For Future Doctors: Housemanship, Medical Officer and Postgraduate Training (Part 3)
It has been more than 1 month since I last wrote on this topic, the last being on rural postings. I have been extremely busy for the month of October with increasing load of patients in my hospital as well as some domestic house renovation. My house kitchen renovation has been successfully completed but I am yet to complete the painting works, which I am doing myself!
Let’s look at the postgraduate training in Malaysia. I have written about housemanship, district/rural postings and problems of oversupply of doctors in the near future. The issue of oversupply of doctors by 2015 will lead to another very big issue: postgraduate training. Many of the budding doctors and medical students are not aware that the postgraduate training in Malaysia has many limitations and problems. At this point of time, most postgraduate trainings are dependent on Master’s programme conducted by the local universities. Once upon a time, we were totally dependent on UK-based exams and training but unfortunately we lost it along the way. Currently, only MRCP (UK) – Internal Medicine, MRCPCH (UK) – Paediatric and MRCOG (UK) can be done in Malaysia. FRCS (for surgeons) used to be available to Malaysians but not anymore. None of our hospitals are recognised as a training centre for FRCS, which is now known as MRCS. Thus, for any surgical field in Malaysia, you will need to do Master’s programme!
MRCP (UK) – Internal Medicine
Membership of the Royal College of Physicians (UK) is a well-known exam all over the whole. It has a very strong reputation as an entry exam for speciality training in UK as well as in other parts of the world. It is conducted regularly, usually 3 times a year in various countries. Malaysia is one of the centres for the MRCP exams, all 3 parts.
MRCP Part 1 can be taken about a year after your graduation. It is a theory paper. After passing your Part 1, you need to clear your Part 2 (written paper) and Part 3 (clinical) within 7 years. It is usually coordinated by University of Malaya, where the exams are usually held. Just for your info, the passing rate for MRCP (UK) is always around 45-50% worldwide! You need to have a proposer to sit for these exams, who can verify that you have undergone sufficient training to sit for the exam. If you fail miserably, your proposer will be notified.
Since MRCP (UK) is not a specialist exam in the UK, the Ministry of Health, Malaysia only recognises and gazette’s you as a specialist after undergoing further training of 18 months post MRCP (UK). You will need to submit a log book and recommendation by your HOD before being gazetted. This rule applies for all other overseas degrees which include MRCPCH and MRCOG. You need to undergo this gazettement process in order for you to be recognised as a Physician by the National Specialist Register (NSR).
MRCPCH (UK)
MRCPCH is similar to MRCP (UK) but meant for those who wants to become a Paediatrician. It‘s examination structure is similar to MRCP (UK).
MRCOG (UK)
MRCOG has 2 parts but the second part has both written and clinical component. However, you need to undergo training in O&G department for at least 4 years before being allowed to sit for Part 2 exams. One of the major issues in sitting for MRCOG is the fact that there are not many MRCOG holders in MOH to sign as a proposer for you!
Master’s programme
Now, this is where a big problem is going to appear soon. For all other fields, you are totally dependent on Master’s programme. This includes all surgical fields. Master’s programme is a fixed 4 year programme.
In order for you to be eligible to apply for the Master’s programme, you should have completed at least 3 years of service with good SKT marks of at least 85% and above, recommendation from Head of Department and confirmed in service. You also need to attend an exam or an interview before being selected for certain disciplines.
The major problem that I foresee in the future will be the number of places that are being offered. As of this year, the total number of places available is only 600, all disciplines included. Imagine, with 6000 new doctors coming into the market every year from now onwards, only 10% is going to get into the Master’s programme annually. Furthermore, you must understand that the selection process is never transparent, the typical Malaysian scenario as well as the quota system! Most of it is done by the Universities.
The government is planning to increase the number to 800 next year but the situation is rather critical in the Universities as there are not many Senior Professors to supervise the programme. I must say that the standard of Master’s graduates have dropped significantly over the last 5-10 years. We have Master’s graduates who can’t do surgery but have passed the exams! I just hope that the Master’s programme do not become another “specialists mill” like our undergraduate medical schools!
There are 2 types of Master’s programme, the open and closed system. In the closed system, you will do the entire 4 years within the university, like in UKM Hospital, UH and USM Hospital. The open system may have various programmes, like 2 years in MOH hospitals and another 2 years in the Universities etc. You may even do the entire 4 years in MOH hospitals for some of the fields.
After completing your Master’s programme, you need to undergo another 6 months of gazettement process before being recognised as a specialist. Furthermore, you will be bonded for 5-7 years for receiving scholarship during the programme, which is compulsory!
Subspecialty training
With the advancement in medical field, every discipline now has subspecialty training. As such, everyone will try to do certain subspecialty after gazettment as a specialist by MOH. Generally, the subspecialist training is about 3 years except for certain field like Cardiothoracic and Urology which may take 4 years. Again, whether you get a place or not depends on availability of post and demand for that particular field. For example, the waiting time for Gastroenterology training can even go as far as 1-2 years.
Recently, to overcome this major problem, MOH has taken another step backwards. You can only apply for subspecialty training 1 year after you have been gazetted as a specialist. For MRCP holders, this means 2 and half years after passing MRCP (UK)!
Usually, the subspecialty training is divided into 2 parts, the first part (the first 2 years) will be done locally and the 2nd part (remaining 1 year) will be done overseas. The MOH will provide a fully paid scholarship for overseas training of 1 year but you will be bonded for 3 years. If you have received undergraduate scholarship and Master’s scholarship, you will be bonded a total of 20 years in service!!
Singapore
One good advantage that we have is Singapore. Unfortunately, only UKM and UM undergraduate degrees are recognised in Singapore. Our Master’s degrees are NOT recognised elsewhere. Thus, we would not be able to work in Singapore with any other medical degrees or even with our Master’s degree.
However, Singapore does recognise MRCP, MRCPCH, MRCOG and MRCS. Thus, if you have any of these degrees, it supersedes the undergraduate degree and you should be able to get a job in Singapore. Singapore is also a recognised centre for MRCS Part 3 training, which you can’t do in Malaysia. So, if you have MRCS Part 1 & 2, you can go to Singapore to finish your MRCS training and sit for the Part 3.
I must say that Singapore’s postgraduate training is more structured and organised with their BST (Basic Specialist Training) and AST (Advanced Specialist Training) programmes. I have written about this in my MMA article “Back from the Future: From 1st world to 3rd world”.
For all of you out there; budding doctors, medical students, houseofficers and medical officers; the future is very bleak for the medical field in Malaysia. The oversupply of doctors will get to you sooner or later. My advice to those who insist on doing medicine for passion is to choose an undergraduate course that is recognised internationally. Then, pursue a postgraduate degree that is also recognised internationally. If not, you will end up with a lot of frustration in the future. Jobless doctors in the future will be a reality!
If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to respond.
Hi Dr, i’m a medical student in UNIMAS.. I found your blog through medicine.com.my & found your blog is very interesting!
I want to ask whether Master programme in overseas such as Master in Surgery in University of Sydney is recognized by Malaysia?
The Master in Surgery from Australian universities are NOT clinical postgraduate degrees. THese programmes are for those who intend to do research and academic work and thus it is NOT recognised as a post graduate clinical degree. It is a Research degree!
Thx for the reply.. So does this mean that if i want to become a surgeon in Malaysia, the only way out is local Master programme? No other way? It’s kind of pathetic!
Hi Dr, would like to ask what do i need to do after housemanship is finished if
I would like to be a gynecologist ???
either Master’s or MRCOG, both need atleast 4 years of training. MRCOG is an open system where as Master’s you can apply only after 2 years of service post horsemanship
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your very informative posts.
I was wondering if you could shed some light on Malaysian doctors returning from abroad.
in 2010, the MoH were muttering about exemptions for Malaysian doctors based abroad from government service on their return with some conditions. As far as I understood and please correct me if I am wrong, 1) 10 years of experience with basic medical degree 2) exemption regardless of tenure with specialist registration.
Does this seem correct and also, does this still apply (in conjunction with the returning experts programme)? The MoH were supposed to trash out the details later on that year but nothing has been confirmed since and I can’t seem to find details of this anywhere safe for some old new reports / reports from 2010.
I am Malaysian and currently a specialist registrar (in a surgical discipline) based in the UK. I qualified in the mid 2000’s from a London based medical school before embarking on my surgical training. I will be completing my higher surgical training shortly and will have undertaken all the pre-requisite fellowship post-graduate exit examinations by then. I intend to undertake further sub-specialty (post CCT fellowship) training for 12 months either in the UK or in Australia. I have also “ticked the necessary boxes” pertaining to research / medical education and management.
Having gotten along really well with colleagues there, I have been offered a consultant job in the UK upon completion of my training. This has always been my preferred option but due to personal circumstances, I have had to consider a return to Malaysia as a very possible scenario.
I understand that the issue of foreign based Malaysian doctors being exempt from compulsory service is always a delicate issue amongst local graduates but would nonetheless be very grateful if you have any updates with regards to whether I would be eligible for exemption from compulsory service.
Many thanks in advance for your kind assistance!
As a specialist working overseas who is also keen on returning home at some point, I have tried to keep myself up-to-date with this. The best place to go to facilitate your return is Talent Corp: http://www.talentcorp.com.my/
My understanding is that you do not need to work with the govt if you are 10 yrs out of med school BUT who else is going to hire you, apart from universities? Unless you have some strings, you are unlikely to get a job in a private hospital because no one in Malaysia knows you. The lack of local experience will also count against you. Smaller private hospitals in smaller towns (less lucrative and you have to do mainly general surgical work) may be an option if there are openings.
Remember, in private, other surgeons see you as a competitor, not as a colleague (such is the Malaysian way).
I would suggest working for the govt first and then reviewing your options if you are keen on going private in the future.
Lastly, do not give up your current job until you have something securely lined up back home, with a confirmed start date. You could be jobless for a significant period of time otherwise.
Dear NAV
Thanks for the comment.
Nothing on talentcorp about compulsory service
My groundworkis mostlydone for for entering private practice. Just long to see if i can start straightway without government service. Everything else not a problem.not
As far as I know, you can only get exemption if you have more then 10 years experience overseas, after graduation. Certain speciality which is in severe shortage such as oncologist etc may be considered on case by case basis.
Most private hospitals ( the bigger corporate giants) do not take specialist directly from overseas unless you have a speciality that they can’t find in Malaysia. Private hospitals also DO NOT pay you a salary in malaysia, you are considered self employed and you are just renting a room in the hospital to run your own service.
I would suggest for you to complete your training in UK then come back and join either UM, UKM or USM. Get some feel of the local medical scenario before embarking into private sector.
Thank you both once again for the sound advice.
Dear O.H.W,
i would like to know more about pathways after obtaining a UK medical degree, although i read alot bout the explanations regarding MRCP, MRCOG an etc.
i still couldn’t quite get it, could you kindly shed some light on this?
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
i want to ask your opinion about doing medical degree in aucms and pmc?? which one is better?? and have u heard about aucms program collaboration with ireland university? and if you heard about it, is it good? Just curious..
AUCMS is the only university in the world offering 5 medical programmes!! so, I am sure you know what I mean!! right !! The typical Malaysia bole phenomenon!!
I would prefer PMC
I would strongly discourage you to take AUCMS courses. Looks like it’s set up to only earn money—when i saw such a huge variety of medical degrees they are offering. It reminds me of some L**K**W*** University which give courses with fees equivalent of expensive foreign universities but don’t deliver the standard of teachings up to the par. By the way, Dr Paga you can touch on that uni some time too. Just don’t mention its name too directly, coz its owner is well connected to someone in UMNO whose initials start with M.
Yes, it is strongly linked to politicians.
Actually I had written about them before : here and here
Hi,dr pagalavan, How will u think of the prospective of research field in Malaysia? I mean as a medical officer and directly join into CRC or IMR?
Research in medicine is rather underdeveloped in malaysia. There are 2 types of research in medicine: clinical research and basic medical research. CRC is involved in coordinating clinical research, drug trial by pharma companies. These are drugs which has already been developed but undergoing trials looking at response and safety issues. Malaysia is not at all involved in basic medical research in developing new drugs or compounds. IMR is mainly involved in research for clinical medicine like microbiology etc. CRC by itself DO NOT do any research.
i’m a final med in Ireland,this is an eye opener for me whom hasnt had any working experience in Malaysia. do you think i should stay here and further my studies in Ireland, rather than going home straight after graduation?
If you are a self sponsored students then don’t bother coming back.
However, if you are sponsored student by the government, please come back to serve, as you are paid by our tax payers!
Well said! Please come back and serve the country if you are a JPA scholar, its our tax money that is being spent on you.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Why have you said, “If you are a self sponsored student, then don’t bother coming back”? I have not read all that you’ve written about training, especially during the housemanship, in Malaysia, so if you’ve explained before, please do excuse my ignorance.
If you are self sponsored especially in countries like UK, Australia and N.Zealand, it is better to complete your trainign there to get international recognition. Please read the rest of my blog postings over the last 1 year.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Just wondering if there is any option to opt out from the M.Med scholarships (i.e. self-funded postgraduate training)?
Also, what do you think of the Advanced Masters in Neurology by USM? Is it considered as a subspecialty fellowship?
CW
M.Med scholarship has been made compulsory. It is one of the prerequisite to enter Master’s. Unfortunately, I don’t think you can op out of it. I have had friends who did not sign the JPA scholarship, but this was like 10 years ago. I heard , now you need to submit it during your Master’s acceptance forms submission itself.
My personel opinion is that all these “subspecialised Master’s programme” should NOt be allowed. BTW are you talking about neurosurgery or neurology?
I know USM runs ” Master’s in Neurosurgery” where after 4 years you can call yourself a Neurosurgeon! This will never be recognised elsewhere where you need to do General Surgical postgraduate first before subspecialising in neurosurgery.
I meant the Neurology program.
My answer is the same. I do not agree with this type of subspecialised Master’s programme. You will not be recognised elsewhere. In fact , even MOH is not keen for programmes like this because the reality in Malaysia is different. Whatevet subspecialist you are, you need to manage general medical patients in the ward. So, when you don’t have Internal Medicine degree, how are you going to treat these patients?
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Im interested in skin or plastic, so in malaysia how to become plastic surgeon or dermatology? as i know for dermatology i have to master in medical then proceed with sub … and for plastic i have proceed with surgical first. any international university i can study for plastic or dermato which recognize by MOH? ok tq
Dear Farid,
I presume you’re a student. If that is so, pls wait till you do your housemanship before deciding what field that you gonna choose. I have had many friends who wanted to do this and that but ended up doing something else. Some even quit medicine!
As for plastic, it is the same. You need to do general surgery speciality before subspecializing in plastic. What is important is whether your basic general surgery degree is recognised or not. Your sub is usually a practical training. You can visit the National Specialist Register website for further info: http://www.nsr.com.my
sir, it’s https://www.nsr.org.my 😀
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I’m just 4 months into my housemanship and I have been wanting to do Paediatrics since medical student (local graduate). I’m planning on taking MRCPCH actually; but I know a friend who take USMLE so as to train in the States and the NSR do recognizes the Diplomate from American Board of Paediatrics.
Any ideas about the pros and cons of these 2 options? It’s quite difficult to know more about the latter (Diplomate from ABP), since most ppl take MRCPCH and not many ppl take this option.
Thank you.
It depends on where you want to work. Many people who go to US , never come back. That’s why you don’t see many doctors with degree’s from US.
If you are planning to work in Malaysia or singapore, then MRCPCH will do. Training in US is different and very subspecialised. Furthermore, the litigation rate is so high that you will end up practising defensive medicine like a robot!
Hi doctor,
i was wondering why do many people who go to US never come back since the litigation rates are so high?
i am now try to decide to go to a private or public uni in malaysia… for now i’m planning to do postgraduate training in paediatrics.. i’m wondering isit easier to do MRCPCH in UM when im in public uni?
and regarding USMLE…can a student with MBBS take that exam? where can i find a list of prerequisite for the exam for malaysian students?
Firstly , there are not many Malaysian doctors who go to US to work. It is not easy to get a job in US even after passing all the USMLE exmas. AND I have seen many coming back as well.
MRCPCH is an open system, anyone can sit for it. Part 1 of USMLE can be sat while you are a medical student. Please go to their website.
Dear Dr,
do you think it is good for Malaysian student to further his studies in US?
if I were to complete all three parts of the USMLE,and take the residency pogramme in uS, is it recognised in Malaysia?is it can be taken prior to my housemanship training in malaysia?
tq doc!..i find your site really useful!
If you complete all your training in US till specialisation (fellowship), then it is recognised in Malaysia. Residency in US is just a prelude to enter specialist(fellowship) training. Completing residency does not make you a specialist but a generalist.
To enter medical school in US, you need to have a basic degree. Passing USMLE also does not guarantee you a post/job in US. You will have to compete with so many people but having a US degree will give an advantage compared to IMGs.
Dear Azzam,
Completion of residency does not give you a recognition in Malaysia, but being a board certified physician does. Most US residents give their respective board exams towards the end of their residency training (at least 3 years of residency training is required), and being board certified does give you an advantage in future employment, however, it is solely voluntarily. Having said that, it is not necessary for every US doctor to give the board exam to be eligible to practice medicine, but if you are contemplating of coming back to Malaysia, you have to pass the board exams to have your training recognized in Malaysia.
Both Step 1 and Step 2 (CK and CS) can be done when you are still a medical student, after completion of at least 2 years in med school. Step 3 can be taken before the start of residency if you are aiming for a H1B visa, but it can only be taken after you obtain your ECFMG certification, for which you have to be done with med school, and have passed your step 1, step 2 CK and CS.
Hi,
Apollo Hospitals Educational & Research Foundation has launched FAMILY MEDICINE & EMERGENCY MEDICINE Diploma course in partnership with Royal College of General Practitioners (RCGP), United Kingdom for MBBS Doctors.
Two courses are currently on offer, each carefully tailored to the needs of family doctors in India. The first – the Diploma in Family Medicine – gives family doctors in India a chance to upgrade their knowledge and skills and attitudes through on line study followed by full time clinical attachments.
Taught by Apollo staff, the course is quality assured by advisors from RCGP, who also act as external examiners during the final assessments. Successful candidates are then encouraged to study for the international exam for Membership of the Royal College of General Practitioners (MRCGP[INT]).
The Diploma in Emergency Medicine is aimed particularly at doctors based in the community but who have a special interest, or extended role, in the provision of emergency medicine services. This course is also taught by Apollo staff but quality assured by RCGP.
Both courses offer GPs an opportunity to gain useful theoretical and practical experience and we look forward to ongoing collaboration with Apollo on these excellent programs.
Content (DEM)
• Primary health care: features; organization; global perspective.
• Dimensions of continuity of care, and the family doctor as gatekeeper.
• Problem oriented patient records.
• Co ordination of care and making effective referrals.
• Illness and disease: case studies.
• Dealing with uncertainty.
• Principles of health promotion activity.
• The doctor’s role in prevention of smoking; sexually transmitted disease; any other relevant health problem(s).
• Use of medical literature; computer skills, principles of quality assurance and practice audit.
• Diagnosis in Emergency.
• Maintenance of vital functions.
• Cardiopulmonary resuscitation.
• Prevention of complications in emergency situations.
• Equipment and drugs for emergencies.
• Actions to be taken in common emergencies of the following areas:
o Cardiovascular
o Respiratory
o Pediatric
o Psychiatric
o Metabolic and endocrine
o Obstetrics and gynaecology
o Trauma
o ENT and ophthalmology
For further details, please contact:
Mr. Pankaj Bhargava
Email ID: Pankaj_b@medvarsity.com
Contact No.: +91 8233 003007
hi Dr Pagalavan,
i am m.o currently.i agreed with you,that’s will be a real big problem for doctors who want to further study especially for those want to be surgeons.
And according to your article,None of our hospitals are regconized as training centre for MRCS/FRCS.
But i noticed ,some of my juniors hv passed their MRCS part 3 while working in malaysian hospitals and sadly the degree is not recognized by our country,Malaysia!Personally i think they should just go singapore to get subspeciatly training and dun waste their time for waiting to get into master programme for Years!!!
Yes, I was made to understand that now, you can sit for MRCS Part 3 in Malaysia but MRCS is not recognised in Malaysia as a surgical specialist training. In UK as well, it is not an exam to become a surgeon but just a entry exam.
Hi, just want to clarify on this bit
Specialty training in the UK has been revamped. And currently there are different strata one has to go through.
Fresh out of medical school one occupies a post as a JHO (junior houseofficer) and eventually moves on to become a SHO, a post one languishes in till you pass your fellowship exams, and recognized as SpR.
Of late this has been revamped. After medical school one starts as a FY1 (foundation Yr 1 doctor), and completes FY2.
Then starts Basic specialty training (BST), which is ST1 and ST2. One passes the MRCS, and other similar exams to complete the BST. Once completed, you will be awarded a certificate of completion of basic specialty training (CCBST). At this stage you are a surgeon in training.
Then things become tricky. One has to compete for a national training number (NTN) which are limited by different deanery and regions in UK to follow up with Higher specialty training (HST) – ST3 – ST6. One attempts the FRCS at ST4 – ST6 on varying subspecialties, completing all being conferred the CCST (certificate of completion of specialty training) and eligible for a consultant post.
In Malaysia currently, general surgical training is offered by UM, UKM, and USM. Training is structured, and candidates are mature on completion. The level on completing the MSurg is much higher than the MRCS (which has decoupled exams and training).
At present, the Malaysian Urology Council is affiliated with the Royal College of Surgeons Glasgow, and the Urology exit candidates are awarded the FRCS (urol) Glasgow. The other subspecialties are yet to be affiliated with the RCS.
Hi, Dr., I’m a 4th year medical student from UPM . May I know is it possible for me to do my housemanship in Australia if I take USMLE?
Nope
i heard from news on singapore tv,it seems that singapore hv started a specialist training programme which based on US training(now got 40 plus candicates).The medical graduates in singapore will straight away enter the specialist training programme without housemanship training for 1 year or 2 years (like in malaysia).i think it will definitely attract more and more malaysian doctors who hold singapore recognized degree especially those local graduates(UM,UKM).
Yes, singapore is now changing their training to residency training based on US system. There are pros and cons to it.
Not really true….It depends on the discipline. Quite a few specialties including Pathology (my own) require a year of rotations through clinical disciplines. It is just that it is now called Transitional Year rather than Housemanship.
Dear Dr,
I am a medical student at a private college in malaysia.
1- Let say one doesnt get a place to enter master programme, is the any other option to be a surgeon?
2- if a person passed all 3 MRCS papers, what he/she has to do to practise surgery?
3- Can anyone sit for MRCP paper 1, 2 and 3 or there is certain and regulations??
your answers:
1) NO, there are no other options unless you do your training overseases with recognised degree. You can visit the National Specislist Register website for further info on recognised postgraduate degree, http://www.nsr.com.my
2) MRCS is not recognised as a speciality degree in Malaysia. No point doing it, unless you want to work/do further training in Singapore
3) Anyone can sit for MRCP, no restriction unless you fail miserably.
dear dr,
im a district health clinic mo, working less than a yr. juz wanna to clarify bout de skt stuff.. do i have to achieve >85% marks in my skt for 3 consecutive years b4 applying de master programme? if one of them <85%, then how? eg: last year de mark is <85%, so does it mean that i have to re-accumulate it start from tis year 2011 till 2013 b4 i can apply?
Well, the rule says that you need 85% for 3 years. With increasing number of applications for Master’s, this will play an important role. You can still try to apply and keep your fingers crossed!
Hi ,
Can a GP sit for MRCP exams in malaysia ?
You can sit for Part 1 and probably Part 2 theory but you need to do formal training for Part 3, as you need another FRCP holder to sign you in for the exams. Thus, you need to join government hspital again
Dr Pagalavan, does that mean you can only get the formal training in government hospitals? can it be done in the private sector? how many years of formal training is required?
Of course, medical training from housemanship till you become a specialist is done only in government hospitals. Private hospitals do not hire HOs or MOs. Please read this blog in detail
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I’m final med. student frm gov. university. I planned to go overseas and is considering migrating to the UK since most of my family members have migrated.
1. Do I still have to do Housemanship & compulsory service in Malaysia?
Since gov. med degree is not recognized internationally (I’m not frm UKM/UM), does that mean there’s no way for me to do Housemanship overseas? any other equivalent services or entry exams available?
2. What should I do to be recognized and be able to practice overseas? It’s pathetic to acknowledge that I can’t go anywhere with M’sia Med Degree.
Thank you.
Unfortunately, none of the medical degrees from Malaysia are recognised in UK, including UM and UKM degrees. You need to sit for their General Medical Council exam known as PLAB (you can google it and check the exam format etc). I don’t think you can sit the exam over here in Malaysia. Furthermore, due to immigration laws implemented from 2007, UK citizens and EU citizens will be given priority in getting a job in UK. Thus, it is very difficult to get a job in UK by anyone not from UK or EU. That’s the reason why many Malaysians who were working in UK left back to Malaysia/Singapore and Australia, mainly Singapore!
The other option will be to sit for USMLE (USA) and AMC (Australian) exams. But remember, all these takes time and money. So, it is better you start your housemanship first and then try to sit for one of these exams along the way! The job oppurtunities will likely be better in US or Australia. However, I also heard that certain states in Australia has no post for internship.
If you intended to migrate, you should have done some other course which has better prospect in other countries. My friend who was a biochemist, easily got a job in Australia and migrated there, now already a PR. Only medicine has all these medical council recognition issues, and that’s the reason why I wrote these articles to make people realise that it is not as easy as you think!.
My advise: please do your housemanship here. Try to sit for one of the exams, get a job first then resign and leave. So, it is a long process, sorry to say!
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I’m grateful for your reply.
Yes, it is my mistake in the first place overlooked the issues related to medical council recognition. Despite my parents suggestions to do some other courses, I insisted on getting a medical degree as it is my so-called “ambition” since younger. The 2nd mistake was to get into a gov. uni which is not internationally recognized (unknowingly), too naive to believe that gov. uni are (should) offering equivalent standard of teaching/cert, since it is greatly sought after.
The urges from family members and the wish to reunite with them, I have seriously considered to give up medicine since a few years back for a easier way to go out, but time has passed and I am still here! It’s tough to make the decision to quit from a medical school once entered, and it becomes more significant when there’s only a few months left to graduation. Sigh. I don’t think you’d say it’s wise to quit at this point too.
Besides sitting for the exams mentioned above, what else should I do? I hope to specialize in surgery if possible (it might change, but not for now). May be I should put it this way. What is your advise, the best and fastest way to leave (perhaps in 5 years time) without having to sacrifice my career and family? My fiancé is a French. Should we consider other country i.e US, France, or even New Zealand if it’s too difficult to settle in UK in a short time.
Thank you, you have help a lot.
It is very difficult to say which is the fastest and best way because it all depends whether you can pass the entry exams in 1 try or not. 5 years is a very short for anyone in medical field. As I said, start your housemanship here then try sitting for either USMLE or AMC exams. If you pass Part 1 of AMC exam, you can apply for a job in Australia or N.Zealand but you need to clear the Part 2 within 2 years. I am not sure about France, but you need to know French in order to work in France. Again, you need to sit for their medical council exam as well.
As for surgical field, in Malaysia, the only option is Master’s programme. If not, try sitting for MRCS and after you clear your MRCS, try going to Singapore for further training. Once you have obtained your FRCS, you can try applying for a job in UK, if you are lucky. All these will definately take more than 5 years, likely 7-10 years.
Hello Sir, i came across your blog recently and i have to admit it is extremely informative,interesting and intrusive. Please keep on writing for the betterment of the future of medical field.Its quite sad to see the scenario of medical field in Malaysia lately. Politicised, commercialised and at times demoralised in the eyes of public. we used to be and still are a very noble professionals. after all we live to make others live a better and happy life (thats my motto for being a dr). but nowadays we are taking some plunges due to “drs too many” and bolehland policy in medical education. but i hope this issues will come to and end and people especially parents and youngsters will have a shift in paradigm in choosing whats best for their career and not just flock the so called “distinguished fields”.
Neway after some time quietly following your wiseful blog, i would like to ask some questions and i would greatly appreciate if you could reply them.
1) im currently a HO in Alor Star hospital, i would like to sit for the Membership exams as i would not want to be left out in the race ( hope you understand sir what i mean).In your opinion is it wiseful to sit for the part 1 whilst in housemanship or should i wait till i complete my housemanship? Im currently in my 3rd posting and planning to sit for the part 1 in oct 2011.
2) is there really a difference in between MRCP UK and MRCPI? i heard that in some the part 1 is tough and in some the clinical part is tough. And also the speciality exam in final part of MRCP UK introduced lately is it recognised in Malaysia as a subpeciality?
3) your advice as a experienced consultant and fellow of RCP to young guns like me planning to sit for MRCP exams?
i thank you very much for your kind effort. keep going sir
Thanks for the comment. Since you are going to complete the first year of housemanship, you can go ahead and sit for the Part 1 exam by end of this year. There is not much difference between MRCPI and MRCP UK. The speciality exam that was recently introduced after passing MRCP(UK) is not recognised as a subspecility in Malaysia since we have our own structured 3 years training for it.
MRCP(UK) exam is really a challenging exam to sit eespecially when you are preparing for it while still working full time! The thing I like about this exams is that they still use real patients with clinical signs for their clinical OSCE exams. Many of the undergraduate exams which use to have real patients has been changed to simulated patients. Thus, I feel those students who underwent this new format of exams during their undergraduate degree will have difficulty passing MRCP.
Hi…
I’m a JPA scholar (dubious as to whether it’s lucky)for Russia medicine…and i heard a lot of incompetency concerning Russia medical graduates…So,what is your point of view on this…
And i intended to be a physican, probably opting MRCP (UK), an is a Russia-graduated docotor entitled to opt for this…?? and who will be the proposer if I wish to opt for that..thx for answering..
Yes, it is well known fact that Russsian graduates are generally incompetent. However there are good ones as well. JPA only started sending students to Russia over the last few years and thus we have not seen good students graduating from Russia yet. Probably, the JPA students who are usually the top students from Malaysia will do better. Furthermore, by the time you graduate, all oversease students will have to sit for Medical Licensing Exams which will probably filter out the incompetent graduates.
Anyone can sit for MRCP(UK) irrespective from where you graduate. The proposer will be an MRCP holder of atleast 8 years.
Dear Dr.,
I have obtained offers for medicine and dentistry in Australia.Im equally interested in both.
1)Whats your opinion based on your extensive knowledge and experience?Which is a wiser and better option?
2)Financially(income),job opportunities and opportunity to specialise which do u think is better?
3)which one do u think will give me a better opportunity to migrateto australia?
The dentistry programme is 5yrs and they only take 25 international students while the medicine programme is 6 yrs and they take 70 foreign students.
I would really hope and appreciate to hear your wise advice.
Are you a JPA scholar? If so, you need to come back home as you will be bonded.
Otherwise, either one will do. I am not sure about prospect of dentistry in Australia but have not heard anything bad so far. As for medicine I am sure you would have read about internship crisis in Australia.
Sir,
I was wondering. What if i completed joint exam MMED (surgery)/IMRCS part 3 in singapore, could i come back malaysia and work in gov/private hospital as a specialist? Thx for answering
If you complete your FRCS, you will be recognised as surgeon BUT if you have MMED(surgery) from singapore, you probably still have to do gazettement in government hospitals first before you can call yourself as a surgeon.
At the moment MRCS is not recognised in Malaysia as a surgical speciality degree. Thus, MMED is also not listed in the NSR website as a recognised degree.
Dear Sir, I graduated not too long ago from Airlangga State University (Indonesia). We also have Malaysian Students graduating from the same University, and they have to do 2 year of housemanship in Malaysia. Is there any way I can do the same housemanship as the Malaysian nationals do?
Thank you Sir.
Dear Sir, I graduated not too long ago from Airlangga State University (Indonesia). We also have Malaysian Students graduating from the same University, and they have to do 2 year of housemanship in Malaysia. Is there any way I can do the same housemanship as the Malaysian nationals do?
Thank you Sir.
In Malaysia, in order for you to do housemanship, you need to joint the civil service. Unfortunately civil service is only for Malaysians. If you have PR then you may join on a contract basis. I had a Monash student who was a Singaporean but unable to do housemanship in Malaysia.
Thank you for the answer, sir. What about continuing education? Eg. Taking medical residency? Should I sit for an exam or do some work?
As I have written in my said article, if you do not complete your housemanship there is nothing much you can do! There is no such thing as medical residency in Malaysia. You can’t do Master or postgraduate exams either. All will need full registration after completion of HO. You can do some other odd jobs not related to medicine at your own interest or do another undergraduate degree.
Dear doctor,
I am moving to Malaysia with my husband who is coming for a PhD in Management. I have searched the website of International Islamic University Malaysia. There they have MMed degree. I intend to join academics. Is it a good option to consider?
Are you planning to do MMed or joining as a lecturer?
I am planning to do M Med. Currently I am doing Mphil in Anatomy. My Bachelors degree is MBBS with housejob/ housemanship in surgery.
That depends on whether the degree is recognised in your country. If I am not mistaken, UIA do take some foreign students for the Master’s programme. But you must also understand that Master’s programme from Malaysia is not recognised in many countries.
Assalammu’alaikum Warda
I am a lecturer in the Kulliyyah (Faculty) of Medicine, IIUM and has been working here since it first started in 1995.
1) If your degree is not recognised in Malaysia you cannot register with the Malaysian Medical Council (MMC) and, therefore, cannot go into any clinical postgraduate programs in Malaysia.
2) For now, IIUM only has clinical postgraduate training programs in Orthopaedics and O&G. Other fields will be starting later with Internal Medicine and Surgery starting first.
3) Apart from the above, IIUM also has Master in Medical Sciences in Anatomy, Physiology etc. These are not clinical programs but, instead, are research postgraduate degrees and you will probably need to do your PhD after that. This is a useful line to take only if you do not want to work with patients anymore and want to become a lecturer in a particular field of the basic medical sciences.
4) A word of caution here, if you have only done housemanship in your country in surgery, you will be required to do housemanship in the other fields first before you can register with MMC. Of course, this is provided your medical degree is recognised by MMC as mentioned in 1) above.
5) Another thing to consider, if your husband is doing his PhD in Management, it will be in the IIUM main campus in Gombak. But the Kulliyyah of Medicine is in Kuantan, over 200kms away!
Dear Sir
i’m a first year houseman and planning to take MRCS part A on sept 2011/april 2012. i graduate from ukm. i need ur advice regarding this exam since its really expensive
first, when can i actually sit for MRCS? do i need a year ++ in HOship?
second, do MRCS will benefit me in becoming a neurosurgeon?
third, what is the next step after completing MRCS in becoming a neurosurgeon? (either local or overseas)
fourth, if i plan to do local master program, how many years do i need before doing sub in neurosurg?
fifth, MS(neurosurgery) USM, is it recognized by UK? can i practice it in other country as a neurosurgeon?
sixth, how to apply for surgical prog in singapore?
seventh, which way should i choose sir in becoming a surgeon? local or other way? if only i can choose ;(
sorry for the lengthy q’s, really appreciate ur help sir
tq so much
If I am not mistaken, you are now allowed to sit for MRCS Part A after your primary degree qualifications(MBBS/MD) but I will strongly advise you to take the exams towards the end of your housemanship. This is due to 2 reasons: to get clinical experience and to have more time to study.
You must understand that even in UK, MRCS is NOT a surgical degree. It is just an entrance exam to surgical training. Thus, MRCS is not recognised in Malaysia as a surgical postgraduate degree. You will not get a neurosurgical training post in Malaysia with MRCS.
So, if you want to become a neurosurgeon after MRCS, you either need to go to UK or Singapore to work as a registra in neurosurgical training programme.
If you take local Master’s in Surgery programme which is a 4 year programme, you need to get into the neurosurgical training programme after your gazettment(6 months). The programme is another 3-4 years in MOH hospitals. This also depends on the availability of post and demand.
MS(Neurosurgery) is not recognised anywhere else. In fact, none of our local Master’s programme is recognised anywhere else.
After your MRCS, you can apply to singapore for further training. You can apply directly to the respective hospitals in singapore. Since you are from UKM, your degree is recognised in Singapore. So, you can even go there now and work as an MO while trying to sit for MRCS.
Which way to choose depends on where you are going to work in the future! If you planning to work in Malaysia, then go through the local programme. If not, go for international recognised training. I will always suggest the 2nd for good future prospect.
Thank you sir for enlightn me with the info 🙂
i’m thinking of international recognised training sir, but since all of us need to serve the gov for at least 2+3 years first (i’m not any under scholarship), maybe later i’ll be going to singapore
but my concern is if i go there to complete my training, do i need to resign from the gov? the issue of brain drain is a hot topic in this country, do u think they will approve my intention sir?
last but not least, i heard that the gov send out local specialist ( i mean from masters prog) to complete their subspecialty in overseas centre, does this mean that they acknowledge our standard or is there any other reason?
i hope my q’s are not bothering u, thanks again sir 🙂
Since you are not under any scholarship, you can leave after completing your compulsory training, which is by the way 2+2 and not 2+3. YES, you need to resign from gov service. OR take “no pay leave” but this depends on your years of service, every one year of service entitles you for 1 month of no pay leave.
Yes, MOH do send some of our specialist to overseas for their final year training BUT this is only as an *attachment and not a paid job(unless your degree is recognised)*! MOH pays for everyhting including your monthly salary. To do attachment in another country, you need not have recognition as it is just a temporary registration.
Pagal
Dear Dr,
So if i’m from a private university in Malaysia, my degree won’t be recognized by Singapore?
If this is so, does it mean that i cannot take MRCS as well?
You can still do MRCS based on criteria set by MRCS. Pls visit their website
Hi
Dear sir i am from Afghanistan and now i am housejob next year i am graduating from medical college and i want to become a cardiologist please guide me how is the procedure here in malaysia about specialisation.Thank you
If your degree is not recognised by MMC , you can’t work in Malaysia. Furthermore, Malaysia do not provide internship/housejob for foreigners unless you are married to a local.
I regret becoming a doctor. There is non-stop to studying and exams. 5 years of med school and a decade to get a speciality. This is a torture. And what is more bothering most of our degrees and master programmes are not recognised elsewhere. If only I have graduated elsewhere.
Greetings Dr
Coming back to the MRCP issue, are you aware that there is a requirement that states that one need to be in the internal medicine for at least 4 years, of which one year will be at least post MRCP before we can proceed with the pre-gazettement of 6 months. Meaning to say if one manage to pass MRCP after 2 years in internal medicine as MO, he will actually need to wait to be gazetted after 2 and half years and not the usual 18 months. Is it true, and are there any alternatives? What is your say on this?
Thanx
Yes, it is true and the rule has been there for many years. However, it usually takes about 4 years for you to complete all 3 parts of MRCP. So, it does not make much difference when it comes to gazettment. Furthermore, I still feel that you need at least 4-5 years of internal medicine training to be competent in general medicine. Passing MRCP does not make you a good physician if you do not get adequate training.
Well, true it is usually takes 3 to 4 years. For some, it takes longer. But we do have few who stands out, and completed it in 2 years. So what would your advice be, to stay on and wait longer before you can be gazetted, or leave elsewhere (for which what is your recommendation) so that you can advance faster.
It is better to wait till you are gazetted as a specialist before leaving elswhwhere. If not , when you come back, you will not be recognised as a General physician! You will only be recognised as a subspecialist , for example : a cardiologist but not internal medicine!
But in this era where everyone is seeking for subspecialist treatment, do u forsee that there will come a time where general physician will have limited role in treatment of patient? I must agree that general physician is still vital to make the diagnosis in the first place. But with more subspecialists will their role be limited in term of treatment especially in major towns?
Is this the trend in other countries such as spore?
The era you are talking about will take many more years to happen in Malaysia. In the private sector, no matter what subspecialist you are, you will still need to manage general medical cases. Thus, it is important to be gazetted as a General Physician. Even in Singapore, you need to complete basic medical training before going into subspecialist training. Even in government hospitals, general physicians are still needed especially in smaller towns and the bigger hospitals may just become referral hospitals in the future. In singapore and many other countries, the subspecialist still need to take care of general medical cases but they are usually discharged to Family Physicians Specialist for further follow-up. This system is so much underdeveloped in our country.
Dear Sir,
Thank you so much for discussing the problems that are currently happening in our country. It has certainly made me think twice about what steps i should take in getting internationally recognised qualifications.
I am a first year houseman and am interested in dermatology. I need your advice on this matter. There are programmes such as MSc in Clinical Dermatology offered in UK. Can i directly enrol for this after i complete my MO or would i still have to do MRCP first before going into dermatology?
My fiance is an orthopedic surgeon from Indonesia. Is there any way for him to practise in Malaysia? Or would he have to take a subspecialty from an internationally recognised training centre to able to do so?
Msc in Clinical Dermatology is not a postgradate degree. Master’s in Science degrees from UK and even Australia are research based degrees and not clinical based degree. If I am not mistaken, NSR do not recognise these degrees as a clinical postgraduate degree. However, if you do have MRCP, then the NSR or MOH may consider you for gazettment as a dermatologist. Some of these Master’s degree from UK is only a 1 year programme whereas the dermatology training in Malaysia is a 3 year programme. So, it is better to do MRCP because in Malaysia you need MRCP or Master’s in Medicine before doing Dermatology.
For your fiancee to practise in Malaysia, his degree need to be recognised in Malaysia, both his undergraduate and postgraduate degree. If it is recognised, then he can apply to MOH for a job on contract basis but he can be sent anywhere in Malaysia to work.
Dear Dr,
I am currently serving my housemanship in malaysia. I have already passed my AMC part 1 before i started my housemanship.
In the current climate, is it advisable to leave straight after housemanship and getting a position as a MO in aus and work towards a specialty or do you think i should complete my compulsary service as a MO in malaysia first. I am still unsure if i would want to return to malaysia to work, so really do not want to burn any bridges. Thank you.
Jo
My advise would be for you to go to Australia after your housemanship over here. Don’t worry about compulsory service as doctors who are returniing after 10 years oversease are now exempted from compulsory service. Furthermore, if at all you return to Malaysia and they insist on compulsory service, it is just another 2 years of work with the government.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am a final year MBBS student with hopes of sitting for the AMC exams. I plan to do the Part 1 after my final exams (like Jo mentioned).
Am I required to go to Australia for clinical training prior to sitting for Part 2 & 3?
And within how many years does one have to complete Part 2 & 3 after doing Part 1?
Thank You for your advice sir.
You can sit for Part 2 in Singapore if I am not mistaken. You can do it immediately after your Part 1. However, it does cost a lot of money!! Usually, you are given 2 years after Part 1 to complete your Part 2. You can visit AMC website for further info.
hi doctor,
im an orthopedic mo
for the past 4 years..joint as ho in 2005
i managed to pass part 1 and 2 mrcs this yr
im planning to sit for part 3..but i understand they don’t have one in malaysia..does penang provide?
im also accepted for um orthopedic masters programme this june.
should i complete my mrcs..or just concentrate on part one local masters exam..or take both…my passion is in orthopedic…dilemma.
I would suggest for you to take both. I heard that you can do your Part 3 in Penang but as I have said, MRCS is not recognised as a specialist degree in Malaysia. Thus you still need Masters. MRCS may be useful if you want to go to Singapore or UK later.
thank you sir fou your advise.
Ruben how do I contact you in order to get more information about Ortho ? I will be grateful if I could ask a few things. Thanks.
Bro I would like to contact you to ask a few things about Ortho. How can I get in touch with you ? Thanks.
Hi,
I just happened to visit your blog by chance. But found it very honest.
I have a question. I am a foreigner who recently has been accepted by USM for MMed Opthal. I was told by them that as a specialist I would be able to practice after the degree is completed. However, I was surprised when I read one of your lines that its not recoznized anywhere but a few places.
So can you please tell me where in the world is this degree valid and does singapore accept it?Do let me know, else I will waste four years for nothing, apart from alot of money.
As far as I know, Master’s from Malaysia is not recognised elsewhere except for some Middle East countries. You should ask the university which country recognises their Master’s programme! Singapore do not recognise Master’s unless you have FRCP etc.
Hi thanks for your reply, surprising thing is they told me, that you can practice anywhere as a speacialist. But thanks again. Really appreciate it.
Probably they are talking about working anywhere in malaysia! I can bet you that you can’t work in Singapore, Australia, UK and US as a specialist! Who told you this fact? some clerk in the office?
hi sir,
i have completed my housemanship with mbbs from india and wish to work and take on postgraduate course in singapore. since my degree is not recognised in singapore what should be my further move to acquire a job there and move on with further studies. please advise.
You need either MRCP or other internationally recognised degrees to get to work in Singapore
Hi Sir,Greetings to you,I am an indian doctor(MBBS) who resides in singapore with holding of dependent pass,I would like to check with you that what is the process to get a job in singapore since my degree is not recognized in singapore.Thank you
You need to sit and pass their entrance exam. Pls enquire from Singapore medical council
dear sir…
thanks for you for this information
I passed part 1 and part 2 MRCS in oversea in sudan
now i want to go to singapore for trainining program but i donot know how ??????please tell me how can i send my certificate ??? and where can i find this program in website?
can i find a job ? and in the program of training , i will pay or get a sallery in this job ???????/
you need to apply directly to the respective hospitals. You can try Singapore General Hospital or National University Hospital website. You can also try SingHealth and NIH website.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
thank you very much for highlighting the scanty career opportunity in our country. i reallly hope MOH will address the issues of nadequacy of proper training centers here.
im interested in pursuing my career in opthalmology, hoping to get into postgraduate training in Tun Hussein Onn Eye Hospital. just wondering if you know any available scholarship for postgraduate training in malaysia..
Thank you..
First of all, in order for you to do opthalmology, you need to get into the Master’s programme. If I am not mistaken only UM,USM, UKM offers Master’s in Opthalmology. It is compulsory for you to take the JPA scholarship the moment you are accepted into Master’s programme. You will be bonded for 5-7 years depending whether it is an open or close system. Tun Hussein Onn hospital do not except any direct postgraduate students as far as I know. You may ask the university whether they can allow you to do some attachment in Tun Hussein Onn hospital.
salam Dr Pagal,
I recently resigned from gov. doing GP. (self sponsored degree from local uni). interested in doing FRACGP. Obviously I cant do FMS unless joining any uni for trainee. I would like to ask your opinion about the DFM (a compulsory PJJ) by AFPM and future risk and benefit b doing so. Thanks
FRACGP was not recognised by the government untill about 2 years ago. However, in order for the government to recognise FRACGP, they wanted it to be a 4 year programme. That how AFPM came up with the 4 year programme before sitting for the FRACGP exams. In between, they give you the Diploma/DFM. As a GP I think it is important for you to pursue this programme as what our DG has been saying. THis is because in the future when the government introduces national health financing programme under 1Care system, GPs with DFM and FRACGP may be given priority.
dr LINA,
Can you tell me what is the process to resign from gov hosp?Do i need to complete compulsory service first (which is 2 + 2)? Any idea can i resign before complete compulsory service?
Yes, you need to complete your compulsory service or any gov bonding. If you don’t complete, MMC will not give you APC to practise.
Dear Consultant doc
i,m also at a situation same with dr lina. but the difference is i’m still at
the government site as medical officer in district clinic. i’m real interested
in postgraduate study.which one better FRACGP or FMS (local uni) ??
FRACGP is more well recognised compared to FMS. FMS is a more structured programme compared to FRACGP being run by AFPM. The AFPM programme is a self directed learning programme where you need to take your own initiative to do rotation.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
Thanks for your nice sharing. I am a fresh graduate, will start my housemanship training soon. I have a doubt regarding the proposer that u had mentioned for MRCP exam, do we need a proposer for all three parts of exam?
Thanks
previously, a proposer is needed for your Part 3 only but lately I was informed that you also need a proposer for Part 1. You can check with MRCP website
Good day 🙂
What are Postgraduate programme (not in local) that recognised by Malaysia and Singapore?
Thanks.
MRCP and FRCS as well as Australian and US based postgraduate training.
Hi Pagalavan Letchumanan,
Wish would you recommend the place to study.. Russia or IMU / Taylors / Monash Malaysia..? I am still considering it.. I would like to graduate and do Housemanship in Malaysia then specialize in some field.. I heard rumors that graduates from russia cant specialize due to low standards.. thanks for the reply
I would suggest MOnash since it is recognised in Australia and new zealand. Taylors can arrange for you to sit for AMC or USMLE exams but their degree is not recognised elsewhere. Forget about russia. IMU is OK if you do not intend to migrate or work elsewhere.
Hi Pagalavan,
I really enjoy your website and very honest opinions.
To Kev,
I was an IMU medical student and continued medical school in Canada and I will be a cardiologist here in Canada very soon. Decision making could be difficult, pick a school that you think will give you a better opportunity in the future, in Malaysia or Australia or North Americas. I remembered almost 10 years ago I was in similar situation like you, things will work out eventually…. is all HARDWORKING AND DETERMINATION!!!!
I like the American system (same as in Canada), you go straight to the specialty that you like after medical school, except Internal medicine subspecialties where you must spend 3 years in internal medicine and write the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada exam earning FRCPC in IM and then subspecialty exam.
Thanks for the reply.. I am trying to convince my parents to not to send me to russia.. So many negative feedbacks from doctors.. What about taylors twinning or IMU- twinning? it is worth the money?
Twinning is better depending where you are graduating from. Choose a well known foreign university but remember: which university you get for your twinning depends on your performance in exams. It is not a guranteed seat!
Studying in Monash malaysia maybe would be my first choice.. taylors mbbs degree is quite new.. Is there any other option in Malaysia? Studying in singapore is so impossible.. my friend had 4.0 in stpm cant even get a seat in NUS
Generally all private medical schools in Malaysia are not well equiped with adequate number of academics to be internationally recognised!!
I just want to study and get my degree and specialize in other place and work in other place.. just kinda hard to choose.. with the high education fees..
Then, you got no choice then choosing an internationally recognised degree as what I have written in Part 1 of this topic!
Thanks for the advice dr.. ^^
I just want to ask.. if specialize in carido or neuro, you have to go through MRCP exam or how is the procedure..
You have to pass MRCP or Local Master’s in Internal Medicine programme before subspecializing in cardio or neuro. It will take roughly 10 years after MBBS for you to complete all this.
Dr Pagalavan, Mine to explain the whole process… Dont quite understand with so many abbreviation like yours such FRCP, etc Thanks ^^
Have you read all my postings ? If not please go through my postings on “For Future Doctors” series. Please go to my education page. I had explained about the process.
read my latest post
Hi dr pagalaven, just want to ask if i finished the course for medicine.. if i want to master medicine in overseas.. will i have to apply for No objection certificate?
No NOC needed but whatever Master;s programme that you are planning to do MUST be recognised in malaysia as a specialist degree. If not it is a waste !
NOC is a crap ar.. they should just close down all the so-called foundation course.. btw if doing IMU-twinning in overseas do i still need NOC because in IMU website that did not stated anything about NOC
I don’t think so
Dr,
I am a malaysian who just passed my MBBS from Mymensigh medical college, Bangladesh and have return back to malaysia. How do i apply to do my housemanship in Ireland please
First of all, is your degree recognised in Ireland? If not , you need to sit for their exam!
Dear Dr, thanks for your enlightening and frank explanation of postgraduate training. Much has been said about MRCP and MRCS. I’m a medical student currently interested in psychiatry and have a few questions.
1) For psychiatry is the local masters programme the only way to go?
2) What are your thoughts on the job prospects and career in psychiatry in Malaysia?
Yes, Master’s is the only way. The prospect is good but unfortunately, most of the time you will be stuck in government service since the awareness of mental health among Malaysian are still low. Furthermore, most of the psychiatry drugs are too expensive !
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I’m a JPA scholar doing my final year of med in Australia. As I’ll be returning home early next year to start my housemanship, I found your articles insightful and would like to ask a few questions:
1. Recent news suggest the possibility of a new exam for all returning overseas graduates (including those from approved unis). Would you happen to know by any chance when this exam may potentially be enforced and if I may be affected by it?
2. What are the factors that are taken into consideration when the ministry decides where to post you to? I know you recommend us not to get married during our housemanship but if my boyfriend (who’s a Singaporean and will be mainly based in Singapore during my 10 years of bond) and I do get married, does that increase my chance of a posting in, say, JB? We have been discussing marriage and how we may plan out some things in the future and this is one of the issues we’ve been talking about.
3. I’m considering a possible route of psychiatry or public health / med admin in the future. How does this work out in Malaysia? Are all training to be done in KL and no where else? How early after housemanship can I start this advanced training / education and how long does it usually take?
4. If after my 10 years of bond I decide to move to Singapore and work there, which of my med qualifications will be recognized? I know that at the very least my basic undergrad med degree will be recognized but what about my housemanship and advanced training? Would I need to start all over again, back to being an intern? Or are there some exams that I can take that will allow me to resume usual work so long as I pass?
5. Considering my 10-year bond as well as “the Singaporean factor” mentioned earlier, do you have any other tips or suggestions that may be of help to me?
Thank you so much for patiently reading through my questions. I hope to hear from you soon and thank you in advance for your reply.
1) you will not be affected as the medical act will be tabled in parliment this JUly for amendment. For it to be approved and implemented will easily take another year and furthermore, it may only affect students who are about to do medicine and not those who are already doing.
2) Marriage is no guarantee that you will be posted to JB. Since there are huge number of housemen reporting every year now, the MOH may send you wherever there is a vacant post for housemanship. And as I have said before, getting married during housemanship is not a good idea especially if you want to get pregnant.
3) all the speciality that you have listed above need local Master’s programme. it can be done as an off campus programme in MOH hospitals. Like Master’s in psychiatry can be done 3 years in MOH hospital and the final year in university hospital. As for public health, it is usually 2+2. JB hospital is recognised as a training hospital for psychiatry by UM/UKM. You need to finish 2 years of HO and 1 year of MO to be eligible to apply for Master’s programme(which is a 4 year programme). No guarantee you will get it .
4) Only your undergraduate degree will be recognised. Master’s from Malaysia is not recognised. Housemanship is recognised. Also remember that when you do local Master’s programme, you will be further bonded for 5-7 years! It is up to the Singapore specialist registry to decide whether they can recognise you as a specialist. At the most they may take you in as a registra.
5) Since you are bonded, you have no choice but to work in Malaysia. If not I would suggest you to go to Singapore for further training.
Dear Sir,
Can we sit for MRCP Part 1 during the final year of MD? MD is my second degree after completing my first degree of basic sciences 2 years ago.
NO. You need 18 months of postgraduation training and must be in service in order to sit for Part .
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I’m now currently in my final year as a medical student in a private medical school in Malaysia.
I’m aware that only UKM & UM medical degrees are recognized in Singapore.
Is there any means/possibilities (entrance exam..etc) where i can do my housemanship in Singapore?
Thank you.
Regards,
R.L.
You can contact Singapore Medical Council. If I am not mistaken, you need to sit and pass the NUS final year exam.
hi doctor,
i’m a fifth year medical student of alexandria university,egypt..
1.i’m quite mixed up with the post housemanship part…
do u mean we have two choices after completing the housemanship which is either to further in local master programme or MRCP(UK)..
2.after completing all 3 parts of MRCP,does that mean they r specialist already?
3.can we take the MRCP exam in UK?at least the part 3..
1) yes
2) no, only after another 18 months of gazettment process for MRCP and 6 months after Master’s.
3) yes but it is also done once a year in Malaysia and Singapore.
Thx Dr for the article… I read all the responses above and got greatly demoralized by the prospect in M’sia of doing postgraduate in medical field. Some of my friends and seniors told me that I should not figure it out what to do in postgraduate as time when I finished my housemanship and MOship, a route will be there. In roder not to be disappointed, they just asked me to accept whatever offer. Well, maybe there’re right.
Regarding the MS(Neurosurgery)(USM) that sir you have just mentioned above, u mean one who get into the programme will not have to undergo Gen.Surgery/ MRCS b4 getting the training in Neurosurgery? Wow that is fantastic! I googled it jz nw and found out it was there, however, I also noticed 1 of the entry requirement is to have MRCS/ FRCS equivalent, and hence my doubt…? Sir could u enlighten on this issue if I’m wronged?
Thx! Btw, I’m ur frequent reader! This blog is just fantastic.
As far as I know, I have seen doctors who do not have MRCS who got a place for Master’s in neurosurgery. However, you need certain number of years of experience in general surgery before being accepted into this programme. Furthermore, the number of seats are very limited, if I am not mistaken usually around 5-7 students per year! Please also remember that it is not recognised elsewhere.
Yes Sir, I’m a typical Malaysian who love the culture in M’sia. I would like to serve the nation since I was born here and received medical degree here paid by the tax payers. A total of RM 151,800 has been invested in my university to make me a doctor, I find no reason not to serve my country. I understand the limited seats available, however, that is still a thrilling news that USM offers such a postgraduate degree. I just couldn’t understand why they just can’t make Cardiothoracic and Plastic Surgery as a 4 years training, by skipping Gen Surgery. This will shorten the time for our country to produce young neurosurgeons and cardiothoracic surgeons. I have many of my teaching lecturers telling me in face knowledge in Gen Surgery has not much to do with their subspecialty currently, which are neurosurgery and cardiothoracic.
I admire your patriotism to the country but you will know what I am talking about once you get into the system. If I am not mistaken there is Master’s in Plastic surgery by USM as well. There are pros and cons in doing subspeciality directly. Whatever it is you still need basic general surgery knowledge before doing sub.
I presume you are just a student and things will change once you start working. I had many colleagues who wanted to become this and that but ended up as GPs. So don’t think about postgraduate untill you start working!!
Yes, I found out plastic and reconstructive surgery also in USM websites. Yes, I agree that some might end up as GP. However, in my era when I come out and need to compete with others 5999 graduates, becoming a GP is not an option. We can see >2 clinics per street nw. Our lecturer told us nowadays we might need to do M.Med Fam b4 becoming a GP. Anyway, thx Dr for enlightening me regarding this issue. Btw, it’s really hard not to think abt postgraduate by lookin at the prospect M’sia is having nw.
Hi Cy,
I echo some thoughts which are shared by many others. Neurosurgery, cardiothoracic and Plastic surgery are surgical subspecialties. There is a reason why one has to go through general surgery prior.
General surgery builds strong surgical fundamentals, without which one has a wide gap to bridge in jumping straight to subspecialty.
The current trend to expedite the process is a gimmick which is counter productive in the long run. You can become a neurosurgeon via the USM program, but the trainer and the training is dubious at best.
And I really hope you have decided on neurosurgery after having worked in the rotation, for if you have not, you will be very disappointed by the outcome in some cases.
Lastly dont be demoralized, and all the best!
Hi there Cy,
What you mentioned about GP is a common misconception. The clinics we have now are all congregated in the housing areas in the big cities only. Please find below some information from a colleagued of mine about the state of Primary Health Care in Malaysia. She wrote it in January this year.
“In addressing issue d) Human resource development and training – it is pivotal to note that Malaysia needs 33,000 trained primary care physicians (PCPs) to care for the 28 million population and to become effective gatekeepers under 1Care system.
Currently, there are less then 400 qualified PCPs registered with the NSR. We have approximately 8000 doctors practising in primary care who need to be trained (‘grandfather clause’ will be applied to those above certain age, say 50).
Alternatively, the 2-year Diploma in Family Medicine (DFM) programme run by the AFPM will serve as the required entry qualification into primary care. Go to http://www.afpm.org.my/omni/omni/portal/135/r/ for more details about this.
Associate Professor Dr Anis Safura Ramli
Head of Primary Care Medicine Discipline
Faculty of Medicine
UiTM”
The main problem in Malaysia is a unstructured primary health care system. We have both the government and private sector running primary care in Malaysia. Thus, if we are talking about 33 000 trained primary care physicians, does this include all the doctors in KLinik Kesihatan and Polikliniks run by the government ? If we include these doctors in government clinics, what will the figure be at the moment. I am sure it will be more than 8000 and even higher in the near future due to the glut.
Hi Dr. Pagalavan
Thank you for a very informative blog. In short, generally how long would it take from the time a medical student graduates to the time he or she becomes a government-recognized specialist? Let’s use a surgical specialty like neurosurgery and a medical specialty like neurology.
roughly 10-12 years.
That’s terrible. I graduated from med school in malaysia 4 years ago and am now a board-certified neurologist in subspecialty fellowship training in the USA. Probably no chance of the MMC recognizing me as a subspecialist, I guess.
Please visit the National Specialist Registry website to see whether it is recognised.
Dear Dr,
Thank you so much for your sharings!
I’m currently a medical student in a gov uni.
I’m interested in Anaesthesiology but it is not a posting available during undergraduate study. How about during housemanship?
What is the process and requirement of becoming an anaesthesiologist?
Thank you =)
If I am not mistaken, housemen are given 2 weeks rotation in Anaes since they started 2 years housemanship. You need to do Master’s in Anaes in order to become an anaesthetist. The other option is the australian exam FRNZA but only training in certain hospitals in Malaysia is recognised, pls visit their website.
Thank you, Dr.
For housemanship, can we actually apply for what postings we would like to go?
NO! But you need to complete all the necessary postings.
i see .. thank u very much! =)
Sir, I’m just curious. What’s the difference between MRCP and FRCS?
MRCP is to become a physician. FRCS is for surgeons
Hi…I’m district MO.. I jus want to know how about if I want2 b a lecture at medical school.. Such as teach physiology or pharmacy.. Where I can apply n how.. Tq
As far as I know, to be a medical lecturer, you need to have a postgraduate degree. Definately you cannot be a pharmacy lecturer but for physiology, you need to have Master’s in Physiology. IN order for you to become a preclinical lecturer, you need Bachelor degree in science like biochemistry, microbiology etc. However, I was made to understand that private colleges do employ medical dcotors(MOs) to teach science students and some non clinical based teaching like procedures/ethics etc.
Assalammu’alaikum Sharifah,
If you are interested to become a lecturer in the basic medical sciences you will need to do a Masters (2-3 years commonly) followed by PhD (3-4 years usually) in the field that you choose, such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, parasitology, immunology etc.
Since you already have an MBBS or similar, being a district MO, you should be able to enter into the Master/PhD in medical sciences courses. Please note that these are research +/- coursework programs so you must learn how to do basic science research in the laboratories.
You can apply to become a basic medical science lecturer in any medical school in Malaysia. With many of the public medical schools such as UKM, UIA, UiTM etc they will usually take you in as their trainee once you apply for and get into a suitable Masters/PhD course in any university that offer the course. I have an ex-student (MBBS graduate) who did his Masters in Anatomy in Glasgow and is now continuing with his PhD there also. His wife (also MBBS graduate) is doing a PhD in Physiology at the same place.
To be a medical lecturer I would advise that you take the time off to go and see the relevant Head of Department (HOD) or Dean at the university you want to work with. This is because for some basic medical science fields, like Physiology and Anatomy , there might already be many trainees under the Department/Faculty but others, like histopathology, biochem etc, they are really short in. So they may not want to have another person doing Physiology also. This situation is different for every Faculty that you go to, so you might need to make an appointment to go and meet a few HODs/Deans at other universities.
Also, it is possible for you to be a basic medical science lecturer in another faculty. Take my ex-student and his wife that I mentioned above. They are both trainee lecturers under the Kulliyyah (Faculty) of Pharmacy in UIA.
Assoc. Prof. Dr. Kamarul Ariffin Khalid
Department of Orthopaedics
UIA
hello dr.
i’ve just completed my medical degree and will be joining houseman soon..i would like to be a gastroentologist..but i would like to take a physicians degree first…to your opinion, which specializing degree should i take? MRcP or Masters?? if MRcP, when should i sit for paper 1?? can i sit for it by this year?? dr..what is your advice ???
Please read my article on “step by step approach to speciality in Internal Medicine.
I am impressed with your blog.
I am currently a MOH doctor who is looking to apply for a trainee lecturer post in orthopaedics in any public university of Malaysia. I believe I will stand a better chance of becoming an ortho surgeon eventually since the competition to get into masters is fierce nowadays.
please kindly advise.
Thank you.
Ortho is one of the most competitive Master’s programme. Furthermore, lecturer training programme in some university is only open for bumis.
Dear Lim
1) Practically all of the public universities with a medical faculty will be interested in getting a trainee lecturer for Orthopaedics. this is because of the high attrition rate of ortho surgeons from the public universities. Just go and see the Ortho HODs in an public university of your choice to inquire about the possibility of becoming their trainee lecturer.
2) The Ortho Masters program under the Malaysian Orthopaedics Conjoint Board is only available in UKM, USM, UM and UIA so far. So you will have to apply to do your Ortho Masters in either one of these universities through the central UPU (Unit Pusat Universiti)
3) My department in UIA (Universiti Islam Antarabangsa) have a trainee in his 3rd year of the Orthos Masters program by the name of Goh Kang Liang. We also have a few other non-bumi lecturers and trainees in the other departments. It is up to you which university you want to work with. Just go and ask if they would want to take you in.
Assoc. Prof. Dr. Kamarul Ariffin Khalid
Department of Orthopaedics,
UIA
Prof Dr. Kamarul:
Thank you for your reply and being so helpful.
I had thought of applying for UIA ortho since last year. Unfortunately I have no contact. I am wondering if I could speak to you in details regarding this.
Regards,
Lim
Hi Lim,
You can contact me through email at k.ariffin@iium.edu.my.
Kind regards,
Assoc. Prof. Dr. Kamarul Ariffin Khalid
Department of Orthopaedics,
UIA
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I’m in the local masters programme for orthpaedics.Upon completion is there any options or qualifying exams that i can sit for in order to practice in Australia or Uk?
Thank you
Invictus
Master’s is not recognised. You may get a job as a registra if you are lucky. The best is to sit the AMC exam but it is not easy after doing only ortho for so long. The other option is to contact their specialist colleges for further info. They may have some criteria to recognise you as a specialist especially if it is in the area of need.
Hi Invictus.
Nope, you can’t work as an ortho surgeon in Australia even with getting the Masters.
If you did not get your MBBS from Australia you will need to take the AMC (Australian Medical Council) exams first. After passing that than only can you get registration with the medical board to work as a doctor. You will still need to apply for and do the Orthoapedics training program here before you can be recognised as an ortho surgeon by the Australian Orthoapedic Association (AOA); and, despite having your Ortho Masters you will still have to go through 4 years the ortho training program and take the exit exam.
For UK, as have been mentioned by Dr. Pagavalan a few times before, unless you are a citizen of UK or the EU countries you will not be able to get a working visa from the British Home Office. Thus you cannot even go into the ortho training program there, let alone work as an ortho surgeon.
Assoc. Prof. Dr. Kamarul Ariffin Khalid
Department of Orthopaedics
IIUM/UIAM
Can’t decide whether to choose AIMST or Taylor (local) for MBBS degree. What about UCSI? Please advise, tq.
You also need to see which overseas medical school that the private medical school is affiliated with.
IMU – with most of the medical schools in Ireland and many others in UK and Australia
Royal College of Medicine Perak – with Sheffield University, if I am not mistaken
Penang Medical College – with the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI), Dublin
Monash Malaysia – with Monash University, Melbourne, Australia
The above are about the only private medical schools in Malaysia that I would recommend anybody to go to.
Assoc. Prof. Dr. Kamarul Ariffin Khalid
Department of Orthopaedics
IIUM/UIAM
Royal college of Perak is affliated with UM and not sheffield. Infact they are actually offering UM degree, under UniKL now
dear professor, even if IMU is affiliated with those medical schools overseas, doesnt mean the MBBS obtained locally and not through partner medical schools are recognised there, is it?
Yes
Sir, do you have any opinion (or have u heard anyting) about royal college of medicine perak (under UniKL). thank u sir.
Nothing great! They offer UM medical degree but it is not recognised in Singapore unlike the main campus UM degree.
Greetings sir..
I am a final year medical student from Melaka-Manipal Medical College under JPA scholarship. I would like to ask you some questions and to clarify some points.
1) What is your opinion regarding this college, its degree, and the doctors it produces?
2) Is it true that when we become an M.O we would be sent to any department as the hospital like and we cannot simply ask the department that we want?
3) If that is true, does having e.g. MRCS part 1 can help us to become an M.O in e.g. surgery department?
Actually I’m very confused right now. I tried to plan what to do after completing MBBS….after reading your article, this is what I came up with..
MBBS–>H.O–>MRCS part 1 (during 2nd year H.O)–>M.O Surgery–>try to complete MRCS part 2&3 (during M.O)
[All of which will be done in Malaysia]
That’s all. Then I blanked. I cannot do housemanship in Singapore since they don’t recognize my degree. I also have to serve in government hospital for 10 years due to the agreement upon agreeing to receive JPA scholarship. I really want to do Surgery, and I also don’t want to be a chronic M.O. Can you please help me sir…Thank you.
Regards.
1) Personally, I don’t see that many students who are reliable from your college. There were good ones and bad ones as well. I think it all depends on the entry qualifications and attitude.
2) yes! In fact, with the current glut, all doctors will be sent to district/rural postings after houisemanship. After 1 year in rural postings, you can request to come back to the hospital. And remember, you may not end up in the same state after housemanship. Most people will be transferred to another state after housemanship for district /rural postings. e.g: I did my HO in Ipoh but was transferred to Pontian distrist hospital after that. That’s how I landed in Johor! I heard majority of doctors who are finishing housemanship are going to be sent to Sabah and Sarawak from this year onwards.
3) NO and yes. You will still need to do your rural posting first. After that, you may request to your state pengarah to transfer you to a general hospital for your surgical training and having MRCS Part 1 may help. BUT it all depends on availability of post in the respective department and of course, cables!!
4) MRCS is NOT recognised in Malaysia as a specialist degree and thus there is no point doing it unless you are planning to go to Singapore or UK. The only option if you want to become a surgeon is to do local Master’s Programme. So, you can’t become a surgeon in Malaysia by doing MRCS.
The real life of a MOH doctor is not as simple as the pathway that you had created. You can apply for your Master’s after 3 years of service , including HO.
dear sir,
thks for wonderful information you provide in ur blog…seriously i wish i had read this when i was a medical student or even before that
coming to me im a mo in district hospital graduated frm a university( melaka manipal twinning programme) which is not recognised in india.my husband is an indian , kid malaysian and im plnning to settle there
i have few questions:
1)since i still have one more year of compulsory service is it advisable to quit the job now n if at all i cum back later and rejoin in contract basis will i have to do housemanship al over again
2)if at all i join masters programe in local u,its not recognise in india then what should i do?what r the others options available
3)if i were to quit n work (even in hospital administration in india what should i do…i understand that i cant even sit for the indian entrance test as im not an indian citizenship
thk you sir
1) if you had completed housemanship, there is no need to redo housemanship but you still need to complete the remaining years of compulsory service.
2) no other options, you need to work in Malaysia unless India is willing to recognised you as a specialist.
3) I am really not sure what you can do, probably do another course in India?
Dear Sir,
I have to congratulate you for creating this very informative thread.
I am a paediatric MO for about a year now. I have passed MRCPCH Part 1 and 2. I am comtemplating in attempting the Clinicals sometime very soon, say February next year.
I had been receiving differing views on specialist gazettement post MRCPCH and this truly messed up my thoughts.
I have heard before that one needs to be in the paediatric field for 4 years before one can be fully gazetted as a practising paediatrician. On top of that, one needs to be in training for 18months after passing MRCPCH Clinicals to be gazetted. Does this 18months counted in the 4 years?
“MD” in your earlier thread did mention this a little bit. However, I am still unclear on this. What is “pre gazettement” of 6 months?
Can you explain on the pathway one undertakes in order to be a fully gazetted MRCPCH-qualified paediatrician, and how long does all this take?
Millions of thanks to you and congratulations again…
Generally it is 18months post passing the final exam, 1 year of training and 6 months of gazettement process.
However, if you do not have adequate training, MOH may extend your post MRCPH training period. Generally most people would have been in the respective department for atleast 3 years before they pass MRCPH thus additional 1 year post MRCPCH will be adequate.
Dear Dr,
First of all, thank you for constantly giving input on the current situation.
I am a medical student in the uk (imu twinning programme) and i’m interested to come back to Malaysia one day (after specializing)……Please excuse me for asking some silly questions below:
1. Is FRCS recognized as a specialist degree in Malaysia?
2. Are there any ways that i can straight away get the FRCS without getting the MRCS first?
3. In your opinion, which medical/surgical specialty is lacking doctors now?
4. In your previous post, you mainly mentioned about things pertaining to junior doctors, but are the specialists/consultants treated well in Malaysia?
5. Lastly, what are your opinions on the doctors that imu produces?
Thanks a lot sir!
1) FRCS is recognised in Malaysia
2) Nope, you need MRCS to enter surgical training programme in UK after which you will receive FRCS.
3) In surgical: neurosurgery (you will hate your life), plastic, Cardiothoracic, oncology. For medical: Haematology, Oncology, Radionuclear physician, endocrinology, rheumatology, neurology
4) nope!
5) IMU use to be good but lately I have been seeing poor products as well. Probably because there were the first private medical school before and thus got all the good students. However with too many medical schools now, the quality of students getting into their medical school may not be that great!
Dr Pagalavan, I’m an avid reader of your blog and came across this comment on IMU.
My younger sister is about to finish her A-Levels and is planning to join the Dentistry program at IMU this year. She has received her conditional offer so far.
What is your opinion on IMU’s Dentistry program please?
Should she accept the offer Sir?
Thank You Dr Pagalavan.
IMU dentistry programme only started in 2008, which means they have not produced any graduates yet. Thus, it is difficult to comment on the quality of products. However, they have 2 types of programme, the local programme which is NOt internationally recognised and the twinning programme which is a better option if you got money.
Thanks for the advice on IMU’s Dentistry Programme Dr Pagalavan!
Sir, how would you compare Manipal’s Dentistry Programme with IMU’s Dentistry (if possible!) …my mum is wondering actually for my little sister.
Really appreciate your feedback Dr, thank you.
Have a pleasant weekend!
it also started only in 2009 and thus I can;t comment much about their quality. Their medical graduates quality is questionable, I would rather choose IMU than MMMC.
Dear Dr,
I’m a 4th year medical student studying in IMU. I have been wondering about MRCP. I’m actually quite confused, if we do MRCP, does it mean that we can specialise in any field of our interest or it’s limited to certain specialties? I have been thinking 2 specialise in Obs, but I’m still not sure whether it will give me a bright future. What is Dr’s opinion on this?
Thank you.
MRCP is to become a physician and then you need to subspecialise. Please read my blog entry on “step by step approach to specialisation in Internal Medicine”.
What do you mean by bright future? Money? I will say this again and again that there is NO money in medicine anymore! Doing obstetrics is very stressfull and the insurance coverage is the highest. I know of an Obstetrician who just joined a private hospital as a 3rd O&G specialist since Dec and his income per month has not crossed 5K!!
Dear Dr,
I’m currently a medical officer in ENT in one of the hospitals in malaysia. I have passed part 1 and 2 of the MRCS. My question are:
1. does having MRCS allow you exemption in part 1 Malaysian Masters Programme? if yes, then is MRCS (ENT) eligable for the same?
2. Is FRCS in ENT recognized in Malaysia? i have heard of stories that they are not but have no reliable source to confirm it.
3. Working in Malaysia as an ent surgeon is what i plan in the future but the masters programme is still elusive to my reach. Is there anywhere else i can continue my training that can allow me to continue the working as an ent surgeon when i finally come back to malaysia?
I appreciate any helpful feedbacks.
thank you.
1) I don;t think so.
2) FRCS is recognised in Malaysia but not MRCS. Unfortunately you can’t do FRCS training in Malaysia as it is not recognised except for FRCS (Opthalmology). Please visit http://www.nsr.gov.my website for further info on recognised degree.
3) try Singapore.
Dear Dr,
I’m currently an overseas medical student and will graduate in 2015. Since there is a glut of medical students and housemans in Malaysia, do you think it’s worth coming back? Even if I am sponsored (MARA), would paying back gradually what I owed do justice, or do you think I must serve immediately after I graduate? And I don’t understand why the government is still listing ‘medicine’ as a critical field (for JPA scholarship) since there are too many Malaysians medical students all over the world!
Usually I tell all government sponsored students to come back and serve the country as you are paid by our taxes. Most of the people who stay back will never come back as the salary here will never be the same. Many who come back do so due to family reasons. JPA hate doctors!! Most the PTD officers in the department don’t really like doctors especially when we demand higher allowances and pay. For them, all government servants are the same, what is so special about doctors? 5 years ago when I attended a meeting with JPA on behalf of MMA (Schomos), they had already predicted there will be surpluss of doctors by 2012-2015, thus I really don’t understand why they keep listing it as critical and still sending students to overseas, including MARA who is probably clueless about all that is happening in the job market! MARA is only interested in producing infinite numbers of bumiputera this and that just to satisfy the government’s agenda and totally forgetsabout the job prospects of each field. Just look at UITM who is gearing to produce 250 000 graduates by 2015!! Where are the jobs?
AGREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!
hi dr,
i am a houseman (3rd posting) and planning to take mrcp on next year januari. However, i heard that there is shortage of the clinical oncologist and this field does earn a lot of money. can i know the difference between clinical oncologist and radiation oncologist?which one is better and makes more money? For me, i m interest in oncology so far.
Is it true that both of these sub-speciality need MRCP prerequisite to become such sub-specialist?
I appreciate anyl feedbacks.
thank you very much.
I don’t know where you heard that Oncology makes money!! One of the reason why there are not many oncologist around is because it is not a money making business unless you are in a big private hospital. Most oncologist in big private hospitals do make money but each BIG private hospital probably need only 1-2 oncologist, that’s it. Smaller hospitals do not have enough facilities to run oncology services.
The chemo drugs and radiotherapy are VERY expensive and not many patients can afford it. Insurance covers only small portion of it. Usually only corporate figures and rich people seek oncology treatment from private hospitals. The rest will go to government hospital where the drugs are given free!!
Yes, you need MRCP or even Master’s in surgery. However, if I am not mistaken, there is Master’s in Oncology programme in one of our local university. Radiation oncologist only deals with radiotherapy and they usually don’t see patients compared to clinical oncologist who assesses the cancer patient and decides what to do with the pt, interms of best treatment options.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am a final year medical student and I am 8 months aways from completing my medical degree from IMU.
I have already made up my mind in specializing in the field of surgery however I have hit a barrier with the latest revelations of the accepted certifications for one to practice as a surgeon in Malaysia. This has come as a big disappointment to me as I opted to complete my degree locally when I had the chance to twin to a foreign country.
Thus i have decided that it time for me to leave Malaysia if it come down to it in order to see my dream through.
I would really appreciate any guidance from your behalf on the right path towards becoming a surgeon (and in a shortest duration possible). Should I do MRCS? And if so, whats happens after i have completed my MRCS part 3?
Or is there any other way for me to be accepted into any country to be trained as a surgeon. I am all ready to study and sit for any sort of examination thrown at me if that is what it is going to take.
Please help me Sir.
How about taking the USMLE, considering you have already decided to leave the country? A Step 1 score above 230 should get you into a general surgery residency in the US (again exams shouldn’t be a problem for you right?)
Oh and residency programs in the US tend to be shorter than training programs in the Commonwealth countries.
Graduated from a college where most of my batchmates r either Americans or students who have made it to states i would like to share bit of info regarding Surgical Residency in states.It is not easy as u think to even be accepted into any surgical field there.I have way too many friends who r over achievers with double 99% scores on USMLE exams,gold medalists,tons of letters of recomendations,publications, got rejected for applying to surgical branch.Apparently most of the surgical branches r reserved only for American graduates(frm USA med schools) . Internal medicine and Paediatrics r much easier to get.Maybe due to lower pay scale.Dont take my word for it do check out with others as well.Take care n all the best
I never said that it’s going to be a walk in the park; you’d be deluded to think that a surgical residency will just drop from the sky into your hands. Which is why most IMGs start with preliminary Gen. Surg. on a J-1 visa. Granted, IMGs tend to find it easier to enter fields such as internal medicine and paediatrics simply because the locals wouldn’t do it (O&G seems to be pretty unpopular as well). See, the Americans have to pay off their massive medical school fees and what better way to do it than enter those high-paying specialties eg ophthalmology and plastic surgery. Having said that, the hardest specialties to enter (near impossible for IMGs) have to be radiology and dermatology; you’d need to be AOA to even be considered for these two residencies.
Local IMU degree is not recognised elsewhere and thus you can’t go anywhere unless you sit for their medical qualification exams.
MRCS is not recognised in Malaysia as a surgical degree. Unfortunately no hospitals in Malaysia is a recognised training centre for FRCS. However, you can go to Singapore after MRCS for further training to do FRCS. Otherwise the only option is to do local Master’s programme.
There is no such thing as shortest time for surgery. Passing exams is nothing in surgery as you need a lot of hands on training before you can become competent!
can mbbs graduate frm india work in singapore..?? is it true that mbbs graduate from india is highly regarded for their clinical skills..?
Your degree need to be recognised in singapore. Pls check with Singapore Medical Council. As for the second question, unfortunatly, the answer is no in general. There are good ones and bad ones. Some are good in theory but poor with their skills.
Hello sir,
Recently I heard that another way to do postgrad is by joining the ministry of defence. Meaning that once completed 2 years housemanship with MOH, apply to join military, after around 6 months of basic military training, then start working in military hospital as an M.O. They say that to do postgrad under MINDEF, the competition would be less hectic and in terms of salary, there’s a lot more allowances compared to being doc in MOH. Chances for promotion is also more promising. Can you please comment on this, at the best of your knowledge sir? Thank you.
Yes, you are right. You will be become a “Captain” after the 6 month’s training and postgraduate training will be sponsored by MINDEF.The benefits are also better but most of your life will be inside the military camp and military hospitals. You will also be bonded with MINDEF for few years. You need to follow military rule and their hospitals mainly treat their own personel and not the public.
I love to reply your question Kay on behalf.
I’m one of the many Military MO-the glut to undergo postgraduate training slot is same like our colleagues in MOH. Worst part of it, before you apply for master programme, your must work with them at least 5 years and you must sign up as a REGULAR army and be ready to work until 55 COMPULSORY.
Now that’s the dilemma faced by most military MO. Majority don’t like it!
Just my 2 cents..MH
hi all… Just to inform that the value of MRCS qualification in Malaysia:
1. If u have mrcs diploma, u hv more chances of getting into the master in surgery programme. Joing the master is though with high competition. U needs to pass an entrant exam and the interview. If u pass the MRCS, then the entrant exam is easy. People with mrcs score more marks during the interview.
