For Future Doctors: General Misconception of being a doctor PART 1
Over the last few months, many budding doctors have contacted me to ask about the future prospects of doing medicine. Of course I gave them a depressing night after informing them of the current and future prospects of doctors in Malaysia. During these discussions I realise that many of these people do not understand a lot of issues surrounding the field of medicine. Thus I was obliged to write this article to wake up these people from their dream of “guaranteed” life if you were to become a doctor!
1) Guaranteed Job and Good salary/can make money
Many parents still believe that being a doctor guarantee their children’s future. Well, it may be so before but not in another 5-10 years time. You can read about these issues in my MMA articles column. 20 years ago we only had 3 medical schools producing about 400 doctors a year but now we have almost 30 medical schools in the country (the highest per capita population in the world). Last year alone, almost 4000 new doctors started housemanship in Ministry of Health (MOH). The number will further increase in coming years when all the medical schools start to produce their graduates. I believe it will reach a figure of 6000/year by 2015.
This is where issues arise. Even now, the MOH is struggling to place these doctors in various hospitals in the country. We have almost 30-40 houseofficers in each department now not knowing what to do every day. Their training is compromised and they are being released after that without proper training with license to kill! I may sound negative but this is the reality. Even district hospitals are being used to train houseofficers now, starting 2010. As you would have read in the papers recently of parents complaining that their child has been transferred to East Malaysia after completing housemanship, it is a known fact that the shortage of doctors at this point of time is in East Malaysia. As our MOH Director General had said, most doctors will be sent to Sabah and Sarawak from this year on wards.
What’s going to happen in the next few years? Again, my prediction is, there will be surplus of doctors by 2015. There will more bodies than post in MOH by 2015. Doctors most likely will need to queue up to be posted in government service. You will be sent to rural and East Malaysia to serve. Any appeal will not be entertained. If you think this would not happen, please look at the nurses! 5 years ago, the government began to approve numerous nursing colleges due to shortage of nurses. Now, we have surplus of nurses without any jobs. I know of nurses who are currently working in petrol stations! BTW, the MOH is currently considering introducing common entry exams for all medical graduates. Only those who pass this exam will be given housemanship post. This will happen soon.
Furthermore there may be a pay cut for doctors when all the post are filled. One of the allowance known as critical allowance of RM 750 will be removed once all the posts are filled. Critical allowance is never a fixed allowance and is usually reviewed every 3 years. As you know, the pharmacist’s critical allowance is going to be removed if not already.
I had one budding doctor who said that the reason she wanted to do medicine is because it is the only field where you have a guaranteed job and a starting salary of RM 6000. Well, I have talked about guaranteed job issue above but she is definitely wrong in stating that the starting salary. The starting salary of HO has gone up over the last 5 years; no doubt about it (please read my MMA article). However, the starting salary of HO currently is about RM 3500 to about RM4000 after including the on-call allowance. Remember, your salary only increases about RM 70/year. You will only reach a salary of RM 6000 after 7 years of service as a medical officer, when you are promoted to U48 according to current promotional prospect in civil service introduced end of last year! BTW, other than the difference of critical allowance, a doctor’s salary is only RM 200 more than a pharmacist in civil service!
2) Medical degree recognition
If I can’t work in Malaysia, I can go to Singapore or Australia to work, right?
Again, another misconception. Many do not know that medicine is a very peculiar field and cannot be compared to any other profession. In order for you to work in another country, your degree needs to be recognised by the Medical Council of the other country. If it is not recognised, you would not be able to work there. For your information, only UKM and UM degrees are recognised in Singapore. If it is not recognised, you need to sit and pass the qualification exams in the respective country with no guarantee of a job.
Almost all medical degrees from Malaysia are NOT recognised elsewhere. Malaysia Boleh mah! Only Monash University Malaysia’s medical degree is recognised by Australian Medical Council and thus you would be able to work in Australia/New Zealand. Some of the private medical colleges do twinning programmes with external universities from Ireland/UK/India etc. These may be recognised depending on which degree and where you graduate from.
3) Housemanship & Compulsory service
I have mentioned a little about housemanship above. As you know the housemanship has been extended to 2 years since 2008. Even though it is good for your own training but it does prolong your future postgraduate training. After Housemanship you have to undergo another 2 years of compulsory service before you decide to resign for private practise or pursue your postgraduate degree. It is during this compulsory service that you will be posted to anywhere in the country.
Furthermore, housemanship is not an easy posting. Even though the numbers of HOs have increased tremendously over the last 2 years, it is still a very exhausting job. Many have had a mental breakdown during housemanship. I just heard of a houseman who is on psychiatric MC for the last 2 months! It seems she thought that being a doctor is just like sitting in a clinic and seeing cold cases (probably she thought she can become a GP immediately!)
4) Hard work and post graduate training
20-30 years ago, being an MBBS holder itself is good enough. You can easily open a clinic and become a GP and well respected by the community. But things are changing. Even GP practise is a speciality by itself in many countries (Master in Family Medicine/FRACGP etc). Malaysia is also moving towards that. Many patients are demanding and would prefer to see a specialist directly nowadays.
Thus it is important that when you join medicine undergraduate degree, please be prepared to continue your education for another 10 years after graduation! In order for you to complete your postgraduate education, it will easily take another 10 years, assuming you pass all your exams in one try! So, don’t assume your education is only 5 years! MBBS do not mean anything now, in fact it is only considered as a diploma!
Getting into postgraduate training is also becoming increasing difficult. The number of places for Master’s programme is very much limited in local universities. The demand is greater than supply and of course don’ forget the quota system as well! Other than MRCP (UK) – internal medicine, MRCPCH (UK) – paediatric and MRCOG – Obstetric, you have to depend on local master’s programme for your speciality. Thus, you have a very limited option. With such a big number of doctors coming into the market now, I can assure you that getting a place for post graduate education is going to be a major problem in 2-3 years time! Be prepared.
TO BE CONTINUED………………………….
Thanks for sharing.
Is that fault of student taking medical degree or it is fault of poor controlling of medical school by government?
