Lately I have been slow in updating my blog as I have been extremely busy and travelling overseas quite frequently. As our children start to begin their university lives, our life changes as well! Yesterday I saw an interesting article in The Star which quoted Prof Adeeba, the Dean of UM Medical Faculty as saying that medical graduates are not prepared for their job. The same article quoted that 30% of housemen do not complete their Housemanship in 2 years, according to Health Minister. Don’t these sound very familiar?
I have been talking about this for almost 10 years now, in fact longer than that, if you have read my MMA articles as way back as 2004. The above statement was made during the UM’s MEDxUM conference held in UM last weekend. I was actually invited to give a talk on bullying and harassment but unfortunately, the notice came late and I was not in the country last weekend.
For years I have been saying that medicine is not a “glamorous”, easy life and good money job! The public would like to think as such until they see their own child “suffering” after graduating. Then they blame everyone else except themselves. I am not saying that the system has no issues but every system in the world has issues. BUT being a doctor means you have to work and work to gain experience and further our studies. Our education do NOT stop after the 5 years MBBS degree. It goes on and on, till you go 6 feet underground, not to mention the number of exams we need to sit etc. It is a life long learning and our teachers are our patients.
Last week, our Minister said that Housemen can be called at any time to help out. Currently housemen working hours have been reduced to 60hrs per week compared to 70 hours before. Shift duties have been going on for few years now. But each hospital would have their own problems and as such every hospital would have their own rules and regulation. The priority is that, the service must run. Many people were unhappy with what the minister had said BUT service comes first. This rule does not apply for doctors alone. It applies to every single civil servant. Any civil servant can be called to duty at any time. During disasters etc, not only doctors are called but also police, bomba, welfare department etc. It is the duty of the government to make sure that the rakyat is taken care. That’s why you are called civil “servant”. You are a servant to the government and the people. The government(aka the people) pays you to take care of the “rakyat”. As a doctor, which you chose to be, your duty is to serve mankind. Isn’t that what most budding medical student would say during interview? Furthermore, the word “Houseofficer” actually means that the doctor stays IN THE HOUSE and is available at all times! That’s the reason it was mandatory for us to stay within the hospital compound during those days. Unfortunately, with increasing graduates, hospitals could not provide the necessary accomodation to all housemen and allowed them to stay elsewhere/home.
If you have pure passion for a profession, you will even do it for FREE! Unfortunately, along the way you will realise that life is more than that. You need to earn a living. You will need to serve your loan, children etc. When you are a student, all these are taken care by your parents and thus you are “stress free”. Reality hits you much later. As a doctor, you need to sacrifice a lot. Hours of work, spending little time with family and even “neglect” family members. The public do not understand all these till they have their own child in the system. Then they go on writing complain letters to the newspaper for their “adult” child who by right, should be able to take care of themselves!
More than 10 years ago I predicted that the time will come when doctors will have to wait in a “Q” for Housemanship, it will likely be given under contract and majority will eventually would not even get a civil service job. All these had surely and slowly come true. Many had emailed, messaged and even called me to say that all my prediction has come true. I have also met some junior doctors, Housemen who came to see me and had read my blog when they were students. They all admitted that every single word that I said about the system, life as a doctor, predictions were all on the dot! Some of them regretted doing medicine.
Next year will be another year to watch, as the first batch of contract doctors/housemen would be finishing their contract. Their contract started in December 2016 and would be completing their 3 years contract this year-end. Majority who had completed their housemanship had applied for a permanent post early this year but I was made to understand that they are yet to get any reply. Their contract can be extended for a maximum of 4 years to complete the compulsory service. Thus, by end of next year, we will know how many will still continue as a civil servant and how many would be left in the limbo. The 1st batch of Pharmacists contract ended end of last year and many were left without a job. Suddenly my hospital received tons of application for pharmacist when we only had 1 post to offer. The rough figure I was quoted was that only 30-50% of the doctors will be absorbed into civil service permanent post. These percentage would gradually decline later as more and more doctors are produced. Even those who get a government job, you can be sent anywhere in Malaysia. Either you take it or leave it! So, what will the rest do? Those from well to do family may end up opening a clinic. You may see a clinic in every other shop-lot by 2020, Wawasan 2020 achieved!