2. If u in UKM master surgery prog, u will be exempted from the part 1 examination…
I regretted not taking mrcs exam earlier.
Sir,
I graduated MBBS frm India(recognized by all the medical councils known) a yr ago and been preparing for Indian entrance exams for MD/MS.I got post graduation seats for my rank this yr in non govt college but due to circumstances i have decided to come work in malaysia though honestly i prefer to be doing my Masters now then work for gud.
Im more interested in para/non clinical subjects like Pathology,Community Med,Hosp Admi, or Transfusion medicine and due to the fact tht its not round the clock work.
Im just gonna try to bite my teeth n finish 2 yrs of HO at least but after tht im not sure of the path of which i have to take to reach my field of interest.
1.How do i go about if i want to do my Master’s here in related field? Can i apply after HO?
2.Is it easier to apply for foreign colleges(other than india) for para/non clinicals?
3.Will my 2yrs post HO be of any value outside Malaysia later?
4.I dont wish to waste my Medical degree which i earned so r there any other option for me post HO in Malaysia with decent salary n working hours?
Thank u for your time Sir
Are you a Malaysian or Indian citizen?
Malaysian
If you are a Malaysian, why are you applying to do Master’s from India? It is not recognised in Malaysia!
1) to do Master’s in Malaysia, you need to complete your HO and atleast 1 year of MOship. Even then, there is no gurantee that you will get a place. The least popular the field that you are applying the better the chance.
2) Depends on the colleges and your MBBS degree recognition. You must also make sure that the post graduate degree is recognised in Malaysia
3) Housemanship training in Malaysia is recognised as long as MMC can issue ” Certificate of Good Standing” . You must also complete your 4 years compulsory service in Malaysia.
4) Please read my article on ” For future doctors: What if ………………..”
3)
Thank u for reply Sir,
I know Indian PG degrees r nor recognized in Malaysia but I find it easier option to get into the speciality tht im interested in(Indian entrance exams r one of the toughest to get in coz of number of doctors r plenty with minimal seats, but working hard preparing for exam for a yr will most often pay off for non clinicals)I dont mind settling anywhere as long as i can get into the field of my choice.
Govt bond for 4 yrs is a bit too much for me.I dont wanna be doing PG when im grey n frail(exaggerated version)I have decided on non clinicals so obviously I ll be questioning bout 4 yrs bond which i consider bit of time consuming.
So Sir isnt there anything else I can do with my 2 yrs post HO in Malaysia? Been coming across pharma company jobs n research.Does tht require completion of MO as well?
So what is the point of doing Master’s in India when it is not recognised in Malaysia, unless you want to work in India? Actually, 4 years will pass by very fast. As long as you are fully registered with MMC, no problem in getting pharma /research based jobs. It seems like you are not interested in clinical medicine, so why did you do medicine in the first place? You should have done basic science course and then Master’s where you would have more choices to go about.
Sir,
As i said before I dont have any problem working anywhere.India being no exception.Im coming back now due to circumstances.
I never said im not interested in clinical medicine its just tht i prefer para clinical due to interest during mbbs days n time factor.Clinical medicine is not the only branch for doctors right sir.Para clinicals forms the foundation in medicine.Im aware in Malaysia most ppl only think of clinical medicine doctors as true doctors.
Its matter of interest.Not all decisions we take regarding our future at 18yrs r clear.Our reasons and circumstances can change over yrs.Yet Im proud to say Im a Doctor.
As you said yrs wil go by fast.Let me get started n c wht can be done later.Thank u so much Sir for all ur replies.
Dear sir,
I am an MBBS doctor from Bangladesh,I tried to contact some of the universities including University of Malaysia through e-mail regarding post-graduation courses in medical science. But unfortunately didn’t get a reply. Can u please let me know the procedure and courses in details. I have gone through the website of UM and found there are a lot of post-graduation courses and I am interested in either Master of Emergency Medicine , Master of Internal Medicine or Master of Anesthesiology. But after reading your previous posts, now I am confused about the recognition of these degrees. Can you please clarify me about whether these degrees are recognized internationally or not.
1 more thing i wanted to know, if I do my post-graduation from UM, is there any scope for working as a Doctor in Malaysia? I want to settle down in Malaysia and pursue my career as a physician in Malaysia. Can you please let me know the requirements and rules as an overseas doctor to get the work permit.
Thank you.
Master’s degree in Malaysia is mainly for Malaysian citizens only. They do offer some seats for foreign doctors especially from some Middle East countries since some of these countries do recognise Malaysian Master’s degree. Other than that, our Master’s degree is NOT recognised elsewhere.
To work in Malaysia, your undergraduate degree need to be recognised by Malaysian Medical Council. If at all you do Master’s from UM, you can work under contract basis in Malaysia but you are not entitled for any subspeciality training under Ministry of Health as it is only open for Malaysians. Furthermore, you can only work in the government hospitals and NOT private sector unless you are a PR.
Thank you so much for your reply sir, I feel so disheartened after getting your reply as I was eagerly hoping for a positive response. But is there still any chance of getting into the malaysian health system as a Doctor?
Also how can I know whether my MBBS degree is recognized by the Malaysian medical council.? And can you suggest me any university in Malaysia/Singapore/Australia for post-graduation studies. Is there any scope of working in Malaysia with my current MBBS degree?
Please check at the Malaysian Medical Council website(www.mmc.gov.my). After you complete your housemanship in Bangladesh and if your degree is recognised in Malaysia, you can apply to work as a medical officer under contract basis. However, this does not guarantee a place for Master’s. With the current glut of doctors in Malaysia, the Ministry is less likely to recruit anymore foreign doctors. In Malaysia, you can try UM, UKM or USM, Singapore : NUS, many in Australia .
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Greetings to you and hat’s off on a remarkable embarkation to educate us medical professionals, (the ignorant ones.)-referring to myself at least.
I m very keen on doing my MRCOG and would like your thoughts regarding it.
1) Im in my last stages of housemanship and was planning to sit for the mrcog part 1–any pros and cons on it..?
2)a)Can i go to the UK and specialize 4 years in ONG after my HO training
b) or after my mo-ship/compulsory service..? I hear the UK has once again started letting
the doors loose for freign docs to come in.?
3) Any ideas regarding patients preferences in male or female specialist in ONG according
to your knowledge and experience with coleagues..i have been terribly discouraged by
every other senior docs as a male doc, it will be very competitive in the ONG field-with
regards to patients..? as they prefer female docs..is this true.. help.
4) Is there any other exam that i can do other than MRCOG that will be recognised here in
malaysia for ONG exams..?
Thank you for your reply sir..
Hungry specialist to be
1) Go ahead but however , after you pass Part 1, you need atleast 4 years training in O&G department to sit for Part 2. You may be transferred out to district hospitals after housemanship and thus there is no guarantee that you can stay in GH.
2) Is your degree recognised in UK? All MBBS degree obtained outside UK need to sit and pass the PLAB entrance exam in order to work in UK.
3) Generally, patients prefer a female doctors but at the moment there are more male obstetricians than female in Malaysia. If you are planning to go to private sector and you have a female O&G colleague, your income will definately be lower!
4) only local Master’s
hmmmm.yes i am aware of that…
transferred out to district will be hard to practise then..
yes i have to sit for the plab examintion as my degree is not recognised with the uk, only in the WHO list..
Thank you for your reply dear Dr Pagalavan
All the best.
i’m a 4th year medical student at russia..i know most of people look down on russian med grad…but actual truth is their system really good in the way of teaching n praticing..its js too much of corruption give oppurtunity most of student to play fool around…but some ouf us really passionate towards our degree..i m passionate to become neurosurgeon and i plan to migrate somewhere…i just wandering about my next step..could you guide me..
first, when can i actually sit for MRCS? do i need a year ++ in HOship?
second, do MRCS will benefit me in becoming a neurosurgeon?
third, what is the next step after completing MRCS in becoming a neurosurgeon? (either local or overseas)
fourth, if i plan to do local master program, how many years do i need before doing sub in neurosurg?
fifth, MS(neurosurgery) USM, is it recognized by UK? can i practice it in other country as a neurosurgeon?
sixth, how to apply for surgical prog in singapore?
seventh, which way should i choose sir in becoming a surgeon? local or other way? if only i can choose ;(
eight :which is better pathway to become neurosurgeon..pls do guide me…
1)You can only sit for MRCS Part A anytime after graduation but I strongly feel it is better to sit after 1 year of housemanship. Remember, everything cost money! It is better to be well prepared.
2) If you are in Malaysia and have completed all the parts of MRCS , you have better opportunity to get into Master’s programme. With MRCS, you can also get a job in Singapore or UK for further training. However, MRCS is not a recognised degree to become a surgeon in Malaysia. You still need Master’s
3) LOcally, you only have 2 options in becoming neurosuergeon: do Master’s in Surgery and then subspecialise in neurosuregry or do Master’s in Neurosurgery by USM. Having MRCS is not going to get you anywhere in Malaysia except making it easier to get Master’s programme.
4) Local Master’s is 4 years then 6 months gazettement and another 1 year wait before getting into neurosurgical training which is another 4 years.
5) NO, local Master’s IS NOT recognised elsewhere. Thus, you will not be recognised anywhere else.
6) After completing MRCS, you can try to apply for registra post in one of the hospitals in Singapore. You need to apply to individual hospital;
7) Whichever way you choose, the time taken will still be the same, only the recognition differs.
8) Personally, I still feel it is better to do General surgery first before subspecialising in neurosurgery. Most countries do this as you still need basic surgical skills even though some may argue that neurosurgery has nothing to do with general surgery!
Finally, it is better for you to decide what you want to specialise after finishing your housemanship. In Malaysia, neurosurgery is the MOST depressing field. Almost 95% of the time you are going to be dealing with Head Injury secondary to road accidents and Intracranial bleed where the prognosis is generally poor. Rarely , you will be operating on brain tumours. Don’t get acrried away by TV programmes and major referral centres.
Dr. Pagalavan,
I just need some consulation, i am a 4th year medical student from peking university of china. On completion of my mbbs, i am hopeful to apply for a housemanship in malaysia.
I would like to know wheter my chances are slim or not (by that i mean , wheter malaysia has a policy of favouring home taught medical students) ? in that case i will have to aplly for a housemanship in someother country. I would also like some guidance on how long the internship is and if i can become a specialist in singapore? if possible,could you kindly list me the duration of the following specialities i am intrested in.
1)Anesthesiology
2)Internal medicine (general)
3)Oncology
4)General surgery
5)Cardio vascular surgery
6)Gynacology
7)Pedeatrics
Thank you very much
First of all, your degree need to be recognised in Malaysia in order for you to work here. Same goes for Singapore. Since you will be graduating next year, there should still be vacancy for housemanship in Malaysia. Housemanship in Malaysia is 2 years and in Singapore, is still 1 year if I am not mistaken. As for specialities, plese read my article on ” step by step approach to speciality”, under my For future doctors series. After that if you have any question, then ask me.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I would like to get some advice regarding training and career in anaesthesiology. I am currently CT2 in anaesthesiology in the UK, and my fiancee has just completed MBBS in UK. We are planning to return to Malaysia or somewhere closer within the next year or two, and we both would like to get good quality anaesthesiology training recognised in Malaysia. We can continue our careers in the UK, but choose not to. My fiancee would need to complete her housemanship / FY1 for a GMC registration and there is the option of doing it in the UK, Malaysia or Singapore. We both have a particular interest in regional anaesthesia and have had some training in it.
My questions would be
1. what are your thoughts in regards to where to get the best anaesthesiology training (we are actually thinking of Singapore or Malaysia, but are also opened to other countries as long as they are closer to home) ? I understand that we can do the masters program locally, but that doesn’t guarantee quality and not recognised elsewhere, at the same time, we are concerned that our training elsewhere might not be recognised in Malaysia since FRCA is no longer recognised. We would like to have the option to practice in Malaysia eventually.
2. How would you compare between the options in terms of career prospect ?
3. What would be the route required for each of the options (e.g. need for membership exams / masters etc including expected length of time) ?
4. How much emphasis would be placed on academic work such as publications ? (We both have publications in peer reviewed journals)
5. What are the likely competition ratios ?
6. Taking my fiancee’s need to complete one year of housemanship / FY1 into account, how would you suggest we plan our relocation ?
I appreciate that it is a lot to ask for, but I would be really grateful if you can share some thoughts. Thank you.
Generally, I would advise people to complete their specialist training in UK before coming back, unless you are a gov sponsored student. Fellow of the College of Anaesthetists, England (FCA (Eng) is recognised in Malaysia as a postgraduate degree, pls visit http://www.nsr.gov.my
1) Master’s not recognised. You can do your training in Malaysia/Singapore. Master’s of anaesth from Singapore is also recognised in Malaysia. The other option is FRNZA but only certain hospitals in Malaysia is a recognised training centre : UMMC, HKL, IJN, Penang. You can visit their website.
2) If you talking about private practise in Malaysia, it is the same in term of prospect. BUT the market is getting saturated.
3) Master’s in 4 years programme. You need to complete HO for 2 years, MO for 1 year atleast before applying for Master’s. No guarantee that you will get in first try.
4) Most Master;s student need to present a thesis at the end of their programme.
5) Very competitive. Only 800 Master’s seat are allocated this year for all disc iplines !!
6) Up to you. Better to complete Housemanship in UK but MMC may stil ask you to complete another year of Housemanship according to Malaysia’s guideline.
You can contact Nav at acacia_avenue@yahoo.com if you need further info regarding anaesth training in Malaysia and FANZA
Since I was mentioned:
1. If you want an internationally recognized qualification AND want to train in Singapore or Malaysia, you should go through the ANZCA training process. They recognise placements in Aus, NZ, HK, Malaysia (some hospitals) and Singapore. The FRCA is still recognised in Malaysia, so I don’t know where you got that piece of information from. It’s training in Malaysia that is not recognised for the FRCA. One thing to note, however, is that ANZCA only recognises one year of UK training. You will get more experience in Malaysia but need to be posted to particular hospitals. Singapore is Singapore, if you’re Malaysian you’ll know what I mean.
2. Both countries are short of specialists in the govt sector. Work in private sector for anaesthetists is drying up. Older ones don’t wanna retire, still interested in saving up.
3. Singapore Master is 6 years, Malaysia 4, and ANZCA 5. All have very similar exams. Your FRCA Part 1 will exempt you from the Malaysian or Singaporean Part 1, but not the ANZCA Part 1.
4. None in Malaysia. Don’t know about Singapore.
5. Both are competitive for different reasons.
6. Your personal choice.
Hi, I’m a final year medical student in the UK. Can I ask you about the gmc registration. What is the value of certification as opposed to a medical degree? I’m not sure if it gives any added advantage if I was to go back to the UK in 10 years time. I’m a JPA scholar and would like to go back to the UK after my bond is completed. Should I spend a year doing F1 or not? If it does have benefits, can you please point me to where that is stated in the GMC website please.
If I am not mistaken, you should be able to get full GMC registration after completing FY1. A medical degree is nothing if it is not recognised or registrable by a medical council. E.g: medical degrees from Malaysia is not recognised elsewhere and thus our graduates can’t work anywhere else as it is not registrable. This is something perculiar to medical degree throughout the world. As a JPA scholar you are bonded and should come home to serve. BY the time you complete your bond, you will have further bonds for Master’s or subspeciality training ! There is no point going back to UK after 10 years as the chances for you to get a post is very slim.
If I am allowed to do my f1 training there by jpa, do you think i should take it up to get registered by gmc. Or should i just come back to malaysia
If JPA allows, then should be OK but whether you need GMC or not depends on what you want to do later. If you are planning to stay put in Malaysia then there is no point. Remember that even if you finish FY1 in UK and come home, you still need to complete your housemanship in Malaysia for another year.
Only one year of HO?
HO is for 2 years but if you have done 1 year in UK , you just need to add another 1 year in Malaysia
and also will a gmc registration be favorable when applying to nz/ singapore/ aus. or will a degree from the uk be good enough?
A degree is good enough. GMC is only for UK and EU.
Hi Renu,
For NZ, you need general registration with the GMC, meaning you have to had done your FY1 there at least. The degree alone means you are only provisionally registered, and hence not eligible to work here. If I recall correctly, it is the same for Aus. Singapore might be different, not sure.
Thank you very much dr. Have a nice day
thanks nav. different opinions on this issue?
Not a different opinion, merely stating the facts. I do pity Dr Pag sometimes cos he gets asked lots and lots of questions – answers to which can easily be found (most of the time) if the people who asked them searched for the answers themselves by going to the websites of the relevant regulatory bodies.
If you have a UK degree, and you want to work in Aus, NZ or Singapore under the general/full registration category (meaning not have to do internship/housemanship again), you have to have done your FY1 in the UK. Otherwise your British degree is useless – you have to work as an intern/houseman again (assuming there are spaces available – because these are usually reserved for their own graduates). They do not recognise your Malaysian housemanship. If you have a postgraduate qualification, then you apply thru a different pathway. All their websites clearly state this:
http://www.mcnz.org.nz/Registration/Formspoliciesandfees/Registrationpolicies/tabid/106/Registration/Formspoliciesandfees/Registrationpolicies/PolicyonregistrationinNewZealand/UKIrishgraduates/tabid/177/Default.aspx
http://www.smc.gov.sg/html/1153709442754.html
http://www.amc.org.au/index.php/img/ca
Thanks nav
Hi,
I was informed by JPA that I have to return upon grad. I asked if I can sign a 10 year bond after finishing f1 but the answer is no. sigh.
Can i ask, why does mara encourage its students to stay in the uk? is that not tax payers money? is it a scholarship or loan?
MARA has no bond and thus they can do what they want. It is mainly loan with 1% payback if they complete the studies.
JPA is a full scholarship and thus you need to come home to serve the bond.
Dear dr pagalavan and dr nav,
I am a fourth year medical student in IMU. i am malaysian with australian pr. can you both please answ
1.will i be treated equal to australian grads and locals
2.i want to return to malaysia after specializing. at which level will i be entering the malaysian medical system in private and government. and where do i go from there
3.what is the hierarchy in australia’s medical system and what course of training will i have to go through (the fastest)
Thank you in advance.
This blog is very informative, a great effort and well done.
First of all, your IMU degree is not recognised in Australia. You can only work in Australia if you sit and pass the AMC exam. Being a PR is of no use if you can’t pass AMC exam. Nav has explained to you regarding the equal oppourtunity issues. However, please remember that whatever speciality you are going to do depends on availability of post. I knwo of some who wants to come back as they could not get a training post in sugery.
Australian postgraduate degrees are recognised in Malaysia. If you are a gazetted specialist in Australia and comes back to Malaysia, the grade that you are acepted into government service depends on your seniority. The more senior you are, the higher the grade.
You can go directly to private sector if you had worked overseas for more than 10 years. I knwo many Malaysians who worked for so many years in Taiwan beginning to come home and joining private hospitals.
Fastest training do not necessarily make you a better doctor/surgeon! Please do not think of which field you want to specialise or which field will bring more money at this point of time. THings will change and the private sector is also getting saturated. You can decide after you complete your housemanship/
Shalina,
I am assuming you are doing your clinicals in Seremban because you’re fourth year and still at IMU.
1. With your Aussie PR, you will be treated as equal as Australians in terms of applying for jobs. However, your degree is another story. You have to sit the AMC exam, which I would recommend doing while you are a houseman in Malaysia.
2. Currently, if you have worked overseas for 10 years, you can enter private straight away in Malaysia if you come home. However, this will be at least 12 years away for someone like you and many things might change by then. If you have specialised overseas with a recognised postgrad and come back to work for the govt, you will be a specialist but I don’t know on what payscale or if a period of gazettement is required. Dr Pag might have more info.
3. What do you mean by hierarchy? They have interns (PGY1 house officers), senior house officers, registrars, fellows and consultants. In Aus and NZ, you can become a registrar as early as PGY3. In the UK, a person usually becomes a reg in PGY5 (what in Aus or NZ would be called a senior reg). But that is a small difference. Fasted course of training would be to become a GP, which is 3 years. Other specialties take 5-6 years from the time you get on to the programme – usually later for those coming from overseas like yourself.
Piece of advice: Take things one step at a time. Concentrate on your IMU exams and start working towards the AMC exams once you’re a HO. Once in Aus, you will have a year of ‘supervised’ work, where you will be made to do intern-type runs. During that time, you can think about what area you want to specialise in. Choose something you enjoy doing, with the type of people that you get along with. Don’t choose based on money or duration.
preethi
Dear sir,
I finished my M.B.B.S(5 and a half years) and Diploma in Ophthalmology (2 years)in India . I am interested in doing my fellowship in the U.S, since the eligibilty is 3 years of post graduate training in order to apply for the same, I intend to further do a fellowhsip for 1 year in India and then give my USMLE . Is this the right thing to do? How difficult is it to get a fellowship in ophthalmology in the US? Also kindly tel me the difference of doing FRCS for 7 years in the UK and giving the FRCS exams from India itself, with the latter can i apply for a job in the UK? Am i eligible to give MRCophthal at present?
I am sorry but I am not sure about this. Better to do USMLE now it self and then apply for a post in US.
Dear preethi,
You might as well forget about the UK. The gov has imposed a ruling that when you apply for visa, they restrict you from applying for training post, that is to say that you can no longer complete your FRCOphth in the UK. The only exception to that is if you graduate from a UK medical school.
Dear Dr,
I am a House Officer (HO), currently practising in Malaysia. I would like to ask regarding the acceptance into the Masters program offered by our local universities. As I have already gone through most of the posts prior to mine, I came to understand that there is a requirement of achieving a minimum of 85% SKT points. My question is this: do the SKT marks I obtain during my housemanship matter and would if affect my chances in getting into a Masters program in the future?
I would like to also ask regarding the anaesthesiology program in Malaysia. Is FRCA recognized in Malaysia, if so, where and when are the exams held? With that said, I would like to gather more information regarding the Masters programme as well.
My current fields of choice are Orthopaedics and Anaesthesiology, in that order. I may sound paranoid but I totally agree with your point on the influx of doctors and the level of competition that might surface in the coming years, hence the anxiety. Appreciate your input and apologies if I am asking a question that has already been answered before this. Thank you.
The SKT will be for the last 3 years before you apply for Master’s. FRCA ( England) is recognised but if I am not mistaken, you can’t undergo training for it in Malaysia. BUT you can sit for FANZA , however only training in HKL, UMMC, Penang GH and IJN is recognised.
hello sir,
im going to finish housemanship soon.i would like your opinion regarding future in becoming psychitric moedical officer and what is the demand in oversea since i would like to go abroad.and what are the exams i need to sit
please reply soon
thank you
The only way to become a Psychiatrist is by doing local Master’s programme but unfortunately it is NOT recognised elsewhere and you will not be able to work anywhere else as a psychiatrist. Unless you go now to overseas and do your training there.
to doctor pagalavan, thanks to this broad information of yours , .this would surely give postgraduates the idea and awareness about the specified issues and matters . ..
Dear sir,
This is my second mail to you.this time i want to know whether there is any scope for foreign doctors to do housemanship in any of the hospitals/medical college in Malaysia and then get a license to work over there as a foreign doctor? do they pay during the housemanship? plus another thing is whether there is any scholarship programme for foreign doctors in malaysia.
Thank you
Dr. Zubair
Nope. Housemanship in Malaysia is only for Malaysians unless you are married to a Malaysian. To work in Malaysia, your basic degree mus be recognised by Malaysian Medical Council. There is no such scholarship for foreign students.
dear sir,
i am dr.johnson mbbs from india , my degree is not recognised by singapore medical council , do i have a chance to study r work in singapore as a doctor..
aslo if i clear mrcs part A can i get a training for mrcs part B in singapore plz give your advice…
No unless you pass their entrance/licensing exam. You need to clear both MRCS part before being able to do training in Singapore.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
What would the process of gazetting a specialist medical degree in Malaysia involve? My specialist degree has been recommended and approved by the National Specialist Register, Malaysia. Does this mean the degree is automatically gazetted?
Suppose to be. NSR only approves you once they are satisfied that you have completed your training. Where did you train?
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
MD Pathology from Manipal, I trained again for 4 years from Singapore and completed my MRC part 1. I have been informed by NSR about the approval and the certificate is due to arrive in august. I would be grateful if you can brief me a little about the gazetting for the degree which will complete my entire medical registration in Malaysia.
Are you a Malaysian?
No. But have been offered a job in Malaysia.
It depends on who offered the job? Public or private sector? Lab or hospital?
Would you please explain the differences between private and public sector hospitals to me in terms of gazettement? I would be grateful for any guidance.
I presume that NSR approved you as a Pathologist. For you to practise in Malaysia, you need to get MMC registration as well. If you going to work as a lecturer then nothing more is necessary. However private hospitals and labs can’t employ a foreigner as their Pathologist unless they are unable to get anyone despite advertising atleast 3 times. If you can get MMC registration then you don’t need any gazettment process.
I have been granted full registration by MMC. Thanks. I can breathe now.
Dear sir, i had just received an offer letter from aimst? i do have few questions to ask.. is aimst recognized by other countries? can i continue my postgrad after i finish my degree in aimst.? if yes after i had finished my postgrad in overseas can i work in other countries such as spore regardless my degree is from aimst?? your guidance is so much appreciated
Our degree in Malaysia is not recognised in other countries. Even postgrad as well..
AIMST degree is NOT recognised elsewhere! You can’t work in other countries unless you sit for their entrance exam. What overseas postgraduate degree are you talking about ?
You can sit for MRCP or MRCS and go to Singapore to work as registra.
First of all, I would like to thank you for making this blog so informative. It is simply great! I have a few questions :
1. After I have taken MRCP (UK) Part 1, 2 and 3 in Malaysia, and undergoing gazettement for 18 months to become a specialist. Can I pursue my subspecialty training in most of the countries since MRCP (UK) is internationally recognized and it is the entry exam for specialty in UK and most of the countries? Are MRCP (UK), MRCS, etc… the ways to pursue subspecialty training in the overseas?
2. If we take MRCP (UK) in Malaysia, does it mean that we can only become specialist in Malaysia?
3. You mentioned that we can do our MRCP (Part 3 ) training in Singapore. Once we have completed MRCP (Part 3) training in Singapore, are we considered as specialists in Singapore? In addition, can we do our subspecialty training in Singapore as well?
4. If compared to IMU local degree MBBS, will Monash (Malaysia branch campus) be easier to pursue postgraduate studies since it is recognized by Australian Medical council ?
I am a Jpa scholar who is going to enroll into IMU local MBBS degree, i need ur advices urgently. Thanks a lot =)
1) Possible. Especially in UK and Singapore.
2) NO. It is recognised as an entry to speciality training in UK. However, in Malaysia, after 18 months, you can be known as a specialist but not in other countries.
3) NO, infact now you can do all the parts of MRCS in Malaysia BUT it is not a specialist degree. Yes, you can further you training in Singapore after MRCS.
4) Depends on what postgraduate you are talking about. For local Master’s , it does not matter. If you intend to go to Australia , then Monash will be better but NOT necessary easier to get into postgraduate training.
Forget about the UK, unless you grad from one of their partner med schools in UK, you can’t even enter the system. they specifically place a condition on your visa to prevent you from getting a training post, unless your primary MBBS is from the UK. I think you should not think of these things for now, it will be a good 7 years at least before you can consider postgrad, by that time, a lot of things would have changed.
dear sir, thank you for replying…. much appreciated … what i meant is like this… for example, i finish my degree in aimst.. then i would like to further oncology or maybe cardiology in australia, am i able to do that? is australia goin to take in students from aimst? i do appreciate ur info as this help me to think twice… THANKS…
As I said, your degree is not recognised and thus you will not be able to work and train in other countries unless you pass the entrance exam or you are just doing an attachment sponsored by MOH.
First of all, I would like to thank you for making this blog so informative. It is simply great! I have a few questions :
1. After I have taken MRCP (UK) Part 1, 2 and 3 in Malaysia, and undergoing gazettement for 18 months to become a specialist. Can I pursue my subspecialty training in most of the countries since MRCP (UK) is internationally recognized and it is the entry exam for specialty in UK and most of the countries? Are MRCP (UK), MRCS, etc… the ways to pursue subspecialty training in the overseas?
2. If we take MRCP (UK) in Malaysia, does it mean that we can only become specialist in Malaysia?
3. You mentioned that we can do our MRCP (Part 3 ) training in Singapore. Once we have completed MRCP (Part 3) training in Singapore, are we considered as specialists in Singapore? In addition, can we do our subspecialty training in Singapore as well?
4. If compared to IMU local degree MBBS, will Monash (Malaysia branch campus) be easier to pursue postgraduate studies since it is recognized by Australian Medical council ?
I am a Jpa scholar who is going to enroll into IMU local MBBS degree, i need ur advices urgently.
Thx =)
Thanks for replying. Sir, you have indeed exposed me to the real situation of postgraduate studies. Thanks a lot.
In addition, is undergoing MRCP (UK) Internal Medicine to become a Physician (Specialist) a must/ compulsory to pursue subspecialty training in all the countries?
Thanks for advance =)
I believe it is not ALL the countries.
MRCP is an exam formed by the 3 royal colleges of physician : 1) London, 2) Edinburgh, and 3) Glasgow. It is an exam taken by people who are doing their internal medicine training in UK, to be completed in their first 3 years (out of the total 6-8 years?) of their training.
In Malaysia, we recognize it as an EXIT exam to be a physician (internal med specialist).
Singaporeans do not sit for the MRCP. They have their own singapore Masters.
Malaysians who want to further on their training in singapore, can opt to go in with MRCP. If they are accepted, they can jump into the internal med masters program that singapore has, along with other singapore fresh graduates. There is also an option of “credit transfer”, where lets say you have worked for 3 years in the medical department, singapore might let you skip the first year of training, and join the 2nd year masters student instead.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Singaporeans DO sit for MRCP to become a registra after which they undergo subspeciality training. Master’s is a different thing all together BUT their Master’s final exam is the same exam as MRCP. That’s why most of them get MRCP and Master’s at the same time. However, recently Singapore has introduced residency system like US.
You are right about MRCP as entrance exam as I have mentioned in my blog postings before.
http://pagalavan.com
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Not in all countries. Only in countries which recognizes MRCP as an entry to speciality. eg.: US has it’s own residency programme etc etc.
Thx a lot =)
Last question I wish to ask, a FRCP holder like Dr Pagalavan gives an international recognition in medical field. Does this mean that a FRCP holder can choose to work in any country as a specialist?
Sorry for my extended curiosity. thx again =)
Not necessarily. You get the MRCP after you pass the exams, which is for ENTRY into specialist training in the UK. After 4 years of training, you get the Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT, previously known as CCST). Only then are you recognised as a specialist in the UK.
In Malaysia, you need 18 months of gazettement (versus the 4 years of semi-structured training in the UK). I do not know if this is a simple attachment or if any teaching is provided by senior specialists – Dr Paga might be able to answer this.
The FRCP is an honorary postnominal, given to select MRCP holders for various reasons. There is no exam.
If you wanted to work in countries that have a better healthcare system than Malaysia as a specialist, you need to have both the MRCP and CCT. For example, Singapore and Australia both clearly state those 2 requirements – although the MRCP alone will allow you to slot into Singapore as a registrar.
You cannot get your CCT unless you work in the UK and there are many restrictions to prevent foreigners from doing so (easier if you have a UK degree).
To be a specialist, the MRCP on its own counts for nothing unless you are in Malaysia, India, Pakistan, etc.
Thanks =) Since CCT (Certificate of Completion of Training) can only be taken in UK with so many restrictions, it is really hard to work in countries who have better healthcare system.
So, the only way to work in Singapore as a specialist is to take MRCP/ MRCS to be accepted by Singapore, and undergoing postgraduate training BST (Basic Specialist Training) and AST (Advanced Specialist Training) programmes? After going through these training (BST or AST), are we consindered as a specialist in SIngapore, or do we still need CCT? After becoming specialist in Singapore, do we have chances to do subspecialy training in Singapore as well? How about other western countries, do they clearly state that MRCP and CCT are required?
Thanks a lot .
Nope, FRCP is a honorary degree which is given to those who have contributed to medical education, publish papers and an MRCP holder of atleast 8 years and above. They must also be a consultant in their home country and be proposed by a fellow of the colleg. It is recognised in some countries and will give you certain status but not necessarily a job or position as a consultant. It is up to the respective country to decide on your application based on your experience and degree, if you are applying for a job.
So, the only way to work in Singapore as a specialist is to take MRCP/ MRCS to be accepted by Singapore, and undergoing postgraduate training BST (Basic Specialist Training) and AST (Advanced Specialist Training) programmes? After going through these training (BST or AST), are we consindered as a specialist in SIngapore, or do we still need CCT? After becoming specialist in Singapore, do we have chances to do subspecialy training in Singapore as well? How about other western countries, do they clearly state that MRCP and CCT are required?
Thanks a lot .
Having MRCP/MRCS do not make you a specialist in Singapore. You can get appointed as a registra and then go on to do AST. However, Singapore has changed their system to residency system as of this year. After AST, you will become a subspecialist.
Hello again Dr,
In your opinion, how long will it takes for me to become an orthopaedic after mbbs? To become an ortho, should I take MRCP? Or I should try masters postgrad?
The P in MRCP stands for physicians. Orthopaedic specialists are not physicians, they are surgeons (unless you’re in the US, where everyone is a physician, but they do things funny anyway).
MRCP is for specialising in internal medicine and its subspecialties.
You can take the MRCS (S = surgeons) exams in Malaysia, which can help you get on to the Masters programme, but in itself is not recognised as a specialist qualification.
So, the pathway starts from MRCS then masters only will be recognised as a specialist?
So how long will it takes before I become an ortho? Is it that i will be able to work in UK or Singapore after taking any of the subspecialties?
You can do master’s without MRCS but having MRCS is an added advantage. If you can get your Master’s slot on first try , you can become an Ortho surgeon within 7 years but this is rather unlikely with the current glut and the number of post available. Local master’s IS NOT recognised elsewhere and thus you will not be able to work in Singapore or UK as a specialist, with MRCS probably you can get a registra post if you are lucky.
MRCP is to become a physician. The only way to become an Othopaedic surgeon in Malaysia is to do Master’s. It is very competitive and some have to apply almost 3-4 years in a row before getting a place. It is one of the most popular Master’s programme. After 2 years of HO and 1 year of MO , you can apply for Master’s which is a 4 year programme but chances are, you will NOT get it in the first try!
Dear Doctor,
I’m Saranya Manoharan from Johor. My daughter is in her final year of medicine in the University of Edinburgh. She is about to apply for her F1 job in England. She is very passionate about medicine. At the moment, she is having a very difficult time deciding whether or not to come back to Malaysia to practice. She feels that after years of studying in an amazing medical school and having worked as a student doctor in a number of hospitals there, she may not be too happy with the situation here. She feels that her future career may be compromised by the training environment and unequal opportunities to progress in her career. She is not afraid of hard work and I know that she will become an amazing a doctor, therefore I can understand her fears.
It will be very helpful if you can answer these questions for me:
1. what is the actual value of a gmc certificate for a non-EU doctor
2. if she does her F1, gets certified, then comes back to Malaysia for 5 to 10 years, will having a gmc cert give her an advantage to apply overseas in the future if she wishes to (I would prefer her to come back here for a few years get married and start a family since she will be graduating only at 25). And what level will she be starting at when she goes back there again?
3. will she benefit from starting her career in the uk. If she builds herself up to a senior registrar level before coming back to malaysia, will she be able to reach consultant level more quickly than she would have here
Thank you in advance.
Kind regards,
Saranya
Other people will have their own advice, but this is mine:
Let her stay overseas in the UK for now. She should finish her FY1 and 2 years there. At that point, she can reevaluate things, her choices could be:
1. Stay in the UK to try and get on to a training programme if the situation at the time is favourable for non-EU residents.
2. If the situation in the UK isn’t favourable, and she still wants first-class postgraduate training, consider moving to Australia or NZ. Lots of Malaysian UK grads have moved to these 2 countries in the past 3-4 years. Things are getting more competitive in Aus because of their own increase in medical graduates but there will be more info when the time comes. NZ is still welcoming UK grads with open arms.
3. Move to Singapore. Especially good since you’re from Johore. However, working conditions for junior doctors in Singapore are extremely stressful. I have had friends who tried this option (move from UK to S’pore) who then moved on to Aus/NZ because of the work environment.
4. Go home to Malaysia. She will still have to work as a houseman if she hasn’t finished done the compulsory rotations in Malaysia. It will be extremely competitive for postgrad training because of the huge number of graduates and relatively small number of Masters places available. A certain amount of those places are also reserved for our bumi brethren.
I think it is extremely unfair to expect your daughter to come home, get married and have kids, and then go overseas again. Think long and hard about this.
Will her husband be able to work overseas with her? If she gets married to another doctor, this can only happen if his degree allows him to work there. Will her husband want to move in the first place, thereby possibly sacrificing his own career ambitions?
Is it fair to expect your daughter to raise a child and do postgrad study at the same time? It’s not impossible, but is this what she wants?
I was in a similar situation as your daughter 7-8 years ago. My parents let me do what I wanted, but I knew they’d be happier if I moved home. Being from a Punjabi family, my parents would get ‘enquiries’ from others about my availability but these people really don’t think straight sometimes. Most were parents of other doctors whose children would not have been able to work overseas – I was not willing to move back home to accommodate someone I barely knew in a semi-arranged marriage situation, because I was already on a training programme overseas. I’m married now, still overseas, planning to come home in the next few years and have no regrets whatsoever.
In the end, you have to talk to your daughter about this and allow her to make her decision with as much info as she can have. If family circumstances change, she can come back to Malaysia at any time. But it is important for her to at least get and maintain her GMC registration, because this allows her to move back to the UK or work in Aus/NZ if Malaysia is not where she wants to be at the time.
Dear Nav,
Thank you for the prompt reply. I’m glad things worked out as you wanted and all the best to you in becoming a career woman and a family maker at the same time. This isn’t easy and is an amazing feat. I know this being a lawyer myself. But what I want for my daughter ( I do believe that I know my daughter well enough and that I know what she wants) is to have a balanced life and this is possible looking at the women all around us today. Those 5 years will give her the opportunity to socialize and meet a man of her liking and one that would suit her lifestyle and commitments to cherish and support her throughout her life and career. I believe that family support is very important as I wouldn’t have been able to achieve half the things I have today if not for my husband and 2 children. End of my boring lecture!
You’ve mentioned that she should get her GMC certification and maintain it. I’d like to know more about this process.
1. Does she only need to do a year of F1 to be certified?
2. In order to maintain the registration, does she have to pay an annual fee (how much), during which she doesn’t necessarily have to work in the UK?
3. What is the advantage of being registered as opposed to having a degree?
4. If she returns to Malaysia for 5 to 10 years after f1 OR graduation, what are her advantages compared to other non-EU citizen / internationally recognized graduate when she reapplies to be absorbed into the UK system or anywhere else in the world?
5. Upon completion of her MRCP and having obtained a degree from the University of Edinburgh, will she not be able to get a job anywhere in the world? This was the reason why we paid for her education abroad in the first place, to allow her the flexibility to choose what she does and where she does it. She doesn’t particularly enjoy being in the UK or in the NHS system (still much better than it is in Malaysia).
5. Can MRCP not be done abroad using own expenses without having to be selected for it by the government universities and be bonded for 5 to 7 years as the Dr had said before?
All the very best to you and thank you very much.
Kind regards,
Saranya Manoharan
Dear Saranya,
I am a Malaysian who is a consultant surgeon in Glasgow, so hope that I can give you some useful perspective to your queries. Firstly, please accept my congratulations for your daughter about to complete her medical studies in a fine institution. End of one journey, start of a longer but potentially wonderful journey (if her passion holds true).
There are essentially 2 paths your daughter has ahead of her:
1) to return to Malaysia
2) not to return to Malaysia (note that this is not the same as remaining in the UK. Her degree is internationally recognised and she can potentially seek employment in most countries subject to passing local licensing exams in some nations like USA. Singapore and NZ would be pretty seamless)
Should she choose to return to Malaysia, there are 3 main options:
1) after Foundation training (2 years).
2) after obtaining a recognised postgrad diploma that means something in Malaysia (eg: MRCP, MRCOG; ~4-6 years) Note that MRCS is meaningless. Dr Paga can give you a better answer as to how much service she would need before being gazetted a specialist. This *may* mean that she becomes a consultant in Malaysia sooner than if she was to go through the M’sian system.
3) after completion of specialist training (the long haul ~10-13 years). Her specialist qualification would be fully recognised and she would be gazetted a specialist and be eligible to apply for consultant posts in Malaysia (also in the UK, for by that time, she would be a permanent resident and have no immigration barriers to her employment).
If she returns to Malaysia after Foundation training for 5-10 years, it will be near impossible for her to return to the UK to pursue specialty training (note that GP/primary care is also a specialty in UK). Firstly, there will be the massive barrier that is UK immigration law against the employment of non-EC persons. Secondly, competition for specialty training posts in the UK is fierce. After being out of the UK system for 5-10 years, she may not have a CV that matches up to her contemporaries. She will also be seen as a “foreign” trainee. Whereas if she continues in the system after Foundation training, she will be viewed by her Consultants as a “local” trainee. Yes, there are immigration issues with this, too. But they are easier to overcome than if she was to leave for 5-10 years and try to return to the UK.
Realistically speaking, if she leaves after her Foundation years, she will have no chance to return to the UK for specialty training. I would urge her and your family to think long and hard about this decision.
When she graduates from the University of Edinburgh, she will have acquired an internationally recognised medical degree. If she stays on in the UK, is prepared to work hard and has the potential, she will go on to acquire postgraduate training and degrees that are internationally recognised. If she returns to Malaysia after Foundation training, she effectively will sever all these potential advantages. Having invested so much in her education, are you willing to give all this up?
Ultimately, it really comes down to how she feels deep down inside about life in Malaysia (and the UK). Choosing to remain in the UK may mean a lot of sacrifice especially when it comes to family time which I expect will be one of the key issues.
If she remains here for 10-13 years to complete her specialist training to the very end, be prepared for the possiblity that she will choose life here over life in Malaysia and never return. But it does open the door for her future generations to live a life free from constitutional prejudice and racial persecution.
My apologies for such a long reply. Best wishes.
PS: If your daughter would like to speak with me personally for advice, I am happy to correspond with her.
Dear Jon J,
Thank you for the very detailed reply. It is reassuring to know that the wiser and more senior doctors are prepared to guide the young and aspiring ones.
Her current situation stems from the fact that she isn’t completely happy living in the UK. Otherwise, this would be an easier and straightforward path for her to progress in her career. The ideal situation in her opinion is to return home after graduation, spend less than 10 years here completing HO, MO, and MRCP. During this time she will also start a family as she would like to be married and have children by the age of 30. She doesn’t intend to do her Masters because that will only allow her to work in Malaysia. Ultimately, she would like to migrate abroad when her career had progressed along with a family to keep her company. She is willing to stay another year to obtain GMC certification providing this brings an added benefit to her future job applications elsewhere in the world. If it does, can you kindly point out where it is stated on the GMC website? I noticed that you said two years in foundation training. Is it not just one year before certification?
Please also help to clarify these.
1. What is the difference between registration and licensing?
2. What is the annual fee to renew a registration and is this possible even if the doctor is not working in the UK at the time?
3. Will she be considered a ‘foreign trainee’ if she reapplies to the UK after 5 to 10 years having been educated in a university in the UK? Is the situation any different if she is registered under the GMC?
Please accept my apologies if you had already answered some of these questions in your previous post. I will send her all these information and ask her to get in touch with you for advice if she needs clarification. It is very kind of you to offer help. Kudos for achieving a consultant post
Kind regards,
Saranya Manoharan
I think that your daughter is asking for a lot, i.e. to have a good family life and at the same time be able to progress in a medical career. Perhaps it is possible in other fields, but certainly not in medicine in the UK, at least during the training years lasting around 10 years after FY2. I am currently an anaesthesiology trainee in the UK, and from my FY1 onwards, every year I had to change Trust (hospital). It makes it very difficult to settle down let alone having a family. If your daughter have kids, they will have to relocate every year and there is no guarantee that her husband will move to the same area as her assuming that her husband is elligible to work in the UK for whatever reasons. On top of that, to be able to manage a balanced family life and at the same time progress in her career, she will need to somehow find enough time in a day to 1.do her normal duties including oncalls (and for ST1 onwards, that is quite a lot of her time), 2.study for exams 3.manage a family (especially with kids) in the UK, and on top of that find time for things that are important for career progression such as research, publication, phd etc etc. It is not impossible, but it takes quite a superwoman to be able to do it, and on top of that, her husband will have to be willing to sacrifice a lot to accommodate her career needs.
And speaking about equal opportunities, your daughter will have as good chance of getting into the masters program as the specialty training in the UK. I was in the top quartile when the ST results were out almost 3 years ago, yet they put me in the reserve list because they had to fill the post with EU nationals first. I only managed to get into the program because somebody was offered 2 posts at the same time and had to turn down one. In other words, no matter how good you are, you will only get a training post once they have filtered through their own citizens.
I presume your daughter is self sponsored, if not she should come back in accordance to her contract. If she wants to do FY1 in UK then might as well she complete all her specialist training in UK, which is recognised in many countries. You must understand that Malaysian postgraduate training is not recognised elsewhere.
There is no point going back to UK after coming home. Whether you will become a consultant or not depends on her training level in UK.
I think since your daughter is a doctor soon, you should forget about her married life etc for the moment. Medical life is not easy and many doctors who married early usually will end up with problems in their family life. That is the reality. I had housemen who got married just after graduation and either never did her housemen or ended up quiting all together. I think you should let your daughter to decide on when she wants to get married. Many of my classmates of female gender did not even do the speciality that they wanted after they got married. Some even became housewives or ended up doing Radiology, public health and GP.
Dear Dr,
Thank you for this blog. It is very informative; especially so for foreign graduates who have not been exposed to the hospital environment in Malaysia, who had no contact with senior doctors who have been working with the Malaysian system for many years, and those who don’t have an army of doctors in their families to provide the information to make sound career decisions.
1. Is MRCP always done locally for Malaysians? And is that recognized worldwide? Is there a possibility to do this abroad so that there is no scholarship/bond and the need to wait for a place in the government universities in Malaysia.
2. Nav mentioned that my daughter will have to complete the rotations which are required for houseman training in Malaysia, if she hadn’t done so in her F1 training in the UK. If she had done the rotations, does that mean that she will be exempted from repeating them, thus shortening her HO training.
Kind regards,
Saranya Manoharan
1) MRCP can be sat in Malaysia, Singapore or UK. The first 2 parts are theory papers and can be set in Malaysia. For the 3rd part ( Clinical), you can either sit in Malaysia, Singapore or go all the way to UK. The exams are the same no matter where you sit. There is NO bond if you sit for MRCP, it is purely self sponsored! MRCP is not a specialist degree in UK. It is an entrance exam for speciality training in UK. IN Malaysia, after 18 months post MRCP, you can be gazetted as a general internal medicine specialist if your HOD is happy with your performance. After this you can go on to do your subspeciality.
2) HO training in Malaysia is 2 years . Each postings has certain duration. MMC will go through all the postings that you had done in UK and then decide on which postings that you need to do in order to get full registration. IT does not make your HO training any shorter. She will only be exempted from doing the posting that she had done in UK ( depending on the duration as well)
Dear Saranya,
I will reply here since the comment tree structure allows only 2 levels of reply. Others have already given their point of view with regards to the difficulty of pursuing a medical/surgical career and having a family with children. They make very good points which I agree with. Medical/surgical postgraduate training is not conducive to a family setup where both spouses are in full time careers.
Registration with the GMC simply means that a doctor is in good standing with the GMC. The easiest way to understand licensing is to consider whether a doctor who qualified in medicine 50 years ago is still necessarily fit and up do date to practice clinical medicine! From 2012, formal revalidation procedures are going to be instituted such that one’s GMC licence to practice will only be renewed if the practitioner has undergone satifactory revalidation. The details of what exactly revalidation will entail are still being worked out.
The current annual fee for maintaining GMC registration with a licence to practice is £420. the fee for registration without a licence to practice is £145. If your daughter was to return to Malaysia but wants to maintain her GMC registration, I would advise taking registration without a licence. Once formal revalidation procedures for re-licensing are established by the GMC, it is unlikely that she would be able to fulfill all the requirements of revalidation from her work in the Malaysian medical system to be eligible for re-licensing anyway.
You are correct that only the first year of foundation training is required to attain GMC registration. If that is all she wishes, then she can leave after her F1 year.
However, the UK training system has now moved on to be “competency based” where one can only progress to the next level upon attainment of defined competencies. One of the requirements for entry to specialty training is the completion of 2 years of foundation training. Without completing her F2, there is every chance that this may become an issue should she wish to return to the UK for future specialty training.
GMC registration is useful primarily in the UK, Europe and some Commonwealth countries (eg: Australia and New Zealand). Where a country recognises UK GMC registration, there will normally be no requirement to serve an internship year and the doctor may apply to more senior positions
If she leaves the UK for 5-10 years, she will definitely be seen as a “foreign trainee”. Neither having a UK degree nor GMC registration will count for very much then. It is the combination of having a UK degree and being currently trained in the UK postgraduate system which will make her be regarded as a “local trainee”.
Kind regards.
Dear sir
First of all this is a great article and Im grateful that Ive found it. Anyway, I would like to ask how do I apply for housemanship in singapore? currently Im holding a MBBS degree recognized by the singapore government but I don’t know to search nor apply for housemanship in singapore. People told me that i could search through the web but I don’t have any clue how should i get started. Do you have a specific website/civil service body/ that could I drop my resume or email or even a phonecall for enquiry?
Thankyou in advanced.
Tristan.
Hospitals in Singapore are not government hospitals anymore. They are known as Restructured Institutions, only partly owned by the government. The health system is run by 2 companies: Singhealth and NHG. You need to either visit each hospital website or go to singhealth website. However, I was told that HO and MO appointments has been centralised to MOH Holdings Singapore. Please visit their website as well.
Dear Tristan,
U can try googling for MOH holdings website n they should hv info regarding recruitment.
MOH do hold recruitment drives in aus,uk n even Malaysia too!
Hi dr.Pagalavan,
I’ve been following your site for quite some time now. Thank u so much for all the informations and insights for us young doctors. I’m well in my final semester of med school and am thinking of taking medical entrance exams such as USMLE,LMCC,AMC etc (and even considering sitting for PLAB during housemanship later). So I guess this is the right time for me to start preparing myself for the 1st part of the paper that I will choose later on.
And for this, I really need your help dr.Pagalavan..on choosing which entrance exam is the best and which has the highest chance of getting intership placement afterwards. As we know these papers are costly and chooSing the right one is crucial.I really don’t mind working in any of those countries in the future. Just want to do my postgrad degree that is recognized internationally n do it abroad 🙂
Thank u dr.Pagalavan in advance, for your time reading this and for your help.
First of all it is difficult to do these exams while you are doing housemanship but with the current shift system being introduced, the chances are better. If you are planning to defer your housemanship just to sit for these exams, than it is also not a good idea. The last I heard, even internship post in Australia is getting saturated as most foreign students wants to do internship in Australia. I think LMCC is probably a better option. Passing USMLE do not guarantee you a post in US. It is better for you to start your housemanship and do one of these exams along the way.
Dr Pagalavan has a point about the AMC exam; even if you pass the exam, you will still be placed the lowest in priority when it comes to internship positions i.e. every single medical graduate in Australia (Yes, this includes international students in Australia as well) who wishes to undergo internship training will have to be placed first before AMC candidates can even be considered. With the current internship bottleneck in Australia, I would even go as far as saying your chances for an Australian internship in the next few years are close to nil.
USMLE is probably the only exam in which your results (Step scores) actually matter in determining whether your residency match is successful or not. But then again, considering the precarious situation the American economy is currently in, I wouldn’t be surprised to see more health care funding cuts in the States, especially if the Tea Party gets its way…
Thank u for your advice dr.Pagalavan. Regarding my question more than a week ago, I think I’ve done enough research on which entrance exam (joined some online student forums for almost 6 months actually & looked through some of the modules) and with your advice I have some rough ideas (can I say plus intuition?haha) on what I should do next. I know both Canada and the US offer very limited posts for IMGs and I’m aware that it will not guarantee a post but I’ll take my chances on one of those two. And as adviced earlier, yes I will do the exam next year and we’ll see how everything goes during my housemanship. Thank u again dr.Pagalavan! Will keep following your very interesting site 🙂
Might I also add that you’re only allowed to take the USMLE once, say if you barely passed the exam, you’ll still find it really hard to land a residency. Go, look up the annual match statistics (US seniors vs IMG statistics) and at least get an idea of the competition you’re about to face.
hello dr,
I just completed the 2 yr housemanship and now waiting for m.o placement. I plan to complete mrcs part 1, 2 and 3 in malaysia before going to ireland for both specialist training and FRCS. btw I graduated from Ireland and not a scholar so I’m not bonded with the government. since mrcs is not recognised in malaysia, that’s why i plan to complete all postgraduate training in Ireland. my questions are:
1. if i quit government now and do mrcs on my own before going to Ireland, can i complete the 2 yr compulsory service after coming back from Ireland (after completing FRCS). (btw the reason why i plan to quit government now is because i want to concentrate on my side business first before starting on a surgical postgraduate training).
2. I am aware that for part 2 and 3 mrcs, i need to do the training with a hospital. can i do it at a private hospital in malaysia? if not, can i continue back with the government as m.o after quiting for 1-2 years and do the part 2/3 mrcs training there?
3. is FRCS recognised in malaysia? I still want to come back and settle down in Malaysia for good after completing all postgraduate training
please help, thanx
1) As you said, you need to be in training before you sit for MRCS Part B ( they have combined Part 2 and 3 to Part B from this year onwards). Thus, it is not advisable to quit government service.
2) Nope, as far as I know, you can’t do your training in private hospital because there is no such thing as training in private hospital in Malaysia. All consultants are self employed and the private hospital would not allow you to touch any of their patient. So, how are you going to do surgery? Yes, you can rejoin MOH on a contract basis depending on availability of post. You can be posted anywhere in Malaysia depending on availability and looking at the situation of oversupply of doctors soon, likely you will be given a post in rural hospitals/east Malaysia.
3) Yes.
I have a question.
Lets say i.k above, who is currently a 1st year MO, finally got a training position for say 6 years in Ireland. He still wants to continue to serve the Malaysian government after he finished the training, as a general surgeon.
Can he “take an unpaid leave” or “break” from his government service, head to ireland to do his training, and then come back to Malaysia, and continue to serve the government, not just for 1 more year, but for many years to come, but NOT on contract basis?
Unpaid leave not possible as it depends on years of service. Break in service is possible but usually for only 2-3 years BUT it will affect your seniority in service as well as pension. Promotion will be based on actual service in Malaysia. The break will not be considered.
1.according to the new rules,is there no working clinical experience required for mrcp 1?
2.is there any clinical experience required for mrcp 2 ?
3.can i do the mrcp training in singapore after clearing the first 2 parts,if my undergrad degree is not recognized by MOH singapore?
1) MRCP PART 1 can be set after 1 year of housemanship. So you must be inservice for 1 year.
2)You can sit for Part 2 but you can’t sit for Part 3 without clinical experience. You need a supervisor to sign the application form.
3) You need to complete all 3 parts before being accepted in Singapore!
Hi Dr. Pagavalan Letchumanan,
I graduated from a local private medical university in 2006, completed my housemanship training in a local government hospital, passed the MRCP(UK) in 2010 and currently i have just finished my gazettement this month.
My problem is that I’m in a relationship with another doctor who is currently attempting the FANZCA (Anaethesiology) part 1 and if she pass the part 1, she will have work in Australia for about 2 years before she can take the final exam. We are planning to get married next year and if she pass her exam I will have to follow her to Australia and work there as well.
My questions are:
1. Can I apply to work in Australia as a physician/registrar with MRCP and a Malaysian MBBS?
2. Do I have to take the AMC part 1 even though I have MRCP?
3. Can I apply for a subspeciality training post in Australia with MRCP?
I hope others who had such experience can provide me the relevant information..Thank you very much in advance.
Dear HS,
Your partner doesn’t HAVE to work in Aus to get her FANZCA. There are 5 hospitals in Malaysia in which she can do all her training. It is probably desirable to work in Aus/NZ to prepare for her Final Exam, but not compulsory.
Your MRCP(UK) without the CST will not allow you to work as a specialist in Aus. If you apply, the Aus Medical Board may allow you to work as a Registrar without sitting the AMC exams, although this is on a case by case basis. If their decision is unfavourable, you will have to sit the AMC exam and work as a house officer for one year. If you wish to stay in Aus as a specialist, you will have to sit the FRACP exam and do advanced training there. It is a more difficult exam (some might say more unfair as well) than the MRCP and most from the UK think they can pass it easily because they have the MRCP, but end up failing at least once.
I advise you to contact the AMC or Aus Medical Board (I don’t know whose jurisdiction this comes under nowadays) directly, and apply. Also contact the RACP and they may have some advice for you. You may have to give yourself as much as 12 months for this process. You will also need a valid IELTS. Good luck.
1) MRCP is not recognised in Australia. However you can apply as a foreign trained specialist via the respective colleges. BUT, since you just passed MRCP in 2010, you may not be considered as a specialist.
2) pls contact the respective colleges for further info. Sometimes , they may accept you as a MO/Registra but wil need to complete the FRACP exams in time
3) NO
Dear Dr, I am a gazetted ENT specialist – undergraduate from India and postgrad from UKM. I am interested in trying it out in either Singapore or Australia in the near future. I am really grateful to come across your blog and I really thank you for that. my question to you is whether it is advisable to take the MRCS ENT from UK or the AMC in australia? from your previous blogs, I reckon that MRCS is easier to attain as compared to the AMC exams…please advice. Thank you
MRCS if Singapore. AMC for Australia. Master’s is not recognised elsewhere. At the most, you will get a registra post.
Dear LCN,
I have a friend who was in a pretty similar situation as you. Indian undergrad and UM postgrad in ENT. He managed to get a fellowship post in NZ, during which he sat the FRACS ENT final exam, and is now working as a specialist in Aus. According to him, the RACS partially recognised his Malaysian Masters (this is on a case-by-case basis), which meant he did not have to sit an exam to work in Aus/NZ. However, he needed a supervisor for his fellowship and it has to be a general fellowship. You should contact the RACS directly for more info.
If you sit the AMC exam, it means you are starting from scratch. You will have to do 1 year as a HO, and then work your way as a registrar to be eligible to sit the FRACS ENT exam. The MRCS ENT exam has no standing in Aus without the CST, as far as I understand (but you can ask the RACS about this).
I don’t know about the situation in Singapore.
Thank you for the prompt reply Dr. Is the fact of taking AMC more difficult than the MRCS. From what I see, the MRCS is more expensive, on the other hand, AMC looks almost not possible with all the red tapes in Australia. please advice, thank you
Your Master’s and even MRCS is not recognised in Australia. However, you can try applying through the respective colleges under foreign trained specilaist. They may accept you as a MO/registra and ask you to sit for their ENT exams before allowing you to work as a specialist. As for Singapore, MRCS may be sufficient to get a registra post.
Dear Nav, thanks for filling me in. I think I do know who u r talking about. In fact I spoke to his supervisor recently. I am in fact trying to get the FRACS ENT that way. However, I have problem trying to contact him to find out more about this.thanks
Dr,
Thank you for your information. Perdana university is a new medical college which in collaboration with John Hopkins medical college in US. They will be using the same syllbus as US and some visiting professors from John Hopkins. Please note that the MD degree certs will not mention anything about John Hopkins and is not reconised by US though the syllbus is following US style training.The tuition fees is 1 million and JPA offer a scholarship which 10 years bond.
The 2 years residency will be done in Malaysia or MAYBE in US.
I am thinking to practice residency in US and further my master, phd in overseas as well. But after my studies, I am willing to come back to serve my nation as a full time clinician and part time researcher. Yet I really don’t know what JPA will do to me before I step out.
Kindly share your thoughts on this.
I think you should read what I wrote about Perdana University in my recent blog postings.First of all, a fee of RM 1 million for a degree that is not recognised elsewhere is total bullshit! What should we pay that amount of money for a local degree. There is NO such thing as 2 year residency in US. All medical graduates in US have to sit for USMLE before getting a post for internship. Thus, unless you pass the USMLE there is no way you can practise in US. It does not matter which curicullum they use. Even MOnash Malaysia’s degree is not recognised in Singapore despite the same curicullum and training style.
Since you are bonded, you will not be able to leave the government service. If you do, you or your guarantor will have to pay back the RM1 million.
The university website is :
http://www.perdanauniversity.edu.my/pugsom/about/collaboration-with-johns-hopki/
Thanking in anticipation.
As far as I am concerned, Perdana University is a BIG joke. It is a money making business and the government is supporting it through the backdoor by giving JPA scholarship to all students accepted into the university. Please read my postings about Perdanas under Education page.
Yes I read that and for certain informations I will call the department for confirmation.
I went to the JPA interview today, it was not easy and the skem is quite complete; they look into the different aspects of a student.
But I really concern is the residency part and the accredition. They claim to match us with US hospitals yet the prospect is uncertain. Without accrediation, I don’t know where can accept my post grad studies.
I already spent my 3 years in university and I really wish that I will not make a wrong choice agian. If I were to go into medical field, I hope to go into research.
Right now I have another offer by o&g medic fac in PPUM, to further my sutdies in a very interesting subject. Yet, a doctor can be a researcher but a researcher cant be a doctor. Kindly advise me.
Please do not trust all these claims!! everyone will claim everything like what Melaka Manipal claim that they are giving the same degree as Manipal Uni in India but do you know that Melaka Manipal degree is not even recognised in India?
It depends on what type of research you want to do : basic research or clinical research. For basic science research, you don’t need a medical degree as you are not going to do lab work once you become a doctor. Medical schools also DO NOT teach you this! For clinical research , yes but you are just carrying out clinical research on drugs already developed by pharma company or doing clinical outcome research on patients. So, if you are really into research then forget about spending 4 years in medical school! A basic medical science degree and PhD will do.
Thank you for your response. But I feel like being a doctor can serve for human mankind more than staying in a lab. I like to help peoples, care about them…..
Yet the future seems so bleak with this so-called world class medical teaching instituition…
It is my last chance to go into this career.
Do you think I stand stand a chance to do US residency and further studies at UK/US, then come back and serve?
Nope. As I said, you need to sit and pass the USMLE exam before even applying for a post in US. Passing USMLE also DO NOT guarantee a post. So, you have to do everything in Malaysia. And being bonded is another issue. For UK, you need to pass the PLAB exam with no guarantee again that you will get a post.
Pls do not think what you want to do after MBBS at this point of time. Things will change along the way. Only decide after you complete your housemanship.
How to know that I am ready for this? How to know I am doing the right choice? What if I really selected for the scholarship.
I get more determined after my degree yet with you facts and assumptions, I feel lost again.
You must ask yourself why you want to do medicine, for passion? money? want to be a scientist ? glamour? job security? etc. I know of a very well known Professor of medicine who is internationally known. He and his wife were in a local university (now retired) and spend their entire life doing research, teaching and doing clinical work. They had 3 sons and NONE of them ever wanted to become a doctor!! why? because they hardly spent any time with their parents( they spend their life with their maid) so much so they do not want to do the same thing to their kids!! So, if you are really interested in doing research and at the same time do clinical work, then you must forget about family life! In western countries, a researcher hardly does any clinical work and vice versa.
That’s the reason I said that if you want to become a reseacrh scientist, you should not waste your time doing medicine. It is best for you go on to do basic science Masters and then PhD. Medical schools only teach you to become a clinical doctor to treat patients. Of course you can still go on to do PhD but it is going to be purely lab research work. That’s the reason many clinicians do not do PhD because by the time you finish your PhD, you would have forgotten your medicine!
But that is not true. I did encounter a full time clinician, part time researcher in national university malaya. She did her MD degree, master and phd in overseas and she has 2 children now. So inspiring to see her balance her career and family after experience so much in overseas.
I would say is passion. I like to digest the occurence of the disease, our body mechanism, drug interaction, and at the same time communicate and care for people. I feel that I only have short 40-60 years life span and I go for this mission, fulfill my life in this world. I work for few months and I strongly feel that I am wasting my time on those unethical industry.
That is what I feel. Few years back I dint go for it due the scary career pathway and self-doubting.
About the scientist career, maybe I should consider after housemanship. If I directly go for master and phd, I might end up facing virus for the rest of my life but not the people. I think the connection with people and serving the people is the main motivation for me to go on any career.
As I said, having children is one thing but the amount of time spent with them is another. You will know what I am talking about once you get into it.
http://pagalavan.com
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Why not apply directly to Johns Hopkins University, one of the best if not the best medical school in the United States? If you’re good enough to be accepted, then JPA would be crazy not to sponsor your studies there. It’s actually cheaper to study at JHU itself than in Perdana – how that is even possible I have absolutely no idea. Now, if you graduate in the US, you’ll be considered a US Senior, NOT an International Medical Graduate (IMG) as you would if you graduate from Perdana. This makes getting a residency in the US so much easier – look up the statistics if you don’t believe me. But the truth is what worked for the previous generation will NOT apply to you, simply because the market is slowly saturating with doctors, even in Western countries. The clinician you know didn’t have to face this kind of competition. now did she? And hey if you manage to get into Perdana, you could perhaps snoop around to find out about the class GPA and MCAT average. I for one would really like to know the numbers (which I doubt Perdana will ever disclose even though the tax-payers are funding this)
This is the nature of the scourge of the 24 hour day – this rule applies to everyone, no exceptions. With that in mind, you can only do so much in the time available to you.
I am an old friend of a Professor at University Hospital who is exactly as you describe – trained overseas with MBBS, subspecialist qualifications and PhD as well. Top clinician, excellent academic in her part non-clinical time, mother of two lovely children… we might even be referring to the same person!
I admire her greatly and she is indeed inspiring, but I think that she is the exception that proves the rule!
This is scary, we might talking about the same person!
She has a perfect perfect perfect life.
I never know I was so wrong before I met her. Things will be different if I met this kind of person few years back…
Going to John Hopkins itself need interview and no phone interview is allowed. I wonder when JPA will stop sponsor the stupid one.
I don’t think they can be consider an International Medical Graduate (IMG) after Perdana. The uni is not listed under WHO.
Only first class degree honor is accepted. Anyway, getting 1st honor degree in Malaysia is ABSOLUTELY EASY.
For first year, MCAT score is not taken into account. yet they are required to take the test, before they enroll.
Anyway tax-payers are paying around 30 millions to this university, first year, around 25-30 students.
🙂
dear yuan xin,
Being a medical doctor and a researcher is two different pathways. You have to be clear on what you want and what will be your passion and income for your future. My husband is doing residency in peds in US, currently in second year. And i graduated with biotechnology in Monash Malaysia. I can give you an insight in career in both fields. First, MD. In order to advance yourself to a higher level (specialization), you need to plan ahead what med school will you be attending and make sure the degree you earn is recognized at the country you want to get your specialization. Common places to specialize is UK, SIngapore, Aus, and US. In UK, the chances are rather slim due to government regulations agaisnt non EU graduates. Singapore and Aus, you still have some chances proviced you take and excel all their entrance exam. In US, to quality for residency, you have to take the USMLE exam (consist of step 1, step 2 CK, Step 2 CS and Step 3). Once you completed step 1 and step 2CK with flying colors, you can apply for residency. But, if your grad school is non-US based, you will be considered as an IMG (international medical graduate), where you will compete with the rest of the world (doctors from iran, india, uk, aus etc etc) and the matching percentage is around 38% suceess rate. Another way to gain an upperhand in US residency matching is to be a canadian graduate (grduate from canada medical school) As a canadian grad, you will be classified under US-IMG where the competition is less fierce and the matching rte is around 70%. Note that USMLE is self sponsored and the exams plus the residency application fees plus the interview costs are all covered by you (budget around 30k for this). And no guarantee that you will get to match a spot. For medical doctors, they can still carry out research. This will only happen at a higher level (after your residency, you can apply for fellowship which allows you to subspecialize). After 3-4 yrs residency and 3-4 years of fellowship, then you will be an attending. As an attending, you can carry out clinical research. This pathway is long and arduous (5 yr med school + 1-2 yrs of exam and application + 3-4 yrs residency + 3-4 yrs fellowship) during which your pay as a resident and fellow is meagre and just sufficient for a moderate lifestyle. NO BMWs, NO BIG HOUSE!
Second choice. Lab research. You can graduate in biotech, biomed or any science research degree and they are all the same (in corporate world at least). Basic deg (3 yrs) + Masters (2-3 yrs) + Phd (3-4 yrs).
For basic deg and masters, your career options are similar. Either research in universities, sales for pharma drugs and equipment, become a lecturer or a med lab tech. As a researcher in universities, your salary is grant based and will be around Rm1200-1500. You will be hired under a contract based on how long the grant is suppose to lalast (usually 1-2 yrs) and you will be the one running the entire project from ordering of lab supplies to cleaning labware to running the experiment to writing the paper for publication. And because you are contract based, you are considered part timer with no benefits, no bonus, no increment and no promotion. Sales for pharma drugs and equipment. You will join companies like merck, gsk, invitrogen, eppendorf and be their sales person. Monthly salary can reach 4000 IF you meet your sales target. Lecturer in colleges and pre-u courses earn around 2200-2800. Lastly, med lab tech like those in hospitals or lab companies. You will be in charged of taking blood from patients, running their blood or urine or fecal samples, printing out reports, analyzing and explaining to your customer. All for around 1500 starting salary and also in charge of telemarketing and data-entry. Lastly, the glorified PhD holder! So, after your Phd, the usual carrier path is to become a university lecturer. If you are lucky, your university will allow you to do research. (after all universities hire you for teaching and not to spend money on research). As a lecturer, (in monash at least), you will be hired on contract basis (3-5 yrs) and you must carry out research and PUBLISH papers in order to continue your contract. Publication is very very important in research world and it is NOT easy to publish in an international journal. As a lecturer, you will be bogged down by plenty of classes and teaching obligations and usually your research is done by your honours or masters or phd students and NOT BY YOU!! You will be the one guiding them but you will not be doing the hands on.
Also, don’t be fooled by research in general. The process is not easy as it seems on tv and movies. You can be stuck in one process eg bacterial cloning for 3-4 months without any results and it is very frustrating. Or you could culture some super important cancer strain and the next thing you know, it could be contaminated by fungus and you will have to redo the whole thing. IT IS NOT EASY. Working hours can extend to 9-10 pm and sometimes on weekends just because bacterial cells need 16 hours of cell growth and if you want to start harvesting them on monday, you need to go back to the lab to culture them on sunday for overnight culture.
Looking into Perdana university’s website link as provided by yuan xin. I read it and almost died laughing. Perdana university’s claims are just magic smoke and mirrors! i looked into their website and it was horrible! Spelling mistakes everywhere. Selangor spelled as salangor, hospital spelled as hospitak. I always believe that the university’s website gives a clue to how they would run the school. If i can point out such mistakes and their IT crew does not bother to rectify them, it reflects the quality within. Beware!
Thank you Elly for such an informative comments. The US system sounds less ‘hassle’ than Msia systems where you need to queue for master and subspecialize programs. However I doubt Perdana graduates could even take the examination at the first place as Perdana is too new to be recognized under WHO. To take the licensing examination, the institution should be recognized by WHO. My other concern is JPA would let the graduates to practice residency in US since in recent years those who studied medical in overseas are forced to come back immediately for their residency program in Msia. It will be very contradict. Singapore is a good place for specialize, but during the JPA interview, the insecure interviewers kept asking: Will you go Singapore? lol. From the questions they asked in interview: ‘Are you willing to go remote area? If too saturated with specialist, could you remain as MO?’ I have no idea in what form the scholars will be kept here by JPA after graduation.
For research in university, I was lucky enough to get around 2k as starting pay. A good chance to further studies. So at the end, as a biotech grad, what you choose? But I have to agree that fastest way to earn good income and have all the house or car or whatever, is being a medical rep. I got an offer by the company that you mentioned but too ‘bad’ I think that I am not ‘destined’ for this luxury route 🙂
Research is never easy even though how hard you work 😦 As you said I did bacteria cloning, 3-5 months no result at all, and it was only at PCR stage! But I still had to keep it going, and it turned out fine for my final year project. I understand it will be very very tough for master/phd project and I strongly feel that having lab fingers is important (which I still need to improve on it)
Perdana University has a group of dedicated people in serving the students and making things work. Of course the fame and recognition can only be seen after some years, hope it will be as good as DUKE-NUS.
As far as Duke-NUS is concerned, I doubt Perdana will ever be able to match them simply because Perdana is a private initiative (regardless of the fact that JPA is keeping it afloat) as opposed to NUS, which is a well-established and reputable PUBLIC university. You have to ask yourself: why can’t it be UM-Johns Hopkins or UKM-JHU? If this is not a money-making exercise, then can someone please clarify the justification for having another medical school in Malaysia?
Also tell me, who exactly is this group of dedicated people? Last I checked, there appears to be an exodus of talent from 1Malaysia – who are they trying to kid here? Ironically, this institution will eventually also contribute to the American people, that is if everything goes according to plan. A modern-day practice in imperialism, don’t you agree?
dear Yuan Xin,
just would like to give some opinion and suggestions. i’m glad to hear that u want to proceed to study medicine. but the perdana is very new, their quality still unknown, and the tuition fee is so expensive. i don’t think it is worth to go for that school (although they r the only one currently providing the 4 years graduate medical program). if u successfully secure a JPA scholarship, u will be bonded may be for 9 – 10 years. if u wish to break the contract, then u need to pay them abck a huge amount of money. but if u wish to work in oversea, then u cannot wait until u completed ur bond, by that time the western countries may change their policy and do not want any “foreigner” doctors any more. i myself hold a MSc in chemical pathology before i entered medical school at the age of 27. i couldn’t get any JPA sponsorship or loan for my medical program because they told me their policy was no sponsorship for degree holder to do medicine. so i’m very doubtful if JPA has changed their policy now and starts to sponsor graduate students to do medicine????? please read the contract carefully before u sign it. but for the safe side, i still think it is better to enter a well-established private medical school with a lower fee compared to perdana. just think in this way 300k in well-established school vs 1 million in unknown quality school..
regarding research, it is very hard for a clinician to do clinical work and the laboratory works at the same time in this country, due to lack of lab facilities and equipment, as well as limitation in grant allocation. they have money to send somebody to “tumpang” other peoples kapal angkasa and called him an angkasawan, but they don’t have money to upgrade our research lab.. :p i’m interested in research as well, but more to clinical-based (not drug-based).. there r many clinical based research can be carried out in the hospitals for the benefit of patients.. don’t give up ur dream. make the right decision for the life u would like to have in future. i have a friend who hold a biomedic degree, worked as drug rep for 3 years selling vigra, and now is a houseman in perak. i myself worked as a dish washer before in a fast food restaurant for pocket money, and now i’m busy washing the brain in the hospital.. nothing is impossible.. take the responsibility and work with passion, and don’t end up as a doctor potato.. good luck to u.. best wishes.. 🙂
JPA came up with this new special scholarship for Perdana to keep Perdana floating ! If not they will kaput!
there is just only a school of medicine inside the perdana.. only one medical program is offered (no pharmacy, no nursing).. but how come it can easily get the status of “university” so fast..?? i thought an instituition must have combination of different schools (engineering, arts, bussiness etc) before it can be granted the status of “university”..?? last time the IMU also started as a college and after many many years only it got the “university” status.. even the sedaya college only able to get a “university college” status after so many years.. but how come perdana…..????? emm, may be ada udang di sebalik batu.. not one udang, but few udangs i think… :p
Dear Dr.Simon,
Sorry for miss out your comments! Thank you thank you so much! I like the part you’r washing brain in hospital, are you a forensic pathologist?
My first concern is money. Though the quality in the school is really unknown, yet JPA pay for it. I don’t have 300k for another quality private school and it seems that this is the last chance to study medicine w/o paying a huge sum of money.
My second concern is choosing between a research career or medical career. I am lucky enough to choose between them yet I don’t know how to make up my mind. A medical career in Msia might not be assisting me to further my studies in overseas while research career, the opportunity is unknown and depends on the talent and hardwork.
Dr. Simon, as an ex-research student and medic student, how do you see both career? I am thinking going for research (cancer) for some time before go into medical career since I already have a good offer in a good university. Or I should directly to go medical? All I want definitely is not money, is only the satisfaction and the contribution which align with my passion and talent (if I am really blessed with talent). I foresee I will be struggling in research career due to lack of lab fingers, but I still can work hard on it.
About US residency training and other stuff, besides feeling weird and have some prejudgment on the school, I am fine with doing horsemanship in rural area.
dear Yuan Xin,
i m doing neurosurgery.. if the jpa scholarship is confirmed, and u hav no other better options, at the same time u r so keen to do medicine, then u may hav to just proceed with perdana.. but i still suggest u to go to the perdana campus to find out their facilities and read the jpa contract crefully before u sign it.. is their private teaching hospital ready? if not, where are the students going to have their clinical teaching? who are the lecturers? hav they hired any lecturers yet? they cannot just depend on the US lecturers.. who is going to teach if these US lecturers cannot come to perdana? also, once u signed the contract, u will be bonded for 8-10 years.. is it ur dream to go for oversea postgraduate training? is this “bond” going to affect ur dreams? these r the things that u need to consider in depth.. 🙂
if ur ambition all these years is to become a doctor, then just go for it straight.. personally i don’t think going for research career first and then come back again to study medicine is a good idea.. our brain cells are degenerating and dying every day.. :p remember: older age = poor memory = learning difficulty = poor performance.. also, u will have more family commitment and social responsibility with time, all these factors may affect ur study as well.. u will become a houseman at an older age as well.. just imagine if there is a childish MO (younger than u) giving u all the nonsense instructions all the day.. furthermore, u may have difficulty to get into the postgraduate training (especially the local master program which selection of candidates is based on the seniority).. i’m not sure about the external exams (eg. mrcp, mrcog etc..) in future.. may be one day in future these external exams qualification are no longer recognised in this country (may be the local universities want to standardize the local postgraduate training and do not recognise these UK training any more).. any thing can change in future..
u still can carry on with ur research after u become a doctor later.. i meant the clinical-based research, not the laboratory-based research.. u may also work together with other scientists, giving ur clinical opinion so they can design an approriate laboratory-based study which is more relevant to ur clinical needs..
wish u all the best.. 🙂
I had a short tour in the school and it looks good. Anyway I don’t know what kind of facilities should exist in a medical school. They have anatomy room, computer room, etc. Thanks you for the reminder, I will read the jpa contract carefully. Their private teaching hospital SHOULD BE ready by 2014. Most of the professors are visiting professors. I might better keep my expectation not-too high towards all the their plans….
Thank you for your words. Finally found someone kinda ‘agree & support’, 1st one in this forum and a few one in my life. 🙂 Appreciate it..
the basic facilities include: clinical skill labs with manikin for the students to learn how to insert branula, put in nasogatric tube, urinary catheterization, gynaecological examination, basic cardiopulmonary resuscitation, basic dressing skills, tracheal intubation techniques etc.. these r all very important otherwise the fresh graduated doctors will traumatize the patients due to poor skills and improper techniques.. they also should have well-equipped library with internet access and online journal subscription.. pathology lab with real organ specimen if possible, microscopes for basic histology study.. etc.. etc..
i think it is a little bit late if they start taking students this year but the hospital itself only ready by 2014.. this does not match their proposed education philosophy – the US style of medical education.. furthermore, the private hospital patients usually will request “specialist” to attend them (so will the students get enough clinical exposure if these private patients don’t allow the students to touch them?)..
hav u contacted other private schools? some schools will help u to get PTPTN loan.. u may try SEGi or RCMP.. (quite helpful and not so money-orientated)..
hope these little info help.. 🙂
Even if the hospital is ready by 2014, I can assure you there will be no patients for the students to see. Any private hospital will take atleast 5-6 years to have full occupancy. It will take atleast 2-3 years even for the insurance companies to put you as a panel hospital. AND as you said, private patients go to private hospital for specialist care and privacy. I am very sure they would not allow students to see or disturb them. The guys who are running this school probably got no clue of what the Malaysian Healthcare system is all about. We are totally different from the US system where all hospitals are private hospitals!! Monash wanted to build their own hospital in Sunway but aborted the paln last year. Despite having Sunway medical centre nearby, Sunway did not allow it to be used as a teaching hospital! I can assure you now itself that Perdana Hospital will be a failure and most likely the government will buy over the hospital later on! See what is happening to Prince Court hospital , funded by Petronas, there is an interview with it’s CEO in today Star.
Please do not take huge loan from PTPTN or anywhere else to do medicine. You may not feel it if you are a single person but when you get married , the debt will be huge with car and house loan coming your way.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
i m M.waleed khan and i m doing my MD from afghanistan and i belongs to pakistan i m very disturb about my further study because i have no guaidline and i want to do my specilization from malaysia what would be the procedure please would u like to guid me plzz
First of all your MBBS degree must be recognised in Malaysia. Then you can try applying to our university Master’s programme under UNiversty Kebangsaan Malaysia, University Malaya or University Science Malaysia. They do offer some slots for foreign students but your country must also recognise these degrees, if not there is no point doing it. Please visit their websites.
See, this is exactly what I am talking about. An article from the guardian sums up the situation nicely – bottom feeders will always be bottom feeders:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/apr/04/america-steals-doctors-from-developing-countries
“In most countries, especially in the developing world, doctors are trained at public expense. If a doctor from Ghana is recruited to the US, not only does Ghana lose its doctor, it loses the money paid for the training. It may be that the doctor is likely to send a portion of earnings back home (known in the development business as “remittances”). But this is scant compensation. In sum, the US is receiving a massive subsidy from the developing world in training its medical staff.”
Here it says Ghana, but nobody can deny that this applies to Malaysia as well. So you good tax-paying citizens are actually supporting the greatest country on Earth – for that the American people thank you.
“In 2002, there were 47 Liberian-trained doctors working in the US, and just 72 working in Liberia. And even when a doctor is recruited from Canada, Canada then looks to South Africa, and South Africa to wherever it can. The poorest will always lose out.”
See, same thing applies to the scenario here. America looks to Malaysia, Malaysia to Afghanistan (or for this matter Bangladesh etc) and…not really sure where Afghanistan plans to look for doctors.
yuan xin,
Not to say i am pessimistic, but an interview from JPA does not guarantee you anything. In fact, i went for one of those interviews a couple years ago and they asked me the same questions. This is just a way for them to make sure that they are NOT forcing you to go to rural areas to serve, NOT forcing you to take lousy med deg etc. For example, they ask, are you willing to go russia or indonesia if we grant you a JPA spot there? You answer yes. Then, they can justify that you agreed to it. My friend was offered a spot in indonesia, she declined it. I did not get past the first round of interview.
