new ones are struggling. Just recently an O&G specialist resigned from an established private hospital as he was not even earning more than 10K per month over the last 8 months!! The more private hospital that appear the more the income of each doctor will reduce. Remember, private hospitals DO NOT pay you a salary. You are considered self employed.
You will be sued as a doctor no matter where you practise medicine! When I was in Singapore, there use to be a saying that we are practising CBM and not EBM. CBM: cover backside medicine.
Taking huge loan to do medicine is a BIG mistake!! I have been saying that right from the begining. It will take a life time to settle this loan and don’t forget the car loan and house loan that comes along the way!
Forget about local private colleges coming up with Master’s programme! They don’t even have enough lecturers for undergraduate teaching, what more post graduate! Even our public universities are struggling to accomodate the numbers!
What Dr Paga said is logical, No one will work towards become a surgeon and physician as well in this era. It is simply too difficult and it is not easy.
And yes the pay of private doctors are not as luxurious as it seems to be anymore. But it is still more lucrative compared to being in government. But brayn do you know that being in private you are all alone and you do all the work yourself. There aren’t any MOs to help you, and if your patient wants to see you in the middle of night, it does not matter where you are, you better be there fast, otherwise they will demand a change of doctor.
Dear Dr,
My son is studying in an Australian University (Group of 8). If he could not do his internship in Australia (due to Australia’s new internship policy) but in Malaysia, Would like to know:
a) What is his pathway to register with the AMC upon graduation?
b) Does he need to sit for any test to apply for his registration with AMC upon completing his internship in Malaysia?
c) Can he work in Australia without sitting for any test?
d) Can he apply to work in Singapore if his registration is with Malaysian MOH but not AMC Australia? (He is studying in an Australia university recognized by Singapore)
Thanks.
Wanly
a) like any other australian graduate. Register for provisional membership with AHRPA.
b) YES. This is _the_ reason why you do not want to return to malaysia for internship. If you do, then you’ll have to sit for the AMC exam, which includes both exams and clinical skills tests on real patients. It is very tough and the pass rate is low.
– build up CV.
– apply everywhere (ie. Dont be picky) including interstate.
– be prepared to go far / or to rural locations for internship (it’s only a year and you can apply elsewhere after that)
c) If he did his internship in australia, yes. Otherwise, no.
d) Apply to singapore directly to be safe. Do internship there instead. Better working hours, better supervision, better pay, and reasonably close to home.
Since you are graduating from Australia(hopefuly self sponsored), try your best to get a housemanship post in Australia. You can try least popular areas and not major towns.
Since your degree is recognised by AMC, you don’t need to sit for the AMC exam BUT they may not recognise your housemanship in Malaysia and they may stil need you to do housemanship in Australia before receiving your full registration.
Can
If Singapore Medical Council recognises the degree, yes he can work in Singapore.
hello sir my name is abhiman . and i am from india i have completed my DCH from india last month and planning to go for MRCP IRELAND next yr . i just want to know what al help you could provide me regarding the preperation like recommended books , online courses … are these same as MRCPCH (UK)
.
I ALSO WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE FUTURE PROSPECTS IF I CLEAR MY BOTH PART CAN I PURSUE MY DEGREE IN IRELAND LIKE UK AND STUDY AHEAD …
.
i will be hihly obliged if u just give few mins to the letter and reply to me regarding this manner as i cant find any1 who could help me out .. u are the last ray of hope for me
thank you
You can search for recommended books in the internet or medical book shops. Any book which prepares for MRCP is ok. There is no guarantee that you will get a post in Ireland or UK even after you pass MRCP. Immigration law applies.
Dear Dr Pagalavan, Im currently 3rd year med stu in UK uni. As far as I know, the surgical training post in UK is decreasing every year. From your previous post, I knew that MRCS is not recognized in Malaysia. Unless we pass the exit exam in UK by finishing the training totally here in UK. I would like to know if I passed my MRCS in UK and go to Singapore, do I have to start the surgical training in Singapore from the begining? And somemore Singapore is changed their system to Residency System. Does that mean I have to start surgical residency training from begining even with my MRCS from UK? Whats your opinion on this?
MRCS is not speciality training. MRCS allows you ENTRY into surgical specialty training in the UK. Singapore will probably give you an MO job but that doesn’t mean you are automatically in their training programme. I do not know where your previous experience fits in to their residency programme, but there is a possibility they make you start from the beginning (unless your prior experience is considered equivalent by them)
Even if you have MRCS, there is no guarantee that you will get a training post immediately. You may need to work as a MO for atleast 1 year before getting a place. I heard that the residency system is in total mess at this point of time due to the transition from UK based to US based system.
Thx for the reply. Say if I have got my MRCS in UK and practice in Singapore Residency Programme from beginning. Can I sit for FRCS exam in Singapore so that I could go back Malaysia using FRCS and apply for consultant job? Is FRCS an exam or some sort of ending title for whole surgical training?
Dr Pagalavan, what do you think of future career life for surgeon in Malaysia? Do we still in high demand of surgeon or the medical trend is changing more toward primary care which means GP is more needed?
FRCS is a honorary degree that is conferred by the College of Surgeons after you have completed a recognised surgical training programme and you are a consultant in your practising country. It use to be an exam before but not anymore when they introduced MRCS. With the Singapore residency system I am not sure whether the UK colleges will recognised their training. You may get American Board certification after completion of training which is recognised in Malaysia.
Surgeons will still be needed but your income may not be that high in the future.
Unlike the FRCP, the UK Intercollegiate FRCS in its present form is not an honorary degree.
To be awarded an FRCS currently requires the following:
1) successful completion of a recognised training programme with sign-off of competencies by the training programme committee
2) passing of the Intercollegiate FRCS in respective surgical specialty (ie: this is an exit exam)
This leads to award of Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT) and entry to UK GMC Specialist Register. Candidate conferred title of FRCS(Specialty). eg: FRCS(Plast), FRCS(Gen Surg), FRCS(C-Th) etc.
The current FRCS(Specialty) bears no resemblance to the old FRCS which existed up until about 1997 and was replaced with the MRCS/aFRCS. The MRCS/aFRCS (like the old FRCS) is a requirement of entry to specialist surgical training.
The current FRCS(Specialty) title indicates that the surgeon is a fully trained and qualified specialist.
From NSR website Malaysia, I came across this “Have undergone a minimum 3 years of recognized training in Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery in Malaysia and overseas, after having obtained the Fellowship in General Surgery.” , May I know which hospital in Malaysia is recognized for the Reconstructive Surgery? Does that means, as long as I received my FRCS from UK, even though it is not FRCS (plastic reconstructive), I still can register as a Plastic Surgeon in Malaysia after the 3 years of training?
Dr Pagalavan, I have learnt that Cardiothoracic surgeon is no longer in high demand in future due to the fact that many works taken by Cardiologist. May I know which field in Surgery do you think is higher needed in Malaysia/Singapore? What about Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery?
Once you have FRCS, you just need 3 years subspeciality training in plastic surgery in order to be recognised as a plastic surgeon. There are very few plastic surgery training centres in Malaysia: JB, HKL, Penang are the main ones.
Yes, you are right that Cardiothoracic surgery is not in demand in private sector. Each private hospital just need 1 cardiothoracic surgeon. BUT there is still shortage in government sector. Plastic is still in demand but the cost of plastic surgery is too expensive for many people. Some insurance companies do not cover certain plastic surgery cases, especially cosmetic cases.
hi dr.pagalavan,
thanks a lot for ur kind info. really very informatives. sir, i would like to know i’m a MO resigned from gov after completing my compulsory services due to frustration didn’t get master programe. Sir, what will be your advice people like me how to proceed beeing physician. we are really confused. some says do mrcp part 1 &2a then go to singapore to further part 2b and beeing physician. i’ll be very grateful to you if u could guide me in this matter.
thanking you in advance.
Yes, you can do MRCP Part 1 and 2a while working in private sector. However, before sitting for PACES, you need to undergo proper training in a government hospital. You can apply to go back to GH under contract if you like. I have had juniors who did that. I am not sure whether Singapore will accept you without completing the whole MRCP unless your undergraduate degree is recognised in Singapore.
Remember, passing MRCP withour proper clinical training and supervision is of no use.
Dear doctors, do you think plastic surgeon very still high in demand in government hospital says after 15-18years later? I’m just in my 3rd year clinical years now and if I choose surgical this pathway, it could take me 15 years from now on for me to get FRCS (Plast) which recognized by Malaysia. But of course I know that its not easy for me to get the training post both in UK and Malaysia though.
From your post, I could see that Malaysia is following what NHS implementing now, in which they will assign a GP for a certain population in that area. I prefer to work in hospital. Meaning I just hope that I could go back Malaysia with a specialty that still able to get a stable job in government hospital (since you were saying that government doctor nowadays will be on contract basis). I’m from an underdeveloped Sandakan town in Sabah anyway. Basically we are still lacking subspecialist physician and of course not to say plastic surgeon, neurosurgeon, etc etc….