Currently, Medical Degree for (MD)UKM and (MBBS)Um was recognize by Singapore Medical Councils which started four years ago. There is numbers of student been going ‘oversea’ for working at Singapore. Which their better offer with 1 year horsemanship.
Since Malaysia have no enough seat for fresh graduate soon, do you think it will be an issue for them to work at Singapore? AS you can seen in , Dean of UKM Medical Faculty was very unhappy on this phenomenon and lot of people feedback that this is consider a betray since we get free education since primary school in Malaysia, but work for other country.
Government did not appreciate the quality of local student, keep taking quantity with large number of fresh graduate from oversea university which they partly was far more poor in knowledge compare to local student.
Why JPA still sending so many student go oversea since our own country production is better and already reach the quota?
you are definately correct. I have written about the medical schools issue in my earlier post “doctors too many” few months ago as well as in my MMA articles. MMA has also broguht up this issue to the attention of MOH but unfortunately, at the moment it is a money making business! if you look into all the private medical schools, you will find that there are many hands that are involved. It is a political decision! Just last week I saw an advert from Masterskills offering Medical degree!!License for medical schools are given by Ministry of Higher Education and not MOH! perculiar to this country.
Singapore is smart. They know that the best medical students in Malaysia are in UM and UKM. Thus they recognised these 2 medical schools to attract all the best brains. It is our fault for not appraciating our talents! again another political issue!
I do agree with you that there is no need for our country to send students overseas for medical course nowadays. We have enough medical schools in Malaysia. MARA sends about 300 over students yearly to even countries like Egypt, Moscow, Indnesia etc etc. JPA also sends. I don’t see why?
Hi, Paga,
It’s a shame that our profession don’t impose ways to ensure quality control to maintain standards. We are simply opening medical schools everywhere and recognizing any medical degree from abroad. Our lawyers and engineers are doing a better job than us in this. Lawyers have their CLP exams and Board of Engineers Malaysia(BEM) don’t recognized engineering degrees which are completed in 3 years(including degrees from British universities). What is admirable is unlike MMC they don’t succumb to political interference or pressure from parents. See http://thestar.com.my/education/story.asp?sec=id%3D%22more_headlines_sec%22&file=/2010/8/1/education/6745432
Unfortunately The Bar council and Board of Engineers are independant bodies unlike Malaysian Medical Council. MMC is a government body under Ministry of Health, headed by the DG himself! This is one of the reason why they are toothless! The medicat act 1971 suppose to be amended since 2009 but I got no idea what happened. Under the amendments, MMC suppose to become an independant body like Bar council etc.
Hi Dr Pagal,
Thanks for sharing this. Though it’s difficult, i hope the government can implement the entrance exam thingy soon. Too many “under quality” doctors have been produced. Even nursing colleges or some city universities are offering medical course. Don’t the government do Q/C to all the medical schools? How is it fair when those schools can just simply produce lousy doctors whereas some other university from foreign country like Manipal and Monash have to be assessed every year? I’ve known about a few medical schools in our country that apply a very funny system: students who passed the exam will proceed to VIVA and of course, will be taken into account for the statistics of the school, whereas others who failed dont have to sit through supplementary exams; all they need to is pay more?!! And yay, they can continue to study! How ridiculous is that?! Can you imagine letting these people handling a patient? How pathetic malaysia is!
yes you are right. I really hope a common entry exam will be introduced soon. It is all political. Unfortunately we have a lot of ” half past six” politicians running this country!
Hi Doc,
Thanks for highlighting these issues.
But let us now open more horizons for these excess doctors.
Just like how ppl are narrow minded in choosing medicine alone leaving aside a lot of other fields, let us not further narrow our minds and just look at Clinical Medicine.
There have to be more liberalization in this field.
Let doctors float to wherever their interests lurk.
Use their medical knowledge in other fields, overlapping fields, Research and Development.
There have to more places in other disciplines overlapping with Medicine, be open to doctors, giving priority to doctors in their application.
Please look at the situation in US now,
due to risks of litigations, Medical doctors are being driven away from active clinical medicine, to fields in research and development, medical journalism. If you were to enter big labs of their renowned universities, you will invariably find almost half of them are MD graduates. And they are doing very well. better than the clinicians, and they are the ones driving the future of medicine, thru innovation in medicine, advancing knowledge.
If Malaysia is looking to a developed status, it too has to emulate and open avenues where doctors can work besides just clinical medicine.
You are definitely correct. Doctors need to find other alternatives in life. Unfortunately, our country do not provide necessary funds and infrastructure and commitment in developing R&D facilities.
http://pagalavan.com
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Hi Dr Pagal,
I just happen to cross your webiste. I am an accountant by profession.
I can relate to the points raised above. After SPM, my parents were keen to get me to do medicine as I was the first in the family to have the “grades” to make it to med school.
Didn’t want to do it because of differing passion. My parents “arguments” were exactly as you mentioned earlier and I tried to explain to them why in the foreseeable future being a doctor does not equate a “set-for-life” career. Glad to see a doctor himself validating what I kind of saw.
Talked with couple of med students over the years. I just find it disappointing that most have the “set-for-life” mentality and couldn’t care about patient’s life.
Interestingly I am seeing the same problem in my profession. Oversupply of accountants cause by the mindset that accountancy is a “stable and lucrative” career. Wasn’t impress with the quality of the accountants coming out from the business schools these days.
I guess history repeats itself =)
Thanks.
B.
Our entire education system is screwed! We have too many universities (both public and private) that keep producing unqualified graduates. We don’t have enough quality students to even eligible to enter universities in the first place! Crude way of saying ” rubbish in rubbish out!”
Hi Doc
I hope you are giving advice based on his own experience in Malaysia. This might not reflect being docs in other parts of the world. I think there’ s more to medicine than salary, job security and glamour that most people think about. Doctors are still the top 10 earners in many parts of the world. I think we sometime complain and whine too much.The neighbours’ grass is always greener isn’t it? Speak with the accountants that have to take multiple exams before they become chartered accountants and then 20 hours of work a day!
Medicine is not easy but it’s better than having a degree and not having a job at all.That will never happen in medicine unless u want a cushy job in a big city with sky high salary.