JPA would still force their students to come home and serve. That’s what i think. So, don’t bank your hopes for them to let you loose for residency and fellowship (a 6-10 yr process). And most fellows would decide to stay on in US because the medical system here is more advanced and the pay scale is much higher. Whether Perdana Uni students are eligible for USMLE i don’t know. Then again, if they are JPA scholars, the gov would not let them apply for residency, so no point taking USMLE.
Since you had some experience in the lab, you should know which one you are leaning towards. Medicine is a long and slow rewarding career.
I totally agree with what you said. I was too innocent to see that. Thank you 🙂
Besides, I think Research is also another slow, sometimes not-so-rewarding career 🙂 At the end of the day, it really depends on what you want in life 🙂
doctor but let suppose my degree is not register or recognise in malaysia but it is registerd with our own government then what will b the procedure what should i do to make way for my further education plzz would u like to suggest me some thing for my batter future plzz
If your degree is not recognised here, you can’t work in Malaysia to do post grad.
Hi Doctor;
I will soon be graduating from a Russian Medical Univerysity which is recongnise by the Malaysian gov, I have heard some people going back to Malaysian to do their HO for 2 years and after that leaving to go to the UK for specialisation striaght after that. So i was wandering if you know anything about this? and if i were to do the same thing,what are the things I will need to do? Thank you for your help!
In order to work in UK, you need to sit and pass the PLAB exam. It also does not guarantee a post in UK where preference is given to their citizen and EU citizens.
Hello Dr.
Do you think doing housemanship at UMMC is good? or at non university hospitals are better such as hosp. Serdang, Hosp. Klang?
What are the pros and cons doing HO in university hospitals? your recommendation please.. i am graduating soon.
I would prefer MOH hospitals. University hospitals have too many people above you like MO, Master’s students, Lecturers , AP and Prof. Their patient numbers are also limited and very subspecialised. They mainly take only referred cases.
hi
i am a surgeon
did my mbbs ie graduation, dnb ie diplomate of national board in surgery in india. i have cleared my mrcs also. now i am doing dnb in surgical oncology as superspecialization. can i work in singapore iwht this of my qualifications. do need to have any licensing exam there
please guide me
also how much approx will be pay for my calibre in singapore.
Dear Hitendra,
Only the following Indian undergraduate degrees are recognised by Singapore:
AIIMS
CMC, Vellore
Armed Forces Medical College, Maharashtra
JIPMER, Pondicherry
Lady Hardinge, New Dehli
Grant, Mumbai
St John’s, Bangalore
Madras Medical College, Chennai
With regards to your postgrad qualification, they do not recognise Indian ones. The MRCS is useless without the CST, though it might allow you to work as a registrar.
Your last resort will be to apply to the Specialists Accreditation Board. They may consider your application if the following conditions are met:
1. Regarded by their peers to be internationally renowned in that particular specialty.
2. At least 3-5 years of specialists experience in public hospitals of adequate size and standing.
3. Proof of proficiency of English
4. Where appropriate, may be subjected to assessments by the Specialists Accreditation Board, Singapore.
5. Other doctors on a case-by-case basis, depending on experience and standing
I do not know what your ‘calibre’ is, but surgeons in the public service in Singapore earn approximately S$20,000/month.
PLease contact Singapore Medical Council for further info. MRCS may allow you to get a registra post in Singapore. BUT you may not get a surgeon post.
dr simon,
oh my! Your observations are correct! I did not even notice that Perdana Uni is a university status without any other arts, science or engineering programs. In fact, all universities (as far as i know) start out as colleges until they can fulfill the criteria of becoming a university. EXCEPT ONE! And it was so quickly set up that even without proper facilities, it can collaborate with JHU. Looking at their webpage, you will notice many spelling error and lousy setup. You cannot view their proposed curriculum cause the fonts are so blurry and small, you cannot zoom in also. No faculty information, nothing important except proposed tuition fee of 250,000 per year. Almost like a Ponzi scheme..
hehe.. agreed with u.. even there is no info about d HOD of each department as well..
one word: SCAM! First, your degree is awarded by Perdana University not JHU. Second, sky-high fees for building private hospital and for flying adjunct professors in and out of the country to teach a few classes (if you notice their faculty are made up of almost all adjunct prof). Third, private hospitals are costly and why would patients pay so much to be poke and tested by medical students (they could have got the same treatment at gov hospitals). Forth, there is no guarantee that Perdana Uni students can sit for USMLE because the medical school need to be recognized by ECFMG. Fifth, you will be considered an IMG (international medical graduate) and not US grad, hence your matching success rate would be less than 50%. Sixth, they did not mention you have to pay your way through USMLE tests and application for programs and interview (around 30k-50k usd in total). And finally, taking or passing USMLE tests does not guarantee a match in residency. If you have 1 million to spare, my suggestion is to take up a twinning med program such as IMU-Jefferson or IMU-Canada med program. Then, take USMLE after you graduate. That way, you will be considered US grad or US-IMG and the matching success rate is much much higher.
Hi, i am informed that IMU is listed as one of the directory medical schools by WHO. What are the benefits of being listed? Thanks.
Nothing other than allowing you to be able to sit for the entrance exams of other countries like USMLE, PLAB, AMC etc.
hi, i ‘m a 2nd year student and i’m interested to find out about my MO years. what happens after i finish my MRCS part 1& 2?? am i allowed to work in singapore and to then finish my part 3? then am i a specialist in singapore?? i’m studying in UNPAD, Bandung Indonesia.
MRCS has only 2 parts now, effective 2011. You can sit for both in Malaysia BUT it is not recognised as a specialist degree, just an entrance to specialist training. Having MRCS only allows you to work as a registra in Singapore and then go on to be trained as a surgeon.
and when is the recommended years to sit my part 1 and 2 and 3?? can i take my part 1 in my 5th year, and part 2 in the HO years?? and finally take the part 3 in singapore after completion of HO?? then am i allowed to work there?? and continue to FRCS?? Is FRCS shorter or the local master a shorter programme?? am i allowed to work in singapore if i already have MRCS?? will it supersede my m.d. from indonesia??
Good to have a plan but don’t lose focus of being an good all-round doctor in medical school. I always find it interesting that many aspiring doctors want to become surgeons before even experiencing a surgical rotation in medical school.
“when is the recommended years to sit my part 1 and 2 and 3??”
When you are ready.
“can i take my part 1 in my 5th year, and part 2 in the HO years??”
No. To be allowed to take the exam, you must have a medical degree (and your med school must be in the Avicenna directory)
“and finally take the part 3 in singapore after completion of HO??”
No. You must have the MRCS (i.e. all the parts – only 2 in the new system) before Singapore will even consider you.
” then am i allowed to work there??”
Yes, after you have the MRCS. Being allowed to work there and actually getting a job are 2 very different things though.
“and continue to FRCS??”
“Is FRCS shorter or the local master a shorter programme??”
In the UK, it will take another 6 years after the MRCS to finish your surgical training. In Malaysia and Singapore, it can take 4-6 years depending on the surgical subspecialty and their requirements.
“am i allowed to work in singapore if i already have MRCS??”
See above
“will it supersede my m.d. from indonesia??”
It’s a different qualification altogether. One is undergraduate one is postgraduate (although technically speaking an MD is a postgraduate degree, but places like UKM and obviously some Indonesian unis tumpang glamour from the USA by using MD for their undergraduate degrees).
I did not answer one of your questions:
“and continue to FRCS??”
Once you are in Singapore (if you can get a job there), you will be expected to do their Masters programme if you get on to training. I do not how how difficult it is to get the FRCS on its own there.
Dear Sir,
I would like to enquire about ATLS training course in Malaysia.
Where do they offer these courses? Will an overseas doctor be eligible to apply? (I’m an Airlangga University Graduate, Indonesia).
Thank you.
Google “ATLS Malaysia”
hello doctor
how i can do apply for my post graduation
Who are you? Med student or junior doctor?
Where did you graduate from?
Where are you working?
Which postgraduate course do you want to do?
What specialty are you interested in?
I did, but cannot find enough information to go with. Can you please provide me with a website for me to go through? Thank you!
I did google “atls malaysia” and “advanced trauma life support malaysia”, but cannot find enough information to go with. Can you please provide me with a website for me to go through? Thank you!
Are you serious?
When you search “atls malaysia” on google, the first hit is an article saying that you can now do ATLS in Malaysia: http://www.facs.org/fellows_info/bulletin/2010/brasel0510.pdf
If you read through that article, it says that the Malaysia College of Surgeons organises the course in Malaysia. Now, a rational inquiring mind would then search “malaysian college surgeons”. If you did that, the first hit you get would be this page: http://www.acadmed.org.my/index.cfm?&menuid=46
That is the MCS webpage which has details on where/when the course is held and registration info.
Thank you for the info. It seemed my computer has something wrong and unable to open the first web you mentioned. (It only opens but a most part of the article was missing). Thank you for your help!
Hello Dr.Pagalavan
First of all thanks a lot for your all information you providing for others and spending your valuable time for others.
Im Dr.Ameer, MBBS graduate from Govt.Medical College in Calicut,Kerala State in India.Right now Im working as Medcial Officer ( UD 43) in Kota KInabalu. I would like to know how ( what basis) MOH giving grades of the doctots working public sector? Can I possible open private klinic or pharmacy in malaysia?If foreign nation cant possible, is this possible to open local guy sponsoring..
For Malaysian civil servants , from 2010 onwards the grades depends on number of years of service. For contract doctors, it depends on MOH and HOD recommendation. IF you are a foreigner (non-PR), your work permit only allows you to work in one particular location and thus you are not allowed to open or run any private clinic under the immigration law! Even if it is sponsored by a local guy.
Hello Dr Pagalavan
I have a question. Is is compulsory to finish 2 years government service with MOH before going for postgraduation or can I complete my residency and board certfication in USA immediately after 2 years of housemanship and return back to Malaysia to serve government after that?
Thank you
IF you are not bonded, you can complete everything in US as US board certification is recognised in Malaysia for certain field. If you have stayed and worked in US for more than 10 years then you do not need to do the compulsory service but anything less than that, you need to complete the balance of your compulsory service.
You do not even need to finish 2 years of housemanship, and can go immediately after medical school. When you return, it will be 2 years of compulsory service (if less than 10 years). No houseman years.
respected sir,
i really in a confusion sir….
sir i hv read all dis posts,i feel u can xplaine me in a better way…
sir i hv done MBBS at present joined for MRCOG ( 4 yrs supervised pg ) in bangalore…my nly query is , is it compulsory to do all dis 4 years rsfrom d same hospital? sir i m appearing for part 1 …. n i wanna do d next 3 yrs of pg work at my placed hospital…..is dat possible ? whom should i concern for dis matter? n if i do 3 yrs frm other hospital will RCOG concider dat certificate?
plz reply me wid n explaination
thnk u
priscilla
Pls check with the royal college. If I am not mistaken, it is possible.
Hi,
Im a 4th year medical student who studying in Indonesia.
if i planning to do a MRCP / MRCPCH, can i do both in Malaysia?
when i’m eligible to apply for the examination? during HO or MO?
Thanks for the advice about over-flooding of doctor in Malaysia.
So if possible i try obtain the MRCP/ MRCPCH as fast as possible to buck up my medical degree from Indonesia.
Thanks
William
Both can be done in Malaysia. You can sit for Part 1 after 1 year of housemanship.
You do realise that the MRCP has a pass rate that is hovering around 40%, don’t you?
http://www.mrcpuk.org/Results/Pages/ExamPassRates.aspx
Are you implying that William is going to struggle to pass the MRCP just because it has a 40% pass rate? For all we know, he might be a highly motivated top class candidate and breeze through it.
With near 100% pass rates for a few medical schools you and I know, I am afraid some graduates might have delusions about their postgraduate prospects 😀
Well, even Lee Kuan Yew’s daughter failed her MRCP Part 1 on her first attempt;
http://www.asiaone.com/News/Education/Story/A1Story20090504-139135.html
And I’m not saying that William will not pass the MRCP; I’m simply highlighting the fact of this matter to him. (Although he can certainly use some help with his grammar)
Correction: MRCP Part 2 for Lee Kuan Yew’s daughter
Must have been a severe blow to LKY’s eugenic ideals…
Hi Sir ,
I am currently undergoing training in Family Medicine in Singapore Health Clusters ( MOH – Singapore ) & would be eligible to give M.Med ( FM ) & FRACGP exams after 5 yrs from now.
I am interested in clearing all the 3 parts of MRCP
As i would not spend my time in wards , managing inpatient , is it advisable to go for PACES ?
Will MRCP really help in my practice , as i aim to be a Family Medicine Specialist.
Waiting for your reply
Thanking You
Dr.Murali Krishna MBBS(JIPMER) 2010
TTSH , Singapore
Why do you want to do MRCP if you are doing FRACGP? It is of no value to you if you are going to work as Family Medicine specialist.
Im Dr.Ameer from India, working here In Kesihatan Kementerian as Medical officer for 2 yrs contract basis.
I had applied to convert my Indian driving license to Malaysian ( as Indian driving license accepted in Malaysia), but JPJ in Putra Jaya KL they rejected my application, and told I got VISIT PASS ( TEMPERORY) …. they only accept work permit/ Employment pass…..
When I enquire in immigration department they told, they issuing all doctors only Visit pass ( Temeperory)…
Is there any other solution to change Indian driving license to Malaysia/?
Try coverting your license to International driving license. Why are they only issuing Visit pass when you are employed by MOH?
dear dr.pagalavan,
i find your blog very very very interesting. I’m actually a form sixer whose intending to do medicine. It’s medicine or nothing for me. My parents tried to advice me but i’m still adamant of becoming a doctor. I’ve been doing surveys on quite a number of universities now and there’s always something to say about that university. People might say one is good,another might say no. This is the dilemma i’m facing and i’m also aiming for a mbbs programme in NUS and is that possible. I heard the singapore government is allocating 10% of its medic seats to foreign students. So here i am. I noticed that you are very professional in what you do,dr.pagalavan and i like it. So,i’m here to seek for your advice on my matter. You suggest mbbs local,masters foreign or vice versa? And also which university would you recommend to attend in terms of quality and cost?
The glut is getting worst. The MO post for NS, Malacca and Selangor is deemed full. Thus it is best to do your undergraduate degree in an internationally recognised university where you can work in many countries. Yes, NUS do accept some foreign students BUT it is not easy to be accepted into these university. You need to score atleast 5/4As in STPM. As in Malaysia, I would only recommend UM, UKM and USM. UM and UKM is recognised in Singapore but you need 5As to get into these universities. You can decide what postgraduate degree to do after you complete your housemanship. You can’t think of postgraduate degree if you can’t get a job in the first place. Trust me, the situation is getting from bad to worst in Malaysia. If you are ready interested in medicine for what is medicine all about and willing to put up with all these frustrations, then go ahead.
Hi Dr. Pagalavan,
I am a third year medical student from a private Uni in local and I would like to ask, after graduate, I will have to do 2 years housemanship rite? After that 2 years or 3 years of compulsory service do i have to go through? And when can I continue my specialty training if Im considering being a surgeon in Singapore? thank you very much.
I wrote this on a separate forum; so I thought I’d share it here again:
Health care in Singapore has undergone a major restructuring programme – basically public health care is now split among 5 health clusters, namely the National Healthcare Group (NHG), the National University Health System (NUHS), Singhealth and 2 other hospitals (Khoo Teck Puat and Jurong) – residency training will only be provided in the former three but more on that later.
The traditional system in Singapore goes something like this:
For specialists: medical graduate – house officer – medical officer – medical officer (basic specialist trainee) – registrar (advanced specialist trainee) – associate consultant- consultant – senior consultant (the whole process takes up more or less 8 to 10 years depending on the specialty choice)
And then of course you have the family physician/GP track which is considerably shorter in addition to a clinical research track.
Such a long training period would invariably mean a shorter career for full-fledged physicians, hence Singapore’s decision to introduce the residency programme which is modeled after its namesake in the US. The new system will be implemented under the guidance from the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) – now before you start salivating about the prospects of working in America after your stint in Singapore, the residency programme will NOT qualify you as a physician in America nor does the Singapore government want you to leave its system – “we don’t need a brain drain in Singapore” as the recruiter puts it nicely. You will only be able to work in Singapore, and that is despite taking the same board exams that US residents take – a board-certificed physician who cannot work in the US.
The biggest advantage of this residency system is the ability to enter the programme straight out of medical school – straight into R1. Now, say if your first attempt at matching is unsuccessful, you can still be a house officer (PGY1) and then apply the following year as a PGY2 – of course your chances will naturally increase as you get better at what you’re doing and you know more people in the system.
There’s a lot more detail behind the whole application process – apparently they have to accommodate graduates from three different time frames (Yong Loo Lin, UK and Aus)
Oh and not forgetting remuneration ; while not as good as Australia, it is still much better than what you get in Malaysia. (Btw, the pay is dependent on your seniority, it doesn’t mean that a PGY1 resident will earn more than a PGY1 houseman, so you won’t actually see much earning potential until at least you’re through with your residency)
House officers get a base salary of 3.000 SGD per month, locals get CPF while foreigners (mostly Malaysians anyway) get an additional 850 SGD housing allowance. House officers are expected to work 60-65 hours per week (surgical residents 80 hours +) and you’ll probably get six or seven night calls per month (110 SGD per call). And of course you have bonuses, either group or personal and not forgetting ……………….lunch money !!!!!!! (8 SGD weekdays, 12 SGD weekends)
PGY2s get a slight bump in their salary package, basic pay is around 4,000 SGD and you get 220 SGD per call.
Just to add a few more details: since you are from a local private university (none of which is currently recognised in Singapore), I would say your chances are pretty slim; MOHH showed us the application numbers for the pioneer batch of residents and they don’t look very good (way more applicants than seats available, especially for the usual suspects ortho, plastic etc) Sure, you could stick with your choice and try again year after year, but it’s best that you start early in the Singapore system (know the people and the system), preferably by completing your internship in Singapore, but again I don’t see how that’s possible for you unless you’re doing the IMU-PMS program.
After 2 years HO , you need another 2 years compulsory service ( total 4 years). AS for singapore, your undergraduate degree need to be recognised by Singapore Medical council in order for you to work there. None of the Malaysian degree except Um/UKM is recognised in Singapore. Thus if you want to do surgical training in Singapore, you need to pass the MRCS before applying.
Btw Dr Pagalavan,
I’d love to hear your thoughts on the new residency program in Singapore – do you think such a model will be adopted in Malaysia eventually – especially if Perdana is successful?
Personally I don’t like this residency system. It creates a lot of subspecialised specialist who do not know basic medicine. IT is not feasible in our country at the moment where you can be practising in district hospitals etc. The UK system is much better for countries like Malaysia where you need to have strong foundation before subspecialising.
The situation is different in US where you need to have a basic degree before enrolling into medical education. Their hospitals are all private hospitals with good ER services. All diagnosis are made in the ER before calling the respective consultants/units for further management. Can we do that in Malaysia? Well, we all know the situation of medicine in US, full of investigations and cover backside medicine.
Singapore has a very developed medical healthcare system. They have good ER services and every speciality in every hospital. They have good human resource and a very small country. Other then hospitals, they have got polyclinics which are mainly run by foreign doctors. They also practise CBM ( cover backside medicine). Patients are broken into body parts and 1 patient will be seen by 4-5 teams of doctors!
Pagal
Dr Pagal,
If you could answer this question for me, I’d really appreciate it.
If I have already completed both parts of MRCS and gone for the specialty training in Singapore, would I then be eligible to work in Malaysia as a Surgeon?
And if not, what valid option do I have so that I can get a qualification as a Surgeon to work in Malaysia while still have a window opening to work elsewhere in the future should I want to? As I understood, Master of Sugery programme in Malaysian Uni is not recognized outside the country – not even in Singapore.
Thanks in advance
Yes, at the moment surgical training in Singapore is recognised in Malaysia but I am not sure whether this will change in the future as Singapore is introducing residency system.
Dear dr.Pagalavan,
it’s me again and this time i would just like to know what are the demanding speciality fields that i could venture into? I’m currently amazed by vascular surgery. Does it have a bright future?
I think you should not decide what you want do when you have not even started your medical education. Yes, at the moment vascular is hot in demand but things wil change in the next 10-15 years. It will take you another 15 years for you to become a vascular surgeon! You will only know what you are interested in after you complete your housemanship. I have had people who wanted to become this and that but ended up resigning as doctors! Many will get dissapointed along the way as things don’t happen as what you want it to be. Even training post are limited and competitive.
Hi ,
I am a family physician working in India , can i give MRCP exams
I heard it is not much difficult to pass part 1 & 2 , BUT how would u advice me to go for PACES…Do u advice me to work in any hospital or do u think , i can proceed with my FM seeing patients.
Kindly advice appropriately
You need hospital experience and good physical examination skills. Thus it is advisable to practise in hospital setting.
Dr Pagalavan.
thanks for the article.
i did not get thru my masters in surgery about 3 years ago.since then i have been sitting for MRCS, awaiting to pass part III now. After that may go singapore like i have suggested and probabloy apply for their training program.
Just wondering what do u think about me joining the university now as a trainning lecturer, say in UPM then getting back into the masters programme again.
DR M
Thanks.
you must understand that joining a lecturer training programme has it’s own pros and cons. You will be bonded for 7 years if I am not mistaken. Unless you are really into academic life than there is no point joining this programme. Of course, it is one of the way of getting into Master’s programme. BUT will you be accepted again into Master’s programme since you left once?
hi Dr, Im SN. Ive always wanted to do ORL HNS but found that my medical skills is better than my surgical skills hence as a new MO im sent to do medical and psychiatry which is a bummer. Still interested in ORL HNS and requesting to change department which will take a long time. Its making me a bit depressed that im not even given the chance to experience ORL-HNS. May i have ur advice on how i should proceed with all these extra time in my hands? MRCP? MRCS?
If you are still interested in ENT then procede to do MRCS. After passing Part 1 probably you can apply for Master’s. After Part 1 probably you can ask your Pengarah to send you to ENT department. Situation like this is going to be very common soon as the glut gets worst. Some department may not have enough post to take everyone.
hi sir,
can u please tell me about the training process for mrcog 1 in saudi arabia,any advice would be appreciated, thanks
I am sorry, I got no idea.
Hi Sir, How are You?
I am currently a junior HO in local University hospital, and i have a huge passion of becoming a specialist in OG field someday.
I noted many doctors in my hosp competing for the masters programme.
It would be great if i know: what option and flow to become one of the specialist. Masters vs ?MRCOG.
Thank you, alot. 🙂
Hi Sir, How are You?
I am currently a junior HO in local University hospital, and i have a huge passion of becoming a specialist in OG field someday.
I noted many doctors in my hosp competing for the masters programme.
It would be great if i know: what option and flow to become one of the specialist. Masters vs ?MRCOG.
Thank you, alot.
Please decide after you complete your housemanship, your perception may change along the way. Both Master’s or MRCOG will do but I would suggest that you do MRCOG as well even if you can get into Master’s programme.
Hi Dr, I am a MBBS graduate from AIMST, i was working as a House Officer in Government Hospital from 2008, i couldn’t complete my houseman training due to my illness, i quit my job after doing 3 posting ( Ortho,Medicine and Surgery )on Jan 2010, it has been almost 2years now, and now i am completely fine after undergoing treatment.
I want to continue my houseman program again but SPA has rejected my application. What shall i do?
There must be something written in your file previously that made SPA to reject your application! You can still try to apply to MOH to work on contract basis. Usually once you resign, they will not take you in as full time gov servant. Contract is possible
Dear Dr. Paga
My daughter is currently a 4th year medical student in Aimst. i just want to know after sitting for FRCS exam is she able to practice medicine overseas eg UK, or Australia? I understand that her degree is not recognised elsewhere as i am opting that she might be able to practice medicine in other countries after the FRCS exam.
Hi there,
First of all, your daughter can’t sit for the FRCS exam. There is no FRCS exam (sort of … but I’ll get to that later).
There is the MRCS (M=Membership) which she can sit. In the UK, candidates who have completed all parts of the MRCS are eligible to apply for advanced surgical training posts. After the MRCS, they are not yet specialists – barely halfway thru training. At the end of their training, they are awarded the FRCS (F=Fellowship) postnominal. Some surgical specialties have an exit exam (e.g. Ophthalmology) before they are allowed to get the FRCS but most don’t.
While you daughter can sit the MRCS exam, her surgical training in Malaysia will not be counted by UK authorities and she would have to sit the PLAB exam to be eligible to work in the UK. Note that being eligible to work doesn’t mean you will get a job – because there is no shortage currently and EU nationals get preference. Same with Australia – have to sit the AMC exam to be eligible to work but there, the MRCS on its own is not worth the paper its printed on.
Singapore might be an option, but really depends on whether or not they want you. they don’t recognise the AIMST degree but they might take into account the MRCS.
I have only talked about surgical training because you mentioned the FRCS exam. While it’s good to think about options, your daughter should look at these things again once she’s a house officer and talk to seniors in her department – things are changing very rapidly and I think more doors will close rather than open in the future.
As Nav has said, you cannot do FRCS training in Malaysia. You can complete MRCS in Malaysia but this does not make you a surgeon! However, you can try Singapore for further training after completing MRCS. In Malaysia, the only way to become a surgeon is by doing the local Master’s programme. This is not recognised elsewhere either.
Since you undergraduate degree is not recognised elsewhere, she can’t for training anywhere else, unless she sits for the entrance exams. However, passing this exam does not guarantee a job!
thank you!!! i will let her know about it.
Dear Dr Pagalavan, I’m a houseman, still undergoing training currently.Just about to enter 2nd year. I’m interested in medical field and I hv an interest to do MRCP exam. But I feel I am sooo lack of practical skills. Now, still thinking of my next plan. Which hospital do u think would provide me a lot of chances to learn practically and theoretically? And now I can actually start to take the part 1 MRCP right? Sorry for asking too much, just thinking that I need an expert answer from someone experienced like u.
Please read my article on “: Step by step approach to internal medicine” under my “F or future doctors ” page. Any big general hospitals will do . You need to find time to practise clinical skills. Someone senior should take you for short cases on a weekly basis.
this webiste is full of information. great service indeed
HI DR. Pagalavan Letchumanan…I”m one of the MO in rural area.i’m very much interested in further my studies to become a dermatologist. Apparently i have heard that we can do dermatologist without enrolling master programme.
If you don’t mind could you please brief on that matter. your information is very much appreciated. thank you.
You need MRCP and then subspecialise in Dermatology.
Marcus
hi, dr. Pagalavan Letchumanan…i am a USM final year medical student..(a malaysian) not more than a year away from housemanship…i hope i can be an O&G specialist in S’pore in time to come..and not to forget if possible, i hope i can also work as HO,,MO in s’pore..Unfortunately, USM is not one of the recognised hospital In s’pore neither in undergraduate or postgraduate degree..i lost all along my way after knowing the news…After seeing comments above,then a few questions kept puzzling me…
1)any possiblity where i can do housemanship in S’pore? (as i heard that there is a chance/need/must to be a private candidate to sit n pass for NUS final year exam before proceeding to HO in S’pore….am i wrong??) If i am correct, where n when should i apply?? If my application of being a HO in S’pore is approved by S’pore authority, is there any chances for me to continue my MO and then S’pore postgraduate programme as it treats the local s’pore medical graduates??
2)From the comments above, i realised that the only way that i can practise medicine and be an O&G specialist in S’pore is by taking MRCOG…
—What means by a proposer when i take MRCOG??Role??Who, where n when i should seek a proposer when i finish medical undergraduate (before or during housemanship)??
3)if i take MRCOG, should i take in m’sia or s’pore?any differences/benefits?
4)what a proposer look into me before propose me for MRCOG??
5)if i take MRCOG,as i am an USM undergraduate,should i get a m’sia O&G proposer or s’pore O&G proposer??Do S’pore O&G proposer will accept and propose me to take MRCOG since i am a m’sian USM undergraduate??and let’s say if one of S’pore O&G proposer accept n plan to propose me for MRCOG,but at the same time i am doing housemanshp in m’sia,what should i do?should i quit the malaysia HO and proceed to S’pore housemanship or or continue my housemanship in m’sia??
6)if i’m passing MRCOG part 1 (that held in m’sia) while doing m’sia housemanship, can i or do s’pore accept me if i plan to do my at least 4 years training in one of s’pore Hosp O&G department??n subsequently complete MRCOG part 2 held in S’pore?(in this condition who will be my proposer??m’sia’s or s’pore’s)—can i have different proposer of MRCOG in my case??
7)can i go s’pore to proceed my MRCOG part 2 (after passing MRCOG part 1) while i am in the half way of compulsory training (2+2) in m’sia??do i need to resign from m’sia gov service?n what is “no pay leave” ??
8) Taking MRCOG—at least 4 years training in O&G department before MRCOG part 2—is it considered as post-graduate training or equivalent to master programme training?
i hope dr. can understand me n answer me accordingly..thanks for your assistance and look forward for your kindly explanation….
1) Yes, you need to sit and pass the NUS final year exam. No guarantee that you get a post or postgraduate training post.
2) your proposer should be someone with MRCOG
3) Same
4) up to the proposer
5) Your proposer must be someone who knows you and have worked with you.
6) NO, you need to complete the entire MRCOG in order to go to singapore.
7) as no 6.
at the moment MRCOG is equivalent to Master’s.
Finally, pls complete your housemanship before deciding on what to do. Things will change.
thans a lot dr..
thanks a lot..dr…
still got a few questions from me…
1) to who n where should i refer if i plan to take NUS final year exams? in other words, can u please guide me or brief me on how to apply n enroll myself into NUS final year exams?how, where n when i should apply for that?
2)if i pass the NUS final year exams, (though i also pass my USM undergraduate degree), am i qualify to apply Housemanship in s’pore even though USM is my mother’s school which is not one of the recognised school by s’pore?do s’pore authority treat me as their local medical undergraduate with that instead?
1) please contact Singapore Medical Council
2) Yes you can apply for housemanship but you are not considered as a local grad.
Hi Doctor,
I’ve been looking at the information regarding the Singapore residency system, and well, although Singapore is said to have a good reputation, I can’t help but feel that their new residency system is not as good as they make it out to be. A friend of mine from NUS medicine said that it’s very messy for them.
1) What are your thoughts on getting postgrad training from Singapore? Is it worth anything internationally or are we essentially “forced” to settle there?
Has anyone had experience here? I haven’t heard good things about the working environment there. Particularly as I’ll be graduating from the UK, I’m also unsure of the matching rate of UK non-EU grads into postgrad training. Even if we were to try US, there’s USMLE – if we were to try Australia, there’s no need to sit PLAB, but I think we’re considered after all the intern spots there are filled.
2) What are the realistic prospects for obtaining postgraduate training in Australia (rural/non-rural)?
3) If I was considering Singapore training after graduating in the UK – would passing up the FY1 and FY2 houseman years there and GMC registration be advisable to work in Singapore as a houseman? Would developing contacts there for residency outweigh the potential loss of training opportunities in the UK?
4) Is a “machine gun” approach wise? I.e. apply broadly to US, UK, Aus, NZ, Singapore, M’sia?
Sorry for the boatload of questions. Thanks a million for your patience, kindness and effort in maintaining this blog. If we hadn’t come across the information here, I don’t think many of us would even realize the difficulties we’re about to face.
1) at the moment their postgraduate training is recognised elsewhere as they use to tie up their degree with MRCP/FRCS?FANZA etc. However, the new residency system is associated with the American Board certification. Whicever country that recognises this certification may recognise your training.
Whether you will get a post or not depends on their availability and your performance. They will not give you a postgrad post directly. You may need to work as a MO before applying for apost.
2) It is the same. Depends on which field and preference is given to their citizens and PRs.
3) If I am not mistaken, if you complete your FY1&2 in UK, you don’t need to do housemanship again in Singapore.
4) Can try!
Hello Dr
I am currently a medical officer working in a Klinik kesihataan, i am intrsted in family medicine….is there any other external paper for this programe which is recognised by KKM…
Yes, you can sit for FRACGP. It is a 4 year structured course conducted by Academy of Family Physicians of Malaysia. Pls contact them.
Hello Dr.
I’m still a medical student in Russia, 5th year. I would like to ask which source should I go to to inquire further about doing a postgraduate course, qualifications needed, recognition of overseas postgraduate programmes, etc.
I would also like to inquire about your opinion concerning where should I do my postgraduate course. I’m considering surgery, obstetrics or neonatal as a specialty.
Any advice would be most helpful. Thank you
Unlike undergraduate medicine, there is no such thing as a taught course when it comes to postgraduate medical/surgical degrees. Postgrad specialist training involves competing for a very limited number of training posts. Working in these posts, one provides service whilst getting experience and training on the job. Then there are exams to sit and pass (relevant to each specialty) in order to be conferred the degree. Postgrad medicine/surgery is like an apprenticeship.
Hello Jon J
how and what an undergraduate course is like, that I already know, but thank you for the input.
problem is that I don’t really know where to start looking for a post-graduate course. As good as Russia is, it still remains my last choice (7 years here is enough). Thus, I was hoping to get some input, opinion from other med students/postgrads/doctors here.
I think your question has been answered in the post. But here you are anyway:
You can do all 3 specialties you mentioned via the Malaysian Masters programme, noting that neonatology is a subspecialty of paediatrics. If you don’t want to rely on the Masters route, you can sit the MRCOG and MRCPCH exams for O&G and paeds respectively. For surgery however, MRCS is not recognised for training in Malaysia, although sitting the exams will help you get into the Masters programmes. Sitting these external exams may also help get you into Singapore, but they usually don’t look too kindly upon medical degrees from the ex-communist bloc.
Most of your questions has been answered before. In Malaysia, for all surgical field, the only option is local Master’s programme except MRCOG ( for Obstetrics). To become a physician or paediatrician, you have the option of doing MRCP or MRCPCH. Neonatologist is a subspeciality of paediatrics, thus you need to become a paediatrician first. You can visit the national specialist registry at website http://www.nsr.gov.my for further info on recognisable degree then go on to the respective colleges website for the programme.
Dear Dr,
This is quite an interesting platform for discussion regarding various ways for career development. However i feel personally that the medical recognition rules have become too stringent and biased these days. I am an Indian national and completed as MD Physician from Medical University in Bulgaria in 2004. After this i obtained Specialist license in General Surgery in 2010 from same university in Bulgaria. After the accession of Bulgaria into the European Union, the degrees from Bulgaria were mentioned in the EU directives, which means to say is it became ” at par” with similar qualifications from other EU member states. This is to say that someone who was graduate from the university can now work anywhere within Europe as specialist or GP. However there is a twist to the tale…The above privilege is only available to citizens of EU countries..Therefore it doesnot matter whether you spent last 10 years finishing your studies from an EU state, at the end of the day you are still biased on basis of your nationality ( Non EU). Therefore my Bulgarian counterparts can apply and work directly in UK as GP’s and Registrars while on the same hand i cannot due to my nationality. The other twist to the whole tale is that the Indian medical council disapproves of all postgraduate degrees obtained in Europe ( except the UK), which means to say you cannot even apply for govt based jobs in hospitals within India. At the end of the day its a total mess up of recognition and recognitions, which i totally agree is country to country dependable, but then there should be some fairness to the whole situation. Now i am looking towards MRCS, dont know how much that will help in applying for any further training.
Any wise advises to the above scenario?
Regards
PA.
As you will be aware that UK is slowly closing it’s doors to non-UK and non-EU citizens. This is due to their immigration laws. Even if you have MRCS there is no guarantee that you will get a training post. It may allow you to go back to India or Singapore.
Dear sir,
I’m a medical student currently studying in a local university and I’m a JPA scholarship holder. There are some questions about the future of a fresh graduates from medical course.
1. Since I’m a JPA scholarship holder, is it still possible for me to sit for the MRCP/USMLE exam, assuming I pass all 3 parts of it, go overseas to continue my master programme in a foreign country and only returning to serve m’sia as a recognized specialist? I’m fine with doing HO and MO here, it’s the limited places for master programmes that’s frightening me.
2. One of my prof. suggest that we should take USMLE part1 and start preparing for it while we are in 2nd yr as the exam syllabus is almost the same as our 1st and 2nd yr’s syllabus combined. Do you recommend or oppose this idea and why is that?
3. Honestly I’m not sure whether USMLE is better or MRCP is a wiser choice. I’m still not sure where and what specialty I’m going to further my studies on, but I would like to have the ability to choose, not studying some course chosen by our government or forced to choose something I’m not interested in due to the limited places available for master programmes you mentioned in your article. I’m honestly lost now, so it would be great for you to give some advice to help me and all other medical students avoid from this terrible situation.
1. Unlikely, unless JPA become more flexible. Usually, they bond you from your HO year. They will waive that bond once you enter local Masters (because you cease to become a MOH employee in some cases) but a different bond will start after the Masters. Having said that, everything negotiable. If you talk to JPA and get a waiver to say that you will serve the govt after you return from postgrad overseas, then why not?!
2. Your prof is a smart man. Listen to him – if you are going to sit the USMLE.
3. USMLE and MRCP are 2 different exams for different purposes. USMLE is a medical school exam. It allows you to work in the US. It is not a specialist exam. Your marks in it will determine which internship and residency you can get into. The MRCP is taken after medical school, and allows you to gain entry into into a specialty training programme in medicine (not surgery or other specialties). It is also not a specialist exam (i.e. having the MRCP does not make you a specialist – although many Malaysians like to think so). Having the MRCP opens doors to Singapore and may increase your chances of getting into a local Masters programme. You can also become a specialist in Malaysia by applying for gazettement (18 months of supervision after MRCP).
1) As a JPA scholar, you are bonded for 10 years. The last I heard, they do not allow you to leave the government service during this time without paying a fine. You may be lucky even to get a job soon
2) You can sit for USMLE but passing this exam does not guaranteed you a slot in training programme in US. Whether you will get a post or not depends on your performance in USMLE and availability of post. Their training system is also different.
3) USMLE is an entrance exam to work in US. MRCP is an entry exam to speciality training to become a physician. They are 2 different exams for 2 different purposes. It is better to wait till you complete all the rotation during housemsannhip before deeciding what speciality to choose.
Regarding USMLE, it is advisable for Malaysian local students to do it while they are still in med school. The reason being most PDs (Program Directors) don’t like to see a gap in between your graduation and the application for interview. They always ask what you were doing during the gap years. Once you have started the housemanship, it will be difficult to take a break, and swallowing the 8 kaplan text books takes a few months, that is if you are a fast reader, not including the time needed to go for electives and interview around the states.
USMLE can be a long tedious process if you aim for good university programs. People start preparing for their cv in med school itself, by doing research, community services, writing for publication, going for electives and all.
Dear Sir, I am a medical student from Melaka Manipal Medical College, currently in 3rd year of my studies. I am interested in the surgical field, but as u mentioned above, masters seats are kind of limited, is it a disadvantage for me as a private college student compared to those in public universities like UM & UKM. And if I want to migrate to Australia, what is your advice on that? Can I apply for intern in australia after graduation, apply for masters in australia or intern with malaysia MOH before applying for AMC?
Not a disadvantage being from a private uni, but you may find race-based discrimination (or advantage, depending on your race).
MMMC degree not recognised in Australia. If you want to go there, you should start work in Malaysia and sit for the AMC exams while working. Passing the AMC exams is no guarantee of getting a job – only makes you eligible to do intern year there (yes, you have to start from scratch). It is getting more and more difficult to get jobs there because they also have increased graduates coming through from their own universities.
MMMC is not recognised elsewhere, so you need to sit for the AMC exam if you want to work in Australia. LOcal Master’s programme has quotas! Cables are also important. Selection process is never transparent, typical of Malaysian style. You got no choice but to work in MOH and try to sit for AMC exam which is quite expensive BTW. NO guarantee that you will get a post after that either.
Sir ,
Though i am interested in Family Practice , i sometimes feel that patients do not give much respect to GP’s & everyone always talk about specialists , bcoz gp’s always refer to a specialist.
Are GP’s not of any value ?
Should i forget about my reputation ?
is FM a reputed area ?
I dont know , whether a gp has a good reputation in society ?
Kindly advice , as i got a FM offer in Singapore
At the moment whether you have a family medicine postgraduate degree or not, you are still considered as a GP, same as any MBBS holder. You will not be able to charge higher then a normal GP. However, things may change in the future. When the National Healthcare Financing scheme is introduced ( Gos knows when !), then the FM specialist may be able to charge higher. General MBBS holding GP is a dying field and patients nowadays are more keen to see a specialist. That’s the reason why most GPs try their best not to refer patients to a specialist as the patients will never come back to them.
Hello,
I just applied for housemanship in Malaysia few days ago. I am interested in doing postgrad in dermatology. Which hospitals in malaysia you suggest i should do my posting which would help me more in dermatology?
Firstly, MOH will decide where you are going to be posted. There is no such thing as postgraduate in dermatology. You need to become a physician by doing MRCP or Masters in Medicine before applying for subspeciality training in dermatology.
You will not do any dermatology posting during housemanship and thus it does not matter where you do housemanship.
HI Dr pagalavan, I’m one of future Hos, and Im confused to which specialty i’d like to take. What do you think of radionuclide physician, esp their prospect in private sector? and what is the path for it? and how about anaesthesiologist? Thanks you in advanced! =))
Please think of how to be a good HO first before you go about to think what you want to specialise in. For one, you may change your interest, and most importantly, many of the HOs can’t even do a simple thing such as being a safe doctor. Why think so far ahead? Why plan so far ahead, when you can’t even be sure you will certainly get a place for housemanship due to the glut.
It’s good advice to always first focus at the immediate task at hand (eg: being a good and safe HO).
But I always encourage all my medical students and trainees to have a medium and long term plan. It confers focus and helps to develop a strong CV with a “theme” that is so important when applying for particularly competitive specialties. Yes, interests can change. But you would be surprised how many good colleagues and trainees I have whom had decided on their career paths by the time they had graduated.
There is no written rule that one has to hit targeted career milestones in order to advance in specialty training. But most successful trainees hit the milestones within a range of expected timescales. If you miss your chance, the next wave of trainees will be along and you may be cast into the pot of those who are unlikely to ever make it.
So yes, focus on the task at hand, but if wish to find out more about future specialties, I encourage you to do so and do not be put off by those who tell you not to bother as yet.
If you might allow me the conceit of myself as an example, I completed my specialty training 11.5 yrs after graduation from med school. In my specialty, the average as per Royal College stats is 13.5 yrs. No, I had not decided on my specialty in med school, but I did have a future plan at every stage:
1) med student – decided on surgical career pathway
2) HO/SHO – decided on surgical specialty and to do research related to specialty
3) research fellow – reaffirmed plan of surgical specialty, explored potential subspecialties
4) specialist registrar – decided on subspecialty
5) subspecialty fellow – decided on where I wanted to work as a consultant.
Moral – concentrate on your current task but always have direction. Advance on a narrow front (eg: take on only limited research projects at a time, but always finish each one).
I wish you all the best.
Thank you so much for your long response Jon J!! you enlightened me..
You need to become a physician first by doing MRCP or Master’s before subspecialising in Radionuclear. It is NOT popular in private sector. Only less than 5 private hospitals in the country have radionuclear physicians and each one of this only needs 1 physician!
Anaesth is a popular field and many are not getting a post for Master’s. The situation will get worst. FANZA is another option but only few hospitals in Malaysia are gazetted as training centre. There is no point thinking about money anymore, in near future all doctor’s income is going to be low, same as any other field!
You just try to do what you are interested in
Hi renin,
Malaysia is still very short of anaesthetists in the public sector. They don’t train enough per year because they have very limited Masters places. It is increasing in popularity in Malaysia so will be very hard to get in because of the number of graduates being produced vs the number of training places available. If you get on to training, there will be a good job for you in the public sector because they still need more specialists in each hospital and they are upgrading many district hospitals. The private market is saturated however.
Thank you dr Pagalavan! really appreciated it
Thanksss Nav! Now i had a clearer view on this matter
HI DR, i m steve, student of university of Malaya, recently just get offer by singapore government as a HO there, however, i heard that non singapore citizen will have difficulty to get a place in residency programme, is this the true. I am worry of this because i do not want to work as MO the whole life there. These is because going to singapore is a big decision, as once we go there, we cannot come back to serve malaysia unless we become specialist. This what i heard from my senior. This is why every year, many of UM students get an offer there but rejects it. Can u give me a guidance weather i shall stay here or go singapore. if i stay here, which hospital u recommend as the HO. Thk you for ur guidance.
It is all up to you. Getting a trainee post there is very competitive. Obviously their citizens will be given preference. It will be easier to get a post in non-popular fields. Thus, it depends on which field you are going to choose.
Otherwise as you said, you need to complete everthing before coming home. Most of the time, majority will not come back!
Obviously, it is not going to be easy to get a post in Malaysia either due to the current glut!
Hi Steve, in my opinion you should go. Apply for Singapore PR and you will be pushed up the ladder, though their citizens might still get preference. Better to finish your postgrad training there and then try to come back if you want. There is still no guarantee you will get the training post you want wherever you end up, the popular specialties are just that much more competitive these days. Good luck.
I am looking for such a post, thanks for sharing such valuable information.
Dear Dr Pagalvan
I have to say that ur blogs are informative. however i somewhat disagree with ur crticisms and biased judgements of certain established medical schools like MMMC. you make it sound as if they produce complteley dumb doctors but mind you there are many who are doing quite well out there. as if other unis create super intelligwnt doctors all along. u get all kinds of doctors from all kinds of unis. eg they say russia produces horrible medical graduates but one of my top specialists in ONG hails from russia. dont blame the unis. doctors good or bad u get them from every damn uni and it depends on each doctors capability finally at the end of the day. there is no SUPERIOR UNI. at the end of the day patients go to see a capable doctor but not based on where they hraduate from.
I think I have said this before: It does not matter which university you graduate from but 2 important factors remain:
1) good entrance qualifications, we must admit that you need certain level of intelligency to become a doctor.
2) genuine interest and passion in doing medicine.
The problem with some of our local colleges is that they have started to lower down their standards to take as many students as possible. They do this via backdoor by introducing “foundation studies”. I know of many SPM students who have been offered medical seat by just using their SPM results. The seat is guaranteed but need to do foundation studies. These foundation studies are all done within the college without any standardisation like STPM, A Levels, IB etc.
Same goes for Russian graduates. There are so many medical colleges in Russia, good and bad ones. Majority of the Bad russian students that I have seen DO NOT have the 2 criteria above.
But doing well in A-level or STPM cannot prove u will be doing well in medical school…(even with all As)….for example, typical a-level subjects for student who wan to go med school are BIOLOGY, CHEMISTRY, PHYSICS or Maths…in med school, the things that u learnt from chemistry and physics during u a-level are totally useless from wat u get to learn in med school….so, basically i think that a better pre-u like pre-medical courses which prioritize certain subjects in med school like human anatomy and etc will be a better measure for entering med school…
Yes, but these pre medical courses must be standardised and not biased. Most of Malaysian uni runs this foundation studies as a big scam!! Just a eyewash!
In my own experience of provision of undergraduate and postgraduate medical/surgical training (now exceeding 10 years), I would have to agree with Dr Paga that robust university entry requirements and personal passion are the two most fundamental cornerstones for ensuring the best chance of a top class doctor.
Yes, I am sure that there are decent medical graduates from MMMC and Russia. But so too does everyone I know have some relative who smoked, drank and lived a lifestyle of excess yet lived well into their ninth decade. These are the exceptions who prove the rule.
The fact is, quality institutions have robust entry requirements and also attract quality applicants. Hence, such institutions are far more often and far more likely to produce a top quality graduate. It’s a simple matter of probabilities. Yes, they do occasionally produce a dud. Once again, the exception which proves the rule.
Top quality applicants do not normally seek to study at places like MMMC and Russia out of choice. I will accede that on occasion, a late bloomer does shine at university after struggling through secondary school. Once again, the exception that proves the rule.
By and large, top quality applicants to top quality medical schools have a long history of excellent performance throughout their school years. And it carries through into their postgraduate careers as well. Most of the best surgeons I trained with; and my best specialist registrars have typically had a long history of excellence.
You might be right that there is no such thing as a “SUPERIOR UNI”, but there sure are a lot of mediocre ones which have relatively low entry requirements to medicine.
Sir,
What will be the proper steps that i should take to pursue my life as a
Cardiothoracic Surgeon? I just done with my spm..Thank you in advance.
I think it is better for you not to think what you want to become when you have not even step foot into a medical school. Things will change along the way. To become a cardiothoracic surgeon: complete 2 years of Houemanship, 2 years of medical officer, complete 4 years of Master’s in Surgery, 6 months of gazettement after that, 1-2 years of waiting to get subspeciality training , 4 years of Cardiothoracic training. All this assuming you get your Master’s seat on first try and you pass on first try. Even after all these, you are not necessarily competent to perform a cardiac surgery on your own. It will take another few more years to be competent.
hi Dr, may i know wat documents needed to sit for mrcp?
Pls check the MRCPT(UK) website or contact UM.
I am looking for such a post, thanks for sharing such valuable information.
Dear Sir, I’m a SPM student. I’m interested in medical but I’m afraid that I can’t do it. I just want to ask is it very tough in the routes to becoming a doctor ? I mean doing the housemanship,studies all stuff?
please read through my blog under “education” and “for future doctors” page. If you are worried about tough life, life long learning and no social life, then forget about medicine.
Hi..Dr,Thanks for all your information,I am interested in doing internal medicine specialist..so if i finish MRCP in malaysia and undergoes 18 months of gazettement…is the status same as taking master in medicine in local uni?will mrcp increase my chance in getting course in local uni?
thanks dr for your concern and time..
please read my topic on ” step by step approach to internal medicine specialisation” under For future doctors page
hi once dr Pagalavan…happy new year to u and all the readers. i wanted to know the process of getting registered by MMC.their website is not very clear. for foreign medical gradutes what is the procedure and how do we get to know about the exam rules and question guideline? can u suggest me which books to read and the exam registration process? from their website i found there are 2 dates every year.march-april and around october. but when do i register before exam is not written.will be grateful for the informations.thanks.
You need to write in to MMC to apply to sit for the entrance exam, atleast 3 months ahead of the date of exam. The exam that you will be sitting will be the same as the final year exam of the students in UM,USM and UKM. The exam format depends on which of these university is allocated for you.
i’m gonna follow ur blog.such an informative n good blog.btw.i’m still searching ur post on part 1 n part 2.where is it?
Pls go to “for futre doctors” page
this blog is very informative. i would like to ask one question. currently i’m mo in klinik kesihatan. if i pass entrance exam in ophtal can i apply master ophtal in ukm despite no experience in ophtal dept as mo?
It is up to the respective universities. Usually they prefer taking MOs with experience.
hi!
u’ve got an amazing blog here!
i’m a 4th year medical student.currently interested in taking ::public health master:: after graduation n HO.what is the prospect of this master in medicine field?as in will i still be connected to the hospitals or what other options will thr be?and if i’m interested in being a lecture after master,do i still have to practise in hospital.and how is it related to community medicine?thank you for your help!
Master’s in public health is a non-clinical postgraduate degree. You will be posted to do admin work and nonclinical work after graduation. You will not be doing any clinical work in a hospital except for being a timbalan pengarah, pengarah etc. Yes, you can become a lecturer for non-clinical field.
Hi Dr. Pagalavan,
I’m interested in specializing dermatology. Do i need to sit for mrcp first? i’m also interested in family medicine. If i pass my master in family medicine, can i subspecialize in derm or do i just qualified to take a diploma in derm? Thank you.
Yes, dermatology is an internal medicine subspecialty in the UK and NZ. Aus has its own training programme separate from their college of physicians. All very competitive in those countries.
In Malaysia, only way to do dermatology is via Masters in Internal Medicine 4 yrs) and then do subspecialty training after (3 yrs i think). Theoretically, you can do MRCP and possibly get gazettement in dermatology but this will only be recognised in Malaysia because it is a shortcut route. Doing the MRCP will increase your chances of getting accepted into a Masters programme in Malaysia and allows you to work in Singapore and eventually possibly get on to their Masters programme.
If you do family medicine masters, you can do a diploma in dermatology but you cannot call yourself a dermatologist (because you aren’t one). You will then be a Family Medicine Specialist with an interest in Dermatology.
Yes, you either need to do MRCP or Master’s in medicine before sunspecialising in dermatology. You can’t become a dermatologist with Master’s in family medicine or a diploma.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
Hope you will be fine and doing great. Your blog is very much informative.
I am a IMG right now enrolled in final year MBBS and wants to do housemanship from malaysia. Will you guide me how to make it possible ?
I shall be thankful to you for this act of kindness.
Regards,
Bhunesh Kumar
As a foreigner, you will not be able to do housemanship in Malaysia unless you are married to a Malaysian. Your degree need to recognised by MMC as well.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
My degree is recognized by MMC so I do not have to worry about this. I need information regarding how to apply for this and other related info regarding this.
With lots of thanks,
Regards,
Bhunesh Kumar
Are you a Malaysian?
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
No sir I am not a Malaysian.
Regards,
Bhunesh Kumar
Then, you cannot apply for housemanship in Malaysia. Housemanship can only be done in government hospitals in Malaysia and thus as a non-citizen, you cannot work in public sector. The only exception is when you are married to a Malaysian and residing in Malaysia.
Hi Dr.Pagalavan,
I have just recently applied to RCSI in Ireland for their 6 years medicine course (including a pre-medical course).
My question is:
Is there any chance for me to continue my housemanship there in Ireland after I graduated? If not in Ireland, can I try for UK? Or you think it’s better to come back here for housemanship and try for MRCP ? What is your suggestion?
Sorry for the trouble. Thank you.
You can always try to do housemanship in Ireland and con’t to postgraduate education. No point coming back after housemanship. You can still try MRCP in Ireland/UK. Unless you are government sponsored!
Hi Dr. I found your blog is very interesting and helps me lots.
actually im a SPM leaver and interested to take medicine course, so far i’ve heard that actually housemanship training in malaysia is really terrible, so tiring and so many ‘sighs’. So, I’d like to ask you, actually hospitals in malaysia do have shift on housemanship or not? so far i’ve read and heard that the housemen do the work for 36 hours non-stop. is this true? of 36 hours non-stop is just a hyperbola for a tiring and exhausting work? thanks Dr :))
There is no such thing as easy life in medicine anyway. That goes for not only houseman but also throughout your career.
Yes, housemanship is done by shift system now but that does not mean that your workload is lower.
Yes, doctors do work 36hours straight. I work 24hours a day, 7 days a week even after 15years of service. You just have to accept it ! That is a life of a doctor.
Hi
I’m a Dr from Nigeria currently doing my one year internship.
I will like to do my residency training in pediatrics in malaysia. Please, how do I go about it?
Thank you
Malaysia do not offer residency training for foreigners. However you may try these 3 university hospitals who do offer their Master’s programme to foreigners:
University Hospital
Hospital University Kebangsaan Malaysia
Hospital University Science Malaysia.
You can visit their website.
Hi Dr.
If I want to be a medic-course-lecturer, what is the pathway to do so?
In medicine, you cannot become a lecturer with just MBBS. You need to have a postgraduate degree before even being appointed as a lecturer. Even after you become a lecturer, you are suppose to do full time clinical work on top of teaching.
Pagal
Hi Dr,
I am finishing my housemanship in a couple of months time and would like to take up psychiatry. Can you please enlightened me regarding the MRCPsych and CASC postgraduate courses for psychiatry and is it recognised in Malaysia and where can I appear for the exams.
Thank you
The only way to become a psychiatrist in Malaysia is via the local Master’s programme.
Dear Sir,
If you don’t mind then can you provide me some useful links-of both hospitals and malaysian medical council, so that I can collect more information about Housemanship in Malaysia.
I shall be thankful to you.
Regards,
Bhunesh kumar
You can contact MMC at http://www.mmc.gov.my
Hi Sir,could you tell me the pathway of becoming a skin specialist.Thanks
either complete MRCP or Master’s in Medicine, be gazetted as a specialist and then apply for 3 years subspecialist training in dermatology.
hello Dr,
i do read your blogs quite often.they’re really helpful to me.I have just graduated and i am waiting for my posting.i have heard that many HO are trying to complete the MRCP exams while they’re still in Housemanship,is it possible? another thing Dr, i want to be a cardiologist.im not quite sure of the exact pathway that i should take to achieve this.i want it to be recognised in most countries.can you please help me?
thank you.
Avis
No, you can’t complete all the parts of MRCP during housemanship. However, you can sit for the Part 1 of MRCP after 1 year of service, which in Malaysia you are still in your 2nd year of housemanship.
After MRCP/Master’s in Medicine and upon gazettement as a specialist, you need to apply to joint the cardiology training programme which is 3 years. You can read about this here :https://pagalavan.com/education/for-future-doctors-step-by-step-approach-to-subspeciality-in-medicine/.
I am sorry but I don’t think any training in Malaysia is recognised fully in any other country. It may be recognised partially for you to be appointed as registra etc. It is up to the respective country’s specialist registration body to decide.
Hi Dr, I am a medical study from one of Malaysia University who planning to work in Singapore. Since my Uni is not recognised by SMC, so instead of MRCP, MRCPCH, MRCOG and MRCS that u have already mentioned above, is there any other ways? Or can we sit for their entry exam offered by SMC?
Waiting for your advices in a grateful heart. Thank you Dr.
No other way except sitting for the SMC entry exam which is the final year exam of NUS. You can contact SMC for further info
Thank you Dr 🙂
Dear sir,
What are the benefits of doing houseman ship from Malaysia for future ? Will there be enough time during houseman ship so that I can prepare my self for MRCP and can give it or the houseman ship will be tough enough .
I will say this again: Malaysia do NOT provide housemanship for foreigners unless you are married to a Malaysian. So, no point talking about anything else.
dear sir,
may i ask what is the difference between pegawai perubatan gred ud1-1 and pegawai perubatan gred ud41? Thankyou.
It is the same except that UD1-1 is the new name for UD41 under the new salary scheme introduced this year known as SBPA.
Dear sir,
Well I have emailed to MMC about houseman-ship so lets see what they response. Sorry for asking the same question again. If anyone of mine relative is holding employment pass of Malaysia then can I apply for it on this basis ?
The reason why I am forcing this thing a lot is because recently I met a Professor of Medicine in KL at job fair and he told me that If my medical school is registered by MMC then I can apply for houseman-ship and after that I can practise Medicine in Malaysia.
Regards,
Bhunesh Kumar
I think the Professor is not aware of this issue. Is he a Malaysian professor or an expat?
At this point, there are not even enough housemanship post for Malaysian graduates.
Having a relative with employment pass makes no difference.
He is a Malaysian professor .
Then, definitely he does not know what he is talking about. Singaporeans who graduated from Monash Malaysia were rejected when they applied for housemanship here. So far the only foreigners who have been offered housemanship here are those are married to Malaysia.
Sometimes, university may take foreigners as housemen on contract basis if they are short of housemen. But that does not happen anymore as we have enough housemen now.
THis was taken from MMC website:
Provisional Registration ( sections 12 and 13)
Provisional registration allows newly qualified practitioners to undertake the general clinical training needed for full registration. A medical practitioner who is provisionally registered is entitled to work only in house officer posts in hospitals that are approved for the purpose of internship training by the Medical Qualifying Board.
Sections 12 and 13 of the Medical Act 1971 states that a person shall be entitled to be provisionally registered as a medical practitioner solely for the purpose of obtaining experience as a house officer if he holds a qualification recognized by the Council. If he holds a medical qualification which is not recognized by the Council, he has to sit and pass the Medical Qualifying Examination in accordance to Section 13(1) of the Medical Act 1971.
Note : ‘Housemanship’ or ‘Internship’ is the period of resident medical practice before full registration as stipulated in the Medical Act 1971.
Provisional registration is available only to practitioners with the following nationality, rights and qualifications:
Holding a basic medical degree from a recognised institution (as per the Second Schedule ( ) of the Medical Act 1971);
Malaysian citizens;
For non-citizens, exemption is given only to local graduates or those related or married to Malaysians.
Thanks a lot for making things much clear .
Hi Dr paga.
Thanks for your very informative blog post. Just wondering do you have any of your friends/relatives/people that you know writing blog on other careers in Malaysia eg. engineering, accounting ect,ect? Thanks in advance.
unfortunately NO but I do have friends in these fields who are doing much better and having better quality of life than me!
Hi Dr.
Is MBBS from Melaka-Manipal Medical College recognised by countries like UK and Aus if I am planning to further my postgraduate there? Currently I am doing twinning programme in India. Which entrance exam should I take and when should I take it? Thanks. I am just a first year med student and want to know more about it.
MMMC degree is not recognised by any western country or SIngapore. To go to the US, you have to sit the USMLE. Some people advice sitting for your Part 1 USMLE halfway thru med school because it is a basic sciences exam. To go to the UK, you have to sit the PLAB – but jobs are a lot harder to come by in the UK for foreigners. To go to Aus, you have to sit the AMC exam – the good jobs are getting harder to come by in Aus for foreigners. You will only know the true job situation in each country when its close to your graduation.
MMMC is not recognised elsewhere, even in India!! You need to sit and pass the entrance exam in respective countrys in order to be able to work there. However, passing these entrance exams do not guarantee you a job.
I know a few foreigner in MMMC, they are American and another one is indian with UK PR.As of this moment, the American from California are sitting for USMLE and the UK PR guy got into UK health system courtesy of his father’s help,his father work in UN.Hope this helps
After completing my medical degree in ucsi, can I apply for postgrade residency in the US, or aus, uk? How?
NOpe, your degree is not recognised in these countries. You need to sit and pass the entrance exams in these countries with no guarantee thet you will get a job/post. UCSI is not even listed in WHO list and thus you may find it difficult to even sit for these exams
Hey Dan, for you to practice in the respective country you need to be board certified.In US it’s USMLE, UK it’s PLAB and in Australia it’s AMC.
before you embark on anyone of them,you need to check whether your Uni is recognise by the boards.Once you are sure they listed your uni as eligible for their entrance exam, then you can proceed to the entrance exam.
dr…something amiss here. you don’t seem to like your career and discouraging everyone from pursuing a noble profession. seems like a case of the grass is always greener….the other side
Also, it is not where you study that matters but how you work hard and get the experience you need to serve well in the profession one has chosen. all professions have its pro and cons and some do better than others. if you hate the profession, you will definitely not perform. This seems to be your personal grievance that you creating misconception.
I don’t think you get my point. I like my profession and I am happy with what I am doing. BUT there are many people out there who are not aware of what the profession is about and what are the challenges that they will face along the way. That is the purpose of this blog!
In medicine, it is very important to study in a well established and reputable uni. It is not as simple as you think!
Dr. Pagal, are local public universities other than UM, UKM, USM considered established for my medicine study? How about other local private universities like PMC, IMU, AIMST? Which one is better, public or private? Thanks
UPM is OK. The rest are very new.
Public is definitely better in terms of facility etc especially those which have their own teaching hospital.
For private, I will go for IMU
How about you invest some time reading the posts in this blog? I am very sure you will be able to draw your own conclusions, thereafter.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I am Dr. Geeta (MBBS,DTCD and DHA) from india staying in indonesia near bandung since last one year with my family, My husband is employed in a multinational company here at purwakarta, I have total 6 years of working experience in different hospitals in india, Can you guide me how to get the opportunities in indonesia as a practioner or as faculty in the medical institutions/colleges/schools over here. So that I can remain in contact with my profession. I am eagerly waiting for your reply and advice.
Regards
Dr. Geeta Gupta
I am not very familiar with the Indonesian system. You can probably contact their Medical council
Dear Dr. Geeta Gupta,
It it possible for a foreigner to practice in Indonesia as both a medical practitioner or a doctor on specialty training (PPDS/Program Pendidikan Dokter Spesialis).
You have to contact the Indonesian Medical Council/Konsil Kedokteran Indonesia (KKI) to get an evaluation from a local University. I heard that foreigners are only allowed to work in hospitals and not open a private practice.
May I ask what your specialty is?
We have a number of Indonesians graduating from foreign universities (eg. Germany, Netherlands, Australia etc). They have to do an adaptation program of approximately one year. The adaptation program comprises of work in a hospital setting and doing a national exam like all local residents.
I hope this helps!
Stephen
All professions have its advantages and disadvantages. I truly feel you are sharing a lot of knowledge but your replies are very negative. You create fear in the minds of the young. No pain, no gain as the saying goes. If you have the brains financial support, and hard working, go for this noble profession . With this prerequisite, you think any tom, dick and harry can be a doctor???? Think again on oversupply……..the only thing we should worry about is the profession forming a cartel/monopolisation. More supply creates healthy competition.Ok no more comments for me….MUST try to read your informative blog and keep my ambition fire on………..
This is where you are wrong again! I don’t think you understand the situation. Yes, any tom, dick and harry can become a doctor nowadays! I have seen enough of them. More supply creates healthy competition? Hmmmmm, again I think you are too naive in this field. What competition are you talking about? MY replies are not nagative but the reality on the ground which you will only realise after you graduate. Truth hurts! I never discouraged anyone from doing medicine but you must be aware of what is going on!
THis might be of interest to you: http://chroniclesofaloner.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/a-letter-to-the-dg/
“You create fear in the minds of the young.”
True, but it’s important that students, especially SPM leavers know exactly what they’re getting themselves into. The reality is bleak and the truth hurts. If Dr Paga’s essays are able to weed out those who are only a) doing medicine because of their parents or b) doing it for the money, then so much the better. Also, it’s not just the “brains financial support, and hard working” it’s also about PASSION, and INTEREST. If you have none of these, chances are you’ll hate medicine. Just thinking that it’s a noble profession is not gonna cut it either. I personally know people who have regretted doing medicine.
Besides, think of the sacrifices that you have to make. And the pressure. And the bureaucracy and now, the terrible mess that we’re in, medical education-wise. Things look pretty crappy.
So, with all of the information available here, and elsewhere hopefully students will consider very carefully about their decision to take, or not take, medicine. Informed decision is always a good thing. Also, I feel that despite all the negative things going on in our healthcare system, I’m sure those who are genuinely interested will NOT be deterred.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
Is there an email address that u could publish for me to contact you. Would really appreciate your help
pagal72@gmail.com
Dear doctor,
Thank you very much for the above details and information, it make things much clearer and transparence for newcomers like me!
There’re some questions I would like to ask: will the result of my MRCPCH(Paediatric) be sent to the MMC or any other deanery? Will the result of exam affect my application for other further training? (in case I would like to apply for master programme in local university after failing the exam badly… :X ).
NO, it is up to you to send your result to MOH once you pass the exams. It will not affect your chances in getting Master’s post. BUT having Part 1 may increase your chances
Good job done considering your work load.
Hi doctor
I jus want to know regarding the noc thing if the university is recognised in Malaysia but the student didnt have a noc yet what ll happen to the student after complete the medical degree. Can the student still work ?
Can work in other country?
Once you graduate, I don’t think NOC is an issue. I have not heard anyone being rejected as long as it is a MMC recognised degree. However, due to the glut that is coming soon, newer regulations may be implemented. Thus I can’t say what will happen in the near future.
Whether you can work in other country or not depends on your degree recognition
Hello dr,
I am 34 yrs old
I have done MBBS, DCH from India.
I want to settle abroad. Time factor is crucial.
Kindly guide me, what are the exams required to pass ?
It depends on which country you want to go!
hello sir…i am still a housement..havnt done my surgery posting yet..
but i hv plan ahead and very sure about pursuing and further specialising in SURGERY..the best thing for me to do now is to sit for MRCP..
but i am kinda lost in it..i dont know how to start and how to go on about it..
regarding the books and syllabus..
plss guide me…thanks.
hope u willget back to me soon
Tqs sir
Why are you planning on sitting the MRCP if you want to do surgery?
sorry i mean MRCS…how am i suppose to go on or get started in malaysia..i know they have the exam in penang..
but wht do i need to get started….cause i am kinda lost..just need the right guidance for me to get started n further on my studies…hope Dr.Pagalavan kindly help and guide me in this..tqs alot..
kindlly looking forward for ur reply and guidance..
tqs sir
MRCS is not a postgraduate degree. Even after passing the exams, you will not be considered as a surgeon. However,it gives you a better prospect in getting into Master’s programme which is the only way to become a surgeon in Malaysia. You can also use the MRCS to go to Singapore. For curiculum etc, you can visit their website or ask people who have sat for it.
ok sir..well i know a few who hv sat for it..but they are specialist now..n thy are not much of a help actually..
i still duno where n wht books to get..n wht the syllabus are …so basically i kinda lost..
sir if u know about it or anyone..plss do let me knw n help me out in this..
tqs sir for the time..
hope to hear from u soon
Pls check their website for the syllabus
Seriously? Have you even tried looking for the syllabus or webpage? I googled MRCS and was here in 3 clicks: http://www.intercollegiatemrcs.org.uk/outside-uk
The syllabus is there.
If the people you know aren’t much help, ask them if they know anyone else who might help. Do you have classmates working in other hospitals? Do they know anyone? Do you know any of your seniors from med school who have sat the MRCS?
Have we bred a new generation of spoonfed doctors? Or is this a Gen Y / Millennial thing that I seem to be noticing?
Hello Doctor , I m a 4th year medical student from local private uni , I ve recently completed my USMLE step 1 with decent score , I would like to ask whether will i be able to come back to work if i did not complete housemanship or compulsory services? I plan to finish the remaining steps the moment i graduate and start residency ( hopefully) there asap ( probabably around 2nd-3rd posting as a HO) .
Dr P might have more insight on this but from what I understand, if you resign from govt service it is very hard to get back in the system. A friend of mine resigned after completing his HOship to go work in Aus. It didn’t work out for him so he came back home. JPA would not take him back as a govt employee because he had resigned – he could only get contract jobs. The situation might be different if you returned as a specialist – someone else might be able to shed light on this.
If you haven’t completed HOship, it might make things even more difficult because you won’t even have full registration.
It depends on when you are planning to come back. If you come back after completing your speciality, then it should not be a problem as long as your training is recognised in Malaysia. If not, you may be asked to do housemanship again(the remaining postings) as the US system is totally different. If you are a specialist and has served more than 10 years overseas, you need not do the compulsory service.
Thank you doctor
Thanks , i thought so too , i think i will consult my HOD again when i m a HO.
hey Vic,think you can do so only after 2 years of HOship.Think that gonna look good on your CV pal.to break in the middle are to dangerous, as you never know if you need to come back to malaysia to work.
Breaking means a bad record with the government.will hem in your future prospect here in malaysia
Hi Dr .Pagalavan, I writing this in response to your reply to Vic.As I understand so far, when you start housemanship there’s no backing out.you have to complete them(that’s 2 years)if you force a break in between(which most would consider as a resignation).It will leave a bad record in your work profile with the government and may jeopardise future work plan.
I assume Vic plan to sit for the exam and later on serve his HO till he get a place.
What I don’t understand from your statement is’completing of the remaining posting’.another thing there.if you force a break, chances is that you might have to start anew.Do let me know what you think.thanks
The funny thing is, the government is not even clear on all of this. Policies also keep changing. At this point of time, the only prediction we can make is that Malaysian healthcare is going downhill. Doesn’t matter whether your CV will look “good” to the government or not, or if you leave a “bad record” in the government or not.
My advise is, if you get the place to specialize in another country, go for it. If after you specialize and our government doesn’t appreciate you, then screw them and go down south to work (you know what I mean).
If you quit housemanship, you can still come back under contract basis and not permanent civil service.If not, you cannot get full registration. I have seen housemen doing this and they were told just to complete the remaining postings.However, there must be documented proof of your previous posting completion which depends on the clerk of the hospital.
icic. guess it doesn’t mean much these days as contract are being push to HOs.getting contract again after rejoining the service shouldn’t surprise you!!
Hi Dr.
I would like to ask regarding housemanship programme, I heard that housemen are immensely busy with their clinical tasks, so here, I started to ponder, is housemanship is similar to nursing programme ? When I read an article, it was about that housemen are trained to do clinical tasks such as taking blood pressure, check the patient’s progress and etc.
Thank You.
Regards,
Shah Iskandar
Everyone in every profession starts from the bottom. It is not just housemnanship is tough, the entire medical life is tough if you really into it. Of course there are many doctors nowadays who don’t care less about the patient.
Hi, I wanted to know if IMU medicine degree is recognised in any other countries other than Malaysia? If I completed IMU medicinde degree locally, can I do postgraduate elsewhere overbroad?
Sorry if I’ve asked a silly question.
No, not recognised anywhere else. If you want to do your postgrad abroad you have to sit the entrance exams of those countries. However, if you transfer to one of the partner medical schools it is equivalent to graduating from that medical school. I would opt to transfer overseas if I had the choice.
Nope, not recognised elsewhere. Unless you take their twinning programme. Since it is not recognised, you won’t be able to work or do postgraduate oversaeas.
So, erm, if I do their entrance exam, then can do my postgraduate in overbroad uni? Is it? Or can’t?
Nav has given the answer
Say ‘overseas’ or ‘abroad’. There is no such word as ‘overbroad’.
If you sit and pass their entrance exams, you may get a job. And if you do get a job, you probably have to start from the bottom. In many specialties, they will give preference to their local residents for entry into their training programme (depends on which country you go to). So yes, there is a possibility but no guarantee you can do what you want or even get a job in the first place.
So, erm, by taking their entrance exam then I can’t do postgraduate in overbroad uni? Or cannot?
Hi Dr,
Is 2-year-housemanship is included in the 5 years medical studies ?
NO. It is after the 5 years study.
Hi Dr,
Nowadays, there are too many medical students which born from IPTA and IPTS as well. In this case, there must be students that are queuing to wait for their turn in housemanship, so is this condition will increase the possibilities for them to be jobless ?
Can you explain about this circumstances clearly ?
Thanks
Regards,
Shah Iskandar
Please read all my postings under ” For Future doctors” page. I had mentioned about this many times before. Jobless doctors will become a reality.
Shah,
simple explanation
supply >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demand
done
Dear Dr, i got few doubts to clear from an expert like you, I am deeply impressed by your article above and i wanted to know your opinion,
1) I plan to sit for MRCS although i do know in malaysia MS is required, is it advisable to still go for MRCS, if yes, where in malaysia i can sit for my part A exam?
2) I still uncertain whether to go for Surgery or Orthopedic, is MRCS useful for orthopedic postgrad studies?
Your guidance is highly appreciated, thanks.
1) still worth while if you are intending to go to Singapore etc. You can sit for the exam in Malaysia, usually held at Penang medical College and Penang Hospital.
2) MRCS only gives you better prospect in getting a Master’s seat.
Hello.
I’m from private medical university under JPA. If i really want to become a surgeon, then I will have to go through the Master programme but it’s not recognised internationally, means the only route is to take MRCS and then FRCS. The problem is I’m bonded to government. It seems that a better route is to take MRCP in msia as it gives better future prospect. Does this means that I should give up my passion to becoming a surgeon? I know it’s too early for me to consider this, but i want to know how my future will be.
Thanks.
Well, it is all up to you but you can decide once you start working. Things will change along the way. I have seen enough number of students who wanted to become this and that but did something else.
Even FRCS cannot be done in Malaysia. So the only option is Master’s. MRCP is to become a physician. Whether you will get a place or not, depends on your luck.
Chill.
Just about everyone who says they want to become this or that in medschool ends up changing their minds.
You may not even enjoy your surg rotation as an intern…. the early mornings, standing for hours on end… cholecystectomy after cholecystectomy…the simple procedures you do very very repetitively as a general surgeon…
Dear Dr,
Thanx for such enlightening post. This topic is actively discussed since 2010! I wonder why this important issue about postgrads and recognitions are barely discussed elsewhere in mainstream sites.
I’m in final year medical school. I wonder how will be the route if I want to jump into management role? Will there be such hassle as pursuing specialist?
I plan to complete my HO and serve the districts for some years, but since getting into postgrad is such problematic I wonder is there is another way to climb the career path, just to keep my options open.
Thank you
Nowadays to enter management site, they would give preference for those who have Master’s in Public Health. Unless you want to serve smaller district hospitals in Sabah/Sarawak.
to dr pagalavan
i kindly request you spend few minutes on this
i finished mbbs in china,i am indian,i just want general sx,i did not clear license exam of here,i came across this mrcs recently,my university is nanjing medical university which is not listed in medical council of singapore,will i able to come to singapore after i finish mrcs 1,2,
if i come for training will i get paid, wat abt accomodation…
is there any exam to get license in singapore to atleast do house surgeon with stipend
thanks
MRCS is recognised in Singapore but you need to complete the entire course. As for training post, it depends on availability. You need to work as medical officer first.
Dear DR sir,
Thank you for the post. It is very interesting and very helpful. I’m a 3rd year med student, currently studying MBBS in India. Just entered clinical years of med degree
(1) I’m very much concern with the housemanship prog. What is your advice to me as a 3rd year med student to prep for my coming HO years?
(2) Does the country of one is having med degree done effect his/her quality?
(3) What is your opinion towards military doctors in terms of their profession and prospect?
(4) I am very much interested in Anaesthesiology. In your opinion, what are the pros n cons of being an anaesthetist? Can you tell me briefly on how to become an anaesthetist in Malaysia
1) know your basics well, work hard and willing to learn the hard way
2) not the country but the medical school
3) prospect is better in terms of getting scholarship for further studies but vacancy is limited.
4) you need Master’s or FANZA.
Thank you DR sir. By the way, you mentioned about the Masters for anaesthesiologist.
(1) Is it available in malaysia?
(2) From your experience what are the pros n cons of being an anaesthetist?
Thank you in advance and thank you for the advice. Will sure do my best in learning and in serving Malaysians. 🙂
1) Master’s programme is a Malaysian university programme.
2) you should ask an anaesthetist. I am not sure what you mean by pros and cons?
dear dr.,
i realized you have replied a great deal to many questions but i still have a few concerns. i hope this wont take up much of your time.
im a 6th (final) year medical student in brawijaya university and i have sat and passed on first try the USMLE steps 1 and 2ck (i didnt get a 99 score but nonetheless passed on first try).
1. i had a look at the format of the mrcpch questions (parts 1 n 2 written) and i feel it is much easier than the USMLE steps. one reason being because the exam duration n questions are much lesser than the USMLE (8 hrs for step 1 and 9 hrs for step 2ck). WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON THAT?
2. you mentioned that to sit for the mrcpch exam i need an mrcpch holder to verify me? how do i get an mrcpch holder to do that for me? i was under the impression we jst need to apply online for the exams n pay up (much like the USMLE exam)
3. i start my HO this yr sometimes in oct/nov (depending on how fast i get in) most probably in the klang valley (my hometown), with the verification by an mrcpch holder, will i be able to sit for the exam say in Jan 2014? (i say Jan 2014 because i think i read that the part 1 is only offered in jan n june. I could be highly wrong).
4. for my part 3 mrcpch, how long does training take? can i do it in the UK? is applying for a place in UK difficult?
thank u so much for ur help. if i could reciprocate in any way, perhaps by answering some usmle steps questions for other readers, id be happy to.
have a great day everyone.
aim for excellence! 🙂
1)Firstly, you are talking about 2 different exams. USMLE is a basic licensing exam in US where as MRCPCH is an entry exam for paediatric specialisation.
2) MRCPCH is a written exam and not online exam. You need to be in service in order to sit for MRCPCH, , meaning you need to complete your housemanship to sit for Part 1.
3) as I said, you need to be in service for 1 year post graduation to sit for MRCPCH. YOu need to get someone in your hospital who has MRCPCH to be your proposer.
4) to complete the entire MRCPCH will usually take about 3-4 years after which you need to undergo 18 months of gazettement to become a specialist. NO, it is not easy to get a post in UK anymore due to their immigration law. You need to sit and pass the PLAB exam in order to be able to work in UK.
Hi dr pagalavan,
Yes ure ryte, usmle step 1 is basic sciences. But from d websites that offer mrcpch part 1 exam practice, they have said its much like usmle step 2ck which is not basic sciences but clinical knowledge. I wouldn’t know yet but I was thinking of purchasing the books they mentioned to start studying. Tht would be a good idea ryte? Considering ill start my HO soon.
And about the plab, on a previous comment, u mentioned that getting into UK d student wiill need usmle (or were u refering for getting into the USA, in which case I’m confused n sorry)
Also, I read on the plab official website that if we have more than 1 year working experience we r exempted from d exam. Is tht true?
I hve a friend who is interested in mrcpophth. What kind of adequate training would tht include in a general hospital? I’m so blur… Sorry… All this while concentrated on usmle.
And another questions, the part 3 training, how long does it take?
Ok that will do for now. Thank u so much for year prompt reply!!! Ure awesome. 🙂
You can always buy books and start preparing for Part 1 when you are a housemen. Always remember that things can change when you start working! You may begin to like some other field!
PLAB is for UK, USMLE is for US.
All graduates from outside UK will have to sit for PLAB exam.
ONly certain hospitals in Malaysia are accrediatetd training centre for FRCS opthalmology
As I said, 3-4 years
hi dr pagalavan,
i replied ur to ur reply on my blackberry but i dont see it here so ill reply again.
yes ure ryte usmle step 1 is basic sciences for entry into USA but step 2ck is clinical knowledge and comprises of the main 4 subjects, int.med, peds, obgyn and surgery. it has a bit of ophth, ent, neuro, dermatology etc as well. but of course, the mrcpch is much specialized. there is this website which offers qbanks for mrcpch and some have commented there that the part 1 is much similar to usmle step2ck. also if we have a good grasp on our basic sciences we are ok.
how long did it take u to prepare for ur mrcp if u dont mind me asking? many doctors from india (from another blog) said they spent from 3 to 6 mths studying (while working as they too have to do one year of working before sitting for the exam). also, do u think doing questions from qbanks will help?
from my experience with the usmle steps, step 1 took about a year to study with attempting about 8000 questions (practice questions). and step 2 took about 6 to 8 mths (took me a year as well because out clinicals in indonesia requires us to spend about 65 to 84 hours a week on average) plus about 6000 questions (practice tests) to finally get the grasp of it. i do understand that for mrcpch WORKING is very important because without experience theory has no value alone, but then what advice can u give us on method of studying. do u think i should start now while im still a student? there is this book mrcpch part 1 for sale at amazon that most indian doctors use.
and for part 3 training (say i do it in singapore) how long does it take? a year perhaps?
thank u very much for your prompt reply. i appreciate it very much. not many ppl actually take the time off to help newbies. 🙂
God bless u dr. P
For Part 1, you need about 6-8 months of preparation. To complete all, about 3-4 years.