So may I know what plastic surgeon(that you know of) usually doing in government hospital? Is that skin grafting, reconstruction work for trauma/burning/injury for casualty in road traffic accident? (sorry to say this, but i think Malaysia has very high rate of RTA)
Plastic surgery is still in hot demand in government hospitals. The entire state of Johor has only 1 plastic surgeon in gov service. The reason why plastic surgery is not that popular is simply because it is a difficult and delicate surgery and Insurance companies do not cover plastic surgeries. Thus, private market is very samll for plastic surgery.
Dear Frederick,
In which UK university are you reading medicine? I assume from your questions that you already have some idea on the UK pathway to Plastic Surgery training. I recently posted some advice regarding the shortest route to Cardiothoracic specialty training in the UK.
For brevity, I will not repost it, but you can read it here (scroll to the bottom):
https://pagalavan.com/2011/12/15/for-future-doctors-the-change-is-coming/
Simply substitute cardiac surgery for plastics!
You are correct that it will probably take you another 15 years from where you are now to become a certified trained plastic surgeon in the UK. It is a long hard road, but I would not let that put you off if that is what you truly have the passion for.
In addition to the fierce competition for entry to specialist training, you will have to contend with the UK Border Agency issues if you are not an EU citizen or PR. This not insurmountable. At least the system here is based on merit rather than the Masters programme in Malaysia where a variety of other non-transparent factors have arguably more influence.
Reconstructive plastic surgery in Malaysia is a huge potential growth area. There is so much work in congenital defects which currently just gets swept under the rug, complex trauma (RTAs – crazy drivers; industrial accidents – we have rubbish health and safety laws for workers) and burns reconstruction. Also, rehabilitation services aren’t great nor are they that well integrated with the surgical departments. Remember that there is no point doing a complex microsurgical limb salvage if you do not have good physio and occupational therapy services for functional rehabilitation.
The full scope of complex reconstructive surgery can potentially be undertaken but for many reasons (eg: lack of sufficient funding), reconstructive surgery services in Malaysian govt hospitals is still light years behind the UK NHS (even with its current problems!).
So, yes – a potential growth area for someone with the right training who wants to make a difference. Wether the system will be in a position to facilitate such change and evolution is another matter!
If you want to know more about plastic surgery in Malaysia, three people I suggest you to contact:
1) Dr Lim Lay Hooi – current president of MAPACS, based in Penang GH
2) Datuk Dr Ahmad Ridzwan Arshad – Plastics HoD for many years at HKL; beloved and respected mentor to many M’sian trainees
3) Dr Sergius Ajik – he’s based in KK which is close(r) to your home
Best of luck. If you truly want to do it, do not let anyone put you off. If you do not try, you will never get there.
(Apologies for long post)
Dear Jon, million thanks for your reply and details of future potential of plastic surgery. Do you mind if we exchange an email so that I could have somemore friends in this field of medicine? here my email-> frozeliat168@hotmail.com . Just drop by a say Hi if you dont mind. 🙂
Ya, I’m now studying in University of Glasgow. In fact, I’m actually just started a little bit of clinical years. I’m not sure which speciality I’m really into. But so far plastic surgery is a field that I would like to explore more about it, so I have chosen my Student Selective Component in “Consequence of thermal burn ,trauma, reconstructive” . I just hope that I could figure out whether I’m really interested in plastic surgery so that I could start improving my CV as early as possible.
Thanks again for the contact of people pioneer in plastic surgery in Malaysia, I might choose to do my elective with them in my year end elective. Cheers 🙂
hi doc thank u so much for all ur very informative articles…..what do u think about regenerative,anti aging and asthetic medicine?what is d perspect of it in malaysia?
it is not part of medicine. It is known as complimentary medicine. You can become one even without being a doctor. The ministry of health do have guideline on the practise of aesthetic medicine. However, my personel opnion: it is a money making business with no proper evidence based practise. A lot of GPs are going into this to survive.
Hi dr. I’m ending my a levels in June and am inspired to study medicine. I really want to obtain an internship in Australia and continue to work there. As for specialist training inwish to learn before I venture. So rather not think about that now.
Finances is main concern that’s why I was wondering whether
Monash Sunway could be the cheapest path since it’s accredited but reading previous
Comments. Do u think that doing ur mbbs in Clayton Australia is a whole different degree and experience all together? And would it be easier to get internship if I went straight to
oz?
The bleak future for aspiring doctors scares me. But I have had a great deal of learning science and kinda enjoy it wayyy more than any arts. The course sounds interesting and i do have intrerest. Although for some weird reason
I would like to venture in business one day
What do u recommend I should do?
My advise would be for you to do it in Australia and not Monash Sunway. Always remember that AMC accreditation process is a continuos process. Monash Sunway’s accrediation will end in 2012 and they will have to go for another reaccreditaion exercise. No one knows what will happen. Furthermore, doing it in Australia is better if you are going to work in Australia.
You must also understand that Australia will also have more than enough doctors in few years time. Thus, international students will be the first casualty if they do not have enough internship slots. you can also read this: http://www.mumus.org/downloads/20100923%20Internship%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf
BTW, if you are going to venture into business, don’t waste money and time doing medicine!
Hi Jen,
Apart from the fact that you receive your clinical training in an Australian setting rather than a Malaysian one (Johor Bahru) – there’s no difference in the degree or qualification you receive. Of course, the Singapore Medical Council only recognises the degree from Clayton and since you don’t sound very keen on returning to Malaysia, your best bet overseas would be Singapore, The postgraduate prospects for non-residents (i.e. international students) in Australia going forward don’t look very promising.
This is the only solid information on the number of graduates in Australia up to 2014: http://www.saimet.org.au/docs/review_of_internship_in_SA_v4.pdf
Noteworthy excerpts:
The inclusion of graduates of AMC-recognised international medical courses in the non-permanent resident allocation groupings. Examples include some Monash University graduates who have undertaken their entire medical school education in Malaysia yet are recognised in higher priority groupings because their course is AMC accredited. There has been debate as to whether this group should be given the same priority to internship allocation as similar nonpermanent residents who have graduated from courses based in Australia. It could be argued that the latter group would be better acclimatised to Australian conditions and therefore more easily able to assimilate in an Australian hospital setting.
· Partial variance of the above. Some Australian medical schools accept overseas students into later clinical years. Similar arguments to the above might also apply to this group. (*This refers to the IMU students)
The only reason the last two batches from Monash Sunway have been able to secure internships in Australia is because there has always been more internship spots than graduates. Not from 2012 onwards though.
You’ll be doing yourself a great favour by going through the intern allocation process in Australia.
The medical schools in Australia have been intentionally vague when it comes to internship opportunities for international students (understandable since they’re after your money)
Thank you very much for your reply. I really appreciate it. Well, if monash Sunway grads are given the same priority as international students doing it full time in Australia, it does sound like a good choice. I plan to obtain a pr before I proceed to post grad studies so I’ll only be considered international for undergrad.
Although it being bleak, i guess I’m feeling optimistic, as I have relatives in Vic, australia as well.
If I wasn’t offered a place for that year would I be given priority for the following year?
And putting current volume of students aside, wouldnt 6 years from now be sufficient to solve this lack of intern spots issue? Considering they do have a shortage of docs and their ever changing policies
Hi Jen,
I would caution you on assuming it will still be easy to obtain Australian PR as a doctor by the time you graduate. As you probably know, permanent residency in Australia is awarded based on a points system for skilled migrants (unless you have $1,000,000 to invest or something). Doctors with recognised qualifications currently get enough points to qualify because it is still categorised as a vocation with a shortage by the Immigration Dept.
This has only been the case since mid-2004. Prior to that, skilled migrants with a medical degree were given NEGATIVE points on their PR application. Not zero points, they actually minused points from you application! This was because they perceived there to be an oversupply of doctors in Australia. With the increase in doctor numbers (due to the doubling of medical schools since 2001), there will not be a shortage anymore – especially not at intern level. It would be naive of us to think they will not revert to the old system that was in place not very long ago.
I would take Huskie’s advice and apply to enter an Australian medical school directly Apart from Monash, the only other undergrad med schools are Tasmania, Adelaide, Newcastle, UNSW, Bond, JCU and UWS. Keep NZ as an option for your intern/postgrad years if doors to Aus begin to close.
The truth is you cannot receive a PR as a medical graduate; it is only after you have completed your internship and successfully registered with the respective state medical boards that you are granted permanent residency under the skilled migration programme. Again, all international medical students who wished to remain in Australia had been able to do so in the past, BUT the situation in the coming years is unprecedented. There is now a glut of medical graduates and the Commonwealth government has been reluctant to extend the guarantee of internships to international medical students (it is NOT a merit based system).
And no, you will NOT be given priority the following year simply because there will be a new batch of graduates coming through each year.
There has never been a shortage of doctors, only severe maldistribution. Graduating more young doctors will not solve this problem as very few doctors are keen on working in the country (hence the reliance on foreign doctors).
And this is only the tip of the iceberg. How competitive do you reckon the specialty training places will be by the time you graduate?
Dear Dr,
after reading so many post, i got little bit confused… can i go Sg as MO and joint their residency programme after complete 2 yrs HO in msia? or must i complete 2 yrs HO + 2yrs MO then only eligible? if i hv MRCP part 1 can i go Sg after complete 2 yrs HO?
i’m graduating from private U, not Uni recognised by SMC..
please clear my doubt Dr!!