I think your advice is mainly towards people who thinks of nothing but monetary benefits from being a doctor but certainly not towards people who are still passionate about caring and helping the sick.
I myself went into medicine for job security but medicine has enlightened me in so many ways that I don’t think other professions would have.
I’m an OBGYN. My work is hard no doubt but I love my job, bringing hope to people and beautiful lives into this world.I wake up in the middle of the night lamenting having to go in again but I will never trade my profession for anything else.( not mentioning that I am quite comfortable living in NYC!)
Therefore , I hope for those aspiring doctors, ask yourselves the real reasons why you want to be a doctor ! Medicine is like any other careers. It is how you make out of it and not what it will provide you!
Yes, you are right. I am talking about situation in Malaysia. As you said, I directed the article to people who choose medicine just for money! Basically, many of them do not realise the tough life they have to go throu by being a doctor. I notice this in many of the junior doctors and budding doctors.
As, I have said in my article, if you really have passion for medicine then by all means, go ahead. You will be able to withstand all the challenges. But if you choose medicine for comfort, glamour and money then you will be disappointed!unfortunately in Malaysia, many choose for these factors!
The situation in Malaysia is also different from many other countries!In 5 years time, we will have surplus of doctors. There is a strong possibility that doctors can be jobless as the system do not allow internship to be done in private hospitals unlike in other countries. The unfortunate thing is that none of the degrees produced in Malaysia is recognised elsewhere. Of course I am not even talking about quality of the doctors being produced lately in Malaysia!
Anyway, if I am not mistaken, in Malaysia you don’t need to sit for many exams to be a chartered accountant, 1 exam will do.
http://pagalavan.com
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device via Vodafone-Celcom Mobile.
Just to share my son’s nursery ryhme to answer the political trap that our country is in:
There a Grand Duke of York,
Who had 10 000 men,
And he march them to the top of the hill and he march them down again,
And when they were up they were up,
And when they were down they were down,
And when they were half way up they were neither up nor down.
Excellent article. Everyone should read it! My sister is a pharmacist in the same govt hospital that i’m in. Her basic gaji is not THAT much different from mine! AND she gets all her weekends and public holidays off! So, good thing i didn’t do Medicine for the money! 🙂 It’s nice to be able to give comfort sometimes. But after a triple EOD, well, compassion can be a bit trying…
The houseman quality is definitely getting worse… The thing about housemanship is that it’s not about how much you learnt in school, it’s your attitude and how much you can “tangkap” when your MO teaches you something.
Yes, the difference between a pharmacist basic salary and doctor’s basic salary is just about less than RM200!! The only major difference in total salary is the critical allowance but this is not permanent as I have mentioned in my article!
Dear Dr Pagalavan
I read with great interest your article, and I agree with you on most of the aspects.
some of the readers had valid arguments in stating that there is more to money in this profession. Many joined the profession for a simple reason of passion and the dedication to serve the needful population.
The major problem is some governing bodies neglecting their jobs and also producing a “doctor mill”. We currently have too many medical schools in malaysia as you rightfully said, and their teachings are mostly jeopardized because of a simple reason: Lack of lecturers who are qualified. in this case scenario , these med schools will likely employ overseas doctors with dubious qualifications to educate our younger doctors. ( not going to mention which country here )
your point on further education is also very true, nowadays it is very diffcult to get into masters and most people do not realise it. Then again all those overseas membership exams, although you have MRCP or MRCOG in Malaysia and you work as a specialist,in overseas all these degrees are just a beginning for you to gain a trainee post and progress another few years before you become a specialist. not forget to mention, it is not easy to pass all these membership exams. I had a friend who failed nearly 10 times and only he passed.
alot of young doctors nowadays are very content with life. and yes it is a public misconception that a basic pay for a doctor is RM6000 ( I worked for nearly 5 years now and my pay is never near that… you have to take into account, bureaucracy, administration problems that hamper your salary advancement) Most young doctors these days, by hook or by crook, do not realise that in this profession you have to work very hard, sacrifice alot to succeed, then I always like to say : hard work doesnt necessarily translate into success.
Hi , Dr Pagalavan
Thanks for the advices to the future doctors.
I just wanted to ask something ,if I get MBBS from the university in Uk,will it be much better as compared to the ppl who get the degree in malaysia in finding job??
And what is the most demanding master for doctor in Malaysia currently??
What degree are you talking about? Undergraduate or postgraduate?
For undergraduate, it does not make any difference in getting a job in Malaysia.
All master’s programme are quite demanding but lately the quality is also deteriorating.
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Hi,doc Paga
These advices u given r very useful for me to re-consider about doctor career.Since older generations are always giving us an idea that BEING a doctor is the top of all careers………
But im curious about the entry exam for fresh medicine graduates thing.
You mean there will b certainly a formal examination for all medicine graduates to gain a post for housmanship due to excess medicine graduates??What about those who fail it??
Is it true that there will be a formal entry exam for fresh medicine graduates,due to excess graduate???
What about those who fail it?
Anyway,thx doc paga for ur useful article.i thk i got more abt doctor career.
Well, it is something that is being considered by Ministry, not sure when it will be implemented. A lot of countries do this.
When the situation gets out of control, it will be implemented. What happens if you fail? Well, most likely you may be sent for further training/attachment in local universities.
i’m interested in medicine… however, after readin the related informations from internet, i realise tat being a doc is never an enjoying task, as for me as i hope tat my job pays well and it’s not too busy and i hav my own time… i’m not a lotus eater but like to make my life interestin n lov to enjoy it… i heard tat doctors work for many hours every day and the holiday is just few days… tis is not wat i hope to be!! however, i think internist(internal medicine) does fittimg me! it does not need operations, no on-call ,pays quite well… the working condition is quite well! hope to seek advices from u!!!! maybe u can recommend me some other jobs which fit me… Thank you so much! just for u information, i hav just finished my SPM last year … please show me the way.