For MRCPCH, you can do everything in Malaysia. Only then you can go to Singapore. It does NOT make you a specialist. It allows you to enter speciality training programme.
http://pagalavan.com
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oh i c… so part 3 exam itself takes 3 to 4 yrs to complete? that is so long. in USA the entire residency program takes 3 to 4 years. so this means if i choose to go the mrcpch way ill have to spend 3 to 4 yrs in singapore just for step 3 training?
MRCP is not a specialist exam. It is an entrance exam for speciality training. Residency training in US is totally a different system
We follow UK based system which is a longer pathway compared to US system.
dear dr P
perhaps we are both not on the same page.
yes i know USMLE is for US (i took the steps) but im confused when u said it takes 3 to 4 yrs training for part 3 mrcpch. here’s ur blog comment from the top:
However, Singapore does recognise MRCP, MRCPCH, MRCOG and MRCS. Thus, if you have any of these degrees, it supersedes the undergraduate degree and you should be able to get a job in Singapore. Singapore is also a recognised centre for MRCS Part 3 training, which you can’t do in Malaysia.
So, if you have MRCS Part 1 & 2, you can go to Singapore to finish your MRCS training and sit for the Part 3.
my question is regarding the last sentence. that part 3 exam with training. that takes how long? 3 to 4 yrs just for part 3?
thanks again in advance for your time. also your study time table from your time how u did it (considering there wasnt much available websites to download study material off from n u must have gone through the thickest books in the library n studied a great deal to have even gotten ur frcp and subspecialization) NOT EASY!!
I think you are totally confused. MRCS, MRCP and MRCPCH are 3 different exams and specialisation.
All will take about 3-4 years of training. Please also read my article on “step by step approach for subspecialisation in internal medicine” under ” for future doctors” page
http://pagalavan.com
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and you’re right, i might like another field. hmm.. but i suppose the extra studying couldn’t hurt. i jumped from neurology to anesthesiology to internal medicine (but after spending 3 mths for out internal medicine rotation here during clinicals, no no… im not into it too much) but then with pediatrics its not that i adore children (which i do) but every test or practice test i take, i seem to grasp it better. I can understand peds and psychiatry too well.
sorry im harping on my trivial dilemma, but thanks again for the replies. 🙂
OMG ure totally ryte!! i just saw, u mentioned MRCS not MRCPCH!!!! thats where i was confused. like why would i need training in singapore?!!
ok sorry for all that confusion.
but i got the replies i wanted. will ask my friend to check on the hospitals for her ophth but i think ill continue with studying for mrcpch and get my HO out of the way first for adequate experience. 🙂
have a nice day! n thx again
dun mind the abbreviations (jargon).
Dear DR Pagalavan,
if Malaysian students that study medical in INDONESIA, when they graduate do they have to do houseman ship?
YES
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I’m currently doing my housemanship (4th posting) and really interested in Radiology field. so what will be my next step? thank you in advance.
Either Master’s in Radiology or FRCR. FRCR can be sat in Singapore but has 4 parts. For Master;s you need to wait. The current waiting time is 3 years after housemanship. The Programme is a 4 year programme.
Hi Dr,
I read your posts regarding the doctors in Malaysia is just a glut and whatsoever, but what I know, in Malaysia the ratio of doctor to the patient is approximately 1:1100, so how come you can say that doctors in Malaysia is too many ? I’d rather think that if the doctor are said to be immensely exhausted, no much time for themselves, don’t even have a good time to sleep, so this kind of situation, enough to tell me that the number of doctor in Malaysia not achieve it’s target yet, perhaps to cut down the ratio mentioned.
Regards.
Thanks
I think you are living in your own world. I am talking about what is going to happen in the next few years. Your ratio is wrong to begin with. The Doctor: population ratio has already reach 1: 900 in 2010. Please read this: https://pagalavan.com/education/for-future-doctors-the-standards-of-medical-education-in-malaysia-and-its-acceptability-by-david-quek/ which was written by Dr David Quek who is a member of MMC and past president of MMA. The article was very clear on the current status. Being a MMC member, he knows exacly what is going on since MMC keeps the actual number of doctors. The government itself has officially announced that they will achieve a ratio of 1: 600 by 2016 and 1: 400 by 2020. Based on the number of medical schools now ( 36 in total), we may achieve the ratio much faster. Remember, 50% of these medical schools are yet to produce graduates. From now onwards, all these medical schools will gradually start to produce graduates, reaching their peak by 2016!! Actually, we do have enough doctors but the main problem is maldistribution.
Now, coming to your next question. Firstly, being a doctor itself is stressfull and exhaustive no matter whether you have enough doctors or not. Secondly, the reason why you see the government clinics and hospitals loaded with patients is because of our healthcare system. For example, you still see government hospitals and clinics in Klang Valley packed with patients but the doctor: population ratio has already reached 1: 400!! THis is because, due to lack of intergration of public and private healthcare system, only 20% of the population is going to private sector. The balance go to public hospitals and clinics. These are the problems and it is more complex than you think. If you add up all the doctors and number of beds from both private and public, we have enough doctors and beds!
I have served 4 years as an anaesthesia MO in Malaysia. To answer A student’s query, here are some pro’s and con’s as anaesthetist.
Pro’s:
– handling ciritically ill patients in the operation theatre and intensive care is an adrenaline charged and highly stimulating environment.
– plenty of interesting procedures and skills which you will realise is an art to perfect with time.
– you learn that team work matters a whole lot in anaesthesia.
– it is rewarding to provide excellent acute pain relieve to patients.
– if you love physiology, pharmacology and physics, anaesthesiology may be a good choice for you.
Con’s
– long working hours ( most on calls means virtually no sleep for the next 24 to 36 hours depending on how bad your call is, may range from 6 to 10 calls a month)
– because of constant sleep deprivation and deranged sleep wake cycle, you may end up grouchy and quite unpleasant when you return home to family.
-Yes, you will feel zombified and groggy by the end of the day, especially after exposure to anaesthetic gases in OT.
– be ready to face litigation which may drag throughout your career.
– if you have children, please make sure there is a very strong family support, Otherwise, it is not uncommon to have candidates pull out of masters programme or fail multiple times. ( thus having to repay alot of money )
– you need to learn to face death and break bad news nearly on a daily basis depending again on which hospital you work in.
hope this helps those students or HOs who have an interest in anathesiology.
All’s said and done, You need to experience it first hand , to love it or hate it.
private medical student in Malaysia really not recognized by Singapore? What i should do if i wanna work in Singapore with the certificate i have? Taking an exam?
need to sit and pass their entrance exam which is the final year exam of NUS. Contact SMC for further info
Hi,
i aprreciate you higlighting the problems in our country. I have been reading your blog for quite some time. I would like to know what are the best medical schools in our country right now? i have the passion to be a doctor..but accoring to all your posts doctors won’t have a job in the near future. should i pursue it?
Whether you should pursue or not, it’s up to you. I am talking about the reality. If youy are really interested in medicine for what it does then nothing can stop you. BUT just like any other job in the market, it is not guaranteed. The best will still be UM, UKM and USM. For ptivate : IMU, MOnash, MMC, PMC etc. However, you must understand about the degree recognition issue.
Dear Doctor,
I actually found out your blog by chance and I found it quite interesting. Thank you for highlighting and share the issues about current health care system in Malaysia. I have a few queries:
1. I was awarded a MBBS degree from UK and also I have achieved MRCP (UK). I will be moving back to Malaysia soon (may be this year due to personal reason). To my knowledge, in order for one to be registered with MMC one need to have a job. Do I apply for a job via SPA or apply directly to MOH?
2. I will be completing my core medical training in UK by July this year. If I would have decided to stay, I would proceed to higher specialist training. My interest is in cardiology medicine. May I know how to get a training post in cardiology in Malaysia and what is the process?
3. My wife is a qualified GP from UK. Is MRCGP recognised in Malaysia or she has to do a master degree in Family medicine?
4. I came across 1care but do not much about it because I am currently not living in Malaysia. What is 1care?
Many thanks!
1) via SPA as well as MOH
2) Firstly , you need to get a job and gazetted as a specialist by MOH. After which you need to apply for a cardiology subspecialist post via the MOH. The waiting period can be 1-2 years.
3) please check http://www.nsr.gov.my. It is recognised but need to fullfill certain criteria.
4) Wait for it’s implementation in 2014. No one knows for sure.
Dear Dr,
Thank you for your reply. Very helpful information. Much appreciated.
Click to access malaysian-healthcare-a-critical-look.pdf
The above article is exactly what is happening in the UK and what will happen to Malaysia Healthcare if 1Care is implemented.
In the UK, based on current figures and if current trend continues, healthcare expenditure will take up 75% of GDP by 2050. This system is already proven to be unsustainable.
The only people who will benefit from the 1Care system are those will cables to take the pie from the privatisation process. Those that were given a privatisation share will ultimately push up prices as reflected in Dr Hsu’s paper. Based on the Malaysian experience, where each bottle of 500ml water cost MAS RM4.50, it is very possible that each strip of Paracetamol will cost the 1Care fund RM10.00. If that is the case, everybody can do the maths how much it will cost the average Joe to seek healthcare.
Another great move by our politicians and those with cables to them to rob the citizens of Malaysia. Well done!
Dear Dr,
Thank you for the reply. What about NUS? The degree from local universities, are they recognised anywhere else in the world?
NUS is good but difficult to get in. UM and UKM recognised in Singapore. Monash in Aust/NZ. Other than that none unless you take twinning programme offered by IMU, PMC.
Thank you. Appreciate the reply.
Dear Dr,
I have found your blog via googling for more info about MRCP (UK). I have recently graduated with MBBS from Australia. I have rejected job offers in Australia to return to work in Malaysia due to personal reason. I do not have any idea about specialty training in Malaysia.
Actually, I’m interested in general medicine, especially dermatology and gastroenterology. Can you shed some light on this?
Thanks
Please read all my blog postings under “for future doctors” https://pagalavan.com/2011/03/19/for-future-doctors-step-by-step-approach-to-subspeciality-in-medicine/
hi,
i agree with what you but got quatity but no quality doctors…. i feel so sad for all my patients. all these problems are because of our so Smart govern…. all of medical school but product lousy so what for and eventually later overload with rubbish and fighting for post grad program me. so sad for all of us .
sorry just noticed so much typo …
Hi . My name is Madan. I have started reading some your informative posts and have some questions. I am currently doing my Canadian Pre-U with my aim to study Medicine later on. Recently my parents have been made aware of this Medical Institution: “Davao Medical School Foundation” and are interested in putting me in as soon as possible. However, after some research on the net, I have found some topics really confusing to comprehend. Such as, Once I have completed my course of MD, am I required to complete an examination in Malaysia even if this course is MQA(MALAYSIAN QUALIFICATIONS AGENCY) approved? Once I have, what happens if I fail? My dream is to practice in the UK. But I cannot understand the procedures involved. If it is WHO recognised does it mean that I can practice anywhere as long as I pass an exam? OR is it that where ever I go I have to pass an exam? Which is better MBBS or MD? I am really in a dilemma with my parents urging me to make my decision as soon as possible. I would really love some help from anyone in this post as well. Thanks.
Kindest regards,
Madan.
Davao is in the Philippines. No Filipino medical school is recognised in Malaysia, which means you will have to sit the Medical Qualifying Exam (MQE). Most people who sit this exam do not pass it – I don’t know why but I have a few guesses.
The agency that recognises medical degrees is the Malaysian Medical Council.
Any medical school can be WHO recognised. This allows you to sit the PLAB if you want to work in the UK. However, passing the PLAB is no guarantee that you will get a job there. Even if you do get a job, it is extremely unlikely that you will be offered a training post.
If your dream is to practice in the UK, get a British degree. Since you are already doing CPU, get into IMU and transfer to one of the UK universities.
An MD in the US (and probably Philippines) refers to their medical degree, which is always a postgraduate qualification. In the Commonwealth, an MD is a postgraduate research degree (like a PhD). Except in Malaysia where universities like UKM can ‘tumpang glamour’ and confer an MD with their undergraduate medical degrees. Malaysia boleh!
In short, it doesn’t matter whether your medical degree is an MD, MBBS or MBChB. As long as it is recognised by the country you want to work in.
Hi Nav, thanks so much for replying to my plea for help. I somewhat understand what you mean. So why do you think they do not pass the MQE? Besides that, I am currently in no more a situation to decide among the expenses of over RM500k for IMU plus additional fees for a twinning programme. I wanted to do that but now my financial muscle has been drastically reduced. That’s why I am considering countries such as the Philippines with no disrespect to them. Do you have any other suggestions for me. I would really appreciate it, if there was some other way for me to do this. Let’s say I finished my MD somewhere in Asia, and then want to do my specialization in the UK is that possible? If so will getting a job there be easier? So what does the PLAB require? Also, what about studying in Russia, at Kursk? Does that entitle the student to work in Europe? Does the student still have to do the MQE if he/she intends to work in Malaysia? Furthermore, if studying in Russia, will the student need to do his specialization there or else where. Basically? Does studying a specialized course at the country you intend to work in entitle you a better chance to actually practice there? Thanks.
With regards,
Madan.
You should spend more time reading my posts under For Future Doctors series, including the comments. Most of these questions have been asked and answered before. Anyway:
1) MQA/WHO recognition does NOT mean anything. Whichever degree which is not recognised by MMC as in this list http://mmc.gov.my/v1/docs/Jadual%20Kedua%2011-12-09.pdf will have to sit for the MQE exams. The passing rate is way below 50%.
2) MD/MBBS or whatever does not make any difference.
3) Don’t fall to all the rhetorics given by agents who are out to suck your money. I know there are now many agents who are promoting universities in Phillipines, China, Maldives, Sulawesi etc etc which is not recognised by MMC. They use the so called WHO recognition to cheat the parents by claiming that it is internationally recognised!
4) It is now very difficult to work in UK. This is due to their immigration laws which will not give you a work permit for overseas graduates.So, even if you pass the PLAB exams, it is VERY UNLIKELY for you to get a job. Your chances will be better if you garduate from a Uni in UK. Even then, you may just get housemanship post after which you may need to come back.
5) Not all russian universities are recognised in Malaysia. You can check the list given above.
6) I think you got no idea about medical specialisation. Pls read my articles. You CAN”T do specialisation immediately after graduation! Post graduate education in medicine is NOT a full time course. You study while you work full time. So, in order for you to do specialisation, you must first get a job and after completing your housemanship etc, apply for specialist training post. There is no guarantee that you will get a post.
Hi doctor, thanks a lot for responding. I do understand that I can only even begin to think about post graduate studies after my housemanship. It’s just that I’m scrambling to write my questions as I’ve become really dull and nervous about the prospect of my dream of working in the UK. I know I have the passion and drive to pull through wtv I have to face. But the possibility that even if I do that I might not get a chance to help others, for the passion I chose medicine in the first place scares me. I am really confused and worried. I just got home from college and have read most of your articles. And I must say, it’s getting me even more worried. I am only 17 and thought age would not matter, but now it looks like I will require a great sense of not only hard work but maturity. My mother herself was an eye-specialist who graduated from India, but was not recognised here so she is now working as a GP in primary health care. I’ve seen her having to do this when there was no great rise in the number of doctors, but now the rise as well, do you think I will be able to get a job? Plus I did my IGCSE’s and do not have SPM Malay, but am doing MPW Malay in college as it’s compulsory for non SPM-candidates. I realised you earlier answered a question saying Malay is required for civil service, so will this be sufficient or what will I have to do? I am sorry for bothering you with so many questions doctor, it’s just that I am in this hurried situation and I knew it was a long difficult path ahead of me, and am willing to do it but as you said at the end of the day, you are going to need the money. Would you recommend to work elsewhere? If housemanship is offered overseas I am no longer required to do it in Malaysia right? Thanks.
Kindest Regards,
Madan.
you can forget about working in UK unless you graduate from a medical school in UK. Even if you do your housemanship overseas, it is up to MMC to decide whether you can be exempted from housemanship in Malaysia. Most of the time, you still need to complete whatever postings that you did not do overseas which is required over here.
As for jobless, situation, I think I have written enough about it. I will be writing a new post soon on the current and future situation. Yes, you need a credit in Malay to be employed in government sector. If not, you can only work on contract basis.
Thanks again doctor. So basically, what IF I finish my MD or MBBS overseas and decide to work there and Never opt to practice in M’sia will I be free of housemanship in M’sia? So what about twinning programmes with UK universities, I’ve heard about Newcastle University in Johor if I am not mistaken? Will that offer me somewhat a better chance? Besides the UK, would you recommend any other country to work in? I have also read your say on Dentistry through earlier questions, so would you say dentistry is much more open now then being a normal GP? What would your estimated cost be if anyone would like to open up a dental clinic, with equipment and stuff? Thanks once again, you have really enlightened me today.
Best Regards,
Madan.
Depends on your years of experience, degree recognition etc. IMU offers twinning programmes with UK universities but there is no guarantee that the particular university will accept you. It will be a better option if you can graduate in UK from any one of these universities. Newcastle universit Malaysia is a 5 year programme in Malaysia. You will be considered as an overseas graduate and work permit limitation in UK applies eventhough you may not need to sit for PLAB if GMC recognises the degree. Please read this http://www.gmc-uk.org/09___Newcastle_Medical_School_in_Malaysia___Quality_Assurance___Annex_A_B.pdf_46442981.pdf page 9 and 56.
Other countries will be Australia, Singapore and N Zealand. I can’t say what will happen to dentistry in 5 years time, and the cost of setting up a dental clinic will also be different in 7 years time.
Alright, thanks a lot doctor. I really appreciate your advice. Thanks, once again. Take care. Cheers!
Best Regards,
Madan.
Hi Dr,
In your point of view, what are the advantages and disadvantages of studying medic locally ?
I think I have answered this questions in my articles. Pls read under “For Future Doctors” series. Basically NO recognition elsewhere.
Doctor, how are you? I’ve just been thinking.. What about practising Dental in the UK? The chances and procedure? And if I finish my dental locally? And I want to work elsewhere? Lets say, Australia? Would it be the same procedure? As well as, which college would be better for private institutions? Also is maths necessary to join an MBBS or MD program anywhere? Or will the 3 science subjects suffice.
The immigration laws applies to everyone who wants to work in UK. You will be the last choice.
Australia have their own regulation for dentist registration, almost similar to medicine . You can read here http://www.adc.org.au/dentistryinaust.html
Whether Maths is necessary or not depends on the college.
It seems like you are planning to migrate! If so, pls choose another field other than medicine or dentistry. I know of many accountants, IT engineers, psychologist etc who can easily find a job in Australia as not much regulations to follow.
Doctor, thanks for your advice. I am sorry to say that other fields are far beyond me now. I grew up aspiring to be like my mother and now I have come to dreaming of succeeding in the UK. As long as I can keep trying I guess, I won’t stop. Hopefully, I have what it takes to make it. Thanks for the advice, if you have any recommendations on which field would be more suitable in Malaysia, UK or Australia I would appreciate it. Thank you.
Dear Dr Pagalavan
I’m a 5th year medical student, going to sit for my final exam in 3 weeks. I’m interested in O&G, and i’m planning to take MRCOG.
I understand that I need to have 4 years of accredited O&G training before i’m eligible to sit for the Part 2 exam. May I know which hospitals in Malaysia provide such training?
Besides, I need to apply for Housemanship soon. I plan to work in HKL, but many doctors that I’ve met said that it is not a good hospital for Housemanship training? What is your opinion on this?
Thanks for the advice.
Any hospital will do for MRCOG as long as there is someone with MRCOG in the hospital to sign you up.
With the glut of housemen now, whether you will get where you request is going to be difficult to say. HKL is busy but you will learn. It does not matter where you do your HO as long as you are willing to learn
i am a student just finished studying in Indonesia university and now waiting for my posting to be ho. if i were to work in india,how is the process? and if i plan to do specialisation in india,what’s the steps and how am i able to get scholarship in india as i plan to stay and work there.
Are you an Indian citizen? You can contact Indian Medical Council for further info. Your degrre must be recognised by them.
Hello
Very informative website. I am an UK national married to a Malaysian, we are both doctors about to finish our specialist training programs in Pathology and Radiology respectively. I am wondering as a spouse of a Malaysian will I be able to work in public and private hospitals as a consultant? Have you heard of any non-Malaysian consultants working in the big cities?
Yes, you can since you are married to a local. However you need to apply to MMC and NSR for registration and follow their instruction. Whether they will allow you to work in private depends on MMC.
Hello Dr Pagavalan, thanks a lot for your useful information. I am a malaysian med student about to graduate in a year and i want to ask you a few questions. What status/effects will I be entitled to upon completion of my 2 years housemanship. Does my successful completion of housemanship automatically allow me to register me as a fully licensed doctor capable without supervision under the MMC? What about the 2 years compulsory government service? What happens if I choose to delay/postpone the compulsory service after my housemanship for migratory reasons? Will I still be able to return to work in Malaysia in case I fail to settle overseas? You also said that we should complete the HO no matter what. Thanks.
After 2 years of HO, you can be fully registered with MMC. The compulsory service is still inforce and thus you still have to complete your 2 years MO before you resign. However, it may be removed soon. If you leave after housemenship and return within 10 years, you still need to complete the 2 years compulsory service if the rule is still existant.I doubt the rule will exist by then.
hi sir,
i jus want know what will happen to those who studying medicine in a recognised university in indonesia without a NOC . after they finish their medical degree , can they work in msia. is there any exam for them. can they work in any other country.
As far as I know, as long as your degree is recognised by MMC, you should be able to work. Whether NOC will play a role or not, I got no idea but looking at the situation of oversupply of doctors in near future, things might change! Whether you can work in other country depends on your degree recognition.
Greetings Doctor.
I am a Singaporean currently studying in Mahsa University College. My college told me that I would be able to do my housemanship in Malaysia after my degree.Is this true?based on your previous posts you mentioned that foreginers are not allowed to do their degree in Malaysia. Thank You.
Yes, foreigners are NOT entitled to do housemanship in Malaysia unless you are married to a Malaysian. This is because you need to join our civil service to do HO and this is only for citizens. PRs can get housemanship on contract basis.In fact with the oversupply of doctors hitting Malaysia soon, the situation will only get worst as even Malaysians need to wait for a post. MOH is struggling to place their own citizens for housemanship, what more a foreign citizen. The government is not obliged to provide job for foreigners. Furthermore, since MAHSA is not recognised elsewhere, you will get stuck for good. Forget what the college tells you, they are in for the money.
Even if you do get a HO post, you will need to apply for a MO post after that, on contract basis. Foreigners are also not entitled for Master’s programme except for some post allocated by the university hospitals. I would suggest you sit for Singapore entrance exam and work in singapore.
Hi doctor.
I am currently considering the prospects of a medical degree in Melaka Manipal. Would it be a good idea to go there doctor. Please advice me.Thank you.
I received this email 2 weeks ago which is self explanatory:
hello doctor.. my name is xxx and i am currently going to begin my 2nd year in melaka manipal medical college.. i need to seek some information from u… i am really interested in becoming a doctor. it has been my childhood dream to walk around with a stethoscope around my neck..but im now not really confident or happy with this medical school .. as time passes by, i begin to realise that quality of the medical education here is getting from bad to worse,… im very afraid that it might leave an impact on my future as a doctor.i thought of quitting manipal to get into another medical school.. i am quite interested with duke nus medical school.. but in order to get there, i must do an undergraduate degree..and im not so sure of the chances of getting into that school once im done with a degree or so…. doctor, please do advice me on what to do as im vey confused,….thank u very much..
Hello dr.
I just got my spm result which is straight A’s and intend to do medicine in kursk,russia. But after reading your post and the above comments, i am now very confused whether pursuing medicine is a wise decision.I have always dreamt to be a doctor but now I am worried that my dream will just remain as a dream.In your opinion, what should I do? Do you think I should rather take up some other courses? What about stpm and matriculation?
I would rather do matriculation or STPM and try my luck at local public universities.
Thank you for replying.What do you think about msu?
Can’t say much as they have not produced grads yet.
respected dr.pagalavan,
i am a mbbs graduate from india.interested in doing MRCPCH.
1)i want to know if MRCPCH is recognized in india?
2)is it very difficult to further specialize(neonatology,etc) in the UK after obtaining MRCPCH from india?
3)what is the earning potential & job opportunity of a candidate with just MRCPCH in the UK?
4)can i get fellowships directly in the US,australia or NZ after getting MRCPCH?
5)will i be exempted from taking USMLE step1,step2 CS and step2 CK if i have MRCPCH?i.e., can i directly do a pediatric residency in the US and take up my step3?
Are you a Malaysian?
1) I think it does
2) Obtaining MRCPCH does not guarantee you a job in UK. Immigration law applies and with the current scenario, overseas graduates are very unlikely to get a job in UK
3) as above
4) NO
5) No.
Dear Doctor,
I am from India ,Graduated from Yerevan State Medical University Armenia in 2009.
I qualified USMLE STEP1 AND STEP 2CK with 99 percentile,i had uploaded my CV on monstergulf.com and before 1 months i got an invitaion email from City Specialist Medical Hospital413-415 jalan pudu, Kula Lumpur,i emailed them my recent CV.Today i got an appointment letter from the same hospital sayin that my job is confirmed and i must submit affidivit of gaurantee and letter of attestation for which i must pay some amount.
I wanted to confirm wether this email is a scam,what are the eligibility criteron to work as a resident in Malaysia.
I will highly appreciate your response
In order for you to work in Malaysia, your degree must be recognised in Malaysia. As far as I know, no degree from Armenia is recognised by Malaysian Medical council http://mmc.gov.my/v1/docs/Jadual%20Kedua%2011-12-09.pdf. So, you will not be able to work in Malaysia.
Hi Dr Pagalavan, i just graduated and going to work as HO soon… i am interested in Obstetrics and gynaecology and plan to sit for MRCOG in the future… Can i sit for part 1 after 1 year of graduation ? if i manage to clear part 1 during my housemanship, what will happen if i dont get place for OBG when i become MO? can i use that as reason to be OBG Medical officer? thank you 🙂
Yes, you can sit for Part 1. With the current glut, it will be very difficult for me to say whether you can remain in the same hospital and go to O&G department. The best is for you to be close with the O&G department head when you do your rotation in O&G and ask for his help.
However, I feel that most likely you will be sent to rural postings for 1 year before coming back to O&G department on request.
thank you for the reply…sorry…i have 1 more question…. after passing MRCOG exam, can i do sub-specialisation in malaysia? or i must go to UK?
can be done in Malaysia
hi dr pagalavan wanted to know post mrcp, once u have pass. What are the options of going to singapore. how do we need to apply ? is it true if you just do a subspezialisation diploma in singapore you can practise as a subspeacialist in malaysian private hospitals ?
You need to apply to the respective hospitals. Diploma does not mean anything. In singapore you need to undergo full fellowship training in order to become a subspecialist. No such thing as diploma.
It use to happen long time ago when private hospitals can claim wahtever they want but now, you need to register with specialist register first eventhough it is not compulsory yet.
respected dr.pagalavan,
i am an indian.i could not find any other blog which is so honest,accurate and where reply is given so promptly.
i was unable to get a merit MD pediatric seat in india.hence planning to take up MRCPCH.so,after passing MRCPCH,i can practice as a pediatrician in india,& if god willing in the UK.i was pretty sure that i would be exempt from taking step1 &2 exams of US & australia.anyways thanks for your advice
Greetings Doctor.
I’m planning to enrol at masterskill for MBBS course. Since there are no fresh grads yet and still not recognised by the gov, what are the risks am I taking?
Very risky. It is a twinning programme.
Can you explain more?
Masterskills run a twinning programme with a university in India. They did not mention which uni in their website and thus I can’t comment. If this university is already recognised in Malaysia by MMC then there should not be any problem.
Dear Dr, bless you for what you are doing. Keep up this fantastic work. I am in the process of enrolling my daughter in an MBBS program here. My husband and I (and so does she) want her to one day be able to migrate to Australia. If she does her MBBS in Monash Malaysia, will she be able to hopefully intern in Australia without too much of a hassle. What will her chances be to intern and work and specialise in Australia. What would be required to make this possible. Thank you
At this moment, Monash Malaysia is recognised in Australia & NZealanad. Reaccreditation will occur next year. You must understand that Australia is also having difficulty in placing graduates for their internship post. Very likely in the next few years, there may not be enough post for foreigners. However, it is still worth trying, if not N.Zealand may be an option.
Thank you so much for your most valued comment.
Dr, I have one other question. What do you think of Newcastle University and the chances of MBBS graduates in Australia and New Zealand? Thank you
Forget about Newcastle Malaysia. You can’t go anywhere with it. Your chances to get an internship post will be better if you graduate from Australia or New Zealand.
dear dr. You have solve a lot of people problems and headache and i thank u for that. i have cleared my mrcp part 1 and just sat for part 2. I’m working in a very busy hospital in malaysia. There is a lot of bias against me in that hospital. Do u suggest i stick on till i complete my paces and once i complete my paces do u suggest i apply to singapore to do subspeaciality. I heard its getting more difficult to enter singapore as they are changing their system. Is that true ? how much does a medical officer /speacialist earn in singapore per month minus tax ?
I would suggest to con’t in same hospital. Yes, singapore has changed to residency system since 2011. After MRCP you can apply for a registra post in Singapore. Soemtimes you may just get a MO post for 1-2 years before entering a subspeciality training post. MOs get about 5-6K singapore dollar.
doc. How about AIMST ? and any other medical school you recommend? I am in troble choosing school…
AIMST is fairly ok.
Sorry, another question. If compare with Melaka Manipal, what do you think?
Both have produced graduates. Both draw their lecturers mainly from India. Both are not recognised anywhere else in the world. Both have strong political connections.
MMMC do their pre-clinicals in India whereas AIMST is all in Malaysia.
Ask the same question 10 different people and you will probably get 50-50 responses either way.
nothing to compare!
I graduated 8 years ago with MBBS from Nigeria and have been lecturing in Human Physiolgy for 6 years. Is there any university than can offer me PhD with my MBBS degree?
You would need to contact the relevant department at the university. Any application would be considered on a case-by-case basis. Very few universities here are equipped to offer a PhD in physiology:
University Malaya
Universiti Sains Malaysia
University Kebangsaan Malaysia
I am not sure whether your degree is recognised in Malaysia. You can try our local universities for PhD course, like University Malaya, University Kebangsaan Malaysia and University Science Malaysia. Check their website
Hi Dr,
I would like to seek your advice in regards of my career to become a dermatologist. I’ve completed my MD in Ukraine, completed my housemen ship 2 years in Malaysia GH, was MO in A&E for 10 months and finally with my resistance I’m able to join the Dermato department & working as MO for 3 months.
Looking into the statements of yours in this blog;
1. Do I need to do MRCP? Which is obviously fine tuned by MOH to become a specialist now with additonal trainings upon completion?
2. Do I need to do MMED? Which is apparently not recognise in oversees and limitation to enrol in Msia uni?
3. 1st Can I do Dip Derm in Bangkok? Followed by MRCP or MMED later?
Which is better approach?
Highly ambitious to become a dermatologist but clueless.
Thanks!
Either MRCP or MMed will do. For MRCP, you have to wait 18 months for gazettement and another 2 years before applying for dermatology sub training of 3 years. For Master’s it will be 6 months gazett and 2 years waiting.
No point doing Diploma unless it is for your own satisfaction as it does not make you a skin specialist
Hi doc.
I am SPM leaver. I am planning to study medicine and I would like to seek your advice. Which medical school in Malaysia is recognised intenationally? But if I go for a school that is only recognised in Malaysia, will that affect my chance to get postgraduate studies to become a specialist?
UM and UKM are recognised by Singapore
Monash is recognised by Aus/NZ
Penang Medical College is recognised by Ireland.
IMU twinning degrees are recognised as per whichever medical school you transfer to
No medical school in Malaysia is recognised internationally.
If you attend a medical school that is recognised only in Malaysia, it will not affect your chances to get into a local Masters programme to do postgraduate specialisation. It will however prevent you from specialising overseas, unless you take various other exams (which make you eligible to work in a certain country, but does not guarantee you a postgraduate training post or even a job).
Penang Medical College is recognised by Ireland??!
I dont think so because the med-students do their practical in Msia
It is recognised in Ireland. They are eligible to do their internship in Ireland (and I know many people who have) but nowadays it is difficult to get a job because preference is given to EU citizens.
nav has given you the answer
How about Perdana University’s RCSI programme? In their website, they mentioned that their degree is recognised by both MMC and the Irish Medical Council.
Despite your negative comments on this university, many students are in hope to take up this programme provided with JPA scholarship. This may be due to its exorbitant tuition fee of 800k (high standard by high cost mah). Some even treat it as stricking lottery in a life time. What’s your comment and advice to prospective students?
Please visit MMC and Irish Medical Council website and see for yourself whether the degree is recognised!! The last I saw, none!
Frankly, it is overrated and overpriced! Just because they have government backup, they have hiked up the fee to make it look grandiose and internationally recognised when in fact, it is NOT. The government is supporting this uni via back door by using special JPA scholarship. That’s it.
The university belongs to a government crony mah……….
Nav above has also answered this question. There is no difference between the PMC and Perdana Irish programmes, in terms of recognition. At 800K, might as well just do IMU local or Monash Sunway.
Scholarship students of course do not care about the cost, they don’t pay for it, and the more expensive it is, the more ‘tuah’ they feel.
hi..
im a an MBBS doc from Bangladesh. i have got chances in masters of emergency medicine in MALAYA UNIVERSITY, MALAYSIA.
now , i want to know after completion of this degree can i b able to practice in malaysia or singapore or other country?
if i wana complete MRCP, during my masters..will it b possible?& wt will b my job prospect then?
after completion of masters , should i need to do another training ?
pols help me know.
Whether you can get a job in Malaysia or not depends on Ministry of Health. You can’t work anywhere else because the degree is not recognised elsewhere. In Malaysia, you still need to do 6 months gazettement process before being recognised as emergency physician. This can only be done in public hospitals. Thus you need to get a job in public hospital which is difficult for a foreigner.
However, you can try to apply for a job in University Hospital of Malaya University.
thx for your kind reply.
well..that means after gazettement i can be recognised as emergency physician? but after that can i b able to get a job only in public hospitals? not in private? pls make it clear.
another one is my MRCP issue. is it possible to complete MRCP during my course? will it be helpfull to settle my career in other country. pls let me know.
hi najnin ..can i get your contact as im also from BD and looking forward to get into the masters of emergency med in UM….thanks
Hi Dr,
I am a medical graduate from India.I have recently cleared PLAB and working in UK in the department of Accident and Emergency.I always planned to do my post graduation in General Surgery. As it is almost impossible to get training post in UK now am planning to move in Malaysia.I have seen master degree courses in General Surgery available in University of Malaysia and Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia.
I am wondering the entry requirements and the curriculum in these universities.
Can i later shift to Singapore for sub specialty training?
Please help me.
Dr.Mayukh
Masters in Malaysia is not recognised elsewhere thus you will not be considered as a surgeon in Singapore. UM and UKM only provide a very limited slots for foreign students to do Masters with no guarantee that you will get a job after that. You need to contact the respective universities for further info on curicullum etc.
Thanks for your reply.Can you please suggest me what should I do for a post graduate training in Gen.Surgery?I really wanted to move into this but after coming in UK I realize its not possible here.
Is there any other options/country for me?I am also planning to appear in imrcs part a in september’2012
Thanks.
Dr.Mayukh
why don’t you apply directly to Singapore?
Pagal
I am a graduate from India,Kolkata and am not sure whether my degree is recognized or not and some of my seniors told me that Singapore is now almost closed chapter for genereral surgery training.
can you please tell me how to apply or how to get into singapore?
Mayukh
Contact the Singapore Medical Council to check whether your degree is recognised. Then you need to apply to the respective hospitals for a post. Likely they will just give you a MO post 1st. Of course, nothing is guaranteed no matter where you go.
Pagal
Thanks for your reply.I’ll do that.
Mayukh
Dear Dr. Pagalavan.
I have just graduated from university of malaya. Currently filling up the form ready to go singapore. As u mention, singapore is a good choice, However, many of our senior working in singapore now said is like bottleneck for malaysian to get the speciality that u like. what easy available is only primary care specialist. Among 13 senior going, only 1 get or 2 get internal medicine and surgery. 5 get PCM and other still not getting anything yet. Nowaday all the main hospital like NUH are only take the resident directly from the NUS student. They not take other HO anymore. Therefore is harder and harder for us to compete with singaporean as we need to enter the main hospital. I so worry i will end up become chronic MO in singapore. Although it is undeniable the salary there is so luring me. However, i felt my this journey is like a gamble with unknown future.
Another thing is that, we cannot come back malaysia once we decide to go there. even we are already senior MO , if we want come back malaysia, we still need to work from the begining HO. this is because the MMC malaysia only give license to specialist come from oversea, not for MO. Mean my this journey will need me at least 7 year (complete resident program if lucky) before i can return bk malaysia to work. This is really a big decision, if just 2-3 year still ok, but 7 year really sweating!! this is why i now still wonder, should i stay back in malaysia or take the challenge go singapore. What do u think DR Pagalavan? thk for ur guidance. ^^
emm…u english sounds weird..can u please take up another year of english intensive course before u plan to ply u trade in singapore hospitals. u current english level is not up to the standard even for a medical doctor. wonder how u gonna write u report in english or been interviewed…
Dear Dr. Davron,
I am very sorry of using informal language in this website. I used to be common in using such language when chatting with my friend in facebook. As a result, I not aware of using same language here. Anyway, I admit my language is not good as I graduate from chinese school previously. Very sorry.
is it that you were born a pretentious snoot or some major incidence in your life made you so repulsive?
either ways i feel sympathetic towards you….
This is the comment I received from a friend of mine who is a gastroenterologist in NUH:
The ‘window’ of opportunity for ‘Malaysians’ is still open in the following way , although the ‘usual’ of ‘registrar / AST’ route for MRCP holder is fast becoming a thing of a past! Already for the past 7 years, numerous Malaysian who graduated abroad came immediately to Singapore from day one. Recently, UKM and UM graduates were making a beeline here..
Fresh graduates with recognized SMC degrees does HO and joins the residency programme immediately.
The residency is a 3 years programme. MRCP etc is expected to be completed by then and as well as ACGME exam. The passing rate for the MRCP here is very good because of the structure and support given over here.
Top residents get picked and matched for the subspeciality that they want ( …… this forces them to be excellent in their work ). Unfortunately, the ‘lesser’ resident will get ‘delayed’ in their choice of their subspec / hospital placements. Eventually, it will be a very competitive situation for both the residents and the fellowship provider / hospital to attract the best.
Whereas the system in Singapore aims to produce a trained specialist / consultant grade in about 9 years ( 3 yrs Residency +3 yrs Fellowship +2 yrs post fellowship which may include one year advanced fellowship …usually an overseas stint ), the Malaysian system will take ages and the path is unpredictable ( may be even biased ).
NO Matter where and which country you go, nothing is guaranteed!! You just have to sweat it out.
why did you apologise to davron? he is one who owes u an apology!!!!!!!
be professional please….thank you..
LOL what is “u english” and “u current”?
hi Dr…i`m interested to sit for mrcgp for my post graduate…is it recognize in KKM? does the exam conducted here? thanks
MRCGP is reognised but need to undergo 18 months gazettement process. However I am not sure whether the exams are conducted here. FRACGP is also recognised and conducted here by the Academy of Family Physcians Malaysia, vist their website
Dear Dr
I’m currently a HO and is interested in going further in aesthetic, anti-aging and regenerative medicine. I tried searching for more information online and it seems that the only university that offers a post-graduate MSC for anti aging, regenerative and aesthetic medicine is a private university in Malaysia. I’m not sure what is the future of aesthetic medicine in Malaysia like and if I like to further specialise in this field, where can I go or what is my next step? Hope you can help me with this. Thanks
Why do you want to be a glorified beautician? Apart from the money.
Aesthetic medicine is NOT actually a medical speciality degree yet. MMC came up with a guideline in 2008 http://mmc.gov.my/v1/docs/Aesthetic_Medicine.pdf for doctors who claim doing aesthetic medicine. Basically, you are a glorified beautician. Do you know that the indemnity insurance for aesthetic medicine is almost similar to obstetricians? The litigation rate is very high as people expect perfect job !! Yes, money is there but the risk is also high. Many Gps are going into this to make money. No real medicine involved!
dear dr,
You may hate to hear this but unfortunately i am among those who got an MBBS degree because i happened to get all the As and scholarship. yes, i was blind to the reality of working as a doctor. when i was in school the aim was to score perfect result. and then after school the aim was to enter the most difficult and competitive course and to get scholarship. i convinced myself i wanted to become a doctor when the reality is i was just being competitive. so i thought i could continue become competitive throughout my career life too but never did i know that the reality of being a doctor is not only being competitive but also physically fit, organised and highly discipline. which i am not
i am currently doing my ho training. i am wondering on how to apply for admin position after completing my ho training. becoming ho i realised i am not able to cope with the work demand. but i’m bonded to working with the government for 10 years. so im considering the option to enter admin and work office hour after HO. Thank you very much for your advice.
Another culprit in medicine….well u should have know that brilliant academic
alone won’t guaranteed u will be a brilliant doctor as well….u future and taxpayer’s money are wasted due to u ignorance and thirst for glamour…..there’s no way u can escape now since u are bonded for 10 years and i guess u’re under jpa scholarship….its either u parent pay the penalty to break bond for u so that u will be released from the hectic doctor’s life or u juz continue u so-called suffering 10 years of slavery in government hospital…
Dear dr davron,
Dont you think i already know that? Why did i asked for dr paglavan’s advice on the process to enter admin after ho in the first place if i didnt know that already? I made a mistake. People make mistakes and i am not ashamed to admit mine. So im thinking on how to escape clinical work without jeorpadising my bond and thats where the idea of becoming a med admin came. I saw ur few comments before to other commentators and how you criticised others on their language, etc. Because u r of course the best great doctor malaysia could ever have would know that that kind of attitude wont make u a good doctor either. No respect and rude with others. I am asking for advice and not for others to criticize me. As fyi, working as med admin in the gov hosp also meaning that i serve the public and that means serving the taxpayers. Please stop ur ideology that doctors are all about clinical care of patients. The branch is huge and it is personal preference on which route i chose to be. Thank you.
no need for flame wars. chill.
medicine benefits from a variety of people becoming doctors. Not everyone becomes a physician!
Here is where the system fails again. Perhaps research is of interest? Like the dark? Consider radiology… Dont like people? Pathology aha! The problem is that in malaysia it takes donkey’s years to pursue the field that you are interested in and you are expected to work in the pits for an extended time.
lily,
Don’t be disheartened by some comments. Medical administration is a recognised specialty in some countries.
If your degree allows you to work in Australia or New Zealand, you can apply to join the Royal Australasian College of Medical Administrators (RACMA) after you have got full/general registration in either country. This is their website: http://www.racma.edu.au
Otherwise, think about doing a Masters in Health Administration or Health Services Administration. I don’t know if you can do them via distance learning but a list of universities in Australia/NZ that offer them are here: http://www.racma.edu.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=398&Itemid=112
The fees may be prohibitive unless you are an Aus/NZ PR (which you can become once you work here).
I suspect most of the medical admin (i.e. doctors who go into admin) in public hospitals in Malaysia have no formal qualifications in that area. Private hospitals might want to hire you if you have a formal qualification in that area. Might pay to contact directors of various private hospitals to find out more information about the setting in Malaysia.
Hope this helps 🙂
I have seen many HOs like you and that is the reason I started this blog. After HO, you can apply to go district or KKs. However, you will still need do some clinical work. You can apply for Master’s in Public health which will put you incharge of public health matter which is mainly admin work.
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HI sir, between singapore and malaysia, which country provide better HO training and better chance of postgraduate?
Better HO training in terms of hands on, is still Malaysia. Getting postgraduate is not guaranteed no matter where.
continue.. and which country do you suggest to go as HO ?( singapore and malaysia). thk you
Dear Dr. Paglavan
i am an indian, and completed my M.B.B.S from an indian university 1 year back… in this 1 year i was preparing for the post graduate entrance exam here, which i failed to get through….now i’m planning for mrcog but i have least idea about it… i wanted to knw what are the prerequisites for taking the exam? i also wanted to knw that being just a M.B.B.S is enough to qualify to take the exam or not…. also, what is the time lapse between part 1 and part 2 exams, where the training will be given and all…..
thank you
You can sit for MRCOG Part 1 after internship but need to complete 4 years of training in O&G bfore sitting for Part 2
thank u for the reply sir………
just one more question…. is it mandatory to complete the training in the UK or it can be taken in india too?
Can be done in India if I am not mistaken.
It is very helpful information…. thank u for the reply sir…
Hello. Im a second year medical student. Im under JPA. But Im planning to migrate to australia later on after completing my housemanship. But I am bonded to JPA for 10 years. How is that possible? Please help me.
You can’t unless you pay back the bond as specified in your agreement. Furthermore, your degree must be recognised in Australia for you to work there or need to sit for the AMC exam.
stupid sangetha…dont ever think to migrate unless u’ve pay back to the society.
Dear doctor , kudos for you for enlightening young malaysian doctors like me one of them.Currently , i’m doing my last posting of housemen ship in seremban.I would like to do orthopaedics in my future.I have understood that this is one of the most difficult course to get into place in local universities as many doctors wanted to apply for it.My MO’s adviced me to sit for MRCS part 1 , so that it will be easier to get into place in that programme.But does MRCS still recognisble in malaysia? if NOT , it that true that those who have finished MRCS part 1 given priority compare than others?Doctor , what is my next step in order to be an orthopaedics surgeon? Kinldy enlighten me.Thank you.
Yes, orthopaedic has always been the most competitive Master’s programme. The saying is “it is the easiest Master’s” as the passing rate is almost 100%! Some even have to wait almost 4-5 years to get a place.
MRCS is not recognised as a specialist degree in Malaysia but it does give you a better chance of getting into Master’s. Having completed MRCS may also give you an opportunity to get into Singapore.
There is no other way of becoming a Osthopaedic surgeon in Malaysia.
it’s interesting that many people ask if MRCS is recognized as this new MRCS is only an exam to test the basic surgical knowledge.
That’s because people assume MRCS and MRCP are full specialist qualifications. This isn’t helped by the many doctors in Malaysia who call themselves specialists after completing the MRCP only. Even the parents of these young doctors (you can complete all parts of the MRCP 2-3 years after medical school) go around telling their friends “my son/daughter is a specialist now”.
Dear Dr Pagal,
is the compulsory service 3 years or 4 years? i asked JPA and they said 4 years, however MMC said 3 years. why are there such discrepancy? What happens if we resign before completing the compulsory service?
it is 2 years housemanship and 2 years MO. If you resign earlier, MMC will not give you an APC and thus you can’t practise as a doctor.
2 years from the date of full registration?
yes.
Dear Dr Pagal,
Thanks for shedding light for us who are not familiar with Malaysia medical system. I am currently working as a GP in Singapore and am considering to return back to Malaysia to practise medicine. I am confused as to the actual process to apply for registration, i.e I need to apply for registration and then perhaps check if I need to serve any compulsory service ( I graduated since 2004 in NZ) . I wonder what will be the duration that I will need to fulfil. Also, upon getting full registration, the dr needs to get a job offer within one month, that might not be so straight forward for us who are keen to return.
As far as I know , MMC only exempts you from compulsory service if you have worked for more than 10 years overseas or age > 45 years old.
dear dr pagalavan,
well i need a help from you…….. i had cleared my mrcs part a exam …now i m looking for my mrcs part b training in singapore…… but i m failing in finding any in singapore … can u plzzz link me some medical hospital that provide training…i will be very thankfull to you
Try NUH, Singapore or penang medical college in Malaysia.
hi sir iam dr sanjeevagouda, MD, DNB(MED), FELLOW IN NON INVASIVE CARDIOLOGY from india, bangalore, want to know that after clearing all parts of MRCP(UK), SHOULD WE NEED TO PAY SOME AMOUNT yearly TO RCP, UK to maintain the membership?
Not necessary.
Hi dr Pagalavan
I am Kelvin Yuwanda. i am still a student who currently doing final clinical years in Medan, Indonesia. i want to know how to apply housemanship in malaysia because i think i gonna continue my study there. i heard from my malaysian friend they have to do housemanship 2 years before they can apply to a specialised programme. oh ya, i am interested in anasthesiology. can u help me? thanks before. 🙂
I presume you are not a Malaysian. Malaysia do not provide housemanship for foreigners unless you are a PR here or married to a Malaysian
Hello sir,I am Dr JUNAIDH from India.I am graduated from Russia.MD(Russia).I am working as casualty med.officer in one of our govt. hospitals in Kerala state.I want to do MRCP.What should i do for that?.Is this degree(MD Russia) reconised in Malaysia?.Will i get an opportunity to work and train for MRCP in Malaysia?.
IN Malaysia, foreigners are only allowed to work in government hospitals on contract basis, depending on availability of post. You can do MRCP in India itself. Pls visit MRCP website for further info.
thank you sir for enlightening me
Hello Dr Paga, I am a final year medical student (or as the nurses calls us here- MS a.k.a. the fetuses of the medical fraternity) from UM. First off, wonderful blog 🙂 Kudos for coming up with what must be the medical blog with the biggest readership in the country (and possibly the region).
I must say it has inspired within me a flurry of mixed emotions of excitement (re: the recent articles about the challenge of housemanship, and the value of rural posting), fear and humility (re: the glut of medical personnel and difficulties of further specialization).
My MBBS is one year from now, and as the date crawls near, my fear and excitement (of one day being able to treat patients in my own right), grows bigger. Nevertheless, throughout the downs of medical school (especially after starting clinicals, I have found that the best spirit lifter for me is often to see a truly competent and passionate doctor in his/her element and aspiring of one day being able to do that. Once in a while we medical students, are treated to life-stories of senior doctors of how they got to where they are today, and it almost always leaves us in awe and inspiration.
I am very curious of your experience in undergraduate medical school as we share the same alma mater. I wonder whether we receive the same quality of training now as compared to the past, as we are often at the receiving ends of harsh comments from our professors about how the quality of UM graduates is dropping and our future is in jeopardy, sadly. It would be wonderful if you could provide us with more articles of your own experience in training and tips to push ourselves for the extra mile when times get challenging, as well as to be better doctors.
Definately the standards of UM is dropping. I was thought by Professors who were world renowened then. Unfortuantely many of them have either retired or left to private sector. I was lucky because during my time, there were not many private hospitals/medical schools around but just before I graduated, private hospitals started to mushroom all over Klang Valley. Many of these good lecturers and professors left to SJMC, Gleanegales and Sunway medical centre.It is the same for MOH as well where many of the good consultants who use to teach housemen has left!
Dear Dr,
What does SKT mean (with at least 85% above) ? and how is it being assessed on those who want to apply for master program? Is it a written exam or a practical assessment?
You will know once you join civil service. It is not an exam or practical assessment. It is an asessment by your head of department on your performance! so, be very nice to your boss.
hello dr. im a final year medical student from monash malaysia. im wondering if i should go over to australia for my intern andother trainings and to become a specialist there (that is if i get a job there) or to stay back in malaysia??? as you can see, places for internship in australia is very tough for foreigners like us. and in order to go over there, we need to write cover letter and CV which i have nothing to write about as i was not active at all during my past years in medical school. on top of that we will be contract basis eventhough we are lucky enough to get a place in australia, which means that we have to apply for jobs and might be transferred to other hospital every year. i have also heard that australian exam to become specialist is harder than the UK exam. is it true??? im not a high flyer student and is always at the passing line therefore im lost now please give some advise (im a malaysian)
IT is entirely up to you. If you are planning to migrate, then go to Australia. If not, might as well you do your housemanship here.
Getting a job in Australia will become very difficult soon. Getting into their speciality programme is also difficult, even if you do get a job there.Priority is always given to their citizens and PRs. I am already receiving few emails from Malaysian doctors there who are unable to get a surgical training post and wants to come back.
Their post graduate training system is very well structured and strictly monitored. The standards are almost the same as UK. If you think you will not be able to match the standards there then might as well you do everything here. You can always decide to go to Australia later if you think you want to migrate.
‘Generally all private medical schools in Malaysia are not well equiped with adequate number of academics to be internationally recognised!!’
Being a local academician in a private medical school,i seriously take an offense to what is written.
Firstly have you ever been to England,Scandinavia or Australia,lived and taught the medical students and rated them.Obviously not.If you had done so ,you will know how well our medical students,i wont vouch for all of them,i have been to many of these places and worked with my peers there and taught medical students.
1.We are in no way inferior to them ,we could be even better.
2.As to the fact of being internationally recognised,why should the do so when they have plenty to export except for the US.
Its a misnomer to think that all Caucasians medical schools are superior.to ours.
3.Some of the medical schools needtime to reorganise and will come to par with the rest .
4Outright condemnation is not fair unless it is evidencebased.
Regards,
Malacca.
Every country have their own healthcare system. In most countries , the curicullum is structured to their healthcare system. I have been to Monash Australia and I know that the PBL sessions is facilitated by paramedics and not medical lecturers. In Monash Malaysia, it is done by lecturers. You may think that this is great and better BUT the students in Australia get a much better clinical teaching when they do their clinical postings, simply because the teaching environment is better unlike our MOH hospitals. Of course, there are good students and bad students in every university in the world.
If our medical schools are excellent then they should go all out to get recognition from other countries to make the college truly worldclass!! That is what I am saying. No point becoming jaguh kampung. Soon, when oversupply of doctors hit us in 3-4 years time, where are these students going to go to find a job. Spending more money to sit for all kind of entrance exams without an income?
Evidence base? the evidence is out there for everyone to see. It is very obvious now that many graduates are below par compared to few years ago. Why is this happening? Too many colleges with too few good academics?
It is a well know fact that most medical schools in this country is taking in more students then what they can really handle in terms of number of academics.
Hi Dr., is master of med (surg) NUS, singapore recognised in malaysia?
It is not in the list of recognised postgraduate degree. However, if I am not mistaken, it is tied to FRCS(UK) exam. If so, then it will be recognised. Otherwise, it will be considered on case by case basis with some period of gazettement process.
Dear Dr,
I am a medical officer in Taiwan. I am going to train in internal medicine department here. But one big problem in Taiwan is : many doctors got sue by patients, as the law in Taiwan didn’t benefit doctor. Some of my seniors were quite desperated with that and went back malaysia to started over from HO. But other doctors in MY advised me to take specialist in Taiwan then back MY, as GP in MY seems more and more.
My questions are :
1. Getting a specialist certification from Taiwan then back MY, vs Go back MY straightly, which is better?
2. Is internal medicine certification good enough to go back MY or I had to take subspecialist like cardiologist or gastroentorogist? I have though to take a Internal medicine certification and go back MY, taking dermatology there, Is it possible?
3. I am a chronic HBV carrier, HbsAg(+) but Anti-HbE(+), could i be a surgeon in MY? Or I could just be internist? It is important for me as I am chosing my posting recently.
Thanks a lot for your answer.
Patients sue doctors in Malaysia too. The litigation rate is going up day by day. You must undertand that not all training in taiwan is recognised in malaysia. In fact, none! The reason why many are coming and can easily claim that they are a specialist is because there is NO specialist registry yet in Malaysia. The amended Medical Act is still in the Parliament for approval. Once approved, the MMC will decide whether you can call yourself a specialist or not based on the training that you have received. The healthcare in Malaysia is different than Taiwan.
1) up to you but remember that training in Taiwan may not be recognised here. If you come back before 10 years of service in Taiwan, you have to do 4 years compulsory service in government hospitals/kliniks.
2) Preference to subspeciality training in Malaysia will be given to those who have undergone specialist training in malaysia.
3) There is no law to say that you can’t become a surgeon but the general guideline is to avoid any invasive/interventional procedures. Thus being a surgeon puts the patient at risk of getting infected by you. The patient can sue the hospital and you if he/she finds out.
hi pagalavan,,,,, i have recently cleared my mrcs part a …. and had completed my mbbs and one year intership from pakistan… now i m thinking of doing either amc or usmle and then finished my mrcs part b…… can u help me that will i get advantage of doing mrcs with amc or usmle or that its doesnt matter…..and finally which one is better usmle or amc regarding my mrcs?i will be very thankfull
It does not matter as MRCS is not recognised in US or Australia. So, no point passing MRCS. Just sit for AMC or USMLE depending where you want to go.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I have been offered a condtional offer to study medicine at Newcastle University Malaysia. I currently hold a Bsc in Biomedical Sciences from Newcastle University. I was hoping if you could advise me on whether accepting the offer would be a good decision as I am not a Malaysian citizen and don’t really know much about housemanship. Moreover, I also wanted to specialised in dermatology or plastic in the UK so as to work there but I am uncertain about how to proceed in that career path if i accept the offer.
Thanking you for your help.
Why don’t you apply to Newcastle UK? Even if Newcastle Malaysia gets GMC recognition, it does not guarantee you an internship post in UK. GMC has made this very clear in their report http://www.gmc-uk.org/09___Newcastle_Medical_School_in_Malaysia___Quality_Assurance___Annex_A_B.pdf_46442981.pdf, page 9. Please also read towards the end of this report.
Malaysia do not provide housemanship post to foreigners and furthermore, doing housemanship in Malaysia will not make you eligible to get GMC full registration, which means you can’t work in UK.
Well i had apply for graduate entry in other UK universities but was unsucessful hence have applied to newcastle malaysia and applying to Monash malaysia as well. So even i do the housemanship in malaysia, i wont be able to specialise and work in the uk
Is Monash malaysia the same then? I know its accredited with Australia, so i can specialise and work in australia
Monash Malaysia is recognised in Australia and NZ and thus you are eligible to get a post there. However, I must warn you that priority will be given to their citizens and PRs. If you look at this report https://pagalavan.com/2012/05/31/for-future-doctors-time-is-running-out-part-2/ you will realise that Australia may also close it’s doors for international students.
Why don’t you try DUKE-NUS in Singapore?
I thought the DUKE-NUS was very competitive for international students and have not sat the MCAT yet as I just finished my degree. I am so glad to have found your blog. THANK YOU
JAY
Dear doctor,
im currently working as mo in district hosp.. i need to know what is the criteria for applying masters for psychiatry in malaysia.. do i have to do mrcp first…or is there any other program(psy) that is recognised in malaysia besides our local masters..
The criteria is the same for all Master’s programme. You can seach the website for the criteria. MRCPsy is recognised in Malaysia but I am not sure whether you can sit for this exam in Malaysia.
Hi Dr.
Im currently waiting to be a houseman near in July.
Im interested in both surgery and medicine as well as interested to become a lecturer in the any of the local universities in the future.
Just want to ask your honest opinion, which path should I took, taking MRCP or MRCS, which one is better, i means based on current situation – overflows of houseman, competition and all.
MRCS does NOT make you a surgeon! So, finish your housemen and decide which field you are interested. If surger,you need to do Master’s. If internal medicine, then can do MRCP.
Dear Sir,
If i had graduated from Medical University in the oversea recognized by our government.
Can i do my internship oversea then continue with 2 years compulsory service with the government or i must do 2+2 in Malaysia all together ?
Thank you
Depends on which country and what postings that you have done.
It depends. If your 2 years overseas is equivalent to the 2 years in Malaysia, then you only need to do 2 years compulsory service. Equivalent means doing the same rotations for at least an aquivalent amount of time. For example, if you haven’t done Paeds or O&G as part of your first 2 years overseas then they will probably make you do that here before signing you off.
Hello Dr.Pagalavan
i am a final year mbbs student studying in KMC, Manipal.. i would like to pursue post graduate studies in india..i am interested in MS ENT….after my post graduation is it possible for me to apply for a job in singapore or malaysia??what are the job prospects?what is the procedure?what is the average experience required in singapore?
If I am not mistaken, Singapore do not recognise MS ENT from India. Malaysia can recognise you after 5 years. You may get a registra post in Singapore.
Being Ms ENT can only secure a SERVICE registrar post in singapore…. Paid though is lucrative upon conversion to ringgit… near consultant paid. With frustration of hindrance into their fellowship training most is a most plus with less grateful-complaining population compared to our home country…. BTW why leave, stay on with Ms ENT in home country and get subspecialty training….
Dear Dr Pagal.
I understand you’ve answered a big ton of questions, but please bear with mine as they aren’t similar.
I’m already a local msian gov mo for 7 years. Havent started my masters yet due to a variety of reasons.
I plan to do plabs and migrate to the uk. Due to a variety of reasons e.g environment, kids and family etc.
Is it worth it at this stage. How difficult would it be to get a job there once im fully registered (of course after passing plabs).
Thanks sir.
Passing plab do not guarantee you a job in UK. Furthermore, you may need to do housemanship again in UK in order to get full registration with GMC.
If you are really into it then you can try for it.
Dr. can you pls provide the information of USMLE.. I find it hard to get such information and details in Malaysia.
Have you tried searching “how to sit USMLE Malaysia” in Google? There is no spoonfeeding in real life.
There are many websites and forums on USMLE. You can search the net.
As a fresh graduate of MS candidate in ENT field i must share my journey of post grad academic. I have sat through various board of exam, include BSSE organised by Prof david Choon via AMM, MRCS england, DOHNS london. All these aint make different in the career in practising as a surgeon in malaysia. You will still need MS to be gazetted…. There are FRCS ENT exit exam but this exam aint’ easy without any FRCS ENT consultant guidance of which is a few in malaysia
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I’m a gov MO of only 3 years of service. I’m currently serving in a periphery health clinic.
I would like to further my studies and get into a Masters program but have not decided on which yet.
I’m very passion driven. But sad to say (and as bizarre as this sounds), I think that I’m losing interest in seeing patients.
By all means, I’m still compassionate towards my patients and I do my best as a doctor to help them. But at the end of the day, I don’t feel accomplished because deep down I don’t enjoy seeing them anymore.
I do agree that there are many ways that we can help others, but for me as a doctor, seeing patients doesn’t fulfill me anymore.
I’ve considered fields with minimal patient contact e.g. radiology or blood bank, but I do not enjoy working in a hospital setting.
Is there any other medical or even non clinical fields that I can possibly
venture into as postgraduate studies? Where can I get advice and information on this?
I may be interested in research studies. Can you also shed some light on this?
Please advise. Many thanks in advance.
dear lucem quaerere, you have reach ceiling point, there is always higher ceiling. being clinician but wish not to have loading patient…. YES there is alwas an option… doing rehab physician, sport medicine all these are very new specialty awaiting for new blood…. not all doctor are meant to be surgeons or physician, the passion must be always in a state of empty glass that will never filled up…
Yes, many do have similar scenarios in their life as a doctor. After some time, many doctors will feel the same. However, yours is too soon ( only 3 years )! I suggest you can try Public health, basic science Master’s and become a lecturer etc. If you don’t like hospital setting and do not want to see patients, then public health will be an option. However, you will be with the government forever but do have an oppurtunity to become a district health officer or Pengarah. You can also join the enforcement unit or become a admin staff in Jabatan Kesihatan etc.
Seeing the culture of obtaining oversea qualification to outshine local hardcore colleague is disgusting….its never a qualification that make you a good doctor, its your years of works and experience that make you a good one.
morning Dr.
I am a foreigner doing my Mmed( Psych) in Malaysia, the degree is accepted back home ( Maldives) , but i am interested in working abroad and studying further, but after entering the program I have realized it is not really accepted by a lot of countries ( I guess i didnt do my research! ).
I was wondering whether there are any countries at all who would accept a malaysian masters degree where it would be atleast possible to study?
some middle east countries like Sudan, Iraq, Iran do. Unfortunately no western countries accepts our Master’s degree.
In summary, any brilliant kid should not pursue medical degree if they:
1.not rich enough to self-sponsored(Rm 1 million at current rate) to western university(uk,us,aus,nz,can or ire).
2.can’t secure scholarship of any form to support them to the unis mentioned above.
3.persevere and lasting endurance to keep you moving for easily 10-15yrs before you reach your goal.
If you do fortunate enough to fall into this categories, why medicine, go for accountant, actuary or finance-the amount of money you can generate is far more than a decent specialist now.
With the amount of effort,time and money spent, you can easily acquired accountancy, law and actuary altogether.
If a doctor stop working so is his income.
If a lawyer stop working, his income continues, why?-as he runs law firm where many fresh grad working for him will just need to copy and paste the documents for all clients for same issue, he signs it=money come.
Same for accountant and other business/finance related work.
You hear people say if that doctor not around, i don’t want to see others,
you never hear people say if lawyer A not around, i won’t want to sign agreements.
See the difference?
Those day where doctor make tons of money had far gone.
As a young medical graduate, you will face endless competitions.
Getting a MBBS/MBCHB/MD is just a beginning, you are the bottom most in the biological food chain.
That’s why Singapore Government never send their president scholar to overseas for medical study,
In other field, yes(any university and any course you mentioned-provided being accepted, the spore gov will sponsor you.)
If you were to send top scholar to medical study in overseas, when they come back to do horsemanship, even a student nurse can bully him,
whereas someone were send to Harvard for double major in world economy with finance-in few years time he can be a CEO running an international Enterprise company making million to billions(anytime as they are cream of the country), with nice condo and Porsche running in/out socializing in VIP parties .
By now the medical counterpart may be still be struggling for membership exams or endless on call at registrar post with a pathetic salary hardly can feed a family.
If you are so determined to become one.best of luck.
If you dont fall into the categories, and try your luck in local university.
Be honest, i dont see future for our young doctors simply it is too overcrowded!
Stuff nurses jobless, pilots jobless, for how long you think it will spread to medical field?answer is very soon.
Then you will see medical doctors become lab researcher, pharmaceutical sales or worst-jobless.
Not to mention even you get training job, and be credentialed as specialist, you will still have no confidence in your work, you will prefer to stay on longer for training as the dilution factors are so great that you hardly see or do enough operations/treating diseases for you to work as independent consultant without supervision.
with all this negative view points still do not deter you from being a doctor,
i will say, yes you belong to us, the medical fraternity!
Young Malaysian of doctor wanna-be, do think carefully and wisely before you make decisions.
Well said. This is what I am trying to say all this while. Do not do medicine for good future, good life and good money!
come on pal, if all human think of their ultimate death anytime, then no one will work; if all father think of the life long work for their family then no man will breed; We should not be too transparent in dictating the whatsoever possible bad expectation to our all young blood who still have dream in their life as doctor.
You have to understand doing medicine is simple. just 5 years…. just another 2 more years than other faculty degree. after 5 years.. YOUR DREAM is achieved. You are a doctor!!! that’s all.. start serving and start using your BRAIN to make the best out of the MBBS that you get. NO ONE ask you to be a specialist, NO one as you to be a surgeon, NO ONE as you to be PENGARAH… These are just real passion that bring you far, no one will force you to be any of the above category k!! Being a MBBS doctor is already a DOCTOR. Its your own greed that make you a misery in return if you fail to understand passion.
In summary, please pal, dont discourage all young aspiring young blood who wish to be a doctor, not all young blood think in the narrow box like you did. Thank you
RCS england member
No offense to anyone.
I can’t deny the fact that Dr title followed you after MBBS.
In 70′ a MBBS can do anything under the sky with confidence and pride.
He was exposed to most if not all diseases commonly seen, he was the only to one in ward to operate appendicitis or even LSCS.
When come to 2010, 5 housemans share to see one patient,worst of all, in shift system-you see him at 10pm, some see at 8am-patient’s relevant hx was passed over by shift.
How could you possible know he had a hypoglycemia in the evening, have a mild acute coronary syndrome when he heard his son had an accident etc…
The scope for the current MBBS holders to learn is so limited and unbelievably narrowed.
Any decent minded and good conscientious doctor will be worrying where will he be lead to with this unfavorable learning ground.
Well,Is just not his fault at all.
Is just that malaysia is producing too many medical graduates, probably a word-wide phenomenon.
There is always a way out-you tend to work harder, stay longer in ward, read more textbook or even sit for more exams to compensate for what is lacking(I’m talking at MBBS level!)
You can decide to F the system and work as GP.
Here come the interesting part-everyone thinks that i might not specialise,just open a clinic be my own boss-sound logic and definitely do-able.
Had you have any idea how many GP clinics closed down in months,if not in weeks.
Those are the solid facts where no outsiders will know, me around the medical field no less than 15yrs and few years in private practice and still actively following up medical education locally and globally,
my conclusions are-be at MBBS level, MRCP/MRCS/MRCOG/FRCR etc or specialized specialist level,
the effort and price paid are tremendous.
after-all it is just work for meals,dose it really worth the trouble just for the sake of addressing oneself as D R?
I look at my friends who were far away in academic performance during high school time,most of them already a manager or senior manager, having nice time with family and i mean real healthy,quality time.
Whereas i was still busying in collecting pt’s data for clinical trials till mid-night. awaiting me at home were thick pages of study tests and MCQS to prepare for Post MRCP, BOARD Exams, of course my asleep family members as well.
I didn’t conclude that all successful doctors would face this little extreme scenario,but if this is the route for ultimate goal of specialist consultant, it won’t be far off!
You reach the top roughly 40+,take 3-5 yrs to build you career,you have max 10yrs to make $$, which is pathetic as business people are thinking of retirement.
You are warned not to compare at all along you journey, you will go mad.
You may ask if this job is so devastating, would i be regretted to be one?
My answer to you is no, i never regret,in fact i enjoyed the hardship.
It makes me a better person, understand people’s hardship better, learn the fact that there is God up-there.
We as doctor can only help, leave him to heal, so be humble!
There is one thing for sure, Bill gates is much, much richer than me, but i can save life with my very bare hands where he couldn’t.
When i’m done, i have no fear to face him, my lord, as i’d served mankind in this world for my lifetime.
If my advise touches you,welcome to join the work in which i think,i’m serving lord at all time.
Dear TC Wong,
Good points in your comment, except for your last paragraph.
How does practicing medicine make you understand that “there is God up-there”? Is it the cancer god gives to children? If you think god heals, surely god must be the cause of all diseases and ailments as well.
If you think god heals and not us, next time prescribe someone a dose of prayer instead of antibiotics for their bacterial meningitis and let me know what happens. Prayer makes people feel better but does absolutely nothing.
I’m glad that you feel that you have no fear to face your “lord”. But the reality is that you should be helping people because it is the right thing to do, not because of divine reward or fear of punishment in the afterlife.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I am now currently a matriculation graduate student in Malaysia. I would like to ask how is the future of recognition in Malaysia if I study medicine course in China compared to Russia? Which one is the better option?
Is Sun Yat Sen University is recognized by Malaysia and do we need to sit for examination when we come back to Malaysia?
At this moment, none of the universities in China is recognized in Malaysia as per MMC schedule http://mmc.gov.my/v1/docs/Jadual%20Kedua%2011-12-09.pdf.
However MMC is in the process in accrediting some of the universities in China BUT I would suggest not to go to China at this moment. I would not recommend Russia as well!
Hello Dr,
i just graduating from one of IPTA in malaysia, Currently i’m doing my housemanship in Johor Bahru. I looking forward to know how can i start taking MRCPch. I want to know how to register, the fees. Since i was practicing in Johor bahru, how about part 3.. do i need to move to PPUM? im looking forward for your guide sir, thanks you.
Are you talking about MRCP or MRCPsych?
i mean MRCPCH, i want to continue pedriatric
Any general hospital will do. You just have to go to UMMC for the exam only
Sir,
Good evening. I’m a matriculation graduate under JPA. The upu and usm admission results were released two days ago…and I got an offer from USM, nothing from UM or UKM.
Initially I was elated because USM used to override UM and UKM as one of the top unis in Asia in terms of the quality of the medical courses offered. After going through the comments and replies above only did I realize that a USM undergraduate/postgraduate degree is not recognized at all in Singapore.
Can sir please kindly offer some advice as to whether or not I should accept the offer or write an appeal letter to the dean of UM medical course faculty?
I’m seriously troubled. Thank you.
Getting a medical seat in public uni is already very difficult. However, USM is not recognized in Singapore. Since you are a JPA scholar, you will be bonded with the government anyway, for 10 years. So, you can’t go to Singapore anyway!
Thanks…that’s for matriculation. JPA scholarship for USM will only be open for application during the orientation week…so I’m hesitating whether or not to accept the jpa scholarship
Why the obsession with Singapore? Remind yourself why you wanted to be a doctor in the first place. And besides your degree is heavily subsidised by Malaysian taxpayers, you should be serving Malaysians, not Singaporeans.
I feel really bad for Malaysian taxpayers – the way their hard-earned money is being spent on this dead end system…
Well…actually I haven’t applied for the scholarship yet. And with evident cases of HOs being mistreated(even the nurses can order em to do trivial stuff which supposedly should be theirs to take care of, the endless and sometimes ridiculous tongue-lashing), sorry I’ve seen and heard too much, I certainly have the very right to be concerned.
And it’s an understatement that Singapore government appreciate talents. Why opt for a rotten apple when you can pick the fresh one?
And don’t get the taxpayers topic started. There are thousands of other ways taxpayers’ money is flung recklessly by the government itself…just get off your chauvinistic moral high horse.
I wasn’t even referring to the JPA scholarship, all public medical schools in Malaysia are funded by the government – how else do you think the fees in public universities are so cheap compared to private ones?
In my opinion. all public university graduates owe the nation a duty, even more so for medical graduates. It’s basically a race to the bottom in this country and you’re certainly not helping things with your mentality.
Alpine exhorted:
I wasn’t even referring to the JPA scholarship, all public medical schools in Malaysia are funded by the government … In my opinion. all public university graduates owe the nation a duty, even more so for medical graduates.
And I suppose the government provided this funding independantly and with virtuous charity. Or are you somehow implying that LeonardK’s parents are not tax payers? Public universities are funded out of taxation. Most university entrants come from families that pay tax, There is no debt and nothing owed.
Hi LeonardK,
While I agree that you do not owe Malaysia anything, as long as your parents were taxpayers, I also think that you might have too much of a rosy picture of Singapore.
While pay is better, their work conditions for housemen are about the same as Malaysia (with crap hours and 32-hour long shifts, etc) but known to be more stressful. While I can’t comment on bullying by nurses, I can guarantee that there will be specialists who shout and ridicule you in public and treat you as subhuman. No different from Malaysia.
Unless you are of Chinese descent, you will also suffer from racial discrimination and prejudice. It’s all done sneakily under the veil of ‘meritocracy’. At least in Malaysia you know it’s gonna happen.
All said and done, if I were in your shoes and had to make a choice, I would choose Singapore. 10 years ago I would have picked Malaysia to do my housemanship. In the end of the day, whatever choice you make, make sure it is an informed one. Sounds like it is all a moot point though, because the USM degree is not recognised by SMC.
Lastly, please don’t think you are a ‘talent’ once you have your basic medical degree.
Hi Nav,
Singapore does have racial discrimination, all countries have it to a greater or lesser degree. But I don’t think Singapore deserves to be compared with Bolehland on this front. (The most highly developed system of constitutional and institutional racism since apartheid, supremecist seige mentality, after 50+ years the master-race still slurring others as ‘pendatang’…. and the list goes on… and a topic best not discussed here)
Hi Jon J,
I agree with you and I would never claim that Singapore is worse than Malaysia in this respect. The point I wanted to get across was that Singapore likes to crow about its ‘meritocracy’ but it is just a smokescreen.
Even though there is racism in every country (in varying degrees), there are quite a few forward-thinking developed nations that have checks in place to ensure fairness and authorities that will take action if decisions are made based on race. Malaysia/Singapore have quite a way to go to get to that level of social equality.
Jon J & Nav,
I can’t agree more with both of you. I am a centrist. However, I don’t think social equality is something to be expected of the nation’s current situation. Meritocracy based on a just system, in Malaysia, ha that’s the biggest joke of the century. It is, if anything, as ignorant as saying one day a non-Malay would be our PM. After all, this is Tanah Melayu, with the infamous sugar-coated One Malaysia concept, a political fiasco that vouches equality.
My fear is that someday this wrath might drive revolution as a bulwark against racial discrimination, like the Arab Spring. End of discussion.
Haha I digressed.
Btw, I’ve thought it over and decided to enroll in USM in hope that one day the uni is gonna gain wider accreditation. I’m still green, with nothing but youthful zeal to spare. 🙂
Dear Dr. Pagalavan
I have just completed my housemanship and looking at my options.
How is the field of Clinical Oncology in Malaysia? I believe it has a bright future but i dont have much details. Could you please shed some light here please.
Really appreciate your time and effort
Thank You
Oncologist is still very much needed in this country. One of the university do offer Master’s in Oncology, can’t remember which one but I think it is UM. Otherwise you can also do it as a sub specialist of surgery or medicine. However, the market in private sector is very much limited if your intention is to go to private sector
Dear Sir,
I am a MBBS graduate from India & now I am looking for options to pursue my future education in singapore or kualalumpur.So it will be great help if you can give me some give some suggestions regarding my studies. I have also recently written IELTS ,but awaiting results. I would appreciate if you can spend some of your precious time in solving my query.
Thank you
To work in either of this country, your basic medical degree must be recognised. Malaysia provide vey limited place for foreign students in their public university Master’s programme. You need to contact the respectve universities for further info. Try UM, UKM or USM.
Dear Dr,
I am a final year medical student in a private university. I have understand that my MD cert is not recognized internationally however I am interested to work in singapore and if possible to be train as a physician later. It is not easy to enter singapore as an houseman. So what are the alternative available for me taking MRCP?
you sit for their NUS exam or wait till you pass MRCP. After MRCP, you can be offered a MO or registra post in Singapore
Dear Dr,
1) How to i proceed to sit for NUS exam?
2) Must I complete the MRCP or I could go there after MRCP part 2?
You need to contact Singapore Medical council for further info.
You need to complete the MRCP.
Pagal
Hello dr..
I’m HO , planning to take mrcs and apply as a trainee lecturer and continue my master course in surgical. May I know the procedure of applying trainee lecturer? Which local uni is offering this course?
You can try UM, UKM, USM, UPM, UNIMAS, UIA and if you are a BUMI , try UiTM.
Where can I get the application form? Thanks doctor
Another spoon-fed brat….
Pls ask the universities!
hi Sir. How r u?
i would like to ask u only 1 ques. if during my housemanship i wanna take 1 month holiday, is that possible?
bcoz i dun mind to do the 1 month work as substantive after the holiday (extra 1 month repay)
Nope, you can’t. As a government servant, you are only entitled for 25days leave for 1 year. This 25 days will be devided into 3 postings per year, that’s 8 days per posting.
thank you.
is ter any alternative? unpaid leave or jus missing in action? what will probably happen?
im sorry if this matter is out of the discussion here. but i really need to know. i need to take the one month leave probably after 3-4 months i start my housemanship.
Then don’t start your housemanship. Ask for postponement of your starting date.
Missing in action means disciplinary action will be taken. NO such thing as unpaid leave for houseman when you are still not confirmed in service.
yes. i guess thats the only best thing can be done. to postpone. thank you dr.
hi…
m a medical graduate from india (mbbs)..n want to pursue my post graduation training from singapore …i want to know how to apply for it and job opportunities after masters from singapore .
thnks
Please check with Singapore medical council whether your basic degree is recognised in Singapore. Then you need to apply for a post directly to their hospitals.
Hello sir, what is your opinion of czech-trained medical doctors? tq
I have not worked with one, as such, can’t comment
Dear sir,
I’m currently an IB student and considering to take medicine. I wonder which is more important to consider if my end goal is to be a practicing doctor in Malaysia: Fit (in terms of IQ) to be and the interest in being a doctor or the ability to handle the career? Putting aside job and earning prospects, job security etc., which counts more? (would appreciate if you would give me an insight on your opinion and the current situation of young doctors, fresh out of uni.) Thanks in advance. =)
Oh.. forgot to mention. I’m a pharmacy uk JPA holder. I’ve been drawn to do medicine a few years ago, however I held back thinking that I might not end up being a good doctor due to stress levels. I know I have passion, but I don’t know whether I have the capabilities to practise. I think you’ve mentioned much that a good Learning doctor does not equal a good Practising one.
It’s pretty hard to tell whether someone is doctor material at our age.
The consequences for my judgement would most probably lead me to losing my ticket to uk, but maybe studying locally. A little more info about me: financials are a crucial factor and I would definitely need to remain on scholarship if I were to pursue this career. It’s a crucial turning point for me, sir. I definitely appreciate your insight regarding this matter. Thank you again sir.
I can’t decide for you. You can read all my articles under “for future doctors” page and decide.
All of it! You need brains, interest, passion and willing to put up with the stress and work demand
dear dr, i am a HO in my final posting. now , i am required to hand up my application to apply for MOship. i am interested in ortopedics or O+G but due to the fact that master programme will be hard to get and it’s a long queue .
Hence, i decide to choose paediatrics, in which not to say that i am not interested but at least i can go for MRCPch.
my ultimate aim would be opening up my own child specialist clinic..
i am still in dillemma…can you provide me with some opinion.
and if i were to proceed with MRCPch, can all 3 parts of the exam be taken in malaysia? how is the passing rate?
Yes, All 3 parts can be sat inMalaysia. Passing rate is usually about less then 50% in Malaysia. After passing , you need to undergo 18 months gazettement period before you can call yourself a paediatrician.
Thank you for the wonderful insight for us who are on the path of medicine. It is certainly helpful.
Being med student from Russia, and I agree with many of previous posters comments on the rule of probabilities regarding these universities. For a stubborn hothead insisting on a career of med, I was also one, who is unwilling to try my luck for a local U spot (the 2 yrs of STPM and regretting over not applying for matrics wont help now either). However not all who insist on medicine hail from sugar daddy family(top students included), one has to grind through the hard, cold and tougher road and extra efforts to prove the skeptics that he can be as dedicated, his work as delicate and top-notch as the reputable med docs trained in UK, Ire for example.
Now I have some questions which I hope those who has the know-hows can have some input: (and let say i am willing to work my way up the chain)
1: Singapore does not recognise russian degree. If I still harbour plans of working in Singapore (irregardless of future plans to return to malaysia or not), what are the options?
If I will work in Malaysia, what are the options (I refuse to wait for gov place of postgrad training-my skin colour and non-scholar factor, and am willing to squeeze the extra oil to pass elsewhere)
2. FaMa sponsored, I do still desire to have postgraduate training from a reputable place. Can I do it in UK after passing MRCP?
3. I have heard that there are as an exam, MRCP is easier to pass in Bangkok compared to MRCP in Singapore. How true is this?