For those who are complaining, you should thank your lucky stars that you even have a job (under contract). Just bite the bullet and do it. Life is never easy and the world do not wait for you. The world is moving and changing daily. I even had some who are planning to return back to Malaysia from UK. They were told that ” tiada urusan pengambilan pada masa ini“. The problem is the fact that MOH do not even have enough post for those who are finishing housemanship in Malaysia, how are they going to provide a job for those who are returning from overseas? Obviously you will be at the bottom of their list and not their main problem. The MMC circular 2 years ago had already given a guideline for those who are returning from overseas. I had posted it in my blog in 2017.
I still have parents who believe that their child can work anywhere in the world with their local medical degree! I find it rather annoying at times. They just refuse to read or take advise and blame the system. Medicine is the most regulated profession in the world. Some countries still practice the “recognised degree” list and some have moved on to “common entry exam” format. MMC still uses the former. If your degree is not recognised in the country where you intend to practise, you need to sit and pass the entrance exam. These exams are not cheap and majority do not pass on 1st try. After spending huge amount of money, there is no guarantee that you will even get a job. Most who do get a job end up working in a rural/remote areas under a “non-training” post. Even Australia has closed their doors to foreign doctors who passed AMC exams. They do not provide internship anymore as they do not have enough post for their own graduates. However, if you have some years of working experience from your home country/elsewhere, you can try to apply for a supervised GP job. Even that rule is changing starting 11/03/2019 as below:
“Visas for GPs initiative
The Visas for GPs initiative will manage growth in Australia’s medical workforce by regulating the number of doctors entering Australia to work in the primary healthcare sector through the skilled migration program. The Visas for GPs initiative will commence on 11 March 2019.
All employers nominating a position that will be filled by a doctor who needs a visa to work in the Australian and New Zealand Standard Classification of Occupations (ANZSCO), occupations listed below will be required to obtain certification (a Health Workforce Certificate) from a Rural Workforce Agency (RWA). A Health Workforce Certificate is a letter issued by a RWA confirming the genuine need to fill a primary healthcare position at a given location in Australia by a doctor in the following three occupations:
- General Practitioner (ANZSCO 253111)
- Resident Medical Officer (ANZSCO 253112)
- Medical Practitioners not elsewhere classified (ANZSCO 253999).
Employers will be required to attach a Health Workforce Certificate to their nomination application for any of the following employer sponsored visas:
- Temporary Skill Shortage (subclass 482) visa
- Employer Nomination Scheme (subclass 186) visa
- Regional Sponsored Migration Scheme (subclass 187) visa.”
The idea is to reduce the number of overseas trained doctors for GPs by 200 yearly for the next 4 years. It is estimated that if they do not do as such, Australia will have an oversupply of 7000 doctors by 2030. Gone are the days when you can sit for AMC Part 1 and then go to Australia to work as a GP/MO before sitting for Part 2. And for those who think that you can sit for the FRACGP via the Academy of Family Physician of Malaysia and go to Australia to work, please be informed that the rules have changed from January 2019. Those who enrol into the program from 2019 will only receive icFRACGP(International Collaboration) and would NOT be registrable in Australia till you complete further modules. How these further modules will be conducted is not made known at the moment. Must you be employed in Australia under supervision or is it done online? If you need to be employed in Australia under supervision, then the above VISA rule will apply which also makes it more difficult as there would not be any FRACGP holders in remote areas to become your supervisor. Even for people like me who had worked 22 years as doctor and have been a specialist for 15 years, I cannot work in Australia as a specialist as my degree is not recognised! Even if I am assessed as “substantially comparable” by the Royal College of Physician of Australia, I need to find a job which can provide me with 2 peer reviewers to peer review me for 12 months before even being considered for specialist registration. To find such a job is almost impossible and you need to find it within 2 years of the assessment. Not to mention the amount of money you need to pay to do all the assessment!
So, for those who feel that spending Rm 300-500K locally would give them a job anywhere in the world, please understand that the world is changing rapidly. Even Singapore has reduced the number of intakes of foreign medical graduates since the last 2 years as they have their 3rd medical school producing graduates since 2017. Only UM and UKM degrees are recognised in Singapore and I heard many who applied the last 2 years never received an offer unlike 10 years ago when Singapore first recognised these degrees. BREXIT may also change some rules in UK.
