For Future Doctors: General Misconception of being a doctor PART 1
Over the last few months, many budding doctors have contacted me to ask about the future prospects of doing medicine. Of course I gave them a depressing night after informing them of the current and future prospects of doctors in Malaysia. During these discussions I realise that many of these people do not understand a lot of issues surrounding the field of medicine. Thus I was obliged to write this article to wake up these people from their dream of “guaranteed” life if you were to become a doctor!
1) Guaranteed Job and Good salary/can make money
Many parents still believe that being a doctor guarantee their children’s future. Well, it may be so before but not in another 5-10 years time. You can read about these issues in my MMA articles column. 20 years ago we only had 3 medical schools producing about 400 doctors a year but now we have almost 30 medical schools in the country (the highest per capita population in the world). Last year alone, almost 4000 new doctors started housemanship in Ministry of Health (MOH). The number will further increase in coming years when all the medical schools start to produce their graduates. I believe it will reach a figure of 6000/year by 2015.
This is where issues arise. Even now, the MOH is struggling to place these doctors in various hospitals in the country. We have almost 30-40 houseofficers in each department now not knowing what to do every day. Their training is compromised and they are being released after that without proper training with license to kill! I may sound negative but this is the reality. Even district hospitals are being used to train houseofficers now, starting 2010. As you would have read in the papers recently of parents complaining that their child has been transferred to East Malaysia after completing housemanship, it is a known fact that the shortage of doctors at this point of time is in East Malaysia. As our MOH Director General had said, most doctors will be sent to Sabah and Sarawak from this year on wards.
What’s going to happen in the next few years? Again, my prediction is, there will be surplus of doctors by 2015. There will more bodies than post in MOH by 2015. Doctors most likely will need to queue up to be posted in government service. You will be sent to rural and East Malaysia to serve. Any appeal will not be entertained. If you think this would not happen, please look at the nurses! 5 years ago, the government began to approve numerous nursing colleges due to shortage of nurses. Now, we have surplus of nurses without any jobs. I know of nurses who are currently working in petrol stations! BTW, the MOH is currently considering introducing common entry exams for all medical graduates. Only those who pass this exam will be given housemanship post. This will happen soon.
Furthermore there may be a pay cut for doctors when all the post are filled. One of the allowance known as critical allowance of RM 750 will be removed once all the posts are filled. Critical allowance is never a fixed allowance and is usually reviewed every 3 years. As you know, the pharmacist’s critical allowance is going to be removed if not already.
I had one budding doctor who said that the reason she wanted to do medicine is because it is the only field where you have a guaranteed job and a starting salary of RM 6000. Well, I have talked about guaranteed job issue above but she is definitely wrong in stating that the starting salary. The starting salary of HO has gone up over the last 5 years; no doubt about it (please read my MMA article). However, the starting salary of HO currently is about RM 3500 to about RM4000 after including the on-call allowance. Remember, your salary only increases about RM 70/year. You will only reach a salary of RM 6000 after 7 years of service as a medical officer, when you are promoted to U48 according to current promotional prospect in civil service introduced end of last year! BTW, other than the difference of critical allowance, a doctor’s salary is only RM 200 more than a pharmacist in civil service!
2) Medical degree recognition
If I can’t work in Malaysia, I can go to Singapore or Australia to work, right?
Again, another misconception. Many do not know that medicine is a very peculiar field and cannot be compared to any other profession. In order for you to work in another country, your degree needs to be recognised by the Medical Council of the other country. If it is not recognised, you would not be able to work there. For your information, only UKM and UM degrees are recognised in Singapore.
Almost all medical degrees from Malaysia are NOT recognised elsewhere. Malaysia Boleh mah! Only Monash University Malaysia’s medical degree is recognised by Australian Medical Council and thus you would be able to work in Australia/New Zealand. Some of the private medical colleges do twinning programmes with external universities from Ireland/UK/India etc. These may be recognised depending on which degree and where you graduate from.
3) Housemanship & Compulsory service
I have mentioned a little about housemanship above. As you know the housemanship has been extended to 2 years since 2008. Even though it is good for your own training but it does prolong your future postgraduate training. After Housemanship you have to undergo another 2 years of compulsory service before you decide to resign for private practise or pursue your postgraduate degree. It is during this compulsory service that you will be posted to anywhere in the country.
Furthermore, housemanship is not an easy posting. Even though the numbers of HOs have increased tremendously over the last 2 years, it is still a very exhausting job. Many have had a mental breakdown during housemanship. I just heard of a houseman who is on psychiatric MC for the last 2 months! It seems she thought that being a doctor is just like sitting in a clinic and seeing cold cases (probably she thought she can become a GP immediately!)
4) Hard work and post graduate training
20-30 years ago, being an MBBS holder itself is good enough. You can easily open a clinic and become a GP and well respected by the community. But things are changing. Even GP practise is a speciality by itself in many countries (Master in Family Medicine/FRACGP etc). Malaysia is also moving towards that. Many patients are demanding and would prefer to see a specialist directly nowadays.
Thus it is important that when you join medicine undergraduate degree, please be prepared to continue your education for another 10 years after graduation! In order for you to complete your postgraduate education, it will easily take another 10 years, assuming you pass all your exams in one try! So, don’t assume your education is only 5 years! MBBS do not mean anything now, in fact it is only considered as a diploma!
Getting into postgraduate training is also becoming increasing difficult. The number of places for Master’s programme is very much limited in local universities. The demand is greater than supply and of course don’ forget the quota system as well! Other than MRCP (UK) – internal medicine, MRCPCH (UK) – paediatric and MRCOG - Obstetric, you have to depend on local master’s programme for your speciality. Thus, you have a very limited option. With such a big number of doctors coming into the market now, I can assure you that getting a place for post graduate education is going to be a major problem in 2-3 years time! Be prepared.
TO BE CONTINUED………………………….
Hi Dr. Pagalavan!
Its refreshing to see this light! I’m a fresh graduate from Ukraine and will be moving into service very soon. Great article you have wrote. It has enlightened me quite a bit.
With the recent rumor i heard, indeed in about 5 years time, there will be a surplus of doctors. I am worried about the post grad programs that is local. Are they recognized overseas at all? I heard that many (if not all) local post grad degrees are not recognized overseas.
reuben
You are absolutely correct. None of our Master’s programme is recognised overseas, even in singapore. It is going to be extremely difficult to get into master’s programme in near future with limited space.
i wanna ask now i’m studying md program in allianze university.i had finished sem 1 but hope to transfer back to aimst university,can i?
Not as far as I know. Most universities don’t accept transfers anymore as their curicullum are different. You may need to start all over even if they accept you.
can u reply me to my email?thanks a lotz^^urgent!!
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
Your article really caught my eye when i was browsing through some websites. It is true that The medical profession has been in the limelight these few years. As a 4th year medical student myself, i know the reality that is waiting for me when i start my housemanship in 2 years time.
But another important aspect about the field of medicine is the passion that most students have when they wanted to become a doctor. Its this passion and the love for this field that has brought up many good professional doctors throughout these years. Well i dont deny there are increasing number of doctors in Malaysia but the housemanship years will bring out the best in the best like you. A Consultant Rheumatologist.
Im sure its the passion that drove you to achieve this level and im sure there are many aspiring doctors who want to be jus like you. Increasing competition will bring out the best in the best. Well thats my opinion bout this issue.
Thank you very much Dr pagalavan for the information about the current situation in malaysia
Yes, that’s exactly what I said. If you have passion for medicine and not for money or glory, then go ahead.
But many who do medicine, do it for job security and money. If that is so then you will regret it!
Dr Pagalavan i trully enjoy reading your blog ,even as a 5th year medical student i have to come to realise there many perks and downs that i have not known and heard in this job. Dr i would like to know in your opinion when is the best time to take the MRCP exam?? i have read about the exam , from what i understand the first paper are tested on our basic knowledge we learn on year 1 to 3 of med school, so would it not be easier if we can take the exam right after med school? but are we allowed to do so??.. Dr if its possible , i would love to see you write an article on what are the postgraduate exams recognised in malaysia and how to go about it. this would be really helpfull for student like me who are completely lost what to do after graduating from med school !! thank you ! …
I will write more about postgraduate training soon. Please wait and I will upload in another 1-2 weeks time.
these facts you are talking about kind of scared me…but its a reality I need to take. this current issues about medical studies and doctors profession truly unexpected for me…i never thought that it would come this far.
[...] For Future Doctors: General Misconception of being a doctor PART 1 September 2010 7 comments 5 [...]
dear Dr Pagalavan
thank you for the article which give me the info about the current medical situation in malaysia. i am a medicine student in egypt currently second year. could you describe a little bit about housemenship program in malaysia because currently our university requirement was after 6 years of study we need to accomplish 1/2 years of housemen in egypt. most of malaysian students here didnt favour this condition because of certain excuses. so before dealing with our university to demolish the housemen in egypt another additional 1/2 years. i would like to equip myself with the current situation of housemenship in malaysia
thank you..