Medicine is not for you if that is what you want in life. However you are wrong on ” Internal Medicine”. Of course, you don’t do surgery in ” Internal Medicine” but it also involves long working hours and ” on call duties”. If you are in the gov sector, salary is the same no matter what you are . In private sector, Internal Medicine is usually the busiest and most demanding and not necessarily pays well, as the doctors fee are regulated by the government. Probably, you can try engineering, biotechnology (underdeveloped in Malaysia at the moment), pharmacy, dentistry or accounting. Interior designing is another option if money is your priority.
thank you so much!!! so, u r sayin tat dentistry is not tat busy and tough job?
Yes, dentistry almost always an office hour job.
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Hello Dr.Pagalavan
I am katiravan. Doctor i am in big confusion now.Please help me out !!! I have done my foundation biological/health science in Management Science University (MSU). I have done my entrance exam and the interview as well successfully. As it IMS-MSU have selected and offered me a place to pursue my MBBS locally in shah alam campus. I am now in big dilemma as there is big glut on over flowing of housemen and doctors in the future. I am very concern about my future once i finish my MBBS. My class will be starting on 16th May 2011 and has been estimated to be finish in 30th may 2016. So doctor i am really worried now for the career prospect as it look like insecurity of job. I am taking up high loans which need to been settle up. For your information doctor, I have work hard since small with ambitious high to be doctor. I would like to serve our nation by joining in Malaysian Royal Army as a military doctor. I have ambitious to further my studies in Cardiology and be a Cardiac Surgeon in National Heart Institute. I took up medicine as not for high pay or the fame or glamor calling ourself up as doctor.I knew Big post comes with big responsibility. It will be full of struggle and scarification. I am tough and I am confident on myself that I will make through all that as my passionate being doctor will burns me up always. I have chosen this carrier as for the job satisfaction as i will knew every time I close my eyes before asleep that I have done my best helping people as what I could. As you are an experience man, would you advise me as what I should do now? Should I continue pursue my MBBS or stop?? I believe you are the best man that could advise me on this matter. Please help me doctor. THANK YOU
if you graduate by 2016, you may still be able to get a job but postgraduate education will become a big issue. Being a cardiologist and cradiac surgeon is 2 different field. Cardiologist is a medical field whereas Cardiac surgeon is a surgical field. In both cases , you need to get the basic Internal Medicine or Surgical postgraduate degree before going into subspeciality. For surgical field, local Master;s degree is the only option.
In order for you to join Military hospital, you need to complete your hosemanship first. As far as I know, there are no cardiothoracic services in any of the military hospitals. Getting into IJN is also not easy nowadays, not sure 10 years from now(probably will be even more difficult looking at the number of doctors graduating).
Taking high loans to do medicine is one big mistake that most parents make. You will never get the returns even after many years of service.
If you are doing medicine for the reasons that you had mentioned above, then go ahead BUT keep in mind the many frustrations that you are going to face along the way. It is NOT a smooth path to speciality/subspeciality. Furthermore , the degree from MSU is not recognised elsewhere for you to go overseas to do your subspeciality.
It will take 13 years after graduation in order for you to become a Cardiothoracic surgeon, assuming you get your place for Master’s etc in first try!
Dear,Dr Pagavalan,
I’m received a conditional offer for medicine from IMU and it’s a twinning programme. Now,I am confused as to whether I should do a twinning programme or a local one as I am allowed to change my offer to the local programme before 20th May but not after I enrolled myself to IMU. I would really like to go for twinning but the major problem here is financial. The cost for twinning is twice that of local programme. Plus,the condition for twinning is ABB for my alevels result while local is BBB. I am worried I will get kicked out if I did not get at least ABB. So I would like to ask your opinion on this. Besides,will I be able to specialise in another country after completing my MBBS locally? Will I be able to work in other country? I heard I have to pass certain exams in that particular country before I can work at that country. Is it true? Thank you in advance
I would advise for twinning programme in an internationally recognised university. Local IMU degree is not recognised elsewhere and thus you can’t work in another country. You need to sit for the respective countries medical council exam in order to work in another country.
Please read the rest of my articles under ” For Future doctors” series for further info.
I see. Thank you,doc. After discussing with my parents,I think I am going for the local programme though I really want to have the chance to study overseas. My dad said I can go overseas for postgraduate study after completing my MBBS locally but is it true? Thank you once again. After reading more about the ‘future doctors’ series,I gain a better insight in being a doctor.
You can’t go overseas for postgraduate if your degree is not recognised overseas!!
Hi Dr Paga,
thank you very much for sharing those great articles. I am really having a big headache thnking about my future career. Since young, I wanted to be a doctor. Till now,(for your information, I just finished STPM), I didn’t change my thought of being a doctor. I know being a doctor will never be easy. I do realise that doctors don’t earn much, working like a mad cow days and nights and not forgetting all the crazy experiences to be gone through during the housemanship period. But, I love to be a doctor not because of doctors can earn very well(but honestly speaking, I do care about the salary as the cost of living in Malaysia is always rising). I love challenges as well. If I were to choose between a job that requires me to sit in the office from 9 to 5 and a job that requires me to always get ready of different cases in the emergency department, I would rather choose the latter. I love to be busy.I love to work in a hospital!I love to help. But reading all those problems that you have stated in your article, For Future Doctors : General Misconception of being a doctor, I am really thinking twice now on whether I should be a doctor.What do you think Dr Paga. Should I just change my mind to other field, perhaps dentistry?
Whatever said and done, money will still become important. You may not be aware of it now as you are still being sponsored by your parents and you don’t feel the pain yet. All the enthuasism about serving the people etc that you are talking about will dissapear when you start to work, get married and have children, trust me. And please do not get carried away by TV programmes of seeing different cases in emergency department etc. In reality, first of all, you will rarely get posted to emergency department. Secondly, our facilities in emergency department are not like what you see on TV. Most of the time the emergency department only functions as a postman!Finally, medicine is not just about getting the MBBS, it is a life long learning and doing speciality will become mandatory in the future , even to become a GP. Whether you should do medicine or not, it all depends on you. If you are willing to put up with all the frustration ahead like I had mentioned , that go ahead. When I was a houseman in 1997, my salary was RM1648!! I could not even buy a car. The salary has improved to about RM 3500 now, but the cost of living has also increased!