I started with ” The Storm is coming…..” in 2011 and upgraded it to “Hurricane is coming…..” in 2012. The Hurricane is now sweeping through the nation and the world…………
Pagalavan's Avatar 
How do we students stay motivated amongst this impending hurricane? Even reading about it makes me worry for my future self 😭
It is not impending, it is already here. No matter what you do, nothing is guaranteed in the future. It is the same for any profession.
Does having published papers during undergraduate help to put distinction to the top of the cream despite having subpar results of a pass?
If you are talking about housemanship in Malaysia, than it does not matter. However anything can happen in the future. Furthermore, I don’t think anyone can publish papers during undergraduate as the main author.
Majority of the students will not understand the storm is coming; still thinking medical is a good career because:
1. There are still severe shortages of specialists in Malaysia and most parents and students do not realized path to become specialists is limited. They only focus on the end results, i.e. specialists make good income but not thinking through the details.
2. Hope. Some may know about the surplus situation but they think they are different from others. The BLIND hope that if they put in enough hard work, they can achieve the end result to become a specialist.
3. Choice by default. For majority of science stream students who have strong grade in biology and chemistry but weak in mathematics, the logical choice for them is to study medicine. And they are by default weak in math will not be interested in engineering or IT related studies. Yet , without exposure to accounting, marketing and business studies means it is unlikely for them to switch. Pure science major such as biology or chemistry has limited career opportunities unless you want to end up as low paying lab technician or teacher.
4. Life science career in Malaysia has limited opportunity because the industry is not developed as compared to medical field.
5. Parents may encourage the children to do what they like. In this case, the parents allow their kid to do medicine without researching about the bleak situation.
On the other hand, other professions beside medicine are also facing severe competition as Malaysia has churned out hugh number of graduates. Just browse through jobstreet’s job, you can see each popular position has high numbers of application. The grass is not greener than the other side.
There will not be any privileges in any entry profession.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/malaysian-fresh-graduates-decline-starting-salaries-11388968
Yes, you are absolutely correct. However, there are some differences between medicine and other professions. Medicine is highly regulated and need 2 years of housemanship to be even registered as a full-fletched doctor. The training pathway is way more complicated and limited(no private sector). The amount of money you are spending between medicine and other profession has a huge difference. Unfortunately if you do a quick survey, many parents and students do medicine just because of 2 reasons: guaranteed job, easy and good money/future. This is not true anymore!
The problem with many people is the fact that they keep looking at the traditional professions which is being produced in huge numbers every year. The need is in technical fields, fields that involve hand skills. IN developed countries, even a plumber, electrician and brick layers can earn the same amount of money as a professional.
If you think local medical degree is expensive and bleak future, the same fate for those returning overseas non-medical graduates.
Total cost to complete a business or law degree from overseas e.g. Australia is higher than medical degree locally after taking into account of living expenses (Engineering is much higher)
How a foreign degree is no guarantee of a good job in Malaysia anymore
https://www.studyinternational.com/news/foreign-degree-jobs-malaysia/
After spending so much money to earn a degree, the starting salary is a paltry RM 2,500 a month, with a debt of RM 600K to RM 800K.
The only different between medical and non medical graduate is the medical graduate depend on Government capacity to provide training to further their career ( at the moment as mentioned you need a big cable, i.e. connection)
Nevertheless, in today modern Malaysia with the number of graduates exceeds the number of positions, only a selected few will get high paying jobs while the majority will just struggling along.
As I always tell students, if you are going to spend money to do any course overseas in a developed country, the only reason should be ‘not to come back’, There is no point coming back as it does not make any difference.
See this re RLMT exemptions, for clarification.
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employment/immigration/resident-labour-market-test
At the moment, as long as you are “appointable”, you will get an IMT or CST job, even though you may end up in some less desirable DGHs. The higher you rank, the higher you will get your preferred jobs/ hospital.
Said Malaysian got his opthalmology in round 1, and will start ST1 in August (it goes all the way to ST7). I know of another Malaysian who got into Cardiothoracic surgery training after FY2, it’s also a “run through” 7 years program. So yes, it’s possible, if you’re good enough, and you’ve done your medical degree in the UK, and has followed through the training.