I have written about housemanship in Malaysia in my other postings under ” For Future Doctors: Housemanship, district postings and postgraduate training” series. Please look under my Education page.
hello doctor i am really interested in this field as i am a spm leaver,I agree with ur article that soon we ll gonna have flood of doctors.But i do also want to know are there any good qualities in the crowded of doctors nowadays?Becoz I always been told that qualityis the matter not quantity.May i have ur opinion doc?thx..
Yes, of course! I have mentioned about it in some of my articles. BUT when there is a glut, everyone will be affected no matter what is your quality. That’s the reason why the government is going to introduce a common entrance exam for all overseas medical graduates soon! If you don’t pass the exam, you will never be able to work as a doctor!
Hello doctor. How would be the future of a pharmacy student? How long it takes to become a lecturer in pharmacy? Thank you.
you can become a lecturer immediately after finishing your pharmacy compulsory service.
doctor, is it after degree or masters? How is the job prospect in coming 5 years?
The job prospect for doctors in 5 years is NOT good! I am talking about basic degree but the opportunity to do master’s will be limited and controlled by quota system.
you should be able to get a lecturer’s job after degree. Rarely pharmacist do Master’s
sorry doctor, i meant the job prospect of a pharmacy lecturer. how would it be?
should be OK
Doctor, i notice that the pharmacist graduate from UK are immediately awarded with a Masters degree. is it bcause they hv very high standard or just a normal practice . they dont even have basic degree but jump straight to Masters degree. i am sorry if i am a bit off track. but will appreciate your reply from an experience doctor.
UK revamped their pharmacy programme around late 1990s. From 3 years they made it 4 years and renamed the programme as Master’s in pharmacy, suppose to be 3 years undergraduate and 1 year post graduate.
Hi Doctor, i’m a science graduate from local uni, due to my interest in medic, i choose to study mbbs in segi later this year, but from what you have written, is it not advisable to continue my mbbs in segi? how important is it having the recognition of mbbs in segi by other country? what are the alternatives for those who have unrecognized mbbs but plan to do their specialist, masters, or even practice overseas…..thank you
I think I had answered your questions in my later articles. Please read all my articles under “For Future Doctors ” series. Segi MBBS degree is not even accreditated by MMC yet, what more overseas!
haha….ok, then i’ll take it as a NO to mbbs segi, it’s quite frustrating when it comes to choosing a place to study in mbbs.
I would suggest Monash if you want a well recognised degree especially in Aus/NZ.
Doctor, can u suggest a place to do my post-graduate studies in pharmacy here in malaysia? thank you.
the best is still public universities like UM/UKM etc
Hi there,
There’s nothing much to argue on the article written, but is it possible for you doctor to provide me the sources of all the figures given on the number of outnumbers doctor in Malaysia ? (as per article above)
Thanks
I am not sure which numbers you are talking about. You can check with MMC for the number of new doctors registering every year. Last year alone there were more than 4000 new doctors registering to work in Malaysia. Please read my MMA article which I wrote 5 years ago(under my MMA page): Future of government doctors: Die another day?, where I had given the number of post and occupancy rate of MOH doctors.
Also remember, we have 33 medical schools now, confirmed by The Star recently. more than half of these medical schools have yet to produce their graduates. So, if you assume each produces 150 students, what will be the total number ? plus the doctors from overseas? definately will reach 7-8000/year.
Finally, the government has confirmed that we will achieve a doctor: population ratio of 1: 400 by 2020, 1: 600 by 2016. That’s the reason they impose a moratorium on new medical schools!!
Hi dr,
I am a JPA 2011 scholar for medic, I have a few question:
1. How do you think about IMU twinning programme?
2. Do you think it is worth to study under JPA scholarship? ( because I know that if I get scholarship for under and postgraduate, I have to serve for 20 yrs, but if I pay on my own, I can start my internship in any country as long as my degree is recognised )
3. I know that local master programme is not recognised elsewhere, then what should I do if I intend to be a surgeon? If I take master programme here does that mean I cannot work in other countries?
Thanks
The IMU PMS programme is not even a twinning program. It’s more like doing a credit transfer to one of the partner medical schools. Your medical degree is conferred by the PMS, not IMU.
This is exactly why the JPA scholarship is a total failure.
Look, if you can afford the fees in an overseas institution (>1 million ringgit), you shouldn’t even qualify for the JPA scholarship.
Wow, you haven’t even started medical school and you’re already thinking about surgery. I suggest you go around the wards and ask about the growing number of MOs frustrated by the lack of training opportunities.
Looks like there is some misunderstanding here, I have to clarify that I am from an average-income family, and honestly, my parents can’t afford the fees in an overseas institution without any help( loan or scholarships ). If I have no better option except for paying on my own maybe I have to get loan for a part of my tuition fees…anyway thanks for your info
1) depends on which university you are twinning with.
2) The only benefir under JPA scholarship currently is that the government must give you a job in order to complete your bonding. If you have the money, better go to an internationally recognised unoversity and try to get a job elsewhere.
3) Yes, Master’s is not recognised elsewhere. The other options is to do everything overseas like UK, US or Australia.
sir, since the Master’s is not recognised, is there any other training we can do in Malaysia and is there anyway that I can work in other country as a specialist such as US? And if I manage to get a seat for the Master’s, is there any compulsory service after the programme? thanks for your reply
You nedd to sit for USLME exams in order to work in USA. All Master’s graduates are bonded for 5-7 years at least after graduating.
dear max,
For US, after graduating as a MBBS, you need to take the USMLE (consist of part 1,2 and 3) which you would have to pay of course. After passing part 1 and 2, you need to submit your application as an IMG (international medical graduate) to the ECFMG board and apply for residency in Surgery. Application through the ECFMG board also requires a large sum of money (~10-30k). After application, if the schools are interested, you will need to fly to the US for interviews. Please note that even though you passed USMLE, residency places are not guaranteed. Note: every year more than 50% of the total IMG applicants cannot get a residency match. IMGs fare slightly better chances in family medicine, internal med and peds.
After 3-4 yrs of residency, you will be considered as a general specialist. Then, you need to apply for sub-specialty which will take another 3-4 years. Surgery in the US is very very competitive. Apart from USMLE scores, some schools require prior internship in the US and medical research background and publications.
Hi Dr
A JPA scholar has a 10-year-bond with JPA after his undergraduate study. Will sitting for an exam such as MRCP add more years to the existing bond?
Thanks!
Tao
MRCP is done at your own expanse and thus you will not be bonded extra. However, starting from 2011, you will be bonded 5 years if you do subspeciality.
To Dr pagalavan. Just a question here is MAHSA university college good ? there reason for me to ask you this is because the dean of the medical faculty is claiming that it is The Best private Medical college in Malaysia for teaching facility and students. How far it this true and Hoe good is these types of new medical universities/colleges. Another question is that i have been observing older and established medical universities like MANIPAL MELAKA and Royal Perak Medical College are accepting students from short foundation courses from nirvana and presidents college . I have heard that there are students who have got into manipal less than 3 months from the time they got their SPM results. what is going to happen ?
Every dean from every medical school will say that they are the best. Remember they are all private medical colleges and the student numbers are important in making profit. I can’t comment on their quality as they have not produced their graduates yet. Yes, many private medical colleges have started taking students via dubious foundation courses. This is because the situation has become very competitive among the 33 medical schools. If they don’t lower their standards, they will not get enough students to sustain their medical schools.
Hello doctor, recently I’ve quite a bit of dilemma about whether to do BPharm or MBBS. In your opinion, which will offer a better job prospect as in the salary, working condition and demand in Malaysia as well as other countries?
I now have two choices of University to do my MBBS, which is Segi or Aimst. Will it make any difference when I look for a job if I graduate from Aimst which has already produced more than 10batches of doctors?
The salary and job prospect is not much different between pharmacy and MBBS in government service. Working condition is better for pharmacy.Demand: both getting saturated but atleast as a pharmacist, you can become a lecturer, open shop or work in other countries. Not possible for MBBS as you need to do post grad to become a lecturer and degree need to be recognised in other countries for you to work there.
Segi is new , so can’t comment much. AIMST has produced only 3 batches so far. Average. It does not make any difference where you graduate from as all local degrees are not recognised elsewhere except UM and UKM. Your only option is local job market.
Ic ic, I was told that life as a pharmacist is not as tough as doctors, not only during work, also during studies, is that true?
How to become a lecturer as a pharmacist? So meaning i’ll have to take twinning program? Actually is it that there’s a high possibilities that doctors will be jobless in 5 years time? This only refers to urban area or everywhere else in Malaysia? Is it very difficult to get into postgrad?