Hi Mike,
My understanding is that if your degree is not recognised by SMC, you can only go there as an MO after completing all parts of your MRCP. Then, you have to apply to get onto their Masters programme to finish your specialty training or apply for residency-based training there. The MRCP is an entrance exam into specialty training, not an exit exam.
If your degree is not recognised by SMC, you can’t work in singapore. Sometimes they may consider MOs of more than 5 years of service for their polyclinics.
You have to complete the entire MRCP before being able to work in Singapore as a MO/Registra
i see, that means i don’t hv to complete the 1.5y gazzettement after MRCP b4 applying to Sg?
Yup, you don’t have to complete the gazzettment but my advise would be for you to complete it before going anywhere. In case you don’t get a specialist training post in sg and wants to come back, you may land up with problems if you have not completed your gazettement.
i see, thank u Dr Paga!!! very grateful for your advice, please keep up your good faith!!!
I have a question. What do MOs do exactly? Lets say they do not take on MRCP or MRCS at all, without any further sub specialty. So they are just going to deal with flues and all all day in the wards? Do they get into surgeries?
There’s always this talk about choosing between MRCP and MRCS, physician or surgeon.
But then again, MO is neither. So what does a MO do anywway?
MOs function at the level above House Officers, answering to Consultants (or sometimes Registrars). They work in a particular specialty for 6 months at time. Taking MRCP/MRCS has nothing to do with functioning as an MO, apart from the fact you take those exams while you’re an MO – your statement “MO is neither” does not make sense.
You are assigned to a particular department (e.g. cardiology, internal medicine, renal, respiratory, thoracic surgery, general surgery, paediatrics, anaesthesia, emergency medicine, psychiatry, etc etc). You do the work expected of you in that department. The work is very different within each specialty. You do the work expected of a junior trainee in that specialty. For example, if you an MO in orthopaedics, you will be expected to deal with simple fractures. As a junior MO, you will be taught (one would hope!) the basics of that specialty and supervise the House Officers.
There are lots more choices, apart from internal medicine or surgery.
By the way, no one with flu gets admitted into a ward (unless you have H1N1 or something).
If you do not do any postgraduate degree then you become chronic MO in whichever department that you are in. Not necessary in general outpatient department only. Some chronic MOs in certain departments can be better than young specialist!
Chronic is a rather morbid description of a MO’s job, isn’t it? Haha.
Dear Dr,
Would like to know is there any difference in the medical training between UK and Australia universities? What is the difference, if any?
Thanks.
Yes, there are differences in the curicullum as they have 2 different healthcare system. Too long to elaborate here.
Btw DR, what exactly are the problems in Monash in their curriculum currently? I’ve always thought there was a Quality Control on their number of students taken, but apparently I was wrong as my friend enrolled there told me there is 130 students in their current 2nd year, while my intake would be 150. What exactly is the point of me studying there exactly again? Its so demeaning.
There is nothing wrong with the curicullum but there are just not enough staff to run the programme for 150 students. They have to increase the number of students to make profit. Since Monash started in 2005, they have not made any profit yet. The target is to break even in 2012. So, Quality control comes 2nd!
What is the point? just to be eligible to work in Australia/N zealand. If you are planning to stay put in Malaysia, then go for cheaper medical schools. The teaching quality will be almost the same!
Whoa RM450k just to work in Oz or NZ? NOt exactly MY ideal spot for working. And the teaching quality is the same? Might as well I go for lower cost medicine programs.
What have happened to Quality education in Msia? Even universities which we pay more only look into profit over the student’s welfare.
You forgot that you are in Bolehland!
All private universities have profit as their bottom line. Cram in as many medical students as possible with as few faculty as possible, and stretch the truth as much as they can in their advertising.
Same with overseas universities in Malaysa. You think Monash/Newcastle/John Hopkins/RCSI all set up shop here to help the Malaysian people? It’s so that they can make extra money to fund their costs back in their home countries.
Great. JUST GREAT. That’s why we need people to wake all these idiots up. My relatives ALWAYS boast about how Monash needs to keep their grades on par with Oz’s bla bla bla. Seriously, what the hell?
Only people who work inside the university knows the real situation. Few parents did complain about Monash as they felt that it is not up to mark for the money they pay.
Hi Dr Paga, I find your site extremely informative and have read through all the comments. Thank you so much for all your work!
I do have a few questions for you. I am a self-sponsored student from a private medical college and will graduate come June 2012. I’m keeping my options opened but I’m currently leaning more towards wanting to do General Surgery. From your posts above, the only way to do surgery will be to get into the Masters program no? However based on the nature of the program, its transparency of selection, its limited spaces (600 per year, correct me if I am wrong), and the fact that it is only recognized in M’sia sort of worries me.
On the other hand, I have the option to do MRCS part 1 and 2, and apply to do MRCS part 3 in Singapore. I will then need to apply for a surgical post in Singapore. How does the latter option fair against the Masters program? (I cannot apply to do my housemanship in Singapore as my undergrad degree is not recognized)
At the end of the day, I don’t mind working in either Singapore or M’Sia. I am however worried about the glut our nation will soon be facing. Which route do you suggest me taking if my main focus was to get a secured post as a surgeon? How long do I need for each route? What are the job prospects for each region?
And lastly, do you mind explaining the differences between the old FRCS and the current FRCS? Will obtaining FRCS from Singapore entitle me to work in M’sia in the future?
Looking forward to hear from you, Doctor. Thank you for taking the time to read my post.
The only way to become a surgeon in Malaysia is via the local Master’s programme. MRCS now has only 2 parts : Part A & B which can be sat in Malaysia. However it is not a specialist degree and you will not be a surgeon after that. However, it gives a better chance for you to be accepted into Master’s. IT also enables you to go to Singapore for further training. Whether you will get a training post or not depends on the availability of post and whether the HOD likes your work. They wil never give you a post directly. You may need to work as a MO for a while. THus, there is no such thing as secured post as a surgeon!
The old FRCS was an exam. After passing both the parts, you will be awarded FRCS. However, the UK colleges changed the system in 2000 to the current format. Currently, FRCS will be given to you after you complete the specialist training(after MRCS) and complete a exit exam. This means that after MRCS , you need to complete 3-5 years of speciality training. None of our hospitals are recognised as a training centre.
Hie dr, I’m currently a med student at IMU, local MBBS programme. I realise that Malaysian degrees ESP private degrees are kinda hopeless since the uni just accept everyone for the money, which is why I worked hard to get JPA to get into overseas uni. But yea, as the world know in Malaysia it’s not always about how smart you are, so I had to do local programme.
The thing is, I always wanted to be a corneal surgeon, and with all this confusing pathways I am confused. Is opthamology considered as a sub specialty of surgery? So if I want to make my dream come true, what should I do after my graduation?
As i’m under local jpa scholarship I’m gonna be bounded for 10 years with government. So very confused, please help. Thanks!
You need to apply for Master’s in Opthalmology after 1 year of MO. After completing 4 years of Master’s, 6 months of gazettement, you need to apply for subspeciality in corneal surgery which is another 3 years training.
The other option is FRCP(Othal) instead of Masters but only some hospitals in Malaysia are recognised training centre.
Hello there dr,i will b completing my HOship in a couple of weeks…with all the problems highlighted and as well as the 1care plan being mooted,i actually intend to leave msia…and work abroad…either singapore or australia the prefered options…the question is this…
1.Wer do i start of at…?if/when i land a job in either country…do i start off as a HO again? (Btw hv checkd that the university i graduated from is recognised in both countries)
2.As far as entrance/board exams go…how do i approach it?i.e AMC…do i continue wrkin here,or head out to find a job?
3.is it advisable to go thru some/any recruitment agencies? Xspecially in applying for a job in australia
4.As far as CVs go…what does 1 write after completion of HOship?do they involve any letters from HODs?or pengarah hospital? And are they allowed to do so?
5.Are there any bodies/boards that we msian profesionals shud register in before we leave
msia?
Thank you in advance…:-)
Btw IMHO,dentistry seems like a good field nwadays…if its a DR in front of ur name that u/ur parents/family want…its a good enuf alternative,with way much less stress,proper workin hours n hey…similar pay…so heads up
Hv a great day peepz
If your uni is recognised in both countries then why are you worried about the AMC exam? Are you sure it’s recognised?
If your degree is not from Aus/NZ/UK/US/Ireland/Canada (and must have done HOship in those countries) then it is not recognised and you have to sit the AMC exam for Australia.
The list of recognised universities for Singapore can be found here: http://www.healthprofessionals.gov.sg/content/dam/hprof/smc/docs/becoming_registered_doctor/Second%20Schedule%20-%20Registrable%20Basic%20Medical%20Qualifications.pdf
If your medical school is not on the Singapore list, then you have to gain entry thru recognised postgrad qualification route – MRCP is the easiest way for this because it’s not really a final specialist qualification (i.e. meant to be an entrance exam into specialist training)
Oh…sorry my bad…it had sumtin in the lines of the avicenna directory? Maybe i gt mixed up then…and no i didnt graduate from any of the places uve mentioned…
But say i get thru the exams…wat/who do i start of as? Equalvnt to HO or MO..?blur o.O
You can apply to sit for the Part 1 of AMC exam in Malaysia while you are working in Malaysia. After passing Part 1, you can try to apply for a job in Australia. Soemtimes they may accept you with condition that you need to pass Part 2 within a stipulated timeframe, usually 2 years. You can’t go and work in Australia other than this pathway or passing the whole AMC exam.