4. If some light can also be shedded on nephrology, gastroenterology pathway.
thank you so much. and sorry for the long msg! Appreciate all help and guides
1) you need to sit and pass the NUH final year medical exams. Please contact SMC for further info. If you work in Malaysia, the options have been stated in my article.
2) MRCP is still recognised in malaysia but it does not get you a post to work in UK. Very unlikely you can work in UK unless you are going for a short term attachment, usually 1 year.
3) Depends on your luck
4) It is the same as any subspeciality pathway, please read my article on ” Step by Step aproach to subspecialty in internal medicine”
regarding your answer to 1), those papers are for entry to HO-ship in Singapore? or after my houseman in malaysia and then to apply?
What if I pass my MRCP after becoming MO in malaysia, will singapore accept me now (despite undergrad degree is not recognised there)
or Can I go there after becoming a specialist in malaysia first?
I read your article on step-to-step subspecialty as well. thank you very much for the information!
Even after horsemanship, you still need to sit for their entrance exam unless you have more than 5 years of service which they may consider.
Yes, after MRCP you can be accepted but not as a specialist. You may get a MO post and subsequently registra post if you get a training post.
Dear doctor,
Good day to U,
I wanted to work in s’pore . I’m a medical officer, graduated from AIMST university. I saw ur reply for chris to contact SMC. What is SMC doctor? Thank you.
-thila-
Singapore Medical Council. AIMST is not recognised in Singapore.
hai dr.pagalavan…thanks for the very informative blog… im a final year MBBS student (will be completing my studies in a month time) from a private university not recognised anywhere else but msia… im very much interested in pursuing my PG in surgery…i would want to have an international qualification (UK based), at least, for my postgraduation… at this moment im very much confused as to what i need to do… is there any means for me whom are an internationally unrecognised undergraduate to pursue surgery in UK?? would you mind to outline a path that could bring me there?
Thank you very much for you time and advise, sir.. have a good day.
Unfortunately, you got no choice. The only way to become a surgeon in Malaysia is via the local Master’s programme. You can’t go to UK to work as your degree is not recognised in UK. If you want to work in UK, you need to sit and pass the PLAB exam and then apply for internship post in UK. Passing PLAB does not mean you will get a job. Under the current immigration laws of UK, it is impossible for you to get a job in UK.
The other option is to do MRCS and then go to Singapore for FRCS training. Some of the centres in Singapore are recognised for FRCS training. After completing FRCS, you may be able to get a job in UK in areas of need.
thank you doctor….the second option sounds good… anyways sir, just out of curiosity, can i sit for the PLAB exam after my Msurg?
and, if opt for MRCS, where it can be done? i have looked up in their website but i could nt find any answer to my questions… if so i proceed with my MRSC, is there a way i can continue FRCS training in UK ?
thank you again sir… your time and advice are highly appreciated.
PLAB can be sat any time with no guarantee that they will recognise your past experience. However, I think you can forget about UK with the current prevailing immigration laws.
MRCS is usually done at Penang medical College. Pls contact them.
Passing MRCS does not mean anything. As I said, due to the current immigration laws, you won’t get a job in UK. However, you can apply for clinical attachments in UK as part of your training.
Thank you very much sir…… Now I have a clearer picture of my future
Dear Dr Pagavalan,
May i ask u for opthal, is there any other route to take up speciality in opthalmology besides going through the local masters programme??????
Is there any external examination (that is similar to MRCP/ MRCOG ect) for opthalmology which i can take?????How about FRCOphth/ FRCS????
One more thing, how bout the masters programme in Singapore ? are we allowed to apply and sit for it??? and if yes, is it recognised by Malaysian gov?????
I realised the process of waiting for Malaysian Masters Programme is really really disspointing at times, where u have to wait and wait and wait for your turn to come if u r unlucky.
Hope u can give me some guidance.
Thank you very much.
FRCS(opthal) is still recognised in Malaysia but only some hospitals are recognised training centres for this exam. You need to find out. If I am not mistaken, Tun Hussein Hospital is one of them.
Singapore Master’s is actually not recognised in Malaysia but may be considered on case by case basis.
hello. i really like your blog dr. i find it very valuable and informative. i have a question. i am planning to do my phd in australia. the thing is my husband is a local medical graduate. it would be very good if he can accompany me in australia but without having to take cuti tanpa gaji or better yet, do his specialization there. is it possible for him to work there as a medical doctor, eg working visa? and can he do his specialization there too?
thank you.
definitely, you can’t do specialisation. As for working, you need to have atleast AMC exam Part 1 if I am not mistaken. Sometimes, they may offer a temporary registration to work while you sit for AMC exam with a stipulated time period. however, I feel this is not applicable anymore.
hello. i really like your blog dr. i find it very valuable and informative. i have a question. i am planning to do my phd in australia. the thing is my husband is a local medical graduate. it would be very good if he can accompany me in australia but without having to take cuti tanpa gaji or better yet, do his specialization there. is it possible for him to work there as a medical doctor, eg working visa? and can he do his specialization there too?
who should i ask for further enquiry?
thank you.
Your husband will have to sit the Australian Medical Council (AMC) exam to be eligible to work – still no guarantee he can get a job after that (higher chances in the rural areas). He won’t be able to go straight into any specialisation. Go to the AMC website for more info.
You can contact Australian Medical Council for further info.
one more thing Dr., is there a MRC program for psychiatry?
many thanks
You mean MRCP? There is MRCP Pscyh and it is recognised in Malaysia. However, I don’t think this exam is conducted in Malaysia.
thank you for reply doctors, i really appreciate it. i see, is it the same structure as MRCP? and needs 18 months of training post MRCP Psych to be gazzetted as a specialist?
thanks again.
YES and 4 years experience in psychiatry.
one more thing Dr., is there a MRC program for psychiatry?
many thanks
hi dr, i would like to specialise in radiology. do you know which university do offer this programme as close system?
As far as I know only UM, UKM, USM and UPM offers Master’s in radiology.
Pagal
Morning sir, i would like to ask how do i apply via this close system? if this master programme can enter via close system, then why still many mo struggling to wait the turn and chance to be 3 years need high skt, need interview and get in. why they not apply straight through the University. thanks.
I don’t think you understand the process. The UNiversity offers a limited number of Master’s training post to doctors. This is offered to their own doctors(in university hospitals) as well as MOH doctors. This training can either be a close system ( all 4 years in the university hospital) or a open system (all 4 years in KKM hospital or partly). The TOTAL number of post is the same. Whether you take the close system or the open system ( which sometime is decided by the uni/MOH and NOT you) you still belong to MOH and paid by MOH. You are considered taking “cuti sambil belajar” while you are in Master’s programme.
The procedure is such that you need to fulfil all the requirements as mentioned above. The other option is for you to resign from MOH and join the university hospitals ( UM/UKM/USM) and try to apply directly. Of course, there is also no guarantee that you will get it as the politics are even greater.
is it means tat if i want to apply directly the master programme, i need to resign from MOH? if resign from moh i still a doctor?
then is it same as the one become trainee lecturer?
thks.
You can resign from MOH anytime as long as you have finished your housemanship. Then you need to apply for a post in university hospitals. The salary can be lower or higher. Yes, a shorter route will be to join as a “trainee lecturer” BUT again this is limited and many cables need to be pulled! Some university only offers trainee post to bumiputera.
No matter which way you try, the time period will almost be the same except for “trainee lecturer” scheme.
ic. now have better understanding about these master programme, very informative.
thanks a lot sir, Hv a nice day.
dear sir, may i know which university do offer master of radiology?can i apply this programme under close system and how?thanks
If I am not mistaken, radiology training is all close system.
Dr., may i know what are the benefits of joining the army as a doctor? i heard that there are alot of benefits, but not sure if career wise more chances to naik pangkat, clinical exposure, smbg studies etc.
thanks again.
THis was a comment that appeared in my blog recently “I’m one of the many Military MO-the glut to undergo postgraduate training slot is same like our colleagues in MOH. Worst part of it, before you apply for master programme, your must work with them at least 5 years and you must sign up as a REGULAR army and be ready to work until 55 COMPULSORY.
Now that’s the dilemma faced by most military MO. Majority don’t like it!”
Thanks sir for the re-post.
Do not hear a sweet talker rumor and consider it true. It happened like this, when there is influx of more and more MO/HO produced, competition is becoming tense and more strict because ministry got many choices of MO’s. They will make the circular or PEKELILING like above to curb the incoming glut.
In regard to benefit of joining military, there are far better BENEFIT if you STAY OUT from entering MO in military. I’m not discouraging and not patriotic- do not make me wrong.
For example, a welfare issue of LTAT (EPF/KWSP) in MOH. For Military Officer like MO-the caruman of LTAT/EPF is not compulsary. Even if you enrolling yourself to LTAT, the government WILL NOT ADD ON their ‘caruman’ to your account, not the same like our colleagues in MOH/private. Please, we prepare forging out our LATER DAY (PENSION) money TOTALLY by our own!
Frank statement: You only get the benefit if you work with them until minimum 55 (perhaps no more circular saying extension of contract until 60!)
Benefit for future clinical exposure: Not so.Too many cold cases you may see in military, someday will lose your clinical insight because you will always been ASKED for more admin job. Sure, many of MO don’t like it.
I make it up to be 3 cent, Dr Pagalavan…
caution: private don’t pay EPF(for consultants) except for medical officers who are employed in emergency department. MOH only pays EPF if you take the EPF scheme. If you take the pension scheme(must work till 58), no EPF is contributed. You don’t get anything if you resign early!
Wisdom advice: Joining medical military institution as you last choice. Free yourself. Too much Do and Don’ts.. (what you expect?Military maa..)
Dear Dr Pagavalan,
So do you mean that by doing FRCOphth, i still can specialise in opthalmology without going through Malaysian masters programme??? And most importantly it is recognised in Malaysia ???? I heard that u need to be gazzetted for 18 mths, just like any other MRCP , MRCOG etc holders?????
How about FRCS (Edinburgh) in Opthalmology? Is it recognized by MOH?
My main concern is that I will still have another route to do specialization in Opthalmology, even without depending on Malaysian Masters programme.
Hoping for your guidance.
Thank you very much.
FRCS Edinburgh(new regulation) is recognised but not FRCS(glasgow) which was derecognised since 2005. You can contact the respective college for further info. I am not very sure about the gazettement, whether it is 18 months or 6 months.
dear DR Pagavalan
how about getting the MBBS in bangalore, india..
what is you opinion??
which uni?
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Thank you for your insights. I have been following your writing for quite some time and I have to tell you (though of course you knew it already), it has been beneficial and eye-opening. I am a JPA scholar and currently a final-year med student from Cairo University. I’ll be having my final exams in few months time, thus I’m getting worrier with how my future will be once I come back home.
I will be much humbled if you care to answer my questions:
1. I hope I can make the right decision in choosing the hospital for my HOship. What are the points I should consider in choosing? In my mind, I wish to work somewhere where I can learn from the many and various cases available, but also not that very busy up to the point I cant do any reading. And is there any hospital you recommend, as I also heard that Sabah and Sarawak is also flooded now.
2. You have mentioned in your posts/comments before that it’s better to wait until we finish our HOship before deciding on which specialty we wish to pursue, correct? Right now I have A&E in mind, but I guess the only way to do it is via local Masters program. So do you still suggest me to take MRCP just in case I might change my mind. Because if that so, I thought if there’s ‘free time’ during my HO days, I might just as well study for Part 1. For your information, I haven’t thought of practising in places other than my home-country.
3. How early can I start applying for the Masters program? Is there anything that I can do to increase my chance of getting selected?
4.I have also been thinking of being a trainee lecturer. But I don’t really know how the workload is like, if you care to share, that’ll be delightful. And I heard if you become a trainee lecturer, the path is easier, but the pay is lower. And say if I’m interested in doing A&E, will i be asked to serve as a trainee lecturer in other subjects, or will it definitely be A&E
Thank you for your time.
1) With the current glut, I can’t say for sure which hospital is the best. Bigger hospital may have better pool of patients with all the subspeciality. But the current glut, not many housemen are getting enough opportunities to do procedures etc. Smaller hospital may give you better practical exposure. At the end, it is all up to you on how hard you want to work to gain knowledge.
2) Yes, for A&E, Master’s is the only way. Do what you are interested in. I have seen many who wanted to do this and that when they were students but changed their mind later. The way you see things when you are a student is different when you start to work.
3) After 2 years od HO and 2 years of MO.Having MRCS may increase your chances for Surgical post
4) Being a trainee lecturer means you need to resign from MOH and join MOHE under the university hospitals. The route will be shorter as you can get into the Master’s programme immediately after horsemanship. BUT you will be bonded with the university and the pay is lower now compared to MOH doctors.
Thank you Dr Pagalavan for your reply. If I can ask a few more questions:
1) Is it true that I heard, those having their HOship in Sabah and Sarawak have higher chances of getting into Masters program? And if so, is it on black and white or just mere word of mouth to increase number of HOs there?
2) Do University Hospital accept HOs too, now? And what do you think about doing HOship in University Hospital compared to governments’? Is it of more advantage in terms of learning and developing?
3) Do you mind sharing what is the work prospect of a trainee lecturer? I mean what kind of job
4) From my reading I understand that during HOship, we can choose (or be placed) in either A&E or Anaesthesiology for one of the posting. Is it actually possible to do both? So as to compare which one is more interesting to oneself.
Thank you Dr. May God bless you.
1) Yes but no guarantee. You will be given extra points when you apply for Master’s and subspeciality training.
2) University Hospitals have been accepting housemen since 1970s. This include UH, HUKM and HUSM. In terms of academic learning, university hospitals are better but practical training, MOH hospitals are better.
3) You work as a MO in the university hospital and then get into their Master’s programme. You will continue to work as a MO and registra till you graduate. After that you will be bonded with the university as a lecturer. being in university means you need to do research, teaching as well as working.
4) NO unless you do it after horsemanship
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Thank you for your insights. I have been following your writing for quite some time and I have to tell you (though of course you knew it already), it has been beneficial and eye-opening. I’ll be having my final exams in few months time, thus I’m getting worrier with how my future will be once I come back home.
I will be much humbled if you care to answer my questions:
1. I hope I can make a right decision in choosing the hospital for my HOship. What are the points I should consider in choosing? In my mind, I wish to work somewhere where I can learn from the many and various cases available, but also not that very busy up to the point I cant do any reading. And is there any hospital you recommend, as I also heard that Sabah and Sarawak is also flooded now.
2. You have mentioned in your posts/comments before that it’s better to wait until we finish our HOship before deciding on which specialty we wish to pursue, correct? Right now I have A&E in mind, but I guess the only way to do it is via local Masters program. So do you still suggest me to take MRCP just in case I might change my mind. Because if that so, I thought if there’s ‘free time’ during my HO days, I might just as well study for Part 1.
3. How early can I start applying for the Masters program? Is there anything that I can do to increase my chance of getting selected?
4.I have also been thinking of being a trainee lecturer. But I don’t really know how the workload is like, if you care to share, that’ll be delightful. And I heard if you become a trainee lecturer, the path is easier, but the pay is lower. And say if I’m interested in doing A&E, will i be asked to serve as a trainee lecturer in other subjects, or will it definitely be A&E
Thank you for your time.
dear dr pagalavan,
im a medical officer currently completing my fourth year service with the gov…im not bonded….recently i received an offer from a private hospital as a resident mo….i would like to know the prospects of being in an private hospital…thank you
Resident MO in a private hospital means you are doing shift duty in their emergency department. That’s about it. Sometimes the consultant may ask your help to set branulla or to see a patient in a ward after office hours, if there is a problem. Resident MO in a private hospital does not mean you are going to follow consultant rounds etc etc like GH. There is no prospect actually other then being a chronic MO.
hello doctor,im a third year medical student from management and science university(MSU),shah alam….upon the completion of the course….i need to do my 2 years housemanship in local hosp.and 3 yrs government service…but can i do my general surgery directly upon completion of my hsemanship??because i wanted to become cardiothoracic surgeon…for that,i need to do general surgery first….i planned to do it in glasgow….can u help me in this??
Firstly, your MSU degree is NOT recognised elsewhere. This means you can’t go to UK or any other country for training/work.
The only option is to do the LOcal Master’s in Surgery programme which you can apply after 2 years of MOship (total 4 years of service). After completing Master’s in surgery (4 years), you need to do 6 months of gazettement and wait another 1 year before going into Cardiothoracic Training programme which is another 4 years.
Hi sir,
I came across your blog while researching work in Malaysia. I am a graduate from Ireland and had recently finished MRCP(UK) while working there. i have moved back home a few months back and am looking to work here. I have been to KKM and was told that I had to be gazetted before becoming a specialist. They also said that I will be sent to district hospital for this.My question is, can I apply to universities like UKM, USM or UITM instead of MOH for gazettement process? If so, what are the pros and cons of working with universities? I don’t mind teaching and of course would like to stay close to my family
Yes, you need to be gazetted to become a specialist. This usually involves atleast 4 years of medical training and atleast 6 months of gazettement process (based on current guideline). You can be sent to any hospital with a specialist for this purpose.
You can apply to go to UH, HUKM and HUSM. However these unis have their own system and gazettement process. You must understand that you need to complete 4 years compulsory service with the government. You need to do teaching, do research and work. The salary at the moment is less compared to MOH/KKM.
UiTM do not have their own hospital. You will be working as a normal MO in a government hospital, either Sg Buloh or Selayang Hospital. Thus, the same KKM gazettement process may apply
Dear Dr. Pagal,
I have recently completed MD from a university in Indonesia. Before starting medicine I was keen is pursuing but after the first year I got interested in the research field. Clinical Research ( combining Ayurveda and Nutritient ) some how the idea of preventing disease seems appealing to me compared to tempro relieve from drugs. Curbing disease such as cancer with the help of nutritient seem to really interest me. I read research jounels almost everyday… I am very keen in taking up a research masters. My parents don’t really support my idea and they seem very skeptical with the Research Field. I have no options but to start my internship. Dr, could you please advice me where I could presue a Research Masters in Malaysia and what sort of future will I have if I do so Dr. Thank you so much.
Research is still underdeveloped in Malaysia. You can try the public universities like UM, UKM and USm or UNIMAS.
Thank you Dr. , well doctor nothing is developed in Malaysia 🙂 I love reading your blog and Bravo! Thank you
hi doctor….im currently pursuing my 3rd year in htar under management and science university…i would like to ask u,issit compulsary to do 3 years of m.o here??its because i planned to continue my f.r.c.s in glasgow after housemanship direct….can u consult me on this doctor?
I thought I have already replied you before. MSU degree is NOT recognized elsewhere. You can’t go anywhere else to do your post grad.
YOur only option is to do local Master’s program. You can forget about going to UK even if you sit and pass your PLAB exam.
You are already in 3rd year, and you do not realise your degree is not recognised out of Msia? What has MSU been telling you?
oh my god….there is not other option ah doctor???theres no way to me to do f.r.c.s??
You can’t do FRCS in Malaysia. One other option is to do MRCS and go to SIngapore if they can offer you a MO post. The chances are very slim though!
omggg…..its so sad…i dont know what to do doctor..m so blurrr right now
That’s the reason why I started this blog. Many people out there DO NOT know these facts. Many still think that they can go anywhere with any MBBS degree!! Reality will hit them when they graduate. Colleges are there just to make money out of our ignorance.
doctor..actually,the first batch will be graduated in 2013.So,the management told all the students that once the first batch has graduated,,..it will be fully recognized.
What they mean is Malaysian recognition! MMC will recognised MSU once the first batch is in final year. IT HAS nothing to do with international recognition!
One of the purpose of this blog is to educate the public and future students about medical field
i should read ur blog earlier before entering the university..i made a big mistake..and its too late…i dont know what i should do now….:-(
you got no choice other then finishing it and hope for the best with local Master’s programme.
mmm 🙂 thk u doctor
Dear Dr. Pagal,
Thank you so much for your wonderful and inspiring article. I am an MO in anaesth department in government hospital. I am interested in ophthalmology and am currently applying for trainee lecturer in ophthalmology unit in an university.
After reading your article I feel like giving up ophthalmology. I really love ophthalmology but i can’t agree with you more that master programmes offered by Malaysia are not easy to get.
Here are my questions
1. I went through the website (Malaysia – National Specialist Register). There are about 10 master programmes for ophthalmology from overseas recognised in Malaysia. Is there anyway I can apply for any of these programmes or are they just part of the master programmes offered by Malaysia universities?
2. I wonder if the wiser choice would be MRCP or MRCPCH if I want to get to be specialist faster instead of being stuck in govenrment hospital as a chronic MO forever? You mention that the structure of MRCP and MRCPCH exams are almost the same. Can I ask how are the popularity of the exams, difficulties and passing mark for them?
3. I was told that i can apply for master programme faster if i get to be a trainee lecturer in hospital universities. Do you know if I need to go through the whole long applications procedures if i want to apply master from these universities? Can I get a master programme from overseas that is internationally recognised through these universities?
4. I applied for IMR and IPR as well. How do you think about the prospect of research in Malaysia? If i get the master programme in research would it be internationally recognised?
Thank you so much in advance.
1) In order for you to do these degrees you must be able to go overseas to do it. This depends on whether your basic degree is recognised in these countries. FRCS(Oprhal) is still recognised in Malaysia and can be done here but only certain hospitals are accreditated training centres. Try asking the university hospitals for further info.
2) It is always better to do something that you have real interest in. No point doing something just for the sake of getting a specialist degree. you will regret it later. These exams passing rate is below 50% generally.
3) Once you are accepted into lecturer training programme, you will automatically be in the Master’s program under the university quota. You need to resign from MOH and joint MOHE.
4) None of the Master’s degree is recognised internationally except for some middle east countries. You seem to be shooting all over the place. Always do one at a time. Are you really interested in research? Ask yourself. Not everyone can do research as their career.
Dear Dr. Pagal,
Thank you for your information. I have searched the internet. FRCOphth exam centres are in London, India and etc. It is not available in Malaysia. However FRCSEd is widely available and one of the exam centres is KL.
I am not very sure what is the difference between them and there are not much information on FRCSEd over the internet. I hope I can sit for the exam in April next year.
If I am not mistaken only FRCS(edin) is recognized in Malaysia. The part 1 can be sat in Malaysia but for Part B &C, you need to undergo training In a recognized training centre before being able to sit for the exam. Pls find out from the college regarding this.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I am a semi-retired engineer and a keen follower of your writings. Please allow me to air some of my views.
1. You are doing a great service to this nation. You have almost limitless patience in answering many queries and in most cases, same queries over and over again.
2. Many aspiring doctors did not go through your blog from the beginning and it seems to me, many of them did not do their homework and expect to be spoon feed by you. If they have done their part in reading more of your writings, they could have saved you plenty of time in repeating the answers. That’s why IMHO, you are an exemplary medical educator.
3. If soon-to-be doctors seem lazy to do their own research by reading your blog from A-Z, or if they cannot understand your writings, then I don’t think they have the acumen to be a good doctor. Just not passionate enough!
4. As an engineer, I could have provided many of the answers to their queries, not because I am smart but because I read and understand your writings. The answers are in your writings. Can’t they read?
5. Some criticize you for being negative but IMHO, they missed the big picture of your noble intentions. No doubt constructive criticism is welcome and we can always spot it but many are just half-past six and refused to listen or want to listen only to good news.
6. How many times must you state that there is always room for good doctors and intake criteria is of paramount importance in maintaining quality? How many times must you state that we are not talking about exceptions? How many times must you mention that NON of our medical schools are recognized in Britain or Oz?
Future doctors, I appeal to you all to put in the extra hours in reading Dr. Paga’s writings from the beginning so that he can have more time to do more useful things for all of us.
Frankly, sometimes I feel tired reading the same questions being asked again and again and I salute Dr. Paga (and also Nav etc) in answering everyone of them. I think this is a FAIR request.
Last but not least,please remember that Dr. Paga is human and not perfect (who is?) but I will give him an A++ for his contributions. You will simply not find another website that offers so much information on medical education & practice in Malaysia.
My humble apologies if anyone of you is offended.
Thanks for your comment. I wonder the same!
Sent from my iPad
Hi Andy,
I agree with what you say … Dr P has provided a valuable resource for those considering a career in medicine and for those in the system who are planning the next step in their career.
As someone involved in medical education, I can’t help but feel frustrated when people write in asking for really basic information. Information that they can easily find out themselves if they took the time to either read thru the blog, search the net themselves or speak to a senior colleague in their hospital. Everyone wants to be spoonfed.
I suspect this is a symptom of our education system which rewards rote memorisation and regurgitation of facts. Critical thinking and active learning are discouraged by the system. The problem is, real life does not work that way. The more progressive medical schools (and there are some in Malaysia as well) have implemented syllabi that promote active learning but always face obstacles from students and their parents.
The common excuse is this: “We have paid RM XX,XXX for fees and yet they decrease the number of lectures and handouts, and expect us to do our own reading”. Problem-Based Learning isn’t implemented properly because students invariably ‘just want the answers’ rather than going thru the process of learning.
This will continue to be a problem until we overhaul our education system. Easy to say of course, but not very easy to do.
I agree with you that Dr Paga repeated the same answers…..This only shows the doctor to be do not feel like reading……
First of all, thanks so much for the bare-all truth about the impending complications that prospective graduates are about to face. As a third year student of a local college, it’s nice to have a honest look at things so that one can plan ahead.
I’ve done my homework about the USMLE (or so I hope I have) and if all goes well, will be embarking on it soon. Many websites and forums I’ve visited have extolled the importance of clinical experience in the States, which is also the presumable source of the ever-important LORs.
As I’d like a fair chance at a non Internal Med residency (ambitious as that may be, haha) have you heard of any medical students doing an academic year over at the States? I’m of the impression that brief elective-style externships aren’t gonna be much weight to solidify one’s application, as compared to the local US graduates. I see some US med schools offering externships that last a few weeks long – are those sufficient, in your opinion?
Thanks again for all the help. Your patience in dealing with repetitive questions is admirable, to say the least. 🙂
If primary care specialties are not in your consideration, you would need to put in extra efforts to build up your CV besides great board scores for no guarantee that you would get a single interview. Most IMGs who get into surgical specialties have done some research in the States or have gone through 1 to 2 years of prelim, some are already specialists from their home countries, A senior of mine who got into urology has spent the last 3 years doing research in a big program and finally got accepted into his specialty of choice. Doing research (most voluntarily) or getting into prelim programs can both increase your chances in getting interview calls from competitive specialties. But never do your prelim on J1, you will be bound to leave US for 2 years after the completion of prelim year.
Electives in the States (can only be done before graduation from med school) is important for you to get USCE and of course LORs, which are of utmost importance besides step scores.
Ah, how grim and tedious it all is. Still, we ought to persevere – what’s a medical career without the constant hurdles to jump over? Thanks for the advice, though, and I will be taking into consideration these factors before deciding when exactly to start with Step 1.
A surgical specialty is definitely attractive, but getting there will prove to be arduous. Even so, I would consider myself to be an in am embryonic phase of medical life and am so still unprepared to decide a specific field in which to specialize. My primary focus, and one of the reasons I’m doing the USMLE in the first place – is to try and open some doors, so if ever there was a chance, I could give it a shot.
It’s nice to know that there are Malaysians around who are familiar with the system. Have you completed all three steps? You seem very versed with the American system.
Frankly speaking, I hardly see anyone getting a post in US nowadays. Probably due to stiff competition from Middle East and Indian subcontinent candidates. I think ‘soulmate’ has given you some of the answers.
Well I’m from a twinning college – half Indian, half Malaysian – so I think it’s fair if I just work hard and see where life takes me. No harm in trying, eh?
Hello/ Salam Dr.,
I am a Romanian national married to a Malaysian citizen, currently residing in Kelantan.
I have obtained my Medical Degree in Romania in 2011 (Unrecognized University by the MMC) and I wish to proceed with the Provisional Registration, as I have not started any medical Internship.
For this, I am required to sit the Medical Qualifying Examination at one of the Examination Centres in Malaysia, and I have noticed how little information everyone has given me regarding the MQE about the date or month. I have been following your blog since it provides useful information and advice. Any further information would be kindly received, regarding the MQE (type of test, is it in English, theory/clinical) and general information about the Housemanship. I am currently learning a bit of Malay, is it mandatory for the Housemanship Programme?
Also, it possible to apply for the Housemanship in a different states from where I will sit my MQE.
As an example, sitting the exam at USM Kelantan and applying for a Housemanship position at Penang General Hospital.
Any information is welcomed and appreciated.
adrian_tiger2006@yahoo.com
Facebook: Adrian Tolan
Thank you very much,
Kind Regards,
Adrian Tolan
Yes, you need to sit for MQE exams. You will need to apply to MMC and MMC will decide where you will be sitting for the exams. There is NO standardized exam. You sit the final year exams of the respective university. It is in English but the curriculum and exam format depends on which university you are going to be allocated.
After passing MQE, you need to apply to MOH for postings. MOH will decide where you will be posted once you are accepted. No guarantee that you will be given a job.
Yes, you will Need to learn Malay for communication purposes.
Thank you for your reply. So, therefore, the examination centre will be decided by the MMC and hospital posting by the Ministry of Health? No job is ever guaranteed anywhere … back home in Romania, or even in the UK, but we are establishing in Penang at the moment, and, to be dispatched in a random state to work would not be… quite practical after settling in. Is it really like that?
Thank you again, hats off for your blog and all the information provided + debates. Great work!
Yes, MOH can send you anywhere they like depending on availability of post. You can put your choices but it is up to MOH to decide. If I were you, I will not relocate till I get a posting.
As I have mentioned before I explained my situation about my dad to one of doctor colleague and he started ranting and raving at me saying we don’t know how much they are struggling to do their work. I am not disputing that doctors are not doing work but very minimum effort is taken to explain to the family members of the patient on how to take care of the patient before discharge, I think the amount of care and support the patient gets after discharge is equally important in order to prevent further complications, so proper adequate advice is needed. Many of the young doctors ( NOT ALL)nowdays are very very inconsiderate,impolite, arrogant even to the considerate patients and their families. If you think it is difficult to handle, just don’t be a doctor. Do something else.Atleast you are not hurting yourself and others.
hi doc im a malaysian , i would like u to assist me on something
i graduated from a bulgaria med school year 2009 and currently doin my pg in dermatology in manipal india???do i still have to sit for mqe exam to get myself registered with mmc???as i was reading thru the mmc website under the type of registration i came across full registration with condition
If the basic medical degree was awarded by a NON-recognized institution, applications from Malaysian and non-Malaysian may be considered if he/she possesses postgraduate medical degrees with not less than THREE years of clinical experience;so my question is will my application be considered after im done with my pg in india????
That only applies if the postgraduate degree is recognised as well. Now … what postgraduate degrees are recognised? I am not sure. MMC only accredits primary medical qualifications at this stage. The National Specialist Register and AMM are meant to accredit postgraduate qualifications but legislation has not yet been passed.
I have seen a list of postgraduate qualifications linked somewhere here on this blog and am quite sure there was no Manipal dermatology there. On the other hand, MOH gets contract doctors from Pakistan/India/Bangladesh whose postgrad degrees are also not on that list … so there must be a loophole somewhere. It might be that these are special temporary registrants – I’m not sure.
I suspect you will have problems getting specialist registration here with a Manipal postgrad.
PG from India is generally not recognized in Malaysia. Some PG like internal medicine and surgery can be considered after 5 years of experience. As far as I now, Masters in Dermatogy from Manipal is NOT recognized in Malaysia and thus, you need to fall back to your undergraduate degree. Since your undergraduate degree is not recognized, MQE might still need to be sat.
thx for ur reply doc…any suggestion on wat i shall do???
sit for MQE
hi doc im a malaysian , i would like u to assist me on something
i graduated from a bulgaria med school year 2009 and currently doin my pg in dermatology in manipal india???do i still have to sit for mqe exam to get myself registered with mmc???as i was reading thru the mmc website under the type of registration i came across full registration with condition
If the basic medical degree was awarded by a NON-recognized institution, applications from Malaysian and non-Malaysian may be considered if he/she possesses postgraduate medical degrees with not less than THREE years of clinical experience;so my question is will my application be considered after im done with my pg in india????
any other comments regarding my post ??
Dear Dr,
I am foreign physician and i want to sit for MQE malaysia. i tried to contact the mmc but they dont reply. I want to know what time of the year are the exams taken and how to do registration from abroad. Plus what type of exam is it? the licensing exam in middle east is a mcq based…in Australia its the AMC, PLAB in UK and USMLE in US…but what about the MQE…the MMC website says its on par with the final year mbbs. but does that mean a person who is already doing career in medicine has to again go through surgery and gynae+obs for the MQE along with short and long bed side cases? will be helpful if u can clarify.
Thanks
Unfortunately, YES. BTW MMC never replies! There is NO standardised MQE exams in Malaysia. You sit the final year exam of the 16 appointed medical schools. Each school have their own curriculum and exam format.
Sometimes MMC may consider certain application based on number of years of service but very unlikely they will do this for a foreigner.
haha. thanks for the quick reply, but to proceed with whom should i actually contact? and also the dates of the exams…can u help?
MMC! there are no specific dates. Once MMC appoints the medical school where you are going to sit for the exam, the medical school will then contact you on the exam dates.
Oh and another thing I wanted to know is my graduating medical school falls into the list of unscheduled universities [under section 12(1) (aa) of medical act 1971] who are eligible to sit for the Malaysian Medical Qualification exam. So u have any idea about this?
Means you are eligible to sit for MQE
Hi Dr,
I’ve been following your blog, interesting and informative.
I’m a medical officer who’s now working in klinik kesihatan. Would like to know what is the future like Msc anti aging, regenerative and aesthetic medicine in malaysia? And what kind of furute carrierMmed Physiology as offered by UIA, AIMST can lead to? is there any benefit if I take any of them and still be in government?
Aesthetic medicine basically means you are glorified beautician. Even though it is a recognised branch of medicine worldwide but it is NOt a speciality, atleast inMalaysia. The litigation rate is also higher and thus the high indemnity insurance. At the moment there is no proper regulation in monitoring these aesthetic practitioners and MOH is in the process of coming up with it.Everyone seem to be jumping into this purely for money.
Mmed physiology is to become a physiology lecturer in universities.You need to join the public university in order to get any benefit. Worthless if you remain in KKM.
Hello there doc. I am about to continue my MBBS next year. I would like to know, if I study in local private universities, can i do my housemanship outside of Malaysia? What are the universities that their MBBS are being accredited outside of Malaysia?
I have answered and written about this so many times. You should spend. more time reading this blog.
The answer is NO. ONly Monash is recognised in australia but chances to get a post is almost Nil from next year onwards.
Dear Dr,
I am a 2nd year medical student from UniKL Royal College of Medicine Perak. I’m planning to sit for the Step 1 USMLE exam ard july nex yr.
Is sitting for the usmle exam a right choice for me?? Are the contents we study in a local institute up to level for such examination? what are the chances of securing a residency posting in US from this institute? what estimated score do i need in order to secure a seat?
You hv mentioned previously that the step 1 is on basic medical science. however, it seems much more clinical to me from the first aid questions n answers book by macgraw hill. Is it proper to sit for the exam after 2nd yr of basic med science studies or should i wait till i finish the whole 5 yr medical programme to hv clinical knowledge?
im sorry to ask too many questions in 1 go. Would really appreciate ur insight on this. thank you Dr.
You can sit for Step 1 of USMLE anytime before you graduate. You must understand that even if you pass Step 1 , the chances of you passing the rest of the steps is not going to be easy if you have not done any attachment in US. Thus, chances of you getting a job is also very slim. I think a lot of these questions has been answered in this blog. I give you 1 example:
But then again you might also want to know that only around 50% of IMGs (International Medical Graduates – this includes you and probably a couple of thousand more Indian and Pakistani doctors) will be able to match into a residency each year. You see, passing the USMLE doesn’t guarantee you a job as you’ll need to apply for a residency yourself (through the ECFMG). It’s a time-consuming process and costs roughly 10-15000 USD. Plus, you can pretty much forget about all the competitive specialties, namely dermatology, radiology, plastic surgery etc; you won’t stand a chance unless you score something like 270+ on the Steps.
That’s just of the tip of the iceberg. There are basically two types of working visas for foreigners in the US: J-1 and H1-B. Most employers will only sponsor the J-1 visa which is a temporary visa and you’ll be required to leave once the visa expires. The other better one is the H1-B, which qualifies you for the “Green” card, but is subject to a federal government quota, thus making it harder to obtain.
You see, passing USMLE do not guarantee you a post. I know one guy who left to US in 2005 to sit for his Step 2 etc. Only in 2008, he manage to get a residency post in Internal Medicine. Even after that , he could not get a fellowship post thus wanted to come back to Malaysia.
Thank you Dr.
I am interested in doing neurosurgey. I found out in malaysia direct entrance is difficult and i’ve been told that only USM has the direct programme. For other places in malaysia, you have to pass general surgery first. What are my options? Isn’t there a way not to go through general surgery or do i have to do my subspecialty in other countries? And if so, which country is advisable?
You obviously already know the pathway in Malaysia.
Your options for going overseas depends on your undergraduate degree being recognised in the countries you would like to work in. If not recognised, you have to sit an entrance test. Either way, a foreign graduate will be at the back of the queue for a training programme like neurosurgery.
The only way is either via the USM Master’s in neurosurgery or subspeciality after General Surgery. You can’t do your training overseas if your basic medical degree is not recognised elsewhere.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I’m a medical officer in govt service. Most of my questions that i wondered before already asked by others and already answered concisely by you above. I have some other questions and would be glad if you can share your opinion.
1) what is the future of public health specialist if 1care system implemented?
2) what is your opinion about occupational health medicine in oil and gas company ? From where can we obtain the postgrad degree in occupational health if i would like to work with private industries?
3) what is your comment about traditional and complementary medicine courses offered by MOH for postgraduate training. I noticed MOH started to send doctors to overseas to learn about acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal chinese medicine, ayurveda, nutritional therapy, integrative medicine etc since about 2 years ago.. What are the future for these fields?
4) what do you think about master courses offered by MOH that not as well known as MMED like master in health admin, health planning,health economics medical law, clinical governance etc.majority of the courses offered overseas.. Any future by doing masters in these area:something rare, new and less competitive?
5)i noticed a lot of comments above talk about working in singapore, what about brunei?
Thank you.
1) Not sure at the moment. Public health specialist will still be a government job under health departments. However, the clinical doctors may be transferred to the 1Care corporate company later on, sort of corporatisation.
2) Try UKM. I know a few who got Occupational health degree from UKM and working in oil & gas industries.
3) As far as I know, I don’t remember seeing any doctors being sent to do TCM. NON -doctors, yes but not doctors. Under the Medical Act, you can’t practise complementary medicine together with modern medicine.
4) IN overseas, these are new fields which do have a good role. Unfortunately, in Malaysia, it is still underdeveloped. Medical Law is a good field since the litigation rate is going up. However, in government service, it may not give you any additional benefit as it is not a specialist post.
5) Brunei do pay you well but most people get bored staying there.
Dear Doctor, Can local MBBS holders (UM, UKM or IMU) apply for Master in Public Health(Post graduate training) in UK, Aus orUSA? Are they qualified to take such course?
I don’t so since your degree is not recognised there.
DrL,
You could have found this information out yourself by consulting Drs Google and Wikipedia, and getting more detailed info by then asking these questions directly to the bodies concerned. It took me 10 minutes and I have no background in Public Health.
In the US, you can study MPH at various universities. Cost will not be cheap. The Council for Education on Public Health accredits these schools.I don’t think you need medical registration in the US to study these courses but well worth asking.
The UK and Aus/NZ also have university courses (again, expensive unless you are a citizen/PR) and a specialist college that accredits you as a specialist. I am not fully aware of the difference between getting a MPH and going thru formal training via the college, although technically a nurse could do MPH (and many do) but specialist college training is usually only open to medical professionals (though it may be different for public health because you don’t actually treat patients).
The UK’s Faculty of Public Health is a faculty under the Royal College of Physicians whereas the Australasian Faculty of Public Health Medicine is under the Royal Australasian College of Physicians.
Dear Nav, Thanks for your info. Had actually checked the websites of various UK universities such as UCL and Manchester before posting my question here. The entry qualification is MBBS and other healthcare professionals. Had emailed UCL , but have yet to receive their reply. the reason why I posted my question here is hoping to receive a quick feedback from DrPaga or anyone (like u) while still waiting for UCL’s reply.
Dear Dr.
I am a graduate of medicine in Afghanistan with M.D. I am teaching Neurology and Psychiatry and also practicing Psychiatry since 10 years. I am offered a Master of Medicine (Psychiatry) in UKM for four years. Prior to that 1-2 semester non-graduate and also 6 months clinical attachment. If I take on this chance and do this masters, what are the chances for me to practice abroad especially in Canada? What about the chances to practice in Singapore, UK, Australia or staying to practice in Malaysia? Appreciated your great instructions and advise. Best Regards,
Master’s from Malaysia is NOT recognised elsewhere and thus you won’t be able to practise in any of the countries mentioned.
As for Malaysia, it depends on vacancy and MMC registration.
Dear dr, thank you for the good postings.
I am a plastic surgeon in one of the MOH hospitals in the Klang Valley and is a product of the subspecialty Masters programme under USM. I have read that you think the subspecialty trainings are all useless and a waste of time. Please allow me to explain from our perspective ie as far as plastic surgery training is concern as I cannot comment on other fields.
First, after being incorporated into the MOH Plastic Surgery department after my Masters graduation, I have to undergo the necessary 6 months gazzettement period. My Consultant plastic surgeon, who is a JUSA and went through the system of becoming a general surgeon first, gazzetted me and I am currently running on auto-pilot mode, fully appreciating the trust given to me.
Second, we have to fully understand the concept of our subspecialty training before making any judgment. To become a plastic surgeon, we didn’t just ” go into master for 4 years and then called us plastic surgeons”..
our training consisted of 2 years initial basic exposure in a recognized general surgical centre, performing the necessary procedures ie appendicectomy, laparotomy, hernia repair…in fact I had exposure in neurosurgery doing craniotomy, shunt insertion as well as urology, vascular and breast surgery PRIOR to joining the masters programme.
In the subspecialty training ie masters in plastic surgery, we underwent a concentrated 4 years training only in plastic surgery.
This is where I want to explain to you that Plastic Surgery, is a totally different field than general surgery. The basic principle, the cutting technique, the concept are 180 degrees turn than general surgery. Thus, the 2 years prerequisite of general surgery training with proper log book is mandatory before we were even accepted for interviews.
As far as I am concern, my training is adequate to allow me to function as a basic plastic surgeon, not a consultant with 15 years experience. I also knew my general surgeons friends who are also doing subspecialty in plastic and as I’ve mention earlier, the concept is totally different. We do not operate extensively for I intra abdominal organs but we can confidently find our ways around the rectus abdominis muscle for a flap reconstruction.
Again, thank you for a nice blog.
sincerely,
MOH Specialist
Thanks for your comment. I think you got the wrong impressions of what I am trying to say. I never said that ALL sub speciality training are useless in MOH. I was mainly talking about some sub speciality training in MOH hospitals where NO proper senior GOOD consultants are available.
Some of the training is more of self training!
Master’s of Plastic surgery is TOTALLY a different ball game.
Dr, can you name those sub speciality trainings that you think are useless in MOH with no proper senior GOOD consultants? and also those are more of self training? Thanks.
I think it is not appropriate for me to say it over here. You can email me for further info.
Dear dr,
May I add just a little bit on the training aspect so as to paint a clear picture of how it went through.
In the Masters of Plastic Surgery subspecialty training programme we need to complete the training in all modules if plastic surgery ie; craniofacial,aesthetic,microsurgery,paediatric and burn surgery. We presented in seminars,attended conferences, completed a plastic surgery/ reconstructive based thesis and of course filled our log book of at least 800 to 1000 plastic surgery cases within the masters duration.
After completing all 4 years,( we underwent yearly assessment by a local consultant and a foreign plastic surgeon,from uk,canada,australia,korea,singapore etc) then we will sit for the final exam.
The examiner will be a board-certified plastic surgeon from oversea as well as a local consultant too.
So as we can see,it is a very structured programme.
Thank you
I have personally seen and worked with Plastic Surgeons from the Masters programme. Some were exceptionally good, some were shockingly poor (and worse still, had no insight into their shortcomings, making them the most dangerous type of surgeon).
I think the consistency of their practical hands-on experience was quite variable, but to a degree, the same could be said of any surgical training system in the world. The better ones get allowed to do more, get more skilled, then get allowed to do even more etc. The reverse situation also holds true.
The best training systems however, have a way of ensuring a consistent level of minimum quality. And I think this is where the Malaysian system lags behind that of the developed nations.
“Dr, can you name those sub speciality trainings that you think are useless in MOH with no proper senior GOOD consultants? and also those are more of self training? Thanks.”
Dear Eddy,
I hope you are not intentionally trying to get Dr. Paga into trouble. Of course, he is a lot wiser than you think.
No. The intention is to know which are the USELESS sub speciality trainings so as NOT to waste our time for these trainings.
Dear eddy,
You don’t seem to get the message. Would you like to unintentionally harm the goose that lays the golden eggs?
Would you unintentionally kill the patient while attempting to cure the disease? Sometimes intention alone is not good enough. Be street smart. Have a nice day.
Dear Pagalavan,
Let me help you to update your info on the USMLE and the apportunities available in the USA.For reasons beyond my comprehension you seem to have a negative view of this exams and certainly grey as to the apportunities for employment in the USA.
Certainly today the student Union in Australia has mentioned that local Australian graduates are waiting for 6-12 months before they are able to secure any job.As of 2012 ,Australia will have no shortage of doctors.Plans to address this shortage was implemented 6 years ago.The Last group graduating from Monash ,JB only 2 graduates were able to secure a job in Australia
Malaysians with Plabs are returning home as they are unable to secure any jobs in the UK.Surely the scenario looks bleak.
However in the USA IN 2012,MORE THAN 10,6000 INTERNATIONAL GRADUATES SECURED JOBS AFTER PASSING THE Usmle Step 1 & 2 CK&CS.This is true and you can check the facts.
You claim that the exams are tough,that’s not true,many from private Universities in Malaysia nave completed their Steps while attending medical college.This is contrary to your earlier belief that private medical schools lack quality.
Of Course if the steps score is 220 ,you are eligible for specialisation in public health and community medicine.However if the scores are 240 and above one can match for all the surgical disciplines inclusive of dermatology and Neurosurgery.On completion of the residency one can embark on the next three -four years on specialisation. The residency pays US40,000-60,000
As a specialist one is expected to earn US200,000-600,000 dollars.Those
disciplines where the scores were better earns bigger dollars.
Under the current scenario ,with more than 3500 houseman joining service and 5000 the next year,your prediction of delays in employment is truer than before.The group that passed out in Sept 2012 is still waiting and they hope to secure their job perhaps after 4months after graduting,a scenario never seen before.
Overall it would be seen to be lucrative and sensible to head for the USA after sitting for the USMLE Step 1 & the CK locally especially if they are students , pursuing their housemanship or medical officers especially when i am told that a local medical college is having a live ,on site course next year .
This would lessen the concerns of doctors currently in practise who have hopes and aspirations to pursue their post graduate courses in the near future.
Just for your information there are more than 2000 over medical graduates from Manipal University in the best paying jobs in America and i personally have more than 60 classmates who are in excellent jobs across disciplines in the USA.
Rainaseyr
Thank you for the comment. Actually, I got no issues with whomever who wants to take USMLE exams.It is up to them BUT most of them feel that by just passing this exam, they are going to get a residency post in US automatically. This is NOt correct. Passing USMLE do not guarantee you a job and that is what I am saying all this while. These exams are also NOT cheap.
I am not sure where you got your facts, pls send me the link if possible.
Based on my research and the health facts card from ECFMG:http://www.ecfmg.org/forms/factcard.pdf out of 11 134 IMG participants of National Residency Matching Program, only 44% (4886) were matched. Out of this 4 886, 2 102(49%) were US citizens! So, I got no idea where you got the figure of 10 600 IMG getting a job in US.
Furthermore, if you look at the ECFMG annual report over here:http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/ECFMG-2011-annual-report.pdf, the passing rate of USMLE can range from 66% to 80% for the respective parts. Malaysia is not even in the top 45 countries from where an ECFMG certificate were issued. India is of course the top in the list for IMGs, almost 16%..
This is what I am trying to tell the students. By all means, they can go ahead and sit for the exams BUT it does not guarantee them a post in US, after spending the money. When you mentioned 2000 medical graduates from manipal , I presume you are talking about Manipal India. 2000 over how many years? How many graduates do manipal produces per year? this are important facts and figures that need to be considered before comparing.
Thanks for the info but it seems like you are a bit over optimistic regarding the chances of getting into US residency.
In fact it is getting tougher these years to get a residency spot in the States, and I believe the situation will be worsened in the coming years due to the expanding US medical intakes and 2-3 new medical schools are being set up every year with the total number of residency positions remains unchanged.
Please allow me to put forth some facts here.
1. The passing rates for Step 1 and Step 2 CK among IMG (International Medical Graduates) first time takers are around 70%. And believe me, from all the information that I have gathered, you won’t get a single interview if you merely passed. Most residency programs have a cut off score (of course is not revealed) that has to be met by IMG before they will even look at your CV. Most of my seniors who were matched succesfully had scored 230 and above. (~220 is the mean with s.d. of around 20)
2. Getting 240 and above does not guarantee you anything. Nowadays even high scorer IMGs are resorted to primary care specialties (FM, IM, Paeds, Psy) as surgical specialties are extremely competitive, not to say dermatology or radiology. Most surgery aspirants have to do a year or two of prelim or being a research fellow before they could even secure an interview. A senior of mine has done 3 years of research before he got into Urology.
3. Most IMGs are offered J1 visa. Upon graduation, you are bound to leave US for 2 years before you can reenter the States to apply for a job. (there are J1 waiver jobs, but what if you do not get?). And getting into fellowship programs is another matching process which will depend on your performance, your letter of recommendation etc. Not everyone can get into fellowship programs directly after their residency and earning big bucks after a few years.
4. The median salary for most primary care specialties (at least 3-5 years experience) are around 200k USD a year. By earning this much you are bound to taxes of 30+%. And as president Obama is going to restructure the taxation for the “rich”, I expect this to go up the scale.
5. There are 3000 plus doctors from KMC, India in the US healthcare workforce. A portion of them were already US citizens or US green card holders before they even applied to residency. Needless to say, they have an advantage when it comes to the match. Some local students who are working their ways to the States are extremely competitive, they were among the tops in the Karnataka state entrance or Manipal entrance. I just received a text from a classmate few days ago telling me that he has got a 259 in step 1, and there are seniors who scored 264, 269.. And they all are aiming for IM programs, which are common among IMGs. These are the people that we have to compete with if we were to go for the match.
No need go for usmle. Their system different. Doctor in malaysia might b more skillful than those in us because u are trained under subspeciality of ur choice rightaway in us. Also u are not expected to know procedures like venipuncture, lumbar puncture etc before us residency but u need to know something bout this b4 malaysia housemanship.
Doctor,
You wrong about Lincoln College. It’s very good comprehensive fantastic college as it is international college. It has ties with United States, Australia, UK and all major countries. I believe the medical degree will be recognized by MMC in no time or Malaysia will be losing future good doctors. All other countries will want the graduates here. I will start my degree with them next year. Any advice? The entry requirement is high and is very tough to enter I believe is harder than IMU and Monash. This is maybe because the training is good and is cheaper and that is why everyone wants to enter.
Medicine is not bleak because it is noble job and is extremely hard to get into. Maybe there are more colleges but maybe it because there is more demand for it and supply not enough? That’s why more colleges coming up.
Karl,
How high is the entry requirement, and what do you mean by “tough to enter”? Can you be more specific, for the benefit of all that may be interested.
I have 5 As in SPM and TER 73 (which means top 27% of those who took SAM exam) and I took 1 year off to work want plan to study again this year so I decide take medicine at LUC. I know got people result better but for my village this considered good and medicine not easy for me to enter.
Based on MMC criteria :http://mmc.gov.my/v1/docs/MY%20Entry%20criteria%2020120911%20Adopted.pdf
you do not qualify to do medicine. The college is taking you in illegally. MMC may ask you to leave the college soon as what is happening to some of the students in AUCMS.
Wow! They take in ATAR 73? Really scrapping the bottom of the barrel, I see.
karl, for you education, good medical schools in well managed countries select their potential doctors from the top 5% (or using Australia as an example, as you did the Australian year 12, ATAR95 minimum) and those actually admitted are usually the top 1% (ie >ATAR99). In these countries you will NOT be allowed to study medicine.
Hi Karl,
You are so sure about Lincoln and seems to be making a statement so what kind of advice do you expect?
Forward planning is of paramount importance. Join Lincoln to your heart’s content. Identify the risks and manage them properly.
hai sir….im studying over russia…im realy instead of doing my nuerosurgeon after I completed my 6 year in KSMU..but i have no idea where do i need to go and what shall i do??? can you help me out??? i would be happy if you send to my email…gajen_myob_hkwtd@yahoo.com
Firstly, it is too early to say what you will be interested in until you start to work. I have seen many who were interested in this and that but ended up resigning all together.
Path way to neurosurgery:
You have 2 options after completing 2 years of HO and 2 years MO:
1) do Masters in Neurosurgery by USM, a 4 years course but the intake is limited.
2) do Master in General Surgery of 4 years, wait 1 year and do another 3-4 years of sub speciality in neurosurgery.
All in all , it will take about 10-15 years post graduation to become a competent neurosurgeon.
Hei, beside the 2 years HO and 2 years MO, i believe the waiting period could be up to 6 years after that 2 years MO and you probably need to spend 6 years in neurosurgical department before you are given a chance to apply for the master.
So does it mean maximum wait is 6 years after 2 years as MO.
2 years (HO) + 2 Years (MO) + 6 years (Max. waiting period) = 10 years. Can I say every MO (or chronc MO) will get to do his training post after 10 years from his MBBS?
waiting period varies depending on the speciality but not guaranteed.
Oh, I forgot that you may not get the Master program on first try, meaning you probably have to wait for few years.
What are those specialties which are not really competitive in your opinion????
almost all are competitive nowadays due to increasing number of applications. Probably Psychiatry might be the least competitive.
Dr. Pagalavan has written in the above blog:
“The major problem that I foresee in the future will be the number of places that are being offered. As of this year, the total number of places available is only 600, all disciplines included. Imagine, with 6000 new doctors coming into the market every year from now onwards, only 10% is going to get into the Master’s programme annually. ”
However, the number of places for the Clinical Masters programmes in the various universities (UKM< UM, USM, IIUM, UiTM) is actually higher than that. MOH itself is sponsoring some 800 trainees each year (http://www.moh.gov.my/press_releases/343). Add to that the trainee lecturers from the 12 public universities' medical schools the intake is probably nearer to 1,200 each year. But that still means less than 20% of medical graduates doing their housemanship will be able to further their studies later on. This number is unlikely to increase by much each year because of the lack of senior specialists / consultants with enough experience to train the new specialists.
Basically, if any of you young doctors out there wants to get a place in the Masters programme to become a specialists you have to compete with at least 4 other colleagues for the spot. Of course, for some popular specialities, like orthopaedics, the competition is much higher and stiffer. You need to prove to everybody that not only are you a diligent young doctor during your housemanship and MOship but that you are responsible, have a good head on your shoulders (i.e. having a higher amount of common sense than the average person), disciplined, a good team member, can lead when required, willing to go the extra mile etc, etc…..If you just want to be an average Joe than forget about being a specialist and think about becoming something else. Last, but not least, advance planning and strategising yourself while doing your housemanship and for your MO placement is equally important.
My 2 cents.
Yes you are right. However the odds of getting the Master ism not 20% but much less because not only you need to compete with your fellow doctors in the current batch, but you have to compete with those who are not successful in their application in the PREVIOUS years. Also in selection for candidate for Master program, seniority is a significant factor. This is why the average waiting time for Master is 4 years (after completion of HOship) and upto 8 years for some very popular discipline.
Thanks for the comment but however I don’t think the trainee lecturer post is 400!! Most of this 12 public universities do not have their own Master’s program. Thus their trainee lecturers undergo the training at the established universities like UM, UKM, USM and UIA. So, the total post may still be the same.
also see your kulit-fication!
I think kulit-fication is not the main factor anymore. A lot to do with your experience during the MOship and your support from your department head. Also the pride of univeristy does take intoconsideration. If you put UM as first choice and UKM or USM as second or third choice, you are almost sure to be excluded by the UKM/USM. They are also tend to take back their own graduates so those from Russia / Indon may be at disadvantage.
I stand corrected. The number of applicants for the Masters programme last year is 1242 for a total of 759 spaces provided by the universities. MOH wants to send 800 for their Masters but in the end only 650 took up the offer.
I’m a medical student sponsored by government to do medicine in Russia. I would like to ask what are the further qualifications needed if I were to get an international recognition?
Depends on which field you want to specialize. It also depends on where you do your housemanship.
It has been a while since Ive posted here. I am a Romanian medical graduate, living in Malaysia, married to a Malay citizen. I have submitted all my relevant documents to the MMC, and they accepted my studies quickly, but invited me to find an examination centre of my choice. The tricky part is, most of the exam centres confirmed that this exam, is actually a programme, a 6 to 12 months courses and a final exam, not to mention “the price is quite high” as University of Malaya mentioned over the phone. Sooo, 6 months of classroom + hospital etc without any work, but with expensive study fees, that COULD lead finally to a post as a junior doctor with provisional registration. Out of curiosity, I have contacted the GMC from the UK which confirmed that I can only apply in England for FULL registration, not even an internship, because 6 months of med school is considered enough from Romania. Now, im not saying as fresh grads we dont need supervision and enormous practice, God forbid, but extra half a year of paid classroom… ? How many years are necesary in Malaysia until they give you a humble chance to start practicing as a foreign doctor….
“…6 months of med school is considered enough from Romania…”
Please elaborate, as it does not seem plausible. Also, when did you graduate as a medical student?
Welcome to Malaysia!
To sit for the Malaysian MQE, you need to do 6 months of attachment in the university which is allocated. I am not very sure of the fee as if I am not mistaken, the fee is minimal for Malaysians.
Remember, doing the attachment does not mean you will pass the MQE exams. Furthermore, job is also not guaranteed. Same goes for UK. Even though you qualify to apply for full registration under GMC but does not mean you will get an internship post.
sorry I meant years, I’m tired from all this “hoping to make it here”, I meant 6 years of med school (2005-2011), University of Targu-Mures, Romania. Here is the bit from an email from GMC: “provisional registration is not available to those holding a Romanian Primary Medical Qualification (PMQ). This is because a Romanian PMQ would usually last for 6 years and include the equivalent of a UK internship. If you have completed this then you would only be eligible for Full Registration.” My point is that in Malaysia I’m required to pay for 6 more months of courses, without being able to work.
What that means is that the 6 years medical course includes a final year judged equivalent to the F1 in UK, hence exemption from the F1. That is of course purely because of the EU rules of cross recognition of member countries qualifications, and does not imply anything about the quality of the medical school or training.
Malaysia is of course not in the EU, and the degree is not recognised, therefore you need to sit for the qualifying exam. Again, that does not in any way suggest the qualification is no good.
Recognition of a non-national medical degree is as much politics as it is about quality. In any country.
Hi Dr. Pagalavan, im currently a medical officer with the OBG dept in one of the hospitals in Klang valley…..iniatially i was very interested in doing masters in OBG but after working in a very stressfull setting for the past 10 months , i have changed my mind …I am thinking of doing specialisation in other field such as ophtalmology where the working hours and stress is not that much and i could have more time to spend with my family…..this idea also came to me after meeting a friend who is a medical officer in ophthal and would be sitting for the basic science ecamination this coming march…he has actually encouraged me to sit for the exam too….i am considering to take this exam…..can you please advice me on this …because i have no experience working in the ophthal dept and i do not want to regret in future….furthermore what are the chances of getting into the ophthal masters programme ? i am really confused …
opthalmology generally is less stressful as it is predominantly office hour work and clinic work. However, not everyone can become a ophthalmologist. You are dealing with microsurgeries and you need good hands. I know a few who quit half way.
Hi Dr Pagalavan
I’m a medical officer wishing to pursue in primary care. I don’t wish to quit the public service/be a private GP.
I wish to get your advise regarding FRACGP. Is it equally recognised as FMS in the public service?
I hv also heard of people who migrate to Australia after completing it. I would like to know more on this.
Thank you very much for your kind assistance.
Yes, it is recognized in Malaysia since 2007. Yes, you can work in Australia.
It is conducted as a 4 year programme by Academy of family medicine of Malaysia. Pls visit their website
on the contrary, ophthalmology is very stressful. most medical schools allocate only 2-3 weeks on their entire undergraduate programme for ophthalmology. while some have none at all; integrated into medicine posting. so new comers to the eye department have to start from ZERO. cataract surgery is no joke! not infrequently patients’ postoperative vision ended up worse the preoperative vision. during the steep learning curve, you have to deal with the guilt & frustration. if you know any ophthalmologist who does very good surgery, try asking him/her to open up his/her closet. then you will know how many PC rupture and nucleus drop he/she has. if you stay long enough in the department, you will notice that the vision of the majority of your patients are either CF or Hand Movement.
welcome to ophthalmology.
Thank you once again Dr
Dear Doctor, in this articles, you just mention about MRCP which is a UK based.
1) What about the RCAP and other australian exams?
2) Are they open to foreign medical students?
3) Can I do it in Malaysia?
4) MRCP vs RCAP what are the pros n cons?
sorry for disturbing, but i would like some explanation about that because I’m confused. thank you very much
RCAP from australia is a structured training programme which cannot be done in Malaysia.
THe only exception is FRACGP for primary care which is conducted by Academy of Family PHysicians. Of Malaysia as a 4 year program.
Dear doctor, i would like your opinion.
1) I am very interested in heart N which do you think will be better for future doctors? Becoming a Cardiologist or cardio surgeon? I am very interested in both and of course i have to decide on one. Which is better in government hospital or private hospital?do they have different salary?which you think is tougher?
2) Are all doctors with specialization in government hospitals have the same salaries/specialist allowance, regardless of whether they are rheumatologist,nephrologist,neurologist,neurosurgeon etc?
3) What is the difference between general surgeon and lets say a cardio thoracic surgeon? Do general surgeries involve hearts too? How different are salaries in gov sectors for these two? People reading this might think i just care about money but im not. Hope you dont think i am all about salaries but i am interested to know.
Thank you so much!
firstly, have you started working? It is always better to decide what you are interested after you have got the real feel of what is medicine is all about. Actually I have answered these questions many times in this blog if you care to read.
1) Private hospitals DO NOT pay you a salary. You are self employed and you earn what you do and charge the patients. In government sector, ALL specialist are paid the same irrespective of what specialist you are. Cardiologist and Cardiothoracic surgeon are 2 different field. You can’t compare both of them. they need different skills and knowledge. it is not like choosing between A and B. In private sector both are almost saturated. Each private hospital will only need about 1-2 cardiothoracic surgeons and ONLY BIG hospitals will have cardiology services.
2) as above
3) General surgeons do NOT do cardiac surgeries.
Even though you claim that you are NOT into money, it is common for people to still ask about which field has good money. As I have mentioned before, no matter what you say regarding your intention to do medicine, money will still come into the picture as it is a job to earn a living. BUT I must say that there is NO money in medicine anymore.
remember it will take about 12-15 years after graduation to become a competent cardiothoracic surgeon and about 10-12 years to become competent cardiologist.
Dear Dr, i share a common question among most Malaysian Medical students studying particularly in a private medical university in Malaysia. What are our options for specialisation right after mbbs. Can we do housemanship overseas and proceed with a specialisation and come back to Malaysia as a specialist or do we have to go through the 2yrs of ho again? If yes, which country and how long does it take? With the government calling back Malaysian specialists overseas, do we have an option to skip the compulsory housemanship years?
p/s: Im looking at Paeds or probably O&G. Prolly microsurgery if the option is there.
I think you really got no idea about medicine at all. You should spend more time reading this blog. NO ONE can do specialisation immediately after MBBS in any country!
Housemanship is compulsory in all countries in order to get full registration.
If your degree is NOT recognised anywhere else, you can’t work in any other country and thus you can forget about going overseas. FYI, only private uni degree recognised overseas is Monash which is recognized in Australia & NZ ONLY.
Pls spend more time reading this blog under ‘FOr Future Doctors” page
I am aware that i need to do my housemanships first, yes i know.
“Can we do housemanship overseas and proceed with a specialisation and come back to Malaysia as a specialist or do we have to go through the 2yrs of ho again?”
That was the question. Sorry if i phrased in a confusing manner. Id like to know if i could do housemanship overseas right after a medical degree in malaysia. and if i complete my housemanship overseas, can i do my specialisation overseas and come back to malaysia and practice as a specialist without going thru another round of housemanship here.
If your degree is NOT recognized overseas, you can’t do housemanship anywhere else.
If otherwise and if you do get a job overseas, yes you can come back after specialization from overseas and do not need to do housemanship again
http://pagalavan.com
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device via Vodafone-Celcom Mobile.
Hi Fred,
You can only do your housemanship overseas if your degree is recognised in that country in which you wish to work. It is as simple as that.
One obvious exception is the US, where you may sit the USMLE and proceed to do internship there. However, most foreign graduates only get the less competitive medical specialties.
If you have specialised overseas, you do not need to do housemanship in Malaysia again when you return. Your specialty training must obviously be recognised in Malaysia. BUT, if you have worked overseas for 5-6 years without completing specialty training, and wish to come back, MMC will make you do housemanship rotations in those specialties which you haven’t worked in.
I think this has been mentioned many times before, non of the Malaysian medical degrees, both private and public, are recognised outside Malaysia, with the exception of UM and UKM, recognised in Singapore.
The Monash Sunway degree is recognised in Australia, but it will be difficult to get an Intern job in Australia.
The IMU-PMS programme does not award Malaysian degrees, and students graduate with the respective PMS degrees.
From your questions, it is evident that there is much that you do not understand regarding the nature of postgraduate medicine and surgery, and what such a career entails. That said, you’re not any different from the majority of medical students and the fact that you are here on Dr Paga’s blog is a positive step in the right direction. Plenty to read here, and it would be a good idea to read it all!
Regarding microsurgery, I hear a fair number of medical students say they want to be specialise in “microsurgery”. I’ve never really understood what that means since microsurgery does not exist as an independant specialty outwith the realms of fictional dramas.
Microsurgery is a highly precise surgical technique applied by various subspecialities for a purpose:
1) Plastics – for reconstructive surgery. Whilst Plastics is a comparatively small specialty, they account for the greatest number of microsurgeons.
2) Neurosurgery – for brain and spinal cord surgery.
3) Orthopaedics – for spinal surgery.
4) Maxillo-Facial surgery – as Plastic surgeons, but in the head and neck region only.
5) Cardiothoracic surgeons – for coronary bypass grafts.
6) ENT – for endonasal, skullbase, middle ear and temporal bone surgery.
7) Vascular surgery – for …. eh? Haha! Actually, that’s a laughable proposition as once the microscope comes out, they will call for a Plastic surgeon!! 😉
Good luck!
Thanks. Well i guess as a med stud, u get all excited bout all this stuffs and dont have an idea at all about em. yeah just realised the existence of this blog from a friend. gotta learn and understand things first 🙂 and yes on the process of it. i gotta plan my career dont i haha.
Dear Sir: I am interested in studying internal medicine and Subspecialist Specialty in gastrointestinal diseases. Do the following steps on how to study in the United Kingdom:
1. MBBS ( Degree + Transcripts )
2.MRCP ( Certificate )
3.CCST ( General internal medicine )
4.CCST ( Gastroenterology )
5.CCST ( Hepatology )
6. Master of internal medicine ( consultant ) . is correct . please help me . i am waiting for response . thank u very much . Sincerely : Ali zeinali Baravati
There is no more CCST, it is now called the CCT under the GMC.
Gastroenterology is a recognised speciality in itself, and there is no need for General Medicine certification prior to CCT in gastroenterology.
The MRCP is a separate qualification, obtained by examination, and in the UK is NOT a certification for specialisation, although everybody goes through it as due process.
The Masters in Msia is a separate process and qualification, and in Msia, is considered the equivalent to MRCP. There is NO need for CCT for one to be certified as a specialist in Msia. And finally, the Msian Masters is not recognised in any other country except Msia.
How about undergraduate in UM, then postgraduate training internal medicine in Thailand ( or other ASEAN countries ) ( 3 years ) then come back to Malaysia ?
Does this newly-qualified ( from Thailand ) internist have to pass MMC postgraduate qualifying exam ?
What is the implication of medical workforce from 2015 Asean Economic Community where doctors from Thailand ( and from other ASEAN countries and vice verse ) can work here ( and any where ) freely ?
Why postgraduate training internal medicine in Thailand and Philpine is only 3 years whereas in Msia it is 4 years. On the other hand, general surgery training is 5 years in Thaialnd meanwhile in Malaysia it is 4 years ?
Many thanks
No postgraduate degree in Thailand is recognised in Malaysia. You can visit the National Specialist Register/NSR website to know what are the PG degrees that are recognised.
The Free Trade agreement does NOT exclude you from being properly registered as a doctor in this country. Thus, you still need to be registered by MMC. so, your basic degree must be recognised by MMC. Same goes to specialist. They must be registered by NSR in oreder for them to be able to work over here. That’s the reason the Medical Act was amended last year.
Each country have their own specialist programme based on their healthcare system.
The keep the answer short. Siamese post graduate qualification is not recognised in Malaysia. The Master prograsm is a structured program and the duration is fixed by the respective universities which offer the master program. Thus it may be differ with other countries. In this sense, newly-qualified Siamese internist is unlikely to be recognised as physican specialist here UNLESS given special privilege by MOH or MMC (by Health DG) which is unlikely as well. They have no choice but to past the relevant qualification (MRCP or doing the whole Master program).
Regarding implication of medical workforce from 2015 Asean Economic Community where doctors from Thailand can practice here or not, it is still not clear how they are going to implement it. But I suspect it is subject to proper qualification recognised by MMC and MOH. And most importantly MOH will probably not hiring these specialist as MOH will definitely give the Malaysian the priority for these specialist post. However this may have an impact for private secto as some private hospital may hire foreigner to cut cost but consider that most Malaysian patient are still prefer Malaysian doctor (or choose doctor according to race), foreign doctors may not be the choice of doctor as well. In conclusion, consider that the glut of doctors in Malaysia, such policy of letting foreign doctors to practice here will probably not going to be implemented as it is not politically correct to do so.
Some private hospitals have already started to bring in specialist from India who have degrees which are recognised by MMC and NSR. However, their reception by public is not very good.
We have to be ‘bersyukur” if given a chance to do M’sian Masters, even though it is not recognised by other countries. Likewise, Malaysia also does not recognised specialities from some countries. It is better to be a Malaysian Specilaist (just like dr paga) rather than be an UK/Aus chronic MOs residing in UK/AUs (anyone here in the blog?) as the chances of trainings in UK and Aus are extremely slim. Being a Malaysian citizen, the chances are higher for us to secure a training post in our own country, instead of completing with the citizen in other countries. This is just my personal opinion.
Dear New HO,
I agree that one should be thankful if given the chance to do Malaysian Masters, especially when there are so many more MOs in the system now with no increase in Masters training posts.
There indeed are chronic MOs in UK/Aus, just like there are in Malaysia. However, the chances of getting on to training there are better than Malaysia, purely based on the ratio of MOs to training posts available. Granted, this may not be true for the very popular specialties (e.g. surgery, cardiology, hepatology, dermatology, radiology, ophthalmology etc) but I know Malaysians who are training in all those specialties in UK/Aus/NZ.
In Australia and NZ, almost all house officers are eligible for permanent residency once they start working (immediately in NZ, after 1 year in Aus). If you happen to graduate from their own universities, you will therefore be on equal standing with their citizens and will get on to training based on your CV, references and interview skills. Meaning if you are good enough, you will get on. More difficult in the UK because it is not as easy to obtain PR and they have to given equal preference to EU citizens.
The hardest part is getting that first job, whether it is straight out of university or via an overseas entrance exam. Once you are in the system, chances are you will get a training post much easier than you would in Malaysia – although exceptions may apply for the aforementioned extremely popular specialties.
I heard from friends( who have children practising in UK) and family members practising in UK saying that It is no longer true that it is easier to get a training post in UK compared with Malaysia. It is only true for those who had gone there many years ago (those in their 30+) but for those who just graduated recently, their chances are almost nil. I do not know how true it is.
It is normal that most will only go for popular specialties. An MO had told me if he were offered a training post in forensic pathology, he would rather stay as chronic MO than taken up the offer.
The only obvious conclusion now is to actually FORBID our kids/nephews/nieces from even thinking about doing medicine. There’s nothing but bad news about declining standards (in Malaysia), glut of medical graduates, lack of internship and training posts. One would think this would be more than enough reasons to even think about it.
I think jk has given you the answer. Gastro and hepato are 2 different subspecialty. You don’t need to do both.
Postgraduate training at UM, UKM, and USM
Why doesn’t the resident / specialist trainee earn decent salary ( like those house officers/residents in UK, US Aus, etc ) and instead, he must pay tuition fee ?
Which one is better UM, UKM, or USM ?
Which one is easier to enter ?
If there are 3 newly-qualified internists ( one is a UM postgraduate specialsit, one from UKM, one from USM ) applying at private hospital, which university graduate would this private hospital prefer ?
how about medical ( malpractice ) insurance of specialist trainee ? Who pays ? how much ?
Thanks
Your salary is the same as a MO’s salary when you do Master’s. JPA will give full scholarship for all Master’s trainees but you will be bonded 5-7 years.
Either one is OK
the entry is standardised by KKM.
Private hospitals take doctors based on years of service and your reputations.
In private, you pay the indemnity insurance. For government, the gov will take care for time being although things will change soon. How much depends on your speciality, pls visit MPS website for further info on this.
How about the future of emergency medicine specialist ?
A female patient with painless bleeding goes to ER. Emergency medicine (EM ) doctor correctly diagnose previa placenta. What is the role of Obs Gyn specialist ?
What is the role of EM specialist in this case ?
How much is the EM specialist earn per month ?
When will this EM specialty become “saturated” ?
Is there age limit for applying postgraduate training for local and international( foreign ) candidate ( my cousin ) ?
How to prepare for postgraduate training entrance exam ?
Is there past papers of this exam ?
Future in what sense? In private , there is NO future until comes a time where all private doctors are employed and NOT self employed.
EM physician’s role is just that: making a diagnosis and passing the case to the respective consultants.
How much they earn: in the government, it is the same as any other specialist
in private: same as MO in emergency department with some additional perks, net after income tax will be around RM 15K.
saturated? that depends on my first statement.
For local Master’s, if I am not mistaken, the age limit is 45.
your last question: ask the respective university as it is different for each
How deluded you are, Karl.Please read and make your homework.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am a second-year out MO at Australia, and I have been accepted in Basic Physician’s Training (BPT), which is the FRACP exam. It takes three years minimum to pass, and I hope to return to Malaysia after Ive completed that exam. I plan to enrol in a cardiology training programme in Malaysia. My questions are;
1) Do I have to go through the gazzetment process and if so, how long?
2) Is FRACP considered as a specialist programme in Malaysia (I assume it is in Australia)
3) How is the process of enrolling in a Cardiology programme in Malaysia?
Thank you
firstly , you need to complete the entire FRACP program and pass the exams.
whether you need to do the gazeetment or not depends on the duration of time you have worked in Australia as a specialist after FRACP.
FRACP is a recognised specialist degree in Malaysia.
Once you are gazetted, you need to apply for the cardiology training program as mentioned here
the other way will be joining IJN or university hospitals.
Dear CardioMan,
If you are currently working in Aus, you surely know that passing the RACP exams without completing the entire training programme means absolutely nothing. Specialists are accredited once they have gone thru all of their training milestones (time, exams, cases, procedures, etc). Passing an exam alone does not make you a specialist and you only get your letters after the whole training (i.e. there is no MRCP equivalent that you can use as a shortcut).
If you really want to do cardiology, I would suggest getting to know the people in the departments really well and maybe get involved in a research project. It is extremely competitive (which may be why you are investigating doing it in Malaysia) and you may have to do Internal Medicine first.
Thank you both for your replies. Yeah, I agree Nav, it is pretty hard to get into Cardiology in Victoria, only 8 people were offered Advanced Training spots for cardiology. To be frank, its extremely competitive and in the most recent enrolment, they had 10 head of cardiology from the whole of victoria to interview each candidates, and the senior who passed it told me there were about 100 candidates for those 8 spots. Very competitive.
The FRACP exam is pretty tough too, with many saying it is harder than MRCP.
May I know how many Cardiology spots are offered in Malaysia or IJN./University Hospitals (rough estimates would be great).
And Nav, what do you mean by having ‘to do Internal Medicine first’? Do you mean doing a general medicine year first?
the available cardiology post depends on the number of consultants and training centres. IT varies every year. This Jan intake, only about 4-5 manage to start the training within MOH. For IJN/UH, you need to check with them
Actually, I meant finishing your training in Internal Medicine and then doing 3 years in Cardiology. But actually, having said that, no one in Aus does that anymore. The trend there is to do cardio, gastro, respi, etc without doing Internal Med, which is fine if you work in a big city but not if you end up in a smaller regional hospital. In NZ, people still tend to do Internal Med and then a subspecialty.
In summary, if you want to do cardiology in Malaysia, leaving while halfway thru your RACP training is pointless.
Sir, for JPA holders, are they allowed to do master programs in the 10 years bond? I am curently a Matriculation student and if i failed to enter local universities for medicine (most probably), is IMU a good choice and do i stand a chance to enter IMU? Are the students of local universities given priorities in master programs?
Yes, you are allowed but your government bond will be extended.
IMU is fine but competitive and expensive.
Whether local grads will be given preference or not, depends on the selection committee and the field that you apply.
oh i see, then is the 10 years bond include the 3 years compulsory service?
Dear dr pagalavan,
thank you so much for the very infomative articles. It has been eye opener to me.
Sir, i’m a MO in a private hospital completed MRCP part 1. Could you kindly guide me further how to become a physician as far i’m concern i cant complete part 3 as private candidate and gazzetment will be an issue. I really need ur help.
Pls guide me sir. Is singapore will be an option? will i able to register as physician in malaysia?
Thanks a lot in advance
You got no choice other than going back to government service.
If your basic degree is not recognised in Singapore, you can’t get a job there unless you complete the entire MRCP .
Hi Dr, can krishnan go back to government service? I heard that once you have left the governmenet service, you are not allowed to join them again, is it true?
If there is a post available, you can but under contract
Good evening sir, i am indian and have done my MBBS from india and graduated in 2010. since then i am trying for MD in india but since i dont have caste reservation i am not getting clinical field since 2 yrs. in the mean time i wrote usmle step1 and got 99 but since now i am old graduate my chances of getting usa residency are not very bright. i am very much interested in internal medicine. can you suggest me where else i can apply for internal medicine residency.
Dear Dr Pagalavan..
Thanks for enlighten me about the real life i’m gonna face after this. I am now an overseas graduated medical student , waiting to be called for housemenship. Between this period of “Dr wanna be”, i began to face with many questions related to health&diseases, and its so disappointed that i can’t really answer all the questions on the spot.. the transaction process from a medical student into a real doctor frighten me now.. can you suggest what should i began with for my housemenship preparation. tq
When did you graduate and which medical school did you go to?
You can read all that is written in this blog
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
What an informative blog! I’ve just spent the last hour or so filtering through all the replies about Orthopaedic training in Malaysia..
I am a Malaysian with a UK MBChB degree, currently working as a CT1 Core Surgical Trainee (Post FY1 & FY2, Full GMC registered) in Trauma & Orthopaedics.
I have been in the UK for a number of years and I am starting to get tired of this place and would much rather be practicing back home. My dilemma is that its either I stay on in the UK to complete my MRCS, FRCS, CCT then go home, or if I jump ship now to head home into one of the M.S programmes. I know they will not be recognized anywhere else.
I was just wondering if the M.S Orthopaedic programmes have any sort of government bond associated with them? I will not require scholarship or government funding.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Andrew
I would suggest you finish everything in UK before returning.
You must understand that it does not mean that you will get into the Master’s program on first try. Master’s in Orthopaedic is the most competitive Master’s program. most have to wait for 2-3 attempts before they get the training post.
All Master’s candidate have to take compulsory JPA scholarship which means you will be bonded atleast 5-7 years.
You say ” All Master’s candidate have to take compulsory JPA scholarship which means you will be bonded atleast 5-7 years…”
Is it possible to be self-paying/self-funded ( master ) student ?
” most have to wait for 2-3 attempts before they get the training post. ”
Does it mean waiting for 2-3 years for master program ( as 1 attempt per year ) ?
As far as I know, there are no self paying candidates except for some foreign students. ALL Master’s students are MOH employees.
YES for your 2nd question
Actually you can consider moving to Singapore after completing your Master’s in UK. Their government is expanding their number of hospitals there and are in search of foreign doctors to fill the vacancies.
http://www.doctors.com.sg/medicalschools.html
Doesn’t the director of program/department get bored by interviewing exactly the same person applying the same program and by asking just the same questions and probably by listening to the almost the same answers ?
In London there were almost 100 posts offered
http://www.surgeryrecruitment.nhs.uk/events/2012-cst-ct1-recruitment-statistics
Interviewers do get tired listening to similar responses from candidate after candidate. But this is also why those who can come up with something original and different do make an impact.
The UK CT and ST interviews are conducted in OSCE format. ie: there are a set number of stations (typically six) that each candidate has to go through. Each station has a pair of interviewers who ask a standardised set of questions. Each interviewer will score the candidate individually. At the end, points are tallied and candidates are ranked by their scores.
When there are 1400 candidates being interviewed centrally, there will be obviously many interview panelists, so it does not mean that all candidates are interviewed by the same panelists.
The major strength of this style of interview process is that it endures fairplay and prevents jobs being appointed by nepotism and the “old boys’ network”.
Hi Jon J,
just wonder whether you can advise : –
(1) how much a houseman (FY1) is currently earning per month in UK, say London?
(2) is he entitled for accommodation or subsidised fee?
(3) being paid for his unsocial hours at the hospital?
(4) will those who get placement in London get a higher salary than those who work outside London since cost of London is higher than most places? Thanks.
Hi dr , I’ve completed my internship and step 3 in usa if I were to come back to Malaysia do I need to do housemenship ? Is there any exemption ?
Yes, you need to do your housemanship.
Why do you want to come back?