I was planning to do pharmacy at Monash. Do u have any comments regarding monash or i should do it at elsewhere? I’m actually planning to work overseas.
Yes.
After graduating you can apply for a lecturer post in any university but you must be keen in teaching and doing research.
Yes, doctors can become jobless. It does not matter urban or rural areas because you cannot practise as a doctor withour completing housemanship.
Yes, it will be very difficult to get postgrad post soon.
If I am not mistaken pharmacy degree from Monash is recognised in Australia and New Zealand. Furthermore, pharmacy is not like medicine where you need recognition by medical council of other countries. Very much easier to get a job elsewhere as long as there are vacant post.
Also, doctor.. Could you recommend some of the unis that are ok for Bpharm?
I cannot afford to do twinning program due to some financial program.
Also, I would like to know, what are the demand for court doctors and forensic scientist? I was told after graduating as doctor, these two are alternatives. And my friend was not convinced by what Doctor has mentioned above. She said the students after our generation do not want to study MBBS anymore, is it true?
She also told me that her friends who graduated said there are loads of work to do as housemen because the seniors does not want to do, which contradicts with what Doctor has said about housemen having nothing to do. Also, is it like almost impossible to get into postgrad or there is a possibility, say 50 percent? If I cannot get into postgrad meaning i’ll have to work in that hospital for the rest of my life or there are alternatives?
Monash should be OK.
Court doctors is very much at it’s infancy in Malaysia. In fact there are not many universities offering this programme. If I am not mistaken, UIA and UKM do offer this course. Their job is mainly to assisst the lawyers in medico-legal issues and for enforcement of laws concerning medical doctors.
You mean forensic pathologist? In Malaysia, forensic pathologist can only work in government hospitals. Don’t get carried away by CSI etc because what you see on TV does not happen here. Here, you will be spending all your time in mortuary. Hardly any scene of the crime visit!
Yes, future generation may not be interested in doing medicine just like in US and UK simply because the litigation rate will be too high for any doctor to practise good medicine. However, when you say future generation , the question is When ????? For me it will be 30-50 years down the line in Malaysia and NOT the next 10 years obviously. However, the rate the number of new doctors are being produced currently, jobless doctors will become a reality in less than 5 years. The MOH is expecting 6000 new doctors this year !! remember almost 50% of the medical schools in Malaysia are yet to produce their graduates. I exect the number to hit 8000-10000 in the next 5 years. The government wil not be able to support this amount of doctors.
It depends on where you practise. If you are a good houseman, you will want to do everything to learn as much as possible. If you are a lazy doctor, you won’t bother doing anything! If you do visit any hospital, please pay attention to these and you will realise that many wil be just sitting and doing nothing and the good ones will be doing everything!
This year, only 800 Master’s post has been allocated. The number will increase to 1000 by 2015. Total number of graduates this year is 6000, up t0 8000-10000 by 2015. Assuming everyone applies for Master’s, the chances for you to get a post is about 10-20% only.
You will remain as chronic MO and you can request to move to other hospitals, klinik kesihatan or resign!
Yay, we’ll finally match Bangladesh in terms of doctors produced!!!
http://www.newstoday.com.bd/index.php?option=details&news_id=22754&date=2011-03-16
Let’s see how well the system is going to turn out…
Bangladesh producing 10 000 doctors for a population of 156 million and we are producing the same number for 27 million!!
To Mun Yee:
Since you’re keen on working overseas and you’re also considering Monash as a choice, I thought you might want to know about the current oversupply of pharmacy graduates in Australia. See, the reality is, most pharmacy students, in Australia at least, are med and dent rejects (and mostly Asian too). Australia, too, has been riding the “healthcare professional shortage” bandwagon for far too long; so what you end up with is a generation of frustrated graduates who feel like they’ve been conned.
I think this article written by a pharmacy student in Australia sums up the situation nicely:
http://www.medinoz.com/2011/07/14/choking-pharmacy-into-submission-ufc-style/
“In a downward spiral it seems, the pharmacy retail industry is losing its grip on the professionalism it once used to own. More and more pharmacists are being paid less and less, job satisfaction appears to be reducing, and jobs are getting harder to come by.”
And why?
“There are now over 16 or 17 pharmacy schools pumping out graduates annually, almost a threefold increase from a decade ago.”
Oh and if you’re still not convinced, have a read through this forum thread:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1514268
So that’s only for Australia or everywhere else?? What about Singapore?
Then can u list some examples of jobs that are needed here in Malaysia as well as overseas? I believe in all fields, students are overwhelming everywhere else.
The reason why I didn’t want to pick MBBS because I’m going to go into just another local private uni. So, there’s a big possibility that I will not have a job in the coming years when i graduate.
Also, I would like to know, what are the demand for court doctors and forensic scientist? I was told after graduating as doctor, these two are alternatives. And my friend was not convinced by what Doctor has mentioned above. She said the students after our generation do not want to study MBBS anymore, is it true?
She also told me that her friends who graduated said there are loads of work to do as housemen because the seniors does not want to do, which contradicts with what Doctor has said about housemen having nothing to do. Also, is it like almost impossible to get into postgrad or there is a possibility, say 50 percent? If I cannot get into postgrad meaning i’ll have to work in that hospital for the rest of my life or there are alternatives?
Well, for starters, Australia is desperately in need of miners, mining engineers and pretty much to do with the mining industry. Remuneration is fairly good, but then again you’d have to take into account the risks that come with such a job.
Hello doctor, recently I’ve quite a bit of dilemma about whether to do BPharm or MBBS. In your opinion, which will offer a better job prospect as in the salary, working condition and demand in Malaysia as well as other countries?
I now have two choices of University to do my MBBS, which is Segi or Aimst. Will it make any difference when I look for a job if I graduate from Aimst which has already produced more than 10batches of doctors?
Doctor,
May i know what’s the difference to do twinning program for pharmacy and not doing it then? Is it that after doing twinning, the certificate will be masters?
Will it affect me when I come out to look for jobs here and other countries?
What about doing it at Taylor’s?
Also, could u explain a bit about what is MRCP and what is it for? Is it like postgrad?
I think you need to take your own initiative and read what has already been written in the blog instead of expecting to be spoon fed with information. MRCP has already been explained many times in detailed. I feel that it is better for you to train and practice in Malaysia since you have the spoon feeding mentality. In fact, you can’t even make up your mind on whether to do MBBS or Bpharm or whatever. If you can’t even make up your mind on that, I suggest you forget about doing MBBS altogether. On top of that, your motivation to do MBBS or Bpharm seems to be socially or financially driven, if that is true, I don’t think you should do MBBS either because you will have hell of a time trying to complete it.
As for HO who says that there are loads of work to do, clearly they do not understand the definition of ‘loads of work’. Every grade of doctors from MO onwards will agree that HO no longer has ‘loads of work’. I suggest you spend a month at night in an emergency department in a teaching hospital, especially on weekend nights to understand what is the meaning of ‘loads of work’. Since you live in PJ, the trauma centre at UMMC would be a very good place to go to.
On looking for jobs, jobs don’t just miraculously land on your laps be it locally or abroad. Even if you have a PhD, you still need to fight it out with others, therefore the process of shortlisting and interviews. So don’t expect somebody to come knocking on your door offering you RM1 million per annum simply because you qualified with a Bpharm, MBBS or whatever.
Regarding working overseas, I don’t know what is your primary intention on working abroad, but life is not all better. By going overseas, you must be prepared to make a lot of sacrifices and be mentally very tough, if not, you will end up struggling, being homesick and ultimately be depressed. I have seen many friends who ended up like that, even when some of them were working in places as close as Singapore. Honestly, I don’t see that it is suitable for you since you appear very much to me as a daddy’s girl. In Malaysia, at least you will still manage a lot of things by virtue of being a citizen. When you go abroad, to start with, you must be able to convince your employers why you deserve that post over their own grads because in order to employ you, they need you to have a visa, which is much of a hassle. Don’t ever think Singapore is always an alternative either. Let me give you some insight. When I finished my MBBS almost 4 years ago, Singhealth was so aggressive in getting their citizens who grad in the UK to return that they run roadshows several times a year and maintained a permanent presence in the UK to facilitate the transfer of their grads back to Singapore. Today, they don’t even bother to contact their own citizens doing MBBS in UK at all, tells you something about their job market being saturated. As for pharmacists, every ward will need a few doctors, but every ward will only need one pharmacist, so don’t even think of finding a job in Singapore with a Bpharm would be a stroll in the park, especially when your Bpharm is not from somewhere highly reputable.
I think you should think carefully what you really like to do as a career and forget about high salaries and things like that. Frankly speaking, if you work hard enough, you will be successful in any profession. On the other hand, if you continue to expect to be spoon fed, even if you have MBBS or Bpharm be it locally or abroad, you will struggle to progress.