You don’t need a recruitment agency. Please visit AMC website and informations are available there. IN all job applications, you need to give a few referees for your future employer to check your background. You also need “Certificate of Good Standing” from MMC.
Whether they accept your housemanship training here depends on the medical council. Most of the time you need to do housemanship again in Australia.
What happens to those who deferred their HOship here in msia? Who can d referees be?hw bout d mmc den?
Remember, these exams are not cheap and there is also no guarantee that you will get a job after passing the exam. Rather then wasting time, it is better for you do start your housemanship while sitting for these exams. Yes, you can ask one of your lecturer to be your referee. I did become referee for some of the MOnash students who wanted to do housemanship in Australia.
Thank u very much for ur insight…god bless
Hi Dr. Pagalavan,
I’m currently in the 1st year of MBBS in IMU..After reading your article i’m really worry for my future as i just realized it is not as easy as i thought.If i found this website before enrolling to IMU,i will definitely choose to go Monash malaysia. However i also found something interesting from medical board of California,where IMU is listed as one of the recognized university from Malaysia. http://mbc.ca.gov/applicant/schools_recognized.html#m Can you explain to me what does it mean?Am i able to work in California after graduating from IMU local programme?
That means you are allowed to sit for the USMLE, which in turn allows you to work in California. Different states in US have different medical licensing regulations. Some states even allow osteopaths to do a medical internship!
IMU is still a better option over Monash Malaysia – as long as you are transferring overseas.
but i’m doing local programme. That’s why I’m wondering because i thought Malaysia local programme is not recognized by overseas. Thanks for the information.
Yes, it is not recognised overseas except Sri Lanka, I think. In US, every one need to sit for USMLE including their own graduates.
whoa hold it. why would IMU make a better option over Monash? It’s like everyone in IMU is complaining about it, while those who transferred to Monash is like god-ifying Monash.
I’m in Monash 1st year, but still contemplating to continue with medicine or return to UPM for veterinary medicine.
Enlightenment needed please!
In my opinion, graduating from an IMU partner medical school (not the full local programme) is better than a Monash Malaysia degree because you have the clinical experience overseas.
I can tell you from talking to other medical educationists in Australia that they don’t have a very good view of Monash Malaysia graduates. Their view is based on a perception that the quality of teaching is not as good as that in Australia and that Monash Malaysia purely exists as a cash cow for Monash Australia. Whether that perception is true or not, I don’t know – but it’s there.
If you transfer to an overseas medical school via IMU, it’s as if you were always there. Potential employers treat you equally as someone who did all your training there.
All this comparison between the 2 medical schools is based on your potential to do postgrad overseas and how your undergraduate degree opens doors for you. If you plan on staying on in Malaysia, then there’s not much to choose between the 2 really. In my opinion 🙂
Yea, one figured to be exposed to foreign clinical practice in the last 3 years should be as enlightening. However, the schools in IMU ain’t twin but partner, meaning no guarantee on which school you want to get into. It’s such a murky system I’d didn’t wish to get involve into, as its so vaguely orientated. As for Monash, I’m quite aware with the dispute of grad quality comparatively for Msia to that of Aussie’s. I’m only in my 1st yr, I’m no one to judge. But then again, I did apply for both campuses, why was I only offered to Sunway’s if both programs are equally good? Weird stuffs.
Anyhow, I’m giving 12 weeks to sort my education out (again) It’s either human or animal’s health now.
The competition to get into MOnash Australia is tougher than Monash Malaysia. Do you know that the entry qualification is lower for Monash Malaysia? Monash Australia has also reduced their number of Malaysian undergraduates intake after MOnash Malaysia was introduced. Furthermore, sooner or later all medical education in Australia will be “graduate medical schools” like in the US where you need a basic degree before enrolling into medical education. They are phasing out undergraduate medical education.
trying to get into California is very difficult,t his might not be a good example but it’s like trying to get into GHKL for MOship after doing HO in other state.competition is too much.Do you know California is one of the best place in US to live.no snow(American in Cali do not know the winter season in other part of USA, well to those that never venture out) and sunny every day throughout the year.No worry in getting a convertible car in Cali coz the weather is predictable.
Henry,
do you mean that even if i pass the USMLE and get my medical license,i still might not get a job over there?
Yes. Or you may get a crappy job. Same applies to any foreign licensing exam you sit in any country – they are not linked to a job and no one is obligated to give you one.
dear avan tan,
Passing your USMLE is no big deal. It does not guarantee the applicant a residency position in the US. You will have to apply for residency position through the ERAS matching program and compete with thousands of americans. The success rate for international graduates (like you) is around 30%. This is because you are also competing against senior doctors (10 years or more) applying from india, syria, middle eastern countries. Application for residency position costs at least 7-11k usd. From taking your USMLE exams (each part costs 700 usd), getting recommendation letters, writing personal statements, application of ERAS token, application to programs, interview travels (airticket, hotel accomodation, cab fares and food). After spending all of that, the matching success rate is 30%. Meaning that there is a large chance you would be left high and dry.
In order to get into california, your USMLE scores have to be near perfect. Plus, you will need to apply for J1 visa for your residency position. Some hospitals in california do not accept J1 visa, they state on their website that only americans are allowed to apply. Not to forget, as an international graduate, most american hospitals will prefer candidates with prior working/interning experience in the US. Also, each state in the US has its own medical licensing board. California state requires their doctors to apply and have their medical license even before you can start working. The medical license in California costs 1.5k usd. Like Nav mention, California is pretty competitive due to its nice weather. Americans love the sun and beaches. But, california is also one of the highest taxed states in the US. Trust me, working in the US does not make you rich. With taxes, rental, health, car and home insurance, utility bills, food bills and all that, you will only get by with a couple hundred saved per month.
I see that you are in your 1st year in IMU. Your best chance to get to US is through PMS with Jefferson or Canadian Medical Schools. That way, you will not be considered as international medical graduates but as American medical grads and Canadian Medical grads. Canadian students are also allowed to apply for external internship/electives out of the country. This means that you can apply to intern at american hospitals in your 4th year of med school. This would give you an edge for ERAS residency application.
dear elly,
it is really worrying after reading your comment but I’m really appreciate all the given information.Thank you. Actually i do not have much knowledge about the career as doctor,i just know it is tough. I enrolled into IMU MBBS programme (which is the local programme) so i cannot change to PMS. If i want to join the pediatric master’s programme in overseas after graduated from IMU,what should i do? which country is the easiest for me to get into?
Every country have their own postgraduate training system. There is no easy way to do anything in medicine. In every country, the number of post are limited and preference is given to their own citizens. Depending on which country you choose, you need to sit and pass their entrance exam and start from scratch ( if you do get a job).
One of the reason I started this blog is to educated the public and budding doctors about a doctor’s career. You are just one of the example of a students who enters medical college without knowing what is in store for them in the future.
Avan tan,
Unfortunately, i have no answers for you. LIke dr paga said, every country has their own medical board and own set of rules and licensing exams to pass. Passing individual country’s licensing exam does not mean that a job will be guaranteed to you. Passing just allow you to apply to local hospitals for a position. A training position to specialize is very costly to the country. As such, developed countries like UK, US, Australia and NZ only give out training spaces only when all the local students are considered and taken in. In other words, you will not get the competitive spots or urban areas and only be considered for places which the locals don’t want to serve aka the underserved rural areas. Also, there is visa issues and regulations from the EU which prevents hiring of non-EU graduates to work.
You will have to do your homework and decide which country gives you the best chance of getting in. Since you are still in your 1st year, i am sure you can talk to the counsellors and see if are able to switch to PMS. PMS does provide a better chance for you to specialize overseas since your degree will be awarded by the university that you graduated from. I do not have much information about application to UK, Aus or NZ. If you need more information about US pediatric residency, you can ask away. For all i know, US is the shortest pathway to specialize. After medical school, 3 years for pediatric residency and then 3 years for sub-specialization (eg pediatric endocrinology, neonatology, GI, cardiology…).
US residency system is only suitable for US. For Malaysia, UK based system is more suitable.
Pagalavan Letchumanan,
I’m really grateful to find this website and it is really useful. Also,i actually saw that IMU is listed as one of the recognized medical schools in medical board of California. http://mbc.ca.gov/applicant/schools_recognized.html#m (this is the link) so is it better for me to try getting into California as if compared to other countries which do not recognize IMU?
you still need to sit and pass the USMLE exam with no guarantee that you will get a job. I hope you understand that.
good evening sir! i am currently an A Levels student from malaysia who planned to apply for medicine. i have few universities in my mind now but to ensure that i choose a suitable university, i would like to ask for your opinion in which university do you think that will leads me to a better future. As in which degree has a better recognition? Newcastle university Malaysia or Monash Sunway campus?
