For Future Doctors: General Misconception of being a doctor PART 1
Over the last few months, many budding doctors have contacted me to ask about the future prospects of doing medicine. Of course I gave them a depressing night after informing them of the current and future prospects of doctors in Malaysia. During these discussions I realise that many of these people do not understand a lot of issues surrounding the field of medicine. Thus I was obliged to write this article to wake up these people from their dream of “guaranteed” life if you were to become a doctor!
1) Guaranteed Job and Good salary/can make money
Many parents still believe that being a doctor guarantee their children’s future. Well, it may be so before but not in another 5-10 years time. You can read about these issues in my MMA articles column. 20 years ago we only had 3 medical schools producing about 400 doctors a year but now we have almost 30 medical schools in the country (the highest per capita population in the world). Last year alone, almost 4000 new doctors started housemanship in Ministry of Health (MOH). The number will further increase in coming years when all the medical schools start to produce their graduates. I believe it will reach a figure of 6000/year by 2015.
This is where issues arise. Even now, the MOH is struggling to place these doctors in various hospitals in the country. We have almost 30-40 houseofficers in each department now not knowing what to do every day. Their training is compromised and they are being released after that without proper training with license to kill! I may sound negative but this is the reality. Even district hospitals are being used to train houseofficers now, starting 2010. As you would have read in the papers recently of parents complaining that their child has been transferred to East Malaysia after completing housemanship, it is a known fact that the shortage of doctors at this point of time is in East Malaysia. As our MOH Director General had said, most doctors will be sent to Sabah and Sarawak from this year on wards.
What’s going to happen in the next few years? Again, my prediction is, there will be surplus of doctors by 2015. There will more bodies than post in MOH by 2015. Doctors most likely will need to queue up to be posted in government service. You will be sent to rural and East Malaysia to serve. Any appeal will not be entertained. If you think this would not happen, please look at the nurses! 5 years ago, the government began to approve numerous nursing colleges due to shortage of nurses. Now, we have surplus of nurses without any jobs. I know of nurses who are currently working in petrol stations! BTW, the MOH is currently considering introducing common entry exams for all medical graduates. Only those who pass this exam will be given housemanship post. This will happen soon.
Furthermore there may be a pay cut for doctors when all the post are filled. One of the allowance known as critical allowance of RM 750 will be removed once all the posts are filled. Critical allowance is never a fixed allowance and is usually reviewed every 3 years. As you know, the pharmacist’s critical allowance is going to be removed if not already.
I had one budding doctor who said that the reason she wanted to do medicine is because it is the only field where you have a guaranteed job and a starting salary of RM 6000. Well, I have talked about guaranteed job issue above but she is definitely wrong in stating that the starting salary. The starting salary of HO has gone up over the last 5 years; no doubt about it (please read my MMA article). However, the starting salary of HO currently is about RM 3500 to about RM4000 after including the on-call allowance. Remember, your salary only increases about RM 70/year. You will only reach a salary of RM 6000 after 7 years of service as a medical officer, when you are promoted to U48 according to current promotional prospect in civil service introduced end of last year! BTW, other than the difference of critical allowance, a doctor’s salary is only RM 200 more than a pharmacist in civil service!
2) Medical degree recognition
If I can’t work in Malaysia, I can go to Singapore or Australia to work, right?
Again, another misconception. Many do not know that medicine is a very peculiar field and cannot be compared to any other profession. In order for you to work in another country, your degree needs to be recognised by the Medical Council of the other country. If it is not recognised, you would not be able to work there. For your information, only UKM and UM degrees are recognised in Singapore.If it is not recognised, you need to sit and pass the qualification exams in the respective country with no guarantee of a job.
Almost all medical degrees from Malaysia are NOT recognised elsewhere. Malaysia Boleh mah! Only Monash University Malaysia’s medical degree is recognised by Australian Medical Council and thus you would be able to work in Australia/New Zealand. Some of the private medical colleges do twinning programmes with external universities from Ireland/UK/India etc. These may be recognised depending on which degree and where you graduate from.
3) Housemanship & Compulsory service
I have mentioned a little about housemanship above. As you know the housemanship has been extended to 2 years since 2008. Even though it is good for your own training but it does prolong your future postgraduate training. After Housemanship you have to undergo another 2 years of compulsory service before you decide to resign for private practise or pursue your postgraduate degree. It is during this compulsory service that you will be posted to anywhere in the country.
Furthermore, housemanship is not an easy posting. Even though the numbers of HOs have increased tremendously over the last 2 years, it is still a very exhausting job. Many have had a mental breakdown during housemanship. I just heard of a houseman who is on psychiatric MC for the last 2 months! It seems she thought that being a doctor is just like sitting in a clinic and seeing cold cases (probably she thought she can become a GP immediately!)
4) Hard work and post graduate training
20-30 years ago, being an MBBS holder itself is good enough. You can easily open a clinic and become a GP and well respected by the community. But things are changing. Even GP practise is a speciality by itself in many countries (Master in Family Medicine/FRACGP etc). Malaysia is also moving towards that. Many patients are demanding and would prefer to see a specialist directly nowadays.
Thus it is important that when you join medicine undergraduate degree, please be prepared to continue your education for another 10 years after graduation! In order for you to complete your postgraduate education, it will easily take another 10 years, assuming you pass all your exams in one try! So, don’t assume your education is only 5 years! MBBS do not mean anything now, in fact it is only considered as a diploma!
Getting into postgraduate training is also becoming increasing difficult. The number of places for Master’s programme is very much limited in local universities. The demand is greater than supply and of course don’ forget the quota system as well! Other than MRCP (UK) – internal medicine, MRCPCH (UK) – paediatric and MRCOG – Obstetric, you have to depend on local master’s programme for your speciality. Thus, you have a very limited option. With such a big number of doctors coming into the market now, I can assure you that getting a place for post graduate education is going to be a major problem in 2-3 years time! Be prepared.
TO BE CONTINUED………………………….
Hi Dr. Pagalavan!
Its refreshing to see this light! I’m a fresh graduate from Ukraine and will be moving into service very soon. Great article you have wrote. It has enlightened me quite a bit.
With the recent rumor i heard, indeed in about 5 years time, there will be a surplus of doctors. I am worried about the post grad programs that is local. Are they recognized overseas at all? I heard that many (if not all) local post grad degrees are not recognized overseas.
reuben
You are absolutely correct. None of our Master’s programme is recognised overseas, even in singapore. It is going to be extremely difficult to get into master’s programme in near future with limited space.
i wanna ask now i’m studying md program in allianze university.i had finished sem 1 but hope to transfer back to aimst university,can i?
Not as far as I know. Most universities don’t accept transfers anymore as their curicullum are different. You may need to start all over even if they accept you.
Hey doctor ,just wanna ask you whether medic in medical university of warsaw poland is good or internationally recognised ?
It is recognised in Malaysia. There is no such thing as internationally recognised anymore.
can u reply me to my email?thanks a lotz^^urgent!!
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Your article really caught my eye when i was browsing through some websites. It is true that The medical profession has been in the limelight these few years. As a 4th year medical student myself, i know the reality that is waiting for me when i start my housemanship in 2 years time.
But another important aspect about the field of medicine is the passion that most students have when they wanted to become a doctor. Its this passion and the love for this field that has brought up many good professional doctors throughout these years. Well i dont deny there are increasing number of doctors in Malaysia but the housemanship years will bring out the best in the best like you. A Consultant Rheumatologist.
Im sure its the passion that drove you to achieve this level and im sure there are many aspiring doctors who want to be jus like you. Increasing competition will bring out the best in the best. Well thats my opinion bout this issue.
Thank you very much Dr pagalavan for the information about the current situation in malaysia
Yes, that’s exactly what I said. If you have passion for medicine and not for money or glory, then go ahead.
But many who do medicine, do it for job security and money. If that is so then you will regret it!
Agree with u doc. I’ve seen most of my friends, they had been forced by their parents even though this field is not in their interest. They just go to medical school to pursue study without having passion with what they will learn. They just wanted the title as doctor and about money n so on. Despite this, my friends that do really have passion in the field of medicine, who really loves to treat patient, which meant that they are passionate person, they didn’t got a place in public university. I don’t know how the university set up the interview, but most of the people who succeed in iv, they don’t like on what they do. They became jealous with their friends who could study in the field that they really loves. I felt pity on them but I hope they can survive and become a good doctor in the future.
https://polldaddy.com/js/rating/rating.js
Dear Gobinath,
I am writing this in 2021. You must have been few years practicing medical in hospital now. I feel inspired reading from you, that of all the hardwork and hardship of becoming a doctor, it is the passion and your ‘why’ is what brought you forward. (i am not one but used to be a wild dream of mine)
Those who become doctors with passion and patient are a gem!
Wishing you all the best and may u get through this and become the best doctor in the specialization you choose to be in! (if you are not already><)
Dr Pagalavan i trully enjoy reading your blog ,even as a 5th year medical student i have to come to realise there many perks and downs that i have not known and heard in this job. Dr i would like to know in your opinion when is the best time to take the MRCP exam?? i have read about the exam , from what i understand the first paper are tested on our basic knowledge we learn on year 1 to 3 of med school, so would it not be easier if we can take the exam right after med school? but are we allowed to do so??.. Dr if its possible , i would love to see you write an article on what are the postgraduate exams recognised in malaysia and how to go about it. this would be really helpfull for student like me who are completely lost what to do after graduating from med school !! thank you ! …
I will write more about postgraduate training soon. Please wait and I will upload in another 1-2 weeks time.
these facts you are talking about kind of scared me…but its a reality I need to take. this current issues about medical studies and doctors profession truly unexpected for me…i never thought that it would come this far.
[…] For Future Doctors: General Misconception of being a doctor PART 1 September 2010 7 comments 5 […]
dear Dr Pagalavan
thank you for the article which give me the info about the current medical situation in malaysia. i am a medicine student in egypt currently second year. could you describe a little bit about housemenship program in malaysia because currently our university requirement was after 6 years of study we need to accomplish 1/2 years of housemen in egypt. most of malaysian students here didnt favour this condition because of certain excuses. so before dealing with our university to demolish the housemen in egypt another additional 1/2 years. i would like to equip myself with the current situation of housemenship in malaysia
thank you..
I have written about housemanship in Malaysia in my other postings under ” For Future Doctors: Housemanship, district postings and postgraduate training” series. Please look under my Education page.
hello doctor i am really interested in this field as i am a spm leaver,I agree with ur article that soon we ll gonna have flood of doctors.But i do also want to know are there any good qualities in the crowded of doctors nowadays?Becoz I always been told that qualityis the matter not quantity.May i have ur opinion doc?thx..
Yes, of course! I have mentioned about it in some of my articles. BUT when there is a glut, everyone will be affected no matter what is your quality. That’s the reason why the government is going to introduce a common entrance exam for all overseas medical graduates soon! If you don’t pass the exam, you will never be able to work as a doctor!
Hello doctor. How would be the future of a pharmacy student? How long it takes to become a lecturer in pharmacy? Thank you.
you can become a lecturer immediately after finishing your pharmacy compulsory service.
doctor, is it after degree or masters? How is the job prospect in coming 5 years?
The job prospect for doctors in 5 years is NOT good! I am talking about basic degree but the opportunity to do master’s will be limited and controlled by quota system.
you should be able to get a lecturer’s job after degree. Rarely pharmacist do Master’s
sorry doctor, i meant the job prospect of a pharmacy lecturer. how would it be?
should be OK
Doctor, i notice that the pharmacist graduate from UK are immediately awarded with a Masters degree. is it bcause they hv very high standard or just a normal practice . they dont even have basic degree but jump straight to Masters degree. i am sorry if i am a bit off track. but will appreciate your reply from an experience doctor.
UK revamped their pharmacy programme around late 1990s. From 3 years they made it 4 years and renamed the programme as Master’s in pharmacy, suppose to be 3 years undergraduate and 1 year post graduate.
Hi Doctor, i’m a science graduate from local uni, due to my interest in medic, i choose to study mbbs in segi later this year, but from what you have written, is it not advisable to continue my mbbs in segi? how important is it having the recognition of mbbs in segi by other country? what are the alternatives for those who have unrecognized mbbs but plan to do their specialist, masters, or even practice overseas…..thank you
I think I had answered your questions in my later articles. Please read all my articles under “For Future Doctors ” series. Segi MBBS degree is not even accreditated by MMC yet, what more overseas!
haha….ok, then i’ll take it as a NO to mbbs segi, it’s quite frustrating when it comes to choosing a place to study in mbbs.
I would suggest Monash if you want a well recognised degree especially in Aus/NZ.
Doctor, can u suggest a place to do my post-graduate studies in pharmacy here in malaysia? thank you.
the best is still public universities like UM/UKM etc
Hi there,
There’s nothing much to argue on the article written, but is it possible for you doctor to provide me the sources of all the figures given on the number of outnumbers doctor in Malaysia ? (as per article above)
Thanks
I am not sure which numbers you are talking about. You can check with MMC for the number of new doctors registering every year. Last year alone there were more than 4000 new doctors registering to work in Malaysia. Please read my MMA article which I wrote 5 years ago(under my MMA page): Future of government doctors: Die another day?, where I had given the number of post and occupancy rate of MOH doctors.
Also remember, we have 33 medical schools now, confirmed by The Star recently. more than half of these medical schools have yet to produce their graduates. So, if you assume each produces 150 students, what will be the total number ? plus the doctors from overseas? definately will reach 7-8000/year.
Finally, the government has confirmed that we will achieve a doctor: population ratio of 1: 400 by 2020, 1: 600 by 2016. That’s the reason they impose a moratorium on new medical schools!!
Hi dr,
I am a JPA 2011 scholar for medic, I have a few question:
1. How do you think about IMU twinning programme?
2. Do you think it is worth to study under JPA scholarship? ( because I know that if I get scholarship for under and postgraduate, I have to serve for 20 yrs, but if I pay on my own, I can start my internship in any country as long as my degree is recognised )
3. I know that local master programme is not recognised elsewhere, then what should I do if I intend to be a surgeon? If I take master programme here does that mean I cannot work in other countries?
Thanks
The IMU PMS programme is not even a twinning program. It’s more like doing a credit transfer to one of the partner medical schools. Your medical degree is conferred by the PMS, not IMU.
This is exactly why the JPA scholarship is a total failure.
Look, if you can afford the fees in an overseas institution (>1 million ringgit), you shouldn’t even qualify for the JPA scholarship.
Wow, you haven’t even started medical school and you’re already thinking about surgery. I suggest you go around the wards and ask about the growing number of MOs frustrated by the lack of training opportunities.
Looks like there is some misunderstanding here, I have to clarify that I am from an average-income family, and honestly, my parents can’t afford the fees in an overseas institution without any help( loan or scholarships ). If I have no better option except for paying on my own maybe I have to get loan for a part of my tuition fees…anyway thanks for your info
1) depends on which university you are twinning with.
2) The only benefir under JPA scholarship currently is that the government must give you a job in order to complete your bonding. If you have the money, better go to an internationally recognised unoversity and try to get a job elsewhere.
3) Yes, Master’s is not recognised elsewhere. The other options is to do everything overseas like UK, US or Australia.
sir, since the Master’s is not recognised, is there any other training we can do in Malaysia and is there anyway that I can work in other country as a specialist such as US? And if I manage to get a seat for the Master’s, is there any compulsory service after the programme? thanks for your reply
You nedd to sit for USLME exams in order to work in USA. All Master’s graduates are bonded for 5-7 years at least after graduating.
dear max,
For US, after graduating as a MBBS, you need to take the USMLE (consist of part 1,2 and 3) which you would have to pay of course. After passing part 1 and 2, you need to submit your application as an IMG (international medical graduate) to the ECFMG board and apply for residency in Surgery. Application through the ECFMG board also requires a large sum of money (~10-30k). After application, if the schools are interested, you will need to fly to the US for interviews. Please note that even though you passed USMLE, residency places are not guaranteed. Note: every year more than 50% of the total IMG applicants cannot get a residency match. IMGs fare slightly better chances in family medicine, internal med and peds.