Pls read my posting on “step by step approach in doing specialty in medicine” under for future doctors page.
“…if you continue to expect to be spoon fed, even if you have MBBS or Bpharm be it locally or abroad, you will struggle to progress.”
Well said
No, masters is totally a postgraduate degree. Twinning programme depends on how you do it. Some may graduate from the oversease university and obtain the degree from there. It might be better recognised elsewhere. Taylor’s was good before but not sure about pharmacy
Anaes SHO,
Excuse me! Should I take that as an criticize or an advice?? If you want to talk about spoon feeding, I think you should be telling that to ALMOST all of the students who attend tuition classes for every subjects every day and attend all the seminars given by the tuition centers before exams thinking that they’ll get some tips before PMR, SPM or whatever. But I am definitely NOT one! And not daddy’s girl as well! From primary school up until now, I study everything on my own WITHOUT any help from my family as my parents are not well educated as all of my friends’ parents. Also, I don’t believe that opportunities will come by knocking at my door, and that’s why I DON’T believe and in fact wont attend those seminars.
Do you really think that I cannot decide or don’t know what I want to do for degree? Maybe you’re just like anyone else who comes from a rich family, but I am NOT! Think about having your parents selling the house we’re currently staying in just to let you study what you want! It is a MUST for me to think again and again! If I come out not having a job, who’s gonna take care of them? Where are they going to live at? I have to work part time during holidays unlike many other friends of mine who don’t!
I want to go overseas, because I think that there will be more opportunities out there than just being in Malaysia. I’ve been staying out there during my foundation studies and I know the feeling of being homesick and all.
Anyways, thanks for your information….
Well, I can only judge you based on what you said here. For somebody who claims to be independent and pro-active, you clearly haven’t done your homework, or perhaps you did but could not interpret your findings properly. You don’t need to compare with others just to proof that you are independent.
If your family situation is as you said, I strongly suggest you do not do MBBS. It is hard enough to do MBBS without the need to worry about family finances, it is a gigantous feat to do it with those issues in mind. And who is to guarantee that you will pass everything 1st time round. What if you are required to repeat semesters and years ? Have you thought about it ? If finances is that important to you, why don’t you think of something else such as banking or accountancy ? In fact, Huskies dropped you a bone by saying miners. The courses are shorter, hence the cost also lower, and these people have much better job prospects. My sister is an accountant and she earns 4 times what I earn, but it took her 10 years to get there. Working as a doctor for another 6 years will not get me anywhere near that figure.
If you think that the healthcare industry overseas is a greener pasteur, then you are really in for a shock. Your believes has to be backed up by statistics. Have you even bother to look up on employment of healthcare professionals abroad ? Everyone knows that it is getting harder for healthcare professionals to find jobs, let alone decent paying ones. And with a qualification from Malaysia which is pretty much not recognised anywhere else (face it! only a very minority of our current local degrees are recognised abroad), can you really guarantee that you will get a job by moving abroad with your MBBS or Bpharm ? There is a very real chance that you will end up like the many Indian (I meant those from India, not those from Malaysia) doctors who took PLAB to get to UK, only to discover that there aren’t jobs. They used their live savings just to take that exam because they believed that going overseas is a greener pasteur and ended up stuck in UK without a job and without money. Of course, this is only in the healthcare industry, I can’t say that moving abroad in other industries will not get you a bigger salary.
Just to add to what Anaes SHO has mentioned regarding working overseas as a doctor – you’ll have to deal with prejudices that local patients might have against you.
Unless you can somehow fake an accent and pretty much transform yourself into a true-blooded Aussie (for example, could be British/American/Canadian), people will know you’re foreign-trained because almost none of their own citizens read medicine abroad. Especially so since high profile cases such as the one involving a certain Dr. Patel aka Dr. Death in Australia – foreign-trained doctors now receive heavy scrutiny from both the media and the public. Admittedly, some have been unfairly discriminated against in spite of their immense contribution to rural medicine in Australia. So, it’s not necessarily smooth sailing all the way in a foreign country.
http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/investigations/8269333/aca-health-investigation
Watch this report and if you think you can handle this, then by all means go ahead
Actually, I’ve quite done my homework about the course and the job prospect overseas as well as in Malaysia. I know that health sciences courses aren’t gonna bring me anywhere with a good pay. Just want to double check with everyone to make sure that people are not only just spreading rumors like some who are not even in the field or inexperience people. Of course I know accounts and finance will offer better pay. In fact, my parents mentioned about it before as well. But then again, I just with to work with something that I at least have interest in instead of just simply choosing a course and end up regretting.
I’ve thought about all that you’ve mentioned actually, fyi. And that’s what I’m worrying about. But I believe to be a doctor, one must be confident with oneself?
It is always good to choose what you are really interested in but you need to know the reality on the gorund. Furthermore, many students are not aware of the various courses that are available and hot in demand currently and thus they never develope the interest in the first place! I blame our education system which never exposes our students to the job market/propect.
Speaking of interest, I really think that you should spend some time in a busy A+E department, especially in resus on weekend nights if you really want to study medicine, since you are taking such a huge financial commitment in pursuing your interest. On a personal level, I would not agree on selling your home to finance your medical education, the reasons for that has already been explain by Dr Paga somewhere in the blog, but ultimately, that is your choice to make. If you are keen on health sciences, you might want to consider physiotherapy. They earn good money, and I believe we are still short of them.
Confidence is one thing, reality is another. Otherwise, everyone will just sail through med school and nobody would have failed. The truth is it is one of the toughest course at undergrad level, and rightly so. Afterall, you are being granted a license to make direct decisions on somebody’s life, it is only fair that you have been trained to a sufficiently high level to be granted one.
I don’t know how did you perform in your PMR, SPM and Pre-U, but school life in Malaysia is so easy because the standard is so low that good performance in school doesn’t mean good performance in med school. Med school is a whole new ball game altogether.
Regardless, I hope that you think about it carefully and make a decision that you will not regret in the future. For your info, I regretted doing MBBS and still regret being a doctor, that is part of the reason why I ended up doing anaes. .
Hello Dr,
Besides working as a doctor or going for specialist after graduating, are there any other alternative jobs that I can involve myself in? For example, maybe pharmacy?
If I do not my housemanship or do not get a seat for it, are there any other alternatives that i can look into?
Thank you in advance.
Pls read my article on “What if…………” Under “for Future Doctors” page.
Hi doctor,
Do you think going to a reputable university is important for medicine student? Or the results are more important? Meaning if there is a student from a not-so-reputable uni with good results, and a student from a reputable uni but moderate results, which of them will be more preferred in terms of employment? Since that there might be a chance that there will be no seats for housemen in the future.
Will going to a more reputable university make a difference? If not, then why so many are looking to go to IMU, so on and so forth?
Thanks in advance.
The main advantage of going to IMU is that their overseas twinning programmes lead to degrees that are internationally recognised. This opens the door to the global village with greater flexibility and opportunities for one’s future career.
In the developed nations, medical and surgical career advancement is for the most part not decided by cables but by merit. Even those with cables still have to have accrued enough on their CV to justify their selection for advancement up the training ladder.
It depends on what you mean by reputable university. UM is a reputable university but it is not recognised internationally ( use to be recognised till 1988), except for Singapore. Some universities from UK, Australia, India are recognised internationally. Of course, it is better to graduate from these internationally recognised universities in order for you to be able to work in many countries. So, in case you can’t get a job in Malaysia, you can still apply to other countries where your degree is recognised. Even for IMU, their local 5 year programme is of no use. BUT their twinning programme are worthwhile as they are from internationally recognised universities. Of course they cost much more.
To me, if you have good entry qualifications to start with, and have interest in medicine, you will graduate anyway. So, being a graduate itself may not make any difference as most low cost universities have 100% passing rate. Some do not even rate the students as 1st/2nd or 3rd class. So, how are we going to diffrentiate you guys? The only other option will be a common entrance exam which was proposed but was scraped due to political reasons. But I heard that you may need to apply for a job soon after your housemanship, which will be done on contract basis.
Ic ic… So if I have a choice like Taylor’s or Segi UC, it’s the same whichever I choose?
Yes, but your degree will only allow you to work in Malaysia and no where else! Both this uni are new and yet to produce any graduates. In fact MMC is yet to accreditate them. Without MMC accreditation, you can’t work even in Malaysia.
Thank you for helping me to clear my doubts, doctor.
I’ve seen your post regarding doctors will have to apply for MOs after HOs. So what do you think will be the criteria that they will look into in terms of giving MO seats?
Likely your performance as Housemen and availability of post. Being in Malaysia, unlikely it will be transparent.
Yea I do get what you mean regarding the transparency. What about HOs? They will look at results or where I graduated from?
Not at the moment but not sure about the future!
So the only way out for people like me are taking entrance exam from other countries or exams like MRCP?