Thank you Dr Paga for the quick reply…:)Actually after I finished my STPM, I have decided it’s either medicine or dentistry. I think I would now opt for dentistry instead. One of my teachers also doesn’t encourage me doing medicine. Although my interest is not fully in dentistry, medicine always being my first choice, hopefully I’ll soon 100% fall in love with this field. Dr Paga, can you tell me more about dentistry??including schools which are good in teaching dentistry?thank you very much!!:)
if you can into UM dentistry will be good.
[…] November 11, 2010 by Pagalavan Letchumanan […]
I did apply for UM…but for your info, I didn’t get 4 flat for my STPM..I think it’s almost impossible for me to get into UM…any other suggestion?
Try penang dental college or melaka manipal. I think IMU also has dentistry programme.
hey doc, great style of writing and thinking up there.
Frankly speaking, your post are highly demotivating, not only for those aiming for money and glamour,but also ppl who r really passionate in doing Medicine.And that include me.
well, to start off, I had received a Mara scholarships bound for UK/Ireland and have to do 2 years of International Baccalaureate in Kolej Mara Banting.
I’d also receive an offer to do pre-meds in UIAM.
Now,I’m juggling with different perspectives in my mind rite now.
My plan is that after I graduated with IB, I will get a chance to take MD in top unis in UK/Ireland.After that,serve in Malaysia for several years before specialising in Neurology. And after that, I planned to create my own business, a drug and medicine manufacturing company that will become the main supplier in Malaysia for these kind of things.But now,I’m starting to have doubts about i.Therefore, I have few questions to ask.
1. Is medical degree from top unis in UK/Ireland really make me stand out from others in terms of quality,skills and reliability?
2. Are there any different alternatives for docs to take?. Once I think about becoming a researcher and delve into the R&D world.
3. Can I work in UK if I get the degree from the unis? or can I continue my postgraduate studies there?
4. Between IB in KMB and UIAM, which one’s better? which one would you recommend me to take?
5. Anything that can give hope for those aspiring soon-to-be doctors out there…..anything.
last but not least,thanks for spending your time responding to my comments.
First of all, getting a place in these universities are not easy. You need certain level of distinction in your IB in order to get a place in these universities. Definately, graduates from these universities are reliablebut then they lack some knowledge about tropical disease when they come home. These can be learned later.
If you are intending to own a drug and manufacturing company, then please don’t waste your time doing medicine. Might as well you do pharmacy/biochemistry/medical-biotechnology. There are doctors who go into R&D but always remember that once you go into R&D, all the medical training that you had done for 5 years + Housemanship will all go to a waste. So, please decide what you want to do before jumping into medicine. As a doctor, at the most, you can become a clinical researcher and not basic science researcher.
Yes, you can work in UK if you graduate from these unis BUT it is very difficult to get a job in UK nowadays due to their new immigration laws that was introduced since 2007. Thus, doing postgraduate in UK is also be becoming more difficult.
Please take IB which is internationally recognised compared to local matriculation/foundation programme.
Well, there are a lot of challenges in medical field especially with current glut of doctors. Soon, doctors will become jobless by 2017/18 in Malaysia. Postgraduate training is going to be very much limited. So, it is all up to you to decide whether you want to take up all this challenges or not. I am talking about the reality on the ground which students are not aware or do not want to hear.
Hi,
I am an IB graduate from KMB and currently studying in Ireland. Just want to share a bit of my experience. First of all, about IB, it’s not easy if you compare with matriculation and a-level programme. And lots of community works and hospital attachments. Many of my peers in KMB were struggling even to get a place in universities overseas and plus Malaysian public universities do not recognise IB, eventhough IB is recognised in foreign universities worldwide. If you are thinking of getting a good university in UK, well, I would say academic results are not the only utmost importance as they particularly choose whoever students they like during the interview (read as ‘outstanding’). I have a friend who I would say a genius and an academic top achiever, but get rejected by Cambridge. They perhaps look at your personality, not particularly achievements and that make it harder though because we never know what they’re looking for. And about pursuing career in UK, well, there’re quite a number of Malaysian doctors in UK and Ireland (mostly in Ireland). I asked some doctors who are working in Ireland, the reasons of them working in Ireland.. and fyi, working in overseas isn’t that luxurious as what usually have been told due to the increasing cost of living nowadays. But the main reason is because the internship is only 1 year and if they wish, during that period or while being an SHO, they could take the membership exams (self-study while working), but this is not the case in Malaysia as there’ll be no time for self-studying for interns in Malaysia. And I also know some Malaysian doctors here who had already registrars, consultants. Well dr paga is true in all says that it’s not that easy to get into UK hospitals as a doctor and plus Malaysian internship programme is much much more challenging than those in UK and Ireland..and also i agree with dr paga that here they don’t teach that in-depth about dengue fever and other important diseases in Malaysia (tropical diseases) as what Malaysian students learn in local uni. so, there are pros and cons between studying locally and abroad. However, i suggest that you take IB and pursuing studies abroad due to the circumstances in the future that dr paga said in his articles.
Most of the foreign institutes have a very structured interview for medical students, mainly looking into your personality and critical analysis rather than just academic achievment.
Not to be killjoy or anything…but if I were you, I’d wait till I start medical school before worrying about post graduation prospects.
Being awarded the MARA scholarship does not guarantee success at medical school. 2 MARA scholars at my uni in Aus couldn’t even get past the first 2 years (got kicked back to Malaysia). And mind you they both did IB; so if you ask around your seniors, you might even be able to find out who they are…
Attending a top medical school isn’t like attending your average secondary school; most if not everyone is smart and hardworking (can’t say the same for medical schools in Malaysia)
Do you even know how scarce specialist training positions are for junior doctors nowadays? You’d have to really stand out among a group of already special individuals to qualify for neurology (or in the case of Malaysia know the right people) 🙂
thanks for the quick responses..it is very helpful in making up ma mind even though not really pushing my motivation. 🙂
ok. I will consider it.
Oh and before you start having second thoughts, you might want to check this out:
http://www.medschoolhell.com/2007/04/24/101-things-you-wish-you-knew-before-starting-medical-school/
Trust me 90% of what is on the list applies for most medical students.