After 3-4 yrs of residency, you will be considered as a general specialist. Then, you need to apply for sub-specialty which will take another 3-4 years. Surgery in the US is very very competitive. Apart from USMLE scores, some schools require prior internship in the US and medical research background and publications.
Hi Dr
A JPA scholar has a 10-year-bond with JPA after his undergraduate study. Will sitting for an exam such as MRCP add more years to the existing bond?
Thanks!
Tao
MRCP is done at your own expanse and thus you will not be bonded extra. However, starting from 2011, you will be bonded 5 years if you do subspeciality.
Hello doctor, recently I’ve quite a bit of dilemma about whether to do BPharm or MBBS. In your opinion, which will offer a better job prospect as in the salary, working condition and demand in Malaysia as well as other countries?
I now have two choices of University to do my MBBS, which is Segi or Aimst. Will it make any difference when I look for a job if I graduate from Aimst which has already produced more than 10batches of doctors?
The salary and job prospect is not much different between pharmacy and MBBS in government service. Working condition is better for pharmacy.Demand: both getting saturated but atleast as a pharmacist, you can become a lecturer, open shop or work in other countries. Not possible for MBBS as you need to do post grad to become a lecturer and degree need to be recognised in other countries for you to work there.
Segi is new , so can’t comment much. AIMST has produced only 3 batches so far. Average. It does not make any difference where you graduate from as all local degrees are not recognised elsewhere except UM and UKM. Your only option is local job market.
Ic ic, I was told that life as a pharmacist is not as tough as doctors, not only during work, also during studies, is that true?
How to become a lecturer as a pharmacist? So meaning i’ll have to take twinning program? Actually is it that there’s a high possibilities that doctors will be jobless in 5 years time? This only refers to urban area or everywhere else in Malaysia? Is it very difficult to get into postgrad?
I was planning to do pharmacy at Monash. Do u have any comments regarding monash or i should do it at elsewhere? I’m actually planning to work overseas.
Yes.
After graduating you can apply for a lecturer post in any university but you must be keen in teaching and doing research.
Yes, doctors can become jobless. It does not matter urban or rural areas because you cannot practise as a doctor withour completing housemanship.
Yes, it will be very difficult to get postgrad post soon.
If I am not mistaken pharmacy degree from Monash is recognised in Australia and New Zealand. Furthermore, pharmacy is not like medicine where you need recognition by medical council of other countries. Very much easier to get a job elsewhere as long as there are vacant post.
Also, doctor.. Could you recommend some of the unis that are ok for Bpharm?
I cannot afford to do twinning program due to some financial program.
Also, I would like to know, what are the demand for court doctors and forensic scientist? I was told after graduating as doctor, these two are alternatives. And my friend was not convinced by what Doctor has mentioned above. She said the students after our generation do not want to study MBBS anymore, is it true?
She also told me that her friends who graduated said there are loads of work to do as housemen because the seniors does not want to do, which contradicts with what Doctor has said about housemen having nothing to do. Also, is it like almost impossible to get into postgrad or there is a possibility, say 50 percent? If I cannot get into postgrad meaning i’ll have to work in that hospital for the rest of my life or there are alternatives?
Monash should be OK.
Court doctors is very much at it’s infancy in Malaysia. In fact there are not many universities offering this programme. If I am not mistaken, UIA and UKM do offer this course. Their job is mainly to assisst the lawyers in medico-legal issues and for enforcement of laws concerning medical doctors.
You mean forensic pathologist? In Malaysia, forensic pathologist can only work in government hospitals. Don’t get carried away by CSI etc because what you see on TV does not happen here. Here, you will be spending all your time in mortuary. Hardly any scene of the crime visit!
Yes, future generation may not be interested in doing medicine just like in US and UK simply because the litigation rate will be too high for any doctor to practise good medicine. However, when you say future generation , the question is When ????? For me it will be 30-50 years down the line in Malaysia and NOT the next 10 years obviously. However, the rate the number of new doctors are being produced currently, jobless doctors will become a reality in less than 5 years. The MOH is expecting 6000 new doctors this year !! remember almost 50% of the medical schools in Malaysia are yet to produce their graduates. I exect the number to hit 8000-10000 in the next 5 years. The government wil not be able to support this amount of doctors.
It depends on where you practise. If you are a good houseman, you will want to do everything to learn as much as possible. If you are a lazy doctor, you won’t bother doing anything! If you do visit any hospital, please pay attention to these and you will realise that many wil be just sitting and doing nothing and the good ones will be doing everything!
This year, only 800 Master’s post has been allocated. The number will increase to 1000 by 2015. Total number of graduates this year is 6000, up t0 8000-10000 by 2015. Assuming everyone applies for Master’s, the chances for you to get a post is about 10-20% only.
You will remain as chronic MO and you can request to move to other hospitals, klinik kesihatan or resign!
Yay, we’ll finally match Bangladesh in terms of doctors produced!!!
http://www.newstoday.com.bd/index.php?option=details&news_id=22754&date=2011-03-16
Let’s see how well the system is going to turn out…
Bangladesh producing 10 000 doctors for a population of 156 million and we are producing the same number for 27 million!!
To Mun Yee:
Since you’re keen on working overseas and you’re also considering Monash as a choice, I thought you might want to know about the current oversupply of pharmacy graduates in Australia. See, the reality is, most pharmacy students, in Australia at least, are med and dent rejects (and mostly Asian too). Australia, too, has been riding the “healthcare professional shortage” bandwagon for far too long; so what you end up with is a generation of frustrated graduates who feel like they’ve been conned.
I think this article written by a pharmacy student in Australia sums up the situation nicely:
http://www.medinoz.com/2011/07/14/choking-pharmacy-into-submission-ufc-style/
“In a downward spiral it seems, the pharmacy retail industry is losing its grip on the professionalism it once used to own. More and more pharmacists are being paid less and less, job satisfaction appears to be reducing, and jobs are getting harder to come by.”
And why?
“There are now over 16 or 17 pharmacy schools pumping out graduates annually, almost a threefold increase from a decade ago.”
Oh and if you’re still not convinced, have a read through this forum thread:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1514268
So that’s only for Australia or everywhere else?? What about Singapore?
Then can u list some examples of jobs that are needed here in Malaysia as well as overseas? I believe in all fields, students are overwhelming everywhere else.
The reason why I didn’t want to pick MBBS because I’m going to go into just another local private uni. So, there’s a big possibility that I will not have a job in the coming years when i graduate.
Also, I would like to know, what are the demand for court doctors and forensic scientist? I was told after graduating as doctor, these two are alternatives. And my friend was not convinced by what Doctor has mentioned above. She said the students after our generation do not want to study MBBS anymore, is it true?
She also told me that her friends who graduated said there are loads of work to do as housemen because the seniors does not want to do, which contradicts with what Doctor has said about housemen having nothing to do. Also, is it like almost impossible to get into postgrad or there is a possibility, say 50 percent? If I cannot get into postgrad meaning i’ll have to work in that hospital for the rest of my life or there are alternatives?
Well, for starters, Australia is desperately in need of miners, mining engineers and pretty much to do with the mining industry. Remuneration is fairly good, but then again you’d have to take into account the risks that come with such a job.
Hello doctor, recently I’ve quite a bit of dilemma about whether to do BPharm or MBBS. In your opinion, which will offer a better job prospect as in the salary, working condition and demand in Malaysia as well as other countries?
I now have two choices of University to do my MBBS, which is Segi or Aimst. Will it make any difference when I look for a job if I graduate from Aimst which has already produced more than 10batches of doctors?
Doctor,
May i know what’s the difference to do twinning program for pharmacy and not doing it then? Is it that after doing twinning, the certificate will be masters?
Will it affect me when I come out to look for jobs here and other countries?
What about doing it at Taylor’s?
Also, could u explain a bit about what is MRCP and what is it for? Is it like postgrad?
I think you need to take your own initiative and read what has already been written in the blog instead of expecting to be spoon fed with information. MRCP has already been explained many times in detailed. I feel that it is better for you to train and practice in Malaysia since you have the spoon feeding mentality. In fact, you can’t even make up your mind on whether to do MBBS or Bpharm or whatever. If you can’t even make up your mind on that, I suggest you forget about doing MBBS altogether. On top of that, your motivation to do MBBS or Bpharm seems to be socially or financially driven, if that is true, I don’t think you should do MBBS either because you will have hell of a time trying to complete it.
As for HO who says that there are loads of work to do, clearly they do not understand the definition of ‘loads of work’. Every grade of doctors from MO onwards will agree that HO no longer has ‘loads of work’. I suggest you spend a month at night in an emergency department in a teaching hospital, especially on weekend nights to understand what is the meaning of ‘loads of work’. Since you live in PJ, the trauma centre at UMMC would be a very good place to go to.
On looking for jobs, jobs don’t just miraculously land on your laps be it locally or abroad. Even if you have a PhD, you still need to fight it out with others, therefore the process of shortlisting and interviews. So don’t expect somebody to come knocking on your door offering you RM1 million per annum simply because you qualified with a Bpharm, MBBS or whatever.
Regarding working overseas, I don’t know what is your primary intention on working abroad, but life is not all better. By going overseas, you must be prepared to make a lot of sacrifices and be mentally very tough, if not, you will end up struggling, being homesick and ultimately be depressed. I have seen many friends who ended up like that, even when some of them were working in places as close as Singapore. Honestly, I don’t see that it is suitable for you since you appear very much to me as a daddy’s girl. In Malaysia, at least you will still manage a lot of things by virtue of being a citizen. When you go abroad, to start with, you must be able to convince your employers why you deserve that post over their own grads because in order to employ you, they need you to have a visa, which is much of a hassle. Don’t ever think Singapore is always an alternative either. Let me give you some insight. When I finished my MBBS almost 4 years ago, Singhealth was so aggressive in getting their citizens who grad in the UK to return that they run roadshows several times a year and maintained a permanent presence in the UK to facilitate the transfer of their grads back to Singapore. Today, they don’t even bother to contact their own citizens doing MBBS in UK at all, tells you something about their job market being saturated. As for pharmacists, every ward will need a few doctors, but every ward will only need one pharmacist, so don’t even think of finding a job in Singapore with a Bpharm would be a stroll in the park, especially when your Bpharm is not from somewhere highly reputable.
I think you should think carefully what you really like to do as a career and forget about high salaries and things like that. Frankly speaking, if you work hard enough, you will be successful in any profession. On the other hand, if you continue to expect to be spoon fed, even if you have MBBS or Bpharm be it locally or abroad, you will struggle to progress.
Pls read my posting on “step by step approach in doing specialty in medicine” under for future doctors page.
“…if you continue to expect to be spoon fed, even if you have MBBS or Bpharm be it locally or abroad, you will struggle to progress.”
Well said 🙂
No, masters is totally a postgraduate degree. Twinning programme depends on how you do it. Some may graduate from the oversease university and obtain the degree from there. It might be better recognised elsewhere. Taylor’s was good before but not sure about pharmacy
Anaes SHO,
Excuse me! Should I take that as an criticize or an advice?? If you want to talk about spoon feeding, I think you should be telling that to ALMOST all of the students who attend tuition classes for every subjects every day and attend all the seminars given by the tuition centers before exams thinking that they’ll get some tips before PMR, SPM or whatever. But I am definitely NOT one! And not daddy’s girl as well! From primary school up until now, I study everything on my own WITHOUT any help from my family as my parents are not well educated as all of my friends’ parents. Also, I don’t believe that opportunities will come by knocking at my door, and that’s why I DON’T believe and in fact wont attend those seminars.
Do you really think that I cannot decide or don’t know what I want to do for degree? Maybe you’re just like anyone else who comes from a rich family, but I am NOT! Think about having your parents selling the house we’re currently staying in just to let you study what you want! It is a MUST for me to think again and again! If I come out not having a job, who’s gonna take care of them? Where are they going to live at? I have to work part time during holidays unlike many other friends of mine who don’t!
I want to go overseas, because I think that there will be more opportunities out there than just being in Malaysia. I’ve been staying out there during my foundation studies and I know the feeling of being homesick and all.
Anyways, thanks for your information….
Well, I can only judge you based on what you said here. For somebody who claims to be independent and pro-active, you clearly haven’t done your homework, or perhaps you did but could not interpret your findings properly. You don’t need to compare with others just to proof that you are independent.
If your family situation is as you said, I strongly suggest you do not do MBBS. It is hard enough to do MBBS without the need to worry about family finances, it is a gigantous feat to do it with those issues in mind. And who is to guarantee that you will pass everything 1st time round. What if you are required to repeat semesters and years ? Have you thought about it ? If finances is that important to you, why don’t you think of something else such as banking or accountancy ? In fact, Huskies dropped you a bone by saying miners. The courses are shorter, hence the cost also lower, and these people have much better job prospects. My sister is an accountant and she earns 4 times what I earn, but it took her 10 years to get there. Working as a doctor for another 6 years will not get me anywhere near that figure.
If you think that the healthcare industry overseas is a greener pasteur, then you are really in for a shock. Your believes has to be backed up by statistics. Have you even bother to look up on employment of healthcare professionals abroad ? Everyone knows that it is getting harder for healthcare professionals to find jobs, let alone decent paying ones. And with a qualification from Malaysia which is pretty much not recognised anywhere else (face it! only a very minority of our current local degrees are recognised abroad), can you really guarantee that you will get a job by moving abroad with your MBBS or Bpharm ? There is a very real chance that you will end up like the many Indian (I meant those from India, not those from Malaysia) doctors who took PLAB to get to UK, only to discover that there aren’t jobs. They used their live savings just to take that exam because they believed that going overseas is a greener pasteur and ended up stuck in UK without a job and without money. Of course, this is only in the healthcare industry, I can’t say that moving abroad in other industries will not get you a bigger salary.
Just to add to what Anaes SHO has mentioned regarding working overseas as a doctor – you’ll have to deal with prejudices that local patients might have against you.
Unless you can somehow fake an accent and pretty much transform yourself into a true-blooded Aussie (for example, could be British/American/Canadian), people will know you’re foreign-trained because almost none of their own citizens read medicine abroad. Especially so since high profile cases such as the one involving a certain Dr. Patel aka Dr. Death in Australia – foreign-trained doctors now receive heavy scrutiny from both the media and the public. Admittedly, some have been unfairly discriminated against in spite of their immense contribution to rural medicine in Australia. So, it’s not necessarily smooth sailing all the way in a foreign country.
http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/investigations/8269333/aca-health-investigation
Watch this report and if you think you can handle this, then by all means go ahead 🙂
Actually, I’ve quite done my homework about the course and the job prospect overseas as well as in Malaysia. I know that health sciences courses aren’t gonna bring me anywhere with a good pay. Just want to double check with everyone to make sure that people are not only just spreading rumors like some who are not even in the field or inexperience people. Of course I know accounts and finance will offer better pay. In fact, my parents mentioned about it before as well. But then again, I just with to work with something that I at least have interest in instead of just simply choosing a course and end up regretting.
I’ve thought about all that you’ve mentioned actually, fyi. And that’s what I’m worrying about. But I believe to be a doctor, one must be confident with oneself?
It is always good to choose what you are really interested in but you need to know the reality on the gorund. Furthermore, many students are not aware of the various courses that are available and hot in demand currently and thus they never develope the interest in the first place! I blame our education system which never exposes our students to the job market/propect.