Thought of coming back for family ,may I know the criteria if I were to be exempted from housemanship or is there any other option for my qualifications in Malaysia ? Thank you dr
Housemanship in Malaysia is 2 years with 6 rotations. If you can show proof that you have done similar rotations and durations than they may consider for exemption. Otherwise, you are only exempted if you have a recognised postgraduate degree.
Hi, i’m a final year student from MMMC and will be sitting for my finals in September. Passing my final exams is my utmost priority but i’m also planning for the future. i Have a few questions:
1) Is choosing the place to do housemanship really important for future advancement?if so, where best recommended.?
2)It’s been reported that UMS is building a new teaching Hospital. Will other universities be offering post graduate studies in the future, if not all the public universities?what about private universities?
3)When will be the best time to start my MRCP PART 1?
how fair the gazettement process ?
how fair is the gazettement process ?
Generally ok
What if the supervising consultant does not like him/her ( newly qualified specialist ) because of race, gender, religion belief ?
You can put in a request to do your gazettement elsewhere
Is there MRCS part B ( OSCE ) preparation course in Kuala Lumpur ?
Try Penang medical college
I am just wondering how Prof Dato Dr S T Kew ( dean of IMU ) can have many FRCPs from 4 colleges ( London, Glasgow, Ireland and Edinburgh ) ?
Does it mean that she takes 4 MRCP exam for each college ?
http://www.imu.edu.my/imu/index.php/programmes/undergraduate/medicine
See her profile
FRCP is a honorary degree.
Hi Dr Pagal, firstly i would like to thank you for maintaining this superbly informative blog; (seriously thank you). I am a medical student who is undergoing electives at hospital ampang, and it’s interesting to see the difference between the condition of 4 HOs in general medicine wards VS 35 HOs in the general surgery wards. I’d definitely agree that the 4 HOs will have better training than the 35 HOs.
anyway I want to ask this: Doctor, in your opinion, which specialist fields will be ‘less saturated’ than the others in the coming 5-10 years?
thank you in advance
BY the time you graduate, there may 50 HOs in each department!
the “less saturated” fields will be the less popular fields like Haematology, Oncology, Radionuclear medicine, Geriatric, ID etc
there are too many university graduates today from any “kind” faculty /subject either here or in UK
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/work/special-report-a-degree-in-architecture–but-all-i-can-get-are-menial-jobs-8159842.html
Alright Dr, i see. Thank you for the advice. May i ask why are there so few oncologists? Is the job scope much more difficult than the other specialities? And btw i heard that there are plans to abolish the MRCP in Malaysia in the near future. Is this true?
Nothing is impossible but the talk of abolishing MRCP has been going on for many years since 1990s. The reason why there are only few oncologist is because the prospect in private sector is very small.
Okay, then Dr i have two more questions – Are there any positive developments to look forward to in the field of medicine in Malaysia, and do you have any advice for the Malaysian medical student of today?
read all the info in my blog and decide!
developments are always there , if you remove money from your intention.
Never do medicine for the wrong reasons
Hai dr, may i know why no more mrcp in future or why they think of abolishing it? So only master? Do you know which website i can follow to know news and development of medicine in malaysia? Thanks 😀
it has always been a issue. You must understand that MRCP is NOT a specialist degree in UK. It is an entrance exam to speciality training. Last year, MOH has already made it compulsory for MRCP holders to have undergone atleast 4 years internal medicine training before can be gazetted as a specialist.
okay I understand. Thank you very much Dr and keep up the good work with this blog
Hey Dr. I’m 18 and I’m currently waiting for my SPM results.. And yes, I’m interested to pursue my studies as a doctor, follow up by specializing in becoming a neurosurgeon.. Your blog seems very interesting.. But I’m still determined enough to become a doctor, no matter what.. Well, I’ll like to hear some opinions from you bout this.. And do you think studying in overseas can get me a job there? What would you recommend for me to do? Thank you 🙂
ALL the answers are available in this blog. Care to read all the info under “For Future Doctors” page.
The chances of getting a job in Australia, UK and Ireland is becoming very slim.
Dear Sir,
My wife is doing housemanship in india, but her college is not listed in malaysian medical council approved list. I am working in singapore and planning to reside to malaysia. So is it possible to become register and practice by any examination conduct by malaysian medical council.
She need to sit and pass the MQE exam but very unlikely she will get a job in Malaysia as we are having surplus of doctors currently.
because your wife is NOT Malaysian AND her medical school is NOT recognised by MMC, it is IMPOSSIBLE for her to register and practice in Malaysia.
MMC recognition depends on citizenship OR the medical school
If you wife is MALAYSIAN (or would-be Malaysian because of husband’s citizenship ) — regardless where she graduates — she can register and practice in Malaysia ( because of citizenship ).
If your wife is NOT MALAYSIAN citizen and her medical school is RECOGNISED by MMC , it might be POSSIBLE that she might be able to register ( if she is offered a Medical office job in very remote hospital in east Malaysia hospital.
Why not working in Singapore ?
Even if she is a Malaysian, her degree must be recognized by MMC in order to practice here.
http://pagalavan.com
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device via Vodafone-Celcom Mobile.
” .. Even if she is a Malaysian, her degree must be recognized by MMC in order to practice here…”
Yes, if she is Malaysian and her degree from unrecognised medical school will highly likely be recognised by MMC since she can apply and sit MQE virtually unlimited times !
Haha, you are right!
Thanks for your comments.
Things are more complicated in singapore, only 9 indian colleges are approved here. I can’t find any option here. Sir did you know any option in singapore. Otherwise can you suggest any short term courses to attain approval in singapore or malaysia.
Sit for the entrance exam. Pls enquire from SMC
There is NO possible solution for your wife case either in Malaysia or Singapore to practice as a doctor legally.
There are many PhD or MSc ( 1-2 years and costing several thousands USD ) courses in health / biology.
She CAN work as a nurse assistant or health care assistant (HCA ) in Singapore nursing house/ pensioner house, not in hospital.
Why not do postgraduate training or practice in India ?
What do you do in Singapore ?
Why you want “to send her away” from you to work as a doctor in Malaysia while you are in Singapore ?
Why don’t you ask her to sit in front of TV and to become a full-time housewife while looking after you ( and your children ) ?
Why you want to move/ settle to Malaysia later on ?
If she were a graduate from recognised medical school and worked in remote East Malaysia hospital, would you be happy with her being away ? how would you “make her happy” physically every week – I reasonably assume you are a young couple as you say that you wife is doing horsemanship now so she must be 25-30 – ?
yaa, we are newly marriage couples, i am working as Project Engineer in Singapore and got an offer in Malaysia. Only plan to settle in Malaysia incase of any small scope for her job.
Whether she can do any MD in Malaysia?
I don’t want to sit her at home, because according to me wife should work, she also likes to work. World never become develop if all people thinks in same way.
Thanks
No such thing as MD in Malaysia. Without completing horsemanship, you can’t do any Master’s program either.
do you mean that MD is postgraduate training ?
Postgraduate training in Malaysia is only available if the school is on MMC list of approved school. In addition, you have to pay several thousands USD for training, not to mention apartment, meals – unlike the ones in UK, Aus, NZ, US and other western European countries. On top of this, your wife must be fluent in Malay language and Malaysia postgraduate training is NOT recognised in elsewhere except Malaysia. In addition, a foreigner CAN”T work in private hospital. When you apply postgraduate training, university hospital will check school name first.
Hello Dr. I’m doing American degree program in health sciences. It’s a 2+2 program which I’ll be transferred to states. After completing this undergraduate program, I would like to join med school in usa. Then residency in general surgery, and residency in cardio, and then fellowship. I prefer to stay there as my whole family members are there. Do you it’s possible?
Yes, it is possible since you are graduating in US
Dear Sir,
I’ve came upon your very informative blog and I find it very useful. Truly the medical field is not a path that is straight cut and I’m very thankful that you’re spending your time to gv us guidance.
I’ve just graduated from North Sumatera University and currently applying for the post of a HO. I’ve decided to specialise in the field of cardiology and I wish to do it in Australia as most of my family members are there. However, I’m confused with the route in achieving it. Being far away from family is hard to cope and I wish to rejoin them in future. From what i understand after reading the above comments, correct me if I’m wrong:
Finish HO in Malaysia -> AMC part 1,2,3 -> register with AMC to do a specialist training programme in internal medicine -> subsepcialise in cardiology
I’ve been browsing the web for a few months now and I come to no conclusion as there is no clear cut explanation to my case. I’m in a confused state as I also need to plan my budget as the examinations do not come cheap and it might take a long time. I’m hoping that you’ll provide me with a clear picture in achieving the specialization I desire (cardiology) and also to be working in Australia.
Thank you
Wayne
Extremely sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it is very difficult to get a job in Australia through the AMC exam route at the moment. I personally know of other Malaysians who have tried and have been unsuccessful. Even if you did get a job, getting on to the cardiology subspecialty training programme is difficult even for Australian graduates because it is extremely popular, let alone for a non-Australian graduate.
I would suggest to not put all your eggs in one basket. Work in the Malaysian system while sitting the AMC exams (note that they are quite expensive) and possibly think of the MRCP as well. Do not quit your Malaysian job unless you actually manage to get a job in Australia because you will be stuck in limbo.
Sorry to say that the first mistake you did was to do medicine in Indonesia. You should have gone to Australia.
Even if you clear all the AMC exams, the chances for you to get an internship post in Australia is almost NIL due to the internship crisis that Australia is facing currently(pls read my post on that).You need to do internship again in Australia even if you have done housemanship in Malaysia.
My advise is to work in Malaysia as the vacancy in Malaysia will also run out by 2017
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your reply. What you say is true and we I hv to stay practical… I’m aware of the current situation where there’s increasingly limited jobs for doctors in many parts of the world. I might as well tk heed of ur advice and serve the country instead of dreaming to work in Australia.
However sir, if i wish to be a cardiologist in Malaysia, can you gv me some advice? I’m starting my HO soon and I would like to hv an idea and to plan ahead of what I need to go through in order to be one as I do not want to waste time. There are several questions I want to enquire:
1. In Malaysia what are the steps or examinations to be take in order to be a cardiologistist?
2. Is there clinical training provided locally? Can i opt to do it in IJN?
3. Can I apply to be an MO in IJN?
4. Before I start HO, any advice to be given sir?
I would like to first thank you for your reply and what an amazing job you’re doing with your blog. I hope you’ll continue on with your good work. Thx again sir.
I had written about specialising in internal medicine and cardiology. Pls read my post on”Step by step approach in subspecialising in internal medicine”.
Dear sir,
currently i am a trainee lecturer in one of the local university planning to apply for master in rad.however, i have no any experience in radiology training. i would like to ask is it possible to enroll in um master program?how about the clinical attachment that state in the um postgraduate website?can i apply for that?
thanks
You have obviously been to their website. The HOD’s email address is listed there. Probably the best person to contact, don’t you think?
If you are a trainee lecturer, you are bonded to your university and the uni will sponsor you. You should ask your university first
What does the would-be specialist trainee do during clinical attachment before starting master training ? What he CAN ad CAN’T do during clinical attachment ?
thanks
you will know when you start to work!
Dear sir,
I am a final year medical student in UKM..I want to do my HO and master in Singapore..If i don’t manage to get into spore in my 1st attempt(after i graduate), do i stand a chance to service over there after i completed my 4 yrs service in msia? or is there any other alternative?
Thank you.
Yes you may and join as a mo/service reg if u meet their requirements in Singapore.
Hello doctor…
Thank you for the sharing. It’s really useful information for us to realize the current situation in Malaysia. I’m interested in the topic of pursuing our studies in specialist & subspecialist… I’ve taken a liking in orthopedic department for quite sometime. So, I was wondering what I can do if I wanna pursue in this specialty.
Thank you for your attention.
-Adeline-
The speciality that is overloaded at the moment is Orthopaedic. Whenever a private hospital opens, ortho seem to have the most number of applicants. The need in rural areas are still high.
Just remember if you want to practice medicine in the US don’t waste your time anywhere else do all your postgraduate training in the US
That is if one gets a place there. I read elsewhere a person got good grades for each steps and got interviews for offer in different places in usa and not accepted after lol
There is no guarantee that you will get into the system and training program. Thus it is better to do the housemanship here while waiting!
Hello Doctor,
Iam MO from Indonesia. Can i take any postgraduate course such MRCP,MRCOG, etc in Malaysia as my condition as my country was not shortlisted for hold the exam? What is the requirement ? im not clear wit what written in their webs.Do i need to be registered first in Malaysia? as I read the part 1 of the test can be done at year 1 of internship. Iam now 3years mo post my 2years of intership. thanks doc
Please contact University of Malaya Postgraduate centre for further info
Thanks doc for the advice.
btw,…
If im not mistaken, from above blog, i havent read about practising as mo in HK. Will it be easier for me as my uni was not recognised in Malaysia which mean i wont able to be registered in Malaysia? Is there any country in Asia that probably will accept me to be register then practise there? I am planning migrate, feel stuck as i found my recent position cant get me to enchance my skill yet trapped in such dilemma, to get a medical field job in other country, need to meet their requirement which i havent found any solution as my uni is not listed either Malaysia or Singapore
Once again, thanks doc
btw i’ve sent UM postgraduate centre email for further info but they just repleid me with auto regards asking me to check their web as i’ve checked in detailed, the info about MRCP, MRCS, etc is not there 😦
Hong Kong does not recognise any other medical degrees except their own, ie the 2 medical schools of HKU and CUHK. All other graduates, including those from UK and other commonwealth countries will need to sit for a qualifying exam. That exam is well known for being very tough, with a pass rate of about 20% only. The reason is that the majority of candidates are from China medical schools, which does not have a tradition of high quality medical training and practice.
Hello doc,
Ive been following this blog ever since i started HOship and im currently a MO at HPD. What is your opinion on research based master programmes as an option for doctors?For example genetics, neurophysiology, physiology and virology. To be very frank, as much as we are overloaded with medical doctors, we are going to be overloaded with physicians very soon too as so many young doctors are persuing the Mrcp exam as its the most practical method of becoming a specialist. Hence i just want to know the other possible openings. As much as i like seeing patients, research simply heightens medical care.do enlighten me.
Thank u.
Doing there courses in Universities will NOT make you a specialist. If you are interested in research, and prefer non-clinical work, then go ahead. But do not think that they are an alternative pathway to a specialist qualification.
MRCP exams have consistent standards, and not every doctor who expresses a wish to sit, or is actually sitting for the exams, will pass. Many give up half way, or cannot pass the exams. That will filter out many, especially those who had it easy during their medical school.
These degrees do not make you a specialist. They are research based degrees and your job scope is limited to universities and research centres.
Yes, a lot of people are doing MRCp as a short cut to speciality. That’s why there are rumours that MOH may derecognise MRCP
dear sir ,
i am doing my final year mbbs in Ukraine.i am an indian citizen. i like to do my internship in malaysia.what is the criteria for doing internship in malaysia for foreign medical graduates?do i need to write any screening test for that ?
Malaysia do not provide internship for foreigners unless you are married to a Malaysian
Dear doctor,
If I complete my mbbs in monash Malaysia, is it possible for me to undergo postgraduate training in Singapore? If so, how to? Because I know that the degree from monash Malaysia is not recognized by smc so there is no way for the graduates with basic mbbs degree to practice in Singapore, right? Apart from that, is an foreign graduate accepted to do housemanship training in Singapore?
Get the MRCP or MRCS, which will allow you registration.
Yes, lots of non-Singaporeans do housemanship there, as long as the basic degree is recognised. A significant number of UM and UKM graduates do that.
If your basic degree is recognised in Singapore, you can do housemanship in Singapore. If noy, you need to pass MRCP or MRCS before going to Singapore for specialist training.
Hello Dr.Paga,I just finished with my matriculation and I am supposed to attend interview for USM medicine course soon.What is you thought on USM medic course standard and level?and it would be great if you could share with us about the tips for the interview(if you have any)-like what will be asked,and how to please the interviewers and etc.?I am a newbie in this,expecting some ideas and guidance for the legends and other pros as well…Thank you and have a nice day.. *nice blog btw*
help me 😦
USM is OK and they have their own teaching hospital. However, I got no idea what they ask in the interview
I seriously doubt much weightage is placed on the interview, it is just a requirement mandated by the MMC. Private Med Schools also do it as a routine, but it plays little part in the selection process, other than confirming ability to pay the fees. Their priority is to fill places with student at least meeting the minimum MMC requirements. They are NOT going to turn away a student with money and good results just because he can’t talk at the interview.
IPTAs like USM will also have to toe the NEP line, so selection will be based on an unstated racial quota. Just go and keep an open mind, don’t think too much into it. But a common question is why you want to do medicine, so some reflection on this question may be useful.
thank you,mr/mrs,jk..Its under jpa scholarship.any thought on some proffesional answers on that qs of,why you want to be a dr.thank you
Maybe if you ask nicely, someone will go do the interview for you.
They don’t want a ‘professional’ answer, they want YOUR answer. You are applying to do medicine, and you have not thought out why? Or was it just because of good SPM results and the accompanying JPA scholarship offer?
what are 3 most important things doc sholud have,thoughts?
Please read all the articles in this blog and you can find the answer
Dear MD, seems like you are the spoon-fed type. Why don’t you provide answers to your questions and we can help you with the correction if needed.
Find out urself. Nobody could answer for you.
For Orthopaedic surgery, strength off an ox, half the brain. The third quality is optional.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
Im Dr Hidayah, a one and half year medical officer. Im actually interested in Dermatology, but in Malaysia u have to take MRCP and become physician for atleast 2 years, is it correct? because im not interested in internal medicine at all except dermatology field, so it tooks me this long to think what am i suppose to do with it. I heard about Australian paper/test for dermatology, is it recognised in Malaysia? How am i going to deal with it? and is there any fastest way to achieve my dreams to become a ‘young dermatology’.. ^^
Need ur input Dr.
thank you 😉
You can’t do Dermatology without doing Internal medicine. I am sure you are aware that many of the skin conditions are related to systemic diseases. That’s why it is important to have a good training in Internal medicine before you do dermatology.
There is NO short cut in becoming a dermatologist. Diploma courses and sitting for some exams in dermatology do NOT make you a dermatologist in Malaysia.
How to get into the subspecialty program? In royal ireland? I see they only provide like 2-5 places per subspecialty. How can i be one?thanks! 🙂
Boss, what is your take on frcgp offered by AFPM here?
It’s OK. AFPM only conducts the course for 4 years but the exams are conducted by FRACGP.
Sir. In order to enter medical school in usa, what my major should be?
Sent from my iPhone
any basic degree will do
Dear sir,
im a medical officer planning to become gp, i heard that it is difficult to get the xray machine lesen today.
Is there any related course that run by moh or mma that enable a gp to handle xray machine?
and i went through the soem website and it is not updated. i would like to know whether the course for socso is still available?
and i have read your post regarding the future of gp, really scared me a lot as the rumour of 1care malaysia rised again after the GE.
hope to survive as a gp. may be will nid to enrol for the dfm later.
thx a lot Dr Pagalavan!
It is not worth owning and operating an xray machine as a GP nowadays. The regulations related to operating an xray machine is very troublesome to comply with, in the usual shophouse GP setting. There are so many diagnostic centres around, it is simpler to just send patients there for xrays.
dear jk,
ya i think it is troublesome, but the area i aim is a rural area tht the nearest diagnostic centre is 1 hour apart, and all other competitor without xray machine, so i would like to have one.
Oh, in rural areas, then there is some use. But it’s only a matter of time before the chain labs expand to rural areas too.
There are a lot of rules and regulation now in setting up X-rays in GP clinics. You can check with MMA for the guideline.
You also need to hire radiographers.
1Care will definately come. read BN’s manifesto
Dear Dr Pagavalan,
May I know whether FRCOphth is recognized in Malaysia? Or i only can go through Malaysian Masters programme to become an ophthalmologist?
However, I don’t really see many FRCOphth holder in Malaysia, is it because it is too tough to pass through the exam?
What is the minimum duration needed for a candidate to proceed to sit for FRCOpth part 2 after completion of part 1 and where is the centre available in Malaysia that we can be gazetted ??
Thank you very much.
It is recognised, but you can’t do the training here. You have to be working in the UK to obtain that qualification. Thus, if you are working in Malaysia, Masters is your only route.
FRCPOPthal is recognised in malaysia but if I am not mistaken there are only 1 or 2 centres which is recognised training centre in Malaysia. Try asking Tun Hussein onn eye hospital and UMMC. If I am not mistaken, the exams are not available inMalaysia.
I am not sure that is entirely true but am happy to be corrected.
THO Eye Hospital claims to be a training centre for FRCOphthal but nowhere on the college website does it state that training done outside of the UK will allow you to get the CST (which is what you need to get on the specialist register in the UK). If all you want is the FRCOphthal at the end of your name, then both the Part 1 and Part 2 written exams (not the clinical) can be sat in KL – but this alone does not make you a specialist!
You don’t need the CST to be a specialist in Malaysia. The FRCOph is recognised as a specialist qualification, and after the necessary gazettement period, one will be gazetted and can apply for NSR registration.
Dr, I have a question. I am a studying doing local medical degree in Malaysia. I am interested to go to the United States. Is there any way I specialize there? Is the specialization there recognizes here in malaysia?
You need to sit for the USMLE to be allowed to work in the US. There are lots on websites with info in this. However, it is extremely difficult to get into popular residency programmes as a foreign graduate so you may end up with a residency that is not your first choice.
I had written about this many times before. pls spend some time reading this blog.
Firstly your university must be listed in WHO list. Then you need to sit for USMLE exams which consist of 3 steps. NO guarantee that you will get a residency(training) post after spending huge amount of money and time. If you complete your American Board exam, then it is recognised in malaysia.
Hello doctor,
thank you for this very informative blog.It does get a bit disheartening at times, reading about the bleak future of the medical field in malaysia,but i guess it’s good that we med students kniw what we’re getting into (eg the hell of bureaucracy) when we finally graduate.
i’m aware that you’ve been asked a lot of questions,but i hope that you’ll find time and patience to answer mine.I’m a final year student at NUMed,and as have started looking at my options after graduation — it’s always good to plan,right? i’m also aware of the issues you’ve brought up regarding numed,and have undergone the depressed-hopeless-now accepting “what can i do about it” stage.
1.for a friend who died due to cancer,i have studied med with the aim of becoming an oncologist.a surgical oncologist,to be precise. what i want to know is, what are my routes to doing that in malaysia? don’t quite understand the mcrp part.please pardon my ignorance,would you please detail to me the pathway?
2.i hear that specialty training in spore is of higher quality than in malaysia.i’m not in this for the money or wtv else; i just want to be the best doctor and oncologist i can ever be so that i can help curtail the numbers of those who die due to cancer as much as is humanly possible.what would be your advice to me regarding this?is it better for me to specialise in spore(hopefully they recognise my numed degree.. 😦 ) or, if at all possible, in the uk? i should prob mention that while i was initially drawn to usa,it’s my intention to practice in malaysia,to serve the good people here. will an unrecognised degree frm numed hinder me from taking the mcrs / mcrp to undergo specialty training in spore for surgery?
3.I’m not sure exactly which public uni offers oncology, but i’m sure that in one of the above comments it was said that spore recognises the degree.does this mean that if i take it there,i can undergo training at spore or wherever is good for this particular specialty?
i’m aware that i might be exhibiting extreme ignorance of some key facts, however that ‘s why i’m here asking the advice of an expert like you– to get my facts right.truly,i appreciate the time you took to read and answer this.
lastly, numed offers the possibility of completing the last 6 mths of the mbbs in the uk,at newcastle or any other related campus.will this make a diff regarding the degree’s recognition?will i be abke to apply for FY1 if i complete my mbbs in uk?as you know,numed says the degree is the same wth their uk campus.
oh, and out of curiosity,what are yourviews on intercalated degrees for med students?do they make a difference?esp if the student takes a bachelors for neurology or surgery during their intercalated year; does it give them an advantage at all?
thank you very much!
Hi Jay,
To answer your questions:
1. There is no such thing as surgical oncology. Oncology is a subspecialty of internal medicine. There are surgeons who specialise in removing tumours but these are surgeons with special interests (e.g. neurosurgeons, colorectal surgeons, gynaecologists, all with an interest in cancer removal). You would have to go through surgical training first before even thinking about treating cancer patients if you choose the surgical route. You do however have radiation oncologists (specialise in radiotherapy for cancer), which is recognised as a specialty in Aus/NZ and in Singapore. MRCP is an entrance exam for specialty training in internal medicine. MRCS is an entrance exam for specialty training in surgery. On their own, neither make you a specialist.
2. Singapore does not recognise your NUMed degree. Your own uni website says that you are unlikely to get a job in the UK due to immigration laws. However, it does say that they are planning on working with GMC to make sure that your first year as a HO in Malaysia gives you full registration with the GMC (The Irish medical council has been known to do this but have not heard of the GMC doing so). If this is true, that will open doors for you to work in Aus or NZ (before they also get saturated) but you may still have the same problem with UK immigration laws. http://www.ncl.ac.uk/numed/study/undergraduate/mbbs/career.htm
Taking the MRCP will allow you to work in Singapore as a medical registrar and then you have to compete to gain entry into their residency training. I am not sure how Singapore treats MRCS holders.
3. I do not understand this question. Singapore will recognise a postgraduate qualification in oncology from most english-speaking western countries.
4. Intercalated years are useful for certain specialties or if you are planning on making research a significant part of your career. How can you do a bachelor of surgery in your intercalated year? The ‘BS’ in MBBS stands for Bachelor of Surgery – so you already have that qualification.
Congratulations on almost completing your degree and good luck with the rest of career.
Nav and Jon J
Surgical oncology is a valid term in the north american system. It really just means surgeon who does cancer surgery. Different nomenclature in the NA system. There is also surgical oncology fellowship in NA which is also a 2 year-accredited surgical fellowship training program in Canada and in the States.
but yes, surgical oncology is a 2 year add on upon completion of the general surgery training
s207,
So, you are really taking about a general surgeon with an interest in tumour removal, presumably from the thyroid to the waist. Even the much-vaunted American medical education system (yes, I am being sarcastic) wouldn’t let a general surgeon remove a brain, bone, kidney or gynaecological tumour.
If anyone wants to end up working in Malaysia, they need to do a postgraduate qualification that fits in that system (or whatever system they want to work in). If a true surgical oncology training programme truly exists somewhere, they would be unable to function in that multi-organ role in a Commonwealth healthcare system. For example, Germany has traumatologists, trained in both orthopaedics and general surgery but only from the trauma perspective. They can’t do a lap chole or a TKJR, so again, would be unable to function in our system.
Nav
You are right….but it could be from the face to the legs including parotidectomy, sarcomas and melanomas on the legs! 🙂
In NA, when the term surgical oncologist is used, we pretty much know that he/she is a general surgeon kind of oncologist, as gyne tumor is removed by gyne oncologist, kidney by urologist, bone tumor by orthopaedic oncologist.
Surgical oncologist in NA usually pick two or three major systems to specialize but there must be some who would do all of them. The choices are HPB, sarcoma/GI, breast, melanoma and endocrine surgery/head and neck (those who wants to do more head and neck usually do a second fellowship in head and neck surgery)
I know Australian surgeons who did their surgical oncology fellowship in NA and they function as real surgical oncologist (with the exception of doing HPB/UGI surgery) in Australia.
Traumatologist in North America who had gone general surgery residency training are allowed to do lap chole, hernia, and many other general surgery procedures as they are general surgeon by training. They would do obstructing bowel cancer cases as well when they are on general surgery calls.
Having have some experiences in Surgical Oncology, I tot i might add a comment here..
Surgical Oncologist do exist and they are surgeons who have a highly specialised interest in cancer care. they tend to work in specific areas (or body parts if u may) in tertiary (or quatenery) university academic centers. They are usually referred to when dealing with complex cancer cases or rare ones.
The training pathway (from the point of Gen Surg) usually involves being qualified first as a General Surgeon then further fellowship usually in a specific subspecialiaty, followed by several yrs of Fellowship in a tertiary cancer center. Eg. of this centers include MD Anderson, MMSK, Royal Marsden etc. In Australia, there is the Peter MaCCallum Center center (Melbourne) or Sydney Melanoma Institute.
I guess i could highlight this with an example. Most colorectal cancer can be dealt with by most general surgeon and all colorectal surgeons. Most however would be sending it to a Colorectal Surgeon/Surg Oncologist for a Pelvic Exenteration or Peritonectomy (+intraop chemo). Similarly for breast sarcoma needing radical mastectomy or melanoma needing Isolated limb perfusion. The benefits here is also the presence of clinical trials and experimental techniques in such centers.
same with Trauma, we know (from evidence) that Trauma treated in high volume Trauma centers do much better than treatment in a district general hospital. Again similar with fields like Intestinal Failure etc.
I wrote about NuMed degree recognition issue in 2011 and some people accused me of spreading information which is yet to be confirmed. Even the university sent me a letter asking me to stop spreading the info to their students. I replied to the uni and they never replied back!Now, the final year students are beginning to realise the issue which I brought up then. I had a few calls from international students as well regarding this issue.
Firstly, I think you should decide on what you want to do only after undergoing horsemanship. It is good to have an ambition but you will not know what it is all about until you start working as a doctor. Your perception will change! Being an oncologist really does not change the outcome of a cancer. What changes the outcome is early detection and surgical intervention. Oncologist come into the picture very much later. That’s the reason it is not a popular field and it cost a lot of money for the patients if they were to take treatment in private sector. That’s the reason you don’t see many oncologist in private hospitals. Most cancer patients will end up with palliative care and not curative.
As Nav has said, there is no such thing as Surgical Oncologist as a field by itself. It is a subspeciality of surgical field, which means you need to become a surgeon before subspecialising in surgical oncology. Same goes to Gynae oncology, paediatric oncology and even medical oncology (haematology). However, UM do conduct Masters in Clinical Oncology as a basic speciality field. It mainly involves radoation oncology etc.
Singapore do not recognise NuMed as thus you will not be able to work in Singapore unless you pass MRCP or MRCS. As I have mentioned several times before, eventhough you will be receving the same degree as UK Newcastle, the immigration laws in UK will make it impossible for you to get a work permit to work in UK. I had written about GMC’s dilemma over here. Please also read this document of the GMC meeting in September 2012 (page 7/8) over here.
Completing the 6 months in Uk or elsewhere does not mean anything. Your degree is only equivalent to UK degree if you do your entire clinical years over in UK.
Ouch, double whammy! This is what it says in the GMC document that Dr P linked to: “The School would need to make it clear to the students that they would only be able to progress from provisional to full registration if they undertake F1 in the UK and that given the change to immigration rules and the oversubscription to F1, it was unlikely that a visa would be granted. This coupled with the fact that students would not be eligible to sit the Professional and Linguistic Assessments Board examination, would make them ineligible to practise in the UK.”
Basically, no chance of working in the UK because of immigration laws, GMC will not recognise housemanship done outside the UK, AND NUMed graduates can’t sit the PLAB exam because the degree is technically recognised.
I wonder how much of this info is being given to prospective students by NUMed?
‘Surgical Oncology’ does exist, there are some surgeons who call themselves that. However, it is NOT a recognised sub-speciality, and generally, surgeons (including Gynaecologists) do not accept this division. There is enough fragmentation already in Surgery, and oncological surgery is, and always should be, part and parcel of any recognised surgical sub-speciality.
Ditto for this thing called ‘minimally invasive surgeon’.
As a surgeon myself, I can’t help but chuckle at the pompous manner of some of my colleagues who choose to use the title “Surgical Oncologist” or “Trauma Surgeon”.
Subspecialties in surgery are defined primarily by organ systems, and then regional anatomy if one feels a need to define things further. Eg: “Plastic Surgeon – Breast”, “Plastic Surgeon – Head & Neck”; or “Orthopaedic Surgeon – Upper Limb”, “Orthopaedic Surgeon – Spinal”; or “GI Surgeon – HepatoBiliary”, “GI Surgeon – Colorectal”.
All surgeons who are properly trained are “Tumour and Trauma Competent” within their subspecialty area.
wow.thanks for the detailed response.and the whammy, i guess.:(
I’m sure you understand,sir,when I say that this is all rather disheartening for someone just about to complete her medical degree — i haven’t even started as a HO yet,and already from the info i got frm your blog,it seems that all i’ve been working for is crumbling to ashes.
perhaps i’ve been using the wrong terms,but I basically envisioned myself years into the future as a surgeon who works in the OT removing tumors,much like the good doctor i met who was treating my aforementioned friend.
good sir,where would you suggest i go, what should i do,after this, if i still try to carry on this path? keeping in mind that i just want to be the best doctor i can be,with no vested interest in money or the private sector’s lucrative side etc? also,would it be better to stay in malaysia for specialising in the above,or is another place better, and if so,where (spore?usa?) keeping in mind my degree is from numed and all the restrictions that come with it?
Life is never easy. Reality always hurts.It is always better to know what is ahead than not knowing anything.
The pathway to become a surgeon has been written in this blog before. The only way is via the local Master’s in Surgery program.
Since your degree is not recognised elsewhere, you got no other choice.
Taking USMLE to go to US is expensive with NO guarantee that you will get a surgical residency training post.
To go to Singapore, you need to complete MRCS before applying for a registra post in Singapore.
Hello Kathie,
— This is an oversea newspaper article. — I wish you good luck!
The demand for doctors increases as the American population grows and ages. However, doctors have to undergo internship that spans from three to seven years before they can practice individually, and the number of places available for internship is restricted by the funds causing a shortage in the supply of trained doctors.
According to the Wall Street Journal, since the Reform Act has increased the demand, medical colleges are now expanding their recruitment and with the 12 new medical colleges in the country, they are expecting an additional 5000 graduates by 2019. Yet, WITHOUT a corresponding increase in training posts a larger graduate population will make no difference. In fact, the number of federal sponsored training spots has NOT increased since 1997 as FROZEN by the Balanced Budget Act.
The supply of fully trained doctors will be in short by 62.9 thousand persons by 2015 and reaching a staggering 140 thousand by 2025.
Currently, the excess in training posts is filled by graduates from Osteopathic Schools and overseas medical colleges. In 10 years, with the increased enrollment into medical schools American medical and Osteopathic School graduates will fill the spots completely, removing the posts available for foreign doctors.
Unless the internship opportunity increases, medical colleges can only perform replacement instead of actually increasing the supply of doctors.
hello Dr ,
Dr , i`m currently going to finish my medical degree from University Andalas and the degree is recognised by WHO .since starts to read your page i`m confirm that dont want to work with Goverment hospitals after completion of housemanship. i`m planning to continues my postgraduate study in master of general surgery in india.
Dr i`m would like to get pathway to continues my posgraduate studies in india. ?
Hi Suresh,
Looks like you need to do a lot more reading of Dr Pagal’s blog.
A degree recognized by WHO means it is registered with WHO but does not mean it will be recognized but any country right?
I suggest you do your internship first and from there you will have enough time to decide on your future and pathways. You need to do your compulsory two years as MO (after completing HO) unless the rules are changed in the near future.
sir what a benefit serve for goverment for two years unless getting a good pay. if i want to further my studies also i have to wait many years because only god three major institutions only offering medial postgraduate courses. In indonesia students automatically continues their specialization studies after graduate from university and their no such a thing called compulsory serve . if i havent plan anything before enter internship means sure i should wait until get offer from goverment which take much more years .
I don’t think you know what you are talking about. Every country has different training system. Each of this training system is only recognised by the respective country and not necessarily by another country. There is no shorter way to become a specialist if you really want to become one. It must fit into the country’s healthcare system.
FYI, the salary for doctors in Malaysia is not bad at the moment. I got no idea what you aspect to earn when you become a doctor but it is not as rosy as you think, with money!
Compulsory service may be removed in near future.
So, u want to be a doc for money?
FYI, WHO recognistion does not mean anything. It just confirms that such a medical school exist in that particular country. To work in India, your degree must be recognised by Medical Council of India !. Furthermore, postgraduate degrees from India is NOT recognised in Malaysia. If you have more than 5 years working as a specialist in India, then certain consideration can be given but not easy with the current specialist registration.
Dear sir,
Im working as a medical officer in a private hospital. I would like to take up some courses to hold my position in this competitive world. What are the courses available in malaysia for private doctors? Do guide me to increase my skills and knowledge. Thank you
you can try Academy of Family Medicine
Prakash how is working in private hospital
?
is it easy to get annual leave, sickness leave and or “other” leave ( to visit parents who have chronic degenerative diseases in east Malaysia ) while doing postgraduate training in UM ?
How many day per year can a postgraduate resident take “leave” ?
as per government servant : 25 days annual leave, MC and no such thing as “other leave” except paternity leave. Of course whether your leave is approved or not depends on your Head of Department
Hi Mr Paga ,
Is the degree in PU-RCSI recognised in Malaysia and Ireland as mentioned in the website ????? Thanks
NOPE. you can see the MMC recognition list over here .
Do you see Perdana RCSI? MMC only accreditates a medical school when the first batch is in final year.
AS for Ireland, you need to check with Irish medical Council. The last I checked, it was not there.
Thx u dr. Paga .
BTW how about UCSI medicine course ? do u have any idea
Are the medical student produced over there good/decent ?
so far their 2 batches of graduates are OK.
Hi Doctor, great reading your advices and comments. Would like to mention that middle class parents are finding it tough to support their children who want to pursue medicine. I am a parent. They dont get any scholarship. no other bodies want to help saying that our pay must be below RM3000/- a month. If the children are interested and want to study, it is difficult financially. Hope some kind of finances or aid is given for this kind of group.
I would also like to mention that in Government hospitals and clinics there are too many patients with few doctors. So why cant these doctors be evenly placed. ? And I feel housemans must be treated better than the way they are treated. . Ok tk
The problem is not shortage of doctors, it is maldistribution !Housemen are treated well but the problem in this country is quality control. The bad ones and good ones will both be forever a government servant and no actions can be taken against them. There are so many of them who don’t do any work but yet can complete their horsemanship. The public don’t see this and they feel all doctors are the same!
Hi dr. Paga,
I’m a Malaysian, married to an Indonesian and currently just finished my specialization in Anesthesiology from the University of Indonesia. My MD too was from the University of Padjadjaran, Bandung. I was just wondering what are my options if I decide on coming back to Malaysia? I read that the best thing to do is to work for the government to learn and adapt to the system and if so what is my position there? I also read that if u have a working experience of 3 years, U can actually start working right away, does this apply to private or the government hospital? Do please enlighten me, thanks u and great job!
Your specialisation from Indonesia is NOT recognised in Malaysia. Thus, the chances are, you will not be considered as a specialist in Malaysia. You can come and work as an MO in government sector. You still need to work in government sector for 4 years. Compulsory service exemption is given if you have worked overseas for more than 10 years. The 3 years is for exemption of housemanship.
Hi Dr Paga
I am an US trained Internist and am board certified by ABIM with 2 years post grad experience who came home. I submitted my application to MMC and KKM but received coy responses as to processing times and possible outcomes. Any insights?
welcome to Malaysia ! There is no such thing as processing time !. Firstly, with the new medical act, you must be approved by the National Specialist Register before can practise as a specialist in malaysia. Only after that, KKM can offer you a job. If you have ABIM certifications, there should not be a problem but since you are less than 10 years of service, you need to do your compulsory service of 3 years
Wow, thanks for your prompt reply! It’s great to be home and I’m eager to join the service. I guess I feel I am in the dark as to how long MMC usually takes to deliberate applications from Malaysians from overseas and the subsequent communication with KKM vs folks who graduated locally. It’s pretty boring twiddling my thumbs at home.
There will be no change to the status quo until the new Medical Act is enforced with the Regulations. The Regulations are being drawn up at the moment, and there is no indication how long it is going to take. There is some urgency at the MOH at the moment, so it is safe to say it will not take the 6 years for the PHFAS Act to become Regulations. But it appears the Regulations is no where near complete at the moment.
The guidelines are out and I heard MMC has started to follow the guideline.
Hi Dr Paga, i am currently practising in Family Medicine in Singapore and is considering returning back to Malaysia. I am NZ trained and bout 8.5 years postgraduate training. will I be subjected to 3 full year compulsory serivice or will there be any ‘ pro-rated’ arrangement? As Family medicine doctor, will i be sent to government clinics to serve during compulsory service or is it necessary for me to go through some hospital postings?
Will really appreciate if anyone else has any good advice on this. Cheers!
As far as I know, if you are returning to Malaysia after working overseas for atleast 10 years, you can be exempted from compulsory service. So, you need to calculate the total number of years that you worked overseas.If your Family Medicine degree is recognised in Malaysia, you will be gazetted as a Family Physician and sent to government clinics.
hi dr,what do u think about the future for sports medicine specialist???
sports medicine is good but depends on whether you are doing it after becoming an Ortho surgeon or non-surgical sports medicine.
lets say non surgical sports med??? and also wanna ask..how about studying post grad in india?is ist recognised in malaysia n internationally??coz if study locally….like in um n ukm…its recnognized by singapore i think but not eslewhere…as in not internationally.so incase wanna work overseas its gonna be a prob….what do u think.like me..am not of a int medicine person..more to emergency medicine or sports med..some or rather like that.something which less sucks the blood out of me totally coz i hv other responsibilities as well
i just read ur reply above as indian post grad is not recognized in malaysia).so in that case…which country or universities does malaysian goverment recognizes for post grad?gosh they make it so complicated
YOu can visit National specialist Register website to look at the recognised specialist degrees http://www.nsr.org.my
UM and UKM basic degrees only are recognised in Singapore. Their postgrad degrees are not.
post graduate degrees from India is not recognised in malaysia. Your only chance is via the local master’s program. Sports medicine is good but you need to compete with Ortho surgeons who also subspecialise in sports medicine. Private hospitals generally do not hire non-surgical sports medicine physicians. Your chances are better in sports academies and universities.
https://www.nsr.org.my/qualifications1.html
i think i got the answer(very narrow.
Hello sir.
Im currently pursuing mrcs conducted by PMC-RSCI. I do have some questns for u sir.
1. Ist true that if one pass the mrcs part A, then he will be exempted from taking the Part 1 exam in any master of surgery in malaysia?
2. If my question above is true, then does it also applies in master of otorhinolaryngology? Because im interested in becoming ent surgeon. 🙂
3. I heard KPJUC offers post graduate studies in otorhinolaryngology. Is it good programme sir?
I hope u can enlighten me regarding above questions. Thank u sir. 🙂
1. Not sure. Best to find out directly from the university offering the programmes or from someone who has been through surgical training recently
2. As above
3. They only just had their first intake. They are using the UKM curriculum. I don’t know how they are going to let them ‘operate’ in private hospitals where patients pay lots of $$ just so that it will be a specialist operating. Even if they allow them to operate, time is money in private and teaching MOs will surely take longer. I don’t know how this will impact their learning. Would be interesting to hear more from someone who is aware on how their teaching is structured. Also it costs RM50,000 per year and I don’t know if you get paid a salary during this time.
Dr P: Please cancel my double reply
1) if I am not mistaken, you need to complete the entire MRCS to be exempted, not just Part A
2) Not sure but I don’t think so as ENT is totally a different field.
3) I had written about this before, read here
Thanks a lot sir. Really appreciate ur input sir. And to Nav also. Tq.
1. Not sure. Best to find out directly from the university offering the programmes or from someone who has been through surgical training recently
2. As above
3. They only just had their first intake. They are using the UKM curriculum. I don’t know how they are going to let them ‘operate’ in private hospitals where patients pay lots of $$ just so that it will be a specialist operating. Even if they allow them to operate, time is money in private and teaching MOs will surely take longer. I don’t know how this will impact their learning. Would be interesting to hear more from someone who is aware on how their teaching is structured. Also it costs RM50,000 per year and I don’t know if you get paid a salary during this time.
Hello Dr. Paga,
Is there any article or comment that you wrote about MPH + DRPH 1+3 year program in public university (master in public health and doctorate in public health (phd)/sarjana kesihatan awam?). If not, what is your view for future postgrad doctors with this postgrad program? especially if the 1Care system becomes a reality? tq
Yes, I had written a little about this over here
1Care system may not affect Public Health Specialist as you are not doing clinical work. You may still be employed by the government.
Sir
I am an mbbs dr from Bangladesh currently living at Australia.i completed AMC mcq examination here.due to shortage of intern position in Australia I want to do my internship at Malaysia.what I have to do for that?kindly let me know please.
Thanks in advance
You can’t, unless you have a Malaysian spouse or are Malaysian yourself. Also, your MBBS must be recognised by the Malaysian Medical Council.
Firstly, Malaysia do not provide internship to foreigners unless you are married to a Malaysian. Secondly, it is your basic degree that matters and not whether you had passed AMC or not.
hi Dr,
Can you give me some opinions on how likely for malaysians to get a match for their residency in USA after they graduate from local medical universtities.
Ps: Those malaysians that applied for residency in USA score quite well in USMLE. Thanks for your kind reply.
depends on your luck but Malaysia is not even in the list of top 50 countries from where doctors are accepted into residency. It also depends on the field that you are applying, your Cv, publications etc etc
Hi Dr., I heard that graduates from IMU cannot take the MRCP exam. May I know is it true? And may I know what postgraduate can I take if I want to be as surgeon in the future,eg Masters,MRCS?
I am not sure about the IMU thing. I have not heard about it yet. As long as your medical school is in the WHO list, you should be able to take the exam.
As for surgeon, the only way is via the local Master’s program. MRCS is not a specialist degree
Thank you,Dr.
http://www.mrcpuk.org/Part1/Pages/_Home.aspx
Hi dr pagalan, I’m interested to join masters programme in internal medicine..is that true that,we have to pay back the total scholarship if fail the exam and how much?will I still be bonded though I fail the exams?
either you pay or you complete the bond. Once you are in the Master’s program, you are bonded even if you quit or fail.
what is the criteria of “failling” ?
How much is rough figure if you DON’T want to get “bonded” ?
Criteria for “failing” depends on the university!
I am not sure of the latest figure but it use to be around RM 100 -250K depending on whether you do close or open system.
Hi Dr, what do you think of the prospect of radiation oncology and clinical oncology in Malaysia? What are the options available for docs who are interested in becoming an oncologist?
we are still very short of oncologist but the prospect in private sector is limited.
What is the criteria of “failling” ?
What is the percentage of failed master student ? rough estimation ?
How much is rough figure if you DON’T want to get “bonded” and want to pay back the scholarship ?
the fail rate use to be around 50% in 1990s but the passing rate has improved to about 80-90% in recent years!
Hi Dr, just want to seek ur opinion. I just got medic from ums (universiti malaysia sabah). Now im struggling between imu and ums. If i opt for imu, jpa will cover the fees as im a bursary student 2011. So, which one is better? ums or imu?
I would suggest IMU
IMU with overseas twinning even better 🙂
Hi! Dr. I am writing on behalf of my son. He has been offer a place in UMS for Medicine. Meanwhile we are also waiting for the results of his JPA scholarship for Perdana University.
Would like your advise on whether accept UMS or Perdana >
I would prefer UMS.
I am a doctor with MBBS diploma from a well-known medical school in Pakistan
How about postgraduate training in Malaysia for foreign doctor like me?
Postgraduate traininig in Malaysia is totally different
YOu have to pay tuition fee more than 30 thousand for 4-5 years if you finish/ complete/pass the trainining on time, and apartment for several USD thousands. You also have to pay your spouse/partner living cost/ apartment and school for your children, unless you are single.
Meanwhile, in US, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Hongkong, SIngapore and South africa you will receive money ( a compensation of your hard work as trainee several thousand USD per month ! ) and free/ reduced rate accomodation.
YOu wil be exploited ruthlessly as one foreign master student wrote in this blog – he sees 80 patient per day, come to ward/hospital earlier and go home later and , while on the other hand his Malay doctor students just see 20-30 patients, come to ward later and go home earlier.
Clinical Master Diploma from Malay is NOT recognised by any medical health authority. Health authority usually recognises award from US, UK, Australia, etc ( western countires ). When you return to your country, health authority will highly likely confused and reject Malay master clinical award
YOu also have to master Malay language fluently. Foreign doctors in UK, Australia have to have IELTS speaking score 7 and writing 7 in one single test, which is really hard to achieve. Here, you have to achieve Malay proficiency level, which is comparable to IELTS writing 7 and speaking 7 !
When you finish your “study” ( actually you are here working ), Malay will not provide work permit because we will have a lot of doctors in 2-3 year time – think doctor oversupply in Malay
Why don’t you train in Pakistan?
Firstly, you basic degree must be recognised by MMC. There are allocation for foreign students to do Masters at our universities. You need to apply directly to these universities. You need to pay a full fee and you need to work for them as well with some allowance being provided.
One of the foreign master student explained that there is NO financial assistance. Foreign doctor from Palestine, Sudan receive assistance from their governments Sudan government, Palestine gov, etc. NOT from Malay institution. In addition he mentions that postgraduate training in Philippine is like the one in USA, not tuition fee, and a little allowance.
So, in Philipine, foreig master studet just pay living cost, and accomodation.
If you “study” internal medicine in USA – through USMLE system, you won’t pay anything except for the USMLE test, and after working just 15 days you receive fortnight salary around 2,000 US dollar ! – In USA, you usually receive salary every 2 weeks /15 days
http://residency.medicine.duke.edu/duke-program/training/pay-and-benefits
Even I go imu, i can only choose local programme. Is it true that the teaching quality in private u better than public u. How about the study environment? Which one has a brighter future? Would u like to advise that should i really accept jpa as jpa scholars need to bond with government
Hi rainbow, as a jpa scholar you will be guaranteed a job. also, how many years is your bond? as a doctor, you will need many years of experience in government hospital before going private, so i see no harm being bonded to the government.
I won’t say that the teaching quality in private is better than public. I would still prefer UM, UKM and USM compared to all the private medical schools. These universities have their own teaching hospital and thus the environment is so much conducive for teaching.
Brighter future depends on your degree recognition and how hard you are going to work for the rest of your life!
Medicine is a life long learning process. It will take you atleast 10 years to complete your speciality. Thus taking JPA scholarship should not be a problem unless you are planning to open a clinic after 4 years.
hi Dr Pagalavan.
i graduated last year with a MD and started with my housemanship.Its been 8 months already and my interest in medicine is just fading off. It could be the hierarchy of the establishments here or it could be just me. I was all pumped up to work in the begining despite how the housemanship life can go but lately,its just not the thing for me.I’m just not motivated in any anything clinically. I even thought of going into non-clinical sectors.Need your kind advice. Thank you in advance.
This is a very common problems that I had seen for many years. Only when someone starts to work will they realise that medicine is not for them. I am not sure what is happening but you seem to have lost your interest in clinical medicine. However, you still need to complete your housemanship to get your full registration. If not you need to find another job. After horsemanship, you can request to go to health side rather than clinical medicine.
10 years. I will not hesitate if I have been offered a place in um/ukm/usm. The problem is I got ums. I heard that school of medicine in ums is still new and so, the teaching quality and reputation is not as good as um/ukm/usm. Does ums have a teaching hospital?
NO UMS do not have their own teaching hospital but they use the general hospital in KK. Even though they are new, I would still prefer a public university than private .
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I am a medical officer in radiology department. Can you give me some opinions that is it good to go for external paper eg : FRCR or just join the local Master’s program. If go for local Master’s program which university that you will recommend UM, UKM, or USM?
I would suggest to do both and see which one you clear first.
Any of the uni will do
FRCR is now open to any one trained in radiology dept for 3 yrs.
rather user friendly,something similar to other membership exams.
In the past you will have to work in uk/ire before you can sit the primary FRCR(PART1)!
You may try master and same time sit for FRCR.
If you are that good,then hang the master program,join any gh with radiology mo post and self prepared for FRCR!
before starting postgraduate training, does candidate have to prove hepatitis B antibody level/ immunity level ?
Not compulsory but it is usually done, for vaccination purpose.
Is there 3-year master of clinical /surgical program ?
no, all 4 years
Does a surgeon earn more than an internist in the government? Besides, when admitted in gov hospital the patient paid like half that money needed for surgery.. Or the salary are all the same in the government sector for speciaist, whether u are a surgeon or lets say a rheumatologist?
In government , all earn the same depending on your grade. A U54 internist and U54 surgeon earns the same.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am a medical student in gov university. I am in a dilemma of whether want to go singapore for training after graduate later. Can u tell me what is the pros and cons of going singapore for training? What is the future for a Malaysia graduated doctor in singapore?
I presume you are either from UM or UKM. Singapore has changed their system to US based residency system since 2010. You may be able to specialise faster but if you intend to come back to Malaysia, there may be a problem in terms of recognition as well as adaptation into our healthcare system. US based training system is only applicable for advanced healthcare system like in developed countries. It is too subspecialised .
However, there is no guarantee that you will get a training post in the speciality that you are interested.
Dear dr pagalavan,
What is the specialities that we will never get in singapore and what are the specialities that we can get easily in singapore? If I am intended to come back to Malaysia after i finish my master programme in singapore, malaysia won’t be recognise me?
The popular fields are difficult to get in. Generally, in singapore, everything is competitive. Your supervisor plays an important role in recommending you for training post.So, your performance as MO counts.
There is No masters program in Singapore. Currently they are doing US styled residency system since 2010. Whether it would be recognised in Malaysia remained to be seen. If you are going to get American Board certified degree(which they promise), than it may be recognised in Malaysia.
It can’t be denied that race also matters in our neighbouring country.
@GP: going by your opinion, I would rather merit & race OVER race only, any time!
Malaysia: “We are original inhabitants here (the orang asli don’t count, cos we say so) and therefore should be given preference in jobs, education, promotions, buying houses, getting business contracts, etc. We have even put some of this in the constitution. We publicly say this and don’t really care what anyone else thinks because we are obviously still suffering in oppression. The rest of the population has to just put up with it because we are the majority and if you don’t like it you can leave”.
Singapore: “We proudly say we practice meritocracy in all aspects of life. However, we are even more welcoming if you are of a certain race. We invite you to take up PR before you can even think of applying, we go to the high schools in your home country to offer you scholarships which we don’t offer other Singaporeans, we are more likely to hire you if you speak Mandarin even if your job doesn’t require you to (at the same time not allowing Malays & Tamils to learn Mandarin in school). We do this even though our constitution (article 152) says that the only race that should be given any privilege in Singapore are the Malays, who actually happen to be a discriminated minority here. We do all of this very quietly and because we control absolutely all the media and the internet, the majority population here actually think real meritocracy is in place. The rest of the population has to just put up with it because we are the majority and if you don’t like it you can leave. P.S we will continue to be the majority for the foreseeable future despite our extremely low birth rate due to the liberal importation of our brethren from the motherland”.
Nav nailed it once again. Jaz, please spend some time reading the real bitter hidden truth in what Nav has written.
@GP: I understand how it is in Singapore, and the “bitter truth” is what I wrote earlier. Merit + race > race only, and I believe examples of either scenario is not necessary.
Dear dr pagalavan,
Is psychiatry consider popular field in singapore?
Not really
Which countries run like U.S. system too? I know Singapore and Australia are into this system, which other countries too?
Each country have their own system. Even Singapore’ system is not entirely US like system.
I wouldn’t exactly say that Singapore and Australia are ‘into the US system’ … it’s a bit more complicated than that.
Singapore’s undergraduate training is still very British-based (except for the Duke-NUS venture). And like the British system, a period of prevocational training (i.e. ‘housemanship’ or internship) is required and vocational training usually starts in postgraduate year 3 (PGY3) at the earliest. In the US, you tend to do your whole internship in one specialty and then progress on to 3 years of vocational training. In Singapore, training is not 3 years like in the US; 5-6 years is the norm for most training programmes. The only similarity is that vocational training is conducted by residency programmes, where a hospital (or group of hospitals) designs their own training programme and a central agency accredits it. This central agency in the US is the Accredication Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME). A new organisation called ACGME-International has been formed to accredit residency programmes overseas to a similar structure and standard. The only countries which run ACGME-I programmes are Qatar, UAE and Singapore. Exams are set by an external body (i.e. the various ‘boards’ in the US) and anyone can sit a board exam as they are separate from residency programmes. In the US, sitting a board exam is not compulsory for some specialties (e.g. anaesthesiology) but is desirable for future prospects. All you need to become a specialist is to meet the requirements of your residency programme. In Singapore, most residency programmes make you sit the same NUS Masters exams like they always have.
Australian prevocational and vocational training is almost exactly like the British system, in that it is conducted by specialty colleges, which are accredited by the medical council. The only similarity with the US is that many medical schools have moved to graduate-entry 4-year programmes (probably 2/3 of them).
How do the Duke-NUS graduates integrate into their system if the hospitals run long residency programs for 5-year programme graduates? Another curious question—how are France’s and Germany’s system different from British system?
@Just-curious,
There is nothing to ‘integrate’. Training in medical school is separate from prevocational (e.g. postgraduate years 1&2) and vocational training. Everyone enters the same pathway regardless of your medical school training.
One could argue that there is less clinical exposure in 4-year medical programmes, but I have not seen this to be a barrier in countries where intern practice is highly supervised.
In France, medical school graduates take a national exam at the end of medical school and graduates compete for places in posgraduate training programmes. Programmes usually last 3-5 years.
Don’t know details about the structure in Germany except that it is very unlike the British system.
Cos i recon most of the entrants of Duke-NUS school are quite old —with some already quite accomplished in life— then i thought their prevocational training and vocational training will be shortened and become more subspecialised to accomodate their relatively late entry into the medical working life?
Speaking of France, if their postgraduate training lasts only 3-5 years, wouldn’t their specialists be less skilled than the Commonwealth-trained ones– since their training is shorter than the Commonwealth system?
They cannot have a separate postgraduate pathway merely to accommodate older graduate-entry students. In Australia, about 2/3 of the medical schools are graduate-entry and the rest still traditional 5-6 year undergradute-entry programmes. But they enter a common pathway for postgraduate training once they start work.
With regards to your statement about France, duration of vocational training is merely one aspect of training and does not necessarily correlate with competence. 4 years in a well-structured training programme is probably better than 6 years in a poorly-structured training ‘programme’.
Dear sir, Thanks a Lot For Your Informative Posts. I Know You Must be tired Answering so Many Comments But Pls help Me. I Really Need To Know this Things….
I Am a Bangladeshi. I passed MBBS From Dhaka MEDICAL College Here And also Completed My First Year Internship. I Am In Ms General Surgery Course. I Am Planning To attend MRCS Part a Vety Soon. I Am Very much interested to Work As A Doctor in malaysia Or Singapure. All My Searching End Up Saying Foreign Doctors Are Only Allowed In Public Sectors. Will Pls Tell Me Actually What Should i do To Get A Job at malaysia Or Singapure As A Doctor? Is There Any Chance to Complete My Postgraduation In surgery ? Pls Give me Some Advice so That I Can Plan More my Future.
Yes, both Malaysia and Singapore only accepts foreigners in public sector. Your degree is not recognised by SMC and thus the only way of getting into Singapore is by passing all your MRCS exams. As for Malaysia, you can try applying to the university hospitals. Ministry of health has stopped recruiting foreigners.
And i forgot to mention i have 6 months of training in casualty dept After Completion Of Internship. Is there any possibility to get a job with my qualifications And Then do Post graduation in Malaysia Or Singapore??
Hello dr. Im a med student in malaysia(UM). Im very interested in doing my specialty training and studies here in malaysia since i will be bound to the gov for many many years. However, i am keen on working abroad soon after. My question is, will all my studies and training in msia be recognised in the USA,UK, Australia and n.zealand? I have heard some of them having to repeat medical schools since their country’s physicians’ licenses arent recognised. I knw this is way far in the future but I hope u can help me w my curiosity. Tq very much
Hi Farah,
Unfortunately, the UM degree is no longer given full recognition in any developed country. So, if you wanted to work in US/UK/Aus/NZ/Canada, you would have to sit the licencing exam of each country. Another option is to obtain a postgraduate qualification which is fully/partially recognised but even then there is no guarantee and those qualifications are difficult to obtain in Malaysia, depending on the specialty.
I have written about this few times in my blog. UM degree is only recognized in Singapore. Thus, you will not be able to work in any other countries without sitting and passing their entrance exams.
As for postgraduate, local Master’s program is not recognized elsewhere. Some foreign postgraduate degrees allows you to work in other countries like FANZA for anesth, FRCR for radiology, FRACGP for family medicine etc but not all these exams are done in Malaysia. Your interest may not be in theses fields as well.
I see.. So does this men i wouldnt have to repeat my undergrad degree but i would have to sit for the entrance exam to be a med practitioner there?
Yes BUT passing the entrance exam do not guarantee you a job in these countries. I just recently got an email from a Indian citizen who passed AMC exams but unable to get a job.
Furthermore, if you do get a job, sometimes you need to do internship again.
Ooh.. this all sounds very complicated right now but i get the idea.I guess i will understand this more when im doing my ho. Thank u very much for u replies. I hope i am as successful as u in my future endeavors.
Dear sir, I am considering AUCMS , UCSI and MSU . which of there universities do you recommend ?
I think you haven’t been reading the previous comments of this thread…read up!
i did read it all up and I know that this 3 universities aren’t the top private universities in Malaysia. But these are the only ones I can afford. That’s why I need a little advice in making my choice. please help!!
Personally I don’t trust AUCMS. Imagine it is the ONLY university in the world running 5 medical programs!! It is enough to tell you something!
UCSI has produced 3 batches so far and I have not heard any problems. MSU local program is yet to be accredited by MMC.
i did read it all up and I know that this 3 universities aren’t the top private universities in Malaysia. But these are the only ones I can afford. That’s why I need a little advice in making my choice. please help!!
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I’m a UKM medical graduate and have been jobless for four months now and we still have not gotten date for induction and the rumour is that KKM doesn’t have money for our induction as told by spa to batch of students who went for interview. I was really looking forward to working in Malaysia to serve my people here and don’t even mind going to east Malaysia. But now, with the current situation, I’m really unsure of future of new doctors in Malaysia. And with Singapore govt offering jobs to us, is it a better option to do housemanship in Singapore ? I’m a JPA scholar and wondering whether is there any way to defer the bond after serving 3 yrs contract with Singaporean MOH? Will I be accepted back and do I have to go through housemanship again? And does Jpa offer any discounts if I intend to pay Back the scholarship money? Thank you.
4 months! Wah, I have not heard that for public uni graduate! I don’t think it is money issue. It is actually lack of post. MOH is running short of post as you can see from my latest article published yesterday.
As a JPA scholar, you are bonded with the government. You can’t run away.
As far as I know, there is no such thing as deferment. If you break the bond, you pay the amount stipulated in your contract. Discounts are only given after working for a few years when you decide to quit government service.
yes, likely, you need to do remaining housemanship posting that you did not do in Singapore.
Dr…thank you for the very informative posts. It has been useful. I am currently a medical officer posted at a rural Klinik Kesihatan for almost 1 year.
I would really like to pursue masters in psychiatry. However all the gov programmes need at least 1 year experience in the psychiatric field as a prerequisite. So I have applied for a transfer( hoping it will be a psychiatric hosp/dept).
The whole process is taking a very long time and I would like to know if there are any other options for me in becoming a psychiatrist?
This is not uncommon. MRCPsych is still recognised in Malaysia but I am not sure where you can sit for the exams. You can find out from the college. However, I don’t see anyone doing it. Even then, you still need to be in a psychiatric department.
Hello dr
If im interested in ent. How can specialised in the area?
The only way is via the local Master’s program
Dear sir,
I’m a houseofficer, curently in 2nd year of housemanship. I plan to become paediatrician. I intended to do masters in Paeds, however i heard that in order to get posted as MO in paeds department after my housemanship, i should have passed my 1st paper MRCPCH. Totally confused. What can i do next?
Having passed that will help, but many who are MOs in paeds departments haven’t sat for it yet. Unfortunately, selection is not very transparent – in most places it’s up to a secretary to place you when they have a shortage, unless you are recommended by someone with some clout. Talk to the specialists in the hospitals you want to work in, to ask them what can help.
If you are a non-bumi wanting to do paeds masters in Malaysia, every single bit helps so I would definitely recommend sitting the MRCPCh exams.
Passing MRCPCH Part 1 will give you a better chance to get into a general hospital. Otherwise, it all depends on your luck and availability of post. You must make frequent visits to your State Pengarah’s office and the hospital’s paediatric HOD.
how can I secure a place as MO in paeds department?
nav has been a very resourceful follower of the blog, be it medical education,training or multinational medical system, all seems to be very familiar to him.
i’m wondering can nav care to share his medical background?
out of curiosity, off topic question.
Thank you.
Joined IMU in 1998, qualified from Uni of Auckland in 2003. Worked in NZ and Aus, did my anaesthetic training in NZ which I finished in 2011. Also did a masters in medical education and now work in an Auckland hospital, along with a small role at the university.
During all this time, contemplated returning to Malaysia/Singapore to be closer to family – hence the research into the medical systems of various countries. Went as far as getting job offers. Finally abandoned my plans of moving only a few months ago, 13 years after leaving Malaysia.
HI Nav,
As the most recent post by Dr Paga did mention that the government is slowly coming to terms that there would be an oversupply of doctors in Malaysia.
How if someone completes Housemanship in Malaysia and plans to work in NZ after xlearing NZREX exams? Would they be allowed to enter training programmes like anaesthesia, general surgery at a postgraduate level in NZ? Are there ample opportunities in NZ?
I understand that Australia is slowing closing their doors to foreigners. Even for those who passed their AMC exams.
Probably you made the right choice. If I do make a holiday trip to NZ (in my plans within the next 2 years), will try to meet up with you!
GP – After the NZREX exams, one has to do an intern or PGY1 job. It is now getting difficult for non-residents to get these posts because the 2 universities here are producing more graduates. The foreign students are running into some trouble as well, much like Australia. If you do get one of those jobs, then you have to compete with everyone to get on to training. Popular specialties will be very difficult to get in, more so if you are not a NZ/Aus graduate. Opportunities are there, but near impossible for popular specialties. You are right about Australia – I know personally of some people who have not been able to get jobs after passing the AMC exam and have had to sign 5-year contracts with rural district hospitals working as MOs.
Dr P – sounds good, let me know what that happens.
Hi Nav,
Thanks for the reply. Just that it seems that its becoming more and more difficult to do postgraduate studies in countries like UK/Ireland/Australia/NZ. With regards to the ones passing AMC exams and working as district MOs, would they be given equal footing to pursue postgraduate training with the local grads after completing their 5 year stint?
Also, has anyone any idea of postgraduate training in Singapore for those who are keen to pursue postgraduate training overseas?Are foreigners (including Malaysians) be given equal opportunities as the rest?
In Singapore, priority will still be given to their citizens and PRs. It also depends on your performance and whether your HOD recommends you for the post.
GP – On paper, should have equal standing once you have PR although some postgraduate colleges will explicitly say they give preference to graduates of Aus/NZ universities. The reality is that an international medical graduate from a developing country is likely to be placed near the bottom of the list for the very popular specialties (e.g. surgery, orthopaedics, radiology, dermatology, ophthalmology, cardiology, gastroenterology).
Thanks nav for the reply.
I totally agree with Dr Pagal that you did make right decisions not to come back.
Stay on in NZ and continue to give valuable medical infos for the needy, both in malaysia and other third world countries.
On the other hand i feel sad for our nation losing yet another specialist!
I would not classify the people looking for information on this blog as ‘needy’ – merely concerned about their future or their children’s future. I think Dr P has done a great job in getting the message out there and disseminating information.
Nav, why did you decide not to come back? I thought Najib is giving lots of perks for returning experts? and with your family close by doesnt that entice you?
but i think each to their own. some people are happier overseas. it all boils down to how we feel and what fulfils us.
though i have been in britain for 9 years and have many friends and get along well with others, somehow i still feel my heart is with my fellow sarawakians in Borneo. somehow sometimes i still wish i can utilise my skills and knowledge for them in the future.
i am celebrating my 30th birthday next week! yes, 30! i did engineering for a few years in Curtin university before swapping to Medicine! booked a ballroom in a hotel in Abergavenny and invited my friends and colleagues to celebrate the big 30 with me. some of them will be coming all the way from London and Cardiff. my friends from London are taking two days leave just to come! how awesome is that?
You are still naive. You will know how the system works once you are down here. However, since money is not an issue for you, Sarawakians really need a lot of help from people like you.
@Jeffery, what sort of perks, specifically, is Najib giving?
Dr P, I am not rich. I just have a God who owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He never fails to provide. I guess whenever I need finances to do His will, He only need to sell one of the cattle to pay for it. God is my Provider. He has been very good to me 🙂
So far I have about 20 friends and colleagues coming for my 30th birthday dinner. I am really looking forward to it as I have heard a lot of good things about the hotel but never dine there myself. Apparently the afternoon tea is one of the best in the country there. Getting my suit ready for the auspicious occasion. A doctor friend and his wife is coming from London too! What an honour! And a few of my friends with children are looking for babysitters so that they can come as a couple 🙂
And my Cardiology consultant said he will try to come though he may be a bit late. He will still have a drink with me after dinner though. He just bought two new BMWs recently including a four wheel drive. He told me I will be able to afford it too if I become a consultant here. But I told him that is not what I want in life. Not money or fame. I just want to be a good doctor, help my fellow men and be faithful to God.
The greatest joy in life is when you are satisfied in who God is and all He has for you. My motto in life: love God and love man.
Haha, that’s a nice way to put it. What I mean is, you would not be able to do medicine in UK if your parents are not rich. Of course, everything is a gift from GOD. It is people like you who should serve the public as you do not need to worry about money.
BTW, owning a BMW in UK is not that difficult. It is not that expensive unlike in Malaysia where it cost as much as a house!
@Jeffery
So Sarawak will be lucky to have you. It’s good to have a strong christian faith, as with the basic premise of all religions, helps keep one rooted with decent moral compass. Just a word of caution though, don’t get too carried away with oversharing your faith with your patients in Malaysia especially. Personally I would find it uncomfortable, as a patient.
Jaz, I never talk to my patient about religion here. I know I am working as a doctor, not a pastor. I show God’s love to them by caring for them and being understanding and trying my best to give them the best treatment as much as it depends on me. I am sure the way I live my life will itself be a testimony of God’s power at work in my life.
Maybe one day God will call me to be a missionary doctor. Who knows? Perhaps then it will be different.
The perks for returning Malaysian doctors are listed in the Talent Corp website. I went to one of their roadshows last year as well.
Returning to Malaysia/Singapore has its pros and cons. Also depends on what a person is giving up as well. I can produce a generic list of pros and cons but each factor weighs differently for each person so the decision will end up being a very personal one. I will never discourage someone from returning home if they feel it is the right choice for them. But they should do so with eyes wide open and not based on some romantic notion of what life in Malaysia/Singapore used to be.
I have abandoned any notion of religion in my own life so have had to rely on rational thinking, common sense and humanistic values to make my decisions.
Family is often mentioned as a significant reason for choosing to return to Malaysia. But in my case, family is the very reason I decided to take a consultant post and settle in the UK instead of returning home. Unlike many whose family considerations focus on the previous generation (ie: parents), I was taught by my own parents to focus on the future generation instead (ie: children).
Despite all the pull factors and my deep sentiments for Malaysia, I would never want my children (and their future generations) to live in an institution of constitutional racism. My children born and raised in the UK see Malaysia as simply a great place to go on holiday every summer. They do not look to Malaysia with the same sense of longing as I do, and indeed never will.
It takes the sacrifice of just one generation to change the path of future generations.
Yes, agreed. Our ancestors came to Malaysia with the same intention of better life. The same goes to the future generations. People move to where they feel they will get a better life. My father told me the same thing. He had always asked us to migrate but financially, we were not capable. Now, I just feel I will send my children abroad and follow them!
Hai, I’m from India I’ve completed my diploma in ophthalmology from Ramachandra medical college. Is it possible For me to work in Singapore. Wat type of tests should I take to work there.
Your basic medical degree must be recognised by Singapore. Pls check with SMC
there is doctor shortage in India. Why you want to work in Singapore ?
If you want to become an ophthalmologist and have a great passion to serve your people as a doctor, don’t come to Singapore, work in India !
I think the only reason you have is MONEY
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-07-11/india/40513217_1_young-doctors-health-system-primary-health-centres
I think there are too much doc in india.
Your response would be similar to a British/Australian/US citizen telling Malaysians on this blog to stay at home because there is a shortage of specialists in Malaysia and the only reason they have for moving is money.
Hi I have done MD anaesthesia from madras medical college chennai,india..im from india..can I practise anaesthesia in malaysia?
Nope. Your degree is not recognised in Malaysia
If you have FRC Oph then you can work after so many paperwork
Work in India, there is shortage of doctor !
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-07-11/india/40513217_1_young-doctors-health-system-primary-health-centres
Do you think India Health Authority/ Medical Council will easily give license to foreign doctors coming from 3rd World countries like Ethiopia, Uganda ?
” Dear India medical council/ health authority,………………
I have done MD anaesthesia from Kenya Medical School Nairobi, Kenya..im from Kenya.can I practise anaesthesia in India ?
Best regards,
XXXX, Kenya Ophthalmologist, Fellow Republic College of Ophth ( Kenya )
——————————————————————————————————
Do you think India Health Authority/ Medical Council will easily give license to foreign doctors coming from 3rd World countries like Kenya ?
Of course, India medical council WILL NOT give license to Kenya ophthalmologist, >>>>> unless his ophtalmology postgraduate training is done in UK, US, NZ, Australia.
Similarly, Of course, India medical council WILL NOT give license to Kenya anesthesist, >>>>> unless his anesthesia postgraduate training is done in UK, US, NZ, Australia
Dr Pagalavan,
I heard that some of the graduates with a degree in Biomedical Science,pursuing medicine in local universities..in this case,is it known as Medicine Graduate Entry here in Malaysia?Dr.I need your enlightenment on this course.May I know what is the duration of GEM?
Thank you.
only I medical school offers graduate medical course which is Perdana University. The course is 4 years.
The rest are similar to undergraduate medical course which is 5 years.
Thank you very much for clarifying my doubts Dr.Your blog posts are an eye-opener..these blog posts should be exposed to those in secondary schools so that those interested in taking up medicine can understand the reality of being a doctor.Thank you once again!
If you have a degree, you can apply to an undergraduate medical programme and they may give you 6-12 months exemption, depending on how their course is structures.
Those with a degree can apply to enter any of the undergraduate med schools in Msia, but there will be no exemption from any part of the course.
Does “religion” affect the postgraduate application for master ?
Will the program director/ head of department reject christian pribumi, and prefer Moeslem pribumi ?
Among UM, UKM, and USM, which one is the most racist in term of accepting “non pribumi” candidates ? Which department / program ? Why ?
They have a quota system for bumis and non-bumis
Hi, Dr Pagalavan. What do you think about the master program of ENT offered by KPJ hospital? is it recognised as specialist after completing the program?
I had given my comments over here and here
Dear Dr Paga,
I am a med graduate of University of Leeds (IMU twinning programme). Due to some personal reasons, i have decided to leave Uk to work in Msia. My current plan is to take Mrcp and subsequently apply for sub-specialization. Alternatively, I am thinking of going over to singapore with MRCP. Is this plan of mine sounds feasible to you? Would appreciate greatly if you could shed some light on this issue.
looks fine
you say here that the bond is 5-7 years after finishing “local” master.
Why there is discrepancy ? which one is 5-year bond and which one is 7-year bond ? Is this 5-7 year “bonding” master program only OR master program PLUS fellowship/ sub specialty training ?
Is there compulsory bond for someone who completes postgraduate training in UK ( with CSST letter ) ?
Which on is better close system or open system ? Why ?
5-7 yrs doesnt make much difference lol
5 years is for off campus and 7 years for in campus. This does not include subspeciality training bond.
There is no bond if you do postgraduate in UK without scholarship but still need to do compulsory service of 4 years.
Personally I prefer infamous as it is done in a university teaching hospital.
Hi dr,
I’m a medical student studying in local U, I heard that JPA holder stands a better chance getting into master program compare to non-JPA holder. Can I know is it true that this unstated “terms” do exist? As you know there are lots of “things” in this country that weren’t stated out by officials but everyone knew they do exist..
As far as I know, there is no such thing
Thanks very much dr. Besides that can I know whats ur opinion about working in singapore rather than malaysia since houseman? Better opportunity? since meritocracy was practiced. Which country had the most uncertainty for doctors? Hope to hear your thoughts on all these. Bdw I’m just an average student in my uni.
It depends on you. If your degree is recognised in Singapore than you can get a place in singapore. Even though it is meritocracy, preference is given to their citizens and PR. Whether you will get a training post or not , depends on availability at the time of your applications and your performance as a HO/MO. ALL countries seem to be having uncertainty
Dear Dr Paga,
A few questions that you could help me with:
1) What are the prospects of life beyond completing local Masters in Family Medicine? Can a medical subspeciality be pursued after that?
2) Are there any other ways to be deemed a dermatologist besides through MRCP locally or internationally?
I love your posts! Also love the amalgamation of bright and willing-to-help minds!
Your input would be much appreciated!
Dermatology is a sub-specialty of General Medicine, and you need to go through that pathway. Family Medicine is an ‘end’ specialty, it is NOT possible to use it as a pathway into medical sub-specialty.
1) Family medicine is family medicine. That’s it. You can sub specialise in family medicine subspeciality like child health, adolescent health etc etc. You can’t do Internal medicine subspecialty.
2) None
Obtained my MBBS from India. I’m a medical officer in Malaysia now. And am currently looking for options that have both local as well as international weightage.
My interest lies in Dermatology but i’m open to explore family medicine as well.
For Dermatology, you need MRCP and another 3 years training in Dermatology.
For Family medicine, you can try FRACGP which is conducted via Academy of Family Physician Malaysia
Dr Paga,
This may sound controversial, but there are a number who only have few years of working as an MO in dermatology department with diplomas/certificates in dermatology and are marketing themselves as dermatologists or aesthetic physicians in private practices. No internal medicine training whatsoever or any masters/membership qualifications! I wonder what is MMC’s stands on this?
There are also Malaysian doctors with random diplomas in cardiology, paediatrics, and O&G calling themselves specialists. Or even general dentists calling themselves orthodontists after spending 6 months in some attachment instead of doing the full 3-year training. All this is not new. The National Specialist Register was supposed to take care of this (on the medical side anyway) but I can’t comment on how far they have gone in enforcing it.
These diplomas are meant for GPs who want to further their interests in particular areas, not for doctors to make false claims about being specialists.
The NSR is supposed to deal with this. However, the NSR currently is still a voluntary registry, administered by the Academy of Medicine Malaysia. The revised Medical Act 2012 will deal with this, as registration as a specialist is now mandatory, as was registration as a medical practitioner before. When the Regulations are implemented, the NSR will be taken over by the MMC, and then, no doctor can call him/herself a specialist unless he/she is registered with the NSR. That will put a stop to this practice of unqualified doctors calling themselves specialists.
Yes, this happens as MMC is yet to enforce compulsory specialist registration. Under the amended medical act 2012, it will be made compulsory soon. The diplomas are for GPs with special interest. IN the 1980s, they can call themselves dermatologist but not anymore. You can make a complain to the state UKAPS unit.
What about the mushrooming of these aesthetic centres manned by these ‘dermatologists/aesthetic physicians’? Are these centres regulated by MOH? These centres are aggressively marketing themselves. Some are promoting themselves in discounted deals website in their attempt to lure customers. Quite cheap, desperate and unprofessional I must say although I understand these are all part of the marketing gimmicks!
Hi Dr.Pagalavan! Can I do my postgraduate studies/training overseas if I graduated from NUMed?
Thank you.
Nope. NUmed is not recognised anywhere else.
Well, technically, the degree is recognised by GMC. However, you are not eligible for FY in UK, and not eligible to sit for the PLAB exam to obtain eligibility. I know, it’s a strange situation!
Dr Paga and Positive,
i understand Numed’s degree will be recognised by UK GMC hence, there should be some weightage of it if applying for Postgraduate in UK or US for instance. Unless, i am wrong, kindly advise. What about Monash Sunway degree then? I understand that Monash Sunway graduates are also registered with the Australian Medical Council.
This is where many people are mistaken. Even if GMC recognizes the degree, you need to do internship in UK in order for you to get full GMC registration. Due to prevailing immigration law in UK, the chances of you getting a work permit in UK is almost NIL. This is stated in NuMed website and GMC website and I had also written about it in this blog. Furthermore, GMC is already planning to have a different type of recognition for overseas UK universities. If you do not do internship in UK, you will not be able to work in UK as you will not be able to get GMC registration.
The same rule applies to Monash Malaysia as well. Due to internship crisis in Australia, the chances of getting an internship post in Australia is also very small. For 2012 graduates, only 7 out of 60 who applied got a post.
Thanks Dr.Pagalavan! So, which one do you prefer? IMU(Local Programme) or NUMed?
IMU local is more established with good academics
from what i can predict based on the current trend, no one should be encouraged to join medical schools. unless you are given public uni seats, gov scholarships or able to afford western med educational fees.
It will be a big no no to become doctor from now,for malaysian,so long as current gov still in power!
why bother to ask which private med school is better or not, you will be jobless when you are done with the 5yrs course!
Dr Paga,
Thank you so much for your explanation, but i think we have not answered Positive directly. i am also keen to know this. Would it be an advantage to apply for Post graduate or specialist course overseas if one has an overseas University degree such as Numed and Monash ? My understanding is that if the degree is recognised by other universities overseas, with either AMC and GMC registration, hence it should be easier to get the postgraduate or sub-specialist course in the future. Kindly advise again.
This has been explained many times before. Medical postgraduate is not a ‘course’ you apply to do like going to university, but a full time series of jobs, leading to exams, and certification. Since it’s full time work, you cannot get training unless you are registered as a medical practitioner and has the necessarily work visa. Having a ‘recognised’ degree without registration and work visa will NOT get you a training job.
I think you got no idea what postgraduate training in medicine is all about. This has been written many times before in this blog.
Postgraduate education in medicine is NOT the same as any other course. It is FULL TIME working and part time studying/exams. YOu will be working full-time as a doctor/registrar while studying and undergoing assessments. Along the way, you will sit for exams which is NOT only written exam but also clinical/practical exams.
Thus, in order for you to do this in another country, you MUST be fully registered with the medical council. In order to be fully registered, you MUST complete your internship in that particular country like UK or Australia. That’s where the rules and regulations mentioned earlier comes into effect.
Without doing internship in UK, you will not be fully registered with GMC, same as for AMC.
I hope you get the point this time around.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I have been an avid follower of your blog and your posts have given me much information and help so far. I have a two questions that i would like to ask for your opinion and your advice.