There’s a large pool of very talented and bright Malaysian doctors in the UK. Imagine if they all decide to go back to Malaysia – we will beat Singapore! 😂
“3. Choice by default. For majority of science stream students who have strong grade in biology and chemistry but weak in mathematics, the logical choice for them is to study medicine. And they are by default weak in math will not be interested in engineering or IT related studies.”
I always don’t understand why our local exam board is dropping the STPM standard by so much. Further to that why the public universities do not want to take in top students who completed STPM. It’s not like those STPM students will take up extra quota? They are competing for places with students of their same race but choose to study Matriculation (which at best is equivalent to Lower 6 studies). If the standard of STPM maintains, and if public universities still take the best STPM students, the above statement will be proven wrong immediately.
For those who don’t know what happened in the old days, only those who score 78-80 ‘points’ in STPM will get a place to study medicine in public universities. That means only those who have at worst 4A 1B will be accepted. In case you ask, pre 2000 STPM required one to take 5 subjects, and almost all medical students score A for the super tough Physics and Maths! Anyone who doubt the standard of these students just don’t know what they are talking about.
Of course, we could say that certain ‘people’ don’t want to feel inferior when they’re pitted against the creame de la creame. So what they do is keep lowering the standard to make an ‘equal playing field’…
It is called “politics” ! when politics enter the field of education, it screws it up!
Maria Chin said the same thing as above
https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2019/04/23/bumi-students-to-lose-the-most-from-quota-system-says-mp/
and now even Teo Kok Seng is saying this.
https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2019/04/24/matriculation-an-easier-path-to-public-universities-than-stpm-says-don/
This reminded me of my exchange with an Autralian graduate about why the level of pre-U is very important, and somehow most people thinks that anything mat salleh does is equivalent to ‘high standard’. Little do they know Mat Salleh is the first to come out with things like degree mill and ‘exporting’ education… Pitty Malaysians are always caught in the middle.
Brexit may benefit Malaysians who want to study medicine and practice in the UK. I heard that most UK medical graduates are nearly guaranteed internships in the UK.Of course, class ranking is also important.However, my statement only applies to those self-sponsored students. For government sponsored students, please do come back to serve your country.
Regarding UM and UKM medical graduates, I heard that some Singapore medical doctors complained that many foreign medical graduates were not really up to the standard.Hence, postgrad training are limited to them.
Just a piece of advice. Choose a job that you are sure that you can do better than most people. Not because your parents want you to. Your parents most likely just want the glory of having children as medical doctors. Showing off is meaningless.You will soon face the reality of life, that is, job is all about competition.Rule of the jungle! Survival of the fittest !
The window of opportunities may be closing fast for those just starting to study medicine in UK as International student.
UK Health Minister has explicitly stated to sufficiently locally train doctors in the near future by increasing local medical graduate by 1500 seats annually.
https://www.themedicportal.com/blog/medical-school-places-increase-by-25/
https://www.hee.nhs.uk/news-blogs-events/news/new-medical-schools-open-train-doctors-future
Those who graduate now or in the next four years shall still enjoy the opportunity but after that it is a big unknown. Judging from the number of extra supply of local graduates, you odd of getting a horsemanship in UK is slim once the supply start kicking in.
Those who currently study in UK, you may only apply for further training as a specialist only after round 1 whereby the local and EU students have taken up their seats. By the way, they is zero chance for international medical student to be trained as Cardiologist, Eye specialists or surgeon. Only GP or Psychiatrist whereby not favorite by local are taken up by International Medical Students . The point is , only those jobs are not loved by local then you may have a chance to apply, that is the fact of life.
If you intend to come back to Malaysia, there is no point to be trained as UK GP as it costs so much more.
The news appears to be in response to Brexit. EU students should be regarded as international students after Brexit.EU students should be charged as international students. There should be no preference given to EU students in terms of specialist training.
If international students cannot get UK internships, there is no point for them to spend so much to study in the UK. Then who are going to fund the extra 1500 seats? The local students will not tolerate high tuition fees. The UK has to pay for divorce fees for Brexit first.
In the end,I believe that the UK will still give internships to international students to attract international students.
Firstly, we need to put the EU students’ number in perspective.
Please refer to table AM.9
https://www.ucas.com/file/130741/download?token=g_2adVK0
Based on the table, as of 2018, there were 1670 EU applicants and the actual number of successful application will be smaller, maybe less than a thousand students. So, the effect of EU students is much smaller after Brexit.