Speaking of interest, I really think that you should spend some time in a busy A+E department, especially in resus on weekend nights if you really want to study medicine, since you are taking such a huge financial commitment in pursuing your interest. On a personal level, I would not agree on selling your home to finance your medical education, the reasons for that has already been explain by Dr Paga somewhere in the blog, but ultimately, that is your choice to make. If you are keen on health sciences, you might want to consider physiotherapy. They earn good money, and I believe we are still short of them.
Confidence is one thing, reality is another. Otherwise, everyone will just sail through med school and nobody would have failed. The truth is it is one of the toughest course at undergrad level, and rightly so. Afterall, you are being granted a license to make direct decisions on somebody’s life, it is only fair that you have been trained to a sufficiently high level to be granted one.
I don’t know how did you perform in your PMR, SPM and Pre-U, but school life in Malaysia is so easy because the standard is so low that good performance in school doesn’t mean good performance in med school. Med school is a whole new ball game altogether.
Regardless, I hope that you think about it carefully and make a decision that you will not regret in the future. For your info, I regretted doing MBBS and still regret being a doctor, that is part of the reason why I ended up doing anaes. .
Hello Dr,
Besides working as a doctor or going for specialist after graduating, are there any other alternative jobs that I can involve myself in? For example, maybe pharmacy?
If I do not my housemanship or do not get a seat for it, are there any other alternatives that i can look into?
Thank you in advance.
Pls read my article on “What if…………” Under “for Future Doctors” page.
Hi doctor,
Do you think going to a reputable university is important for medicine student? Or the results are more important? Meaning if there is a student from a not-so-reputable uni with good results, and a student from a reputable uni but moderate results, which of them will be more preferred in terms of employment? Since that there might be a chance that there will be no seats for housemen in the future.
Will going to a more reputable university make a difference? If not, then why so many are looking to go to IMU, so on and so forth?
Thanks in advance.
The main advantage of going to IMU is that their overseas twinning programmes lead to degrees that are internationally recognised. This opens the door to the global village with greater flexibility and opportunities for one’s future career.
In the developed nations, medical and surgical career advancement is for the most part not decided by cables but by merit. Even those with cables still have to have accrued enough on their CV to justify their selection for advancement up the training ladder.
It depends on what you mean by reputable university. UM is a reputable university but it is not recognised internationally ( use to be recognised till 1988), except for Singapore. Some universities from UK, Australia, India are recognised internationally. Of course, it is better to graduate from these internationally recognised universities in order for you to be able to work in many countries. So, in case you can’t get a job in Malaysia, you can still apply to other countries where your degree is recognised. Even for IMU, their local 5 year programme is of no use. BUT their twinning programme are worthwhile as they are from internationally recognised universities. Of course they cost much more.
To me, if you have good entry qualifications to start with, and have interest in medicine, you will graduate anyway. So, being a graduate itself may not make any difference as most low cost universities have 100% passing rate. Some do not even rate the students as 1st/2nd or 3rd class. So, how are we going to diffrentiate you guys? The only other option will be a common entrance exam which was proposed but was scraped due to political reasons. But I heard that you may need to apply for a job soon after your housemanship, which will be done on contract basis.
Ic ic… So if I have a choice like Taylor’s or Segi UC, it’s the same whichever I choose?
Yes, but your degree will only allow you to work in Malaysia and no where else! Both this uni are new and yet to produce any graduates. In fact MMC is yet to accreditate them. Without MMC accreditation, you can’t work even in Malaysia.
Thank you for helping me to clear my doubts, doctor.
I’ve seen your post regarding doctors will have to apply for MOs after HOs. So what do you think will be the criteria that they will look into in terms of giving MO seats?
Likely your performance as Housemen and availability of post. Being in Malaysia, unlikely it will be transparent.
Yea I do get what you mean regarding the transparency. What about HOs? They will look at results or where I graduated from?
Not at the moment but not sure about the future!
So the only way out for people like me are taking entrance exam from other countries or exams like MRCP?
Yes but again passing the exam does not guarantee a post either. All depends on luck!
Good afternoon Dr,
Thanks for explaining the misconceptions.
I am currently studying AUSMAT pre-u course in a college. I do not know if I should take Pharmacy or Medicine in uni. I wish to study in UK too, this is why i am considering twinning programme in IMU for Medicine course or Nottingham for Pharmacy course (I heard Nottingham is famous of its pharmacy course)
I’ve heard from my friends that pharmacist’s job is boring although it is rewarding. Personally, I find medicine an interesting course, but i am not a hardworking student and I am afraid Medicine will be too hectic for me.
Is medicine course really that bad – no social life, have to study everyday?
Can you draw out pros and cons of being a pharmacist and a doctor?
What is the difference between internship and housemanship?
Is residency same as internship?
Do I have to take up Master course and then Specialist/PhD if i wanted to be a pediatrician? Or i can just decide on my specialist during my residency?
Please clear up my doubts ASAP. I’ll appreciate it a lot. Thank you!
Please read all my other posts in this blog. You can find your answers. Housemanship and internship are the same. Malaysia do not practise residency type training. Residency is not internship. You need Master’s to become a specialist. You can find all the answers if you read all my postings.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am final year med student; studying in Australia for the past 6 years. I have been offered a job in a reputable metropolitan health institute in Melbourne. Since the number of international candidates offered internship in Melbourne has significantly reduced this year (due to the sudden surge of medical graduates in Melbourne from the 3 unis – Melbourne, Monash, Deakin), receiving this offer as an international student is a great privilege.
Although I would really want to accept the job offer, part of me still wants to return to Malaysia badly. I have been reading most of your articles and posts on this blog….seems to me that most people would prefer to work overseas. However, I was just wondering..is there not anything that can be done? Everyone fears for their own career prospect and future and how working here would be ‘unimaginable’ because of the constant pressure of being oppressed by the unjust system. I really want to work in Malaysia and yes, most of the posts on this blog makes me scared. I know that I cannot change anything with the Malaysian healthcare system but I still feel that a difference can be made if we stick to each other and work towards it. Or am I just being naive? I am confused as to what I should do with the offer..should I accept it and stay in Australia OR should I return HOME and risk a tough life?
Dear Rain, congratulations on being offered internship in Melbourne at a time when jobs are in short supply even for Oz citizens, let alone IMG’s.
If you are government sponsored, then you have an obligation and responsibility to return to Malaysia as soon as possible to serve your tax-paying countrymen who bankrolled your education.
If you are independantly sponsored then I would urge you not to waste the fortune which has been spent for your overseas degree in returning to Malaysia and thereby shutting your potential gateway to the global village.
For many, there are strong personal reasons to want to return to Malaysia. If these are the major consideration for you, then go home.
But in reading Dr Pagal’s blog, you will already be aware of the crumbling medical system back home with too many junior doctors and insufficient postgrad training posts which are increasingly of poor quality. That said, unless you have the right skin colour, your probability of getting into a postgrad training programme is remote anyway.
If you stay on in Oz, you will have opportunity for world class training, better working conditions, good salary and a real chance for career advancement based on merit and diligent application.
The choice is really yours to make, but I would urge you to consider embracing the global village, daunting as the prospect may seem. The world is now a very small place and there are so many opportunities and adventures to be had.
For all of the doom and gloom in Dr Pagal’s blog pages, medicine and surgery remain a truly rewarding career for those who have the interest and chose it for the right reasons. Find what you love and chase it.
I wish you all the best.
Oh, I forgot to add.. you are being naive if you think the problems with the healthcare system in Bolehland are going to resolve within the next quarter century. It is about to get a whole lot worse and there is no end in sight.
Sorry to be a nihilist.
Thank you for your advice, Jon J. I appreciate it. I am self-sponsored student; so I am free to make any decision.
O..don’t worry; I am not offended. I knew that anyway.
If you are a self sponsored student then stay back in Australia and complete your postgraduate studies.
Many like you who came back eventually left . The system here is just too complex to change.
Thank you for your advice. I am accepting the job offer.
Hai Doctor,
i’m 1st year medic student, after reading this i become scared, what should i do. Do i need to continue the study in medic @ just change my course.. but the things why i choose medic because i really want to be a doctor and its not because of the salary or movie addict or something… please tell me what steps should i do.
Pls read all the entries in my blog especially under “For future doctors” page. If you are willing to go throu all the frustration and stress that is coming your way and really have passion for medicine, then go ahead. BUT life is not going to be easy!
Hi Dr Pagalavan.
I just finish spm about a month ago. A friend of ine introduce me to your blog after i mention to her about my intention in doing medicine. After reading your blog, i trully agree with you that doing medicine and working in Malaysia, the pay will start to decrease and there are too many doctor’s right now. But i feel for me doing Medicine its something interesting and getting know more about how to cure someone. My family is literally full of doctor’s but this is not the main reason why i choose to do medecine. So doctor, could let me know any recognised university to my degree after doing my a-level’s
hello Dr. i am an spm leaver. so the first start to become a doctor is to take what course? as in asasi sains or asasi perubatan in local university. what is your opinion?
asasi sains and asasi perubatan are the same.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I hv just received offer from Monash University Sunway Campus for MBBS. Meanwhile, I have also been short-listed for the IMU-PMS programme. Just to say that I hv got both offers, which would be a better option? Tq sir.
Depends on what you intend to do in the future. Migrating? then MOnash will be a better choice but beware that Australia may stop taking foreign doctors soon. Even then, you will have a better chance to go to Australia with this degree.
Well, i have no intention to migrate 2 Aust 4 now…but in terms of quality of education and recognition of the degree which would b a better option sir ? coz currently my options r monash sunway, IMU twinning and manipal twinning. But i am having a difficult time here choosing the right uni.. so just wanna seek ur advice on this matter sir.. thx a lot sir ..
Manipal twinning is not recognised anywhere. Monash is recognised in Australia/NZ.
IMU twinning is better depending on which university you are going to graduate from but it will be more expensive.
Thx a lot sir !
sir,, if there is someone that study in taylor university in medic,,would it ok?? what is your opinion??
It is a new college and thus diffcult for me to comment. I do know that the degree is not recognised anywhere.
hello DR…..im a spm leaver n plan study forensic course…can i get a job wit good salary once i fnsh my studies???is tat job highly demand in malaysia compare to doctors?doctors or forensic officers wil do the posmoterm?
The only place where you can get a job for forensic officer is the police department. IN Malaysia, only the police runs the forensic department. Post mortems are conducted by Forensic Pathologist who are doctors. Forensic officers are people who go to the scene, collect evidence and come to a conclusion to complete police investigations. It is still in demand in Malaysia and the police department is setting up CSI centres throughout the country.
thank you dr..
.
hello doc , i just completed my a level with the result of 1B 2Cs and i plan to do pharmacy course so i only have one university to choose which is MAHSA university so may i know whether this university will be recognised by government after i graduated ?
For pharmacy there is no such thing as recognition. As long as it is MQA accreditated.
as long as that university apply to mqa ??
MQA is the qualifications accreditation body for all courses in Malaysia.
the thing is mqa says the entry requirement for degree of pharmacy is 3Bs but mqa doesnt know why MAHSA has the requirement of 3Cs so mqa cant confirm whether this course will be recognised since the first batch of pharmacy hasnt come out yet~
Then, you will have problems.
u mean the recognised part ??
yes
ok~thx for your reply , doc ~
dear doc..
i am very interested in medicine. i had already finished my high school. i got 8a’s in spm and 1b+ that is biology. i need yr advice…please. what do you think?? for yr information, my parents want one of their children to be a doctor…and they are hoping that i can be a doctor. but, i’m afraid i couldn’t make it..
If you are not 100% certain that you want to do medicine, then don’t do it. Medicine is field that involves lifelong studying and reading. Doesn’t mean you get good results in SPM means that you need to take up medicine. If you are doing medicine simply because you want to satisfy your parents’ wish for a doctor in the family, I will advice you not to study medicine. There will come a time when you might regret the decision.
Think what you want to do and not what your parents want you to become! Just because you got good results does not mean you must become a doctor!
Good day, Doctor. I am an undergraduate studying biomedical sciences in UKM. Although I have a general interest in medical sciences, I don’t find doing lab works interesting. I do feel that doctors have a more interesting job compare to scientists. Therefore, I jump on onto the newly founded Perdana University Graduate School of Medicine once I heard about it (and i am accepted, sem starting this sept). I do believe that it’s a good school, considering that it is partnering with JH medical school. May I know what do you think about PUGSOM? Also, considering the “overproduction” of medical doctors in Malaysia now, do you think it’s a good idea to pursue this career? Do you have any advice for me?
Hi Allen,
Are you an undergraduate or a graduate of biomedical science in UKM ? I was told one must have a basic degree (graduated) then only he/she is qualified to apply for this medical course, otherwise have to go for the undergraduate (Ireland) course.
Dear Eddy,
i think Allen is graduated or else he will not be accepted in Perdana Uni.
Dear Allen,
I am sort of your senior but i am medical grad. One of your senior, who graduated last year, from biomedical, pursued his study in medicine in Perdana as well. He seems to enjoy it very much as he posted most of his experiences in Facebook.
But you need to know this, although it is collaborated with John Hopkins, your ultimate degree in medicine is not recognized in John Hopkins itself, not even from our neighbouring countries like Indonesia, Singapore… you can only worked in Malaysia (if only there is SPACE for you.. ). You may argue with me that they say this or that. Honestly this is what we call advertisement. Besides, it is a very new Uni with lack of facilities for teaching. The lack of facilities refers to mannequin, and instruments. They don’t even own a hospital for “experimental learning” among medical students eg UKM owns HUKM and UM owns UMMC. Hence the quality will be doubt. The quality of young doctors already been doubt what else if graduate from such new Uni who don’t even own patients for you to learn with. Again, you may say we will join this and that hospital, but most of MOH hospital won’t allow you to perform procedure on patient, assist in surgery or etc… You are only qualified to become wallpaper or vas… Observe, observe and observe… That is not fun at all without the hands on experience. Once you do it, you will remember for life.
Anyway, if you really, truly, seriously love to become a doctor with “heavy workload, stress, long working hours… xxx” (the young doctors love to say these nowadays, which i think is NON-SENSE), go for it, as I believe with the hard work, persistency, good attitude and the commitment for lifelong learning, even though you are not the best doctors, at least you are among the best. Good luck.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. As I said, the health structure in US and Malaysia is different. Most of the lecturers from US who come here to teach may not even know the difference. Even the students who are now in PUGSOM may not know the reality outside as they think that they are getting the best medical education!
Hi Eddy,
I am graduating this year. One more month to go before i complete this degree. I somehow assume I will graduate without too much trouble. (fingers crossed)
Hi Chin,
Yes, I know Owen. Also, I know that the degree will only be recognized in Malaysia. Haha, I would have enrolled in to medicine of UM or UKM if given the chance, trust me. However, I guess this is my best choice. Thank you for reminding me about the absence of their own hospital, I will have to survive that, then. The quality of PU is also probably…..not as good as UM, UKM. However, I still hope I will be able to be a good doctor in the future.
I wouldn’t say I love being stressful, busy and lack of personal time, but I think I will be able to cope with it. It is the “value” of this job that attracts me, the ability to “do something to help people” ……For now, I want to do that with my life. Thanks for your advice on “hard work, persistency, good attitude and the commitment for lifelong learning”, I will do my best. Thank you.
I presume you are a graduate of biomedical science as only people with basic degree can enroll into PUGSOM. Doctors job may be more interesting on paper but also more stressfull and demanding than other fields. You can read throu my blog for further info. After some time, you will also get bored!