Yes but again passing the exam does not guarantee a post either. All depends on luck!
Good afternoon Dr,
Thanks for explaining the misconceptions.
I am currently studying AUSMAT pre-u course in a college. I do not know if I should take Pharmacy or Medicine in uni. I wish to study in UK too, this is why i am considering twinning programme in IMU for Medicine course or Nottingham for Pharmacy course (I heard Nottingham is famous of its pharmacy course)
I’ve heard from my friends that pharmacist’s job is boring although it is rewarding. Personally, I find medicine an interesting course, but i am not a hardworking student and I am afraid Medicine will be too hectic for me.
Is medicine course really that bad – no social life, have to study everyday?
Can you draw out pros and cons of being a pharmacist and a doctor?
What is the difference between internship and housemanship?
Is residency same as internship?
Do I have to take up Master course and then Specialist/PhD if i wanted to be a pediatrician? Or i can just decide on my specialist during my residency?
Please clear up my doubts ASAP. I’ll appreciate it a lot. Thank you!
Please read all my other posts in this blog. You can find your answers. Housemanship and internship are the same. Malaysia do not practise residency type training. Residency is not internship. You need Master’s to become a specialist. You can find all the answers if you read all my postings.
Dear Dr Pagalavan,
I am final year med student; studying in Australia for the past 6 years. I have been offered a job in a reputable metropolitan health institute in Melbourne. Since the number of international candidates offered internship in Melbourne has significantly reduced this year (due to the sudden surge of medical graduates in Melbourne from the 3 unis – Melbourne, Monash, Deakin), receiving this offer as an international student is a great privilege.
Although I would really want to accept the job offer, part of me still wants to return to Malaysia badly. I have been reading most of your articles and posts on this blog….seems to me that most people would prefer to work overseas. However, I was just wondering..is there not anything that can be done? Everyone fears for their own career prospect and future and how working here would be ‘unimaginable’ because of the constant pressure of being oppressed by the unjust system. I really want to work in Malaysia and yes, most of the posts on this blog makes me scared. I know that I cannot change anything with the Malaysian healthcare system but I still feel that a difference can be made if we stick to each other and work towards it. Or am I just being naive? I am confused as to what I should do with the offer..should I accept it and stay in Australia OR should I return HOME and risk a tough life?
Dear Rain, congratulations on being offered internship in Melbourne at a time when jobs are in short supply even for Oz citizens, let alone IMG’s.
If you are government sponsored, then you have an obligation and responsibility to return to Malaysia as soon as possible to serve your tax-paying countrymen who bankrolled your education.
If you are independantly sponsored then I would urge you not to waste the fortune which has been spent for your overseas degree in returning to Malaysia and thereby shutting your potential gateway to the global village.
For many, there are strong personal reasons to want to return to Malaysia. If these are the major consideration for you, then go home.
But in reading Dr Pagal’s blog, you will already be aware of the crumbling medical system back home with too many junior doctors and insufficient postgrad training posts which are increasingly of poor quality. That said, unless you have the right skin colour, your probability of getting into a postgrad training programme is remote anyway.
If you stay on in Oz, you will have opportunity for world class training, better working conditions, good salary and a real chance for career advancement based on merit and diligent application.
The choice is really yours to make, but I would urge you to consider embracing the global village, daunting as the prospect may seem. The world is now a very small place and there are so many opportunities and adventures to be had.
For all of the doom and gloom in Dr Pagal’s blog pages, medicine and surgery remain a truly rewarding career for those who have the interest and chose it for the right reasons. Find what you love and chase it.
I wish you all the best.
Oh, I forgot to add.. you are being naive if you think the problems with the healthcare system in Bolehland are going to resolve within the next quarter century. It is about to get a whole lot worse and there is no end in sight.
Sorry to be a nihilist.
Thank you for your advice, Jon J. I appreciate it. I am self-sponsored student; so I am free to make any decision.
O..don’t worry; I am not offended. I knew that anyway.
If you are a self sponsored student then stay back in Australia and complete your postgraduate studies.
Many like you who came back eventually left . The system here is just too complex to change.
Thank you for your advice. I am accepting the job offer.
Hai Doctor,
i’m 1st year medic student, after reading this i become scared, what should i do. Do i need to continue the study in medic @ just change my course.. but the things why i choose medic because i really want to be a doctor and its not because of the salary or movie addict or something… please tell me what steps should i do.
Pls read all the entries in my blog especially under “For future doctors” page. If you are willing to go throu all the frustration and stress that is coming your way and really have passion for medicine, then go ahead. BUT life is not going to be easy!
Hi Dr Pagalavan.
I just finish spm about a month ago. A friend of ine introduce me to your blog after i mention to her about my intention in doing medicine. After reading your blog, i trully agree with you that doing medicine and working in Malaysia, the pay will start to decrease and there are too many doctor’s right now. But i feel for me doing Medicine its something interesting and getting know more about how to cure someone. My family is literally full of doctor’s but this is not the main reason why i choose to do medecine. So doctor, could let me know any recognised university to my degree after doing my a-level’s
hello Dr. i am an spm leaver. so the first start to become a doctor is to take what course? as in asasi sains or asasi perubatan in local university. what is your opinion?
asasi sains and asasi perubatan are the same.
Hi Dr Pagalavan,
I hv just received offer from Monash University Sunway Campus for MBBS. Meanwhile, I have also been short-listed for the IMU-PMS programme. Just to say that I hv got both offers, which would be a better option? Tq sir.
Depends on what you intend to do in the future. Migrating? then MOnash will be a better choice but beware that Australia may stop taking foreign doctors soon. Even then, you will have a better chance to go to Australia with this degree.
Well, i have no intention to migrate 2 Aust 4 now…but in terms of quality of education and recognition of the degree which would b a better option sir ? coz currently my options r monash sunway, IMU twinning and manipal twinning. But i am having a difficult time here choosing the right uni.. so just wanna seek ur advice on this matter sir.. thx a lot sir ..
Manipal twinning is not recognised anywhere. Monash is recognised in Australia/NZ.
IMU twinning is better depending on which university you are going to graduate from but it will be more expensive.
Thx a lot sir !
sir,, if there is someone that study in taylor university in medic,,would it ok?? what is your opinion??
It is a new college and thus diffcult for me to comment. I do know that the degree is not recognised anywhere.
hello DR…..im a spm leaver n plan study forensic course…can i get a job wit good salary once i fnsh my studies???is tat job highly demand in malaysia compare to doctors?doctors or forensic officers wil do the posmoterm?
The only place where you can get a job for forensic officer is the police department. IN Malaysia, only the police runs the forensic department. Post mortems are conducted by Forensic Pathologist who are doctors. Forensic officers are people who go to the scene, collect evidence and come to a conclusion to complete police investigations. It is still in demand in Malaysia and the police department is setting up CSI centres throughout the country.
thank you dr..
.
hello doc , i just completed my a level with the result of 1B 2Cs and i plan to do pharmacy course so i only have one university to choose which is MAHSA university so may i know whether this university will be recognised by government after i graduated ?
For pharmacy there is no such thing as recognition. As long as it is MQA accreditated.
as long as that university apply to mqa ??
MQA is the qualifications accreditation body for all courses in Malaysia.
the thing is mqa says the entry requirement for degree of pharmacy is 3Bs but mqa doesnt know why MAHSA has the requirement of 3Cs so mqa cant confirm whether this course will be recognised since the first batch of pharmacy hasnt come out yet~
Then, you will have problems.
u mean the recognised part ??
yes
ok~thx for your reply , doc ~
dear doc..
i am very interested in medicine. i had already finished my high school. i got 8a’s in spm and 1b+ that is biology. i need yr advice…please. what do you think?? for yr information, my parents want one of their children to be a doctor…and they are hoping that i can be a doctor. but, i’m afraid i couldn’t make it..
If you are not 100% certain that you want to do medicine, then don’t do it. Medicine is field that involves lifelong studying and reading. Doesn’t mean you get good results in SPM means that you need to take up medicine. If you are doing medicine simply because you want to satisfy your parents’ wish for a doctor in the family, I will advice you not to study medicine. There will come a time when you might regret the decision.
Think what you want to do and not what your parents want you to become! Just because you got good results does not mean you must become a doctor!
Good day, Doctor. I am an undergraduate studying biomedical sciences in UKM. Although I have a general interest in medical sciences, I don’t find doing lab works interesting. I do feel that doctors have a more interesting job compare to scientists. Therefore, I jump on onto the newly founded Perdana University Graduate School of Medicine once I heard about it (and i am accepted, sem starting this sept). I do believe that it’s a good school, considering that it is partnering with JH medical school. May I know what do you think about PUGSOM? Also, considering the “overproduction” of medical doctors in Malaysia now, do you think it’s a good idea to pursue this career? Do you have any advice for me?