Sir,
i am currently an A Levels student from malaysia who planned to apply for medicine. i have few universities in my mind now but to ensure that i choose a suitable university, i would like to ask for your opinion in which university do you think that will leads me to a better future. As in which degree has a better recognition? Newcastle university Malaysia or Monash Sunway campus?
MOnash would be preferred. Newcastle has no international recognition yet. Even UK GMC has not given it’s full recognition for Newcastle.
but do i stand a chance to work in singapore if my degree is from newcastle? as singapore recognize uk cert better than australia.
Newcastle Malaysia is NOT recognised in Singapore. Monash Malaysia is also not recognised.
ok. thanks a lot sir for your precious time.
hello sir,
i’m a graduate from manipal uni(india) .. actually i’m planning to do post graduation from australia … but at the same time, i’m also thinking of coming back to malaysia to start housemanship…. but my problem is, i failed to get a non objection certificate from the JPT…. what should i do? what are the options i have? please reply as soon as possible…
thank u….
As far as I know, I don’t think not having a NOC will have any impact when you apply for housemanship as long as it is a recognised degree. Manipal degree is not recognised in Australia and thus you would not be able to go there unless you sit and pass the AMC exams.
ok sir… thanks a lot for spending ur time 2 reply to my msg… but i read from the jabatan pendidikan tinggi website that NOC is a MUST to practice in malaysia…. since i got a C in my spm for physics, i could not apply for it….but i got a very good score for my pre-u results…but still i’m a bit worried what will happpen …
Well, things can change for better or worst. With the glut of doctors now in Malaysia, you may get into trouble.
thanks anyways sir…. probably i will just finish my postgraduation from manipal as i already got a seat there…. if the malaysian medical council still need a NOC if i need 2 practice here, i will just go to other countries which offer me job and settle there…. as the NOC was introduced after i finished my SPM ,fault is not mine and was too late for me 2 opt for other course that time…. i’m realy confused….
The NOC was introduced in 2002, but was not strictly enforced (still isn’t).
Just for your info, postgrad in India is not recognised in Malaysia
thanks for the info sir… i’m not aware of it… but how the indian doctors are offered job here?
Most of them work as MO even if they have Master’s from India. Some can be gazetted as surgeon etc after 5 years of service.
can u giv me some info about writing the entrance exam 2 study in UK? is plab available in msia too?
Hi Dr Pagalavan and fellow contributors! First, I’d like to thank you all for being so informative on your website, it’s a pleasure to read.
my background consists of me being Penang Medical College graduate with the so-called Irish degree. I completed all my internship and subsequent government service (@slavery) in Malaysia, thinking I would gain some experience first before going either back to Ireland or Australia to get a postgraduate degree.
So the time came & I made the decision to try moving to Australia (thinking this Irish degree would get me places). Little did I know, it is not only your primary degree that matters but where you did your horsemanship! #%*€
I fell into the AMC Standard Pathway, sat and passed my AMC MCQ and IELTS. Now comes the problem – I can’t get a job! Most frequently quoted statement in the rejection letters are “…you do not have Similar Healthcare Experience”. How am I going to get the experience if they don’t give me a chance? Do you know of anyway to overcome this? I have tried job agents, hospitals (central and regional, in Almost every state), migration agents and even GPs. No joy.
Second question: seeing as I’ve left the govt service and joined a private hospital, can I sit for the ANZCA Part 1 exams without having to be in UM/UKM/IJN etc? according to their website, there is an option to sit for the part 1 exams prior to entering the training program. Do you know of anyone who has tried this stunt successfully? 😉
Sorry for the long post, all your feedback would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Australia is also slowly shutting it’s doors to international graduates. Thus, what they mean could be that they do not have any post for you! Passing AMC do not guarantee you a job. Try New Zealand!
I think you can sit for anzca Part 1 but you stil need to get into the accrediatetd training system to complete the training. Since you have resigned, it might be difficult to get in again but worth trying.
Dear Gas man,
You have a few options:
1. Keep on trying in Aus. I would target the small regional hospitals to get your foot in the door. No big city hospital will hire you. Pick the smallest hospitals that are accredited for internship.
2. Opt for NZ. The AMC MCQ is recognised there but you have a difficult clinical exam to pass, called the NZREX. Also target smaller hospitals. I know of new grads with RCSI degrees who have managed to secure intern positions here halfway thru the year WITHOUT SITTING EXAMS with the support of a hospital that is short of doctors. I don’t know if the PMC qualification is exactly the same as the RCSI one but probably worth a shot.
3. Apply for internship in Ireland and start over. Once you have that general registration, it is easier to move to NZ or Aus.
4. ANZCA is changing their syllabus next year. You will not be able to sit the exams without an accredited training post from next year onwards. It is very common in Sydney and Melbourne to sit the exams before getting a training post because of the competition. Elsewhere, they tend to sit the exam once they’ve begun training – of course, everyone will have to do this from next year.
Personally, I would think long and hard about options 2 and 3. Good luck.
Just so you know , there are probably a few thousand applicants through the AMC pathway each year, majority of whom are from the Indian subcontinent.And on top of that, there has been a recent surge in interest from doctors living in the British Isles (Scotland and Ireland), probably due to the Eurozone crisis. I hate to say this, but they would almost always pick a white native-speaker of English, ceteris paribus.
Hi doctor, am here to ask a few questions….Since most medical degree from private medical school in malaysia are not recognized elsewhere, will it be possible if we sit for medical exam of other country like USMLE to enable us to practice medicine at certain countries?
USMLE is to practise in US. Yes, you can sit for this exam BUT there is no guarantee that you will get a job after spending thousands to sit for this exam.
Prior to following u posts in u blog, I am always very keen on pursuing a medical degree since I was young and no matter how hard my parent told me that medical profession is a hardcore and demanding career hoping that i might juz give up eventually. Honestly, my parent do not encourage me to read medicine but at last they still prepared the fund needed for my medical education. My dream broken into pieces immediately after reading u blog, now I am starting to fear my future and the future of medical profession in our bolehland. It is very frustrated when u are so passionate and never have to think twice to do something but suddenly u have to think so much about the future of the medical profession.
Ask yourself why you want to do medicine? If it is for real passion and willing to put up with all the frustration that will come along the way, go ahead. The reason I started this blog is to educate the public regarding life as a doctor, responsibilites, problems and future prospect which you will never be told before entering into the field. This is based on my experience with many junior doctors who regretted being a doctor.
Dr Pagal,
Good day. I wish to know more from you as to what is the difference between specialty and subspecialty. Example say gynaecology. As far as I know of O&G can be a subspecialty for the specialty surgery. Does that mean to become a gynaecologist one has to major in specialty surgery, before which one only takes up O&G as subspecialty? And if we can straightaway major in O&G as specialty after the completion of 2 years of MO, then what is the difference with the route described above?
Dear Ernie,
O&G is not a surgical subspecialty. There is some surgery involved but also a fair amount of medicine (which surgeons tend not to do). I do not know of any country where you do O&G after specialising in surgery.
Let me try and describe some specialties and subspecialties below, noting that some countries may have it slightly differently:
Surgery – examples of subs are:
ORL, cardiothoracic, orthopaedics, vascular, plastics, neuro, (even general surgeons usually have an interest in colorectal, breast, etc) and others
Internal Medicine – examples of subs are:
cardiology, haematology, gastroenterology, nephrology, etc
O&G – examples of subs are:
maternal medicine, gynae oncology, etc
Anaesthesia – examples of subs are:
ICU (though branching out on its own now), pain medicine, cardiothoracic, paeds, etc
Paediatric medicine – same as internal medicine
With surgery and internal medicine, most of the subspecs are done via a formal training programme. With many other specialties, you would need to do a fellowship for 1-2 years after completing your general training. There are always exceptions to this.
O&G is certainly not a surgical subspecialty. In fact, most surgeons find the idea of O&G’s calling themselves ‘surgeons’ rather amusing given that they only have the capacity to operate in the pelvis and most have never undergone any formal training in traditional “general surgery”.
All subspecialist surgeons as mentioned by Nav typically undergo some amount of training time in “general surgery” before subspecialist training.
On the subject of terminology, most “general surgeons” in the UK would prefer to see the term retired completely. There are no more “general surgeons” in the true sense; and they prefer to use terms like “colorectal”, “upper GI”, “hepatobiliary” or “breast and endocrine”. ie: most UK surgeons are subspecialists these days.
Ironically, the last true general surgeons are probably plastic surgeons. Wherever on the body from head to toe that there is a soft tissue defect, they have to reconstruct it. So they work closely with just about every other surgical (sub)specialty.
O&G is a specialty by itself. Subspeciality is something that you do further training in the general speciality that you have done. For example if you are a O&G specialist, you can subspecialise in Infertility, feto-maternal, gynae-oncology etc.
Thanks Nav & Dr Pagal.
But one question still, what actually a surgical specialist does while other specialists study surgery too but in a more specific manner into a certain field, or so i think?
Ernie,
I do not understand your question. Are you asking how surgeons are different from other specialists who also perform surgery?
The only other specialties which also perform surgery and aren’t surgical subspecialties are O&G are Ophthalmology. They deal with very specific parts of the body which general surgeons generally avoid. They also have a heavy medical content in their specialty, relevant to those body systems. Even within the surgical subspecialties, some are so different (e.g. orthopaedics and anything else) that there is minimal overlap.