Partnering with JH does not make it a good school automatically. You must understand that JH is just borrowing their curicullum and some lecturers to this university. It is essentially Perdana University degree with NO international recognition. That is the reason I disagree when they put a RM1 million price tag to it. I rather go overseas and get a well recognised degree for the same amount of money. However, I know that JPA is giving full scholarship to everyone accepted into this uni and thus you don’t need to pay anything. Furthermore, being a JPA scholar will guarantee you a job in civil service as you will be bonded. The problem of oversupply will only affect you in your postgraduate studies.
The healthcare structue in US is totally different then Malaysia. Thus, having US based curicullum is not going to do well in Malaysia. The advantage is only the fact that they are recruiting people with basic degree who are more matured and has real interest in medicine
Dr. Paga. I am graduating this year, about one month from now. I do read about doctors being a stressful and demanding job often. However, I dare not say I fully understand what it really means as I have not experienced it yet. It had me worried some time ago. But, I decided to give it a try. Who knows what the future holds? I hope I will turn out well.
Thank you for your advice. Although I will still go for it, I will definitely see this opportunity from a different perspective. I do hope I will perform well in the future.
Dr Pagal:
Partnering with JH does not make it a good school automatically. You must understand that JH is just borrowing their curicullum and some lecturers to this university. It is essentially Perdana University degree with NO international recognition.
But, but…. no, I can’t believe this! Surely not! But.. I thought…
“the university’s opening would send ripples through the region and be a “phenomenal lure””.
This has to be true. It came from the mouth of Najib himself. So it *must* be true.
Good morning Jon,
Is it THAT bad??? The thing is, will I be well prepared with JH’s curriculum? Will I be competent as a medical doctor when I graduated from PUGSOM? Even though though it doesn’t have its own teaching hospital, and it’s new, but the curriculum should works, right?
As I said before, JH curicullum is for US health system which is not suitable for Malaysian healthcare. Furthermore, having a curicullum does not make you a good doctor or make the uni an excellent uni. Almost all medical schools will have an excelent curicullum on “paper”. What is important is the delivery methods and training system.
Trust me, being a good doctor is not about memorising books and listening to lectures. IT is about interviewing patients, examining them and coming to a diagnosis and treatment plan.
Dear Allen,
No harm trying Perdana even though it costs MR 250k per yr, you are not paying for it ! As what Dr Paga had said, 30% of Mara students had failed their medical course in the past (wonder what is the latest statistics?), so if you do not like the course or not good enough for the course, just quit instead of regretting in the future of giving up such good opportunity.
Huskies
“Just to add to what Anaes SHO has mentioned regarding working overseas as a doctor – you’ll have to deal with prejudices that local patients might have against you.
Unless you can somehow fake an accent and pretty much transform yourself into a true-blooded Aussie (for example, could be British/American/Canadian), people will know you’re foreign-trained because almost none of their own citizens read medicine abroad. Especially so since high profile cases such as the one involving a certain Dr. Patel aka Dr. Death in Australia – foreign-trained doctors now receive heavy scrutiny from both the media and the public. Admittedly, some have been unfairly discriminated against in spite of their immense contribution to rural medicine in Australia. So, it’s not necessarily smooth sailing all the way in a foreign country”
Hi Huskies,
You are absolute right. Recently some of my friends complained to me that they were scolded by some Aussie local patients (older ones) like “I don’t understand your accent, and I don’t know why you are here” “Go back to your country, what r you doing here?”, “go back to China!!” (actually not from China) “We don’t need U here”.
[working in australia]
well… i guess it depends on the individual’s accent.
As a native english speaker i struggle to understand some foreign doctors…my colleagues! Dont mean to sound rude but some people just arent very clear when they speak.
Most doctors with have no difficulty communicating with patients.
Personally i’ve never faced that problem….and i dont hear my colleagues complaining about it either.
Those friends I mentioned are not doctors, they are medical students doing clinical years in Aussie U.
i didnt realize that you are a native speaker.
HELLO DR.PAGALAVAN,
I am glad we hav at least one that could actually understand all those complications in medicine besides all those rejoiced moments u hav 2 be a doctor.a great article 4 those who think medical is good cauze of money.it would be a great help from u if u suggest any good Uni that is well recognised in india.i am from malaysia n i’m hoping ang looking forward 2 study in india.ur help will be much appreciated!!! TQS…
Are you talking about medicine? Then Aimst in India is the best. The rest that are listed in the MMC recognition list are OK.
thank you doctor!i will surely hav a look at the MMC recognition list.bye…
As the world paces, as much as the community wants from you all the qualified medical practitioners, i always believe, the extent to which the doctor-wanna-be’s have to offer have been stretched by the same margin too. So, doctor, can you shed some light to me as to what qualities are the medical schools today are looking for as benchmarks while they are sifting through a throng of applicants eager to do medicine in their university? And from a grander scale, what it takes internally to become a practically quality doctor?
Your opinion is very valued. Thanks you doctor, in advance.
Ernie
This is a good article to read about becoming a good doctor https://pagalavan.com/2012/03/28/for-future-doctors-do-you-want-to-be-a-doctor-by-dr-wong-yin-onn/.
Malaysian medical schools got no benchmark as far as I am concerned in a true Malaysian Boleh spirit.
Dear Dr. Pagavalan,
I cannot thank you enough for your brilliant posts regarding the prospects of medical students. It is really heart breaking to witness the country’s healthcare system crumble in fromt of our eyes, with the huge outflow of new graduates flooding the general hospitals to serve housemanship. I look forward to reading more of your posts in the near future. Keep up the good work,
Aspiring doctor
Dear Dr,
I just finished my A levels. If i’m lucky i’ll be starting med school in august. I am doing this for my passion. It is obvious that medicine is not the best money making job so its definitely not for the money. But job security is really important for me. I wanna know that I can do something with what I’ve learned. I will be spending my parents hard earned money going through med school. I wanna know if I will be able to get a job after getting my degree and finishing housemanship.
There is no job in this world which is guaranteed. I can’t promise you anything. By the time you graduate, there will definately be enough doctors. So, you just have to depend on your luck
Dear Dr, after reading your blogpost on the misconceptions of being a medical doctor, i have doubts on becoming a medical doctor. Based on our current economic situation and your medical knowledge, do you think it is more advisable to study DDS or MBBS. Im interested in both of them, but cant decide on either one. Thank you very much
you mean BDS? IN 5 years time, anything can happen if you are talking about money. There are also many students doing dentistry currently but the situation is not as bad as medicine.
Hi
Hi doctor,
Your reports are sending shivers down my spine. My son (who has always wanted to be a doctor) has just started his MBBS. He was undecided between MBBS and BDS . All of us finally decided that he should pursue MBBS.
He has just started the july intake.
My question is :
1. Is dentistry a better option in job security wise?
2. Which would be more time demanding when he starts working (Dentist or GP)?
3. What is the salary difference between the two?
4. In private practices – who has a better demand?
Thanking you in advance for your reply.
No job is going to be secured in the future. I know many are also jumping into dentistry which may produce overflow of dentist as well but it is much easier to open a clinic for dentistry. Overall, the rules and registration is much more strict for medicine.
Both GPs and Dentist have to run the clinic from 9am till 10pm daily. You can’t run away from it as it is a business and it is getting very competitive out there. However, patient demands and expectations are very much less for a dentist. How many emergencies do you have to deal with as a dentist? Furthermore, the one time investment for dentist is less compared to GP. Most of a dentist work are “hand” work rather then medications. You get paid for your hand skills unlike GPs who depend on medications most of the time.
In government service, the salary difference is just RM 104/month.
Private hospitals do not hire dentist same as how they do not hire medical officers except for emergency departments.
hello doctor, do u think nu med in malaysia is eatablished for the mbbs program?
Their first batch is in 4th year. Thus can’t comment much on their products yet. However, I still feel they will be better then some of the other medical schools in Malaysia since they follow the same established curriculum as in UK with the same exams.BUT, NuMED degree in Malaysia is NOT recognised elsewhere and thus you will not be able to work anywhere else other than Malaysia.
thanks..if nu med compare to imu?
IMU more established and if you do their. Twining programme, better.
Heard from reliable source that a survey was done on all HOs (graduated from all local and overseas universities) on their housemanship performance, IMU was ranked as one of the top three universities on the list of best performance/category.
if in case a Malaysia medical college grad wants to work overseas – Singapore, New Zealand – how do we go about it?
You need to sit and pass the entrance exam of the respective country. Please contact the respective medical councils. However, passing the exam do not guarantee you a job.
If I can’t get into IMU-PMS and Monash Sunway, what are the best options that I have in terms of University? Can I still sit for the entrance exams in countries like Australia if I do a degree that is only recognized in Malaysia? I heard it’s possible as long as the degree is recognized by by IMED. Also I am non-bumi. Do I have a chance of doing speciality training later if I’m still in Malaysia? I know that you’re a doctor not education advisor we should be posting something more serious here but I don’t really know who to ask. Sorry.
Yes, you can sit for the entrance exam as long as your university is listed in WHO listings. However, passing this exam does not guarantee you a post.
Speciality training for surgical fields are going to be tough in the future due to limited post. You still have MRCP/MRCPCH and MRCOG as an alternative if you are interested in being a physician, paediatrician and Obstetrician.It is the same in other countries as well. I know many from UK and Australia returning back as they could not get a training post there.
hai doc
i am dr habeeb from india basically from kerala.i finished my mbbs and MD internal medicine one year back.i saw a ad in news paper calling for doctors in one of the medical colleges in mal.i am currently working ina central goverment institute here.what about the working condition and salary in mal. is it wise to migrate to mal. thank you
If your MD is only 1 year, likely MMC may not recognised you as a specialist in Malaysia ( they need 5 years). Thus getting a job in university as a clinical lecturer may be difficult.
The working condition and salary varies from one uni to another. It can be bad and good. Some pay very low with poor working condition and that’s the reason they can’t get enough locals working for them.
Migrating ?? I would not recommend. It will take more then 7 years for you to get even a PR status (use to be 10 years).
hi doc, pls help me out here.
i have intentions of studying medicine (mbbs) in MAHSA university college. but for noww i am just doing my foundation in the same MAHSA. please advise me, cos this your article has discouraged me a lot, no shred of hope left! do i go ahead and do the mbbs in mahsa? is the degree or certificate recognised internationally or locally or both? by the way, i am an international student, from Nigeria to be precise… is there any hope of job with this certificate? tho i have no real intentions of practising in nigeria, but just expecting the worse, am i safe studying mbbs in MAHSA? practically, i intend practising in the uk with the certificate. i need a crystal clear answer please, everyone is beating around the bush whenever i inquire aout this.
thank you for your time. i must commend your efforts in saving our generation. it is highly appreciated 🙂
If I may, Dr. Paga. 🙂
“is the degree or certificate recognised internationally or locally or both?”
I can definitely tell you that you will not be able to practice anywhere else with that certificate except Malaysia.
“practically, i intend practising in the uk with the certificate.”
Not that it is not possible, but rather impractical. The statement above being the main reason. First, it is not recognized internationally. Second, you have to sit for an entrance exam in order to be eligible to work there. Third, UK graduates themselves are finding it hard to get a training post. Therefore, being an overseas graduate, it will be even a greater challenge for you to get a job there.
Dr.Paga,which is the best university in Russia for Medicine, in your point of view?
I can;t say for sure but Moscow Medical Academy is better, from what I gather
dear doc, i would like to hear an opinion from you… i got jpa scholarships to study doctor of medicine in Lincoln University College. your article about doctor nowadays open my eyes about how hard and passion to be a “real” doctor. yet, i love the job because its help people everyday and its kindness even they are tired and stressful . i don’t mind about the salary i got. but your statement about doctor is pack full during 2016 shred my hope and i afraid if i will end up working at the restaurant with doctor degree. jpa does said that i must work 10 years with MOH. it is promising ?. i mean, with lot of doctor to come in future, the gov’ment eventually will change their system. i kind of puzzling over here.
please comment me if you got time
Firstly I am surprised that JPA even sponsor you to study at LUC!! LUC is yet to be accreditated by MMC.
Being a JPA scholars means, you will be bonded with the government for 10 years. THis means the government must provide you with a job. Your problems will only come during post graduate education.
LUC is the college that was involved with the ‘Ukranian medical programs’ scandal. It basically made those unrecognized programs as their own and charged RM100k extra compared to the original cost of completing the entire program in Ukraine …
… and these are not even a twinning programs.
From that scandal I came to a conclusion that LUC started the program for the sole purpose of making money and was hell-bent on doing so, it neither had the manpower nor the resources to start their own medical program in Malaysia and had to resort to medical programs abroad for that purpose – even if the programs are not recognizes by MMC…
Fortunately this issue was raised and they had to call-off their ‘medical program’ in Ukraine… alas… they have started their medical program in Malaysia anyway…
guess where most of the money will come from?
Ever since the failure of the ‘5 years freeze’ on new medical colleges, quite a number of new medical programs have been introduced by existing IPTS, the latest was by University college Shahputra…
I have personally asked the former DG of Health (Dr.Ismail Merican) on the freeze on his visit to Bangalore in 2010…. much to my uni’s president displeasure… heheh…
It is very unfortunate that he is no longer our DG of health…
(Search YouTube for – MMC Visit 2010 IMS)
Some of the existing IPTS even run multiple medical programs to maximize profit…
PTPTN and MARA have been the major source of their income – competition for student intake is fierce amongst these IPTS… so much so that many have started their very own ‘foundation programs’ which in my POV is a method to bypass the more strict entrance requirement set by MMC for other standard pre-u qualifications (eg: STPM, A-Levels, etc)…
It is indeed surprising that nowadays JPA scholars are sent study medicine in IPTS that hasn’t even got MMC’s recognition yet… and in your case… LUC!
I guess money from PTPTN and MARA coffers isn’t enough for all the medical IPTS in Malaysia… JPA… its your turn now… cough up the dough!
I think someone should write a book entitled – ‘The Business of Medical Schools’ etc
thank for giving the opinion. and yet, thank for the article you wrote. it open up my eyes what doctor is. thank again
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dear dr.
thank you very much for your kind effort for delivering the right information to all the student who sought ur help. u have open up my eyes as well. a part of me still want to do medicine although im currently doing my bachelor in forensic science. reading ur articles and all the post makes me to fill that i am on the right path. thank you
Forensic science is an interesting field with a lot of demand.
Dear Dr,
I am given two options to study MBBS like Monash Malaysia and Numed, which one would u recommend? Numed intake would be in September while Monash intake would be in February. For my situation, I would graduate faster if I choose to study in Numed. I was told that seniority is important in the medical field. Is that true ? Would I hold a greater advantage if I were to graduate earlier?
Both are OK but NuMed got better facilities. However NuMed degree is not recognized elsewhere where as Monash is recognized in Australia and NZ.
I see. Thank you, Doctor.. And I hope to do my postgraduate study overseas in the future, if possible. So btw these 2 institutions,which one will provide me greater advantage?
Monash will be preferred BUT looking at the scenario in Australia, the chances for you to get a job there as intern is very very slim. If you don’t do your internship there, you can not get registered in Australia.
Dear doc,
I am a prospective student from pakistan, currently finishing my Alevels. I want to apply to Malaysia for MBBS for august intake. If I apply to NUMed, will i get the degree which is the same as the one awarded in the UK branch? Secondly i am considering an MBBS twinning programme offered by IMU. If i go for that, will the degree awarded be of the partner medical school (eg: Aberdeen), or will it be of IMU itself only?
Lastly, what is your opinion on the twinning programme offered by Penang Medical College? Is PMC a good option ? Thanking you in advance, please reply doc
I think the more practical question is would you get a job for HOship? I don;t think you got any chance in Malaysia consider the glut of doctors here.