1) i’m currently a second year MO in a psychiatric hospital. I would like to specialize in psychiatry and i have been considering either to do the local masters or the MRCPsych. Basically my choice is a qualification that is recognised internationally. I was informed by another doctor before that the MRCPsych is recognised in Malaysia but for the local masters, even if i were to have planned to gain experience overseas, it is not recognised and i would still have to undergo 2-3 years of their local program to be recognised. Could you shed some light on this issue?
2) is there any future for a civil doctor to gain any opportunity in Malaysia with a diploma or a masters in aviation medicine? and would you know where i can get more information about it?
i thank you sincerely for your time and your kind advise.
1) Local Master’s is not recognised overseas even though some countries may consider it on case by case basis depending on years of experience. MRCPsych is recognised in Malaysia. You can do your training here but you need to go to UK for the exams( 3 parts). pls contact Academy of Medicine for further info.
2) None.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I’m a final year medical student studying in UKM. I have received an offer letter from Singapore.I have a few questions that you could help me with: (1)As a doctor is a forever government servant in Malaysia. Is it risky to be a contract doctor in Singapore ? Especially I will have to compensate 250k since i am a JPA holder. (2)Looking at the future scenario of oversupply of doctors in Malaysia ,should i work in Singapore rather than in Malaysia?
Thanks for your opinion and advise.
Just wondering how long is the contract for?
i can guess what dr paga would answer:
you should work in government,because your debt is a lot and government has secured a job for you
to UKM
1)Are you a chinese or indian or bumiputera?
2)How many of your friends in your medical school received offer letter from singapore?
3)How much is the salary and tax that u have to pay in singapore?
4)How long is the contract
5)Are u planning to further your study in singapore
It is entirely up to you. Both have pros and cons. Singapore will also get saturated soon when 2 of their newer medical schools begin to produce graduates.
The problem may occur when you decided to come back to Malaysia. Their residency style training system is yet to be recognised in Malaysia.
Actually, I often wonder why students take up the JPA scholarship, when they are admitted into IPTA. The fees are so minimal, it is really not worth that ‘scholarship’ they give you.
If the bond is only for 3 years, it may be better to just finish that up, rather than pay so much money. For junior doctors, you are NOT paid that much in Singapore to think that paying up RM250K is worth it. Remember that the cost of living in Singapore is high, and a big chunk of your salary will go into housing. You probably cannot afford a car on a Houseman’s salary.
If you do go to Singapore and eventually do postgraduate training there, make sure you do the traditional pathway, not the fast track American style Residency pathway, so you have the option of returning to Malaysia.
Although JPA will finance you for about RM15k a year including living & tuition fees in IPTA which I think average family can still afford, JPA will also provide you job security at this 10-year bonded tenure during which you can continue your specialty study. Looking at our soon-to-happen glut of doctors, JPA scholars may be given some preferences both on job/speciality trainning one day. The self-sponsorship for minimal fees in IPTA are not much the issue here.
As advised by Dr. Pagal, if you don’t have the intention to do your speciality and wish to become GP or go somewhere else right after your 4-year training/service, then don’t take up the JPA scholarship because you’ll be bonded for 10 years.
After 6 months working in SIngapore, you can apply for PR. So the contract shouldn’t be a problem – unless you are incompetent of course, then it won’t get renewed. With the glut in Malaysia, your prospects and training will likely be better in Singapore. But life in Singapore is not the same as Malaysia … more stress, less time, kiasu ++, etc.
I am a fully qualified Bangladeshi doctor with more than 10 years of experience
Can I do postgraduate training in Malaysia ?
You need to ask the respective universities.
3 years contract.
RM250,000=SGE100,000(approximately)
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I have been reading your blog and I think it’s great that you are providing outsiders with information abt Malaysian Healthcare system/training, which sometimes can be unfamiliar and foreign to us.
I am a Malaysian surgeon in Australia and have been contemplating coming home for some time. However, information (apart from your blog) is difficult to sieve through, for eg. looking at MOH website, positions are labelled with codings like UDP 51, 53 etc. which doesn’t make sense what position level they really are. MMC website is better but not entirely helpful.
I would appreciate it if you can help me with some enquiries or point me to the right direction. I am a graduate of an Australian Medical sch and having finished internship , BST , AST in Australia (-> FRACS several years ago) . Also, done 3 yrs Fellowship in 3 different university /academic tertiary centers.
1. If I came home, would I be able to get a job as a Consultant (similar to Australia). I am unsure what these period of gazettement is (and whether it’s applicable)? Is a specialist (Pakar) same as a consultant position?
2. I note that there is a suggestion that if one have worked for 10 yrs overseas, then we are exempted from compulsory service. However, this is not on the MMC website, just wondering if this is true?
I do not have a problem working in the public system. My hesitancy is the availability of technologies as well as rumours that Senior Consultants overseas who have return were asked to work as a registrar doing unsatisfying work.
Thanks again for your help.
Best Regards
I would suggest contacting Talent Corp. They have people who specifically deal with returning doctors and you can get a few perks by going through them to return (15% income tax for 5 years, cheap cars, etc).
Ask them all the questions about gazettement … I personally would not settle for anything less than a specialist post. Specialist is not necessarily the same as consultant (an old British hierachical nonsense thing that we seem to have retained). One becomes a consultant after a few years of being a specialist, but I can’t tell you what the ‘promotion’ criteria are.
I think it is pertinent to note that the professional/departmental hierarchy is not the same as the civil service salary band hierarchy. Where you stand in the department depends on where the head of Dept. thinks you fit. The professional hierarchy is something like HO-MO-Registrar/Masters trainee-fresh specialist awaiting gazettement-full specialists-consultants. Of course not all categories will exist in all departments.
The civil service salary ranking follows a different format, something like U41-U44-U48-JusaC-JusaB-JusaA. While generally both will flow upwards in tandem, there is no fixed cross equivalence.
For somebody who is already completed all specialist training, he is likely to be placed in the full specialist call level, but salary may be just be at U44, because the Civil service do not normally put people at higher salary bands on fresh entry into the service. The usual way to get a higher salary band is to be employed on contract basis, not on full employment basis.
Yes, Talent Corp would be the people to approach. They actually do regular road shows in major Australian cities, the last one in Brisbane.
I should add one more thing. Be prepared for a major pay cut. While govt salaries have improved a lot, it is still significantly behind the developed world.
Thanks Nav & jk for ur replies…
I wrote to Talentcorp 6 mths ago but haven’t heard from them…
I think paycut is inevitable… (although Spore seems to pay quite well with low tax rate and they offer job within 1 week of application). Having said that Spore is not Msia.
To me, pay is important but more importantly is Job satisfaction. I’ll be interested to hear what working (as a surgeon) in Malaysia is like. It’s standard of care in Australia for instance that most procedures are done laparoscopically. From my last impression (which is probably inaccurate & unfair , when I was an elective medical student 10 yrs ago), surgeons in GH were quite reluctant to embrace new technologies, not only in terms of procedures but also preoperative/diagnostic workups. If I am not employed as a Consultant specialist, will I then have conflict with the Consultant with regards to this. Will there also be a choice of hospital postings or as a specialist, can I still be posted to an outpost with minimal facilities.
Actually, there is no such thing as specialist or consultant post. It is up to the hospital to decide but generally all are the same.
Where you will be posted depends on availability of post.
Doctors are always subject to postings, to where ever there is a need. Minimally invasive surgery is widely practiced in all major govt hospitals. Hospitals where specialists are present will usually have a reasonable range of equipments. Probably equivalent to what’s available in Base hospitals in regional Australia. Most Heads of Departments will leave competent specialists to practice independently.
This may be of some help, as background to the civil service salary bands a doctor goes through.
http://codemedicus.blogspot.com/2012/09/malaysia-government-medical-doctor-part_9.html
Thanks jk… that’s great help.
What grade you will be accepted depends on JPA and years of service. Highly likely you may get UD52 at the most. If you are FRACS holder which is recognised in Malaysia, you will be considered as a surgeon in Malaysia/KKM.
yes, exemption will be given for those with 10 years of service overseas but I would encourage you to work in a public hospital to feel the real healthcare scenario and practice your skills before venturing to private sector. You may get shocked with some of the issues surrounding our healthcare system.
btw, pls allow me also to add a few thoughts..
Dr P..u’r blog is fantastic. It gives me an insight into healthcare system in Malaysia but from the thread conversations from others, i think it’s particularly useful for medical students and prospective doctors to understand the world that they r entering into… I m very impressed by ur (and others)’s patience in answering the questions posted by med students/jnr doctors…
I do find that a lot of the med students / jnr doctors does not really have much of an idea of medicine beyond medical sch and it seems to dominate the thread conversation here. I hope it’s ok for me to add several thoughts in this section since it’s about “Postgraduate Training”..
I must say there is a lot of talk/ambition for Malaysians/ aspiring doctors to become a specialist. Probably in Malaysia due to financial factors. Most ppl think that to be a specialist is just to enrolled in another course for a couple of yrs just like any degree and sit some exams. The fact that in Msia, it’s called a Masters programme probably doesn’t help. This is a false impression of what happens after graduation. A Professor I respected once told me , being a Fellow of a Learned College simply means u r allowed to have an opinion in that particular area. To be allowed that priviledge, it involves a lot of training which means a lot of clinical hours spent in wards, clinic, operating theater to learn the skills of the trade. This involves sacrifices but by the end of it (usually up to 10 yrs, there is no short cut to training… so stop thinking of words like fast track or direct entry) , u will master all the technical competencies and also the Non-technical ones ..like talking to dying patients, breaking bad news etc. The point here I am trying to make is that to be an expert is not about taking an exam, it’s about being trained formally as well as informally. The final exam doesn’t only look at ur knowledge but also ur professionalism.
Jnr doctors, It’s ok to be ambitious and plan ahead but enjoy ur current rotations and maximise ur learning. Work hard (just like any other job) and with some luck, u will get into a training programme and meet mentors that will teach u this art.
Medicine is hard work and sounds like in Msia, there might not be much job security in the future, but it is a very rewarding career.
Yup, you are absolutely correct. Most students nowadays got NO idea what they are getting into.
Enquiry,
There are quite few specialists/consultants from developed countries regularly contribute to Dr Paga’s blog but I don’t think I have come across someone from Australia of yet.
Since you have spent a good deal of time in Australia and now a Consultant Surgeon, what are the chances for a non Australian (Malaysian for example) medical doctor getting into a training programme after completing a stint as a resident MO in Australia? What kind of factors would favour someone to get into a training programme coming from a non-Australian medical school background?
I know this is a rather generic question but I would appreciate if you could give an insight about this. There are increasing number of Malaysians who are intending to leave to Australia for greener pastures. I know some who have been there as a medical officer for ages and still haven’t got into a postgraduate training programme yet!
Overall it’s pretty much performance based, the applicant should be an all-rounder. For anyone who is interested to get into surgery, as a resident, they will be assessed for their
1) level of medical knowledge and surgical skills
2) judgement – during clinical decision making
3) communication skills – which include applicant’s command in English
4) collaborative skills – if the applicant is a team player
5) professionalism
6) other traits – hardworking, dedicated, honest and reliable
7) research background (preferably has published an article or had poster presentation in a conference)
obviously good reference letters provided by the referees (preferably from those who are highly respected and well known in the surgical field) should highlight all these details regarding the applicant as those letters play a major role in the application process. It is also paramount that the applicant be well prepared for the interview process to increase their chance to get into the surgical training program.
btw, the non-australian applicant should be an Australian PR to be able to get into a surgical training program
that’s a very broad and generic question but i’ll try my best to give some insight based on my own experience (anecdotal).
First thing I want to emphasise though is that entry into training (getting into the programme) is just the first step. The process of becoming a specialist is long and tedious with lots of sacrifice and (specifically for surgery) a high dropout rate. Other specialities may differ.
An overseas doctor in Australia is termed IMG (International Medical Graduate) and upon passing AMC gets Prov Registration and 1 yr internship, get Full Registration. Then one is eligible to apply for PR (which may take several yrs) …with full registration and PR, there is NO difference between an IMG and a Local Australian doctor. The selection process in Australia is fair and transparent.
Surgical training in Australia is regulated by RACS and is a national selection process. Entry is competitive, meaning for eg. there is abt 100 Gen Surg positions nationally a year with abt 1000 applicants, <20 plastics position with I guess abt 100 applicants. The selection process is transparent.
In my opinion, things that will help u get into the programme are things like making ur interest known early, work in an tertiary center, research and good work ethics. These include being keen, show initiative and prepared to work hard to get the job done. Get a mentor early. Someone that will help u and support u in all levels of ur career. There are plenty of prominent figures/Professors around. In my experience, there is no/little discrimination between locals and australians. Note there are plenty of exMalaysian senior consultants/ professors in Australian hospitals.
I think the best advice I could give to someone applying is that the selection is competitive but if u do not get on the programme, the best thing is to reflect on ur application (and discuss with ur mentor) and look at how u can make urself a better candidate next yr. Be honest to urself.
Thank you for both of your replies. One thing is for sure, it seems to be rather tough for those bound to Australian shores for greener pastures and its going to take a long time.
Can somebody please help me with this? There seems to be some amount of confusion regarding the period of compulsory govt service : is it 2+2 or 2+ 3?
It is 2 years only. The Housemanship period is not considered compulsory service. If you do the Housejob in Malaysia, then it is 2+2. If you have done a recognised housejob elsewhere, eg, the FY in UK, then you only need to do 2 years when you come back.
It will soon be academic, as it will be abolished when there are too many doctors and not enough jobs in the Civil Service. However, when this is going to happen, there is no consensus, as there is no reliable data on how many medical students there are undergoing training in total.
2+2
Doctor,
Do you happen to know how stiff the competition is for clinical oncology postgraduate training in local masters programmes and how distinct is the bureaucracy over meritocracy in the allocation of this positions. Me and my parents are currently deciding between going for a local degree or heading overseas, and if possible i’d like to save on the hefty foreign education fees as I ultimately desire to work in Malaysia.
Also, have you ever happened upon any complaints regarding local ipta’s incorporation of the malay language in it’s curriculum or and adverse effects it has when you come out to work?
As far as I know, there is only 1 oncology master’s program in Malaysia! under UM. Thus I would presume it will be very competitive. Of course, you must also understand that there is NO transparency in selection process.
Medical courses are thought in English in all public medical schools. Only some pre-clinical subjects are still thought in Malay.
So sorry for the late reply and not expressing my self clearly the first time round, but what i was hoping for was your insight thus far as a medical professional on their postgraduate recruitment process.
hello dr. paga,
i have been reading your blog with much interest since lately….im in 5th year currently and very interested in becoming a nephrologist..my question completing MRCP exam as a first year MO,
1.will i be CONFIRMED to be gazetted as a specialist after waiting for 18 mths ?
2.is there such thing as HOD refusing to gazetted new specialist because they are inexperienced ? have u heard about this rumors?
tq sir
Based on current guideline, you can only be considered for gazettement after being in internal medicine department for at least 4 years. So you will not be gazetted as a specialist if you are just a 1st year MO. The gazettement process starts after your 4 year training in internal medicine.
YES, HOD can prolong your gazettement process if they feel that you are not competent enough to become a specialist.
Does one need to rotate between hospitals on one’s own initiative if one were to go via the MRCP pathway? This is because not all tertiary hospitals have all the subspecialities in medicine. Also, is there like a training log or something ?
Yes, it is your own initiative.
hi authorities….this is dr sara siddique khan from pakistan.i have complted my mbbs and 1 year of intership ..now im serving here as a medical officer…i want to do a postgraduate course in pedriatics in malaysia…
kindly tell me are there any?and how can i apply for it..
thanks
Firstly your basic degree must be recognised in Malaysia. Our local universities do provide postgraduate Master’s program for some foreigners. However, it may not be recognised in your country.
you have to be able to speak and write Malaysia language at upper intermediate/advanced level. In addition you must learn Malaysia culture. It is highly likely that you will NO longer use Malaysia language when going back to your country.
You also have to pay tuition fee ( there is NO salary, stipend though you basically work hard and receive a minimal level tuition/lecture at postgraduate level. In UK, USA, Canada, almost all wetsern European countries, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Qatar, etc you receive decent salary when you do postgraduate training ) and you pay, of course, living cost ( more if you bring your wife/husband/children, they will be on holiday for at least 4 years in Malaysia because they are on social visit pass/ visa – tourist visa !. So they CAN’T work to support you finacially in Malaysia )
when you return Pakistan Medical Council will NOT recognise Malaysia postgraduate training. So, you will return to work as medical office, NOT as a Pediatrician.
I think it much better to do postgraduate training in Pakistan – because no language barrier, cheaper tuition fee and getting decent salary, no accomodation cost if you do postgraduate training in the city where you live now, and of course Pakistan medical council will ALWAYS recognise their own Pakistan postgraduate training.
They are more postgraduate medical school in Pakistan
http://www.pmdc.org.pk/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=pIRIk6LfrPg%3d&tabid=341&mid=969
Dear sir,
I am currently a final year student. I feel so miserable when thinking of my future. Sir, I have several questions and please guide me, sir.
1. which hospital would sir strongly recommend to go for my housemanship?
i would like to take MRCS when doing my houseman, which hospital that i can have more opportunities to learn?
2. I want to be an ophthalmologist surgeon, I would like to do my specialist training oversea, what exam should I take? MRCS? or the respective country entrance exam?
3. oversea training is close system or open system?
thank you for guiding me.
I think these questions has been answered in this blog many times.
You can do your housemanship in any of the big state hospitals for maximum subspeciality exposure.
If your basic degree is not recognised elsewhere, you can not go overseas to do your postgraduate training.
MRCS is not a speciality exam. It is an exam to enter postgraduate training in UK. With the current immigration law of UK, it is very unlikely you can get a training post even if you have MRCS.
The only way to do ophthalmology is via the local master’s program. FRCS ophthalmology is another option but I am not sure which hospital is still considered as a training centre.
When I originally commented I clicked the “Notify me when new comments are added” checkbox and now
each time a comment is added I get several emails with the same comment.
Is there any way you can remove me from that service?
Many thanks!
I got no idea.
There is a ‘subscribe to posts’ page specific to your email. Easiest way is to place a comment on one of Dr P’s posts that you are not subscribed to, check thw “Notify me” box, the you will get an email asking you to confirm your subscription to new posts. Click on that link and it will take you to a page with all of Dr P’s posts that you are currently subscribed to. Form there, you can uncheck whatever you want.
There is probably a quicker way to get to that page,that I’m not aware of.
Dear sir ,
I am a singaporean planning to study in sichuan university.
can I have your decent advise knowing that the sichuan,s MBBS is not recognised by SMC but only the doctor of medicine or master of medicine?
is it good to study there in term of clinical training n medical education in china?
can advise me in all aspect if I opt to study at sichuan?
I would not recommend
I usually advise potential students inquiring about the quality of any country’s medical education, to consider one simple question. Is that country well known for a good quality, comprehensive health care system? Because you can only be as good as what is available, practiced, in that country. The culture, ethics of practice, philosophy etc will rub off on you.
China has a strange system, where Medical schools can be as many as 4 medical programmes, of different durations. The shorter programmes appear to be missing important components, eg Obstetrics. I don’t know how they can have different doctors graduating with different competencies. I believe only the 7 and 8 year programmes are recognised, as they are not missing important components.
The Sichuan 6 year MBBS programme for International students is not recognised by SMC.
so basically what you are implying that the medical education system in china is not as good as to equip its graduate with adequate clinical competencies???
so if I take the risk and continue ,what are the doors open for me upon graduation?…… can advise me on this
Dear sir ,
i m finishing my mbbs in another two months and i found that the degree will not be recognised to practise medicine in overseas. so how shall i proceed if i want to get job / post graduate in singapore or malaysia?
Wow, that’s a bit late in finding out, isn’t it? Based on your question, it appears you are not in Malaysia, so where are you, what nationality are you, and which University is it? You want specific answers, you have to give specific details.
are you a Malaysian? I presume not. Unlikely you will get a job in Malaysia or Singapore
I am an indian and my ug is from Sri Ramachandra University. I m thinking to write MRCP in malaysian / Singapore centre since im planning to settle there.So how is the possibility? will i get a job?
The degree is not recognised both in Singapore and Malaysia, so you cannot be registered nor work in these countries. You can sit for the MRCP exams anywhere in the world it is conducted, as long as you satisfy the conditions of eligibility. You do not need to be working in the country where the exam is held to sit. Sitting for and passing the exam in any particular country does NOT mean you can practice there.
You can do MRCP in India. With unrecognised degree, you will not be able to get a job in Singapore or Malaysia. However, if you have MRCP, you can apply for a job in Singapore.
can i apply for registration in malaysia and finish their exam needs so that my degree will be recognised by malaysian medical council and i can practise there?!
No. Your degree is not recognised, and your are a foreigner.
Malaysia unlikely to give you a job. Only university hospitals except foreign doctors, if your degree is recognised. Otherwise, you need to be married to a local in order to get a job in malaysia.
Good day to you Sir,
I am a US citizen currently engaged to a Malaysian citizen and I’m doing my 3rd year residency in Internal Medicine in a hospital in NY. I have completed the USMLEs and will be sitting for the US board exams soon. I would like to work in Malaysia after my residency and am wondering what are the prerequisites ?My questions are:
1.Do i have to sit for a Malaysian Board Exam?
2.Can i work in a private hospital in Malaysia and
3.Is there any way i can be exempted from doing the housemanship ?
Thank you for your time.
If your basic degree is not recognised in Malaysia, unlikely you can get MMC registration. I know one person who completed residency and married to a Malaysian but could not get MMC registration. American Board of Internal Medicine certification can be recognised as a specialist degree in malaysia. However, very unlikely that private hospitals will hire you. You can try your luck in university hospitals.
which is better-mrcgp or frcgp?
FRCGP
hi sir!
is the one year requirement after internship in india for writing mrcp, the person has to be in job for one year or just the lapse of one year after internship is required to appear for the mrcp part 1?
do we have to produce any proof of document for applying to mrcp part 1 of the one year after internship or just that 1 year should have passed after internship to appear for the exam?
You must be in service
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am a 4th year medical student in IMU and I am aiming to be a surgeon one day (I hope). And I am about to sit for my USMLE step 1, at the same time, I would like to have back up plans. I am curious to know, say if I were to sit for MRCS. As you have said some time ago, that MRCS is just an entrance exam just like USMLE Step 1 and 2 – where you are taking the exam to be eligible for training. So, for MRCS, after that, I can apply for surgical training at countries where the training is available, and after that, am I going to obtain FRCS after completing the training? and will Malaysia recognise FRCS?
Thank you for your time and effort.
MRCS is an entrance exam for speciality training. The only country where you can further your training for FRCS is UK or Singapore. I don’t think you can go anywhere else. As for UK, very unlikely you will get a job. FRCS is recognised in Malaysia.
As for USMLE, it is the same. Passing the exam does not mean you will get into their surgical residency program. I know many who failed to get any placement.
As for USMLE see this :
http://www.ecfmg.org/news/2013/03/21/img-performance-in-the-2013-match/#sthash.wWxHmrqq.dpbs
Hi dr., I have a question. I have obtained the MBBS from Melaka-Manipal (MMMC). I am keen to sit for FRACGP. Is FRACGP recognised in India?
You need to ask Indian Medical Council
I think the MMMC degree is itself, not recognised in India.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am grateful that I just found out your blog just yesterday (6 Nov’13). Currently, i am Year 4 medical student in one of Government University. I know this might be too early for me to ask all about postgraduate study but so far in this medical school that I’ve been through, I always think about what I would do in future. To be honest, had a great interest to further study in Pathology in future. Ever since i joint medical school since year 1, this great interest is still there. Initially I thought might be just a medical-student-day-dream to be a pathologist but after a few years i think I am going to be serious about this matter. I kept searching in internet on how to further study in pathology for mbbs graduates. I have a few questions to ask you:
1) If I am interested to further study in pathology (master and PhD) abroad (especially UK), do you have any ideas how? I mean after I done with Houseman training in Malaysia. Do I need to do compulsory service first before I can apply for it? If so, how long do i have to wait?
2) If I would like to further in Pathology in UK, do you think JPA will be able to sponsor it? For your information currently I am JPA holder.
Seriously I have no idea at all about this matter. I hope you can get some answers for me.
Hope you reply soon.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Firstly, why do you want to go to UK to do pathology? You can do Masters in Pathology in Malaysia itself. Your MBBS degree is not recognised in UK and thus, you will not be able to get a job there.
For the local Masters application, the same rule applies as any other Masters application.
thanks for the reply. I just wonder whether i can study in UK for Masters+PhD in Pathology for a few years, but not for working there. One of the reason because i really want to have experience to live abroad, so i’m thinking maybe i can get chance by studying there. Do you think is there any chance for me to further study in UK after i finish Housemanship later? do you have any ideas about scholarship if its possible?
thanks again in advance.
I think you don’t quite understand how postgraduate education in medicine works. There is no such thing as studying full time in medicine, after your undergraduate education. It is always: full time working, part time studying. Thus, in order for you to get a training post , your basic degree must be recognised by the medical council of the respective country. Please read this blog in detail to understand how postgraduate studies in medicine works. It is not the same as any other field.
Generally, most clinicians do not do PhD unless you are going to become a full time academician.
Hi Dr Pagalavan
First of all, thank you for setting up this wonderful blog which I think has enlightened many med students and junior doctors out there about this profession.
I just got one question for you regarding MRCP. From what I’ve read and heard, the MRCP is recognised as a postgraduate ‘degree’ in Malaysia, even equivalent to the four years Masters programme.
My question is, lets say if I literally just passed my MRCP and then I fly back home for good, will I be regarded as a general medicine specialist/consultant?
Because here in the UK, even if you have an MRCP, you still need to apply for a specialty post and be in training for 5-6 years more to get a CCT before you are appointed as a specialist/consultant. Without getting into any specialty training post here, you will just be an SHO (i think equivalent to MO in Malaysia) with an MRCP.
If just by having MRCP without CCT can make me a specialist in Malaysia, I might as well just fly back home. Don’t get me wrong, the working life here is great and pay is good. But in terms of social life, it’s not that great. Missing the Malaysian atmosphere and my family really badly!
Of course u need to be trained after passing mrcp lol..u’ll b gazetted.
Nope, you still need to complete at least 4 years training in internal medicine before you can be gazetted as a specialist.
Oh. Ok. Im at crossroads then now. Four more years in Malaysia or 6 more years here in the UK. I do think the 2 years extra here will just pass quickly since it has always been busy. But the comfort of being at home with family is also very tempting. Anyhow, thanks for your reply Dr Pagalavan. Guess I need to think and delve more carefully into this matter. I honestly have no insight in Malaysia postgraduate training till I found your blog! Looking forward to read your next entry!
I think this has to be qualified. The 4 years can include the postings/jobs done previously relevant to the qualification. For example, if you have worked post housemanship, 3 years in a medical rotation before passing the MRCP, you will then only need to work 1 more year in a recognised posting/job to complete the 4 years.
There is still a gazettement period, which was (not sure if still is) 18 months, before you get full gazettement as a General Physician.
Hi Dr Pag.
Would appreciate your opinion on this.
Currently I’m a MO in a district KK.
I’m a UK grad, did a year in the UK as a FY1 doctor thus have full GMC registration (but not license to practice), and later on came back to Malaysia and have worked in quite a few depts/hospital/kk in Malaysia. Have finally made up my mind as to what I want to specialized in, and decided that GP is the best option at the moment, with interest in Surgery (have done 3 yrs as a Surgical MO)..
Regarding the FRCGP course in Malaysia (conducted by AFPM):
1) have you actually known anyone who went for this?
How do they compare to the FMS produced by the Masters Programme in terms of their quality/skills etc?
2) I have read that the FRCGP is accepted in Aus, how about in NZ?
I know that with my undergrad degree and GMC, NZ or Aus are good alternatives should I decide later that I want to work abroad +/- might even get permanent residency there.
3) Can you also please shed some light on how to get a GP training post in NZ under their RNZGP?
Is this qualification accepted in Msian practice?
Many thanks for your/anyone-else-who-might-know comments!
1) yes, I do know a few. Masters training program is definitely better as it is more structured. FRACGP is more of self learning. It is entirely up to you on what rotation or postings that you want to do.
2) I am not sure but usually whichever that is recognised in Australia will be recognised by NZ.
3) Not sure
Thank you very much for the input Dr. Pag 😄
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Hello Sir,i am currently a final yr student in a local private university. I would like to ask whether can i do my housemanship overseas for example in singapore and then continue as MO there?Will i be able to come back malaysia to work after that?
Also,i am interested to further my studies in internal medicine.With your great experience,Which one do you recommend??The local masters programme in local uni or take MRCP?But i heard that the passing rate of MRCP is very low.The local masters programme is not recognized overseas.Need your advice,Sir.
This has been addressed many times, and Dr Paga has replied numerous times as well.
I think you should spend more time reading this blog.
Your degree is NOT recognised in Singapore, thus would not be able to do housemanship in Singapore.
Of course, master’s is more well structured compared to MRCP which is more of self learning.
hi Dr Pagalavan.
i have been reading ur blog since i was a HO
currently i m a MO in healh site
i really hope u can solve my puzzle here.
iniially i was so interested in internal medicine,hence i sat for MRCP and managed to get through it at first attempt.
but life in health clinics are so great and i could spend more quality time with family members.
now i m losing my interest to pursue my studies further and feeling very ‘lazy’ and demotivated to sit for PACES ,since i need to go back to hospital to enable me to sit for PACES, which means i need to do ONCALLS and LEAVE my family…:(
to make it short, where else can i use my MRCP results??eg can i join as pre clicical lecturer and do masters there??wil i get exempted for any exams??
thank you dr..good day
This is common. That’s the reason I said that you should not spend a long time in district hospitals or KKs. You will get carried away with the office hour work and relax life.
Your MRCP is worthless without completing all the 3 parts.
Dr Paga,
If a KK MO wants to do MRCP part 1, who would the proposer be? Would the FMS be appropriate? Because nowadays, needs proposer for MRCP part 1 and also part 2 written. Nowadays most medical departments will take on medical officers who has at least completed part 1.
You need someone with MRCP/FRCP.
OK DR..WILL TRY MY BEST THEN..TQ..
Almost all UM medical students are on JPA loan and be “tied”/bonded” for 10 years service.
If he finishes housemanship 2 years and compulsory service 2 years and now he is a master student at UM too. Does it mean that his bond is now only 5-6 years ( the bond is 5-7 years for master student ) ?
your master’s bond is additional to your JPA bond. However, your service during Masters will be taken into consideration as part of your undergraduate bond.
Can they break the JPA bond since the tuition fees in local universities are not prohibitively expensive ?
The bond price is not equivalent to the tuition fee. It is much more higher. It use to be RM 250K, not sure how much now.
I am student of master in surgery(UM)in 3rd year…my prof told me that your academic performance is poor and we will terminate you….can they terminate me in 3rd year…. whats the criteria of termination for master student…..
Of course they can!!
If you are not up to the standard they require you to be, they can dismiss you from the course.
Can the master student appeal prof’s decision ?
Yes
Why the prof wants to terminate him ( the student ) in year 3, why not the prof terminates him at year 1 or 2 ( earlier ) ?
Is the termination related to “skin” issue / pribumi-vs-non-pribumi ?
So, what is his compulsory service status for postgraduate training ?
Does he have to do postgraduate bond (5-7 years bond )?
Even if you quit or get expelled from your master’s , your bond stays.
The university can expel you at any time, even in final year.
Whether it is related to skin color, I don’t think so as it is not a decision made by a single person.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
Been following your blog since medical student.
Currently serving my HO-ship, 2 months into it.
I’m really interested in Pathology and plan to apply do do my Masters in Pathology after serving 3 years in government.
However, I would like to know if there are any external exams I can study and take first? I mean such as RCPA or MRCPath. I browsed their websites but could not find the info I wanted.
As I’m aware of, those who are interested to take MRCP can take their MRCP part I first and then continue with other parts during MO-ship. I was wondering for pathologists, are they any options? Can they take some exams first and continue later? Was thinking maybe I can take some early entry papers first now…
As far as I know, the only way is Master’s in Pathology. MRCPPath is recognised but I am not sure whether you can sit for the exam in Malaysia. You can check whether the exam is conducted in Singapore.
Dear sir,
Are Diploma Course in Aesthetic Medicine from AMERICAN ACADEMY OF AESTHETIC MEDICINE or MSc (Anti-Aging, Regenerative Medicine and Medical Aesthetic) from UCSI somehow recognized in Malaysia and give valid reason and rights to practice esthetic medicine in Malaysia.
Thank you.
There is no proper guideline on this. MSc by UCSI is approved by MOE/MQA
Dear sir,
Im an indian citizen staying in Malaysia for the past 8 years, im currently doing mbbs in Melaka Manipal Medical College. just want to know that will I follow the same system as in housemanship and MO or is there any other system for foreign doctors?
Firstly, foreign doctors will not get a job to do housemanship in Malaysia unless you got PR or married to a Malaysian.
Melaka Manipal on the other hand, is not recognised in India. I would advise you do medicine in India to be safe.
And yes, if you do get a job, the system is the same.
Thank you for your post sir, it has motivate me to find the course that i really passionate about.
I took STPM and scored 4 flat, and i am very interested in health science, but after reading your post, i had decided to choose health science despite all rejection from my parent and teachers… Now that i’m doing well in this course, with a really great dream & vision of my future. would like to thank you, your blog has been and always will be my inspiration. best regards.
I am Pakistani doctor
I want to do postgraduate training in Malaysia because I heard that the quality of postgraduate training is excellent.
Is it worth doing it ?
What is the requirement ?
Thanks
You need to contact the respective university for further info.
Firstly, your undergraduate university must be from one of the recognised medical school.
Secondly, you have to be able to speak Malay language at upper intermediate/ advanced level, therefore you must start learning Malay language now. Be aware that Malay language is spoken in Malaysia only. So, basically you waste time and money and energy to learn Malay because in your country Malay language is of NO use and you just use it in postgraduate training university hospital for only 4 years.
Once you finish your training you are highly likely return to your home country and you will NOT speak Malay anymore after struggling hard to “master” Malay language at upper intermediate / advanced level.
The tutorial/ lecture is in more or less Malaysian English, but when you talk to your patients you have to speak Malay. I think it is dangerous if you can speak Malay at upper intermediate level.
Will Pakistan Medical Council allow Malaysia citizen who knows Urdu language little ( at elementary/ intermediate level ) to do clinical postgraduate training ?
Third, even though postgraduate training is 90% work and 10% study, you receive NO salary for the hard clinical work you are doing and HAVE TO PAY tuition fee quite expensive. Also, you have to pay for living cost ( apartment, food, visa, plane ticket, etc ). Of course you must pay the cost more if you bring your wife, children, because your wife CAN’t work because she is on tourist visa.
When you return to your country, or other countries, what will you do with Malaysia postgraduate diploma ?
You must check whether your medical school is on approved medical school list. Secondly, you must speak Malay at upper intermediate/advanced level.
Next, you must also provide and pay tuition fee and living cost because there is NO salary/stipend for foreign student.
Oh, you should contact medical authority in Pakistan about the validity ( or the state of being legally or officially recognizable ) of postgraduate diploma from Malaysia university hospital.
http://www.pmdc.org.pk/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=pIRIk6LfrPg%3d&tabid=341&mid=969
Actually, if you do training there/ Pakistan you may save a lot of money and time ( no international bureaucratic procedure, no time to learn Malay language, cheaper living cost/apartment, your wife can work and support you for the time being, while in Malaysia, your wife CAN”T work – she is on tourist visa )
dear dr paga,may I ask is that undergraduate result consider one of the major criteria for selection for any master program in Malaysia or even it is important criteria for me if im planning to work in Singapore in the future after getting mrcp qualification in the future.im asking this as I m just an average medical student but passing is not a problem for me.but as i know different university hav different standard of exam,it is unfair if they put much consideration on this aspect.im passionate for what I m doing now.thanks in advance for your kind reply
It is a not a major criteria but it is one of the requirement. When you apply for Master’s, you need to submit your undergraduate results.
If you have MRCP then your undergraduate results are not required to apply for Singapore.
Hello sir ,
I have completed my foundation in science and would like to pursue my study into biomedical science.
May I get an clear advice from you for I am choosing this course and may I know it’s career prospects in malaysia?
How about the salary as I could not find anything about the salary and the job demand in Malaysia?
And may I pursue into medicine after after completing biomedicine?
I’m very confused as I don’t able to find someone who can help and advice me…I guess an doctor like you could help me.
Thank you sir.
Biomedical science is a broad field. There is no such thing as a specific job for it. You can become a lecturer, pharmaceutical rep, lab tech etc etc. Frankly, there are just too many higher institutions providing this course and producing just too many graduates.
Why worry about salary now ? you got a long way to go and do what you have real passion and interest in.
Of course you can pursue medicine after biomedical science if you have good CGPA.
Dear Sir,
As a STPM leaver and insist to doing medicine, is it okay for me to further study in Indonesia (eg: Universitas Padjadjaran) or locally?
I’m lost.
Lots of agencies offering us to studying abroad but which one is more reliable? After doing 5 years medicine in Indonesia then we will be enroll to do houseman ship under gov right?
Never listen to agents!!
University padjadjaran and gajahmada are ok. The rest I don’t trust.
Yes, you need to do housemanship after 5 years but looking at the current scenario, likely not everyone will get a job in another 3-4 years time. A common entry exam is being planned. Please rad this blog in full
If I wish to study in Indonesia, is it a must for me to ask help from the agency (eg : Mediced, Medic Prolink, KLC) ?
You can apply directly but agents make it easier. Unfortunately there are many agents out there who are just after your money
Dear dr, I’ve read the articles that u’ve issued regarding the exams and the master’s program. I’m a second year house officer and about to finish my housemanship shortly. Yet, I’ve decided to join orthopedic post housemanship. I have signed in to take MRCS in april 2014 in KL which the base is still unknown and at the same time I’m planning to apply for master that I know it’s quite a very long queue to be in. I wonder would it be right for me to proceed to MRCS and complete my MRCS oversea or to wait for the master program. Will it be any alternative for me to be specialized in a surgical bases field soon??
MRCS is not a recognised specialist qualification in Malaysia, so it is not an alternative. However, it will give you an advantage in applying for the Masters, and may exempt you from some exams.
You do not need to ‘complete MRCS oversea’ (sic), all components of the exams can be done in Malaysia.
I’ve heard about the exemptions and the privileges if I take the MRCS. Yet do I need to complete my MRCS all parts to gain the exemptions? Moreover, If I’ve completed MRCS without pursuing to master program, will my MRCS be qualified worldwide in other europian countries??
Passing all steps of MRCS is needed to be given priority in masters application. It may also exempt you from Part 1 of Masters exam.
Worldwide, MRCS is NOT a specialist degree. It is just a diploma to enter specialist training program
MRCS can be sat in Malaysia BUT it is NOT a specialist degree. You are only eligible to apply for masters after 1 year of MOship
from my understanding, MRCS is only an exam on principles of surgery….hence, it will never be a specialist degree except a test to examine the basic knowledge of the junior surgical trainee or stepping stone into a surgical training position.
I am Bangladeshi doctor and I want to do cardiothoracic surgery postgraduate training in Malaysia.
What is the exam ( is it something like USMLE ) ?
How much is the salary ?
What is the step-by-step procedure ?
Many thanks in advance.
As far as I know, Malaysia do not provide cardiothoracic training for foreigners. National Heart Institute may consider some foreign doctors but you must have a recognised undergraduate and postgraduate surgical degree.
http://www.nst.com.my/latest/psd-gathering-feedback-for-review-of-100-civil-service-schemes-1.461411
PSD reviewing qualifications and salary for 100 civil service post. Might be inclusive of medical officers post also. Any comments on this? Looks like laws are going to be enforced very very soon.
The time will come
It will be interesting on how it would fit in. MBBS/MD is a very long process. If they would begin a new requirement during applying through spa/psd. Those went 5/6years ago to study with the old set of requirement would certainly be affected. Not only for medical officers posting. I feel all other psd postings also will face it.
hi Dr, i’m a final year medical student in ukm. If I were to apply HO-ship in Singapore, will I be able to come back to Malaysia as Medical officer after I completed HO and may be few years of MO there if I didn’t continue any residency training or etc?
should be able to
hello dr, im currently doing housemanship in msia..it it possible to take no paid leave for few months to sit for an exam?
You are not entitled for no pay leave during housemanship.
Hi Dr Letchumanan,
Its amazing how many replies you have received for this post.
Can I ask a question – I am training for my FRACP and FRCPA (Clinical and Laboratory) Haematology and due to finish in a few years.
If i return to Malaysia, do I need to undergo further training to be gazetted? And will I be required to actually enroll for the masters programme locally to be recognized as a specialist?
Regards,
JJ
Since the degree is recognised in Malaysia and if you have certain number of years of working experience post exams, you may be able to be gazetted immediately.
Hi Dr. Pagalavan,
Thank you for your very informative entry. It gives a really good guide for junior doctors and medical student. Thank you very much.
I have a question regarding FRACGP training. Do you know if a doctor who is trained oversea (not a specialist yet), who is coming back to Malaysia to serve, could sit for this exam straight away, or do we have to complete any compulsary service with goverment’s hospital first?
Thank you.
Regards,
Faizah
If you return to Malaysia, you still need to do your compulsory service of 3 years, unless you have worked more than 10 years overseas.
FRACGP is done in Malaysia in collaboration with Academy of Family Physician of Malaysia which mandates a 4 years training program before being able to sit for FRACGP exams. Only then , you can sit for the exams.
hi dr. pagalavan..
I’m a gp from indonesia. and graduated from Airlangga university.. I don’t know exactly the regulation of medical work in malaysia. I just wanna ask you some questions: I will married with malaysian, he is a doctor too.. he graduated from same university with me.. but maybe I will not change my citizenship because I’ll back to indonesia. so my questions are should I take housemanship first or take an equalization program?. and how long the minimum employment contract usually? thanks for read and answer.. 🙂
Your degree is recognised by MMC. However, that does not mean you will get a job as a foreigner. If you are officially married to a Malaysian, than you can try to apply for horsemanship post in Ministry of Health. The chances are better. Unless you get your PR, you will not be able to work in private sector. The government sector contract is usually 2 yearly.
dear Dr,
what do u think about MRCGP (int)? .It is currently not included in NSR list. However, it is much cheaper option compared to exorbitant cost of taking FRACGP in mlaysia. Can it be considered as an option worth look into?
tq for ur advice
Hi Dr Pagalavan Letchumanan
I am malaysian who is currently stuying medical course in indonesia, so i would like to ask, is it possible to postpone the complusory service which is the medical officer in malaysia after done the housemanship for 2 years for the purpose of continue post-graduate study in other country such as germany?
thank you
How will you continue your postgraduate degree in Germany when your degree is not recognised there? Furthermore postgraduate degrees from Germany is not recognised here.
ohh..thank you dr. So if i wish to continue post-graduate degree, is it compulsory to finish the medical officer posting then only can futher my study?if i wish to become a cardiologist, do dr have any recommendation where would be a good place to futher my study in that specialisation?thank you so much for ur advice dr.
You need at least 1 year of MOship before being eligible to apply for Master’s program(does not mean you will get it on first try). To become a cardiologist, you first need to complete your Master’s in internal medicine or MRCP. Your training place and post will be decided by MOH depending on vacancy. Please read my blog post on ” Step by step approach in speciality training in internal medicine”
thank you so much for your advise dr!=D
Hello dr, i would like to ask something about houseman and doing masters. Im studying in Egypt and wondering if i choose to do my houseman abroad maybe in UK and after that continue taking my masters there would it be possible? Or i should go back to Malaysia and do my houseman first then apply masters? bcoz i heard that when u are in the Malaysian system its quite hard to get out and do masters oversea bcoz of the long waiting list and not enough doctors in Malaysia.
Is your degree recognised in UK? If I am not mistaken, you need to sit for PLAB Exam. Even then there is no guarantee that you will get a job in UK. And getting a post graduate post in UK is also not easy. It will be as tough as getting into Master’s in Malaysia
thanx for the reply dr. Here, i discovered that we can do Master’s Programme in Manchester University. Before i did not mention that im under Manchester Programme and now at 5th year of medical school. Here, after we graduated we can do Masters Programme in Manchester for two years if im not mistaken. Is it better for me to do the Masters Programme or i have to go back to Malaysia first and have my HO then went back for my master. I would like to know your opinion about this. Also, I dont really understand this Masters Programme too, am i going to be specialist after this programme? I hope you can enlighten me about this programme.
This Master’s program is not a clinical postgraduate program. It is for research. It will not make you a specialist.
Dr~ I’m a medical student in local government university. I’m not sure whether had you come across about working in China. My fiance is a China Chinese, so, I’m actually considering to go to China (as a doctor) to work after I graduated. Dr, do I have to take any exams?
As far as I know, all graduates in China need to sit for a common exam after graduating.
hi Dr Paga. I am now a medical officer in rural klinik kesihatan for around half year. and i interested to become an opthalmologist.
1.Can i know any ways to become opthalmologist in Malaysia despite master programme? because it was quite difficult to join hospital opthalmology dept.
2. wat are the criterias to join master programme of opthalmology? Thx a lot
1) FRCS(opthal) is still recognised in Malaysia but I was informed that only certain hospitals are accredited training centres. Try calling UH (UM) to find out the details.
2) Formally, all the criteria are the same. Informally, no one knows!
Dear Dr,
I find your blog very interesting. I am planning to start my Msc Internal Medecine from Edinburgh University. This programme is it a full speciality in Internal medicine or must I do another training post graduation. Is it accredited in Malaysia?
Thank you for your time
Msc is NOT a clinical postgraduate degree. It is for research. Thus, it is not a speciality degree of Internal medicine
hi dr pagalavan, im now 2 years MO in service, interested in doing internal medicine and i have got my mrcp part 1 & 2..
i would like to get ur opinion between master in inter med and mrcp..
i am thinking to join inter med master programme as i heard is more well-trained and easier to get subspecialty after gazettement..
looking forward for ur reply.. thanks
Yes, definitely Master’s is more structured but takes longer. As for subspecialty, it is the same. The current regulations says that the amount of training needed before applying for subspecialty is the same for both
hi dr.pagalavan …
thank you very much for this informations ^^ .
iam in final year medical school in sudan ..
iam intersted in orthopaedics ,i just want you to explain to me the steps to become an orthopaedist.
and can i have some trainings in malaysia ..
Are you a Malaysian?
Hello Dr,
so i know this is out of the scope and all, but what do you think about the future job prospects of biomedical engineers in m’sia. I’m planning to take ausmat and do a bachelor’s degree in chemical engineering, then do my masters in biomedical engineering.
Thank you so much Dr!
I got no idea but the job scope may be better overseas rather than malaysia
Hello Dr, I m thinking of taking a Pg Dip Clinical neurology (UK), can it be consider as a part of neurology specialisation in Malaysia?
Thanks for your time,
Nopr
Nope
Thanks Dr,
Could you advice anyone to take this course? what are the benefits one can gain from it?
Dr,
I would like to ask,is Master’s Degree from India is Recognised in Malaysia.?
No
Good day Dr.Pagalavan,
Having read most of ur top articles, i respect u from the bottom of my heart for willing to stand up and guide the public on wat the word ‘doctor’ really means.
I’m a final year medical student of a gov university. A number of my senior has off to Singapore to proceed their HOship, and some persuaded me to join them after my undergraduate study.
I dont mind the long working hours and not-tat-high salary in Msia, as money couldn’t buy experiences and the satisfaction of serving your homeland and your people. However, after speaking to a few registrar and drs, the words of highly limited postgraduate seats and bias selection here worries me.
I’m not the top 10% students of my batch, and have vry limited insight on the road ahead. Will it be better to aim for my postgraduate study in S’pore before return and offer my service in Msia? Wat it means by working in S’pore rather than M’sia? For now I hv yet gain enough insight to decide on my lifelong specialty, bt opthalmology, surgery, orthopedics and emergency medicine are my current interests.
Pls let me hear ur advise. The last but not the least, thank you so much for sparing ur time answering our question one by one. I am grateful for it.
What makes you think that postgraduate education in Singapore is guaranteed? It is going to be the same as Singapore is also producing more doctors of their own with 2 more medical schools. Only the biasness is less. BTW they do give preference for citizens and PRs. IF you are going into surgical field, Malaysia will still be a better place for practical training.
yes. biasness is really a problem in malaysia right now. i personally got a friend studying in the uk, about to finish in a few months time. initially she wanted to stay and work in the uk to get some experience before coming back home. but her mother, who is one of the big shots in this university promised to her that, if she comes back home straight after graduation, her mother will take care of her throughout housemanship and secure a place for her in the M Med (paeds) right after two year of houseman. NO NEED TO WAIT LONGER! strong cable maaaa…
Hi Dr. Pagalvan .. It will be very kind of you if you tell me what do u mean by the following sentences in your article??
1.choose an undergraduate course that is recognised internationally. ( is it the MBBS degree u talked about? )
2.Then, pursue a postgraduate degree that is also recognised internationally.
Thanks in advance
I think I had explained it in my article. Yes, I am talking about MBBS
I am sitting now for my IGSCE examination and I planned to be a medical doctor by getting into the local universities after getting the result. Would local universities accept IGSCE good result for Foundation courses?
Are you talking about public or private?
nite. dr.paga. I would like to ask since malaysia’s situation is so bad now. do we stand a higher chance to get a job if we come back as specialist after we hav finished our specialisation overseas? n when you come back, do you start again from houseman or do you do the work of a specialist? You start from UD52 izzit?
It depends whether your postgraduate degree is recognised in Malaysia! You will start either from U48 or U52 at the most.
If your degree is not recognised, than you need to work as a MO. If recognised, should not have any problem getting a job in MOH as we are still short of specialist. However, you can be posted to anywhere in Malaysia.
hello doctor,
i am working in a private hospital as medical officer. i would like to pursue my studies to enhance my knowledge and skills and also to prepare myself to become gp. i have seen some doctors with cert. in STD, MSN, easthetic and etc. im very much interested in STD and MSN but i have no idea where to apply for these courses. if you dont mind, can you guide me?
thank you
STD is under Dermatology. You can visit Dermatology Society website to look for courses. You can also visit Academy of Medicine/MMA website for further info on courses. Are you a MMA member?
Hi Dr,
Do you have any recommendations for government hospitals which can provide adequate and good training for a junior MO who intended to further in paediatrics? And how do we know when is the master programme entrance exam is held?
thank you.
Application for Master’s program will be advertised in main newspapers.
Any major state hospitals will do
wil the dfm programme continue in 2015?
please ask academy of family medicine malaysia
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am a fresh graduate this year. I have secured an offer for HOship in Singapore but I am still contemplating. The conflicting issues are working environment, financial and postgrad training.
I want to work in Malaysia but the potential issues I see are:
1) Financial. I know few MOs who had to do locum work to sit for the MRCP exam. Is this true that you have to work that hard to save for MRCP?
2) MRCP part 3. I heard for MRCP part 3 you need to be in a certain hospital to be able to do it and not in Klinik Kesihatan. I am afraid that I will be stucked in KK and not get the opportunity to complete the MRCP.
3) Environment. Slightly better hours and case exposure, so better for preparing for MRCP.
4) Financial situation may limit progress
However, the advantages of working in Malaysia are:
1) It is my home country.
2) Probably better prospect to do PG training than Sing
3) Can choose to wait for MMed
4) Can slog my hours, if I decide I like surgery. Not sure yet
-If I go to Sing and complete my housemanship there, will it be recognised if I want to return to Malaysia after HOship?
-If I manage to complete MRCP there, how many years do I have to serve before gazettement as specialist ?
Will appreciate your thoughts on this.
Thanks
It all depends on you. Are you JPA sponsored? If so, you will be bonded. Singapore training has changed to residency system. Thus, I am not sure how housemanship falls into place over there. If it is different, than you may have problem if you plan to return. You can come back after MRCP but still need to undergo the gazettement process as directed by MOH, after considering your experience over there.
Actually, MOs income now is enough but many of them over spend and already got married which increases their expenses and the need for Locum.
Hi, thanks for the reply.
What would you suggest? I am not bonded by anything.
I heard PG training is more based on seniority ie no of years, than qualification in Malaysia? Is that true?
I dont want to lose my seniority years then since I could also do MRCP here.
I am thinking of PG training post MRCP , I might be thinking too much now since I dont know how I will change after HOship.
But then, even you were advising us to go to elsewhere after MRCP. So I am kind of wondering, should I just go now.
Even in Singapore, there is no guarantee that you will get a training post. It is the same. However, since you are planing for MRCP, it can be done locally. Unless your intention is to migrate or stay put in Singapore
Dear Dr. Pagalavan: First I thank you for all this information exchange. Since the entire medical system in Malaysia is not well organized, with too many ‘flexible’ rules, it is such a hassle to navigate. Your website makes things a lot more easier.
I am a Malaysian who studied in India and have been working in India for the past 10 years (in internal medicine & intensive care). After marriage for personal reasons I am now shifting to Malaysia. Since my basic medical degree was not recognized, I sat & cleared the MQE. Now I have been posted as an MO in Sarawak (although the exact location has not yet been revealed to me by the MOH). Now I also wish to complete MRCP.
My query is this: What kind of hospitals (I am not aware of the hospital hierarchy in Malaysia) do you think will be conducive for MRCP preparation. And can I request the MOH to place me in such a hospital. Is this an option that the MOH would likely consider.
Thank you very much Pagalavan & wishing you a lovely day.
MOH will only consider after you have passed your Part 1. Till then you need to work wherever you have been posted. MRCP trainings are usually done at major general/state hospitals.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
You’ve mentioned many times that a foreigner cannot get a housemanship spot in Malaysia unless they’re married to a local. Well, I’m a foreigner in my final year at an MMC accredited MBBS program in Malaysia, and I’m legally married to a Malaysian. I would like to work in Malaysia once my degree is done.
What is the next step for someone like me? Whom should I contact or speak to about my application? Do I apply to Ministry of Health, or MMC? And what sort of documentation do I need? Does this rule only apply to foreigner spouses who have applied for a Malaysian PR? And since I didn’t do my secondary schooling in Malaysia, do I need to take Malaysian studies or civics classes or something of the sort first?
As you know, the MMC website states very simply “for non-citizens, exemption is given only to local graduates or those related or married to Malaysians” but doesn’t give any details. I hope you can help me out with this. Thank you!
Once you graduate, you need to apply to MMC for provisional registration after which you need to apply to SPA for a job.
Ok thanks for the info Dr Pagalavan 🙂 Will try contacting MMC too to find out any specifics.
Dear Dr.Pagalavan
I am a graduate from Russian medical university in 2011( 6 years .) MD was obtained.
University is not on the list of recognized medical school in Malaysia but in IMED.
To have postgraduate certificate( 1-3 years) in speciality from the same University in my country will not change the situation?!
To apply for postgraduate education in Malaysia do i have chance to be excepted .
Thank you.
Regards
Katerina
Yes, it will not change the situation. You need to sit and pass the MQE examination in order to be registered. Same applies for postgraduate education. You need to be a registered doctor to be eligible.
to dr pagalavan
i kindly request you spend few minutes on this
i finished mbbs in china,i am indian,i just want general sx,i did not clear license exam of here,i came across this mrcs recently,my university is nanjing medical university which is not listed in medical council of singapore,will i able to come to singapore after i finish mrcs 1,2,
if i come for training will i get paid, wat abt accomodation…
is there any exam to get license in singapore to atleast do house surgeon with stipend
thanks
HI SIR
I am slimane general practitioner from Algeria I want to do training or master ; dermatology and medical laser like remove tattoo ,hair removal laser , treatment of varicose vein ?????
thanks
There are NO such master’s here!
I mean diploma so that I can perform a laser hair removal and tattoo removal and treatment of varicose veins means I m looking for training that offer a degree
none that I know. Try Thailand
thank you Dr for your quick response, I just want to know what are the training and specialty can I do in malaysia and how I can make them knowing that I am general practitioner from Algeria and I have experience
as far as I know, no diploma programs in Malaysia. Furthermore, your basic degree likely not recognised here
thank you but if you have address university or private school so I try my luck because I love Malaysia and I wish I studied there and I love all the specialty as medical laser totes and other specialty ,You’re very kind.
thanks
None of the private schools or universities offers such courses. In fact most from Malaysia go to Thailand for training.
please if you know or email address to contact a university or hospital tailand for training or spcialité thank you in advance doctor
I got no idea. You can search the internet
Hello doctor. I’m a Malaysian, currently a 2nd year local medical student from IMU.
1) Is it possible for me to do masters/PG overseas & work in that particular country?
2) If I take the USMLE, how will it benefit my future career prospect/chance to work overseas?
3) Basically, what can I do to work overseas with this local degree?
4) I’m thinking of switching from the local program to the PMS(partner medical school) program but I’m still unsure due to financial reasons. However, due to the oversaturation of medical graduates in Malaysia & the limitations of career prospects, I feel like I should but I’m still torn. Please share your input. Thanks.
1) Nope as IMU degree is not recognised elsewhere. Unless you sit and pass entrance exams.
2) Only to work in US but no guarantee that you will get a post if you pass USMLE.
3) to sit for each respective country’s entrance exam.
4) The PMS program gives you advantage of graduating overseas and chances to get a job overseas.
Thanks for the quick reply, doctor.
1) If I stick to the local programme anyway, which means I’ll be graduating in 3 years time, do you think my batch will face some problems with unemployment? This is what worries me the most now. Do we have to be on a waiting list just to complete 2 years of Housemanship? What other problems will we face?
2) If I’m scholarship-bound, I know I would have to come back & possibly face the same problem as above anyway. And even if my parents are willing to fork out their savings for me, I am aware that there is very little chance for international graduates to be employed there. So at the end of the day for me, do you think going for PMS is really worth it? If I go for PMS, what other problems will I face, career-wise?
Thank you for your time.
1) There will be a waiting list for HO. That has been confirmed by MOH recently. Please read about it in my blog
2) JPA scholars will definitely given priority for job. Depends on which PMS : i would prefer Canada or New Zealand. In UK you may get Intership post but whether you will get training post or not, depends on availability.
I see. Thank you so much for your response!
Greetings sir,
I’ve got offers from both UMS and NUMed (Newcastle University Malaysia). Can you please enlighten me about which will be a wiser choice? I’m a JPA scholar.
Thank you in advance.
Frankly I would suggest USM as they are more established with their own teaching hospital.
sorry sir, but its UMS in sabah.
Both are OK.
thanks sir! =D
hellow..
my name is Mohammad Umar and i’m from pakistan. i have completed my mbbs and one year housejob. currently i’m preparing for MRCS part one and would hopefully appear in coming 2015 April. i would like to know is there any chance of getting residency in surgery in malaysia? do i get any edge if i clear MRCS part 1? how long is the sub-speciality residency? how much is the pay? do i get any accomodation? if compared to australia,middle east or european countries is malaysia a better option for residency or not?
kindly help me out with it.. thanks
There is no such thing as residency program in Malaysia. IT is a 4 year structured Master’s program. Some limited number of post are given to foreigners. You can contact UM, UKM or USM for further info.
hello Sir,
I am plaining to do master in radiology,
just wanted to ask your sugesstion for FRCR is acceptable by malaysian medical council.
if we do payed masters in radiology , is it legal to do part time practice
thanking you
FRCR is recognised by Malaysia.
Are you talking about part time practise after Master’s or during Master’s?
sir i am talking about part time practice during masters,
because i am told that if i choose self sponcered master , i will not be payed any salary by govt.
sir if FRCR is sucessfully completed , will i be able to practice as radiologist in Govt hospital?
any time period for being gazzetted
If you are already a MOH staff, salary will still be paid by MOH. However, it is compulsory to take JPA scholarship to enter Master’s program as far as I know, unless things have changed. Master’s is a full time course. Thus, usually you can’t practise outside except for locums.
you will need to do 6 months gazettement after passing FRCR.
Thanks for information Sir.
i am quite clear now with your answer.
i am planning to go ahead with FRCR.
hope no new amending of rules will be for FRCR in malaysia.
have you seen any senior doctor done or doing FRCR?
if So kindly let me know , because i want to be aware of any problems or tips during the Journey of FRCR.
Yes, I know a few who have done it
Kindly , if you can provide email adress or any contact number of anyone of them , for purpose of information.
Hello Doctor,
I am one year mo in klinik kesihatan
I want to do FMS,
I want to apply for master programme.
1.Staying in kkm which hospital/ univ I can apply?
2. I heard have to prepare some exam before get masters ?
3. What books or what subject I need to prepare for that exam to enter master programme?
4. Do I need any recommendation from my HOD?
5.how long will be the duration of doing master in FMS?.. Is there anything such as ‘part time master.?
Thanking you .
As far as I know UM, UKM , USM has Master’s in family medicine. As for exams,lease ask the uni.
All master’s application process is the same. ALL master’s program is part time studying , full time working! All master’s program is 4 years!
Hi Sir,
I am not a graduate from UM and UKM but from a local private university. If I have completed MRCS part I & II in Malaysia, will I be able to go to S’pore for my MRCS training and part III completion.
You can only go to Singapore once you have completed MRCS.
Latest trend, mrcs is a ticket to work in sg as MO, but no training post, basically function like HO,in Msia to do house jobs, no surgeries allowed.
It has always been like that. You function as MO first and then need to wait for training post, assuming your boss likes you.
Hi doctor, really appreciate that there’s still a working doctor who answered people’s questions patiently. Well done!
I have a question which is after I finished my local IMU MBBS programme. Am I able to take the MRCS test and be a specialist in Singapore? Your reply is much aprreciated. Thank you.
MRCS allows you to work in Singapore BUT not as a specialist. You can be employed as MO and then need to wait/apply for specialist training post. Only after you finish your specialist training post, you will become a specialist.
Thanks for giving out so much infos.
I have a question.
If i pass my FRCR exam where can i work overseas?
Singapore and UK, if you get a job
Greetings.
I have heard recently that those who have passed mrcp must undergo few compulsory subspecialty rotations before they can be gazetted. Has this been official yet?I think that not all mrcpian get a chance to work in tertiary hospital with subspecialty department. Thanks.
I am not sure. You can contact KKM Bahagian Perkembangan Perubatan
Hello sir,
your blog is really helpful.thanks a lot.
I have completed my MBBS degree from Bangladesh last year. now i want to do my post graduation on Pediatrics in Malaysia.i am also really very much interested to migrate permanently in Malaysia.i am going through lots of information in internet but i am getting confused.it will be very helpful if you let me know what should i do next or in which way I should proceed.
thanks.
Firstly, your basic medical degree must be recognised in malaysia. However, Malaysia has stopped providing jobs to foreigners due to oversupply of doctors. You can still try to apply for Master’s program conducted by universities.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Ok I will apply for the Masters’s program.
one more thing,which university will be the best to apply for Masters program?
I will find further information through their website.
thanks again.
dear sir,
I am Sarra from Sudan, i have done my MBBS is Malaysia and now i am trying to find a place to do my houseman (in a country beside malaysia as the Malaysian government does not offer houseman training for internationals). any advice and suggestions please.
Which university? Depends on the degree recognition by other countries
the International Islamic University Malaysia, it is a government university. i would love to do it in Singapore and if it is not possible any other place.
Unfortunately the degree is not recognised elsewhere. You just have to sit and pass the entrance exams in countries where you want to work.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I’m a HO in Queen Elizabeth KK, currently in 5th posting.
Over the past few months we have been told by some specialists that once a HO is extended in any form during HOship, we basically lose our chance in postgraduate study (Masters programme). What do Dr. Pagalavan think about that ? Any comment or clarification ?
As far as I know I have not heard anything. However, your Master’s application depends on SKT marks for 3 consecutive years.
Dear Dr. ,
I have received an offer to study medicine in Australia and also dentistry in Australia.I am equally interested in both.Due to your experience,I really hope to get some advice from someone wise like you Dr.Paga.
1)With the current situation,what is your opinion?
2)What do u think will be a wiser choice,your personal opinion based on your admirable experience?
3)What if I am planning to migrate to Australia?
4)Financially(income) ,job opportunity and opportunity to specialise which one of the two do you think is better in the Australian context?
Also the dentistry programme is only 5yrs while the medicine programme is 6yrs.For the dentistry programme the university only takes in 25 international students while the medicine programme they take in 70 international students.
I truly hope you can give me some useful insights and advice.
[…] For Future Doctors: Housemanship, Medical Officer and … – For Future Doctors: Housemanship, Medical Officer and Postgraduate Training (Part 3) It has been more than 1 month since I last wrote on this topic, the last being on …… […]
Dear Dr,
I am interested in Family Medicine practice. I have completed 3 years of service with the government; currently in working partly in the administrative as well as clinical side in surrounding Klinik Kesihatan within the Klang Valley. I would like to join a family medicine department within a public university as a teaching, clinical and research staff. How do I go about doing that?
Teaching is done by specialist only. However, you can try to get a service MO post and subsequently try to enter the Master’s program. You can contact UM, UKM or USM.
That’d be great Dr. Pagalavan. Thanks for the information.
Hi Dr Pagavalan, great post as always! I’m a final year medical student, JPA scholar and already taken USMLE STEP 1, 2 CK and CS, also secured a couple of interviews in the States. Would appreciate your advice on how do I go about this issue, if I’m fortunate to attained a place in the residency program. Would it be possible to delay my service with the government after finishing my residency and fellowship training?
As far as i know, JPA do not entertain such request anymore. You need to pay back the penalty or your guarantor have to pay.
It’s really demoralizing to work through the steps and end up in disappointment when you are so close in stepping in the residency program, because of the JPA bond. Paying back the penalty seems to be impossible as well given that it’s such a huge sum of money. But anyway thanks for the Information Dr. Pagavalan.
Well, that’s the reality. May i know what is penalty nowadays?
Based on the contract, the penalty would be the total amount paid by JPA.
Than it is better to stay back. You can try applying to JPA for an exemption but very likely will be rejected. When they use to allow , many never returned.
Dear GY,
Would you mind to give me your contact?Im planning to take USMLE and hope to get some insight from you.
Regards
Dear Doctor, I am a 3rd Year Medical Student from Monash, and am thankful for your blog. I am under JPA, and am very interested in the field of Geriatrics or Rheumatology (Although I might change my mind later). I have a few questions if u dont mind:
1) If to enter Masters of Med requires a high criteria of 85% over 3 years and very limited seats, why not people just take MRCP? (Sorry cos i have poor knowledge over the matter)
2) When is the best time to take the 3 parts of MRCP since it is not fixed like MMed.
3) Im confused about the timeline to go for subspeciality if I take MRCP . So if I take MRCP, will i generally begin my subspeciality course much LATER compared to MMed? Or will it depends on how fast i complete my MRCP.
4) What are the pathways to go for Geriatrics or Rheumatology in Malaysia? And what do you think about the future about these two courses?
Sorry for all this questions although I have not finished medical school, cos I would like to have at least an idea about my pathways when i finished. Hope to meet you in JB one day since im in Sultan Aminah for my clinical years. Would love to ask you about rheumatology in person =)
All the infos are available in this blog. Please read under For future doctors page.
Hello, Im a medical officer and wish to apply masters, i had two specialist who told me that they have previously paid back their masters scholarship after graduating from specialist or subspecialist training. Is it still possible now?
sorry, i meant paid back the tuition fee & cost therefore need not serve the government bond 5-7 years and went off immediately to the private sector after completing the gazettement period.
It is the penalty that you need to pay back. Of course it is possible but the amount might have gone up by now
Greetings Dr!
I am currently a medical student in Malaysia, and I have few questions regarding pursuing a specialist program.
1) What are the requirements to sit for the MRCP test?
2) For the local Masters programme and the MRCP, does your grades/performance/CGPA at undergraduate plays a role in your acceptance into the programme?
Thank you for your time.
1) have a valid MEdical degree
2) For Master’s : YES
Hi Dr Pagalavan Letchumanan, i am a doctor from Bangladesh.can i sit for the exam of diploma in dermatology of Royal college of physician&surgeons of Glasgow without passing PLAB?Thank you.
Should be able to
Hi sir. I am a fresh graduate, going to start housemanship in 2 week’s time. Thank you sir for writing this article. Before reading, I have absolutely no clue, none, regarding postgraduate training.
Here it is mentioned that if one were to pursue in a surgical-based speciality, there is no choice but to go for master program as there is no training centre for FRCS in Malaysia.
Currently, i am more interested in orthopedics (may change later). Wanted to know what are the possible routes for me after housemanship. If I chose not to go for master program, can I apply to train overseas (FRCS), and later decide if I wanna come back and work in Malaysia? Is this even possible? Sorry I have no clue regarding these stuff.
Thank you sir
If your degree is not recognised overseas, you will not be able to do post graduate training overseas. THus, your only option is to do the local Masters in Orthopaedic program
Thank you sir for clarifying my doubts! Looks like there is little choice (maybe even lesser when i finish housemanship that time).
Dear Pagavalan,
I totally agree that the Masters programme for postgraduation in this country is certainly a long wait.We intend to provide an alternate pathway via MRCOG/MRCP/MRCPCH.
Currently this year 2015 we have a local MRCOG part 1 & part 2 training at MMMC..Melaka
Like wise the MRCP part 1 course has been arranged.for May this year
MRCPCH PART1 COURSE WILL BEHELD AT THE END OF THIS YEAR
View
WEB SITE FOR MRCP COURSES
1.mrcp.mmmc.edu.my or mrcpmmmc.blogspot.com
2.www.facebook.com/pages/manipal alumini association
KONJE MRCOG COURSES PART2 & PART1
1.www.ogsm.org.my
2.www.facebook.com/pages/manipal alumini association
THANKS FOR ALLOWING THIS WEBSITE TO PROMOTE THIS AD.FOR
THE BENEFIT OF YOUNG DOCTORS INTENDING TO PURSUE POSTGRADUATE STUDIES
Dear Pagavalan,
Greetings Dr.I finished my MBBS and MD Internal medicine in India having Indian passport and my basic degree is recoginised in Malaysia.I wish to work in Malaysia either in government or private sector.Can you please guide me how to apply.what is the chance of getting employment?
Thank you & regards,
Kumar
Government has stopped taking foreign doctors. Private is only allowed to take foreign doctors if they can’t find a local. Your MD internal medicine is not recognised here. So, your chances are slim.
Dr Pagalavan,
I am currently a houseman in malaysia..on going 5th posting.. what arr the chances of applying to work at jabatan kesihatan negeri. I am interested in doing public health… or shud I apply to work under ipta?
Post in jabatan kesihatan is usually limited. If you want to do public health, try to go klinik kesihatans first
Sir,may i know what are the procedures on how to apply for internship/housemanship in europe?Maybe Ireland.Any idea?
You are a final-year medical student? How much spoon-feeding do you still need?
At the very least, Google the answer yourself. If you want to do a bit more work, then email or call the medical councils of the respective countries.
Please contact the respective medical council. If your degree is not recognised elsewhere than don’t bother
I’m interested in IMU’s partnership program with the U.S. universities. I’m Canadian but I currently live in the U.S. Medical schools are just too expensive and that’s why I’m thinking of going abroad. Have you heard of IMU students who successfully transferred to the U.S.’s partnership university? Also, if I do transfer, I will be awarded a U.S. MD instead of a Malaysia MBBS. Will that increase my chances of getting a residency in the U.S? The residency is my main concern. I don’t want to spend 5 years living and studying away from home only to know it wasn’t worth it in the end.
There is no guarantee that you will be transferred. It is up to the college in US to accept you or not. If they do, you will graduate from US and no issues will arise. However, if you fail to get a place then you will be stuck in Malaysia!
Hi,
I have done MBBS from Pakistan from a renowned universitiy, which is accepted by Malaysia…I have completed one year housejob here as well
Now there are chances of me getting shifted in Malaysia.
where do I stand there?
I heard from a doctor that he has worked there.
Which hospital to apply to work as an MO if I can plus the procedure…Can you please guide sir?
As far as I know, Ministry of Health has stopped recruiting foreigners for MO post. However, you can try university hospitals.
Hi Dr, thank you for such informative post. Currently im doing my HO, already working for 5months, 2nd poster. My goal is to become cardiothoracic surgeon. I heard that i need to have my MRCS part 1 prior to enter master surgical program. Then later go into subspe CTsurgeon. Is it possible if I took MRCS until part 3 but I did not took the master program? Thank you in advance
MRCS is not recognised as a specialist degree. Please read my post on Cardiothoracic training pathway
Greetings Dr, I am a medical student now having the intention to pursue a career in the field of psychiatry. What are the available pathway(s) that you recommend? Thank you.
Only Master’s. MRCPsych is recognised but you have to go to UK to sit for the exams.
hi dr pagavalan,i am currently a junior ho and i have intention to be an anaesthetist in the future. any pathway that i can take or any exam i can take to increase my chance to gt recruited in master programme? thx in advance.
Hi. Thanx for the useful article. I’ve passed my part 1 mrcog. Am I elible to practice in Singapore and continue with my 2nd part there or should I complete 2nd part before pursue career there? Thanx…
If your basic degree is not recognised in Singapore, you need to complete your entire MRCOG before being able to go to Singapore.
Dr. Pagalavan,
I’m a 2nd year medical student in one of the recognised universities in Russia. I am considering to change medical school and have already applied and offered a place in UTAR. Currently having difficulties in deciding whether or not to restart my medical degree all over again. What do you think about it?
Some of the reasons as to why I’d like to change medical school are:
1) Language being a huge obstacle. Though the official medium of instruction is English, many lecturers are not proficient, and some aren’t even able to speak English. Besides, communicating with patients in future would be a problem as I personally find it difficult to pick up the language.
2) We aren’t properly guided in practical classes, like how to perform physical examinations. We have just been given patients and told to perform physical examinations without any demonstration by the lecturers apart from some theoretical rules as to how to perform a said examination.
3) We are made to study many irrelevant subjects that I personally find them not useful in future (philosophy, hygiene (having to memorise contents of minerals in water and brightness of lamps to orientation of school furniture), economics and many others). I just find them a waste of time. Its understandable if its just a few subjects but there’s just so many of them.
4) The students in my batch are generally very lazy. They dont seem to have any interest at all in studying. This produces a very unconducive environment to be in. Yes, of course this problem can be ignored but it does make me feel out of place and frustrated being around such a group of peers.
And of course many other reasons.
What do you think about my situation? Is UTAR a better choice over russia?
What you had written is known to many of us. That’s why we see a lot of complaints about Russian graduates.
Yes, you can transfer but you will need to start all over again. UTAR is new as well.
Hi Dr, i am currently a second year houseman. I wish to do anaes in the future… is there any other pathway other than master programme in Malaysia? Thanks in advance!
FANZCA use to be available. I heard there were some rumors about discontinuation
Yes, FANZCA is no longer available for new trainees.
Interestingly, the Irish are up to another money-making scheme. They are offering their Part 1 exam to overseas doctors. Doesn’t allow you to work in ireland and doesn’t allow you entry into their training programme but you get the post nominals MCAI (Member of the College of Anaesthetists Ireland). Potentially, this could help you get into the local Masters programme, possibly even exempt you from a Masters Part 1 (like the FANZCA Part 1 did) – but the exam and MCAI post nominal is useless on its own.
Hi Dr. Pagalavan,
I am interested to work in the UK. I have a local degree and intend to sit for PLAB. What is your outlook about UK and where do I register to sit for PLAB?
Thank you sir.
Frankly, it is a waste of time and money. Even if you pass PLAB, it is very unlikely that you will get a job under the prevailing immigration laws in UK.
Dear DR Pagavalan,
Im UM medical grad and currently just starting my housemanship in one of MOH Hospital.
Based on current situation and your own prediction, Which do you think the best international medical exam: PLAB vs USMLE vs NZREX vs AMC , as for someone who wish to migrate?Which country more “lenient” to accept international medical graduate and provide better job prospect?
I plan to migrate once I finish my compulsary service with the government.Reasong being is because I am worried of my future in medical career in Malaysia as it seems no longer promising and I wish to be recognised internationally.
I have always interested to specialised in Internal Medicine since medical student days, either in Adult/Paediatric but open to change to Surgical based if the country I intend to migrate to is able to provide me a placement in postgrad training(unlikely I know as in other country it’s also competitive)
Im studying for MRCP as I plan to take the exam later,however I know the future of me to move to UK is bleak despite the passing PLAB..I guess alternative is to take USMLE.Can you shed some light/guidance to someone like me?I’d very much appreciate it.
Informative and honest blog indeed you have DR!
Regards
Firstly, if your intention is to migrate, medicine is the worst thing to do. It is the most controlled profession in the world.
UM is recognised in Singapore, why don’t you try Singapore?
No point taking PLAB as the chances to get a job in UK is almost nil. Even if you do, you will not be given a training post.
USMLE is at your own risk. Costly with no guarantee you will even get a job. Even if you do, you may not get the residency of your choice.I know many who tried many years and failed. Very few ever succeeded.
As for Australia and NZ, the chances are better but the situation is also not very good as they are struggling to place their own interns. You may get a rural posting but a training post is totally a different story.
At the end of the day, it will be equally difficult to get to any postgraduate training anywhere else in this world.
Dear Mr/Dr Pagalavan, firstly i would like to give my highest compliments to your informative blog. You seem to be really well versed and experienced about the hubbub going on in the medical world, which brings me to my dilemma,
Im a fresh graduate, just got my basic medical degree and im about to/plan to start my basic housemanship in malaysia. But all your recent logical predicaments about the medical profession situation in malaysia is giving me chills. Literally.
My family members know about this too, and are suggesting that i partake the USMLE examinations and get residency in the states(for what ever specialty we choose). they claimed that the moment we land there and start our residency we get paid much more than what we get here in msia.
my doubts are
1) is the usmle/USA option feasible in your opinion? it sounds tempting but if its a no, why not?
2) i heard singapore is a good option but i am not clear WHY and HOW it is to get there. do u recommend i get through my HO/MO phase in msia and leave for singapore?
Because of all these dark predicaments which are slowly happening, i have to make the right choices seeing as i cant burden my already troubled family. ive got to manage on my own
thank you in advance sir, you are truly a virtual altruist.
1) Anyone can sit for USMLE. However, after spending huge amount of money, you may end up going no where. Passing USMLE do not guarantee you a residency post. You are competing with the whole world, especially with people from India and middle east.So, you can try but do not have the perception that you will definitely get a post once pass USMLE.
2) Your basic degree must be recognised in Singapore in order for you to be able to get a job there. Only UM and UKM degrees are recognised at the moment.
The other option is to do MRCP/MRCS or MRCOG to be registrable in Singapore. However, you will only get a MO post despite passing those exams.
Helo dr pagalavan. Im a fresh grad right off the bat with a basic medical degree. am about to register and start my housemanship but your articles have literally sent chills down my poor soul. i initially thought of taking usmle and skipping HO. then recently i just settled with the fact of FIRST finishing the basic compulsary housemanship and then moving on to bigger things
but im not really sure of the prospects and what to expect. Which brings me to my doubts…
1) do u recommend usmle? i heard that we can get direct residency into the specialty we choose,the experience is beneficial and the pay is more feasible. the core plan that i had is finish the HO cycle and prep for the usmle/take it during that time.(or try step 1 while waiting for my HO posting)
there was this comment i read earlier in one of your posts, it seems doable.
——————————————————————-
pat dave
LTY,
I disagree with Jimmy Lee. Rather then thinking about your country you should think of what is best for you.
The USMLEs are tough and need a lot of work and indeed to be placed in popular residency programs one needs to have perfect score. But rest assured the longer you wait the harder it gets because the less you remember the ‘CRAP cycle’ and the number of ATP’s it produces. Also once you specialize you will have no interest in any other specialty, ie if you are in internal medicine you will not want to restudy all of OBGYN.
While serving your country is noble, you are better off serving your country when you are well trained in the US as a subspecialist and bring home skills not available in this country. There are too many general doctors nowadays anyway less one of you won’t really make a difference. My point being you are better off being a cardiologist who can do TAVI’s then a generalist who’s best effort is diuresis. You can then train the future generation of doctors in Malaysia if your intentions remain noble. (I doubt it will)
Or just leave the country and become american
My suggestion: If you need income –> Go for less stressful jobs ie klinik kesihatan and focus your efforts on the usmles. If you do not need income, resign and focus on your usmles. Get out ASAP.
Talk to jpa and repay your bond. they allow slow installments but it will be affordable.
on February 2, 2015 at 12:20 AMtivark
Sat for the USMLEs in 2006 – 2007, have gone through residency, fellowship and super fellowship in the US. I completely agree with EVERYTHING that was said by pat dave.
———————————————————————————————-
2) the singapore plan: whats the pathway to that phase and what are the benefits when compared to going at it all the way in msia?
overall im befuddled now. i need some guidance on this matter and i would very much appreciate your wise advice sir. i know youve cited this plenty of times on your site, about this profession isnt for money, its for passion to help people. yes, but one can dream of balancing both the normal life and this superhero life too right? and earn enough money for other personal goals(which include charity and altruism too)?
thank you in advance kind sir.
1) my advise on USMLE is as I wrote earlier. While you may hear some success stories, I have heard more sad stories than success stories. So, it is up to you if you want to try but don’t depend on it as the only solution. I would advise to HO and MO while sitting for USMLE as it does not guarantee anything.
2) As i mentioned earlier
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply my post. I apologize for double posting, I thought my first post didn;t make it into the blog’s system. oh well, at least now i have a first phase plan. thanks so much mr pagalavan sir!!!
Hi Dr Pagalavan
I wish to return to malaysia post CCST training. Is it still a requirement to undergo gazzetment before being certified as a specialist in malaysia? How to go about applying to return to malaysia to work, please advise. Thank you
Generally yes. But it is usually 6 months only. However, it is done on case by case basis.
You need to apply to MOH or University hospitals for a job and also MMC for registration. You can’t go directly to private unless more than 10 years of work overseas and exempted by MMC from compulsory service.
Hello Dr Pagalavan, thanks for the detail explanation and advices. I’ve just graduated from a local universities, planning to take MRCP/USMLE during housemanship. I have a few questions for you:
1.Which hospital has training for MRCP in Malaysia? (am planning to pick a hospital for housemanship now).
2.May I know whether MRCP is recognised in US and Canada?
Thank you in advance.
There is NO such thing as training in MRCP. Any general hospital will do. It is self training.
No, MRCP is not recognised in US or Canada.
I am currently final year of USM medical student. May I know if it is possible for me to have my housemanship at UK after my graduation?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards.
Definately NO. I am surprised you are asking this question when you are already in final year.