In terms on internal medicine, again, what exactly are you asking? All specialties apply principles of internal medicine in their practice, only the degree of which differs. Internal medicine specialists are exactly that – specialists in their field.
Likewise for internal medicine.
that are what I am trying to ask. so only it is the degree that differentiates is it? Get it. Thanks Nav.
hi dr pagalavan,i wanted to do patho for my masters.if u dont mind can u elobrate regarding doing masters in patho in malaysia s well as overseas.thank you.
I was interested too in pathology. Hope that Dr can describe us the future of pathology in Malaysia….Thank you…
No doubt we need a lot of pathologist but the prospect in private sector is not good. Not many private hospitals have patho labs. Some private labs like Gribbles etc may hire very few pathologist.
Thank you again Dr..Is that the competition for Master in Pathology(Malaysia) very strong like surgery, internal medicine, etc ?
I don’t think so
i live in saudi arabia.do u know of a center here that is recognised by rcog?and what are the steps after part 1 mrcog for those working outside uk
You really should bew directing these questions at the RCOG. Their website is http://www.rcog.org.uk
Please ask MRCOG college
Hi,Dr. Pagalavan
My name is Gan. I have 2 more years to finish my medical school. I personally am interested in Cardiothoracic Surgery. I might sound a little bit rush to ask this question now, but i would be so thankful if you could explain me the procedures and examinations i need to go through in order to become a Cardiothoracic Surgeon. What will be the best way ? Also ,do you know about the competition in this field in Malaysia ? Thank you so much.
* I am glad you created this opportunity for us to know more. Be blessed.
I am not very sure why many medical students or budding medical students keep asking me this questions. There seem to be only 2 specialities they like to ask : cardiothoracic and neurosurgery! In my entire batch of graduates, only 1 became a cardiothoracic surgeon and none in neurosurgery!
The pathway: 2 years of horsemanship, 2 years of MO, 4 years of Master’s in Surgery, 6 months gazettement, 1 year of waiting (minimum), 4 years of Cardiothoracic training. After all these, you still need atleast another 2-5 years of experience before being confident. The above number of years is assuming you get everything on first try.
I’m going to graduate soon and how do I get to work in Singapore as housemanship with my not recognized undergraduate university cert by Singapore? do I have to sit for MRCP before I can work there? I plan to specialise there.
You need to sit and pass the NUS entrance exams. Otherwise you can either get your MRCP or MRCS before applying for a job in Singapore. It does not guarantee you a training post in Singapore
Hi, I am surgeon, from India,finished my masters in 2009, been workin in surgical gastroenterology and minimally invasive surgery for 3 years… I was wondering if u could help me with how to go about if I wanted to apply for anFRACS from Australia . I am willing to relocate too…. Will I ve sit for AMC the entire part?. I ve also passed my MRCS exams… Kindly enlighten me…I ve visited the RaCs site…
I think you need to enquiry from Royal College of Surgeons Australia. FRACS is not an exam but a structured training programmer. Thus you need to undergo training in Australia in order to sit for the exam. To work in Australia, your degree must be recognized. I don’t think any Masters from India is recognized in Australia.
respected sir…i am a freshly graduated MBBS doctor from pakistan. i have completed my MBBS education from a private medical college in Punjab, Pakistan. but the college is affliated to Pakistan Medical and Dental Council. and i have been awarded with graduation degree from University Of Health Sciences (the biggest awarding body of Punjab) . i have also completed my one year housemanship from Pakistan and i have six months working experience in Medicine and Surgery each. Now i am getting married to a Pakistani guy who works in malaysia and i shall be moving to malaysia soon. i intend to join Hospital in Malaysia in internal medicine and work in a hospital that offers post-graduation training for MRCP. please guide me what process i have to undergo to enter Malaysian hospital medicine department and get registered as a doctor when i reach malaysia. thank u
If your degree is NOT recognised in Malaysia, you can’t work in Malaysia. Please check the Malaysian Medical Council website for further info
respected sir…i am a freshly graduated MBBS doctor from pakistan. i have completed my MBBS education from a private medical college in Punjab, Pakistan. but the college is affliated to Pakistan Medical and Dental Council. and i have been awarded with graduation degree from University Of Health Sciences (the biggest awarding body of Punjab) . i have also completed my one year housemanship from Pakistan and i have six months working experience in Medicine and Surgery each. Now i am getting married to a Pakistani guy who works in malaysia and i shall be moving to malaysia soon. i intend to join internal medicine in Malaysia and work in any hospital that offers post-graduation training for MRCP. please guide me what process i have to undergo to enter Malaysian hospital and get registered as a doctor when i reach malaysia. thanku
dr.pagalvan thanx for yr reply. i visited mmc website, they mentioned Punjab University degree is recognized in malaysia.. Punjab University used to award degrees 10 years ago.. unfortunatley, i didnt enter MBBS then. now Punjab University is not the authority, University of Health Sciences has raken over its place.. and my degree is of University of Heakth Sciences.. another thing mmc website says is that if my degree is not recohnized, then they need 3 years working experience… i also dont have it, i have one year experience only.. i told my guy to visit mmc himself,he went n there they said that Malaysian Health Ministry is the main body to decide. my guy went to Health Ministry, they said if any hospital takes me then ok with them. please can u guide me a little.. i m too much new to malaysian systems n policies. i shall be really thankful
as long as your degree is not recognised here, you will not be able to get a job over here. If your degree is recognised and registrable then you need to apply to Ministry of Health to get a post.
Full Registration (with conditions) ( Section 14(3)) : If the basic medical degree was awarded by a NON-recognized institution, applications from Malaysian and non-Malaysian may be considered IF he/she possesses/HAVE POSTGRADUATE medical degrees with not less than THREE years of clinical experience
http://mmc.gov.my/v1/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=95&Itemid=139#Q4
another thing to consider a lot is postgraduate training in Malaysia is NOT recognised by PMDC ( pakistan medical and dental council – PMDC recognises training from very developed countries like UK, US, etc ad you have to pay a lot for training ( 4 year tuition fee ) and NO salary for foreign doctor student and you must also pay living cost ( apartment, meal, books, etc ). What do you do -when you return to Pakistan – with Malaysia postgraduate qualification ?
sir i do not plan to do post-graduation of malaysia because it is not recognized world-wide. i plan to do MRCP n get training for MRCP in any malaysian hospital recommended for MRCP. this way i will haveMRCP degree as post-graduation that is world-wide recognized for sure.
Your basic degree must be recognised in Malaysia
Respected sir,
Hope you are in good state of health. I, a few months back, already wrote here that i m a pakistani, completed my MBBS and also 1 year housemanship from pakistan and i am fully registered with Pakistan Medical n Dental Council. I am now married to a Pakistani guy who lives and works in malaysia and i m in malaysia too now.. i also got my visa sticker till july,2015… now for my medical career in malaysia, i went to MMC to ask procedure for registration or MQE. They didnt ask abt recognition of my university or anything, but only tht if my husband has PR here or not.. since he doesnt have, they straightaway told me they dont hire foreign students for any housemanship, not as medical officer and also not as any postgraduate trainee.. they told me they take specialists only.
Sir, for becoming a specialist, one needs atleast 4-5 years after graduation… i dont have 3 years experience too as i got married after 1 year of housemanship. Does this mean ending of my medical career since i m in malaysia? does this mean i shud leave behind my husband and go to sm other country to get postgraduate training or working experience?
If i try going to academic side, universities require masters or phd degree for lecturership. I m not finding anyway out of this situation. Plz plz help me out. Plz tell me any way to get my place here as i dun want to end up my profession. Being a foreigner isnt a sin, i can get experience only if i work and i can work only if smbdy gives me a chance rather than looking for my husband’s PR. Plz guide me sir 😦
Firstly, welcome to Malaysian bureaucracy !!
Frankly, what MMC told you is true. Foreigners cannot be employed in private sector and thus your only option is to work in government sector. However, due to increasing number of medical graduates in Malaysia since last year, MOH has stopped recruiting foreign doctors as medical officers etc. Thus, even if you get MMC registration, it is unlikely that you will get a job in Malaysia. The only exemption is if you are married to a Malaysian or a PR.
Your other option is to try Singapore.
That also will not work. Singapore only recognise 1 med school in Pakistan, Aga Khan. I know a non-recognised Burmese doctor who used to work as a ‘triaging officer’ in the Emergency Dept of a Singapore hospital. So there may be related jobs available, but certainly not as a registered medical practitioner.
altho news is too sad bt is the fact 😦 u r right sir
Dear XYZ,
I sympathise with you for your current predicament. Unfortunately, what everyone has said is true, only Malaysia citizens/PRs or their spouses are allowed to work as non-specialists. As there is currently a glut of local students, there is no reason why they should allow non-residents to work.
My own reading of the PMDC rules is that they don’t provide registration to non-Pakistanis. So not very different from Malaysia, really.
http://www.pmdc.org.pk/Rulesgoverningundergraduateandpostgraduatest/tabid/191/Default.aspx
Hi Sir,
Pleasure to read your writing. May i ask about career pathway (im sure same Q has been repeated b4, sorry):
– im graduated from Ireland in 2009.