I believe Dr. Paga has mentioned a couple of times that NuMed Malaysia is not recognized elsewhere except Malaysia. And as a foreigner, you would not be able to get to get an internship posting in Malaysia despite carrying an MBBS degree which is recognized by Malaysia itself.
The better option is to go for the IMU twinning program where the degree is awarded by the partnered medical school instead of IMU. If you’re lucky, you’ll be able to work in the country in which you graduate from.
Not sure about PMC, but from I know many years back, the first part of the course is done in Ireland and the remaining clinical years are done in Malaysia. The degree is awarded by PMC, so I believe it’s not a good choice for you either, based on the same logic which I’ve stated earlier. Then again, this is what I knew many years back. Things may have changed now.
Th answers to your questions are found in this blog.
NuMed offers the same degree as NuMed UK BUT it is not recognised elsewhere. Even if GMC recognises it, the chances of you getting a job in UK is almost NIL due to immigration laws etc. Please read here
IMU twinning program will be a better option for you. Since you will do the clinical years overseas and graduate from the twinning university, the degree is the same and well recognised.
PMC’s clinical years are done in Malaysia and thus it is only recognised in Ireland. However, looking at the scenario at Ireland, you are unlikely to get a job there
Dear doc,
Im a SPM leaver and looking forward to pursue MBBS in Manipal University, India. How about the recognisation doc? Is the degree from this medical school in india is recognised in US? Are all the degrees from any medical colleges in india is recognised in US? Studying in Russia or India. Which is a better option?
NO degree is recognised in US. All graduates will need to sit for the USMLE exams before applying for a job. NO guarantee that you will get a job in US after passing USMLE exam.
Whether Russia or India, depends on the medical school.
Thanks doctor. I still haven’t make up mind on my future undertakings. I have the passion for medicine but then i’m quite worried of the overflowing medical graduates every years. I afraid if the demand for doctors reduces in future.
I have the passion for medicine but still money matters. Engineering sectors seems more profitable.The cost of getting an engineering degree from US is almost same as studying medicine in local private universities. Engineers are paid well nowadays. If we compare studying medicine and petroleum engineering, which degree is more ‘worth’ doc? I mean in terms of salary.
You must understand that doctors in private sector are not paid a salary. You are self employed and running a business. That’s the reason it is getting tough out there, to survive.
Petroleum engineers are well paid but you need to travel a lot. Sometimes you will offshore etc and even be sent to other countries.
hye dr i have browse through all those comments regarding mbbs through ur site.pls clear my confusion as i have completed my diploma pharmacy n i wish 2 pursue mbbs.job security is really worrying me a lot after reading all these comments…i have a great interest in doing mbbs n i plan to do it in masterskill university which has a twinning with chetinaad university india.pls give me a suggestion on wat should i do sir….
Wow, you are really committed to become doctor. But beware, before you graduate there will be at least 30k new doctor in the market. Go ahead if you are really passionate towards this medical career but I would strongly advise against borrowing money to complete this medical course. You will probably need at least 400k inclusive of your living cost and to pay back this loan will probably need 10-15 years before you can even build your life.
First, check with MMC website whether you have the qualification to do medicine over here http://mmc.gov.my/v1/docs/MY%20Entry%20criteria%2020120911%20Adopted.pdf
if you don’t qualify then no point to pursue. NO job is guaranteed in the future. If you are a self sponsored student, you will be at the bottom of the list in getting housemanship post. Without horsemanship, you can’t practise as a doctor. Never take huge loan to do medicine, you will never end up paying it.
hope sir can reply soon^^ur coorperating will be appreciated^^
Hello, sir, I am waiting for my SPM results and my ambition is to become a doctor. Its my passion and I am not forced by my parents nor interested to get the high salary and glory. Still then, I am still in dilemma, I may worry that when I finish my medicine study, I will not having any jobs, will that happen? I like the field of medicine and have the will to help others, should I continue my ambition?
No job is guaranteed in the future. If you have a passion for it after reading this blog, then why worry?
but my friend in AIMST ,she can enter after their sem1….is it possible for me?
It is up to the university
oo..ok thanks sir.May I know how much is the salary for the doctors nowadays?
Please read my post on “government doctors salary”
Dear Pagalavan Letchumanan, what are your thoughts about PLAB Part 1 and New Zealand?
Sitting for PLAB is of no use for us. Passing PLAB does not give you a job in UK. With the current immigration law, it is almost zero!
New Zealand is OK but need to pass their entrance exams.
To work in NZ without a ‘recognised degree’, there are is really only one way now::
Pass USMLE Part 1, AMC Part 1 or PLAB part 1 ….. AND THEN the NZREX exam
Your only other option without a NZ/Aus degree is if you have general registration with the GMC or Irish Medical Council.
thank you
thanks…
Hi Dr. I’m taking a-level now and going to graduate in June 2013. I really wish to take medicine but my family can’t afford me to study in uk or Australia. Can you give me some suggestion on which university I should apply for and where I should study? Thank you. 😀
try Aimst, Monash, Newcastle, PMC. Before taking huge loan to do medicine, pls read all my post under For Future Doctors page
Hi Dr pagalavan.. Thanks for this very useful article.. I am in need for some serious advice from you.. Im planning to take dentistry as my career path.. But after reading this post, I really got confused and terrified as hell! Is malaysia having a surplus of dentists as well? Im really interested with this job.. (But not because of the salary) 😦
At the moment, the situation for dentistry is not as bad as medicine.
hello doc.. i’m currently planning to further my study in medicine at Jordan University of Science and Technology (JUST). So if i can’t work in Malaysia, does JUST degree are recognized in other countries such as Singapore, Australia, New Zealand?
Nope
well at the moment, i am really into medicine.. like seriously! but i’m really afraid of the surplus thats goin to happen.. i’m just afraid that i can’t practice what i learn and i don’t really care about the salary.. but my result are quite excellent which is 11A+.. so would you recommend me to still pursue this study or are there any other complicated study that suits my result better?
Nothing is guaranteed in the future!
Hi faqirullah, looks like you have the passion in reading medicine. Go ahead as long as you are ready and sure of it.Again like what Dr Paga advise is not to do it for money but bcos of interest n passion for the sick n needy.
All the best!
Dear Sir , I really really really like really want to be an obstetrician 😦
can you tell me how ? But I heard it ‘s really hard !
either local Master’s or MRCOG
Are you asking as a student or as a working doctor? If the former, you have not been reading or understanding this blog. If the later, paga has answered below.
Or rather, above.
Hello doctor, My name is Kjn
I scored Straight A’s in my spm 2012 examination. I got A plus for my bio,chm, and phy. My dream since young is to become a doctor. My father, was a well known oncologist in Malaysia. He passed away two years back. I have the same desire to become like him. Now, i am confused, i was was offered a place for matriculation in penang. But i strongly feel stpm is more to my advantage. Can I have your views please?
I guess the decision had already been made, as the matriculasi has just started. But in a nutshell, if you want to go to IPTA, go Matrik, it’s a lot easier to score, and get good places in IPTA. If you want to hedge your bets, do STPM, you can get into IPTA, AND almost anywhere else in the world, but you will be disadvantaged by a tougher course, and difficulty in getting good grades.
hy sir,,,i really need ur help..actually im duing 2nd year medical degree in Russia..i hv a problem..actually i gt ” C” for my biology and chemistry nd physics…i cum here through agents..they ask me to do O-level but now they cheates..and with some problem i cant do it..because i dont have the NOC..I cant work in Malaysia..So i decided in working at other country ,,, where they recognised Russian degree crts….
so sir..what are the other countries that recorganised russia medical cert ???
pls ask your university or check respective country;s medical council website
Hello doctor,
I have always wanted to study medicine since young but as time passes, the heatbreaking truth regarding this career literally drained out my interest. I really enjoy studying pure science subjects and i am the kind of a money-wise person. When i was in form 4, i started looking into dentistry because i think that dentists enjoy their career and life more than doctors. Now, i’m doing a little research about pharmacy (the reason is humorous but rational, my friend asked me whether , can i spend my whole life staring into people’s mouth? I couldn’t answer her ) Well, i am still unsure due to the saturation in these three careers in Msia. I have considered accountancy before because i want to make good money in the coming 5 to 10 years but still, my interest is in science. Doctor, what is your opinion about biomedical engineering and can you recommend a few more other science related careers that are going to have great prospects in the coming years? Btw, i am a spm 2012 candidate and i scored full a plus for all my 9 subjects, currently doing a levels. Thank you in advance.
making good money in 5-10 years ? only way you are going to do this is by doing business. Employed job unlikely. Biomedical Engineering is too broad and I got no idea what type of job you can get. You need to talk to people who have done that and also various other science field courses.
Thank you for your reply,doctor. So far as i know, not many are working in this biochemical engineering. Studying, yes. But some of them get into this course because they couldn’t score 4 flat in matrix and study their first choice, while some of those who are commenting in forums regreted enrolling into this career because they couldn’t get a job now. Still, i do not generalise that this career has got no good outlooks. My family doctor told my mom that studying biomedic( which i have no idea the difference between biomedical science and biomedical engineering) is better than medicine. He said medicine will be too competitive in future just like what doctor, you said. In your own opinion, this biomedic ,pharmacy,medicine or dentistry will have a better chance in future?
*i take your advice doctor, if i ever strike toto, i will get into business while doing my degree =)* happy father’s day !
Wow, this is the truth,and Dr P,it isn’t just malayasia its almost everywhere especially here in Nigeria where I school am about to get into my final year,and am goin out of my mind,I have no idea wat is next after my HO and service,and am totally sure almost more than half my class too. I’ve totally removed my mind from making it big in medicine (except of course research and invention even that isn’t sure),and am searching for something to add to my educational background that can help me transition to a different career and as am finding out that isn’t easy as well. I really hope I don’t graduate with my pants down cos it will spell financial ruin for my future. Thank you so much for your article.
Hi, doctor. I have gotten offer letters from both NuMed and IMU(local). Which uni is better? Can u explain to me in terms of curriculum and clinical training?
I would prefer IMU as they are more established and very near to their teaching hospital. They do have very senior and good lecturers.
Hi ,doctor,
after go through the post in your blog,the IMU (local)are not regconised oversea ,will they face the problem during the postgraduate study?can I have your view please.
For local Master’s, there should not be a problem. Since IMU is WHO listed, you should be able to sit for MRCP/MRCPCH and MRCOG. But you can’t work anywhere overseas.
Unfortunately local universities only UM and UKM grads are recognised in Singapore -so if you graduate from IMU (local) and if you would like to do postgraduate training in Singapore you would need to have qualifications such as MRCP / MRCS – as for other countries like UK/Australia is virtually impossible… US you can try USMLE but not guaranteed a job even if you pass USMLE
I am so touched to see my 95 year old patient dressing up in shirt and tie getting ready to go home today. He had a hard time in the hospital with even death came knocking on his door. I did everything I could to give him a fighting chance. He told me a few days ago “I am better now thanks to you, doctor.” He is a success story.
everyone has such a success story. Everyone also has many sad stories.
despite the many sad stories, we shouldnt allow ourselves to wallow in cynicism. not everyone can be cured. i have seen many deaths but i ensure they die with dignity.
Yes, exactly. As doctors, we should know our limits and make decisions appropriately. There is no point prolonging death in many irreversible medical conditions. It is better to let them die with dignity!
Is IMU recognised worldwide? I wanna work in Aus or UK in the future.
IMU (local) MBBS is not, IMU (PMS) degrees are recognised in the respective PMS countries, eg, If the PMS is an Aussie uni, your MBBS degree will be awarded by the Aussie uni, thus recognised in Australia and most major medical councils worldwide, subject to medical practice licensing exams.
NOPE unless you take their twinning program and graduate from the twinning university.
Hi doctor. I would like to ask if i done with local MBBS programme in IMU, will i be able to qualify for oversea unis for postgraduate course?
If you care to read the postings in this blog, you would already know the answer it has been asked and answered a few times, it’s a NO. Maybe you can help spread the word as well. IMU should really have a FAQ section for specialisation pathways.
Nope but you can still sit for MRCP, MRPCH and MRCOG in Malaysia
is this means that it is impossible for a local medical degree holder (except UM and UKM ) to further study at overseas? we are not even given the chance to sit for entrance exam? simply impossible? it will really be a sad case for me as I really hope to do postgraduation overseas…..
Not totally impossible. Firstly, your degree must be listed under the WHO listing. Then you must sit and pass the entrance exam of the country where you want to practice. After spending thousands of ringgit sitting for the exams and passing, there is also no guarantee that you will get a post in the respective country for training.So, you can try your luck but looking at the current scenario in UK, Australia, NZ etc, it is almost impossible.
http://www.ecfmg.org/
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/plab.asp
http://www.med.mun.ca/pgme/home.aspx
Dr Pagavalan, I just read the section on “acceptable primary qualifications” on GMC’s website.
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp
The Avicenna Directory lists 14 of Malaysia’s medical schools. This gives the impression that while these 14 medical schools may be in the Avicenna Directory, it may not be “currently acceptable to the GMC”. Is this correct, or am I wrong in my understanding, since you have said that none of our medical degrees are currently recognised by the GMC. Thanks.
As long as the degree is acceptable by GMC aka listed in avicena directory, you can sit for the PLAB exams. It does not mean that the degree is recognised by GMC.
“To be eligible to sit the PLAB test or apply for GMC registration…..”. I was thrown by the latter.
In order to apply for provisional registration with GMC, you need to sit and pass the PLAB exam.
I have met quite a few Indian nationals doing their training in the UK. It seems to be a thing among the Indians to sit for PLAB and then further their training in the UK. Not so common among Malaysians. So far I have only known 1 respiratory registrar who is a graduate from IMU locally. Her husband is a UK graduate currently a cardiology registrar.
Most of them apply for non-training jobs first and are at the mercy of their consultants whether to sign them off as competent at certain level before entering the training system.
A few Indian nationals you mentioned are those who have postgraduate training. I have met a female newly-graduated orthopedics, surgeon, obstetrics who become psychiatric, Forensic pathology, cardiothoracic SHO, etc. they become SHO/registrar at the lower rank/level
They might or might not have a training post – mostly they are staff registrars of the hospital – as the UK border has tightened its door to foreign doctors including international medical graduates who graduate in UK to work in UK
Indians nationals are the highest international medical graduates who apply to US, UK and Australia.
A few Indian nationals you mentioned are those who have postgraduate training in India before going to UK ( they have MD (DNB )
no, that’s not true. i have met those with just a undergraduate degree. it is possible. and yes, not everyone can have a training but that is not impossible. As a matter of fact, one of them is working with me at the moment. She was just signed off by the consultant as F2 competent. Hence, she can now apply for core medical training.
it is still possible for international medical graduates who graduate in the UK to work in the UK. firstly, as a fresh UK graduate, your visa for F1 and F2 (housemanship) you are still under a student visa. And once you have progressed after that, your salary will enable you to apply for Tier 2 visa. And being a UK graduate will mean you have fulfilled the language criterion.
When the ruling came into place initially, there was much fear among international students whether they can stay after graduation. The British Medical Association fought for the rights of international students. I guess they found a way to circumvent the law. Hence, all international students graduating in the UK are given similar priorities as home students for housemanship.
With regard to BMA fighting for the rights of international students from UK medical schools, is there a reference to this?
jaz, i cannot find any references to this. but i remember as a student, there was much hype about it. Basically BMA was saying international students paid the full fees and come to Britain believing that they have the right to continue their training post graduation.
I know they have stopped the post-study visa. hence, alot of other disciplines such as engineering and finance students have problem looking for a job in Britain after graduation because they need to find a sponsor and need to achieve a certain level of salary, which is not achievable as fresh graduate.
Not so with medicine because their housemanship is still under the general student visa.