The table also shows that more local UK applicants into medical school, a net increase of 1,400 applicants in 2018.
Overall,
UK 13,490
EU 1,670
International 3,090
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/students-university-medicine-health-brexit-latest-undergraduate-ucas-admissions-a8601121.html
The international students may get to do the horsemanship called Foundation 1 and 2. But in order to get into specialist training, the odd is not good.
Anyway, it is a big risk at the moment as the final decision on brexit is deferred till 31 Oct 2019 and there are growing talk of NO BREXIT.
As far as I understand about the status of internationals, you are treated the same if you graduated from a medical school in the UK. It’s FY1, FY2 where you’re still given a Tier 4 visa, and then you apply for jobs halfway through FY2, for IMT (internal medical training) if one is not going for surgery. (Some specialties like A&E, Radiology, GP, opthalmology do not have to do IMT)
IMT is 3 years, and this is on Tier 2 visa. Assuming you did 5 years of medical undergrad training in the UK, by the time you finish IMT, you would have been in the UK for 10 years, and qualify for an “ILR” (indefinite leave to remain).
After IMT, you apply for ST (Specialty Training) jobs, which is 4 years, and after passing the required exams, you then finally become a consultant (specialist).
Competition is stiff among some specialities, but it doesn’t mean that an international will be “discriminated against”. I know of someone (an international) who will start opthalmology (eye specialist) training this coming August. So it’s inaccurate to say that an international will not have a chance to apply for any specialty. If you’re good enough (and you sail through the interviews, and maybe have contributed to research/ publications etc), you will be considered on par.
Round 1 vs Round 2
It is also important to know that there are two rounds of recruitment for most specialties. Round 1 is only for UK/EEA nationals. Round 2 is for Non-UK/EEA nationals.
Exceptions
Non-UK/EEA nationals can apply in Round 1 for GP training.
Non-UK/EEA nationals can apply in Round 1 for Psychiatry training.
Non-UK/EEA nationals can apply in Round 1 for ST3 if they are currently in training. This means that Core Medical Trainees can apply for ST3 level training posts in Round 1.
https://www.hee.nhs.uk/our-work/medical-recruitment/specialty-recruitment-round-1-acceptance-fill-rate
If you refer to the official website above, the ophthalmologist training is fully take up in Round 1 for year 2018 and 2019.
Quote (from Jaz) :-
Competition is stiff among some specialities, but it doesn’t mean that an international will be “discriminated against”. I know of someone (an international) who will start opthalmology (eye specialist) training this coming August. So it’s inaccurate to say that an international will not have a chance to apply for any specialty.
UK has to take care of their own citizen first as the government has provided funding to train their graduates, hence priority will be given to them in hot sectors.
As mentioned, only training in GP, Psychiatrist and Pediatric that international students stand a chance.
I am not sure how can your friend as a international student managed to get into Eye Specialist training.
With increase in medical seats by 1500 annually starting 2018, the future for international students is going to be more and more difficult (even after taking into account of effect of Brexit, i.e. reduced EU students – I have explained in previous post)
DO you want to gamble away RM 1.5 to 2 million for the dream ?
Reply wrongly posted in thread above.
But you are right in that the costs of that dream may make it unfeasible in the near future. Also, NHS consultants do not nearly make the same kind of money that consultants in Malaysia AT THE MOMENT still make.
should add the word “private consultants” and the money is gradually declining.Not to mention how many specialist are trying to make ” money”!
Not accounting for forex, doctors, including consultants in public service in Malaysia make more than their NHS counterparts. FY1 salary average £25-26k per annum, with 20% tax and slightly more than 9% pension contribution, while Houseman in Malaysia will gross around RM48-52k per annum.
I think it is not as simple as that. It is the value of the dollar that matters. What 10pound can buy compared to RM10?
“JB Chin – Round 1 vs Round 2
It is also important to know that there are two rounds of recruitment for most specialties. Round 1 is only for UK/EEA nationals. Round 2 is for Non-UK/EEA nationals.“
This is not accurate. It’s all merit based, assuming non-Uk/EEA applicants did medical degree in the UK.
Applications are different if one is applying as “international medical graduate”.