– currently i worked in Ireland as a registra(internal med+gastro). (almost finish my 1sy yr reg).
– and im going to sit mrcpuk PACES in july13.
* would like your advise about those options:
1. Pursue with higher specialist training in ireland(to complete 5-6yrs training with competitive entry) before go back home .
2. Go back home immediately after getting mrcpuk and follow appropriate pathway in order to scpecialised as a gastro/hepatologist (which i dont know the pathway- eould like you to guide)
3. Any other options to specialised as gastro/hepatologist.
Thanks for ur advise
I would suggest to complete your training over there.
If you come back after MRCP, you need to do 18 months gazettement before even applying for gastro subspeciality training. Pls read my post on “step by step approach in subspeciality training ” and “New rules and regulation in subspeciality training”
hi dr…im going to join DFM(diploma in family medicine) conducted bt academy of family physician of malaysia then hopefully proceed with fracgp but i wonder wether this fracgp recognised by mmc n other countries or not.then how tough of this programme?
FRACGP is recognised in Malaysia and in many other countries. It is tough and many need several attempts before passing.
Hi doctor^^
What do you think of Perdana University in term of teaching staff and facilities?I have been offered JPA scholarship to study there,meanwhile I am offered a place for MBBS program in UNIMAS.
Will a degree from a private university make me stand a slimmer chance to get a job in the future as while as the oppurtunity to enter local uni master programme?Will they prefer public uni degree holder over private’s?
Also,Perdana University is yet to be accredited by MMC,as the accreditation will only be given after 3 batches have graduated.And I will be the third batch.So when I graduate,will my degree has already been accredited?If not,can I still continue to do my housemanship?
Thanks for helping =)
Any new university will only be accreditated when the first batch is in final year. If not, you need to sit and pass the MMC exams.
Yes, when the market gets saturated, public uni and gov sponsored students will be given priority.
If I were you, I will choose UNIMAS. I don’t trust Perdana and they have been saying a lot of things which is not true.
Can a consultant from Malysia with Malaysia passport open / rent a consultation room in Singapore to open private specialist practice ?
His qualification : MBBS Malaya, MRCS, and some several certificates
Not that I know of but you can practise in a government/structured institutions as long as you can be registered as a specialist by SMC. Once you become a Singapore PR, you can open up private practise.
Hello sir
I finished my MBBS from India , now am planning to do md in pediatrics in latvia in riga stradins university as latvia is in European Union many countries accept latvian degrees in mutual recognition. After finishing specialisation it will easy for me to clear mrcpch also . For specialist there is no exams in Australia and India . In australian medical council latvia is considered as 3 rd category country and degree from this country can be compared to Australia . So can I practice pediatrics in Australia and India in future??
Hello sir
I finished my MBBS from India , now am planning to do md in pediatrics in latvia in riga stradins university as latvia is in European Union many countries accept latvian degrees in mutual recognition. After finishing specialisation it will easy for me to clear mrcpch also . For specialist there is no exams in Australia and India . In australian medical council latvia is considered as 3 rd category country and degree from this country can be compared to Australia . So can I practice pediatrics in Australia and India in future??
Thank you
The assessment of overseas-trained specialists by the Australian Medical Council is on a case-by-case basis, based largely on advice from the specialty college. Go here: http://www.amc.org.au/index.php/ass/apo/spp
In general, they do not consider qualifications from eastern europe as equivalent. Having the MRCPCh alone is of no use if you do not have your CCST (or whatever it’s called now).
If your qualification is deemed ‘partially comparable’, then you may be allowed to work as a registrar +/- asked to sit their exams. I know of a Malaysian-trained paediatrician (UKM undergrad and postgrad) who was asked to work under supervision as a registrar and then given full recognition after 2 years.
sir can u plz guide me wat can be my future (in malaysia as well as in other countries) if i do masters from UM or UKM??
XYZ,
If Dr Pagal can see your future, I don’t think he will be a doctor. Don’t you think so?
Masters from Malaysia is not recognised elsewhere. Furthermore, you need to pay for your training and you will also have to work as a service MO for the university hospitals.
Dear Sir
I’d like to ask regarding ways of pursuing a postgrad in Emergency Medicine in Malaysia/overseas.I haven’t been able to find any postgrad exams for emergency medicine.I also found it difficult to get much information regarding FRCSEd ( A&E) also MRCSEd (A&E). I’m currently a MO in Sarawak. Your help would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance
As far as I know, the only way to become a emergency specialist is via the local Master’s program.
Dr Paga,what is your take on Perdana University collaboration with RCSI.heard that they may have scrap their plan to build a permanent campus n a training hospital as was promised years ago in their website!.Another thing though,R they getting in enough students year after year or r they scrapping the bottom of the barrel,so to speak !.tq
I think I have written enough about Perdana. Please search for Perdana University under the search icon above. I am not surprised that they have scrapped the idea of building their hospital. I predicted this in 2011 as it is not economical
Tq Dr. Paga
Dr Paga,
Could you entertain me about MRCS? I heard you can do the part 3 in Singapore. And even if you do in msia, you cannot do the exit FRCP (will be stuck) unless you do it the whole thing in HongKong or Singapore. And one more, is it true about the fact that MRCS holder can get exemption for 1 year from Master degree in Msia uni?
MRCS holders do get exemption from Masters Part 1 exams. MRCS is not a postgraduate degree, it is an entrance exam. Unfortunately, no centers in Malaysia is recognised as a training centre for FRCS.
What is the pathway to do MRCS starting from part 1 in malaysia?
Usually it is done by Penang Medical College with Penang GH. Please contact them
or we cant?
And yes, Singapore is an option
Dr,
What other subspecialties can one tale after MRCP besides cardio, gastro and neurologist?
any subspecialty in the field of Internal Medicine
I would like to ask .. I now taking medic in university sultan zainal abidin . Is possible for me to become a specialist .. How is my pathway to become a specialist ??
The answers are all here in this blog. Nothing has changed!
I will study my MBBS at university sultan zainal abidin in future 5 years .. I am quite doubts about the pathway for me to become a specialist . Can u show me a clearer way.. ??
You can start and help yourself by improving your English. The practice of medicine in Malaysia is still in Engish, and CLEAR and ACCURATE communication is very important, and a good command of English is VITAL.
Especially if you are thinking of doing foreign postgraduate exams like MRCP.
Patient’s lives are at stack, if mistakes are made because of language failure.
Just wanted to inform Lau that he/she probably would need to take up some sort of English Language course while studying medicine.
And jk,
Its ‘patient lives’ and not ‘patient’s lives’ and ‘stake’, not ‘stack’.
I am sorry for giving u trouble.. Is Unisza recognize by local ?because Unisza is too new for me… Means, when I complete my houseman, I should take MRCP n complete it successfully within 7 years. After tat 18months for the gazettment. Then I am a specialist ?? Sorry if I am wrong
All the specialist pathway has been written in blog, please read under For Future Doctor page. It is the same for everyone. UNISZA has not produced graduates thus has not been accreditation by MMC.
sir….glad to read oll stuff…thru ur channel .I wud like to ask whch field/branch x better for scope in aust , singp, canada….after graduating mbbs from india. what branch dey easily offer u…n u cn earn well in whch branch? where z d scope….
n what u cn say abt texila amrcn univ….cnducting md prog here in india under who…but nit mci recgnised.
plz guide.
u can also email me…….dr.sachin120@gmail.com.
I will b obliged to u. thnking you.
Generally, degrees from India are not recognised in Canada, Australia or Singapore.
sir….glad to read oll stuff…thru ur channel .I wud like to ask whch field/branch x better for scope in aust , singp, canada….after graduating mbbs from india. what branch dey easily offer u…n u cn earn well in whch branch? where z d scope..n
what d prons to do md from texila amrcn univ cnducting md prig thru india..under eho n nt recgnised stilll by mci for pg. n dere r no still screening for pg iin india.
reply asap. waiting. thnku.
Please do not use SMS language in this forum. You cannot be understood!
Hello sir, peace be upon you. You advised those who want to pursue medicine to take up undergrad course which is internationally recognised. I wander what do you mean by that statement? Which public university offers such course? Also, what do you think about USM medical undergraduate degree? Is it recognised by other countries? I have heard of USM graduates being able to do residency in the US, is it true? Is that even possible?
Anyone can apply to do residency in US if you sit and pass The USMLE exam. BUT it does not mean you will definitely get a post/job.
ONLy UM and UKM is recognised in Singapore. Monash is recognised in Australia. The reason I said so is because, many have intention to migrate or do postgraduate training overseas. With an unrecognized degree, it is much more difficult to do that.
Doc,
What are the critical specialist fields nowadays or what are the critical master studies for a doctor that they can head further..example master of oncology,etc?what is the prospect..
And one more thing..how can a general MO plans to become a public health specialist@doctor?
That depends on what you mean by “prospect”?.
to become public health specialist, you need to do master’s in public heath.
hi doc,
for surgical base training eg. general surgery, ENT, Ophthal, cardiothoracic surgery, plastic surgery .etc. -to be recognised as specialist in Malaysia, (other option after Master Program) do all of this field need to pass MRCS then go for fellowship in specific field?