Btw, I still get student discounts when I was an F1 and F2! I never understand why!
Because you are on Tier 4 visa, therefore technically a student, although you are paid. Good arrangement 🙂
It is no secret the health care services prefer British trained doctors, including international students, as obviously, they have no language difficulty, and they are fully conversant with the health care system. On the other hand, EU doctors have lots of problem with English and communication. However, being part of the EU, the UK needs to comply with the rules. Like all rules, there are ways to circumvent, and thus you have the categorisation of FY as ‘student’, and using interviews and English to select people they prefer.
I can’t recall if the BMA really did get involved, but the likelihood of Non-EU UK medical graduates not being given fair chance to enter foundation training was remote anyway. In the UK, Foundation training (or “Housemanship” if you’re from a previous generation like me) has always been viewed as the completion phase of the undergraduate medical course. After all, it would be rather pointless undertaking an undergraduate medical degree if one did not then go on to complete the 12 months of supervised clinical training required to get full registration with the GMC.
Till today, the total number of medical students allowed at UK universities is regulated to match the number of Foundation jobs available. Also, all UK universities rely on overseas student fees for a significant portion of their revenue. No UK medical school would risk jeopardising its overseas sales appeal by failing to assure Foundation training places to its medical undergrads.
The problem with insufficient UK Foundation posts for all applicants in recent years relates not so much to an excess of UK medical students, but to an increase in mainland EU applicants as the EU has grown.
What I would have to say is if a UK medical student cannot beat-off 99% of EU medical students trying to “deprive” him/her of a Foundation training post, that candidate must be one of the poorest performing in his/her class. Foundation training falls under Tier 4 regulations, so competition is on equal footing.
Thank you for the responses, Jeffery, jk, and Jon J. Much appreciated.
You can receive higher quality training in UK as the number of training posts will be more available. In addition, you pay nothing to “receive” training and no bonds, much better salary ( $ 35-45 thousand per year/ circa $ 3-4 thousand per month )
http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/view-article.html?id=20013762
Are you currently studying/practicing in the UK?
I checked out the link. It is mentioned only that jobs would be increased, not exactly training posts. People may be tricked to believe that they would be pursuing training jobs leading to specialisation, but at the end most likely doing service jobs for the rest of their lives.
Also one must be informed that due to EU legislations, priority of employment must be given to EU/EEA nationals. Frankly speaking, I feel that UK is closing its doors to foreigners.
By the way, the pay scales isn’t that impressive especially for those who are working in and around London and other major cities. The cost of living is rather high.
I hope Jon and Luk can give their input about this article.
GP, it is possible they may only be opening more clinical fellow posts ie non-training posts to fill in the gaps. This year the training jobs are fully filled up in Wales, where traditionally, they depend on locums to fill the empty gaps.
However, all UK medical graduates (or those who meet the visa requirements) are given the same priority in employment. The way they ensure this is that the healthboard usually publish the job open to all EU nationals. Those shortlisted (including non-EU citizens) will then go for interview. In this way, they can select the best person for the job saying that there are no suitable EU citizens to fill the post.
So it is not all doom at gloom. At least not now.
Yup, service jobs as in non-training posts. Interesting point regarding training posts being filled up rapidly.
WIth regards to employment, I was always under the impression that priority is always given to EU/EEA nationals, despite qualifications or language issues.
Thanks for clarifying.
I used to .
if your medical school is NOT on WHO List, you can send mail/email with reference from your dean explaining that your school will be soon on WHO list. the main thing is you MUST pass PLAB before applying post.
Training in UK is much better : more structured, decent salary, no tuition fee, more chance of moving to Australia since you have western experience, worldwide recognition
Training in Malaysia, less structured, must pay tuition fee, local ( only Malaysia ) recognition.
http://medicine.med.nyu.edu/education/im-residency-homepage/salary-and-benefits
http://bma.org.uk/practical-support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales-juniors
I believe those with MRCS and other membership qualifications from UK would be exempted from doing the PLAB to work in UK
Not really! With the prevailing immigration laws, unlikely you will get a job.
This is correct. Attainment of a royal college postgrad diploma (eg: MRCP, MRCS, MRCGP) means that one is exempt from PLAB requirement. But given that PLAB is substantially easier, you can imagine which route most foreign doctors take in the first instance.
Very interesting and correct. I’m a doctor in nigeria. Studying medicine here takes six years, housemanship is one year, service is one year. I must confess, I regret studying medicine. My parents made me study medicine, of course with the above misconceptions. Initially, I had the passion and really studied hard through medical school. I finished service a year ago, currently working as a medical officer. But I don’t feel fulfilled at all. Since after medical school, I’ve lost passion for medicine. It kept dwindling after school, and right now, I’m thinking of what else I can do. I just wish I knew this before medical school.
what is your opinion about Numed,New Castle University Medical? I’m in preparation for pursuing my study there.
better than most of the other universities but nor great. They are still struggling to get lecturers. Almost all the lecturers are foreigners but they do have about 10-20% lecturers from their UK medical schools.
Greetings doctor.
Do you any opinion on MBBS programe in Segi University?
New and have not produced any graduates. So, no comment
Have you heard about MBBS in Asia Metropolitan University? Is it okay and really recognized by the MMC and accredited by MQA since the pre-clinical programme is in Malaysia but the clinical will be in India? Normally, since we are going to work in Malaysia, clinical year should be in Malaysia itself instead of at other countries. Do you have any opinions on this as I need some review on MBBS in Asia Metropolitan University?
And can you explain the difference between MD and MBBS programme?
Thank you doctor. Good day to you.
I won’t bother. The degree will be from the university that you are doing the twinning program with, in India. If it is already recognised by MMC, that there is no problem in terms of recognition.
The degree is from the Asia Metropolitan University itself, the clinical year will Be in Chennati Hospital In India. They claimed they have been recognized by MMC but I’ve check The list with MMC and their university neither in Malaysia nor india, both are not enlisted. Do you have any comments on this doctor?
Thank you sir.
Then, I would NOT advise you to do medicine in this college.
hi. doc. it’s my first time comment here. can I ask you a few questions?
1. I am currently a form 6 student who dream to study medicine overseas. Is there a lot of scholarships out there for me to apply?
2. considering the malaysia situation is so bad now, isn’t better for us to finish our masters overseas before coming back to Malaysia?
3. Besides medicine/pharmacy/dentistry/engineering, do you know any good science field out there that is allow us to earn a good living?
Hope to hear from you soon. thx
For a sixth form student, you are definitely not resourceful, which is rather surprising!
All your questions have already been answered directly or indirectly in this blog. There is a search option in this blog. Please try to key in keywords and you are bound to find what you are looking for!
Actually, it’s no longer surprising. What is baffling is what these students are actually doing with their time with resources aplenty, to find out exactly what they want to know.
Maybe, just maybe, education means just memorising stuff, regurgitate and full stop.Thus straight As means nought.
All straight A nowadays mean nothing. Of course not all of them but when I talk to some of them, I feel that they got no idea of what is happening out there. I don’t blame them but the education system is to be blamed.
Firstly, I think you should spend more time reading this blog. Almost all the answers are there.
1) Scholarship for medicine is only provided by JPA. The rest are loans. However, due to oversupply of doctors soon, JPA likely will stop any overseas scholarship for medicine.
2) You can only do this if your degree is recognised overseas. With the same scenario happening in UK, Australia, canada etc, the chances are slim. Unless you do your medical education overseas and manage to get a job over there, it is difficult.
3) What makes you think the jobs mentioned gives you a good living ? There are so many jobs out there which gives a better living than what you had mentioned. It is luck and creativity that gives you a good living. A degree is just for you to start off. Most millionaires and philanthropist are not “well” educated.
hi there, perhaps these answers might be helpful:
1. re scholarships: For bumiputeras there are MARA and JPA scholarships. JPA scholarships are also available to non bumis. I am not sure about other scholarships – perhaps GP and the commentators above can help. I myself could not find any previous posts relating to this.
2. getting into the masters scheme seems to be the bottleneck in malaysia (ie hard to get into). Also a malaysian masters scheme is usually limited recognition outside malaysia. In that light, its probably worth doing your masters in a country with a more developed medical system – perhaps singapore, australia, UK or north america.
3. this is too general a question. there are plenty of other fields to earn a good living. actually any field can earn you a good living if you are good at what you do or the demand of your trade far outweighs the supply. Fields you can consider include arts, finance, investment banking, management etc – its unlimited. finally there is always being an entrepreneur – the payoff if successful can be very handsome.
To correct the above:
There are no more scholarships under JPA for medicine. There is still scholarships for getting entry into a top 10 uni, but the latest word is, they don’t give for medicine any more. So the short answer is, NO more medicine scholarships overseas for non-bumis.
There is no such thing as ‘Masters’ postgraduate specialisation outside of Msia (and perhaps, Singapore). Details about postgraduate pathways is in one of the threads here.
There is no guarantee that graduates from these places will still be able to get jobs in the future. Postgraduate training is very competitive and very merit based, so you really need to be outstanding, especially in popular areas.
I am curious about MARA. Are they still giving out scholarships for medicine? Last I heard was that there isn’t any bond for Mara students, hence many of them are living and working in countries like Australia, UK, Ireland and even in postgraduate training.
MARA is convertible loan with no bond!
I understand MARA have stopped giving out loans/scholarships (medicine) for the UK, but still do for Ireland. I am not sure about Australia. These loans are convertible (into scholarships) if scholars do well, it seems. Would love to know more about how It actually works as well.
Mara is an ‘extra-budget’ agency, where like Petronas, details of policies, accounts, etc are never made know publicly.
Superficially, it is known that they give loans, which is converted into scholarships for ‘good performance’. What ‘good performance’ means, and whether monies are really collected back from non-‘good performance’ students, is unknown.
There is technically no bond, so many overseas graduates stay on to work. On the other hand, JPA has in recent years, been strict in insisting all scholars return for Housemanship, unless they break the bond and pay up.
hi
Hi, doctor..
1. I’m STPM leavers and I have passion to the medic when I was Form 3. I heard many people say about there is a lots of doctors in Malaysia. My sister ( JPA scholarship ) who also study medic in Indonesia advise me to study at Indonesia or India, because in there you will have more practical training compare to the local and even more cheaper than some private universities like IMU. She said that sometimes she would help patient to give birth 2 times a day. So, it’s good for studying oversea like India or Indonesia?
Personally, I think practical training is very important if you want to be experienced doctor.
2. Is there any job demand if I’m further study for postgraduate? I’m interested in Immunology and I wish in future I can be a Immunologist. Is there any job demand for Immunologist in Malaysia?
and what is difference between Medic and Biomedic?
Well,I am a SPM leaver.I really want to get into medicine field and I want to become a surgeon.So I am planning to get into MSU college at Shah Alam.Do you think MSU is good enough or can I work at overseas if I get into that college? Any suggestions doctor?
MSU is not recognised elsewhere. Thus you will not be able to work ovreseas
Good evening Dr Pagalavan.. I am currently on my first year MD… as i was reading your blog, this question cm to my mind.. is there by any chance for me to shorten the compulsary service period which after the housemanship???
Not at the moment but sometimes you can apply to delay.
Good morning Dr Pagalavan, I m currently an international student at taylors university in malaysia. Is it true that I would find it hard to get housemanships? And i have read your posts and it is not recognized much by other countries. May I have some advice or opinions?
Malaysia do not provide housemanship to foreigners unless you are married to a local or a PR over here.
Hello doc..
i just want to ask u whether um certificate recognised by many universities locals and overseas?? In medic..
Only Singapore
HI Doc, thanks for the article…i am a 4th year med student and i have some questions..i am going to have my professional exam next year in april but i am really motivated to study for MRCP…my dream is to be an internist…i know its still too early for me…i just want to have yr expert opinion on this..another question would be..what Books did you use for yr MRCP part 1 n 2..thank you Doc
Your answer are available in this blog. Please read” step by step approach in internal medicine specialisation”
There are plenty of books in the market.
Hi Dr, I’ve been a keen reader in following your blog posts and was weighing options for IMU MBBS and PMC for my daughter. Hoping you could shed some light on this. Thank you!
Dear dr. Pagalavan, what is the future prospect of being an army doctor? Is it secure than a civilian doctor?
The post are very much limited but no one stays as army doctor for long.
Good evening doctor, thank you for your article, I found it very useful. 🙂 I would like to know if I studied abroad, is it a must to come back to Malaysia and do my housemanship? Can I get a job overseas immediately after my mbbs? Thank you. 🙂
If you are self sponsored, of course you can
Dear Doctor, I have registered mys son with NuMed program this year. I know that it is not recognised in Australia and UK even though GMC provides a provisional registration. As a matter of fact none of the medical colleges (overseas) are recognised by Australian Medical council for direct registration barring a few conditions of overseas Foundation years 1 in UK and 2 years in the US. The question I have is that my son would like to sit for AMC exams and USMLE exams soon after completing the program for getting accreditation in those countries. Would that be possible? I am of the opinion that it is currently not possible as NuMed is not listed in IMED/Avacenne directories yet. Once they get listed it may become possible to sit the exams. What are the chances that NuMed getting listed as MMC has recognised the institution ( verbally) this month and can I assume that it is only a matter of time that NuMed will get IMED listing confirmed through Malaysia medical system? For AMC/USMLE exams registration, the MBBS awarding institution (Campus) must be listed in IMED/FAIMER or Avacenna. Am I correct? Please advise.
Once MMC gives the accreditation, the university must apply to IMED for listing.
Why you did not try Monash? It is recognised by AMC.
Sitting for AMC and USMLE is not the problem. The problem is getting a job after passing the exams.With the current internship situation in Australia, even Monash Malaysia graduates are not getting jobs in Australia ( less than 10 last 2 years), what more for those who pass AMC.
Dear Doctor, Thanks for your advise and we appreciate it very much. It seems that NuMed will be listed in IMED very soon as per their verbal confirmation. All we are after is that a candidate after graduation should be able to be recognised to sitfor AMC exams. My wife is a specialist FRACP, FRCP(UK) and FRCP(Edin), working as a Director of Physician Training and closely engaged in providing Work place based training ( Internship) in AMC part 2 for overseas medical graduates. She went through the AMC pathway 21 years ago although she finished MD from India. She also mentioned that getting an Internship is an issue but there may be opportunities in rural QLD or rural NSW to commence work as a Junior Medical Officer after successfully passing AMC part 1 and after one year of work experience, try to get AMC part 2 through work placed based program or directly sit for AMC part 2. A work placed based AMC part 2 provides opportunity for placement as a RMO in the same hospital. We have to take the risk that it will happen for him. We are Australian citizens settled here for the past 23 years. Being a UK degree offered at NuMed and the stiff competition for local medicine even after scoring over 95 ATAR, we resorted to this option…but apparently found that (only lately) it is still to be listed in IMED. we were told that it will happen very soon by the office of admission and they are working on it as the first batch graduated in June 2014 from NuMed. We knew that getting a Foundation year in the UK is equivalent to milking a BULL. There is little effect to get GMC provisional registration.
Considering the standard and infrastructure in many Indian and Caribbean little known universities who are already listed in IMED, we have an optimistic view that NuMed will also get listed in IMED soon. Some Caribbean colleges run their medical programs on top of a shopping mall with basic infrastructure and are listed in IMED. My son had admissions from Manipal, SRM and MGR and many Caribbean universities leading to clinical rotations in the US after 2 years and eventually an opportunity to do residency on passing USMLE as part of the MD curriculum. But he has not considered that yet although the admissions are still valid to Sep 2014. NuMed seems to have all that is going for a good clinical training and spiral curriculum being new and with better facilities…and very importantly closer to Australia.