Some funny but true quotes:
You’ll be competing against the best of the best, the cream of the crop. This isn’t college where half of your classmates are idiots. Everybody in medical school is smart.
At the beginning of first year, everyone will talk about how cool it’s going to be to help patients. At the end of third year, everybody will talk about how cool it’s going to be to make a lot of money.
Students who start medical school wanting to do primary care end up in dermatology. Those students who start medical school wanting to do dermatology end up in family medicine.
The money is good in medicine, but it’s not all that great especially considering the amount of time that you’ll have to work.
The best time of your entire medical school career is between the times when you first get your acceptance letter and when you start school.
wrong. My best time was during the clinical years 🙂
colloqually, sh*t just got real. Actually doing things that made a difference, minor procedures, and clarking patients thoroughly was mentally stimulating.
thanks Dr. Paga for the great advice, I’ll have a thought of it..may god bless you:)
ok..sor doc. I have one more doubt.
why do you recommend me to take IB?
if IB = 2 + 5 = 7 years total
and it’s not guaranteed.there’s still a high risk of failure.
and my brother who is a MO, said that foreign-educated HOs need some time to adapt so the local condition.not to say that local graduate are ahead of them in terms of seniority.
if I do foundation at UIAM,it can take 1 year,and there’s a higher chance to take a medical degree.it’s more secure.
and total is 6 years.
how doc? i’m in confusion rite now.but one thing is for sure, I will take medicine whatever people said.it’s just where to take it.
do you want an internationally recognised degree or a “jaguh kampung” degree? IB and doing in an internationally recognised university gives a lot of benefit in terms of recognistion and future prospect but same cannot be said about local degrees. With IB , you can go anywhere and do any course but not with foundation programme. My advise for everyone is to take something that is recognised everywhere for better future prospect.
Dear doctor,
I’m SPM leavers (2010) and now I’m counting the days to register at Kolej Mara Banting,taking IB for 2 years.I’m taking pharmacy.
Everyone is actually suggesting me to pursue medicine and since I was a kid,there’s no job I would want to do but being a doctor.When I’m older, the ambition is fading and I think I can’t live in this kind of depressing work. But I still want to work in healthcare field,so I take up pharmacy even though I get another offer in Information and Communication Technology (ICT) – which I also like.
The problem is,when I’m googling for pharmacy,I don’t think I get sufficient information regarding this field since pharmacist is not that famous and widely known compared to doctor.It’s like gambling into something unknown and worse,I’m starting to have doubts whether I should take it or not.In other words, I’m afraid if my decision to venture in pharmacy is a huge mistake for me. (And seriously,now I’m regretting my decision to push aside ICT).
I’m sorry if I sound like a whiner but your advice will hopefully help me to hold on.Thank you.
I feel that both pharmacy and ICT has a better future than medicine currently. At the moment, the government has not lifted the 4 years compulsory service for pharmacy which means that there is no glut yet. Pharmacist also has many options to venture into and not restricted like medicine.
However, in terms of money, I think ICT is better especially if you are network engineer which is hot in demand. But it still depends how good you are in ICT.
i, Doctor Paga
Thanks for answering our question.Can I ask you a few question?
1.Is it true that nurses is excess over the years?I am planning to study diploma in nursing in local colleges and don’t know which colleges to choose from.
2.Can you recommend some local colleges that offers good diploma in nursing course?
3.From what I have heard,nurses are highly in demand and it almost impossible
for nurses not to have jobs.I have been worried after reading your article on this.Is it possible for me to get a job overseas?Can I continue studying my degree overseas?
thanks a lot doctor .I really need your help in planning my path ahead.I would like to thank you in advance.
dear Shu Yui,
if you are a STPM holder, i suggest you to apply nursing degree program in public universities. this is a 4 years program, once graduated you are U41. personally i recommend UNIMAS, because their program is well-structured.
if you are a SPM holder, then you can apply to any nursing college under the KKM. this is a 3 years diploma course, and you will receive monthly allowance (about RM 600 per month), and there is no tuition fee at all. you are U29 once you graduated. you can further your study to degree level later in public universities if you wish to (another 2 years).
i don’t suggest you to study nursing in private colleges (unless you receive scholarship). it is not worth to pay so much / so expensive tuition fee to learn the same things that you can get from the public universities / KKM nursing colleges.
i think there should be no problem for you to get a job placement in KKM hospitals. indeed your placement is almost guranteed if you’re accepted into the KKM nursing college. but the working environment will be varied from hospital to hospital. you may choose to work in private hospital as well later. or you can join the universities as tutor if you are interested in teaching. there are also nurses that going to work in middle east countries where they get good paid.
hope these help you 🙂
Yes, there are over 100 nursing coleges in this country when the government issued the moratorium on new nursing colleges last year. The number of graduates are just too many to be absorbed into hospitals. The KKM nursing college graduates are guaranteed a place in Ministry of Health and thus leaving all the private college graduates to the private sector. Private hospitals can only take certain numbers and very much limited. My hospital receives application from fresh graduates almost on a daily basis. Some graduates even applying to GP clinics! The quality of some private college nurses are questionable. They even take students with just 3 SPM credits as their students and passes all of them ! The college is only interested in money as most of these students’s fee are paid by PTPTN. Masterskill’s alone has a total of 15 000 student nurses!
The nurses in demand now are specialised nurses with degrees. However, in order for you to become specialised nurse you need to work and then do post basic. This is where problem arises. What happens when you can’t even find a job? However, I do know that some of the top students from MAHSA and Masterskill are being recruited by Singapore! Some do come back as they can’t handle the stress there.
Dear Doctor,
I am freshly MBBS graduated from Jordan University and now is waiting for my housemanship call. My questions here,
1. can I start my housemanship at military hospital since my uncle insists to help me to be a military doctor? if not, when can i start? he is an ex-high class army and willing to get me inside.
2. And my second question, do you have knowledge about what are the advantages and disadvantages for being an army doctor compared to a government doctor? i am planning to continue specialty as soon as possible.
Thank you a lot doctor and i am sorry to burden you because it seems you are the most ideal person to ask since i do not have any relatives in medical field. Your advise will be my part of plan in my future. and again, thanks a lot.