I don’t understand what you are asking.
Sorry doctor,
I mean, if I want to pursue in surgical base eg. general surgery/ENT/Ophthalmology.. another option than Master Program will be MRCS + fellowship in General Surgery/ENT/Ophthalmology is it?
MRCS does not give you any specialist degree. You still need to do Master’s
Hi doctor, im very interested in dermatology.. and I would like to settle down in australia after my sub specialization. Im thinking of dng mrcp and my diploma in dermato in london.. will it be recgonised in Australia later? thanks
Firstly diploma in dermatology do not make you a dermatologist, even in Malaysia. Both MRCP and diploma is not recognised in Australia.
Thank u.. if after my mrcp I were to do the 18 months gazzettement in malaysia.. wud I be able yo work in singapore as a specialist? I understand mrcp alone doesnt qualify me as a specialist. how about after gazzettement n few years of practising in malaysia?
Nope, you will only be able to get a MO post or if you are lucky, a registra post
Hello Dear Dr,
First of all hats of to you for this enormous blog 🙂 You’re doing a great job Sir. Thank you keep it going.
Now, My question is I am a 2nd year Radiology trainee and after finishing my training program I’d like to work in Malaysia as a Specialist. My basics medical degree and post graduate degree isn’t recognized I knew this from the beginning so I opted for FRCR UK and I have cleared Step 1 anatomy. Now, am I wasting my time on FRCR UK? I looked for NSR and it’s written its a recognized post graduate qualification and if I did not complete CCST UK then 3 years post FRCR UK experience requires otherwise with CCST UK its 1 year experience requires. I’d like to somehow work in SG or Malaysia after finishing my training program.
PS. I have a Malaysian GF so I need to settle down in either Malaysia or SG and she’s not willing to migrate. I might opt for MM2H program in the near future once I know that I’m able to work in Malaysia.
Thank you,
Ampicillin
If your basic qualification is not recognised, you will not be able to be registered to work in Malaysia.
No Sir, My basic medical degree isn’t recognized by MMC.
1) Can I give MQE exam and after that finish all steps of FRCR UK then would I be eligible to gain MMC Specialist registration number?
2) After FRCR UK I work in UK as a registrar for few years and then jump into any training program and earn CCST UK. Will I be eligible to gain MMC Specialist registration number then?
How about SG? Does it recognize FRCR UK? My basic degree isn’t recognized in SG as well as.. Um, Do you recommend any Asian countries where FRCR UK is recognized other than Maldives?
Do you know any alternate way to get into Malaysia for me who’s field is Radiology? I am up for any alternate pathway. I know ABR but I need to prepare for USMLEs and I have lost my basic medical subject knowledge and ABR pathway is going to shut down in near future!
Kindly guide me and share with me if you know anything 🙂
Thank you,
Ampicillin
The problem in Malaysia now is lack of post due to oversupply of doctors. I know few foreign spouses of Malaysian who had passed MQE but unable to get a job as they wanted them to sit and pass the Bahasa paper at SPM level(you can check with your wife what is SPM).
FRCR is recognised in Malaysia and Singapore.
If you read the attachment I gave you, you will know what is required ( see the document attached with the post).
Private hospitals in Malaysia do not employ foreigners unless they can’t find a local despite multiple advertisement ( even then, they need to get approval from MMC).
So, your employment must come from MOH most of the time. Unfortunately, MOH do not have enough post to offer you a post and has also stopped recruiting foreigners.
I would suggest that you complete your FRCR first and try applying to both Malaysia and Singapore. The chances would be better in singapore, I guess.
You may one to read this entry
Basically your basic degree must be recognised. However, if you have more than 5-10 years experience and have a recognised postgraduate degree, you can be considered.
Unfortunately, Malaysia has stopped providing employment for foreigners due to shortage of post unless you are in a speciality which is very much needed.
The rule says that you must get an employment offer before MMC can consider your application.
I would suggest Singapore once you pass FRCR.
Thank you Sir 🙂 It cleared my doubts.
Um, But who’s going to offer a job without having MMC registration number. That’s just plain stupid to keep foreign trained doctors away. The first thing any hospital would ask is whether I have MMC registration number or not! Anyways , I don’t mind working in SG if my qualification is recognized over there 🙂
PS. I know Maldives recognizes FRCR UK without CCST and additional years of experience. My colleage buddies working in Maldives but I wouldn’t want to go to HELL as long as I am able to live nearby my GF.
Anyhow, I want to get into training program after FRCR UK and earn CCST UK even though I know it’s very tough but I believe with will, dedication and determination we can achieve anything.
Thank you very much for your replies Sir 🙂
From,
Ampicillin
exactly, but that is how it works over here. First you must get an employment offer than apply to MMC.
Yes, I just checked SPM level exam. He-he, It’s basically STD 10 level exam in high secondary school we give in our home countries. It’s crazy that they require SPM level exam after clearing so called top medical exams but like you said I accept the fact that each and every country wants to protect their medical graduates 🙂 And it’s fairly acceptable.
Do you know that whether after FRCR UK without CCST UK would I be eligible to get specialist registration or just the MO or registrar level Job?
It is a language requirement. Similar to IELTS.
FRCR without CSST will only be eligible to get MO/registra post in SG
Hi Dr Pagavalan,
Hi, nice to meet you i am a HO, and would like to know more about pathway of becoming an Ophthalmologist in Malaysia. Do enlighten me. Thanks
At the moment : Masters in Opthalmology.
Thanks for the prompt reply. May I know how to apply the master program and how about the gazetment ? How long is the master program for ophthalmology ? Thanks
Please read all the articles in this blog, especially under for future doctors page. All the answers are THERE!
I meant in SG in my above post.
It is normal for registration authorities to require a job offer, before they consider registration and visas. For example, in the Competent Authority Pathway in Australia, you must have a job offer, before you can apply for provisional registration with AHPRA and work visa. And many IMG got jobs that way.
Singapore will allow provisional registration for unrecognised graduates if they have a recognised post graduate like MRCP or MRCS. I am not sure about FRCR.
Finally, the SPM requirement is a language requirement, not a high school requirement. It will be the same as Australia requiring IELTS band 7 for AHPRA registration. If you intend to practice in a country, you will need to be reasonably competent in the language of that country. A top graduate in a say, top Brazilian Med school will not be functional in UK if he is not competent in English.
master in ophthalmology is not the only path.
by doing FRCOpht you can get gazzetted and registered with NSR, just like MRCP
Yes of course. That has been mentioned and commented many times in this blog. This guy should spend more time reading and talking to people than being spoon fed. As a HO i am shocked at the questions that he is asking. Furthermore very few centres in Malaysia are recognised training centres for FRCSOpthal.
so sorry for the ignorance. I will go through those posts and comments.
I have MRCP UK and having 3 years of Cardiology training in Pakistan. Would I be eligible for any interventional Cardiology training in Singapore?
You will be eligible for conditional registration in Singapore, which will allow you to work at entry level Medical Officer level. Whether you can progress will depend on your performance, and getting acceptance into a post graduate training programme, which is highly competitive.
I have mrcp uk 2016 working in medicine department since 7 years in oman
have icu,ccu and cardiology experience > 2 yrs .
would i be eligible for interventional cardiolgy training
Good day Dr,
I want to ask your opinion regarding doing Masters of public health in IMU? From what i gathered, it is recognized by MOH and JPA.
I am currently working as a medical officer,interested in specializing in public health.
https://polldaddy.com/js/rating/rating.js
Dear zhiw,
In UM, we need to complete core courses in epidemiology, biostatistic, occ health, family health, plus a research paper and few other elective courses. If the curriculum in IMU is similar to that offered in public universities, it should be recognized and you shouldn’t have any problem to proceed with your DrPH later on. The only difference is the tuition fees and its duration (minimum 1.5 yrs in IMU). However, please confirm with NSR.
Cheers
You need to check with NSR whether it is a recognised speciality.
Dear Sir,
According to the criteria given by the National Specialist Registrar regarding neurosurgery, a FRCS(neurosurgery) is required. How can I go for FRCS? Do I need MRCS to go for it? How long does it takes to complete FRCS?
https://polldaddy.com/js/rating/rating.js
you can’t do FRCS in Malaysia.Please read my article on neurosurgery.
Dear Sir,
according to your article, to be recognized as specialist, we need to undergo gazettment process. Im sorry but i don’t really understand what is gazettment process actually. can you tell me a little bit details on it. Does this process only apply for those who take uk based exam and training like mrcog mrcp. what about those who take master’s programme , do they need to undergo gazettment process. and can I know how many year graduated medical student need to do their medical official training with government a.k.a compulsory services after completing their housemanship training for 2 years?
https://polldaddy.com/js/rating/rating.js
Having a postgraduate degree does not make you a specialist. You need to undergo supervised training for a certain period of time to be gazetted as specialist. It applies to both masters and MRCP. Compulsory service is 4 years including housemanship
Hello. Can i know what will happen to my full licence if i decide to quit compulsory service?
Your full license will remain but you need exemption from MMC to be able to work elsewhere. Nowadays they do provide exemption after 1 year of MO ship. You need to apply