The only issue in our minds is that how long will it take NuMed to get listed after MMC accepts them and what it takes to get it listed in Avacenna / IMED register. As you pointed out passing AMC is not a big deal for a student with a high caliber but getting job placement is hard in Australia!!! We have the know how and seen many students who are International Medical Graduates(IMG) secured placement through work place based program (AMC Part 2) as intern and then as JMO selected by the local hospital. We may consider ourselves in a better position and better informed of the registration pathways through AMC but our only concern is the ability to SIT the exams (AMC or USMLE) which can only happen if NuMed gets listed in IMED. We anxiously await for that to happen soon as without the IMED listing there is no way a student even take the exams of AMC and USMLE although the degree is conferred from UK but the campus is not recogonised unless it is listed in IMED. Monash advised that although my son is an OCI (Indian) but born and studied in Australia and as such an Australian citizen, they will not consider his application for admission although he had the credentials for admission. It is heartening to note that many housewives ( who are also doctors from India) after migration of 2 years after the husband get accreditation as doctors found employment through AMC programs. We are yet to see one family in which both are not getting employment for a longer period than 6-12 months considering they are permanent residents only not citizens. It is some what comforting as we are close to that community but until that happens nothing is sure. Hope the investment in NuMed yields results that my son wants to achieve as a doctor here in Australia.
Regards
Nagesh
Thanks for your comment. Since you are an Australian, should not have any problems as long as you can pass AMC exams.
Dear doctor,
Hello Doctor, I’m Bachelor of Medical Science graduate from Management and Science University MSU (shah alam). I have intentions of studying MBBS in MSU. Meanwhile I have also received offer letter from Melaka Manipal. For now I’m having difficulty in choosing the right uni to pursue my MBBS programe. So just want to seek your advice doctor. Please advise me to choose the uni between MSU and MELAKA MANIPAL in terms of quality of education and recognition of the degree and which would be a better option doctor ?
Thank you doctor.
Both are not recognised elsewhere. But Melaka Manipal is more well established
Thank You very much doctor.
Dear Doctor Pagalavan,
i would to ask you whether is it better to go for IMU-PMS twinning programme or studying at Singapore? Im very keen to do MBBS and becoming a cardiologist. I need help with this doctor. please assist me
Both are OK depending where you want to work later
I am planning to work in Singapore if I can. and I ran through the list of universities in uk that is recognised by SG. so, if I went for IMU twinning and received a degree from a university in uk(lets say it is recogn. by SMC) , is it better? or shud i opt for NUS medicine application? and NUS is kinda tough to enter right?
Yes for your first statement. If you graduate from the overseas university which is recognised by SMC, you can work in Singapore.
NUS is difficult to get in.
Hello Doctor Pagalavan,
I am writing because I am in a huge dilemma and I am seeking an an advice.. I am a medical student who has completed her first year overseas in University o f Edinburgh (UK), and I am meant to return for second year next month. However, although i passed my exams with decent results, I find that I am not really interested in the stuff that I am learning…
That leads me to thinking whether I should continue or not… Despite the lack of interest, i feel that I am able to pass the exams and I plan to come back to open a non-invasive cosmetic clinic which i think may have market in Malaysia.. However, to get there, after reading your posts I am worried that I may not even get a position doing housemanship which seems to be the case in M’sia now… Does that mean that getting a degree overseas is just spending unnecessary money and gives no advantage if i do not do my housemanship there as well?
After talking to many doctors and medical students, i found that many felt like quitting in their first two years but loved it in their fourth or fifth year…However there are many who hate their jobs their entire lives because they never had the courage to quit.. At the end of the day, i think having a clinic as stated above gives a stable pay (if not much) and is less risky. The con is of course not being particularly interested in the things I am learning like diseases, drugs (contraindications and side effects etc)-but many of my friends hate it as well and they are continuing as long as they pass.
Hence I would like to ask for your opinion because I have thought about it for a long time and considered many factors and I am still unsure of my course of action.
I hope you take the time to read thru my lengthy comment and kindly reply me…
Thank you..
It looks like you are doing medicine just for job security and money. That is wrong to start with. Remember after 2 years of housemanship, you still have 2 years of compulsory service even before being able to open your clinic. I don’t understand what you mean by “non-invasive cosmetic clinic”. This are done by beauticians, not doctors. Only those that involve needles and injections cannot be done by beauticians and thus need a doctor.
So, if your intention is just that, then you are just wasting your time and money. You could have just done your degree locally than spending thousands abroad.
Some may end up liking medicine when they enter clinical years. So, it’s either you quit now or wait till clinical years and see whether you will be interested.
Thank you, Dr Pagalavan for your reply. What I meant was cosmetic related procedures like fillers and botox ( so i guess they are invasive, my mistake) rather than plastic surgery. In M’sia I realise that many beauticians do the above despite not being qualified to do it, but i believe that in future people will be more conscious about their safety and may opt to go to a doctor despite the higher price. ( Or am i wrong? )
I understand that in medicine, people need “passion/interest” to do well, but I feel that in any field, after doing the same thing over and over again, there would ultimately be no “passion” anyway and it is just a way of getting through life. Hence, if someone can get through medical school and housemanship and all but would be potentially unhappy with life, would you recommend him/her to continue?
Actually, to be frank, most GPs are going into aesthetic medicine to survive. Most patients in Malaysia tend to choose cheaper product than quality!
As for passion, you are right. Most people will get bored after some time. That’s why the interest in medicine should be there even before you start working.
“a doctor’s salary is only RM 200 more than a pharmacist in civil service!”
What are you trying to imply here by that comparison?
I am not implying anything. I am telling the truth!!many people out there believe that doctors are earning much more than any other field!
great insight…you have expressed all the nuances of current scenario of medical practice….job is tough and only patience, perseverance and passion will win at last….It is no more a cake walk…or no more a path covered with rosebuds…
Hi Doc,
My daughter is currently undergoing 2nd year Bsc in Biochemical Engineering in UMP and she is struggling as she has no interest in Engineering. She has passion in Medicine all the while but I think due to poor SPM result she did not get Medicine course and now it breaks my heart to see her condition. So I guess quitting that course and go for private college in Medicine or related will be the best.
Her SPM results as follows:
Bahasa Malaysia – A+
Math – A+
English A
Islam A-
History B+
Chemistry B+
ADD Math B+
Bio C+
Physics C+
Matriculation:
Bio – A
Math – A-
Physics – A-
Chemistry – A-
English – B
MUET – Band 3
CGPA – 3.71
Please advise can she go for MBBS if not any related courses
Thank you
Hanifah
Based on SPM results and the Minimum criteria, she do not qualify for medicine. Please see HERE
Thank you Doc. Any other related courses? Is there a possibility for her to change course to other IPTA?
probably can try pharmacy/dentistry.Changing IPTA is not easy but you need to ask the uni
Hi Dr! I am a medical student currently study at local university. I have received 2 offers of scholarship. One is jpa which I need to bond for 10 years. The other one is from Kuok foundation which I need to pay back half of the scholarship after graduate but no bond. So I would like to ask opinion from Dr on which scholarship should I accept?
If you are planning to do specialisation, than take JPA scholarship
Good afternoon doctor. I am a high school graduate and am currently waiting for my results. Based on the minimum requirement to enroll into Manipal University in Malacca, I think I can wing it. With the twinning course and after my housemanship, what are the options available for me to get a head start on my career? Also, is Manipal a good choice? I did some thorough thinking and I hope it is an excellent choice to pursue my studies. And, after working in Malaysia for say 5 years, is there a way for me to move to the States and continue working? Or any other country in that matter. Thank you.
Melaka Maniple degree is not recognised elsewhere. Thus, you will not be able to work anywhere else.
Even India do not recognise Melaka Manipal.
Please read all the information in this blog about medical degree.
Hello doctor, im ella,21. I received my results in cambridge alevels in science and it was a bummer, i got BBC and ive always wanted to do medicine. based on the requirement, i wasnt qualified to do medicine anywhere in malaysia with my poor results. Most unis that ive consulted asked me to do foundation in science in order to do medicine. Do u think i should go for it, or do my biomedical science degree and go on from there? Is there future for bomedical undergraduates in malaysia?
Before going into any field , do a research on what each field is all about. Don’t jump on something based on prospect as it changes with time. Who would have thought that doctors can become jobless?
hi doctor . i am spm leavers and currently waiting for my result . i just want to ask , is it true that nowadays too many people choose medic as their course and for that medic has already full ? actually i love calculating . so ive been thinking about to take actuarial science . but im interested in medic too because i really want to become a doctor because i want to help and treat people . what should i do ? thank you 🙂
Have you read this blog!! Please go to home page and read all!
Hi!doctor!i would want to ask u something!i got schlorship in bangladesh!but i started nursin in my own country under schlorship!ialso belong to low middle class family n i even don’t know about how múch i need to pay in bangladesh !so please give a right suggestion for me!!
I got no idea. Are you a Malaysian or a Bangladeshi?
Hi Doctor! I am currently waiting for my SPM results and having a big confusion on what am I going to do after my results. MEDICINE or DENTISTRY? What are the prospects of dentistry in Malaysia for the future? Does dentistry earns you enough to make a lucrative living in near future? Is dentistry better than medicine? I need your help doctor.
the moment you said” a lucrative life” , you are already heading the wrong pathway! Nothing is guaranteed in the future
Hi, doctor. Can I know the path of going to Singapore for housemanship if I graduate in UM/UKM for medicine? Is it compulsory to work in Malaysia for 2 years(houseman) + 2 years of service(after houseman) before going overseas to work?
If you are self sponsored, than you can go anytime after graduating. If you are government sponsored than you are bonded for 10 years with the government
Thanks for replying, doctor. If I am plan to be self-sponsored, then how to apply to go Singapore for housemanship? It should be very competitive, right? Of taking up a JPA scholarship and other private scholarship, which one is better? Because I know that I will be bonded for 10 years if I take JPA but this is like job security?. Moreover, I heard that working with government will have higher chance to continue master programme afterwards?
you need to apply directly to their hospitals. It is under 2 big companies : Singhealth and NHI.
JPA scholarship will give you guaranteed job with the government which is definitely be useful in the future with limited jobs.
Master’s program is mainly limited to government servants. It is almost impossible to get into as a private student.
Doctor, can I know the chances of getting a housemanship in Singapore? How many of Malaysian Medicine graduates managed to enter per year? Only a few? Their criteria in choosing is based on the academic result? If I go to Singapore for houseman, then is it that I am limited to study my master there by own funding?
If you a UM or UKM graduate, chances are good. Most who apply may get it as long as your English is good. There is no such thing as Master’s in Singapore. They are into residency program.
I have Band 5 in Muet but is this good enough for them to accept because Malaysia and Singapore have different standards, right? So, the residency program is just like Master?
They will decide based on your interview. Residency system follows the US system
Can I know more about the residency system? Is it written on this blog? I have read the post on “For Future Doctors: Housemanship, Medical Officer and Postgraduate” and I have some questions.
1) the residency is equivalent to master?
2) all these exams :MRCP (UK) – Internal Medicine, MRCPCH (UK) – Paediatric and MRCOG (UK) are entrance into master program in Malaysia? Or considered as exam for the gazettement as a specialist?
3)The 4-year master programme is full time studying?
4) Can I know whether doctor took JPA or self-sponsored?
Tqvm.
I think you should spend more time reading this blog, all informations under For future doctors page. All answers are there!
In medicine there NO such thing as full time studying once you graduate!
Hi Dr. Could you shed some light as to whether Malaysian pediatricians can practice in China? In other words, are Malaysian pediatric degrees recognized by the Chinese? Thanks.
Not that I know of
good day dr, i am currently on second posting of housemanship but it seems i cant really hold a grip of the current working stress that i had. would it be possible if i quit medicine and doing pharmacy instead?
Of course you can but you need to do Bachelor in Pharmacy. Sometimes they may exempt you for a year.
Hi,Dr.I’m a secondary student and I wish to become a doctor in future. I’m studying in a private school right now and I’m going to take the Singapore GCE O level next year. The problem is I heard that if you want to become a doctor in Malaysia, you must take the SPM instead of other exam, or you will not able to be a doctor in Malaysia(even in a private hospital). Is that a truth?
Anyone can become a doctor as long as you pass medical school. You need to spend some time reading this blog from A-Z, under For Future Doctors page to understand what medicine is all about.
However, if you intend to work in Malaysia, you need to have a Credit in SPM Bahasa Malaysia paper. If not you will not get housemanship job. FYI, you need to do atleast 4 years compulsory service with the government, 2 years of which is housemanship. So, there is no such thing as working in private immediately after you graduate.
Thanks for your reply~
Hi Dr. Pagalavan,
Looking at the questions you receive I’m all the more worried for the Malaysian healthcare industry, seeing as most of the people here haven’t much passion in medicine to speak of. However I must say that I’m impressed at your effort to answer most comments all through these years. I really appreciate all the advice, seeing as I’m about to start at IMU soon. Thank you so much!
Yours Sincerely,
Pearly Quek
As I keep saying, most do medicine for wrong reasons and complain later!
Hi Dr. Pagavalan, hope you are well.
First of all, i apologize if my questions below might sound inconvenience to you. However, your background convince me that you may be the right person to be asked for.
I just google-out something about medical doctor’s life and accidentally directed me to your blog. I am not in a medical line though; but my fiancee is just graduated from oversea med-school. (to be certain, Russia). Thus;
1. Does marriage influence difficulties in HO’s selection?
2. We’ve heard rumors saying that local graduates would be preferable than their oversea’s counterpart in the selection process. Is it true Dr?
3. Usually how long would it take for the applicants to receive the HO’s feedback should she apply the post at East Malaysia?
4. Is there any medicine graduates unemployed so far?
Your best regards.
1) marriage does not have any issues in getting housemanship but your partner can be sent anywhere in Malaysia to do her/his housemanship.Even after Housemanship, you can be sent anywhere.Generally, I would suggest all fresh graduates not to get married during housemanship or atleast not to get pregnant.
2) NO but local grads apply for housemanship while they are in the university.
3) Currently, east Malaysia waiting period is much shorter, can even be 1-2 months.
4) Not for graduates with recognised degree or with SPM Bahasa.
Hi, dr I would just like to know my sister obtained 2b1c in her alevels examination but has a great interest and passion in doing medicine. Wht is a better alternative for her to continue her dream to have a better prospect of job in the future? Should she do foundation in science or resit her paper? And what do you think about the medical program in lincoln university College? Is it a good place for a better career in the future?
7 months down the line, I am back to comment !
7 months ago , I return to Malaysia after 5 years in India .. only to find out my university is not recognized?? What ?? Mind you that I am a PSD ( JPA) student and I took it for granted that it would be recognized ! How wrong I was!
2 universities decided to become deemed universities after we enrolled- separating themselves from Rajiv Gandhi university – and these universities did not inform MMC nor JPA regarding their MCI status –
So a group of us were faced with MQE dillemma, we had to contact MCI to get the status, went through the syllabus, contacted all the authorities ( with some lukewarm responses and many cold shudders) and went through MMC, JPA and what not – Took me a good 4 months to get my temporary license done ! – such a blessing !! ( we had prepared for the worst ! )
The waiting period has just begun !
After SPA – 2 months waiting for interview and still waiting for appointment order so I can apply for E-housemen..
Take home message – PLEASE ENSURE UR COLL IS RECOGNIZED !! not will be , later-can-kau-tim, meet-some-datuks but ensure it black and white or not just walk away !
In all this confusion, I met so many parents who forked out their money to send their children to unrecognized universities .. It is heart breaking to watch their face in MMC building when their child cannot apply for their license – Were they that naive ? or plain ignorant ? or just the later-we-can-kau-tim attitude?