As far as working in the UK is concerned, all medical students who graduated from UK medical schools will be guaranteed a two-year Foundation Programme (also known as housemanship in Malaysia) regardless whether you are local or international students. Getting into specialty training in the UK is highly possible but gettting into your specialty of choice can be tricky depending on the competition ratio.
Only trainees who did not graduate from UK medical schools would be considered as round 2 applicants in the UK Specialty training application due to RLMT restriction.
Exactly. I was told you need to be able to rank “wisely” as some end up without any jobs (in the 3 years of IMT) in their preferred specialty, in the hospitals they ranked. Then it’s unlikely you’ll get into the preferred speciality training as you would have had no experience during IMT.
You are probably correct, but are we doing medicine for the sake of doing medicine or money. Let me rephrase the statement, what if you are practicing medicine at the wage of the janitor, would you do it ?
To become a specialist in UK, you need five years MBBS, two years foundation, and 4 to 7 years to become a specialist. There is a study done in UK that normally a person becomes a specialist at the age of 42, after taking into account of failures or other reasons.
So, you are spending 15 to 20 years of your most productive youth for the sake of getting the “specialist” title in UK.
There are several major drawbacks:
1. Since there are not many Malaysian that are talented or rich enough to study in UK, your choice of the other MOST IMPORTANT half is severely limited. You can only get use to the best situation instead getting the best deal. If you were to stay back in Malaysia or getting other degree and coming back to Malaysia, your chances of meeting someone truly amazed are higher. Also, marrying someone with the same background would make the marriage last longer and less conflicts. Your are likely to stay single or marry for “convenient” due to limited choice.. would you be happy for life ?
2. For the 10 to 20 years alone in UK, if you get involved in accidents, who is going to look after you. You will feel so helpless and depress without the family support. Malaysia is too far away from UK. This issue may not sink into your mind unless you really get unlucky one time. Only then you will really know what I am saying.
3. Most of you will get posting at the northern UK where the shortage lies. In those area, the temperature is extremely cold and easily get sick. Lonely and cold is a perfect match for depression.
4. It is very difficult to start a family without support. Here in Malaysia, you can have a maid or your mother to take care of your kid. In UK, you are all alone.
5. It is very competitive. Refer to competition ratio. Winner take all, if you fail half way, you end up GP despite enormous amount of effort.
Following I will give real examples of someone related to me. For simplicity, I just refer them as A Doctor.
1. A Doctor come back from UK to further in training in Singapore because he want to be close to his family.
2. A Doctor marrying a person with blood cancer despite major opposition by the parents because they met in UK. (limited choice)
3. A Doctor( after completing CMT;now is called IMT), has been waiting for two years to get into cardiologist training. Still waiting.
4. A Doctor has a child with severe autistic spectrum as he worked too hard.
5. A Doctor remains single after getting his specialist. He has passed his prime age for marriage.
In summary , we are blind by the only mission of getting the “specialist” but not think about other aspects such as Social Life and Family support.
I am talking about statistically the most probable event, there may be few exceptions.
Your line of thinking is facinating
@ JB Chin,
I was merely providing info on the training availability and pathway, which you commented on previously, as opposed to what you have now written, ie the “cons” (with special emphasis on marriage options) of working in the UK as a Malaysian. Very different discussion points, unrelated to training.
You also wrote – “4. A Doctor has a child with severe autistic spectrum because he worked too hard”.
– Really? If the father (the doctor who “worked too hard” concluded and said this, I would be very interested to know more about this correlation.
I am not here to try to impose personal views on other people. What I am interested in, is to convey the right information to the public regarding working and specialty application in the UK.
Thank you for your two cent thoughts. I definitely agree with some of the major drawbacks that you mentioned. Life is not a bed of roses. No matter where you work, you will face challenges. Most Malaysians in the UK are aware of the drawbacks but yet majority still choose to stay put and work up the ladder in the NHS.
jaz, as I mentioned you are correct in providing the info about training path. My message on social life is an expansion from a long journey of medical training path since we are on the topic of training path.