Hi Allen,
Are you an undergraduate or a graduate of biomedical science in UKM ? I was told one must have a basic degree (graduated) then only he/she is qualified to apply for this medical course, otherwise have to go for the undergraduate (Ireland) course.
Dear Eddy,
i think Allen is graduated or else he will not be accepted in Perdana Uni.
Dear Allen,
I am sort of your senior but i am medical grad. One of your senior, who graduated last year, from biomedical, pursued his study in medicine in Perdana as well. He seems to enjoy it very much as he posted most of his experiences in Facebook.
But you need to know this, although it is collaborated with John Hopkins, your ultimate degree in medicine is not recognized in John Hopkins itself, not even from our neighbouring countries like Indonesia, Singapore… you can only worked in Malaysia (if only there is SPACE for you.. ). You may argue with me that they say this or that. Honestly this is what we call advertisement. Besides, it is a very new Uni with lack of facilities for teaching. The lack of facilities refers to mannequin, and instruments. They don’t even own a hospital for “experimental learning” among medical students eg UKM owns HUKM and UM owns UMMC. Hence the quality will be doubt. The quality of young doctors already been doubt what else if graduate from such new Uni who don’t even own patients for you to learn with. Again, you may say we will join this and that hospital, but most of MOH hospital won’t allow you to perform procedure on patient, assist in surgery or etc… You are only qualified to become wallpaper or vas… Observe, observe and observe… That is not fun at all without the hands on experience. Once you do it, you will remember for life.
Anyway, if you really, truly, seriously love to become a doctor with “heavy workload, stress, long working hours… xxx” (the young doctors love to say these nowadays, which i think is NON-SENSE), go for it, as I believe with the hard work, persistency, good attitude and the commitment for lifelong learning, even though you are not the best doctors, at least you are among the best. Good luck.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. As I said, the health structure in US and Malaysia is different. Most of the lecturers from US who come here to teach may not even know the difference. Even the students who are now in PUGSOM may not know the reality outside as they think that they are getting the best medical education!
Hi Eddy,
I am graduating this year. One more month to go before i complete this degree. I somehow assume I will graduate without too much trouble. (fingers crossed)
Hi Chin,
Yes, I know Owen. Also, I know that the degree will only be recognized in Malaysia. Haha, I would have enrolled in to medicine of UM or UKM if given the chance, trust me. However, I guess this is my best choice. Thank you for reminding me about the absence of their own hospital, I will have to survive that, then. The quality of PU is also probably…..not as good as UM, UKM. However, I still hope I will be able to be a good doctor in the future.
I wouldn’t say I love being stressful, busy and lack of personal time, but I think I will be able to cope with it. It is the “value” of this job that attracts me, the ability to “do something to help people” ……For now, I want to do that with my life. Thanks for your advice on “hard work, persistency, good attitude and the commitment for lifelong learning”, I will do my best. Thank you.
I presume you are a graduate of biomedical science as only people with basic degree can enroll into PUGSOM. Doctors job may be more interesting on paper but also more stressfull and demanding than other fields. You can read throu my blog for further info. After some time, you will also get bored!
Partnering with JH does not make it a good school automatically. You must understand that JH is just borrowing their curicullum and some lecturers to this university. It is essentially Perdana University degree with NO international recognition. That is the reason I disagree when they put a RM1 million price tag to it. I rather go overseas and get a well recognised degree for the same amount of money. However, I know that JPA is giving full scholarship to everyone accepted into this uni and thus you don’t need to pay anything. Furthermore, being a JPA scholar will guarantee you a job in civil service as you will be bonded. The problem of oversupply will only affect you in your postgraduate studies.
The healthcare structue in US is totally different then Malaysia. Thus, having US based curicullum is not going to do well in Malaysia. The advantage is only the fact that they are recruiting people with basic degree who are more matured and has real interest in medicine
Dr. Paga. I am graduating this year, about one month from now. I do read about doctors being a stressful and demanding job often. However, I dare not say I fully understand what it really means as I have not experienced it yet. It had me worried some time ago. But, I decided to give it a try. Who knows what the future holds? I hope I will turn out well.
Thank you for your advice. Although I will still go for it, I will definitely see this opportunity from a different perspective. I do hope I will perform well in the future.
Dr Pagal:
Partnering with JH does not make it a good school automatically. You must understand that JH is just borrowing their curicullum and some lecturers to this university. It is essentially Perdana University degree with NO international recognition.
But, but…. no, I can’t believe this! Surely not! But.. I thought…
“the university’s opening would send ripples through the region and be a “phenomenal lure””.
This has to be true. It came from the mouth of Najib himself. So it *must* be true.
Good morning Jon,
Is it THAT bad??? The thing is, will I be well prepared with JH’s curriculum? Will I be competent as a medical doctor when I graduated from PUGSOM? Even though though it doesn’t have its own teaching hospital, and it’s new, but the curriculum should works, right?
As I said before, JH curicullum is for US health system which is not suitable for Malaysian healthcare. Furthermore, having a curicullum does not make you a good doctor or make the uni an excellent uni. Almost all medical schools will have an excelent curicullum on “paper”. What is important is the delivery methods and training system.
Trust me, being a good doctor is not about memorising books and listening to lectures. IT is about interviewing patients, examining them and coming to a diagnosis and treatment plan.
Dear Allen,
No harm trying Perdana even though it costs MR 250k per yr, you are not paying for it ! As what Dr Paga had said, 30% of Mara students had failed their medical course in the past (wonder what is the latest statistics?), so if you do not like the course or not good enough for the course, just quit instead of regretting in the future of giving up such good opportunity.
Huskies
“Just to add to what Anaes SHO has mentioned regarding working overseas as a doctor – you’ll have to deal with prejudices that local patients might have against you.
Unless you can somehow fake an accent and pretty much transform yourself into a true-blooded Aussie (for example, could be British/American/Canadian), people will know you’re foreign-trained because almost none of their own citizens read medicine abroad. Especially so since high profile cases such as the one involving a certain Dr. Patel aka Dr. Death in Australia – foreign-trained doctors now receive heavy scrutiny from both the media and the public. Admittedly, some have been unfairly discriminated against in spite of their immense contribution to rural medicine in Australia. So, it’s not necessarily smooth sailing all the way in a foreign country”
Hi Huskies,
You are absolute right. Recently some of my friends complained to me that they were scolded by some Aussie local patients (older ones) like “I don’t understand your accent, and I don’t know why you are here” “Go back to your country, what r you doing here?”, “go back to China!!” (actually not from China) “We don’t need U here”.
[working in australia]
well… i guess it depends on the individual’s accent.
As a native english speaker i struggle to understand some foreign doctors…my colleagues! Dont mean to sound rude but some people just arent very clear when they speak.
Most doctors with have no difficulty communicating with patients.
Personally i’ve never faced that problem….and i dont hear my colleagues complaining about it either.
Those friends I mentioned are not doctors, they are medical students doing clinical years in Aussie U.
i didnt realize that you are a native speaker.
HELLO DR.PAGALAVAN,
I am glad we hav at least one that could actually understand all those complications in medicine besides all those rejoiced moments u hav 2 be a doctor.a great article 4 those who think medical is good cauze of money.it would be a great help from u if u suggest any good Uni that is well recognised in india.i am from malaysia n i’m hoping ang looking forward 2 study in india.ur help will be much appreciated!!! TQS…
Are you talking about medicine? Then Aimst in India is the best. The rest that are listed in the MMC recognition list are OK.
thank you doctor!i will surely hav a look at the MMC recognition list.bye…
As the world paces, as much as the community wants from you all the qualified medical practitioners, i always believe, the extent to which the doctor-wanna-be’s have to offer have been stretched by the same margin too. So, doctor, can you shed some light to me as to what qualities are the medical schools today are looking for as benchmarks while they are sifting through a throng of applicants eager to do medicine in their university? And from a grander scale, what it takes internally to become a practically quality doctor?
Your opinion is very valued. Thanks you doctor, in advance.
Ernie
This is a good article to read about becoming a good doctor http://pagalavan.com/2012/03/28/for-future-doctors-do-you-want-to-be-a-doctor-by-dr-wong-yin-onn/.
Malaysian medical schools got no benchmark as far as I am concerned in a true Malaysian Boleh spirit.
Dear Dr. Pagavalan,
I cannot thank you enough for your brilliant posts regarding the prospects of medical students. It is really heart breaking to witness the country’s healthcare system crumble in fromt of our eyes, with the huge outflow of new graduates flooding the general hospitals to serve housemanship. I look forward to reading more of your posts in the near future. Keep up the good work,
Aspiring doctor
Dear Dr,
I just finished my A levels. If i’m lucky i’ll be starting med school in august. I am doing this for my passion. It is obvious that medicine is not the best money making job so its definitely not for the money. But job security is really important for me. I wanna know that I can do something with what I’ve learned. I will be spending my parents hard earned money going through med school. I wanna know if I will be able to get a job after getting my degree and finishing housemanship.