1) If I am not mistaken, housemanship cannot be done in military hospitals. You need to complete your housemanship in MOH hospitals and then apply to ministry of defence for appointment into military hospital.
2) advantages: you will become a captain- immediately, will get a lot of extra benefits like a house, car with driver and extra allowances. You will also be sponsored for local Master’s and specialisation in local university. Con: stuck in a army camp and less freedom, variety of cases are limited.
Dr Paga,
As an aspiring doctor, it’s disheartening to read the above. I am really begining to literally think through my decision, whether to pursue this or not. I was ever so sure before. But now, im thinking – after all those years of studying, and the money spent, just to come out and risk being a jobless fresh grad?! That’s just a total no no, no-can-do! Of course, one does not expect to obtain returns immediately, but in the long run, i am wondering, is it all worth it? Will ‘passion’ continue to bring me forward? Will that be sufficient to drive me when things change, for the worse?
I will be finishing my Alevels this June. And after that, what’s next? Seemingly after reading this, i am really shaken. I personally think that if i were to pursue a medical degree, i would endure. But the future prospects are just, well, just so disheartening!
Regarding “Almost all medical degrees from Malaysia are NOT recognised elsewhere.” this is REALLY a kick in the head! My parents shook their heads upon reading this. They literally said “maybe you should consider doing something else”. PS: They were very supportive of my decision before.
Many have asked me to consider doing something else. I was considering Medicine (as priority), Law or maybe even Liberal Arts (which are very 2 very different sides of the coin). But after reading up on the latest updates (like these) and many more regarding our country’s system, i really begin to question and doubt my decision.
Although i am considering other courses, BUT deep down, there’s still that thirst of wanting to be a doctor and to follow my passion, as I’ve been preparing for this ever since i was 14years old. However, i feel so uncertain now. Really very uncertain.
Dr Paga, my humble request, i would like to ask you for advice. As a parent and from that point of view, HONESTLY, would you encourage your child to pursue her dream of becoming a doctor, given such circumstances in the near future?? Or should she drop/push/throw/give up her dream – her life long dream! – and do something else?
Eagerly waiting for your reply.
Thank you, in advance.
IF you have the passion and willing to put with all the frustration which is coming your way, go ahead. No one can stop you. There is nothing special of being a doctor in near future as you will be just like any other graduate looking for a job. The only issue is the fact that medicine is more complicated than other field as I had written before. Of course, it is not worth the money spent. You will hardly get the return of investment if money is of interest.
Frankly, I will never encourage my children to do medicine. Of course, if they are willingly want to do medicine and stand on their toes even after explaining all the circumstances, I will let them do it but they must prove that they have the best result/top student in their STPM or A levels.
The purpose of my blog is not to discourage anyone from doing medicine but throghout my experience, I have seen many regretting becoming a doctor after graduating. Thus, I was obliged to write about the reality of being a doctor and what will come along your way which no one will tell you.
good lah doc this is service to the youth today…..i am now more convinced that my daughter who has crying for last 3 days has stopped crying and willing to go for nursing in spor….. 3 yrs diploma course …. s$800 per month in her pocket … 2nd yr s$900 and in the 3rd yr s$1000 . after graduating s$2000 bond with spore govt for 5 yrs. during this time she can upgrade to degree .
tx doc
Erm, as quote by your articles
” 2) Medical degree recognition ”
Do all JPA scholarship for medical school have a medical degree recognition that is accepted in all countries?
I’m planing to apply for JPA medicine scholarships to New Zealand or if I am able to; Russia.
I’m sorry for wasting your time. Yet I’ve came to know that maybe our medical system is messed up, so can you please give me advise on how to dealt with it as i had no idea how.
Although the reality is harsh on future doctors, I believe that all dedicated students-future-doctors like me are willingly to go through everything. After all, the feelings of saving and helping lives will be the ultimate satisfaction.
NOPE, not all JPA scholars get to enter internationally recognised university. It depends on your luck. I heard this year, they may reduce the number of students going overseas.
Hi, dr! I am still an undergraduate medical student. I want to ask you some opinion on studying as a medical student? Recently I feel lost and my result not so good. Especially when clinical year,i found out not enough time for me to study and can’t digest so many things in a short period of time. somehow lost motivation. Sometimes I just confuse whether I interest to study medicine. Sometimes even thinking to change course. I hope I really can do well in medical school. Can you share me about your study life or any tips?
Medicine is a life long learning process. You never stop studying. Infact, you get most amount of time to study when you are a medical student. Once you start working, you have a very limited time to study and no one teaches you like a medical student. Sometimes, during initial phase of clinical year, youmay be lost but you will get over it slowly.
Hi Dr Paga,
First and for all, thank you so much for sharing the article with us. Frankly speaking, I am very disheartened to learn that doctors will be jobless in few years time. I am actually 2011 SPM leaver and i intend to pursue my studies in Medicine. Let me clarify first, the reason i took up medicine in the first place is solely due to my interest. However, the salary is also my concern as the living cost in Malaysia is gradually rising. You mentioned in your article that it is a common fallacy for people to think that doctors get high paid when the truth is that they don’t.
Now my major concern is that will it be worth it for me to pursue my studies in Medicine, bearing the risk of being jobless in another 5 years time and getting low paid?
By the way, if I still insist to take Medicine despite all the odds, will it be wise to take A-Level?
Last but not least, I am actually interested in Biology. So I suppose that I don’t have to just take Medicine right? Are there any careers that have better prospects than doctors which involves Biology and also get paid well?
Waiting eargerly your your helpful reply. Thank you.
First medicine does not get paid well………….Maybe you can consider other courses like biomedical science, biochemistry……….It is up to you……..
If you are doing medicine for money and to earn a living then you will be dissapointed. If you really have a passion for medicine then go ahead. With the glut of doctors in 3 years time, the government will have no choice but to introduce some sort of exams to filter those who are eligible to get a job. The income of all doctors will eventually drop but will be able to live a decent life just like any other profession.
A level is OK as it is an internationally recognised pre u course and you can apply to any university in the world. At this point , pls do not talk about pay! think where your passion is! no job is guranteed and pay will change from time to time for all profession. If you are thinking about money then do busines or be a politician!