Up till now the scientists have not found a conclusive evident about the cause of autism. But based on observation, there are more and more cases of this incident, particularly the highly educated and busy couple that having child in later stage. ex Minister Khairy (Oxford graduate; yeah,i know he is not a medical student)’s elder son is autistic. In my previous post, I am putting it as one of the observed case, not necessary every person going to study in UK will experience such cases.
sean, whoever is following his medical path in UK now should continue as so much efforts have already been committed. I wish them all the best. Getting accepted into UK medical degree is not easy, Mcat, excellent A level, interviews plus clinical experience and it is a big achievement.
However, my message is more targeted at those contemplating to commit such a long journey.
What has happen so far may change in the near future as the UK government has increased the medical intake by 1,500 without increasing specialists funding. At this moments, those would start its journey starting this year may need a bit more luck.
JB Chin, yes, there is life outside work, and how one balances that depends on the individual, some do it well, others less so.
A career in medicine seems more “life consuming” than others, a well known fact. This is why Dr Pagalavan has stressed many times to only consider it if one truly feels a “calling”, and that one has the mental and academic capacity for it.
There are at least 2k Malaysian doctors working for the NHS currently, and due to lack of Housemanship training posts in Malaysia, many have recently opted to remain as there are jobs available, and some will go home eventually due to maybe a couple of the reasons you wrote of. Some will get used to life in the UK, and stay on. At the end of the day, it’s a personal choice. Doctors are humans too and are not immune to the challenges of life, or what life gives them, eg a child on the autism spectrum, personal depression etc. That happens everywhere, even in Malaysia where one is within the comfort and safety of one own’s family and community,
On the examples you listed,
(1) is the most common reason.
(2), (4) and (5] are not in my personal opinion, real “cons”. That’s just life.
(3), like you rightly indicated, there are competition ratios so how fast one gets into one’s preferred choice of specialty training depends on how one fares in relation to the other applicants. Can the same person get into cardiology specialty training much faster or “more easily”, in Malaysia or Singapore? I have already mentioned 2 malaysians that I know of that got into Opthalmology and Cardiothoracic Surgery training, straight after FY2.
I may be mistaken, but I think there’s now less appetite among Malaysians to pursue a career in medicine. Due to costs, and lack of scholarships, even less will apply for medical schools in the UK. Those who have decided to do so would i hope have been made aware of developments here and in the UK. The 1500 spots you mentioned will be made available over the next 5 years, not immediately, if I understand correctly. Not all the new medical schools are ready as yet.
Jaz,
Quote :
##
I may be mistaken, but I think there’s now less appetite among Malaysians to pursue a career in medicine. ##
You will be surprise, the demand to study medicine is still blazing hot. I have been to IMU’s recent open day and was told they increase the number of intake for medical study. In addition, I was told the GPA required for admission is also higher this year. There was a funny scene during the open day; the counselor
for psychology study was sitting at the same table with the counselor for medicine. Guess what, the counselor for psychology has zero queue while there was a long queue waiting for medicine counselor.
Many have read materials on this website, but when their mind have already made up to pursue a medical career, they will just ignore the rationale of the message. If you ask those who are currently pursuing medical degree that there are too many doctors, you may not be surprise that they know there are excess supply of local doctors. It is very hard to change the mind of a 18 year old student…all they see is an elite image of a specialist in medical center.
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The 1500 spots you mentioned will be made available over the next 5 years, not immediately, if I understand correctly. Not all the new medical schools are ready as yet. ##
Intake is starting in 2018 if the info is correct. The plan for expansion was decided three years ago.
https://www.hee.nhs.uk/news-blogs-events/news/new-medical-schools-open-train-doctors-future
Well, one can only wish those young aspirants all the very best, and hopefully they will become good doctors as Malaysia still need good ones.
Dear Sir,
I am a fresh graduate in a local private university who is currently awaiting houseman posting in Malaysia. After reading through your blog and the extensive comments below each post, I would like to ask your opinion on specializing overseas vs the UK.
As to my knowledge (after understanding how both the local and UK system works), the local program is filled with much dread and oversaturation. On the other hand, the UK system is filled with much uncertainty on the issue of Brexit, as well as the low pay and the competitiveness needed to get into the wanted program.
Therefore, is it better to toughen it out overseas, rather than languishing in the local system constantly hoping for change?
Is the current situation more favourable towards a Master Programme or a Fellowship?
As someone who is planning ahead how to navigate the system and working hard as well as smart, I would like your valuable opinion on this matter.
Thank you.