There is no job in this world which is guaranteed. I can’t promise you anything. By the time you graduate, there will definately be enough doctors. So, you just have to depend on your luck
Dear Dr, after reading your blogpost on the misconceptions of being a medical doctor, i have doubts on becoming a medical doctor. Based on our current economic situation and your medical knowledge, do you think it is more advisable to study DDS or MBBS. Im interested in both of them, but cant decide on either one. Thank you very much
you mean BDS? IN 5 years time, anything can happen if you are talking about money. There are also many students doing dentistry currently but the situation is not as bad as medicine.
Hi
Hi doctor,
Your reports are sending shivers down my spine. My son (who has always wanted to be a doctor) has just started his MBBS. He was undecided between MBBS and BDS . All of us finally decided that he should pursue MBBS.
He has just started the july intake.
My question is :
1. Is dentistry a better option in job security wise?
2. Which would be more time demanding when he starts working (Dentist or GP)?
3. What is the salary difference between the two?
4. In private practices – who has a better demand?
Thanking you in advance for your reply.
No job is going to be secured in the future. I know many are also jumping into dentistry which may produce overflow of dentist as well but it is much easier to open a clinic for dentistry. Overall, the rules and registration is much more strict for medicine.
Both GPs and Dentist have to run the clinic from 9am till 10pm daily. You can’t run away from it as it is a business and it is getting very competitive out there. However, patient demands and expectations are very much less for a dentist. How many emergencies do you have to deal with as a dentist? Furthermore, the one time investment for dentist is less compared to GP. Most of a dentist work are “hand” work rather then medications. You get paid for your hand skills unlike GPs who depend on medications most of the time.
In government service, the salary difference is just RM 104/month.
Private hospitals do not hire dentist same as how they do not hire medical officers except for emergency departments.
hello doctor, do u think nu med in malaysia is eatablished for the mbbs program?
Their first batch is in 4th year. Thus can’t comment much on their products yet. However, I still feel they will be better then some of the other medical schools in Malaysia since they follow the same established curriculum as in UK with the same exams.BUT, NuMED degree in Malaysia is NOT recognised elsewhere and thus you will not be able to work anywhere else other than Malaysia.
thanks..if nu med compare to imu?
IMU more established and if you do their. Twining programme, better.
Heard from reliable source that a survey was done on all HOs (graduated from all local and overseas universities) on their housemanship performance, IMU was ranked as one of the top three universities on the list of best performance/category.
if in case a Malaysia medical college grad wants to work overseas – Singapore, New Zealand – how do we go about it?
You need to sit and pass the entrance exam of the respective country. Please contact the respective medical councils. However, passing the exam do not guarantee you a job.
If I can’t get into IMU-PMS and Monash Sunway, what are the best options that I have in terms of University? Can I still sit for the entrance exams in countries like Australia if I do a degree that is only recognized in Malaysia? I heard it’s possible as long as the degree is recognized by by IMED. Also I am non-bumi. Do I have a chance of doing speciality training later if I’m still in Malaysia? I know that you’re a doctor not education advisor we should be posting something more serious here but I don’t really know who to ask. Sorry.
Yes, you can sit for the entrance exam as long as your university is listed in WHO listings. However, passing this exam does not guarantee you a post.
Speciality training for surgical fields are going to be tough in the future due to limited post. You still have MRCP/MRCPCH and MRCOG as an alternative if you are interested in being a physician, paediatrician and Obstetrician.It is the same in other countries as well. I know many from UK and Australia returning back as they could not get a training post there.
hai doc
i am dr habeeb from india basically from kerala.i finished my mbbs and MD internal medicine one year back.i saw a ad in news paper calling for doctors in one of the medical colleges in mal.i am currently working ina central goverment institute here.what about the working condition and salary in mal. is it wise to migrate to mal. thank you
If your MD is only 1 year, likely MMC may not recognised you as a specialist in Malaysia ( they need 5 years). Thus getting a job in university as a clinical lecturer may be difficult.
The working condition and salary varies from one uni to another. It can be bad and good. Some pay very low with poor working condition and that’s the reason they can’t get enough locals working for them.
Migrating ?? I would not recommend. It will take more then 7 years for you to get even a PR status (use to be 10 years).
hi doc, pls help me out here.
i have intentions of studying medicine (mbbs) in MAHSA university college. but for noww i am just doing my foundation in the same MAHSA. please advise me, cos this your article has discouraged me a lot, no shred of hope left! do i go ahead and do the mbbs in mahsa? is the degree or certificate recognised internationally or locally or both? by the way, i am an international student, from Nigeria to be precise… is there any hope of job with this certificate? tho i have no real intentions of practising in nigeria, but just expecting the worse, am i safe studying mbbs in MAHSA? practically, i intend practising in the uk with the certificate. i need a crystal clear answer please, everyone is beating around the bush whenever i inquire aout this.
thank you for your time. i must commend your efforts in saving our generation. it is highly appreciated
If I may, Dr. Paga.
“is the degree or certificate recognised internationally or locally or both?”
I can definitely tell you that you will not be able to practice anywhere else with that certificate except Malaysia.
“practically, i intend practising in the uk with the certificate.”
Not that it is not possible, but rather impractical. The statement above being the main reason. First, it is not recognized internationally. Second, you have to sit for an entrance exam in order to be eligible to work there. Third, UK graduates themselves are finding it hard to get a training post. Therefore, being an overseas graduate, it will be even a greater challenge for you to get a job there.
Unfortunately, I have to give you more bad news! MAHSA medical degree is NOT recognised elsewhere. It is not even listed in the WHO directory which will even make it more difficult to sit for any country’s entrance exam.
Malaysia do NOT provide housemanship post to foreigners unless you are married to a Malaysia. Even then, with the current glut of doctors and worsening situation in the next few years, the chances of you getting a job in Malaysia will be almost NIL.
You can’t go to UK to work without passing the PLAB exam. Even then, with the current immigration laws, you will NOT get a job in UK to do internship.
If I were you, I would not bother going to MAHSA. The best option for you will be either to go to Australia or UK directly.
Dr.Paga,which is the best university in Russia for Medicine, in your point of view?
I can;t say for sure but Moscow Medical Academy is better, from what I gather
dear doc, i would like to hear an opinion from you… i got jpa scholarships to study doctor of medicine in Lincoln University College. your article about doctor nowadays open my eyes about how hard and passion to be a “real” doctor. yet, i love the job because its help people everyday and its kindness even they are tired and stressful . i don’t mind about the salary i got. but your statement about doctor is pack full during 2016 shred my hope and i afraid if i will end up working at the restaurant with doctor degree. jpa does said that i must work 10 years with MOH. it is promising ?. i mean, with lot of doctor to come in future, the gov’ment eventually will change their system. i kind of puzzling over here.
please comment me if you got time
Firstly I am surprised that JPA even sponsor you to study at LUC!! LUC is yet to be accreditated by MMC.
Being a JPA scholars means, you will be bonded with the government for 10 years. THis means the government must provide you with a job. Your problems will only come during post graduate education.
LUC is the college that was involved with the ‘Ukranian medical programs’ scandal. It basically made those unrecognized programs as their own and charged RM100k extra compared to the original cost of completing the entire program in Ukraine …
… and these are not even a twinning programs.
From that scandal I came to a conclusion that LUC started the program for the sole purpose of making money and was hell-bent on doing so, it neither had the manpower nor the resources to start their own medical program in Malaysia and had to resort to medical programs abroad for that purpose – even if the programs are not recognizes by MMC…
Fortunately this issue was raised and they had to call-off their ‘medical program’ in Ukraine… alas… they have started their medical program in Malaysia anyway…
guess where most of the money will come from?
Ever since the failure of the ’5 years freeze’ on new medical colleges, quite a number of new medical programs have been introduced by existing IPTS, the latest was by University college Shahputra…
I have personally asked the former DG of Health (Dr.Ismail Merican) on the freeze on his visit to Bangalore in 2010…. much to my uni’s president displeasure… heheh…
It is very unfortunate that he is no longer our DG of health…
(Search YouTube for – MMC Visit 2010 IMS)
Some of the existing IPTS even run multiple medical programs to maximize profit…
PTPTN and MARA have been the major source of their income – competition for student intake is fierce amongst these IPTS… so much so that many have started their very own ‘foundation programs’ which in my POV is a method to bypass the more strict entrance requirement set by MMC for other standard pre-u qualifications (eg: STPM, A-Levels, etc)…
It is indeed surprising that nowadays JPA scholars are sent study medicine in IPTS that hasn’t even got MMC’s recognition yet… and in your case… LUC!