Dear Sir;
I am a foreign doctor.If I will finish MRCP(UK) and MMed(Internal Medicine)(Singapore);can I work at Singapore hospitals?Do I show experience service and IELTS marks?
When I will finish MRCP Part 2 written with joint programme MMed(Internal Medicine) of NUS;can I work there?
What facts need to work there?
Thanks a lot Sir:):):)
yes, you can but need to apply via SMC.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I am a jpa-sponsored medical graduate from india with rajiv gandhi mbbs degree. I have yet to start my housemanship (seems like I’m now in the oversupply tragedy lol) I am planning to specialise in psychiatry (but still open to other options) I am hoping you could give your opinion about the prospects of this specialization in Msia. And how do i pursue this?
Thank you in advance, sir.
dear sir:
thank you for the valuable help you are providing. and i wonder if i can get you professional opinion & advise..
Iam an international doctor i did MRCP part 1&2 ( PACES not yet) and wants to apply for a master of internal medicine conducted by the University of Malaya hoping for a structured thorough medical training..
with my respect and appreciation.
You need to apply directly to UM as an international candidate. Your basic degree recognition is important.
I appreciate your rapid response sir but my guestion is about the quality of medical training in malaysia , since i’ll pay and not get paid during the 4 yrs.
Master’s training is generally OK but whether it is recognised in your country is another question. You need to check on that.
Hi, dr.. may i ask what are the other option other than master programme to become an anaes in malaysia?
Thanks in advance!
Not really, but the college of anaesthetists ireland offer their Part 1 exam to Malaysian candidates, which they have rebranded as a membership exam so you end up with MCAI postnominals. Doesn’t allow you to work in Ireland or complete your anaesthesia training in Ireland (i.e. you can’t sit their Part 2 exam) but will probably exempt you from the Masters Part 1 exam.
Just a money-making exercise on the part of the Irish if you ask me, much like the foreign student intake in their medical schools.
FANZCA use to be available but I heard it can’t be done in malaysia anymore. Please check. Otherwise only Master’s.
Dear Dr,
Thanks for the information on the path to become a doctor. I have a few questions that i am willing to know form you.
Firstly, If i wanted to become a dermatologist, what should i do after completing the tasks based on your article?
Second, Is it ok to have both dermatology and immunology/allergy studies?
Please read my article on ” step by step approach in subspecialty in internal medicine”. You need to become a physician first before sub specialising in dermatology
Dear Dr,
I’d like to know your opinion on taking the USMLE upon completion of the MBBS degree. What of coming back to Malaysia from the US with my postgrad degree? Am I ‘welcomed’ to serve in private hospitals? Also, I will no longer be tied to the government compulsory service when I’m back, am I right? Please correct me if I’m wrong. I would be more than grateful if you could shed some light on this. Thank you.
CC
Firstly, doing USMLE DO NOT guarantee you a job/post in US. Most do not. Only postgraduate degree recognised by Malaysia will be accepted. You can view it here: http://www.nsr.org.my. You still need to do your 2 years compulsory service unless you had worked overseas for more than 10 years or have a speciality that is needed by the country. Registration procedures are HERE.
The criteria for exemption for compulsory service is here
First of all, thank you for the informative and prompt reply.
I do understand that acquiring residency in the US is of high competition and I’m aware of the 10 years service overseas for compulsory service exemption. I’d like to know if it is possible for me to move to the US straight assuming that I manage to secure a post, or do I still have to go through housemanship here in Malaysia first? Thank you.
CC
You can move directly assuming you are not going to come back till you complete your speciality training and acquire a recognised postgraduate degree.
If not, you will still need to do housemanship. My general advise is always not to assume you will get a post in US and skip housemanship. The waiting period is getting longer
Dear Dr,
I am a foreign student currently studying at MMMC (Melaka-Manipal Medical College), however the malaysian government does not provide housemanship for foreign students and so they adviced me to ask my home country for housemanship opportunities. Bad news is that my home country does not recognize MMMC either and therefore could not provide me any housemanship opportunities.
I did a bit of research online and found that the AMC (Australia) accepts graduates from institutions listed under IMED, and MMMC is under the list in IMED. I want to ask if it is possible to obtain housemanship experience in Australia with the AMC cert, and then progress in further specialist studies (neurologist for example).
I would like to seek guidance on MRCP as well, such as the requirements for MRCP (does it require me to have housemanship prior to taking the exam and must the institution be listed under some sort of approved list by MRCP?) and what does MRCP grant me? (Does MRCP grant me work opportunities in the UK?) Thank you for your time Dr. I really hope you can shed some information on my doubts above.
Listing in IMED does not mean anything. You need to sit and pass the AMC exams. However, it DOES NOT guarantee you a post in Australia. Please read over HERE
You can still try to sit for your home country entrance exam to be recognised
To be able to sit for MRCP, you must be in service and require a proposer.Part 1 can only be sat after 1 year of being in service.
Hello Dr.Pagavalan, thank you so much for your informative blog. I am going to start my HO training soon.
1. Is it advisable for me to do MRCOG part one now
2. What other countries recognize MRCOG apart from Singapore and Malaysia
3. What other options do I have in order to specialise in ONG.
1) You can’t do now as you need to wait 1 year after being in service.
2) UK, middle east countries, Hong Kong, Egypt and some other commonwealth countries
3) Masters
Hi sir ,,I thank you for such a helpful article and the guidance for us juniors.
Sir I am a doctor MBBS in pakistan and I have done MRCP UK complete..Can I get Training “CCT” in UK on basis of MRCP considering I have NOT followed the pathway of PLAB,FY2,CT in UK
The problem is , you will not get a job in uk based on current immigration laws.
Hi doc,
I’m currently in the process of interviewing with spa. I did my degree in Ireland as well as my internship. While waiting for this interview I took up Senior HO post in ED there. My question is, in a long term; I plan to have a career in Malaysia; therefore, is it better to further trained in Ireland and when do you suggest the best time to return or should I start early on in Malaysia and pursue specialty here, I have interest in gastric/ hep
If you can manage to get a training post in Ireland, I would suggest you stay back. Finish everything than come back
hello doctor. i just want to get your suggestions regarding some matters. before that let me introduce myself. i am dinesh kumar, graduate from JIPMER, Pondicherry india. now at the verge of finishing my housemanship. i am interested in taking up general surgery and i am in doubt as where it wll be best with 2 options in front of me, either continue in malaysia or to go singapore. so please guide me as which will be better as my undergraduation is in one of the best institute in india. please someone guide me. thank you. my email id zogun1952@gmail.com
I presume you are a Malaysian?
Hi doctor, i just want to get your suggestion regarding some matters, I am meghala chandra studying 3rd year medicine in philippines. I just want to know is that any chance for me to practice in singapore since our school is not recognize in malaysia. so please guide me so that i can do something about this matter. and yeah another one year more for me to complete my studies. i need your suggestion doctor. im so confused now
my email id : meghalachandra @yahoo.com thank you
None of Philippines degree is recognised in both Malaysia and Singapore. The only way for you to practise in both this country is by sitting and passing their entrance exams aka MQE.
Hello dear. ….
I’m Dr. Karwan Yasin, I’m post graduate year 3 emergency medicine at KBMS – EM, I’m from kurdistan region – Iraq, according KBMS TRAINING program we can attach for 3 to 12 months for the any external institute , college or hospitals, I’m happy with malaysia if you help me , I want to complete my external clinical attachment in your area if it possible.
Best regards
You can contact any of the university hospitals
Hi Dr, what is the pathway to become a dermatologist ? Thanks
Same as subspecialty for any internal medicine field. Please read my blog post on that.
greetings
i am pakistani graduate doctor mbbs, with 7 years experience as internal medicine resident medical officer, want to study post graduation internal medicie in malaysia……… or is there some thing else suitable for me in your view?
please send reply in my email.
adnan_0889@yahoo.com
You can try applying to the university hospitals for our Master’s program. At the moment, you will not get a job in MInistry of Health as even Malaysian do not have enough post.
Hi dr.. Did u find anyway in Malaysia?job as a medical officer or in Master’s programme?
I am also from Pak, in Malaysia.
Malaysia has stopped providing jobs to foreigners. However, you can try to apply to university hospitals for Master’s program
thanks sir for a reply. can you tell me how to apply university hospitals masters program?
You can visit their website. Go to University Malaya, University Kebangsaan Malaysia or University Science Malaysia
thank you sir,i saw the website of university of malaya.for internal medicine they are offering 4 years training and asking a handsome fees and ielts with 6 bands.i have already cleared ielts with 6 bands.is there any financial assistance because the fees is huge and i can not afford 70,000.will Malaysian government rules/policies allow me to work as a medical resident along with 4 years training?regards
thank you sir,
i saw the website of university of malaya.
for internal medicine they are offering 4 years training and asking a handsome fees and ielts with 6 bands.
i have already cleared ielts with 6 bands.
is there any financial assistance because the fees is huge and i can not afford 70,000.
will Malaysian government rules/policies allow me to work as a medical resident along with 4 years training?
regards
All Master’s student will be working full time as resident. You need to contact the university to get further info whether you will be paid.
Dr Adnan…did you find any way in Malaysia?
I am also from Pak.
Hello i am currently studying in International Medical school Bukit Jalil and i have a decision to go towards radiology oncologists. Problem is i am a foreigner but my mom is Malaysian so can i get a housemanship in Malaysia?
As long as you are not a Malaysian citizen , you will not get housemanship .Even PR are not getting it,
Is MRCOG recognised in US….Am citizen of INDIA but interested to work in US is it possible…..
No
If I take USMLE and undergo residency training (in internal medicine) for 3 years in the United States. After finishing residency, I undergo a cardiology fellowship training programme and become a Board certified cardiologist. Is it possible for me to return to Malaysia or Singapore to practise as a cardiologist?
Hi, Doctor. If I take USMLE and undergo residency training (Internal Medicine) in the United States. After that, I undergo the Cardiologist fellowship training programme and become a Board Certified Cardiologist. Is it possible for me to return to Malaysia or Singapore to practise as a Cardiologist?
Firstly, passing USMLE does not guarantee a residency post in US. Many don’t get any post. If at all everything goes as youwant it, you may get a job in Singapore but as for malaysia it depends whether you can get an employment . As a foreigner, unlikely you will get a job in civil service. Private can only employ foreigners if can’t get a local. How come you are not a PR yet?
Doctor, I am a Malaysian. I wish to undergo training in the United States. If everything goes well and I come back to Malaysia as a Board Certified Cardiologist, is it likely that I can practise in Malaysia as a Cardiologist, or do I have to go through 2 years of Housemanship and 2 years of MO?
You need undergo 2 years compulsory service with the government if you return before 10 years of service.
Singapore is saturated with consultant cardiologists, up to date info as of last year from national health care group. A guy trained from Massachusetts General hospital, Boston(Harward grad) , board certified cardiologist was turned down his applications.due to no job vacancy
Future is bad, dear doctors 🙂
Hi Dr. Pagalavan
I have done MBBS from Pakistan and did my housejob there Now I am currently in Malaysia but as I couldnt find any place to work and be in practice, now I am going to prepare for further exam and I need your assistance.
1) what is the pathway for MRCP (uk) do we have here in Malaysia? As for part-2, we need 2 years training in hospital.
2) What is the importance of MRCP (uk) overall in the world? how is it treated? as a specialist?
3) If a person wants to become paediatrician, then what should be the pathway?
4) does MRCP (UK) helps with becoming Peadiatrician? and also plz tell about becoming Paediatric Neurologist..what should be the pathway.
Plz help
1) all answers are here in this blog. Please read. Firstly, you need to get a job
2) It is not a specialist exit exam but an entry exam
3) Please read this blog.
First of all Malaysia Ministry of Health had stopped providing jobs for foreigners. So unlikely you will get a job in first place.
I have read the blog but please answer it so that I will not have any doubt about ut. Please. I will be very thankful to you On Jan 21, 2016 17:22, “Pagalavans Avatar” wrote:
> Pagalavan Letchumanan commented: “1) all answers are here in this blog. > Please read. Firstly, you need to get a job 2) It is not a specialist exit > exam but an entry exam 3) Please read this blog. First of all Malaysia > Ministry of Health had stopped providing jobs for foreigners. So unl” >
Hello doctor,
I must say this blog seems to be the only place to provide truthful and important facts that are a must-know in order to be able to pursue medicine. Way better than the fabricated false information of official websites anyway.
I am about to finish my Alevels from here in malaysia, and i am an international student who would very much like to work overseas.
I have read some of your posts, however not all, and would be grateful if you could clear some of my doubts and confusions that i still have.
1) I am confused if IMU and Monash are good options to get a recognisable degree. Seems like a good idea, but is it better to study half here and half overseas than doing your entire degree overseas itself? What are the disadvantages in doing so? Naturally doing your entire degree overseas would be much more expensive, but is there an advantage of being a completely Australian-trained medical graduate compared to studying half here and half in australia?
2) We found that MMC does not allow international students to do their housemanship here and asks them to go back to their own country to do it. Is this a policy followed in all countries? Is there any way i could avoid having to go back to my own country to do my housemanship? If i have to go back to do it anyway, whats the point of spending so much and studying in a foreign land? (Im from India)
3) We also got information that although Ireland has the best quality of medicine being taught, most graduates migrate since working conditions are not considered good. And apparently number of job positions are less too. Are both these facts true? Is it still better than studying in australia? Is the irish degree recognised everywhere such as usa canada etc? Would i still have to go back to india to do my housemanship despite having studied in countries such as Australia/canada/ireland/usa?
These questions have been haunting me constantly and i am in need of a desperate clear answer that would encourage me to go ahead as medicine seems to be the only profession i want to land upon. However, everywhere we go everyone seems to be giving different answers. Which is why i finally decided to come and ask an authentic and reliable source which is you. Your reply would be very much appreciated doctor! Thank you.
1) Monash Malaysia do not offer twinning program. IMU does , with some universities in UK/US/Australia. Obviously, graduating from a foreign university gives you a better opportunity in getting a job there.
2) Every country have their own policy. Malaysia do not provide housemanship for foreigners. You must understand that getting a job depends on vacancy in each country and nothing to do with being able to be registered as a doctor. No country can guarantee you a job. UK has also stopped providing internship for Non EU, NOn UK citizens. Same goes to Ireland. Australia at the moment only have enough post to provide internship to their own graduates.
3) Yes, Ireland situation is a fact which I had written enough in this blog. For US and Canada, everyone need to sit for USMLE exams. No guarantee of a job after passing
All these answers are well written in this blog.
Hello Dr, very direct and informative blog you have got here. Thank you for being so attentive to the matters faced by the medical society, both old and new.
I have a question regarding Housemanship and USMLE/US residency.
Currently I am in the waiting list for my housemanship, I am preparing for my USMLE now and I want to try out step 1 before my HO begins.
My doubt is, AFTER i complete my 2 yr HO stint, achieve full registration + APC,
1) Is it possible to LEAVE/SKIP MO-ship and dedicate time to prepare for STEP2 usmle while working locum (to collect funds for the exams)? i mean, i do have the apc, enabling me to work locum.
2) lets say i did my residency for specialization in US till i make it(or fail), and then i RETURN back to malaysia, will my apc+full registration still be valid/not abolished? or must i repeat housemanship again?
thank you 🙂
1) You can’t as it is a government service. Either you resign completely or take no pay leave. However no pay leave has limit : 1 month for every year of service!So you have only 2 months.
2) Firstly, be informed that passing USMLE do not guarantee you a post in US. THus, it is advisable not to resign as you will loose your seniority in service and promotion. If you are board certified in US, you can apply for specilaist registration in Malaysia. You still need to complete the remaining compulsory service but don’t need to do housemanship.
Hi Dr. Pagavalan, sorry for replying to this after so long. I wanted to hear more info regarding what you mentioned above.
My gf is in her housemanship in Malaysia and I’m about to start my residency here in the US. We both graduated from a school that isn’t on the second schedule list from MMC, but she took her EPR and is currently starting her third posting. We were considering if after her housemanship for her to move to the US for a bit and then when I’m done with my US residency to possibly move back. However, I have a few questions for you:
1) If she completes 2 years of housemanship, takes a break for a few years and comes back, does she have to restart her housemanship? Is she able to work as an MO straight? How about if she does a US residency, would she be able to work as a specialist?
2) I am going to be completing my IM residency here in the states and would like to work in Malaysia afterwards, but my school isn’t listed in the second schedule. Would I have to take the EPR and do housemanship/MOship before working as a specialist? Or would I just have to take the exam in order to receive provisional registration?
Please let me know if you have any information on that.
1) Once she gets her Full Registration after completing Housemanship, she do not need to do housemanship again. She can work as a MO if she gets a job. The problem I foresee is the fact that you may not get a job. At the moment even some who are trying to return from UK are not receiving favourable response for MOH job application. If she completes residency in US (she must sit and pass USMLE and get a post) and board certified, she can apply to MMC/NSR to be recognised as specialist.
2)This is the tricky part. As far as Medical Act is concerned, in order for you to work in Malaysia, your basic degree must be recognised in 2nd schedule. It does not matter whether your post grad is recognised. Whether this will change in the future I got no idea. Again, getting a job is totally a different ballgame. MMC would not even process your application if you do not have a job offer.
Dr.Pagalavan, what I have to do to be an intern in America ?
Sit for USMLE. However passing the exam do not guarantee a job
hi sir,
i have completed mbbs in india and have done one year internship in india. now im waiting HO posting in GH. most probably i will the posting in june. soo i have decided to sit for mrcp part 1. am i eligible to sit for mrcp part 1? i have done one year of internship in india. i have solid 4 months to study for mrcp since posting will in june only. Planning to give part 1 in sep. Pls guide me sir.
As far as I know, you must have completed 1 year post graduation service. Should be eligible.
ok sir. Does my one year internship in india counted as post graduation service?
probably
Dear doctor,
i have of 6 years of experience in paediatrics.i want to work in singapore but my degree is not recognised in singapore.is it possible to do mrcpch in singapore?so that i will be able to find job in singapore easily.
Kindly let me if the details of doing postgraduate studies in singapore.
You need to pass your MRCPCH before you can applyfor a job in singapore
Thanks for the very insightful message. I must say there is going to be a major catastrophe in the medical profession world-wide affecting mostly third world countries. I couldn’t agree more with your statement; “Jobless doctors in the future will be a reality!”
Initially the path seemed clear, but there are “technical” barriers arising each day. Careful planning and career guidance is very essential!
Greetings from Uganda
Dear Dr,
Could u comment something about MRCEM a.k.a MCEM UK membership exam. Would the membership holder be treated same as MRCP etc. In Malaysia. From my understanding Singapore has withdrawn from this last year for some reason.
Would you consider giving a talk on medical career pathway if invited?
Thanks
As far as I know, MRCEM is not recognised as a specialist degree in Malaysia. You can visit the NSR website http://www.nsr.org.my.
I do give talks on career pathway , usually to SPM leavers. Mainly in JB area.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
After comparing the specialty courses available, is it right to say that the MRCP program is a faster route to becoming a specialist as compared to the local Master’s program?
yes, but MOH also need 4 years training before being gazetted.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
actually im a bit confused about the process after finishing my MO.
1. I could choose to be a specialist or a surgeon. If i were to choose to be a surgeon, my path is to continue my studies in doing masters by scoring my SKT for at least 85%. What if i want to be a specialist, and im not going for the MRCP. whats my career path from there?
2. Im a JPA student, I heard that i could serve the government half of it and i could pay the remaining half that way im not tied to the JPA. Is it wise of me to do so, so that i could continue my studies privately doing overseas in masters / specialist? because i heard that if you still tied to the government, i cannot continue my studies overseas. because i know that the waiting list in Malaysia is long
1) None except FRACGP/FRCR depending on what specialist you want to become
2) Firstly, if your degree is not recognised overseas, what specialist training are you talking about?
1.I just read about FRACGP/ FRCR. FRACGP is a specialist in family medicine whereas FRCR is specialist in Onco and Radiologist. How is it that im going to apply specialist besides those subject? like General med, emergency,etc. (the other 23 specialist program listed by NSR)
2. my degree states that ”Bachelor degree in medicine and Surgery”. How would i know which university accept it beside malaysia? As for the what specialist training,im not really sure which to choose at the moment. But i might be going to go for surgery which is by applying my masters. I just want to know the flow of education for medicine at the moment.
3. Also when i got my masters, what to i do after that? SInce masters program in Malaysia is a lot depending on each uni offering its topic
Im very confuse at the moment
That’s why you should spend some time reading this blog from A-Z under For Future Doctors page!! Looks like you did medicine without even knowing what it’s all about
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am interested in becoming a pediatrician. i have a few question about it. First, how long will I be able to complete mrcpch assuming that i pass all 3 part of exam without fail.
How many years after graduating from mbbs will i be eligible to apply for pediatric residency training program(including housemanship and MO)?
How many years will it take for me to obtain a pediatrician license postgraduate?
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am interested in becoming a pediatrician. I have a few questions about it. First, how long will I be able to complete FRCPCH assuming i pass all 3 parts of the exam without fail.
How many years after graduating from mbbs will I be eligible to apply for pediatric residency training program(including housemanship and MO)?
How many years will it take postgraduate to obtain a pediatrician license?
hi dr,im a medical officer currently working in emergency department in a district hospital.I plan to take MRCEM part a this year. is this paper recognized by MMC? how about FRCEM,is it recognized by MMC and how long it will take before gazzett to be emergency physician? im in dilemma whether to choose master programme or MRCEM exam
Dear Doctor,
I am curious, does the recognition of your degree affect your opportunities for postgraduate opportunities? (including research postgraduate)
For example, IMU local programme is only recognised in Malaysia for housemanship. NUMed has proclaimed to have recognition from both MMC and GMC.
Do these two have much of a difference if we look in terms of future postgraduate opportunities?
Thank you.
in order for you to do clinical postgraduate education in medicine (which is full time working and part time studying), you must first be eligible to get a job in the country you intend to do. To do this, your degree must be recognised. However, you may do part of your training under our government sponsorship on attachment basis ( not an employment). This is done for subspeciality training. As for research, it depends on what you mean by that.
You can read these informations in my book which I just launched. Please see my latest post
Hi Dr, after going through a few years of medical school and being naive about the circumstances at the given moment and the near future, what kind of advice can you give such as the preparations needed to be made by students in a MBBS course that is not recognised internationally, thank you.
Read my book and you will know the answer. Basically nothing much unless you want to sit for USMLE etc
Dear Doctor Paga,
Thank you very much for writting this interesting blog. It has more information than any of the MOH resources out there regarding the health system in Malaysia. I graduated from a New Zealand university and am currently a second year HO at a hospital ( Did not do my internship in NZ as I am bonded). However, my partner is a Malaysian graduate from UM. I was wondering if you could please shed some light to some of my doubts.
1) If my partner and I complete the FRACGP exam, will she be able to work in Australia eventhough her undergraduate degree is not recognised there?
2) Will I be able to practice general practice in australia right away although I did not do my internship in NZ/Australia if I manage to secure a job offer?
Thank you very much for your reply Dr Paga.
Regards,
Andrew
Yes to both questions.
Dear Dr,
Also wondering if FRACGP is competitive or is it an open entrance programme?
Thank you
Passing rate about 20 ppercent.
Hello Sir,
I would like to get some information for housemanship in Malaysia:
My sister had completed her MBBS from Davao medical uniersity Philipines and now she is looking for place to do her housemanship. We couldnt find the correct place. Could please direct us. Thank you.
RPM
This university is not recognnised in Malaysia. She need to sit and pass the MQE examination by MMC.
Thank You Dr. By the way any idea if she could do in Singapore. And lets say she wants to do the MQE examination what are the correct procedures and ow long she will need to wait for the results and proceed for her housemanship. Please advise.
I think you should spend some time reading this blog or buy my books to know how medicine works. Singapore as far as i know do not recognise this degree. You can check SMC website. As for MQE , please visit MMC website.
OKay DR. I will go through the blog if i can get any information. I’m looking at MQE now. Thank You so much.
Hi Dr, I’m a final year mbbs student from melaka manipal medical college. I’m a foreigner (indian passport holder) but I’m staying in malaysia for more than 10 years, I did my spm here, my father is blue ic holder. Is there any chances i can do my housemanship here?? If can’t , what are the options available for me? Hope to hear from you soon . Thank you sir
the latest circular issued in Feb 2016, no more contract post will be given to foreigners. Technically, you are considered as a foreigner. So, the option is to sit for another ccountry’s entrance exam and try your luck.
Sir, is it possible for a student from Biomedical Sc/Medical Sc to pursue doctor after they have finish the degree?
Yes, you can
TK,
Dear sir,
i am graduated from one the medical university in Afghanistan with holding MD degree (it needs 7 years studying) then i started the neurosurgery residency training program in kabul, Afghanistan and now this is the fifth year of my training, the question is that i want to find a subspecialitiy training in neurosurgery, here in Afghanistan still dont have such kind of subspeciality so i want to start it out side Afghanistan so I dont know where and how i should apply for such training?
i am really confuse for this and need your information
,
thanks in advance
Dear Dr. Pagalavan ……
thank you so much for your efforts to provide us with these information …..
I am considering MRCP as a specialty pathway , but i worry about the training period to be gazetted as a specialist , do training center in Malaysia accept international student . I am from Yemen.
thanks in advance sir …..
Nope, Malaysia do not provide jobs to foreigners anymore. However , some university hospitals might. But you need to try applying for a job directly to the hospital . Nd your basic degree must be recognised by MMC.
Keep posting on this subject and it will benefit all new graduates.
Dr Pagalavan,
First of all, thank you very much for your time and effort in sharing the information. The information has been very helpful.
I am a final year medical student in the UK (imu-twinning, self-sponsored). Despite the flaws in the system and some voices of opposition, I still wish to serve and likely to do my specialty training (prospectively, anaeasthetics) in Malaysia. I am fully aware of the pay difference and future training opportunities in both countries plus Singapore. However, I know why I choose to do medicine in the first place so I am not looking forward to staying in these countries.
I have done the reading on both application of provisional registration and application of full registration for medical graduates undergoing HO training overseas. So, I have already got some insight on those. It seems to be relatively easier to apply for job as an HO than a MO.
The dilemma I am having now is to whether start the HO training in Malaysia or to get the GMC registration (for possible fellowship training in the future) before heading back. I recognise the challenges I will be facing back home due to various disparities of culture and practices. My thought is to get assimilated into the practice and system as soon as possible. May I know what is your thought regarding this?
Thanks a lot again.
I would suggest to complete HO in UK before returning home.It will give you better options in the future. As a student, you are still naive when it comes to reality of life. Trust me, it is always better to have options.
Hi Dr Pagalavan. It is always a pleasure to read your blog. I have recently completed my MRCP (UK) and am awaiting for my placement for gazzettement. Meanwhile I have seen an advertisement for Chevening scholarship in the UK on the MOH webpage. I see there are some interesting courses like clinical dermatology and neurology being offered. I wonder if there is any benefit of taking a hiatus and attending such a course and would it be helpful towards a sub specialist career in Malaysia. Thanks
Those are usually diploma equivalent. While it is good to attend such courses depending on your interest, whether it will give any additional benefit in your subspeciality training is a difficult question to answer. It depends on where is your interest.
Hi Dr. I’m from Penang, a medical graduate from India.
I want to know, if the Masters programs from India valid?
As in let’s say, I have completed the Masters in India, do I still have to do the compulsory horsemanship in Malaysia for 2 years?
What would be the procedure ..or whom shall I refer to for a informative approach..?
Please Dr. Kindly help me.
Masters from India is NOT recognised in Malaysia. Thus, you still need to do housemanship unless you have more than 5 years working experiance.
my son form 5 .,want to study mbbs pmc,i heard that if we do his internship here, after that his ireland degree is recognised by singapore and australian medical council
NOPE. Only if you do housemanship in Ireland.
ok tq bcos just now i called pmc they said intership malaysia recognised by ireland
Yes recognised by ireland but not singapore or Australia
what is the diffrent in chances of getting housemanship btw imu and pmc
No difference !
so what is the difference in term of doing housemanship in uk/sg
I think you need to buy my books and read! you got no clue of what medicine is all about.
imu said housemanship need at own expenses
Housemanship is NOT under university! It is a JOB.
Dr.Pagal, first of all i’d like to thank you for being an inspiration and shedding the light on the subject of “becoming a Doctor in Malaysia’ ,warning students not to chase the career for the sake of the name but only for the passion.
I’m a medical student aspiring to become an internationally recognised urologist. Currently doing my M.D in Universitas Padjadjaran,Bandung which is recognised by WHO and listed in WDOMS. The M.D program here is recognised by our ministry and medical council, but i’m sure that the Subspecialty programs and Residency programs here are not recognised. I’d like to also highlight the fact that the specialisation programs here are much different and faster.For example,there are no MRCS or FRCS programs given locally. After graduating from a local medical school in Indonesia you sit for a national competency examination to get your license to practice,after which you have to complete a mandatory internship program for one year before you can work in private healthcare institutions. The alternative is that right after the internship, you can apply for residency programs that put you through ‘work without salary’.For example, after an Indonesian is done with his internship he can sit for an examination that will allow him to be accepted into the urology residency program, which is a 6 year program ,2 years in General Surgery training and 4 years in Urology training, after which he will sit for a board examination that will qualify him to practice as a nationally recognised urologist. Residents here perform 90% of medical procedures on their own under supervision of the Consultants. Even as an M.D student, I am being overworked as compared to other medical students from Malaysia. For example, We have two graduation ceremonies, after completing our 3.5 year theoretical studies and publishing a thesis, we graduate here with a degree known as Sarjana Kedokteran or S.Ked, after this we are recognised as Dokter Muda and are enrolled into another program known as PSPD which requires us to work in referral hospitals or tertiary healthcare institutes.The reason why i mentioned “work” is because during this 2-year period we have 17 postings, where we have 12-hour nightshifts on average of about 5 days a month,we are even required to work saturdays and sundays (counted as 12-hour shifts), perform procedures, practice, and prescribe within our competency. After completion of all 17 postings, we will then sit for the National Competency Exam of Indonesia (UKDI) and receive the M.D certification. Which brings me to my questions.
Is there a social stigma that revolves around Malaysian medical graduates from countries such as Indonesia, Philippines and Bangladesh within the medical community of our country? How are the housemanship officers treated? Is there a preference based system? Are local graduates put first?
Next, how has the medical education in Malaysia evolved? Do the local students undergo stress-tests such as the students in Indonesia? If they don’t do you think it’s better if they do? Do you think the medical school model of Indonesia is better than the conventional system in Malaysia?
I would also like to know if there are any other pathways to sub-specialise other than the traditional MRCS-FRCS, USMLE , or Local Masters? I’ll graduate with my M.D at the age of 24 and i’d like to pursue a career in urology. How many years does it take in Malaysia for a medical graduate to become a urologist
(A rough estimate from Housemanship to becoming a urologist)? How is the field developing in Malaysia and what are the prospects? Is Medical R&D a big thing in Malaysia?
Another interesting question that i’d like to put forward is about skipping the housemanship procedure. Part 1 and 2 of the USMLE exam can be taken even before graduating with an M.D or MBBS and after graduating I can take part 3 and apply for residency without doing my housemanship. If I can get a residency posting in the U.S and complete the posting and also pass the American board examination will I be directly recognised as a specialist in Malaysia? Or will I have to go through the housemanship program as a fresh medical graduate eventhough I will be overqualified as my competency will be as a specialist post-graduate from America?
The reason I asked the particular question above is because I understand that many don’t come back to Malaysia after doing their specialist programs overseas, due to the enticing financial prospects in America,Canada and Australia. But i’d like to live, work and serve as a doctor in Malaysia even if the salary is not as good and the political state is in chaos.
I’d like to thank you again, Dr.Pagal for being outstandingly informative and for being an example to all Malaysian medical students passionate about the field.
Deepest respect and much regards,
Aru
Each country have their own healthcare system which the medical school need to train you for. Thus, it varies from country to country. Most Indonesian graduates are OK and I do know their medical school system usually makes you an intern during last 2 years of their curicullum. However, medicine has evolved to the extend that you theoretical knowledge must be good. Just having a practical knowledge without any proper supervision and theory is going to be obsolete as the medicolegal cases rises. In Indonesia, hardly you hear of any medical suits. That is the reason why you can do all those procedures while you are still considered a medical student. Try doing that over here and the hospital will have to appoint a team of legal experts to protect them from suit!So, as the country developes, even indonesian system has to change to meet the demand of patients and medico-legal implications.
As for urologist, you need to complete Master’s in surgery before doing urologist as a subspecialiality which is another 4 years training. So, after graduating, it will take roughly 14 years assuming you get into the programs on 1st try.
as for US, american board certification can be considered for specialist recognition BUT need to undergo assessment by National Specilaist Register.Most of the time, our Urology board will advise you to work under supervision for a certain period of time before being able to recognise as a Urologist.
Dear sir, iam a degree in med in india. I wanna ask your opinion about working in german is it the training there are are good as UK ? ( as non european graduate i have to undergo the medical council there) And is it the post graduate program there recognize by malaysia ?
Post graduate degrees from germany is not recognised in Malaysia
Is it possible for Indonesian doctor to do specialty training in malaysia?
Yes, you can apply for Malaysian local university Master’s program. Seats are limited for international students
Hi Dr, i have just graduated from my pre U and deciding to apply to Taylor’s Uni to study MBBS. Monash and IMU isnt an option since i am on a tight budget. I would like to ask for your opinion regarding the MBBS offered at Taylor’s. Thank you!
They have just produced 2 batches, difficult to comment
Hi doctor , am Sudanese internal medicine specialist with MRCP(UK)and MD , interesting to do subspecilaties in one of internal medicine branch in Malaysia , can you tell me about possibility and options ?
Hi Dr. As now it is so risky to study medicine in msia and the worst thing waiting for the housemanship. Thus, i decided to further studies in MD in Russia, most probably at Nizhny Novgorod State Medical Academy and applying for permanent resident. It could help to skip housemanship programme in Msia and by then doing in Russia itself . Does this help actually ?
Doing housemanship in russia do not allow you to skip housemanship in malaysia.
It means i still have to undergo housemanship even though I completed till specialization when I’m coming back to Msia ?
No Russian specialisation is recognised in Malaysia
Not doing specialization in Russia. I mean continue in another Europe country, maybe Germany and coming back to msia
same, no germany specialisation recognised in Malaysia.
Dear sir!
I am a third year resident in ophthalmology in Pakistan. My husband got admission in Singapore for masters so I wanted to shift as well. Unfortunately, FCPS is not recognized by singapore. I m taking MRCS part1 to join residency but they wanted complete MRCS. So I was searching if I can find residency in Malaysia.is it possible to switch? And if yes what else do I need?
Malaysia do not provide jobs to foreigners anymore.
Good evening Dr Pagalavan, I am a UM MBBS graduate, about to go through housemanship. I realised in your post that you did not mention anything about Psychiatry. Since that is the field I intent to pursue, I have a few questions, if you dont mind.
1) Is the MCRPsych exam recognised in Malaysia?
2) Is it necessary for me to apply to a hospital with a psychiatry department for housemanship in order to pursue it as my specialisation
3) Does sitting for MCRPsych (even if it’s just part 1) give you an advantage when applying for a masters programme in Malaysia?
4) Are there any other external papers that one can sit for in the field of Psychiatry to become a specialist? – (I read that being a member/ fellow of Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrist is also accepted but I would like confirmation from you)
Thank you for your time Dr.
1) yes but if I am not mistaken, you need to go to UK to sit for the exam.After passing, you need to undergo 18 months gazettement process.
2) NO, you can join later but it all depends where you will be posted after housemanship
3) possible but not guaranteed
4) You can’t simply sit for Australian fellowship exams. It is a structured program(usually 4 years) which can only be done in Australia/NZ. In Malaysia, Master’s is the only other option.
Frankly, a lot of things can change after you do your housemanship. You may even change your field of interest.
Thank you very much for your advice Dr. Will go through housemanship and see where the boat takes me. Have a good day sir.
Hello Dr. Pagalavan. I’m so glad that I found your blog as I have so many questions regarding medical career. I’m a 4th year medical student and I’ve been thinking of what to do next. I would like to ask you for some insight;
1) Is it doable to do my housemanship outside of Malaysia? If so, how can I do that?
2) If I would like to do my housemanship in the UK, do I have to take PLAB and MRCP? What about other than UK, is there any other exams that I have to take?
3) If I manage to do my housemanship outside of Malaysia and decide to come back, do I have to start all over again?
Thank you so much.
I think you should spend more time reading this blog or simply buy my books. All have been answered before
1) Is your degree recognised elsewhere in the first place?
2) Every country have their own exam BUT passing does not guarantee you a internship post. In UK, foreigners are not provided internship unless you graduate from a UK university.
3) Depends
Hi Dr Pagavalan…
I would appreciate if you can give som advice and opinions about my dilemma..
I graduated in 2011 from an Irish University an had been working in Ireland since graduation until August 2016. I passed my MRCP UK in June 2016 and came back to Malaysia in August 2016. I did 2 years BST programme in internal medicine and worked as a medical oncology registrar in Ireland for 14months . . I also completed postgraduate diploma in medical education also in Ireland.
Now that I am back in Malaysia, I am not sue pursuing my interest in medical oncology as the oncology practice in Malaysia is so different i.e we call it clinical oncology where u do both radiotherapy and chemo stuffs (but these are 2 separate fields in Ireland).
At the same time, I enjoyed teaching and medical education and is thinking of working in that field in Malaysia and I can do anothr year of medical education to get the Master qualification from the same uni in Ireland.
Everyone advised to complete my gazettement 1st before doing master an at the moment I am working as a medical lecturer in UNISZA (just a contract job) and most likely I have to do gazettement in HSNZ which I am not sure whether this is the best for me.
When I came home, I am not sure about the system in Malaysia but I decided to go home because of personal reason.
I am sad that I have to leave medical oncology but I don’t think I want to get into the master progrm in Malaysia…
If u can give some of your thougt about my dilemma, I’d be grateful.
Thanks in advance
Since you have MRCP, it is better to get gazetted as a specialist first. As far as I know, it can only be done under KKM. So, you need to find out how UNISZA is going to allow you to do that as you need to work full time in KKM hospital for 18 months atleast.
Hi dr…thank you for all the info you have been giving..im a medical officer from paediatric and im interested in becoming a trainee lecturer..would like to ask ,will the local university accept mrcpch to join the lecturing programme without doing their masters programme?
yes , you can
hi Doctor,
1) can you tell me about clinical attachment? which hospital allows easiest way to do clinical attachment to foreign fresh doctors?
2) Does MRCP uk gets you any way in UK?
thanks
1) you need to apply to individual hospitals. There is no fixed rules. It is up to each hospital to decide. I would suggest smaller district hospitals with specialist.
2) It is an entry exam to speciality training in UK. The current immigration laws may not be favourable. Getting a job will be a problem.
Hi there, I’m currently in boarding school in the UK, and considering Medicine for university. I was just wondering, when I graduate from medical school, will I ever need to come back to Malaysia for any commitment such as housemanship or having to work in government hospitals in Malaysia? Preferably, I would like to proceed to work as part of the NHS and I won’t be relying on government funding for any of my education.
Thank you.
P.S. Sorry for the odd question! I am aware of how clueless I sound however there’s nothing I can find online about any commitments.
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If you are going to work in UK, then why do you want to come here??
Hi there, I’m currently holding Ms Ortho and would like to ask Malaysia master in surgery is recognised by which country? or which country can i work as an orthopaedics specialist?
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If I am not mistaken, some middle east countries do recognise our Master’s
Dear pagalavan sir,
I have completed my MBBS in India and want to do postgraduate/ masters ( in clinical ) in Malaysia…I want to know what is this masters programme in clinicals in malaysia..is it equivalent to MD/MS degrees or specialities like in India…???? wat actually mean by masters in clinical in Malaysia..??.I want to apply in UKM..is this university recognised globally ??
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Hi! I’m currently in my 2nd year of medical school in Ireland and I’ll be returning to Singapore to work after graduation. I’ve been thinking of taking the USMLE Step 1 as a way to “boost my CV”. I’ve been pretty afraid of not being able to get a housemanship here and subsequently getting to do a specialty of my choice since it is super competitive in Singapore. Could you provide some advice with regards to how I should increase my opportunities when I return to Singapore for work next time? Also, do you think taking the USMLE will be worth it? Any advice would be greatly appreciated 🙂 Thank you so much!
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as far as I am concerned, taking USMLE is only worthwhile if you are planning to work in US or some middle east countries. NO matter where you go, specialist training is competitive.
If Interested to work as a Driver,House Help,Caregiver in United States Florida. Kindly send your RESUME via email with good Salary.(roberthandersonhall500(at)gmail.com)
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Hello, Dr. Pagalavan! I am a medical student from IMU. I am now concerned about my future career as I am currently taking the local programme instead of partner medical school (PMS) programme.
I would like to ask with this MBBS degree, can I take up master of medicine that is available in Australia or UK? And after that do I stand a chance in working at these countries?
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I am not sure what you mean by master of medicine in UK or Australia. There is no such thing as far as clinical speciality is concerned. Obviously you can’t work in these countries with your MBBS.
Sorry for the confusion, what I meant was with my IMU MBBS degree specialize in UK and Australia?
With MRCP, can I work at other countries?
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Nope. MRCP allows you to work in Singapore and UK. But to get a job is UK is almost impossible at the moment.
hi …good day sir
i am currently in private GP practice.
beside the program offered by AFMP , may i know can we go for MRCGP ?
your help is much appreciated.
thanks
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MRCGP(international) is not recognised in Malaysia but it is accepted in Australian specialist pathway program (category 3) and you are considered to be at a level equivalent to an Australian basic trainee in general practice and as such require further training/supervised practice and assessment to be regarded as fully comparable to fracgp. Refer http://www.racgp.org.au/becomingagp/imgaus/specialist-pathway/
MRCGP (UK) is recognised by Malaysian NSR, but the training including exam is in UK. It’s like mmed family medicine here where you have to rotate in various departments in tertiary centre but i do not know in detail.
The only parallel pathway for specialty in general practice/family medicine recognised in Malaysia is MAFP/FRACGP (conjoint exam AFPM and RACGP). Refer https://www.nsr.org.my/files/C_FamilyMedicine_Flowchart.pdf
The cost is about 50k to 60k and i heard only 30% passed in 1st attempt. The passing score is around 66%, but depends on standard setting and difficulty of exam..but it will be around that. It is tough ( the cost, time and need great effort as we have to study while working, no study leave to read, they have reasons for that). And you have to pay customs 6% GST for the annual tuiton fee as atfm does not have MQA yet and few other requirements for customs to exempt the gst for education (i heard, but i do not know in detail). For example the cost of ATFM (advanced training in family medicine is 12k… u pay 12k to AFPM, and rm720 to royal malaysian customs departments (total rm 12,720/year not including afpm and racgp membership fees, and exam fees..part 1 exam about 3k, part 2 about 5k). We have to pass eligibility exam before we can proceed to read part 1 and then part 2.. it takes 1 year to repeat the paper, unlike master in family medicine, 6 months to repeat the paper. Another thing, there is no direct, close supervision and apprenticeship concept like in Australia as our primary care network/setting is different. There will be clinical and research mentors but the logistic and busy schedules are among the obstacles. https://www.afpm.org.my/programmeatfm
Hope this is helpful.
Maybe Dr Pagalavan may add some more info or correct me if any info given is inaccurate.
I just have a question back in my mind, why master in family medicine in our country not recognised internationally like master in family medicine Singapore, south africa and few other countries? I think our master program in this field is good and well structured too and we have experienced teachers in this field in our public uni.
I think the postgraduate program is relevant as general practice is a unique specialty by its own. In UK and Australia and few other countries, they cannot practice independently in GP/ primary care without postgrad qualification and they have valid reasons for that. It’s like all of their GP has fms qualification.
My personal opinion, parallel pathway is a good effort but the cost and close mentoring and supervision need some improvement. GST exemption on tuition fees, or income tax reduction equal to education cost etc..)
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Can but need to be done in UK
I am an MRCGP [INT] holder for few years now, and I can confirm that it is NOT recognized in Malaysia. I have attempted to get myself registered with NSR, and after several exchange of communication I decided to just let it go. One of the reason stated was lack of accredited training programme for MRCGP [INT], as compared to mmed or MAFP/FRACGP. So does it mean that for those who have completed the 4-year-course offered by AFPM, failed FRACGP, but passed MRCGP [INT] are eligible for registration? Sadly no.
Thus till today, the only alternate pathway is still MAFP/FRACGP, which is VERY VERY costly. It is a 4-year-programme, 12k each, and another 4k and 4k part 1 and part 2 exam respectively. That is excluding the mandatory membership of RACGP which is a prerequisite for the exam, will cost another approximate 1.6k depending on the exchange rate.
And candidates are given 3 attempts for each exam. Failure will result of a hiatus of 1 whole year. Candidates have to pass Part 2 within 3 years of passing Part 1. In other words, no attempt is considered an attempt as the exam is conducted in a yearly basis.
If we compare the popular MRCP or MRCOG or MRCPCH, they are also accredited exam without accredited training, except for the posting in respective department, However they are registrable under NSR. How different is an MRCGP [INT] then?
Till date there is no way for a non-UK practitioner to graduate with an MRCGP [UK]. Eventhough the [INT] is equivalent to the [UK] counterpart, but the exam is just a paper qualification here in Malaysia.
My advise is, of you are already an established GP, don’t invest on MAFP/FRACGP. Unless you plan to increase your consultation fees to KPJ specialist level, there is no financial benefit. If you plan on migrating to Australia, take the AMC exam. Go over to Australia, work under a GP, and take your FRACGP exam there. The exam is much much easier there. MRCGP [INT] at this point of time, does not serve much purpose especially MOH recently announced only specialist who are registered under NSR can be called a specialist, while the rest : GP.
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the FRACGP exam is not much easier in Australia. The passing rate is still about 30% only. However, your chances of passing is higher simply because you are used to the clinical environment over there. The questions are based on Australian Healthcare system.
Yes, MRCGP(Int) is not recognised yet in Malaysia.
Hello dr..i am a medical officer in pathology dept currently..i would like to know is there any parallel pathway for pathology which is recognised in malaysia??
Not that I know
https://www.nsr.org.my/qualifications1.html
I saw this online..frcpa and frcpath is recognized..is it true dr?
Yes but need to be done in UK
Ok thanks a lot dr.. 🙂
Hello Dr, i’m going to finish my housemanship soon. Do you know if there any medical officer posts in Pusat Darah Negara?
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I think you should direct this question to PDN.
Dear Dr,
I am currently a year 3 student who are studying in RSCI (royal surgeon college Ireland).I have taken the penang medical college program which makes me spent my 2.5 pre-clinical year in Ireland and 2.5 clinical year in penang general hospital. Is that any opportunity for me to apply for a housemanship in Singapore after graduated from my school?
Do I have any other options rather than doing my 3 yrs housemanship in Malaysia? Thank you.
Thank you.
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PMC is only recognised in Ireland. As far as I know it is not recognized in Singapore
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dear sir,
Its indeed mind boggling and very informative to the budding doctors.Iam an ophthalmologist practicing general ophthalmology in india.My son is going to join mbbs in armenia and iwould like to know if he can take up plab ,usmle or an austrialia licensing exam immediately after finishing mbbs .2 can he work in any other eu countries since this degree is recognised .How to go about wtihout coming to india as it is too competitive.I need your valuable inputs on this accord.
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Anyone can sit for these exams as long as your university is listed in WDOMS. I think as far as EU is concerned, there is an agreement between the countries to recognise each others degrees but you need to check with the respective medical councils. Please bear in mind that passing these exams do not guarantee a job.
Hello Dr. Thank u so much for the enlightening post. I have just recently graduated and am now waiting for HO post. I do have a few questions regarding postgraduate studies.
a) Is MRCP the only option to do postgrad studies overseas? How about USMLE and AMS etc? Which is better and why?
b) To do overseas postgrad studies require a lot of money. What are the options of scholarship programs available if one seeks to pursue postgrad studies overseas ( lets say in Int.Med or Surgery after passing entrance exams MRCP/USMLE/AMS) ?
c) If one considers doing postgrad studies within Malaysia itself, which postgrad studies is best in Malaysia?
d) Also, I have heard that Malaysia is currently lacking in specialist in certain medical/surgical areas. I tried looking for information on these but most of it are from many years back. Any new information on this matter? I am thinking of specializing in areas where specialist are lacking as there will be more work demand/work available.
Hope to hear soon!
Thank you Dr.
I think you seem to be lost. You don’t seem to understand what medical postgraduate studies is all about.
1) MRCP is not a postgraduate degree. In UK, it is a diploma to enter postgraduate training. MRCP is only recognised in UK, HK and Singapore. USMLE is a entrance exam to be able to work in US and nothing to do with postgraduate studies. You must understand that postgraduate studies in medicine in Full time working, part time studying.
2) None. However you can do part of your subspeciality training overseas under KKM sponsorship. For surgery it is MRCS and not MRCP.
3) Don’t understand your question? best postgraduate study?
4) Malaysia is lacking in all specialist field as far as the government service is concerned. I think you should decide which field you want to specialise after you start your housemanship. I know many who wanted to do this and that but ended up going no where. You have not tasted life yet and do not know how a working life of doctor is. So, it is not where the shortage is but where you interest is. And you will only know your interest once you start working.
Hello,I would like to ask about the pathway of becoming orthopedic surgeon /ent surgeon /ophthalmologist surgeon . Is the pathway similar to those going for general surgeon? One more thing ,is the master degree from local university being recognized by worldwide?Or it is only valid in Malaysia
I think these questions have been answered in this blog and also in my books. Yes, you have to do local Master’s program. No, it is not recognised elsewhere.
Hello Dr Pagalavan,
I am a final year medical student. I’ve skimmed and scammed most of your replies in this thread and I roughly know the answer to my questions but due to changes over many years, I would like your re-confirmation. Note: My basic medical degree will not be recognised elsewhere.
1) Would you recommend me to purse my Housemanship training in the UK through the PLAB exam? I’m speaking in the sense of training wise and skill of becoming a more competent doctor compared to Malaysian HO training.
2) How are the job placements currently in the UK for foreign students applying for HO? (dated Nov.2017)
A reply to my message would very much be appreciated Dr Pagalavan. Thank you and have a great day ahead.
With regards,
J.K
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1) as far as housemanship goes, I don’t think there are much difference in training. In fact you do more rotation in malaysia than in UK. I would suggest not to waste time.
2) As far as I know, they don’t provide housemanship to foreigners except for those who graduated in UK.
Hi pagalavan
I m from pakistan,graduted in 2016,started my FCPS trainig in obs and gynae.i want to shift and do practice in uk just bcz my femily is shifted in uk..can i b able to practice there after completing mrcog??
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MRCOG is recognised in UK. But getting a job is another issue.
Hi, Mr Paga,
Can sir enlighten me about the pathway of becoming a researcher or even an educator (academia) after getting the medical degree? Such master program will be competitive or not?
You can’t become a lecturer for medical school which just a MBBS degree. You need a post graduate degree.
Researcher is a broad term. I am not sure which type are you talking about
Ya I am aware about that, I prefer to research on biomolecular thing, eg cancer treatment, anatomy, physiology but sir, I would like to ask something,
-will u encourage me to take medicine if my ultimate goal is to become a researcher? For me, I might prefer research more than contact with patients, but I feel that the clinical skills that I get will definitely help me in future research. I am struggling between medicine and biomedicine.
– Biomedicine in Malaysia has a low job prospect, I feel that medicine will give a wider job option. I had recently encountered a term “physician-scientist” and I am interested to venture it. (Plan to take Master in Biomedical Sc after mbbs)
-Hope sir can talk more about research option after mbbs.
Thanks
I think you are talking about basic science research. These are usually done by scientist and not doctors. Furthermore, there is no prospect for research in Malaysia as we are not a research based country. Of course there are doctors who go into basic science research and do not practise medicine at all.
Dear Sir,
And also will it be competitive to be enrolled in the research-based master programme? Do such programme need any specific exam like MRCP?
Thanks
no
Hi Dr Pagavalan, may I know what are the pathways of becoming a general surgeon in and outside of the country? and what is the job prospect? Thank you.
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The answers are in this blog. Please read the topic on ‘step by step…..”
Hello sir.
I have seen this post and it is very informative.
I have done MRCS. But IELTS exam is not successful for last one year to get job or further training in UK. BEsides this I have done training in orthopedic surgery in my country (Pakistan).
Can u guide me where else I can apply besides UK and Singapore. As Singapore are not answering any application for available jobs there.
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If you can’t pass IELTS , it is going to be difficult to get a job in any english speaking country. You can probably try Ireland, South Africa?
Hi Dr. Pagalavan, may I ask if by doing research assistant work while waiting for housemanship can help in entrance into local master postgraduate programme?
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No
Hi Dr. Paga, I have some doubts here.
-Can sir list down the pathway I should take if I am interested in psychiatry, public health or pathology? Any other international exam that I could take besides local master?
-I really hope I could work in Sg in future, is it possible I take MRCP, and then when I get residency in Sg, I take on their postgraduate diploma/master in my interested area(listed above)?
-Is there any way for a specialist in Msia, to get registered as a specialist in Sg also?
-Between Numed & IMU, which one would sir recommend?
Thanks.
1) MRCPsych is available for psychiatry but you must go to UK to sit for Part 2. The rest only Master’s program
2) MRCP will allow you to get a job as a MO in Singapore but no guarantee of a postgraduate training post. BTW MRCP is only to become an internal medicine specialist
3) so far no
4) both are OK
-So can Dr. Paga tell more about MRCPsych?
MCRPsych is just an exam, we do not need to do a residency in UK rite?
After passing this exam, would I have a higher chance to get a master in psychiatry from local uni? Does Singapore recognize MRCPsych?
-How about public health and pathology? Thanks
no need in UK, training can be done in Malaysia. MRCPsych is already a specialist exam in Malaysia, no need Masters.
For public health and pathology, no other option
Dear Dr. Paga,
I have some doubts regarding the MRCP test.
-Actually, what is the pros and cons of doing MRCP locally and overseas? (Since doing MRCP in Msia takes a longer time) (but if doing overseas, do we need to get residency in the respective country?)
-For MRCPsych, Singapore is one of the test centers where I could take all the 3 parts of MRCPsych,
-for the clinical part, it mentioned that need to have at least 2 years of internship experience in psychiatry wards, so is it hard for me to apply to have a post in such wards? Since our rotations did not include it!
Thanks.
both are the same, no difference. The longer time is because in Malaysia it is categorised as exit exam to become a specialist but in UK it is an entrance exam into specialist training. MRCP does not make you a specialist in UK or Singapore.
You will not be given internship post in psychiatry during your housemanship. You can request to be posted to psychiatry department/hospital after your 2 years housemanship. That depends firstly whether you will get a job after internship and secondly ,availability of post
Ok thank you Dr. Could I have yr email pls, I wish to ask something more personal to dr can?
Thanks
Pagal72@gmail.com
Thank you, doctor. I will email u a few days later when I finished reading yr blogs.
Dr., another thing, what is your opinion about the intercalated study in UK? (NUmed offer master in clinical research for one year, which means we take a year off during our studies in MBBS), Is it useful if later I want to venture into the medical research area in Msia or UK?
Thanks.
it is useful but not in malaysia.
Dr, I had sent an email to u ya. Thanks.
Hi Dr Paga, I’m a fresh grad currently waiting for HO posting. I was wondering what are your thoughts on aesthetic medicine and the new Medical Aesthetic Certification program in Malaysia? Is it something worth getting into? Thanks!
aesthetic = glorified beautician! is that the reason you became a doctor?
Actually, the reason I became a doctor was because I was pressured by my parents haha! I’m scratching my head now, I don’t know what my options are if someday I decide I truly cannot handle it. I would still like to do something medicine-related so that my degree would not have been a waste…
that’s the case most of the time!
Hi Dr Letchumanan,
May I know if there is a website to find out which sort of postgraduate training is recognised in Malaysia? I was thinking to venture into A+E via Acute Care Common Stem (ACCS) route offered in the UK. I understand that it would be a master programme in Malaysia if I were to enrol in the course. I am uncertain if i ACCS would be transferrable / accepted in Malaysia if I were to come back half way through my training due to unforeseen circumstances.
Please would you kindly advice on this matter. Many thanks.
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You can check with national specialist register website
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I currently graduated from med school and is interested in doing ophthalmology in the future. I was thinking if I should take frcopth part 1 during the waiting period. However there are very limited information as to whether it will be beneficial in the future for application of masters programme/ proceeding to continue in Singapore or even the U.K (after passing PLAB etc). Thus I really hope to get some advice in this matter. Hopefully Dr can help.
Regards, Jess
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I don’t think you can even sit for it if you are not in practice
Hi Dr. Thanks for the informative blog… i like it very much.
Quick check, how long is the compulsory services do we need to serve before granted a specialist in Malaysia (MRCPUK General Medical)?
2yrs HM + 1yr MO + 18mo Gazzet?
Or
2yrs HM + 3yrs MO + 18mo Gazzet?
You need 4 years of Internal medicine training to be gazetted as Physician, does not include housemanship. The 18months is after you complete MRCP.
Dr. Thks for prompt reply.
Just to clarify, is my understanding correct.
2yrs HOUSEMAN + 4yrs MO + 18mo Gazette.
We can take MRCP p1-p3 within the 4yrs MO service. But we only can apply for gazette after completed 4yrs MO. Then follow by 18mo gazette. So total is 7.5yrs to be specialist.
Right?
The 18 months is after MRCP but the total must be 4 years of Internal medicine training.
Dr. So the 18mo Gazette cannot includes/count in/as the total of 4yrs internal medicine service right? Assumed i hv passed the mrcp within 3yrs, so not yet full 4yrs service in internal medicine as MO.
*sorry for asking those questions. I’m not a Dr. Just checking for my understanding. Thks.
It is included but the total should be 4 years
Thank you very much dr. Now I’m clear.
thank you Dr. Pagalavan for the insightful and honest post.
i am a jpa bonded student that recently graduated mbbs from india. Currently, i’m waiting for housemanship. I’m interested in doing ophthalmology but there is little information regarding how to go about it in Malaysian hospital set-up.
1. Is there a parallel pathway for ophthalmology? (eg. mrcp for medicine, mrcs for surgery)
2. Any exams i can take for ophthalmology during housemanship to be in priority to obtain a masters seat?
3. what are the acceptance rate into the masters programme like?
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As far as I know, Master’s is the only way. Acceptance rate into Master’s depends on number of applicants and number of post offered.
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I am a medical officer in a district hospital almost 2 years of service in medical department. I would like to apply for master of pathology to work in lab.
Which postgraduate program can I apply? Am I still be paid while studying? can i apply as a trainee lecturer? Is pathologist having the same grade and salary as other specialist?
Master in Pathology. You will be given full pay as long as you are a KKM employee. This is because you are STILL WORKING while studying. All specialist in KKM will be given same salary.
Hi Dr. Pagalavan,
A very interesting read indeed!
Just to enquire,recently i have received a offer for cardiothoracic surgery in Universitas Airlangga,Indonesia.
i was medical student from universitas hassanudin,currently a surgical MO.
If i go ahead by doing it,will it be recognized in malaysia and what are the procedures like.
thank you Dr.
As far as I know, no university in Indonesia which is recognised by Malaysia for Cardiothoracic training. You can check at NSR website on which degrees that are recognised in Malaysia.
Hello Dr Pagalavan,
From your previous post, i’ve understand that the pathway to become an orthopaedic surgeon in Malaysia is to take master programme in the available public university and taking mrcs is just to help you to get better chance to get into the programme. So is it means that to take this programme in public uni you can only started after completed ho? Or is there any other courses or exams that should be taken before starting the master programme?
Master’s can only be applied after completing HO and least 1 year of MO
Hye Dr.. I’m 5th year medical student from Mansoura University ,Egypt. I’m studying under the twinning programme of Mansoura-Manchester Medical Programme. So I would like to ask is it possible for me to continue my houseman or internship in overseas and continue persuing for specialist?Or do I have to go through HO in Malaysia first?
entirely up to you. It may be recognised in UK for you to do internship there. No guarantee of getting a job though
Hi Dr, i want to ask is there any possibility to further in dermatology without having to take mrcp/master in medicine?
Thank you
Nope. UKM did run a Master’s in Dermatology before. Generally dermatology is a subspeciality of medicine.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
Thank you for your blog and for all your replies to every thread! Reading through them make me more aware of the fairly bleak but real situation in Malaysia.
I am working as an FY2 in the UK (self-sponsored). I appreciate that you would encourage self-sponsored students to stay in the UK until completion of training, however due to personal family circumstances I might come back sooner than expected. I have passed parts of the MRCPCH papers (FOP, TAS; previously known as part 1) in hope that this would make my return to Msia slightly easier. My questions are:
1) If I come back after the completion of FY2, with MRCPCH theory passed, how soon will I get a post in MO paeds in a hospital (hopefully in larger teaching hospitals and in a location that I’d prefer; KL/Selangor). I’m married and my wife is not a doctor, so it will be fairly inconvenient to move around. Will that be considered if I put that in my application form? I also understand that the queue is fairly long in Malaysia.
2) To apply for MO in Malaysia (paediatrics), what do they look for in your application (i.e., is it based on credits, publication? Will MRCPCH parts increase my chances of getting the job?) I’ve spoken to friends who also said they look at your houseman ‘merits’ but it is quite vague and esp if I come back from overseas where the houseman programme is different from the ones in Msia
3) I read that APC is required to practice in Malaysia. I am not too clear about the APC requirements. Some say you need 2HO+ 2MO service to apply for it, however if I’ve just come back to Msia and want to work as an MO, clearly I wouldn’t fit the criteria? i’m guessing there is a different process for overseas graduate?
4) Lets say optimistically I get to extend my stay in the UK for another 4 years (to complete general paediatrics training), upon returning to Malaysia and getting registered with NSR after gazettement, would subspecialising be another competitive process and another long wait and transfers to different locations before I get to subspecialise in the area I want (eg paeds psychiatry/respiratory)
Thank you very much for your time. I realised I’ve asked a few compound questions. Sorry if some questions are found on websites that I’ve unfortunately not come across.
So sorry Dr Pagalavan, one last question
5) What do you think about the masters programme if that makes the training pathway easier in Malaysia. i understand that it is again competitive, has a long waiting period, not recognised elsewhere, and probably not realistic since i have started MRCPCH. But i had a read at the handbook and the training seems quite structured and i will be based in a teaching hospital, and will be able to complete subspecialty within 4 years (seems like a faster route? but perhaps harder work). Thank you once again for your time
The training is more structured but the waiting time is definitely getting longer.
The other option you have is to join university hospitals like UH or HUKM. It depends of vacancy as well but they tend to give preference to those who have MRCP or MRCPCH.
1) Firstly there is no such thing as MO Paeds post. There is only a general MO post. If you had read my latest articles, you will realise that even those who are finishing HO in Malaysia are NOT receiving permanent post in KKM. I know a few from UK /Australia who had applied to SPA/KKM and was told that there is no recruitment process at this point in time. Based on a circular in 2017 from MMC (which I had posted in my blog before), MMC can release you from the need of compulsory service if you have 2 years of post HO experience overseas and unable to secure a job in KKM within 6 months. Please read that circular. If you ever receive a job in KKM, you will be posted to where there is a vacancy. The current situation do not allow you to choose the location or the department that you are going to work.
2) There is no standard criteria. While having MRCPCH would have given you an advantage before, not anymore and we do not have enough post even for our local guys. Please read my latest article to know what is happening right now.
3) It’s full registration. You need to apply for full registration. Only then you can apply for a job. APC is issued once your job is confirmed. Full registrations is after you complete horsemanship. UK horsemanship is recognised in Malaysia but that depends on MMC, whether you need to complete any further training like O&G etc.
4) After NSR, you need to wait for minimum of 1 year before being eligible for subspecialty training. The actual waiting period depends on the Q and number of training centres. Yes, you will be transferred as the training centres may be in different locations.
From the questions above, I think you don’t quite understand the situation in Malaysia at the moment. Very likely you will not even be considered for a MO post by KKM as they are already struggling to give post to local grads.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
Thanks for taking time to reply to all of my questions. And yes i have now read your latest post (tragedy or comedy)
1) when you say there is no MO Paeds post does it mean that I will not have the ‘proper training’ to deal with paediatric cases/emergencies? Here in the UK, if i apply for ST1 paediatrics i will be trained in a paediatric department for 6-8 years, dealing with neonates, children, paeds emergency etc. So in Malaysia I won’t be posted to such a ‘department’ in the hospital where i am dealing more with children and where i will be ‘supervised’ to manage the paediatric patients?
5) sorry, is application to UH and HUKM master-equivalent, is it any different from the usual normal application after HO (to MO)?
I am terribly sorry for taking up your time. I have tried finding for useful links to to get a clearer idea about specialty training pathways in Malaysia but have not been very successful. If you have any useful links to direct me i’d appreciate it, and of course once again extremely grateful for your previous detailed response. Hopefully I won’t be asking you any more questions!
1) you will receive an MO post and posted to the state where the post is available. The state department will then decide which hospital/klinik kesihatan you will be posted depending on the vacancy. Of course, you can request the state director to post you to a tertiary hospital as you want to complete your MRCPCH but if there is no vacancy in the said hospital, you will likely be posted to a small district hospital or KK and they will inform you that you can apply after 1 year to go to any tertiary hospital within the state. Don’t compare UK as in UK it is a structured training program coordinated by the colleges. Here, MRCPCH is a self-training pathway. But in order for you to be recognised as paediatrician, you not only have to pass the MRCPCH altogether but must have also completed 4 years of paediatrics training. This is where it gets a bit tricky! That’s why I always advised those who wants to return to Malaysia to complete all training in UK. Put emotions aside, like family issues etc.
2) No, it is not Master’s equivalent. You will only be provided a service MO post. But it is much easier to get into the paediatric department and also into Master’s program if you are good. It may take a year or two.
Sorry Dr Pagalavan, one final question i promise. NSR says that we need 4 years of training. I think I read somewhere that says that includes gazettement? Does that mean if worse case scenario I have to shorten my stay in the UK, i can complete my ST3 (3 years to complete MRCPCH papers), and come back to be gazetted (18 months), and that will fulfil the ‘4 year’ training criteria from NSR to be registered as a general paediatrician?
It’s not 4 years of training + 18 months gazettement
Thank you once again, and sorry for taking up your time. Have a great week Dr!
The 4 years includes a 6 months gazettement period. 18 months should be done after passing MRCPCH, which includes the 6 months. Whether your training in UK will be recognised depends on NSR but usually they do. BUT as I said, the issue would be whether you can get a job.
Dear Dr,
Are there statistics available, which indicate the demand or job vacancies for doctors depending on their areas of specialisation? A specific question would be whether dermatologist and gastroenterologist would still be in demand ?
We still need a lot of specialist. The issue is our system is not ready to provide the training to become one. It also depends on whether you are talking about public or private sector. For example, we do have enough cardiologist in all major towns in Peninsular in private sector but not public! Same goes to all other specialities as well. People will only go to places where there is money to make. That’s where maldistribution comes into play.
Hello dr, I’ve found your blog and it’s really great. I do have a question, what is actually “gazettement” ? Since I can’t really find info about it. Does it mean the dr already a specialist? And after gazettement what will happen? What is mean by waiting period? Waiting for what?
You need to undergo a gazettement period, meaning, work under supervision before being gazetted as a specialist. This is after you complete your training to become a specialist. Having a specialist qualification does not make you a specialist without undergoing a gazettement period
Hi Dr, I’m a medical student from AIMST University. Which exam should i take after getting MBBS degree to specialise in neurosurgery?
Please read my blog article on this.
Respected Dr,
In order to sit for mrcp 1, I need 12 months experience, does that mean after first year HO or MO? What about mrcp part 2 and paces, what further experience do I require? Can I sit for it even if I’m posted to a different department as MO?
And further more after completing mrcp, is the 18 month gazettement period the only requirement to become specialist?
I don’t understand the 4 year thing…..Is it before mrcp/ after mrcp? Does it include the gazettement period? Suppose my contract ends, then what would happen?
And is it the same for MRCPsych?
I’ve read your answers above but I’m still slightly confused. Would really appreciate your response, thank you dr!
you need to check the latest guideline on this. Usually you can sit for Part 1 , 12 months after graduating but i was told that this rule has changed. Please check the college website.
Yes, you can sit for it no matter which department you are in but I am not sure about MRCPsych.
You need 4 years of training in Internal Medicine to be recognised as an Internal medicine specialist, during which time you need to pass all parts of MRCP. Even if you pass early, you still need to complete the 4 years training. Gazettement is 6 months after the 4 years. the 18 months include 1 year post MRCP training and 6 months of gazettement. the 1 year post MRCP can be part of the 4 years in total. You must understand that MRCP do not make you a specialist as it is not a specialist exam. It is just part of the requirement.
This is the reason you need to be in civil service to complete the training. If your contract ends, you would not be able to complete your training and would not be able to be recognised as specialist. You also would not be able to do subspecialioty training.
MRCPsch do have the 4 year rule as well.
Respected dr, suppose I complete my mrcp but can’t fulfill the 18month gazettement etc because of the contract MO issues, would I still be recognised in Singapore, can I still apply to be a doctor there?
MRCP is recognised in Singapore and you can work as a MO/registrar in Singapore, but not a specialist.
Hi Dr
Any feedback about the FRACGP courses held here in Malaysia under Academy of Family Physicians of Malaysia?
yes, it is a 4 year program under academy of family physician and it is recognised in Malaysia since 2006 for Family Medicine speciality. However, those who enrol into this program from January 2019 the FRACGP will not be recognised in Australia directly as before.You need to complete further requirements to be eligible for recognition/registration in Australia. The details of this further requirement is not out yet, as far as I know.
Hi Dr., I am a local graduate, currently in my final posting as a house officer in Malaysia. I want to become a paediatrician and I hope to migrate to UK. Do I take PLAB or do I complete MRCPCH first and only then apply as a paediatrician?
Hi dr, im a malaysian who is a 4th yr med student currently studying at a private university in malaysia. Is it possible to do masters in India and continue to work there? What are the procedures?
Is your degree recognised in India? As far as I know, no malaysian medical degree is automatically recognised in India. You have to sit for the screening test. MASTERS from India is not recognised in Malaysia.
Hi dr, Im a 4th year medical student from Malaysia studying in a private university in malaysia. Can i do my masters in India and continue working there?
Hi dr, im a year 4 med student from Malaysia studying in a private university at Malaysia. Can I pursue my masters in India and continue working there? What are the procedures Dr?
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I’ve read your blog posts and it has been immensely helpful in informing about the future of doctors in Malaysia. I am a 3rd year IMU student, in the dilemma whether to follow the PMS track to University of Dundee in Scotland UK. I am currently inclined towards studying locally. But as I read about the recent situation in Malaysia where the KKM stopped offering drs completing the 2 years of housemanship programme permanent posts in government hospital and are instead are given the a temporary and end of service contract. I am worried that I will not be able to complete the MRCP and specialist gazettement process in time before the contract ends.
I am asking Dr for any advice on the future in Malaysia Bolehland, if I could still make it as a specialist with sufficient preparation and luck. Or is the future really so bleak, then I would have to consider studying in the PMS track in Dundee. Really appreciate any form of advice on the current situation as I am in a dilemma. Thank you!
My advise is always to keep your options open! Thus, I would choose a pathway that would give me that, which is, of course the PMS track.
Hi. Is it possible to pratice at Singapore if pass MRCOG part1 and 2 exam with degree non recognized by Singapore Medical Council?Thank you.
MRCOG(full degree) is recognised in Singapore, thus you should be able to work In Singapore. But not as a specialist.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am a medical student from Monash Malaysia.
I desire to do orthopedics in future and am aware that it is very competitive to do Masters in Malaysia, therefore I would like to plan ahead.
I would like to know that after I have completed MRCS 1 and 2 in Malaysia, can I obtain MRCS 3 training as an MO in Singapore since Monash Malaysia’s degree is not recognized in Singapore?
Thank you.
Regards,
Tai
You need to check with SMC. It use to be possible about 10 years ago but a lot of things have changed.
Excuse me, since Singapore is a recognised centre for MRCS Part 3 training, may I know can malaysian apply for the MRCPCH part 3 clinical training in Singapore, if already pass the MRCPCH part 1 and 2 in malaysia?
Nope, you need to pass the entire MRCPCH before applying for a job in singapore. Unless your basic degree is recognised.
Good day Dr, I’m so glad I found your blog which enlightened so many junior doctors out here. A big applause for you Dr.
I’m a new HO just started my housemanship 1 month ago. I’m having interest in Orthopaedics but to be honest I found it a little bit difficult to get info regarding the pathway after housemanship, especially since the contract system.
I would like to ask a few questions and hope that Dr can clear my doubt.
1.) I’ve heard that passing MRCS part 1 will secure your MO placement in either Surgery or Orthopaedics. Is it true?
2.) Those who pass OSC Part 1 Exam after becoming MO will be recognized as a candidate who is ready to be selected into the Master of Orthopaedic Surgery training program. Does it mean that it only provides some extra points but not a guaranteed seat in Master programs of Orthopaedics?
3.) If the above two points are true, do you think that it’s better to just finish MRCS part 1 during my housemanship, just to secure MO placement in surgical based posting, rather than completing the whole MRCS as it’s not recognized in Malaysia, and straight away focus on OSC Part 1 Exam after becoming MO to have more chance to get the seat into Master program of Orthopaedics? Or do you think there’s other better suggestion?
Thank you Dr in advanced for reading my comments. Hopefully my question did not annoy you because I can’t really find answers for these doubts. Thank you Dr.
1) that was what MOH promised initially but as you know, even those who pass this exams are not receiving a permanent job. Since there is no available post, it will be very unlikely that you can request where you want to go after housemanship.
2) Yes, nothing is guaranteed as it also depends on availability of slots.
3) Medicine is a life long learning. You can sit for all these exams which can improve your chances of getting a place in local Master’s program. But always remember: it also depends on the number of applicants, seniority and SKT marks. There are 3rd up to 5th year MOs still waiting for their Master’s slot. The contract system complicates the matter further as Master’s is only open to permanent doctors. Of course you can try being a private candidate (limited numbers) and pay full rate, hoping the university hospital can provide you an “unpaid” job.
hello dr , im a usm md graduate already started my hoship few months now , if i plan to take mrcs , what is the possibility of me continuing my surgical training in the uk , i read that if you pass mrcs you will be able to apply for gmc that allow you to work as a st1/st2 in uk .
Yes, you can work in UK with MRCS. But you will not get a training post immediately. You will only get a non training post and you need to apply later for a training post. Be informed that surgical training post is one of the most difficult to get.
Hello doctor. When doing master’s programme, will I be considered a student or will I still have to go to work and be paid? I am aware that when studying, it will be like working but what I mean is that do I get to keep my job as a MO and do my masters or will I only be allowed to do my masters? Thank you.
Masters in medicine is FULL TIME working and part time studying. You are not a student. Your job in MOH is the same and you will continue to be paid. This is for those with permanent jobs.
Understood. Will I be working in the same hospital as my masters rotation or will it be different hospitals? Thank you. Additionally, when applying for masters, do I apply to the university directly?
that depends on whether you are doing in campus or off campus system. Only in off campus system, you stay in KKM hospital but it must be an accredited hospital for Masters program. Application is via a central system.
Hello Dr. Can you share the link of the central system used to apply for masters if there is? Thank you.
Greetings Dr, Im a medical student from Aimst University. Is there a possibility if i could do specialisation in overseas after completing MBBS without doing housemanship?
Firstly your degree must be recognised overseas which is not. Secondly, there is no such thing as doing specialisation without doing housemanship anywhere in this world.
Good morning Dr, I’m interested in specialising in general surgery and I’m planning to take MRCS soon. Is there any other ways to be a surgeon without going through Masters programme in Malaysia? Because I’m afraid the waiting period is too long. And also, around how long do people usually wait to get a place in the Masters programme without taking the scholarship.
MRCS do not make you a surgeon. In Malaysia, Master’s in the only pathway except for Cardiothoracic where KKM has come up with a parallel pathway. Waiting period is long and now I think they have introduced an entry exam as well.Genetrally, use to be abnout 2 years after housemanship but I heard some are waiting for almost 4 years already.
Good morning Dr, I’m interested in doing general surgery and Im planning to take MRCS. May I know if there is any other ways of becoming a specialist in general surgery without taking the Masters programme? Because I’m afraid the waiting time is too long. And also, around how long do people usually take to get a place as a self-paid student.
Hello Dr Pagalavan,
I have a few queries for you that I’m hoping you’ll be able to answer.
1. Are we allowed to take a break between our years of being houseman and being medical officer?
I’m just trying to figure out how to have a family in this whole picture because as I understand there isn’t maternity leave.
2. Currently, how do they decide which houseman/medical officer will be put on a contract and which don’t?
3. From what I understood from your series of posts, only 10% get to undergo their masters programme. What about the other 90% who don’t get to do their masters? Could you elaborate further on that matter, please?
Regards.
1. currently all post for housemanship are given on contract basis. As such, no such breaks will be allowed as your contract will not be renewed.
2) ALL housemen are under contract for 3 years. After 3 years you need to apply for permanent position. The chances of receiving a permanent position currently is less than 10 % (please read some of my latest articles since 2019). The rest will be given extended contract of another 2 years which would be the final contract.
3) The answers are all in this blog. Please read from A to Z.
Hi Dr,
I am a final year medical student now and I have a few queries in my mind:
1) What are your thoughts on the job prospects and career in aesthetic medicine in Malaysia? If I am not mistaken we will need to complete our contract service with government and go for the LCP. Do we need to fulfill any requirements?
2) I am interested to subspecialize in dermatology under the parallel pathway which is taking the MRCP. Do I need to complete 3 parts of the MRCP and proceed to fellowship in dermatology? How does the application process like and what are the accredited training centre in Malaysia?
Dear Dr. Pagalavan,
I have a few queries for you that I’m hoping you’ll be able to answer.
1. I am a Y4 medical student hoping to pursue emergency medicine in the future, how would you describe the future of emergency medicine in Malaysia.
2. I didn’t see you mention MRCEM in this post, is it still recognized by the MMC?
All the best to you, hope you are healthy and happy during these hard times of the pandemic.
Regards.
We still need a lot of emergency physicians. MRCEM is not recognised as a specialist degree by NSR/MMC. You need to complete your proper training and received the fellowship. This can’t be done in Malaysia. Even Part 2, to my knowledge is not done in Malaysia. There are centres in Singapore and India to sit for the Part 2 but you need to go to UK to complete your training.
My daughter who is currently completed her 2 yrs houseman in the medical field in Malaysia intends to pursue her specialization in orthopedics. Can someone guide us on how to apply for this course in Ireland University.
She needs to register with the Irish Medical Council for a practising licence and then get a job there first. Following that, she would need to apply to get into basic specialist training post (although this may require other criteria to be fulfilled) before she can complete the higher training and subsequently qualify as a consultant in orthopaedics.
Firstly, I am not sure why you are asking for your daughter. Your daughter should be doing this. Medicine postgraduate education is not about applying like any other field. You need to be in service and apply for a training position. Thus, in order for you to do your post graduate in Ireland, first you need to find a job in Ireland, work for a few years and then apply for training post.
Dear Mr Pagalavan, Thank you for the reply. The question raised on why i am asking on behalf of my daughter is that i am a concern parent who would like to source for info. Secondly as a houseman in Malaysia, you have limited time for being online sourcing for options. She is currently in service in Malaysia and in my opinion just asking for info on the process of application is not causing any harm to anyone. Anyways, thank you for being helpful. Sarna
I feel your daughter should know by now how the medical training system works. Thus, it is best for her to ask these questions.
1. I m a Bangladeshi who graduated MBBS from a malaysian university (IMU). After I done my internship in Bangladesh can I apply for post graduate in Malaysia or work in Malaysia?
2. If I marry a malaysian can I apply for internship in Malaysia?
Since 2014, Malaysia do not provide job to any foreigners, even if you are married to a Malaysian.
Hi there, I’m not sure if you’ve talked about this before but, I am wondering if it is possible to do housemanship in the UK if you’re a recent undergraduate (MBBS/MD) from Malaysia? If so, are there any special requirements/tests, etc that one would need to do to apply for HO-ship in the UK as a Malaysian graduate? Thank you in advance!
You need to sit and pass the PLAB exams. Unless you are a Newcastle Malaysia graduate.
Thank you for answering my question Mr. Pagavalan. If I do sit and pass the PLAB exam and start my housemanship and work long term in the UK, will it be possible for me to work in Malaysia if I do choose to come back after a couple of years?
Yes
I was wondering who can sit for Medex paper? If I am waiting for my housemanship but havent started my housemanship training, am I eligible to sit for it?
No
Dear Dr. My son has got admission in IMU with PMS programme. My query is after graduation from the PMS in UK OR AUSTRALIA OR IRELAND, can he do the horsemanship in the respective country?
Yes, if post available
thank you dr.
Medicine Degree received from IMU-PMS universities in UK, Australia, and Ireland are recognized in Europe and US?
For Europe, need to check with individual country. For US : NO
Thank you so much dr for your time for us.
Hi Dr Pagalavan, I was considering to join internship programme in Australia (I resigned from MOH hospital for housemanship). I was wondering if I stopped halfway there (not yet a specialist), if I were to come back to Malaysia, what are the options do I have? Thank u so much in advance.
Unless you are from Monash Malaysia, it is very unlikely for you to get any internship post in Australia unless you have passed AMC exams. If you come back half way, with the current scenario, you can only become a GP, unless you get a job in one of the university hospitals.
Hi Dr Pagalavan, would someone be able to do FRACGP while working in a GP? Or must at least have become a medical officer in klinik kesihatan?
Yes, you can
Hi Doctor. My date of passed exam in Manipal was July 2022 and convo was in November 2022. I delayed registration for housemanship up until now due to family and health issues. I plan to register for MERITS now but I’m quite worried if there might be issues since I delayed for so long without giving any reasons to MOH.
I also heard that maximum registration period for HO after graduation is 2 years..which is why I’m concerned. I would really appreciate your advise on this matter Doctor.
You should go ahead and do the nrcessary
Hi Doctor. My date of passed exam in Manipal was July 2022 and convo was in November 2022. I delayed registration for housemanship up until now due to family and health issues. I plan to register for MERITS now but I’m quite worried if there might be issues since I delayed for so long without giving any reasons to MOH.
I also heard that maximum registration period for HO after graduation is 2 years..which is why I’m concerned. I would really appreciate your advise on this matter Doctor.