Actually the situation in both Malaysia and UK is the same. The waiting period, chances of getting into the training program etc will eventually appear as the same. However, if your degree is not recognised in UK, you need to sit and pass the PLAB exam even before being offered a job in UK, which most of the time will be a non-training post. When you will be able to get into the training post is something you will never be able to predict. I know few who came back after they could not convert the non-training post to training post. I am not sure which “fellowship” you are referring to? the locally trained MRCP etc or being trained in UK?
It is very, I repeat, very difficult to get horsemanship in UK for international medical graduate. (Foundation Year 1 and 2) :-
1. Visa problem (RMLT)
2. Newcastle Malaysia is the only Uni in Malaysia has direct recognition by UK Medical Council. For 2017 graduate, I was told there were 40 students accepted into foundation year in UK. An for last year, there were about 80 students. One student got in the first round while the rest were mainly accepted into the 3rd rounds. It was so dammed lucky for them as they save a lot of money by studying locally. I believe the next few years, for those who are already in the program, the chances are good. But not for those starting this year.
If you are not from Numed, your chances are virtually zero. It is very difficult to find FY1 posts for IMGs, since most FY1 posts are taken by local graduates in the UK. Therefore, it is always advisable to start working in the UK only after completion of an internship back home.
Thank you for your feedback. It was valuable information, and I managed to learn some information from your comment.
However, the main thrust of my question was the comparison of the worth of Masters Local Program vs UK Fellowship in terms of practicality and recognition. (Both have their pros and cons).
In regards to that, what are your thoughts and comments?
Practicality of getting into both these programs will be the same but do not forget about sitting for PLAB, if you are not from NuMed.
As far as recognition is concerned, the term international recognition is slowly fading away. UK Fellowship or CCT (entire training in UK) is recognised as substantially comparable in some countries like Australia, NZ, Canada etc. However, you still need to undergo at least 1 year of peer review. Master’s is obviously not recognised overseas but some countries will assess on case by case basis.
Based on your current position, both are equally difficult, for different reasons. IMU has even capitalised on your predicament by conducting USMLE stage 1 to prepare you to go to US. I think the safest path is to WAIT for local housemanship.. the rest of the path are so unsure but you may try; just aware of your odds.
This link will answer all your questions about international graduate getting into UK:-
https://naseersjourney.com/2017/07/07/entry-into-training-for-international-medical-graduates/
It seems the first batch of Contract Houseman have been notified about their placement according to a letter written to Malaysia on 31 May 2019. What would be your views on this? Are the 500 houseman offered contract or permanent?
Still waiting for further info. I heard not all got permanent post
The letter was written to MalaysiaKini
Yes, read about it
Good evening sir. I would like to ask about if malaysia pr holder is able to do housemanship in malaysia. I saw your previous post about a singaporean not given a job by kmm. Do you know whether she is given placement in government hospital now?? Im actually a malaysia pr holder and plan to study mbbs course this September. i also heard from a private uni that say pr holder will not be able to apply for housemanship..
Since 2015, only Malaysian citizens are given housemanship post. This is due to shortage of post. Previously PR and foreigners married to Malaysian were given housemanship under contract but no more since 2015. There was a circular issued by KKM in early 2016 in regards to this and I have posted it in my blog.
I have a question to Dr. Pagalawan and all. Monash and numed are both well established unis in Malaysia. Which is better, Numed or monash University?and why? Can you pls enlighten me with some advice. Thank you.
both are OK but depends on what is your plan in the future.
With all this, what are options for doctors if they want to do something with a bit more balance or sanity? Are there alternatives other than clinical medicine? Or are we all stuck in this with no way out?
generally, medicine is one way in with no way out! Of course you can choose to do any other job totally not related to medicine. The alternative to clinical medicine is administrative/public health which is already full and almost always a civil service job. Or you may see a few becoming private hospital managers/CEOs which you can count with your fingers. Insurance is another field which I know many who quit housemanship are doing. Research is another option but we are producing enough biomedical graduates to fill up these type of post. At the end, the issue is “did you spend RM 500K to do such jobs?” unless you are under scholarship! I have written about these options few years ago.
[…] find this circular very interesting. As I wrote in my article dated 15/04/2019, the first batch which started their contract housemanship in December 2016, most completed their […]