I guess money from PTPTN and MARA coffers isn’t enough for all the medical IPTS in Malaysia… JPA… its your turn now… cough up the dough!
I think someone should write a book entitled – ‘The Business of Medical Schools’ etc
thank for giving the opinion. and yet, thank for the article you wrote. it open up my eyes what doctor is. thank again
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dear dr.
thank you very much for your kind effort for delivering the right information to all the student who sought ur help. u have open up my eyes as well. a part of me still want to do medicine although im currently doing my bachelor in forensic science. reading ur articles and all the post makes me to fill that i am on the right path. thank you
Forensic science is an interesting field with a lot of demand.
Dear Dr,
I am given two options to study MBBS like Monash Malaysia and Numed, which one would u recommend? Numed intake would be in September while Monash intake would be in February. For my situation, I would graduate faster if I choose to study in Numed. I was told that seniority is important in the medical field. Is that true ? Would I hold a greater advantage if I were to graduate earlier?
Both are OK but NuMed got better facilities. However NuMed degree is not recognized elsewhere where as Monash is recognized in Australia and NZ.
I see. Thank you, Doctor.. And I hope to do my postgraduate study overseas in the future, if possible. So btw these 2 institutions,which one will provide me greater advantage?
Monash will be preferred BUT looking at the scenario in Australia, the chances for you to get a job there as intern is very very slim. If you don’t do your internship there, you can not get registered in Australia.
Dear doc,
I am a prospective student from pakistan, currently finishing my Alevels. I want to apply to Malaysia for MBBS for august intake. If I apply to NUMed, will i get the degree which is the same as the one awarded in the UK branch? Secondly i am considering an MBBS twinning programme offered by IMU. If i go for that, will the degree awarded be of the partner medical school (eg: Aberdeen), or will it be of IMU itself only?
Lastly, what is your opinion on the twinning programme offered by Penang Medical College? Is PMC a good option ? Thanking you in advance, please reply doc
I think the more practical question is would you get a job for HOship? I don;t think you got any chance in Malaysia consider the glut of doctors here.
I believe Dr. Paga has mentioned a couple of times that NuMed Malaysia is not recognized elsewhere except Malaysia. And as a foreigner, you would not be able to get to get an internship posting in Malaysia despite carrying an MBBS degree which is recognized by Malaysia itself.
The better option is to go for the IMU twinning program where the degree is awarded by the partnered medical school instead of IMU. If you’re lucky, you’ll be able to work in the country in which you graduate from.
Not sure about PMC, but from I know many years back, the first part of the course is done in Ireland and the remaining clinical years are done in Malaysia. The degree is awarded by PMC, so I believe it’s not a good choice for you either, based on the same logic which I’ve stated earlier. Then again, this is what I knew many years back. Things may have changed now.
Th answers to your questions are found in this blog.
NuMed offers the same degree as NuMed UK BUT it is not recognised elsewhere. Even if GMC recognises it, the chances of you getting a job in UK is almost NIL due to immigration laws etc. Please read here
IMU twinning program will be a better option for you. Since you will do the clinical years overseas and graduate from the twinning university, the degree is the same and well recognised.
PMC’s clinical years are done in Malaysia and thus it is only recognised in Ireland. However, looking at the scenario at Ireland, you are unlikely to get a job there
Dear doc,
Im a SPM leaver and looking forward to pursue MBBS in Manipal University, India. How about the recognisation doc? Is the degree from this medical school in india is recognised in US? Are all the degrees from any medical colleges in india is recognised in US? Studying in Russia or India. Which is a better option?
NO degree is recognised in US. All graduates will need to sit for the USMLE exams before applying for a job. NO guarantee that you will get a job in US after passing USMLE exam.
Whether Russia or India, depends on the medical school.
Thanks doctor. I still haven’t make up mind on my future undertakings. I have the passion for medicine but then i’m quite worried of the overflowing medical graduates every years. I afraid if the demand for doctors reduces in future.
I have the passion for medicine but still money matters. Engineering sectors seems more profitable.The cost of getting an engineering degree from US is almost same as studying medicine in local private universities. Engineers are paid well nowadays. If we compare studying medicine and petroleum engineering, which degree is more ‘worth’ doc? I mean in terms of salary.
You must understand that doctors in private sector are not paid a salary. You are self employed and running a business. That’s the reason it is getting tough out there, to survive.
Petroleum engineers are well paid but you need to travel a lot. Sometimes you will offshore etc and even be sent to other countries.
hye dr i have browse through all those comments regarding mbbs through ur site.pls clear my confusion as i have completed my diploma pharmacy n i wish 2 pursue mbbs.job security is really worrying me a lot after reading all these comments…i have a great interest in doing mbbs n i plan to do it in masterskill university which has a twinning with chetinaad university india.pls give me a suggestion on wat should i do sir….
Wow, you are really committed to become doctor. But beware, before you graduate there will be at least 30k new doctor in the market. Go ahead if you are really passionate towards this medical career but I would strongly advise against borrowing money to complete this medical course. You will probably need at least 400k inclusive of your living cost and to pay back this loan will probably need 10-15 years before you can even build your life.
First, check with MMC website whether you have the qualification to do medicine over here http://mmc.gov.my/v1/docs/MY%20Entry%20criteria%2020120911%20Adopted.pdf
if you don’t qualify then no point to pursue. NO job is guaranteed in the future. If you are a self sponsored student, you will be at the bottom of the list in getting housemanship post. Without horsemanship, you can’t practise as a doctor. Never take huge loan to do medicine, you will never end up paying it.
hope sir can reply soon^^ur coorperating will be appreciated^^
Hello, sir, I am waiting for my SPM results and my ambition is to become a doctor. Its my passion and I am not forced by my parents nor interested to get the high salary and glory. Still then, I am still in dilemma, I may worry that when I finish my medicine study, I will not having any jobs, will that happen? I like the field of medicine and have the will to help others, should I continue my ambition?
No job is guaranteed in the future. If you have a passion for it after reading this blog, then why worry?
but my friend in AIMST ,she can enter after their sem1….is it possible for me?
It is up to the university
oo..ok thanks sir.May I know how much is the salary for the doctors nowadays?
Please read my post on “government doctors salary”
Dear Pagalavan Letchumanan, what are your thoughts about PLAB Part 1 and New Zealand?
Sitting for PLAB is of no use for us. Passing PLAB does not give you a job in UK. With the current immigration law, it is almost zero!
New Zealand is OK but need to pass their entrance exams.
To work in NZ without a ‘recognised degree’, there are is really only one way now::
Pass USMLE Part 1, AMC Part 1 or PLAB part 1 ….. AND THEN the NZREX exam
Your only other option without a NZ/Aus degree is if you have general registration with the GMC or Irish Medical Council.
thank you
thanks…
Hi Dr. I’m taking a-level now and going to graduate in June 2013. I really wish to take medicine but my family can’t afford me to study in uk or Australia. Can you give me some suggestion on which university I should apply for and where I should study? Thank you.
try Aimst, Monash, Newcastle, PMC. Before taking huge loan to do medicine, pls read all my post under For Future Doctors page
Hi Dr pagalavan.. Thanks for this very useful article.. I am in need for some serious advice from you.. Im planning to take dentistry as my career path.. But after reading this post, I really got confused and terrified as hell! Is malaysia having a surplus of dentists as well? Im really interested with this job.. (But not because of the salary)
At the moment, the situation for dentistry is not as bad as medicine.
hello doc.. i’m currently planning to further my study in medicine at Jordan University of Science and Technology (JUST). So if i can’t work in Malaysia, does JUST degree are recognized in other countries such as Singapore, Australia, New Zealand?
Nope
well at the moment, i am really into medicine.. like seriously! but i’m really afraid of the surplus thats goin to happen.. i’m just afraid that i can’t practice what i learn and i don’t really care about the salary.. but my result are quite excellent which is 11A+.. so would you recommend me to still pursue this study or are there any other complicated study that suits my result better?
Nothing is guaranteed in the future!
Hi faqirullah, looks like you have the passion in reading medicine. Go ahead as long as you are ready and sure of it.Again like what Dr Paga advise is not to do it for money but bcos of interest n passion for the sick n needy.
All the best!
Dear Sir , I really really really like really want to be an obstetrician
can you tell me how ? But I heard it ‘s really hard !
either local Master’s or MRCOG
Are you asking as a student or as a working doctor? If the former, you have not been reading or understanding this blog. If the later, paga has answered below.
Or rather, above.
Hello doctor, My name is Kjn
I scored Straight A’s in my spm 2012 examination. I got A plus for my bio,chm, and phy. My dream since young is to become a doctor. My father, was a well known oncologist in Malaysia. He passed away two years back. I have the same desire to become like him. Now, i am confused, i was was offered a place for matriculation in penang. But i strongly feel stpm is more to my advantage. Can I have your views please?