I had parents who approached me to ask for ‘inside’ contact number so that they can push their child through – One final year student ( Bangladesh uni) wanting to apply MMC license without giving final exams – From Ukraine, and EU countries with huge bank loan tied to their name
Advice from random parents – Never fork out huge sum of loan , refinance house, withdraw EPF , PTPTN – If u cant afford it , you CANT afford it .
Post student life – I realize life is tough and truly humbling – with medicine degree and no other experience , It is so difficult for me to find a job in KL ! Either I am over -qualified , or no experience – no locums easily available ( if u secretly thinking about it – private GPs are cutting their cost as well and its illegal to work without full license too! ) – I dont even mention my degree sometimes during job interview..
With no financial support nor ‘recommendations’, I have to settle for rm 1K plus job along side with foreign workers as my collegues – Enough to cover my food, phone bill, health card and perhaps a 2nd hand Kancil to move about !
A price to pay when you are all brains but a newbie in the streets !
When life is like ‘kais pagi makan pagi’ – the naive desire to give out free medical service and I want to help the poor slowly slips out the door .Even with HO pay + work load = it is the survival of the fittest! I do cherish my internship experience in rural India – and still have the passion for medicine but it is wise to be practical – 2 feet on the ground..
I am more prepared mentally now to join gov hosp for my HO – and slowly work myself up from there – to gain more skills and to look for opportunites to grow in my field .
The waiting period for internship is slowly increasing – up to 10 months now .. During that period if you have parents to feed you still , then you are a lucky !
Like Dr Pagalavan says – Passion is one thing but living a life is another – Now I have a mere glimpse of that statement .
To my juniors out there
Educate yourselves – read blog on finance,loans, credit card n repayments .
Get more experience apart from academics
Be humble– you will get lots of ego thrashing moments in and out medical school
READ about Medico-legal laws – better still talk to your parents lawyer friends
Ask your parents of their monthly balance sheet and household budget n loans to get an idea
Do some deep questioning — your passion ? glamour? ideal work timings? how many children to have? time to spend with family? — write in a journal
and to Dr Pagalavan – thank you for your blog !
Thank you for your comment. Interesting how JPA sent their students into this type of limbo. As I had always said, check with MMC and not anyone else. Only MMC recognition matters.We have a very ignorant society out there who do not know the reality. That’s the reason I started this blog but still no one listens.
Doc, is it true that STPM students almost having no chance of getting admitted into public uni medical school?
It is becoming difficult! Unless you are a top scorer, the chances are almost minimal as matriculation students seem to be getting the major bulk of the post.
Hi Sir
Thanking you for guiding us with all your time and effort. All the negative comments shall be truly valid. But what everyone looking for is a hope and empowerment…bright side of pursuing a career in medicine, and we will treasure someone who have shown on how to achieve our dreams. Walk us by pls…
Thanks
I had written everything here. You just have to find it. While I talk more on the reality out there, what a doctor goes through in his life (aka bright side) has also been written. You need to read all the topics under For Future Doctor’s page.
Doctor, what about biomedical sciences? Do you think there is a bright future (in Malaysia) for potential students of that field?
It is a wide field where there are many jobs you can apply. However, you must understand that biomedical science is not specific for any jobs.
Dr, if our medical degrees are not recognised anywhere, what is the solution if one wants to work in a foreign country? Any specific procedure?
as I said, you need to spend more time reading all the informations under ” For Future Doctors” page.
to put it simple: you need to sit and pass the entrance exam of each country which will cost you thousands of ringgits. However, passing this exams do not guarantee you a job in those countries. Australia, New Zealand and UK has almost closed their doors to graduates from outside their country. Even Malaysia do not provide housemanship to foreigners.
Hi Dr, thank you for your reply.
What is the prospect or outlook in terms of job availability for other science related degree programs like Biomedic,Health Science or Bachelor in Science, etc ?
prospect where ? Malaysia or in another country
Hi Dr,
I got C+ for 2014 SPM Physics but have re-sat for 2015 SPM Physics and confident of good grade this time. Do I meet the minimum requirement by MMC (4Bs) by re-sitting and eligble to pursue MBBS ?
Btw I have met the AUSMAT ATAR score of 80% for 2015 sitting.
technically possible
Thank you Dr.
However should I need further confirmation on my situation, can MMC be reached personnaly for clarification?
You can try
Hi doctor, I just finished MBBS 1st year at IMU, not enjoying anything at IMU, neither am I doing well in my studies.
I am currently deciding between engineering, medicine and dentistry. I have an offer for Aeronautics Engineering from ICL, but I am worried about the job prospects, so I applied to NUS for medicine and dentistry, I prefer the dentistry right now. I hope that by going to NUS, things would be better.
So my question is, how difficult is it to get into NUS dentistry, is it more difficult than medicine? Is the standard of NUS higher than IMU? Can you give me some advice on my situation as well? Thank you.
Of course NUS standards are way higher than any medical schools in MALAYSIA . How many have you heard of even getting a place in NUS?
Hi doctor, I just posted a few questions, but I don’t see it, so I’m going to post the questions again.
1. How difficult is it to get into NUS dentistry? Is it harder than getting into NUS medicine?
2. Is the standard of NUS higher than IMU?
3. I’m currently deciding between engineering (I have an offer for Aeronautics Engineering at ICL, but I am worried about the job prospects), medicine and preferably dentistry. Is there any advice you can give?
Thank you.
Hi Doctor, I am a student currently doing A lvls and completing in June this year. I am really interested in becoming a doctor or dentist.
1. I would like to ask if the job prospect for a dentist is better than Doctor in Malaysia? If I finish my dentistry degree in IMU locally, do I have an opportuinity to work overseas like Singapore?
2. How about physiotherapy..do you think this will be in demand in Malaysia in the future? As I heard from my auntie who is a physiotherapist in the US..getting into physio school is even harder than medical schools but becoming a doctor is more rewarding than being a physio even though the curriculum in the physio school is as hard as the medical school. Is this true?
1) We still need more dentist but there are also many new dental schools has been established over the last few years. As far as I know, none is recognised in Singapore. Please check with singapore dental council.
2) Majority of physiotherapist in Malaysia are diploma holders and most hospitals would prefer to hire them as it is cheaper.
hello
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Hi dr, i would like to ask u a few questions,
1)is it OK to futher in medicine in UIA
2) do UIA mbbs graduates have good image in hospital? How about during their h/o??
Thanks a lot, btw just to let u know i got straight A’s in spm 2015, and i’m really eager to become a dr 😊😆
So far I had not heard anything bad about UIA graduates.
Hi Dr,may I ask you some questions.I’m a spm leaver.During the high school,I took account class and don’t have any science knowledge (bio,physic,chem) but my ambition is to be a doctor.Do you think it’s a possible for me to achieve it if I work hard to do it? Is it possible for me to take a medic course at university?
Please read the minimum requirement guideline by MMC
Sir, what about dentistry. The same situation as MBBS in Malaysia?
Please read some of my latest posting and the one I am going to post soon
I am a final year med from Monash Malaysia; would I get a chance to be an intern in Australia after mu graduation. I am not Malaysian, an overseas student.
The chances are getting slimmer year by year. Last year, I think none got it. Please ask your lecturers.
Hi I’m hoping you can help me out. how can an img apply for foundation phase year 1?
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Has Australia or New Zealand recognized UKM graduates for the medicine? I checked it here http://www.amc.org.au/assessment/list-of-medical-schools but I’m not sure if this is where Dr. looks at when checking recognition.
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NO. This are list of medical schools whose graduates can sit for the AMC exams.
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Good day dr, very insightful indeed. Myself being a fresh graduate, this overwhelming feeling of anticipation and anxiety palgues me ona daily basis. Fear of underperforming, anxious on when ill actually get posted or worse if ever..is really saddening but also motivating in some sense. With all this commotion i figured push the bullshit aside and pick up some old notes, mingle with juniors and even shadow some housemans if opportunity presents.. Lets hope and pray for the best for those in our profession..
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Hi doctor, I’m interested in the field of Chiropractic, so how’s the job prospect? Can chiropractors get a position in government hospital? Sorry for taking your time and thank you!
So far I don’t think there are any chiropractors in government sector. It is a new expanding field in Malaysia but quite well established in western world.
Hello doctor. I am interested in anatomical pathology and would like to work at a hospital as a pathologist. Can you give me some advice on how to achieve this? I am an SPM-leaver and currently considering a biomedical degree in University of Nottingham (Malaysia campus). Am I on the right track?
For a pathologist to work in hospital, you must hold an MBBS degree with masters in pathology
Dear Dr,
My son will be completing Year 11 IGCSE this year. He wants to become a Medical Doctor, also specialising in Genetics / Biomedicine / Research & Development. He is thinking of doing foundation course in Msia and further studies in USA or if not given other option, in UK. He attended a short term Medical course in Oxford University, UK last year, received good result / comment cert from them. However, he doesnt like the food and environment there, hence not so keen to return to study there. Being a basketball lover, he prefers USA but im trying to convince him to consider Oxford or any other Universities in UK. However, in the midst of this dilemma, we are confused on where to start. The more we read online, the more confused we get. Is it better for him to do A-Levels or a Foundation Course? Which college in Malaysia would you recommend? What is your advise on twinning / transfer programme? Based on his interert (Medicine, Genetics, Biomedicine, R&D), which country would be a better choice? What and where must he study to be recognised in Malaysia, USA, UK, Germany & Swiss? Looking forward to your expertise advise.
Dear Dr The query below by a father is very interesting to read. Firstly, I did not want to mistake him for boasting about his son… he may well become a Nobel Laureate in the future. What puzzles me is his authenticity in his son given Medicine admission in Oxford and feels sad that it will be rejected by him for the mundane (stupid) reasons quoted about food. I am not aware of any qualification in Medicine provided that is recognised in UK, USA, Germany, Malaysia and Swiss as a blanket coverage. Australia will definitely not recognise Medical degree from any of these countries unless you pass AMC exams and then practising Medicine, to get into a placement is equivalent to Milking Bull. The probability to get placement is ZERO (almost).
My little brain is trying to grasp as how anyone can do a Oxford Medical course from a year 10 student from Malaysia? And further, how anyone without A Level or Year 12 or HSC completion, could think about Foundation course in Medicine? First of all, a student must graduate from school level then think of what’s destined to happen! Ambition should be high but it must also be realistic. I am sorry and express my apologies if this student is a prodigy and next to Einstein. May be he has won the Olympiad Gold medals in Biology, Physics and Chemistry In Year 10 and 11 for Malaysia. For we have a student in our family who won such award in Biology and now completing AB in Interventional Neurology at Harvard. But he did not jump any years and followed the standard pathway to Medicine.
Good luck to this budding scientist/ doctor and I am keen to follow your reply please. btw, I have two sons studying Med course through UK. Time will tell if they get any placement into FY1 after graduation. I am not a UK citizen and not from Malaysia as well. Cheers.
Sent from my iPhone
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With many doctors leaving the NHS, getting a FY1 post is getting easier nowadays. Brexit may also help.
Dear Mr.Nagesh, probably you are not aware that Oxford does offer 1mth intro programmes for International students at Oxford Royal Academy. There are 99 courses available. Check out their website. I can upload all the certificates. Dont jump into judging people when you dont even know them. We are here seeking advice, obviously because we are confused. My nieces and nephews are medical doctors graduated from Manipal and Melbourne but my son wants to go into clinical then branch out into something that he is interested in. That is why i stupidly wanted to ask for advise from someone i thought might help. Obviously i was wrong. Let me be branded a stupid mother (not a father)…. all i know… im doing it for the best for my son. It is ok to be humiliated. Realised my mistake for coming in here. Apologies and thank you very much.
Firstly I think you and your son are confused. There is no such thing as Medical doctor specialising in Genetics/Biomedicine/R&D. These are scientist who are NOT doctors. They are not medical graduates. Medical graduates are clinicians who treat patients. If you want to go into such field like “genetics/biomedicine/r&D” etc after graduation, you will have to give up clinical work and do lab work, meaning give up seeing patients. But it is not worth it, to do medicine and then giving up medical practise after that.
Secondly, US do not run undergraduate medical course. You need to do a Bachelor degree first before even being eligible to enter a medical school. So, there is no such thing as doing foundation programme ( none from Malaysia recognised in US, as far as I know) and going to do medicine in US. Similarly, most UK top universities do not accept Malaysian foundation programme. Only A-Level is accepted. IMU does twinning program with UK universities for medicine.
There is no such thing of a medical degree recognised worldwide nowadays. All who intend to work in US must sit for USMLE exam. Most degrees from top UK medical schools are recognised in Malaysia. European countries have their own recognition system but UK degrees are recognised for time being as they are part of EU still. Once Brexit kicks in, I do not know what will happen.
And finally, doing an attachment in a medical programme is not the same as working as a doctor. Many do not understand that.
Hi,Dr.Pagalavan.
I have just finish my SPM and I have got 11As and 8A+s.
I wanted to study a bio-related course as I find biology being an interesting subject to me.
At the same time , I wish I could study a course that could secure me a stable income and brighter future.
It appeared to me that only medicine and pharmacy are bio-related courses that provide more job opportunities with stable income.
I would like to know more information about pharmacy,its course details,job prospects and job scope in public hospitals community pharmacy and lab,employability and aspects which i might missed out but i couldnt find a more informative platform. If possible, please do help me and I would be utmostly grateful.
Or is there any other courses that i can look into?
Thank you very much and I would truly appreciate your help.
I am not a pharmacist and not the best person to advise but generally, post in government sector is all full and most do not get any permanent post after their first 2 years contract. However we still need pharmacist in the country but the issue is our healthcare system.
Thank you Dr.☺☺
Hi Dr Pagalavan , I have just graduated from mbbs and still waiting for HO call . Meanwhile , I have decided to join ATM enter as a ‘Captain’ ranking and snub MoH due to the dull future prospect and paying .
Is this possible sir ?
Of course it is possible but you still have to complete housemanship. I think you can do it at some of the military hospitals. However, the future may still be the same.
Thank you for the prompt reply Dr .
I just wanna clarify can I do HOship Isit under ATM instead of KKM please ?
I’m more eager to be infantry instead of military doctor .
As i mentioned, there are some military hospitals where you can do housemanship.
Thank you very much Dr .
God bless .
Yes , unfortunately there’s no option for military hospital for my intake . I highly doubt it’s only meant for the army medical schools, however do you think I should inquire the army HQ personally ?
Thank you Dr
Yes, MINDEF have their own medical school known as UPNM. All their graduates are guaranteed housemanship in their hospital. But you can enquire
Hi doctor , currently I’m looking forward to work overseas especially Europe after graduating from MBBS. As the degree overseas are mostly expensive. I’m considering either to Take numed( accredited by GMC) , RCSI and UCD( Penang medical college ) accredited by Irish, or Monash Malaysia. The fees in PMC seems to be high, but the overall their alumni pathway are overseas, so it is good to invest so that later I can work overseas here? Your response and advise would be greatly appreciated.
The chances of getting a job in Ireland is actually lower than UK. But Ireland do recognise housemanship in Malaysia. Thus, some leave to Ireland after housemanship if they can get a job. Of course it is always better to do medicine with a degree which is recognised elsewhere, but this does not guarantee a job overseas. Always keep that at the back of your mind. Most do not get a job or visa.
Hello doctor. I am currently in the process of choosing university and im torn between both taylors university and manipal medical college. i have asked around a lot and i am confused on which uni to choose. furthermore i have plans to do my masters overseas after my degree. could doctor please share your insight in this matter? thank you
Both universities are not recognised elsewhere. I would suggest for you to read this blog from A – Z. With unrecognised degree you won’t be able to do post graduate degrees overseas.