Hi Dr.Paga
Im a 3rd year medical student from malaysia,pursuing my mbbs course in india currently.I am doing quite well with my studies,with the aspirations of becoming a surgeon in the future.i would like to ask your advice in how i should proceed after completing my internship here in india.I would have to do my housemanship for 2 years,no doubt.but then how do i proceed from there?
thank you,hoping to hear from u soon.
finish housemanship, 3 years MO and then apply for Master’s in surgery. The only way to become a surgeon in Malaysia is via the local Master’s programme. You can also do MRCS to give you better chance to enter Master’s programme.
Dear Dr Paga,I am currently pursuing STPM, could you please state the disadvantages and advantages of pursuing a career as a doctor and as an accountant as far as you know.do being an accountant really worth than being a doctor in these days.how long does it get to become a full fledged doctor ?Hoping to hear from you soon..thank you very much for sharing informations with us.
I think you should spend more time reading my blog. All the answers are here. Please read the page ” for future doctors”. I know of many accountants who are doing much better then doctors. I have seen even accountants as young as early 30s already running their own firm.
They may run their own firms but are not making any money (those I know in Klang Valley). Some of them have no choice because they are not happy with their job and their bosses (dirty office politics), so they quit and open up their own firms which do no require a hugh capital like opening up a clinic. I knew an accountant who does everything himself- one man show (cannot afford to hire staff).
In Klang valley everything is saturated. Even doctors in klang valley(the new ones) are not earning much. Just cukup makan. I know of specialist in klang valley who is just earning below RM 10000/month, even less then what the government pays. Accountants are still needed in Malaysia, it is still in shortage.
This is just an immature suggestion from a 18-year-old student like me.. If by 2015 surplus of doctors will happen, the Government should build more hospitals or clinics in Malaysia to locate these doctors. Therefore ‘jobless doctors’ would not happen. I do understand that this is time-consuming and includes much cost. But I think it would be beneficial since some developing areas in Malaysia need it. So, it would be such like an investment for the future. Two in a go – developing some areas in this country + overcoming the oversupply.
It is easier said then done. It involves huge financial resources which our government will not be able to handle. Furthermore, we would have enough doctors by then and what is important is the distribution of doctors.
We do have enough doctors and number of beds in this country(if you include both public and private sector). The problem is actually maldistribution of doctors and the lack of public -private integration. For example, in Klang Valley, the doctor:population ratio has already reached less then 1:400.
That’s why the government is working on the 1CARE system to integrate the private and public healthcare system in order to reduce the government’s financial burden. Pls read all my postings to understand these better.
So, no matter how you look at it, there will definitely be surplus of doctors as the production is increasing at exponential manner.
Doctor, I am currently a foundation student in UM. I would like to ask. Which one is safer to take: MBBS, PHARMACY OR DENTISTRY?
And what are the advantages and disadvantages of the three courses?
Glad to hear from you soon. Thank you…
This question has been answered many times in this blog. Pls spend more time reading all the comments etc.
It is entirely up to you. Nothing is guaranteed in the future. Do what you are interested in and not what guarantees you a job and life. The only problem with medicine is the fact that after 5 years of education, if you do not get a housemanship post, you can never work as a doctor. Furthermore, getting a MBBS does not mean anything anymore unlike other professions. It is a life long learning that never ends.
Other professions has so many alternatives unlike medicine. These are the issues that you need to understand.
Again, pls read all the info under ‘for future doctors’ page
i’m going to take my SPM this year and honestly speaking… after reading ur article and almost all of ur comment…i’m scare….
i seriously dont really know about being a doctor or what to take or where to go… and i dont even no whether i wanna be a doctor or not…but i am interested in diseases.. i often getting sick, not any serious disease but bad enough to make me mad and tired of it… and since i learn biology last year (although im not a top-rated student) i get more interested to know what kind of diseases that i have… my mom want me to be a doctor but i dont think i can because blood/pain and me doesn’t really get a along. 😛
well i don’t think u would encourage me to be a doctor but i wanna know where does my passion for diseases will lead me to?
p/s i’m sorry for having u the trouble to read my comment which i am greatly thankful and sorry for my bad English.. please understand…TT_TT
I seriously feel you should not do medicine. Try some other course and your reason on choosing a field about diseases is rather odd. You should do a course that you are interested in and going to work for the rest of your life.
Hi doc,
Thanks for your information. After reading your article, i’m really confuse should I be a doctor or not. Doc, do you know about geneticist ? Is that field have a brighter future than being a doctor ? Or the future of a geneticist is not-seen-yet in this country ?
Geneticist is a research job and rather underdeveloped in Malaysia. You can try Singapore or other developed countries for a job. Some of our local established universities also do some genetic studies.
[…] January 2010 but the article that really caught everyone’s eye was the title above. I wrote the 1st Part on 07/09/2010 and it achieved almost 2000 views in a single day. At that time, my blog views were […]
Dear doc…..if i graduate MBBS from UM or UKM….can i work in singapore?is that sure they will take me for work?is singapore also having problem with incresing number of doctors?and 1 more question…right after graduating from UM or UKM….can i straight register with SMC?
May i know why u prefer to work in spore?
It is likely that if you enter med school now, by the time you graduate, the shortage of junior doctors in Singapore will have reduced, as the 3rd Med School NTU/Imperial will have started graduating doctors. The UM and UKM degrees will likely still be recognised, but getting a job is a completely different matter.
Yes, you can register with SMC and apply for a job. Whether you will get a job or not depends on vacancy then
[…] When I was in matriculation college, most of those who score 4flat would choose to take medicine. Not because they are passionate for the job but for some other reasons that would definitely make them regret. Anyway, I have some articles to recommend just for you to confirm that being a doctor is what you have imagined. They are really good ones from Dr. Pagalavan. https://pagalavan.com/2010/09/07/for-future-doctors-general-misconception-of-being-a-doctor-part-1/ https://pagalavan.com/2010/09/08/for-future-doctors-general-misconception-of-being-a-doctor-part-2/ […]
I’m scared already 😦